A lot of people commenting about this are saying that flattened primers are caused by excessive headspace, and they are correct. But no one has that I have read has taken the time to explain why. So here goes. When a centre fire cartridge is fired there are actually a lot of different things happening, all within a few thousandths of a second. It starts when the firing pin strikes the primer cup. It not only dimples the primer and ignites the primer compound, but pushes the cartridge forward in the chamber, as far as the headspace will allow it to go. When the priming compound explodes. It propels burning gasses through the flash hole to ignite the propellant powder. But it also propels the primer cup violently out the back of the primer pocket, slamming it into the bolt face. The more headspace there is, the farther the primer cup can travel and the more velocity it will achieve before it slams into the bolt face. This causes the flattening of the primer cup and the cupping or cratering seen around the firing pin indentation. When the propellant powder charge ignites, three things happen. First the cartridge casing tries to explode, but the strength of the chamber walls stops this from happening. Second and Third are the projectile being pushed through the barrel, and the cartridge casing trying to be violently expelled out the rear of the chamber. When the casing slams into the bolt face it violently re-seats the primer cup in the primer pocket, further flattening it. I hope you were able to follow all that. What you want to be concerned about is if there is evidence of the brass being extruded into the ejector and or extractor recesses of the bolt face. This does not happen when the casing is slammed into the bolt face upon ignition, it happens while the projectile is traveling through the barrel, if peak pressures exceed the bearing capacity of the cartridge head.
Hello David, I’m the guy that pushed thumbs down. Did it because I think I see a problem with part of your explanation. Figured I would point out my concern to allow you the opportunity to correct my error with a further explanation. Thanks in advance. Here we go, you say “It starts when the firing pin strikes the primer cup. It not only dimples the primer and ignites the primer compound, but pushes the cartridge forward in the chamber,...” It is the “pushes the cartridge forward” part that I’m unsure about. As I see it, when I place a properly sized cartridge in my bolt action rifle I generate a substantial amount of force pushing the cartridge into the chamber and then locking the bolt lugs. The force is more than adequate to force the shoulder of the cartridge against the shoulder of the chamber. Additionally, that force is greater than the force generated by the firing pin, add to that that much of the force generated by the firing pin is absorbed by the dimpling of the primer. All of this is based on the premise that the cartridge is properly sized to the chamber and that the definition of properly size means that the bolt, when closed, does not allow for a gap between the cartridge rim and the bolt face or the cartridge shoulder and the chamber shoulder, and that is not a given.
Very very helpful. Many of the reloading videos don't get into these signs and assume you already know. Illustrating the subtle differences was very good info!
One additional sign to watch for is the extrusion of the primer around the firing pin hole. A ridge around the primer indentation that protrudes from the flattened face of the primer is definitely a sign telling you to reduce your powder charge a bit. Thanks for the video!
Thanks for all the information, it was very informative. I have heard of all of these warning signs but it is nice to see it with your own eyes while it is being described. I will watch out for these now.
An excellent tutorial. I once got excessively hard bolt lift, flattened and cratered primers, and a blown primer with some Barnes X-Bullet loads years ago. It was then that I discovered that the first generation of the X-Bullet (the non-Triple Shock ones without the grooves cut into the shank) can't be safely loaded with the same maximum charge of powder as with conventional bullets. I backed off two grains, and everything was okay again.
Very good common sense video and a reasonable starting point for those new to reloading. The importance of having spotlessly clean, uniform brass can't be overstated. A case that is close to the overall maximum length can stretch causing difficult extraction without having excess pressure. Reloading is and artful skill, it's best to take baby steps. I'd never let anyone shoot my reloads in their rifle, they are safe in mine only. That's why we reload, to custom build a round to fit.
Thanks for the informative video, your kind and gentle manner and the info you gave us. I had some loads that I never really bothered trying to understand. I just looked at the max load in an old Speer book that I had for an Interarms 7x57mm that I've shot for years. Well, I can attest that powders do change. I mean, enough to make a toasty load from days gone by to something that is super excessive. I was using some old IMR 4350 in this thing and had actually worked it up to 50 grains. It was on the edge of "Too Hot". Eventually, I ran out of that powder and bought the new IMR 4350. Well, the newer powder, from the last 2 or 3 years with the same charge has my case heads coming apart. I've got one jammed in there right now that I will have to pour hot lead down the bore to create a plug so I can pull it out. Talk about excessive. I mean, I kept noticing the ring around the brass and how some were cracking along the incipit line you mentioned. I took some of the loads apart this morning, thinking maybe my measure was off. It wasn't. There was 50 grains in each that I disassembled. I was wondering why I was getting 3000 FPS for a 139 grain bullet, near what you'd get with a 280 Remington. Most of the other books show a charge of 48 as max. I'm backing them off to that charge. I'm done chasing the max velocity out of my guns. I'll take the accuracy over the speed any day. Thanks again
A stiff bolt lift is almost always a sign of there being a problem somewhere. I've never dealt with one so it always slips my mind. Under-pressure brass will eject just like normal brass from a bolt action, and probably all other manual action types. Very informative video, you can never be too careful.
Nice Video, but DON'T put bad cases "aside". You may accidentally grab it later and reload it. I flatten them with the tap of a hammer or damage them so they are obviously unusable.
That is how and why my dad taught me. He would crimp the case with pliers to make sure it wasn't used again and then would chuck it into the brass recycle can.
Lots of opinions in comments. I suggest those commentators who only load one or 2 cartridges be readers only. I found much of what you said correct. I have loaded 30-06, 25-06, 44 mag, 45 colt, 45 acp 38, 223 , and .22 hornet. The last seemingly being the softest case metal, and the case most likely to have issues. Soon I will be loading the 450 bushmaster. Thank you for your insight.
I just read this, but I have the same issue. When I use these primers, almost all of them flatten a bit, whereas Winchesters or something harder are just fine.
An excellent instructional. You've answered many of my lingering questions about excessive pressure and I thank you. One point though from a videographer's perspective, for better detail on small objects it would be a good idea to use a contrasting background color. A sheet of printer paper is all it would take. Not s criticism just a suggestion.
Here's a big attaboy from me, ammosmith! This was very informative, especially the loose primer pocket test. I'm reloading among other stuff the .35 Remington for my 2 Marlin 336s. Your info will help me make safe loads. Thanx a bunch
Keep a close eye on you headspacing with the round. The shoulder is non-existent on the round, and can easily be bumped back too much. The main issue you may have are misfires. The round will simply be pushed forward and the primer is not engaged. Even though it is a lever action round, neck sizing is the best thing you can do to help yourself out here. Try to do the minimal amount of resizing to the brass that you can to get them to work in the gun. I have had some guns that would not shoot certain brands of brass at all. My long gone contender would not shoot NEW Winchester (W-W) brass. My current 336, has a slightly better chamber, but does not like FL sized brass. I have my sizer turned up one whole turn, to minimize the shoulder contact.
Went to a local range a few weeks ago to try out my new Bushmaster carbine. In addition to numerous failures to eject, I noticed three loose primer cups out of the 40 rounds fired. Took it to a friend's place and shot 100 rounds of factory ammo, and had no issues. I'll not be going to that range again.
Another good tip is to use an unfolded paper clip with a bend on one end and run it inside fired cases. Should be smoothe and not catch. If it does you have case head separation
I had a stiff bolt lift too. Pressure is a strange animal. A cratered but not flattened primer is also a sign of pressure. Once you realize what your rifle does you can start to determine "what" and where the pressure is coming from.
The paper clip test is where you make a 'hook" and drag it over the inside of the case where the web is. If you 'feel' a dip there is area that is thinning and will eventually cause a separation. The paper clip allows you to inspect the area where you can't see.
You can also get pressure signs in your primers if using very fine grain size powders. There has been guys test this with known safe, even lighter loads but if a little bit of this fine powder washes into the primer pocket void through the touch hole, the added gas volume in the very confined space will create pressure signatures in the primer cup with an otherwise safe load. Don't dismiss pressure signs as that without close investigation though.
you use air gun pressures . a 700ftlb air rifle requires a regulated burst of sub 1000psi , m193 will go +3000fps from a burst of sub 3000psi . Why would you think you get +50,000psi pressures ?
@rifleshooter5 I see alot of match .308 that has flat primers. Almost all BHA is hotrodded and produces flat primers......no issues with loose pockets thou.
@trickykwoo2 They are one of several indicators. Flattened primers are a warning sign...two or more signs together means you're above SAAMI spec pressure
Very nice video, great quality and good safety advise for new reloaders. Have you noticed that most of the new Hornady ammunition is being loaded to hot. I am seeing once fired brass from Hornady with high presure signs on the primers. It seems that they are selling there ammo with "MAX" Fps as a good thing. Again, great presentation. Steve @ BXCustmAmmo.
You are wrong. Flattened primers are a sign of too much headspace, usually caused by a sizing die that is not adjusted properly. This is also what is causing your head separation, because your brass is being over worked by over sizing. It is having to stretch to fill your chamber every time it's fired. The firing pin is pushing the case forward, then as pressure builds the primer is extracted slightly. Then the case head stretches back to the bolt face and creates this top hat looking primer. Take one of your fired . 220 cases, back your resizing die out a tad, load it with the same load, and shoot it. Your flattened primers will go away. Unless you are getting a sticky bolt, ejector-extractor marks, or cratering around the firing pin, your not getting high pressure.
Good video for beginners in reloading! For some reason people that start reloading will not read a book but will listen to just about anybody with a press for advice. I have seen some unbelievable events at the rifle range. The only part I do not agree with is the case separation. Most of the time the case shown is a matter of reloading too many times and not high pressure.
The case looks fine. No signs of pressure, no cracked casings, just black carbon burning around the neck and a little past the shoulder. Would it mean I need more powder to seal the neck or less powder to not have enough back pressure? Recoil is that of a .223.
Thanks for the info. I'm reloading 9mm and couldn't find ANY primers anywhere, but finally was able to snatch up some small pistol in magnum. I just put a box together with 0.1gr less than the starting load (147gr FMJ & 3.3gr bullseye) and I'm assuming, hoping, praying my gun won't blow apart.
2:34 hey ammosmith! Thanks for all you’ve done and do for us. In regards to the two casings in which you describe the webbing, I noticed the extractor groove on the left case is elongated compared to the right case. Is this also a sign of higher pressures?
It could be like my case several years ago; I just had a little too much headspace. I got a set of stepped shell holders in .002" increments. Either try that or just a different brand of shell holder. Also, check to see if your shellholder has any gunk built up in it. If so, clean it and check it after a few dozen rounds.
No not really. It depends on the operating pressure and how well the case is constructed. Some brass will last many cycles and others will fizz out after just 5 loadings. I back the pressure off of mine to keep the brass from getting worn out. It also extends the life of the weapon as well.
Flattened primers alone are signs of excessive pressure. However, flattened primers that have backed out a couple hundredths of an inch are signs of not having enough pressure. But if you were the one who fired those rounds, you'd most likely be tipped off by the accuracy as well.
@miravox It's the hot gases igniting in the air. It's very comon with certain types of powder. Even low end loads can seem to boom as much as a maximum load.
One thing I had happen was SUPER high pressure due I think to a case that was too long and crimped the case into the bullet keeping it from being able to move into the BBL and raising pressures to a level I never want to see again. I had to use large channel locks and then a 2 Lb drilling hammer to open the bolt. the primer pocket was huge the primer was gone. I gotta say though it was an old shot out loose Mouser but it didn't hurt me.
I got a nasty surprise one summer. I was shhoting my 308 using WW748 powder. I developed it in February when it was cold. Well Winchester powders are very sensitive to teperature changes. The load was near max anyway. Well I sot a round and the bold froze. I blew out the primer and the case head flowed into the bbolt face. Last time I used 748 and switched to Hodgdon powders.
Wow you are running some very hot loads. Very well presented video and very on point. I am getting ready to toool up to reload and this was a wealth of info nobody else has talked about. If I may ask what is your traininjg? Also I only need a single stage reloader. Can't shoot like I used to due to current pollitical and economical conditions. I want to load but just cannot pick the press. Your opinion is valued. I like the Hornady classic the most but the kit is incomplete.
It is not required to back off 2 or 3 grains because of a flattened primer. On some cartriges that would be below the min starting charge. You should work up loads in increments of 1/2 grain or less and when you get to a flat primer drop back 1/2 grain.
Yes, a primer pocket will eventually wear out. You'll know this when the primer just seems to "fall" into the primer pocket. Bras can be used A LOT. But this depends on what caliber and how hot you're loading it. I have a lot of .308's that I've loaded 15 times and they are still going strong.
You don't use brass no more than 3 times if it's in good shape. Not multiple times over that. Using brass anything more then that start's to become unsafe practices.
@@Shanonmcnab576 that’s nonsense, if there’s no signs of failure why would you not use it, even running on the “higher” end of loads it’s possible to get several loads on brass. Especially premium brass like nosler, Lapua or ADG. Proper brass prep prolongs brass to many more than 3 firings. Clean,anneal, size without expander ball, expand with mandrel, trim load x10-15 times
ammosmith..you may want to mention one more thing that you may have left out. For me the most obvious pressure sign is a shiny mark on the case head. This results when excessive pressure causes the brass to flow into the ejector recess in the bolt face. When you get to this point STOP. Most likely culprit is that you've exceeded the safe limit with your powder.
is the crater around where the firing pin strikes still a sign of overpressure even if the primer still keeps most of it's composure? I've noticed this on my .45's. Also, all my rifles are savages. I think i've figured out how they brag about, "the definition of accuracy". they seem to have less freebore than other rifles, judging by the sugested c.o.a.l's in my manuals, the bullets would be jammed into the lands. Is there a general rule of thumb for the max pressure with different headspacings?
Another difference between .223 and 5.56 is in the primers the way I understand it a .223 round loaded in a 5.56 can sometimes discharge from the bolt sliding home when chambering a round due to more sensitive primers.
@ammosmith i dont have a tumbler so i use a vinegar solution for 10 mins then throw it in the washing machine for a rinse , not shiny like a tumbler with media but clean none the less
@rhikie24 The primer is one indicator but I use two indicators. Also if you're getting pressure signs with the Federal primer use the CCI. Federal primers are soft.
Why exactly does a bolt become sticky? Does the pressure over expand the cartridge so the bolt is force closed. Or is some charge being forced through the bolt sealing it somehow. I have heard stories of people using a hammer to reopen the bolt after it became sticky.
@ammosmith any indications for a single shot rifle? ive stayed about 2 grains below max on all my loads and thats where my rifle shoots most accuratley but my brass has rings around the outside of the case, not cracks just scratches, chamber polish?
ive never had any signs of insipient case seperation. the primer pockets get loose first, but with a lee collet die i get appox 10 reloads before i have any problems, i can fire 3-4 times before i have to re-trim, and i run on the hotter side of things ;)
in addition the primer at the right has a smaal crater like a ''vulcano'' this is usually related to a firing pin that is not lapped correctely to the firing pin hole and the primer start to creep into the opening on the side of the firing pin,, it ''can'' also be a beginning sign of too hig pressure or soft primers, this need to be determined in each individual case,,,
Ammosmith: My .270 Win handloads show none of the overpressure signs mentioned here. HOWEVER, they repeatedly blew the white, plastic diffusers off of my chrono at a distance of about four feet (immediately after I fired several rounds of factory ammo through it with only a little shake & shimmy). Whaddya think?
Your thicker primers may withstand the pressure but the case may be yielding and causeing the primer pockets to expand even though the primers look ok. The only good reason to use a mil spec primer is in an autoloader.
That is just one sign of excessive pressure. I wouldn't worry too much. If you are getting cratered primers or bright marks near the web of the case along with what you're already experiencing you should back off a bit on the charge.
primers are only a indicator ,but you can not see at a case and say thats high pressure, because a primer in a high pressure caliber wil look different then that of a low pressure caliber (same primers ) Head space ,full lenght sizing etc wil make flat primers. head seperations are beginning in the inside of the case ,you can detect them with a sharp hook inside the case wall , start low and pull up, neck size only when possible. A lee collet die is the best for the case life
peteralexben I have a question I have a 270 short mag I have done baught 2 different types of bullets from the store and the primer is falling out after I shoot would you why or any idea thank you
Hey Ammosmith, I know you are busy, but if you could answer this question I would really appreciate it. I have made some swaging dies of my own, but they give bullet weights that are irregular from load data. I assume I will have to make my own loads for these calibers. What I plan to do is load with one grain of powder, fire it, check the bore for obstruction, tap the bullet out, load up to 1/4 a grain more, repeat and keep doing this until I see pressure signs. Is there a better way?
one of the cases at the begining of the video has a dent on the side. is that from high preasure also? i have about 6 out of 100 that have that dent after firing do you know what causes that?
Good video! I would argue that flattened primers don’t necessarily mean that you’re over pressure in an unsafe way. Nearly all of the full power factory .357 Mag loads I use produce flattened primers. I load most of my handloads much lighter. Perhaps you’re only referring to bottleneck rifle cartridges?
@ammosmith Yeah, I was gonna say. I use winchester primers and even with light loads I still sometimes get flattened primers. Not FLAT, but flattening. I notice that with different brass, it will have higher likelihoods of flattening that others. I also have read online that winchester has pretty soft primers compared to cci's. Any opinions on the matter? These are small pistol in 9mm that I have issues with. But not with rifle calibers..
case head separation is not a pressure sign it is a sign that you are full length sizing your brass to much. if you bump the shoulder .03 less than your chamber you will never have a case head separation. excessive pressure is shown buy expansion of the base below where a case head separation occurs in the unsupported part of the brass.
I agree. Case head separation can ONLY be caused by a continued headspacing issues. Whether that is excessive headspacing within the firearm itself, or repeatedly bumping the shoulder back when full length resizing. High pressures can hasten the process, but can never cause the result.
Your chamber could be slightly different. I think my shell holders are RCBS. Another thing to check would be bullet seating depth into/from the lands. Are you running an AR?
i have a 357 and i had the problem with not bieng able to get some of the rounds out of the chambers that i loaded them into. when i shot them off they would be stuck in there until i forced them out. these where expensive loads that my father bought ." hollow pointed 357 mag rnds. r .p " they where brass jacketed lead bullets with a silver type cast. i sent a foto. any idea or was it maybe a buch of hot rounds.? my dad passed away this week so i cant ask him. thanks good video. mike.
Pressure can also go up very fast if you don't seat the bullet at the right depth. Not so much for rifle, but pistol 10-15 thousands deeper can send pressure very high. Best to follow the books exactly I stick to powder bullet manufacture list in the book never substitute anything.
Really good video. I have a question some times after shooting P17 30-06 my cases have a black smoky ring at the web of the case,do you any idea what this means? Do my cases have small cracks? Thanks.
I have been reloading 3 years and was unsure of the whole excessive pressure sign deal. Great video, now I know what to look for.
A lot of people commenting about this are saying that flattened primers are caused by excessive headspace, and they are correct. But no one has that I have read has taken the time to explain why. So here goes.
When a centre fire cartridge is fired there are actually a lot of different things happening, all within a few thousandths of a second. It starts when the firing pin strikes the primer cup. It not only dimples the primer and ignites the primer compound, but pushes the cartridge forward in the chamber, as far as the headspace will allow it to go. When the priming compound explodes. It propels burning gasses through the flash hole to ignite the propellant powder. But it also propels the primer cup violently out the back of the primer pocket, slamming it into the bolt face. The more headspace there is, the farther the primer cup can travel and the more velocity it will achieve before it slams into the bolt face. This causes the flattening of the primer cup and the cupping or cratering seen around the firing pin indentation. When the propellant powder charge ignites, three things happen. First the cartridge casing tries to explode, but the strength of the chamber walls stops this from happening. Second and Third are the projectile being pushed through the barrel, and the cartridge casing trying to be violently expelled out the rear of the chamber. When the casing slams into the bolt face it violently re-seats the primer cup in the primer pocket, further flattening it. I hope you were able to follow all that.
What you want to be concerned about is if there is evidence of the brass being extruded into the ejector and or extractor recesses of the bolt face. This does not happen when the casing is slammed into the bolt face upon ignition, it happens while the projectile is traveling through the barrel, if peak pressures exceed the bearing capacity of the cartridge head.
David Oakley Fantastic explanation!
Hello David, I’m the guy that pushed thumbs down. Did it because I think I see a problem with part of your explanation. Figured I would point out my concern to allow you the opportunity to correct my error with a further explanation. Thanks in advance. Here we go, you say “It starts when the firing pin strikes the primer cup. It not only dimples the primer and ignites the primer compound, but pushes the cartridge forward in the chamber,...” It is the “pushes the cartridge forward” part that I’m unsure about. As I see it, when I place a properly sized cartridge in my bolt action rifle I generate a substantial amount of force pushing the cartridge into the chamber and then locking the bolt lugs. The force is more than adequate to force the shoulder of the cartridge against the shoulder of the chamber. Additionally, that force is greater than the force generated by the firing pin, add to that that much of the force generated by the firing pin is absorbed by the dimpling of the primer. All of this is based on the premise that the cartridge is properly sized to the chamber and that the definition of properly size means that the bolt, when closed, does not allow for a gap between the cartridge rim and the bolt face or the cartridge shoulder and the chamber shoulder, and that is not a given.
Very very helpful. Many of the reloading videos don't get into these signs and assume you already know. Illustrating the subtle differences was very good info!
You know it's a good video when it's being recommended 14 years after upload
Thank you for another informative class in you academy of shooting safety and techniques! You are a great teacher!
Thank you for another informative class in your academy of shooting safety and techniques! You are a great teacher!
One additional sign to watch for is the extrusion of the primer around the firing pin hole. A ridge around the primer indentation that protrudes from the flattened face of the primer is definitely a sign telling you to reduce your powder charge a bit. Thanks for the video!
You're absolutely right. When the primer looks cratered it's a bad sign.
Flattened primers can also be caused by forcing primers into crimped cases.
Thanks for all the information, it was very informative. I have heard of all of these warning signs but it is nice to see it with your own eyes while it is being described. I will watch out for these now.
An excellent tutorial.
I once got excessively hard bolt lift, flattened and cratered primers, and a blown primer with some Barnes X-Bullet loads years ago.
It was then that I discovered that the first generation of the X-Bullet (the non-Triple Shock ones without the grooves cut into the shank) can't be safely loaded with the same maximum charge of powder as with conventional bullets.
I backed off two grains, and everything was okay again.
Thank you for providing signs of case failure when reloading. I have seen some of the signs in your examples but not all. Eye opening information! 😳
Very good and helpful tips here . Thank you for taking the time to make it 🙏🏽
Very useful information on pressure issues and what to look for. Thanks
I still love to learn more about the gun, I knew about the flat primer, but didn't know it actually made a flange! GOOD JOB, NICE VIDEO!
Very good common sense video and a reasonable starting point for those new to reloading. The importance of having spotlessly clean, uniform brass can't be overstated. A case that is close to the overall maximum length can stretch causing difficult extraction without having excess pressure. Reloading is and artful skill, it's best to take baby steps. I'd never let anyone shoot my reloads in their rifle, they are safe in mine only. That's why we reload, to custom build a round to fit.
Thanks for the informative video, your kind and gentle manner and the info you gave us. I had some loads that I never really bothered trying to understand. I just looked at the max load in an old Speer book that I had for an Interarms 7x57mm that I've shot for years. Well, I can attest that powders do change. I mean, enough to make a toasty load from days gone by to something that is super excessive. I was using some old IMR 4350 in this thing and had actually worked it up to 50 grains. It was on the edge of "Too Hot". Eventually, I ran out of that powder and bought the new IMR 4350. Well, the newer powder, from the last 2 or 3 years with the same charge has my case heads coming apart. I've got one jammed in there right now that I will have to pour hot lead down the bore to create a plug so I can pull it out. Talk about excessive. I mean, I kept noticing the ring around the brass and how some were cracking along the incipit line you mentioned. I took some of the loads apart this morning, thinking maybe my measure was off. It wasn't. There was 50 grains in each that I disassembled. I was wondering why I was getting 3000 FPS for a 139 grain bullet, near what you'd get with a 280 Remington. Most of the other books show a charge of 48 as max. I'm backing them off to that charge. I'm done chasing the max velocity out of my guns. I'll take the accuracy over the speed any day. Thanks again
A stiff bolt lift is almost always a sign of there being a problem somewhere. I've never dealt with one so it always slips my mind. Under-pressure brass will eject just like normal brass from a bolt action, and probably all other manual action types.
Very informative video, you can never be too careful.
Great video for beginners like myself. Thanks for taking time to make this.
Nice Video, but DON'T put bad cases "aside".
You may accidentally grab it later and reload it.
I flatten them with the tap of a hammer or damage them so they are obviously unusable.
That is how and why my dad taught me. He would crimp the case with pliers to make sure it wasn't used again and then would chuck it into the brass recycle can.
Lots of opinions in comments.
I suggest those commentators who only load one or 2 cartridges be readers only.
I found much of what you said correct.
I have loaded 30-06, 25-06, 44 mag, 45 colt, 45 acp 38, 223 , and .22 hornet. The last seemingly being the softest case metal, and the case most likely to have issues.
Soon I will be loading the 450 bushmaster.
Thank you for your insight.
I just read this, but I have the same issue. When I use these primers, almost all of them flatten a bit, whereas Winchesters or something harder are just fine.
An excellent instructional. You've answered many of my lingering questions about excessive pressure and I thank you. One point though from a videographer's perspective, for better detail on small objects it would be a good idea to use a contrasting background color. A sheet of printer paper is all it would take. Not s criticism just a suggestion.
Excellent presentation thank you. I learned a lot.
Saving video. Good info. I’ve been reloading almost a year now. I know picking 2020 to start reloading was a bad idea.
Excellent video. Very well done, sir.
Here's a big attaboy from me, ammosmith! This was very informative, especially the loose primer pocket test. I'm reloading among other stuff the .35 Remington for my 2 Marlin 336s. Your info will help me make safe loads. Thanx a bunch
Keep a close eye on you headspacing with the round. The shoulder is non-existent on the round, and can easily be bumped back too much. The main issue you may have are misfires. The round will simply be pushed forward and the primer is not engaged. Even though it is a lever action round, neck sizing is the best thing you can do to help yourself out here. Try to do the minimal amount of resizing to the brass that you can to get them to work in the gun.
I have had some guns that would not shoot certain brands of brass at all. My long gone contender would not shoot NEW Winchester (W-W) brass. My current 336, has a slightly better chamber, but does not like FL sized brass. I have my sizer turned up one whole turn, to minimize the shoulder contact.
Went to a local range a few weeks ago to try out my new Bushmaster carbine. In addition to numerous failures to eject, I noticed three loose primer cups out of the 40 rounds fired. Took it to a friend's place and shot 100 rounds of factory ammo, and had no issues. I'll not be going to that range again.
Another good tip is to use an unfolded paper clip with a bend on one end and run it inside fired cases. Should be smoothe and not catch. If it does you have case head separation
Another good one.
Yes. The dent will iron out partially in resizing and when it's fored it will fore form out all together.
Great video l will note these points down being new to reloading l need a person like u that knows what they are doing thanks
Thanks for the lesson.
I had a stiff bolt lift too. Pressure is a strange animal. A cratered but not flattened primer is also a sign of pressure. Once you realize what your rifle does you can start to determine "what" and where the pressure is coming from.
New to reloading and this was AWESOME INFO
The paper clip test is where you make a 'hook" and drag it over the inside of the case where the web is. If you 'feel' a dip there is area that is thinning and will eventually cause a separation. The paper clip allows you to inspect the area where you can't see.
A good quick review. Thank you.
Excellent video! Thanks
You can also get pressure signs in your primers if using very fine grain size powders. There has been guys test this with known safe, even lighter loads but if a little bit of this fine powder washes into the primer pocket void through the touch hole, the added gas volume in the very confined space will create pressure signatures in the primer cup with an otherwise safe load. Don't dismiss pressure signs as that without close investigation though.
It usually happens when the case over expands and seizes the bolt. In extreme cases it can crack the locking lugs.
you use air gun pressures . a 700ftlb air rifle requires a regulated burst of sub 1000psi , m193 will go +3000fps from a burst of sub 3000psi .
Why would you think you get +50,000psi pressures ?
Excellent video!
@rifleshooter5 I see alot of match .308 that has flat primers. Almost all BHA is hotrodded and produces flat primers......no issues with loose pockets thou.
@trickykwoo2 They are one of several indicators. Flattened primers are a warning sign...two or more signs together means you're above SAAMI spec pressure
Very nice video, great quality and good safety advise for new reloaders. Have you noticed that most of the new Hornady ammunition is being loaded to hot. I am seeing once fired brass from Hornady with high presure signs on the primers. It seems that they are selling there ammo with "MAX" Fps as a good thing. Again, great presentation.
Steve @ BXCustmAmmo.
Ammosmith Thanks for sharing your experience.
You are wrong. Flattened primers are a sign of too much headspace, usually caused by a sizing die that is not adjusted properly. This is also what is causing your head separation, because your brass is being over worked by over sizing. It is having to stretch to fill your chamber every time it's fired. The firing pin is pushing the case forward, then as pressure builds the primer is extracted slightly. Then the case head stretches back to the bolt face and creates this top hat looking primer. Take one of your fired . 220 cases, back your resizing die out a tad, load it with the same load, and shoot it. Your flattened primers will go away. Unless you are getting a sticky bolt, ejector-extractor marks, or cratering around the firing pin, your not getting high pressure.
Thats exactly what my rifle was doing so thank you very much for the info....Makes sense.
very nice job. thanks for the info
Good video for beginners in reloading! For some reason people that start reloading will not read a book but will listen to just about anybody with a press for advice. I have seen some unbelievable events at the rifle range. The only part I do not agree with is the case separation. Most of the time the case shown is a matter of reloading too many times and not high pressure.
The case looks fine. No signs of pressure, no cracked casings, just black carbon burning around the neck and a little past the shoulder. Would it mean I need more powder to seal the neck or less powder to not have enough back pressure? Recoil is that of a .223.
Thanks for the info. I'm reloading 9mm and couldn't find ANY primers anywhere, but finally was able to snatch up some small pistol in magnum. I just put a box together with 0.1gr less than the starting load (147gr FMJ & 3.3gr bullseye) and I'm assuming, hoping, praying my gun won't blow apart.
2:34 hey ammosmith! Thanks for all you’ve done and do for us. In regards to the two casings in which you describe the webbing, I noticed the extractor groove on the left case is elongated compared to the right case. Is this also a sign of higher pressures?
It could be like my case several years ago; I just had a little too much headspace. I got a set of stepped shell holders in .002" increments. Either try that or just a different brand of shell holder. Also, check to see if your shellholder has any gunk built up in it. If so, clean it and check it after a few dozen rounds.
Increase the charge by .5grs at a time. Once you start to see signs of pressure back off about.5 grs and you have your maximum load.
No not really. It depends on the operating pressure and how well the case is constructed. Some brass will last many cycles and others will fizz out after just 5 loadings. I back the pressure off of mine to keep the brass from getting worn out. It also extends the life of the weapon as well.
Flattened primers alone are signs of excessive pressure. However, flattened primers that have backed out a couple hundredths of an inch are signs of not having enough pressure. But if you were the one who fired those rounds, you'd most likely be tipped off by the accuracy as well.
Great video, thanks for the pointers
@miravox It's the hot gases igniting in the air. It's very comon with certain types of powder. Even low end loads can seem to boom as much as a maximum load.
Thanks for the great video. Amazingly informative.
Very good info. Thanks
One thing I had happen was SUPER high pressure due I think to a case that was too long and crimped the case into the bullet keeping it from being able to move into the BBL and raising pressures to a level I never want to see again. I had to use large channel locks and then a 2 Lb drilling hammer to open the bolt. the primer pocket was huge the primer was gone. I gotta say though it was an old shot out loose Mouser but it didn't hurt me.
That can happen. Everything about a cartridge from the primer choice, powder charge etc affects pressure.
I got a nasty surprise one summer. I was shhoting my 308 using WW748 powder. I developed it in February when it was cold. Well Winchester powders are very sensitive to teperature changes. The load was near max anyway. Well I sot a round and the bold froze. I blew out the primer and the case head flowed into the bbolt face. Last time I used 748 and switched to Hodgdon powders.
Wow you are running some very hot loads. Very well presented video and very on point. I am getting ready to toool up to reload and this was a wealth of info nobody else has talked about. If I may ask what is your traininjg?
Also I only need a single stage reloader. Can't shoot like I used to due to current pollitical and economical conditions.
I want to load but just cannot pick the press. Your opinion is valued. I like the Hornady classic the most but the kit is incomplete.
It is not required to back off 2 or 3 grains because of a flattened primer. On some cartriges that would be below the min starting charge. You should work up loads in increments of 1/2 grain or less and when you get to a flat primer drop back 1/2 grain.
Yes, a primer pocket will eventually wear out. You'll know this when the primer just seems to "fall" into the primer pocket.
Bras can be used A LOT. But this depends on what caliber and how hot you're loading it. I have a lot of .308's that I've loaded 15 times and they are still going strong.
You don't use brass no more than 3 times if it's in good shape. Not multiple times over that. Using brass anything more then that start's to become unsafe practices.
@@Shanonmcnab576 that’s nonsense, if there’s no signs of failure why would you not use it, even running on the “higher” end of loads it’s possible to get several loads on brass. Especially premium brass like nosler, Lapua or ADG. Proper brass prep prolongs brass to many more than 3 firings. Clean,anneal, size without expander ball, expand with mandrel, trim load x10-15 times
ammosmith..you may want to mention one more thing that you may have left out. For me the most obvious pressure sign is a shiny mark on the case head. This results when excessive pressure causes the brass to flow into the ejector recess in the bolt face. When you get to this point STOP. Most likely culprit is that you've exceeded the safe limit with your powder.
Thank you very informative.
really informative thank you for taking the time to make this vid.
is the crater around where the firing pin strikes still a sign of overpressure even if the primer still keeps most of it's composure? I've noticed this on my .45's. Also, all my rifles are savages. I think i've figured out how they brag about, "the definition of accuracy". they seem to have less freebore than other rifles, judging by the sugested c.o.a.l's in my manuals, the bullets would be jammed into the lands. Is there a general rule of thumb for the max pressure with different headspacings?
@rifleshooter5 They should be fine. Just watch out for oversized primer pockets.
Another difference between .223 and 5.56 is in the primers the way I understand it a .223 round loaded in a 5.56 can sometimes discharge from the bolt sliding home when chambering a round due to more sensitive primers.
@ammosmith i dont have a tumbler so i use a vinegar solution for 10 mins then throw it in the washing machine for a rinse , not shiny like a tumbler with media but clean none the less
@rhikie24 The primer is one indicator but I use two indicators. Also if you're getting pressure signs with the Federal primer use the CCI. Federal primers are soft.
Why exactly does a bolt become sticky? Does the pressure over expand the cartridge so the bolt is force closed. Or is some charge being forced through the bolt sealing it somehow. I have heard stories of people using a hammer to reopen the bolt after it became sticky.
@ammosmith any indications for a single shot rifle? ive stayed about 2 grains below max on all my loads and thats where my rifle shoots most accuratley but my brass has rings around the outside of the case, not cracks just scratches, chamber polish?
ive never had any signs of insipient case seperation. the primer pockets get loose first, but with a lee collet die i get appox 10 reloads before i have any problems, i can fire 3-4 times before i have to re-trim, and i run on the hotter side of things ;)
yes. The case isn't expanding enough to seal the chamber. Are there any cracks in the case or any primers being punctured?
in addition the primer at the right has a smaal crater like a ''vulcano'' this is usually related to a firing pin that is not lapped correctely to the firing pin hole and the primer start to creep into the opening on the side of the firing pin,, it ''can'' also be a beginning sign of too hig pressure or soft primers, this need to be determined in each individual case,,,
Good video on pressure! :)
Good info, thanks for taking the time.
Ammosmith: My .270 Win handloads show none of the overpressure signs mentioned here. HOWEVER, they repeatedly blew the white, plastic diffusers off of my chrono at a distance of about four feet (immediately after I fired several rounds of factory ammo through it with only a little shake & shimmy). Whaddya think?
Your thicker primers may withstand the pressure but the case may be yielding and causeing the primer pockets to expand even though the primers look ok. The only good reason to use a mil spec primer is in an autoloader.
That is just one sign of excessive pressure. I wouldn't worry too much. If you are getting cratered primers or bright marks near the web of the case along with what you're already experiencing you should back off a bit on the charge.
Excellent. Thanks for posting.
Good info. Thanks for sharing this.
@xacharon No. What I did puts far less stress on the primer than the cartridge being battered in a semi automatic.
Going to watch all of these. Thank you
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primers are only a indicator ,but you can not see at a case and say thats high pressure, because a primer in a high pressure caliber wil look different then that of a low pressure caliber (same primers ) Head space ,full lenght sizing etc wil make flat primers. head seperations are beginning in the inside of the case ,you can detect them with a sharp hook inside the case wall , start low and pull up, neck size only when possible. A lee collet die is the best for the case life
peteralexben I have a question I have a 270 short mag I have done baught 2 different types of bullets from the store and the primer is falling out after I shoot would you why or any idea thank you
Hey Ammosmith, I know you are busy, but if you could answer this question I would really appreciate it. I have made some swaging dies of my own, but they give bullet weights that are irregular from load data. I assume I will have to make my own loads for these calibers.
What I plan to do is load with one grain of powder, fire it, check the bore for obstruction, tap the bullet out, load up to 1/4 a grain more, repeat and keep doing this until I see pressure signs. Is there a better way?
What does insipid case separation look like in a belted magnum?
Good informative vid. Thanks.
one of the cases at the begining of the video has a dent on the side. is that from high preasure also? i have about 6 out of 100 that have that dent after firing do you know what causes that?
Good video! I would argue that flattened primers don’t necessarily mean that you’re over pressure in an unsafe way. Nearly all of the full power factory .357 Mag loads I use produce flattened primers. I load most of my handloads much lighter. Perhaps you’re only referring to bottleneck rifle cartridges?
They are just one indicator. Bright marks on the head, the web of the case and difficult extraction are all indicators.
being brass displays work hardening properties should you anneal your brass before reloading
@ammosmith Yeah, I was gonna say. I use winchester primers and even with light loads I still sometimes get flattened primers. Not FLAT, but flattening. I notice that with different brass, it will have higher likelihoods of flattening that others. I also have read online that winchester has pretty soft primers compared to cci's. Any opinions on the matter? These are small pistol in 9mm that I have issues with. But not with rifle calibers..
case head separation is not a pressure sign it is a sign that you are full length sizing your brass to much. if you bump the shoulder .03 less than your chamber you will never have a case head separation. excessive pressure is shown buy expansion of the base below where a case head separation occurs in the unsupported part of the brass.
I agree. Case head separation can ONLY be caused by a continued headspacing issues. Whether that is excessive headspacing within the firearm itself, or repeatedly bumping the shoulder back when full length resizing. High pressures can hasten the process, but can never cause the result.
Your chamber could be slightly different. I think my shell holders are RCBS. Another thing to check would be bullet seating depth into/from the lands. Are you running an AR?
Thank you sir. Helped me out a lot!
i have a 357 and i had the problem with not bieng able to get some of the rounds out of the chambers that i loaded them into. when i shot them off they would be stuck in there until i forced them out. these where expensive loads that my father bought ." hollow pointed 357 mag rnds. r .p " they where brass jacketed lead bullets with a silver type cast. i sent a foto. any idea or was it maybe a buch of hot rounds.? my dad passed away this week so i cant ask him. thanks good video. mike.
Every factory primer I've ever shot looked like the one on the left. The one on the right looks under pressured.
Pressure can also go up very fast if you don't seat the bullet at the right depth. Not so much for rifle, but pistol 10-15 thousands deeper can send pressure very high. Best to follow the books exactly I stick to powder bullet manufacture list in the book never substitute anything.
Especially with cartridges like 9mm.
Really good video. I have a question some times after shooting P17 30-06 my cases have a black smoky ring at the web of the case,do you any idea what this means? Do my cases have small cracks? Thanks.