@@bramgroothedde You're very kind! Thanks Bram! I do have a new KS planned - but not until early next year. Art is starting now. It is based on a different comic with different art (ahem) - and I'll be announcing it soon! :-) Subscribe to the offthepagegames.com newsletter to stay informed!
I remember how much the gang tore the game art apart during an episode of crowd surfing. I always liked the art. Can't wait to try it out when it arrives
It’s weird to me that the art style seems so divisive. I Looooove it! The art design and components look incredible. In the end, I think the game is a bit too complicated for me, but as someone who has never heard of this series, I’ll definitely be checking these books out.
I've noticed that Mike is really the only Dice Tower reviewer (aside from Zee occasionally) who appreciates more interesting and stylized "arty" art. I also appreciate it, and it is sorely lacking in the board game world, but that's been improving over the past few years. Some people (especially Tom) really do not seem to understand art that is not very clean and straightforward looking, which usually equates to boring and unoriginal. Even little touches in this game like the scribbly style of the red colouring on the movement track, it's such a breath of fresh air and makes the game look different. I get really tired of the same old clean black lines and boring solid colours and graphic art used in so many games, or that style of art you see in so many euro games that was charming 20 years ago but now is just clearly terrible compared to what's available.
I’m pretty selective on Kickstarter but the engaging campaign by Jay Cormier got me to read the comics, got sucked into the theme and gameplay, and I’ve been championing the game since. Very much looking forward to my copy (should arrive this week).
Jay Cormier (designer and owner of Off The Page) and Sen-Foong Lim are proven game designers, so it's not surprising they would release a great game that expands the genre of hidden movement.
I own the entire series of the graphic novels and they are great. I am looking forward to receive my Kickstarter version. I totally on board with the theme and the graphic design.
Roy, you killed the weight loss... that's inspiring! It's also a little funny, and this is not a dis, that your cool tshirts are starting to fall off of you in the videos lol.
Great video. Audio seemed off, though. Roy's mic was had much higher gain than the other three. Also seemed like Chris, Tom and Mike's audio was being captured by a different mic in the room, which seemed to also be picking up the table taps.
Usually I can tell why an art style may be controversial, but this looks so normal to me. Neither spectacularly cool nor hideous. I guess that means I'm either missing something, or I'm very hip. I'm going for the latter.
This sounded to me as a complicated version of Specter Ops. Just like Specter Ops the hidden player has a character with a power, they have to go to specific spots on the board (which the rogie players knows the whereabouts from the start) and there is a round limit. Great video, thanks for the review.
I really like your 4 Squares Review. I'm never sure how much weight to give a single-player review of a game...maybe they were having a bad day, maybe this isn't a genre the reviewer enjoys, or the reverse, maybe they overrate games of a certain type. But when I see a review of four people...giving pros and cons...maybe not agreeing on several points...that gives me more information to work with. If I see four people really criticizing a game...that means I would REALLY have to find something special about the game to ignore their concerns about the game...and if they all use language that reinforces my views...I know I feel a lot safer about making that new game purchase.
I get the same feeling from Mind Mgmt as I did from Wayward: I really like the comics, and I'm very pleasantly surprised that a board game adaptation even got made. But the reviews I've seen... really make me want to play before I buy. P.S. Stop staring at me, Roy! XD
Mike is consistently the only person of this group (aside from Zee who isn't in this video) who appreciates more interesting art that doesn't stick to the typical board game clichés. I always know immediately when Mike will like the art and Tom won't. Tom often likes really vanilla and quite frankly boring art, and he doesn't seem to understand when it is more abstract or "arty". I know art is subjective, but I'm comfortable saying that Tom has generally poor taste in art. What Tom knows it graphic art and iconography; he knows how art works functionally well in board games. I really appreciate when games have an interesting and distinct art style like this game, which is missing big time in this hobby, but has really improved over the past 5 years. It's consistently flabbergasting to me how poor the art in board games is, particularly euros.
Not to pick on your comment, but I agree with the dice towers comment that you know art is subjective, but Tom has poor taste in art is ironic. Keep in mind Mike was the only person to like the art on the panel. I don’t really like the art, but that does not make my opinion wrong or right, just an opinion. Just remember art is in the eye of the beholder.
@@Therisktaker3 I'm aware of that, I said it myself. I made it clear I was just giving my own opinion. It isn't a fact, I just personally believe that Tom's taste in art is not great, based on all of the Dice Tower content I've ever watched.
@@thedicetower No, not at all. I made clear that nobody is right or wrong in any objective way, but that in my opinion, based on all the Dice Tower content I've watched, Tom tends to always have the worst taste in art. That's just my opinion, and nothing more. There is nothing ironic or contradictory about that.
The art is kind of neither here or there for me. Not ugly, but not great either. I like hidden movement games but I will refuse to play one if some kind of timer limit isn't imposed on both sides. Specter Ops is my current favourite and man do you need to induce a time limit there. I'm more looking forward to see if Sniper Elite fits my bill for a smoother, lighter game than Specter Ops, not sure if this one is grabbing me especially as I know nothing about the comic (didn't know it existed, hell I didn't even know this game existed until you guys mentioned it) and the lack of any thematic connection is going to hurt me.
Looks amazing. My local game cafe in Zephyrhills, FL just got it and I can't wait to give it a try. How does adding the modules work since they get opened after a game is completed? Does it lead to a leader runaway from game to game since it makes the winner more powerful? Or do people alternate which side they play so that if I win this game I'll make you stronger the next? Is it mostly effective when you play the game with the same group and you don't use modules when playing with new people?
It's actually the opposite of what you said! The LOSER of the game gets to open a package - making them more powerful! :-) That's why it's called the SHIFT System as it shifts the balance back and forth. It definitely is more effective when playing with the same group as the learning curve would get higher for new people with each new package opened! The back of the rule book can track up to 4 different groups of playing for you!!
It is essentially a big box game and a legacy game all in one. Each game will be slightly different, and when you're done you can mix and match the modules to create custom games. I won't do the math but there are probably thousands of configurations with the available modules. It is all very well done. The component quality is very high, and there is a deluxe model it is even better if you really like blinged out games.
Tom's comment about time is absolutely right. It is a puzzle and given enough time the agents will always win. You can literally think through every possibility and pinpoint exactly what's going on, but playing that way would be unfun for everyone. I would definitely agree that players should recognize that and play at a reasonable speed. That being said the puzzle is very complicated and very engaging, and with the shift system it's constantly evolving as well it never gets stale. There are so many interesting things going on. If you like Japanese math puzzles I highly suspect you will enjoy this game. They are also working to develop an app for it so that you can play it fully cooperative. The app will take on the role of the recruiter and players will cooperatively try to beat the game. With the app the game can actually be played solo.
Do we know when this game will be on retail in the USA? I've had folks talk like it is out already, however, I've checked 10 local game stores and no luck yet. Thanks!
The art is interesting and works for the game. I'm not a fan of it, but it fits for this game perfectly. My opinion of the game after watching the video is that I would still prefer to play Fury of Dracula over this, even with the unique mechanics of this game. But it is good to see unique mechanics coming out, like this and Destinies. Hopefully we will see more unique mechanics in the future.
Letters from Whitechapel remains the best hidden movement game, it still is the more deductive and strategic game of the genre. Whitehall Mystery, using the same mechanisms works different, it feels more like a chase while Whitechapel feels more like an investigation.
I am very glad to see the positive reviews for the gameplay, I am a HUGE fan of the comic and backed the game immediately, when I saw Matt Kindt was involved and making original comic content for it. For me, that alone was worth price of admission, though Jay ran a great fun campaign too and got me hooked on Kindt more than I was. He has a fan base, is a best selling author, and he and his family do their own watercolors for many of his books, though some he just writes. the watercolor style is pretty amazing and different IMHO, I love it. I even backed it at a level to get an original watercolor by the artist. safe to say i don't HATE it. so i have to say , I think the way you discussed the art was extremely disrespectful to Matt, his fans, and made you look very basic, even though I can see why some people may not prefer his style. Do you read non-mainstream superhero books much? I am frankly shocked you enjoyed the comic, which I agree is amazing, but consider it highly subversive and philosophical , not just a fun mystery romp. You didn't have to say you HATED IT, emphatically, upfront, and repeatedly. we get it, you dislike his art. You do know the author and the artist are the same person, AND highly involved in production of the game (not just licensed IP)? Did you notice it was watercolor or even admire the craft at all? Did you not find the presentation as a whole amazing, and that is carried over into the boardgame production, including subversive liner notes and hidden messages, and that was the artist too? You can be a critic without being so rude. Ultimately you seem to really enjoy the game, but made this review very negative in tone, bummer. /wave Jay and Matt, can't wait for my copy to arrive.
Tom, this is a good review, but for me it was difficult to watch your constantly moving the "sideboard" and cards in and out of focus during the rules explanation.
Matt Kindt has a divisive style, but how refreshing it is to have this "indie comics" look in a board game, it's so different from everything that is done usually! I can agree that it works better in the comics (that is just... outsdanding, including on the graphic side, really, Kindt is a sequentiality master), and the character tokens don't convince me totally, but I really appreciate the involvement of the artist and the audacity of the approach :-)
I like Kindt's art, so I think the game looks fantastic. But, in addition, the game just gets points for not looking like every other game on the market. It feels like there's about 3 styles that board games are made in anymore. I'm not saying that this more generic art style in board games is bad, but it's certainly become bland.
This game has zero table presence IMO. The water colour cards only bother me a little. That board though, urgh. When I initially saw that board, I literally made a face. If you can look past that, it sounds like a really fun hidden movement game. It's such a shame. I don't think I'll be getting this one, and yet I also think I'll be missing out.
@@eVanDieselIt's subjective. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and that's one the ugliest comics I've seen. The Einsner is more for writing than art, AFAIK, but you can still like it while I find it as bad as the original Ascension art.
Thank you gents for the review! Awesome to hear all your thoughts and opinions!
@@bramgroothedde You're very kind! Thanks Bram! I do have a new KS planned - but not until early next year. Art is starting now. It is based on a different comic with different art (ahem) - and I'll be announcing it soon! :-) Subscribe to the offthepagegames.com newsletter to stay informed!
I remember how much the gang tore the game art apart during an episode of crowd surfing. I always liked the art. Can't wait to try it out when it arrives
The art is so divisive that I 20% hate it and 80% love it. I'll fight me over it. Great review guys; I wasn't interested before but I am now!
All 4 of you gave the seal of approval. Quite consistent! Game goes on my wishlist.
I think this is one of finest looking boards I've seen. I love the art in this game so much
The art is gorgeous! It looks like a comic!
The old bait and switch, sending every reviewer the superdeluxe version, while the retail version has half the production quality
"Iconoclastic, is that the right word?" Turns to Tom
Come on Mike you know better than that
Tom can't even say "versus" correctly.
Apparently Mike is against religious art in worship situations 😄
So I‘m gonna guess… the word Mike was looking for is „idiosyncratic“?
It’s weird to me that the art style seems so divisive. I Looooove it! The art design and components look incredible. In the end, I think the game is a bit too complicated for me, but as someone who has never heard of this series, I’ll definitely be checking these books out.
It's weird to me that anyone likes the art.
@@synnical77 Ha. Well. Art is subjective.
I've noticed that Mike is really the only Dice Tower reviewer (aside from Zee occasionally) who appreciates more interesting and stylized "arty" art. I also appreciate it, and it is sorely lacking in the board game world, but that's been improving over the past few years. Some people (especially Tom) really do not seem to understand art that is not very clean and straightforward looking, which usually equates to boring and unoriginal. Even little touches in this game like the scribbly style of the red colouring on the movement track, it's such a breath of fresh air and makes the game look different. I get really tired of the same old clean black lines and boring solid colours and graphic art used in so many games, or that style of art you see in so many euro games that was charming 20 years ago but now is just clearly terrible compared to what's available.
I’m pretty selective on Kickstarter but the engaging campaign by Jay Cormier got me to read the comics, got sucked into the theme and gameplay, and I’ve been championing the game since. Very much looking forward to my copy (should arrive this week).
Jay Cormier (designer and owner of Off The Page) and Sen-Foong Lim are proven game designers, so it's not surprising they would release a great game that expands the genre of hidden movement.
You're too kind!! Thank you!
Was interested in Chris' final comments. I am not a fan of hidden movement either but this one really stokes my interest
"I'm going to keep that in mind" - I see what you did there Mike
I own the entire series of the graphic novels and they are great. I am looking forward to receive my Kickstarter version. I totally on board with the theme and the graphic design.
I live the art. I love the comic. I love the game!
Great review....Really loving these 4 square reviews a lot.
Glad I backed this one! And whoa I have not seen Roy on videos for a while and he's lost a lot of weight--great job!
I am very intrigued by this game.
Looks so great. Love the art style, like a comic.
love the art too, I think it inspires imagination and feels less intimidating to get on the table too.
Jay did a lot effort on this game!!! This game is really great!
I love the comic so much.
Ahh I want this game! This looks so fun and cool!!
Well I pre-ordered on Amazon! Can’t wait to play it
I don't like how board looks very much, but I LOVE design of those cards
Its as if Philip K Dick designed Scotland Yard
It's interesting to see how much more comfortable Mike and Tom seem on front of the camera than Chris and Roy.
Roy, you killed the weight loss... that's inspiring! It's also a little funny, and this is not a dis, that your cool tshirts are starting to fall off of you in the videos lol.
A lot of component talk for the deluxe edition while not mentioning it is the deluxe edition.
Great video. Audio seemed off, though. Roy's mic was had much higher gain than the other three. Also seemed like Chris, Tom and Mike's audio was being captured by a different mic in the room, which seemed to also be picking up the table taps.
Any chance Mr. Dilisio will be doing a solo review of the game? I'm intrigued that it's a hidden movement game that can be played by just one player.
The single player app isn’t finalized as of yet. I’m very much looking forward trying it once they get it finished.
Usually I can tell why an art style may be controversial, but this looks so normal to me. Neither spectacularly cool nor hideous. I guess that means I'm either missing something, or I'm very hip. I'm going for the latter.
One more vote for updating your tv! :D love you guys, though four squares needs more Zee in it.
This sounded to me as a complicated version of Specter Ops. Just like Specter Ops the hidden player has a character with a power, they have to go to specific spots on the board (which the rogie players knows the whereabouts from the start) and there is a round limit. Great video, thanks for the review.
I really like your 4 Squares Review. I'm never sure how much weight to give a single-player review of a game...maybe they were having a bad day, maybe this isn't a genre the reviewer enjoys, or the reverse, maybe they overrate games of a certain type. But when I see a review of four people...giving pros and cons...maybe not agreeing on several points...that gives me more information to work with. If I see four people really criticizing a game...that means I would REALLY have to find something special about the game to ignore their concerns about the game...and if they all use language that reinforces my views...I know I feel a lot safer about making that new game purchase.
As kids, we loved Clue: The Great Museum Caper.
Top ten hidden movement games video is coming?
I get the same feeling from Mind Mgmt as I did from Wayward: I really like the comics, and I'm very pleasantly surprised that a board game adaptation even got made. But the reviews I've seen... really make me want to play before I buy.
P.S. Stop staring at me, Roy! XD
Yes, I see that all the time.
Yeah I was thinking about making a "creepy Roy" comment as well
Mike is consistently the only person of this group (aside from Zee who isn't in this video) who appreciates more interesting art that doesn't stick to the typical board game clichés. I always know immediately when Mike will like the art and Tom won't. Tom often likes really vanilla and quite frankly boring art, and he doesn't seem to understand when it is more abstract or "arty". I know art is subjective, but I'm comfortable saying that Tom has generally poor taste in art. What Tom knows it graphic art and iconography; he knows how art works functionally well in board games. I really appreciate when games have an interesting and distinct art style like this game, which is missing big time in this hobby, but has really improved over the past 5 years. It's consistently flabbergasting to me how poor the art in board games is, particularly euros.
"I know art is subjective, but I'm comfortable saying that Tom has generally poor taste in art. " - isn't this the very definition of irony?
Not to pick on your comment, but I agree with the dice towers comment that you know art is subjective, but Tom has poor taste in art is ironic. Keep in mind Mike was the only person to like the art on the panel. I don’t really like the art, but that does not make my opinion wrong or right, just an opinion. Just remember art is in the eye of the beholder.
@@Therisktaker3 I'm aware of that, I said it myself. I made it clear I was just giving my own opinion. It isn't a fact, I just personally believe that Tom's taste in art is not great, based on all of the Dice Tower content I've ever watched.
@@thedicetower No, not at all. I made clear that nobody is right or wrong in any objective way, but that in my opinion, based on all the Dice Tower content I've watched, Tom tends to always have the worst taste in art. That's just my opinion, and nothing more. There is nothing ironic or contradictory about that.
Sounds like Tom forgot to turn his mic on.
The art is kind of neither here or there for me. Not ugly, but not great either. I like hidden movement games but I will refuse to play one if some kind of timer limit isn't imposed on both sides. Specter Ops is my current favourite and man do you need to induce a time limit there. I'm more looking forward to see if Sniper Elite fits my bill for a smoother, lighter game than Specter Ops, not sure if this one is grabbing me especially as I know nothing about the comic (didn't know it existed, hell I didn't even know this game existed until you guys mentioned it) and the lack of any thematic connection is going to hurt me.
Looks amazing. My local game cafe in Zephyrhills, FL just got it and I can't wait to give it a try. How does adding the modules work since they get opened after a game is completed? Does it lead to a leader runaway from game to game since it makes the winner more powerful? Or do people alternate which side they play so that if I win this game I'll make you stronger the next? Is it mostly effective when you play the game with the same group and you don't use modules when playing with new people?
It's actually the opposite of what you said! The LOSER of the game gets to open a package - making them more powerful! :-) That's why it's called the SHIFT System as it shifts the balance back and forth. It definitely is more effective when playing with the same group as the learning curve would get higher for new people with each new package opened! The back of the rule book can track up to 4 different groups of playing for you!!
You should do the 4 Squares as premieres.
I want to get a copy of this, but I 100% missed this Kickstarter. Will you be present at GenCon this year, Off The Page Games?
I live in Canada and don't plan on coming to the US until next year unfortunately. Check with your friendly local game store though!!
Team Mike re: the game’s art.
is this game ever going to be reprinted? i want to get on amazon
This is a phenomenal game!
It is essentially a big box game and a legacy game all in one. Each game will be slightly different, and when you're done you can mix and match the modules to create custom games. I won't do the math but there are probably thousands of configurations with the available modules. It is all very well done. The component quality is very high, and there is a deluxe model it is even better if you really like blinged out games.
Tom's comment about time is absolutely right. It is a puzzle and given enough time the agents will always win. You can literally think through every possibility and pinpoint exactly what's going on, but playing that way would be unfun for everyone. I would definitely agree that players should recognize that and play at a reasonable speed. That being said the puzzle is very complicated and very engaging, and with the shift system it's constantly evolving as well it never gets stale. There are so many interesting things going on. If you like Japanese math puzzles I highly suspect you will enjoy this game. They are also working to develop an app for it so that you can play it fully cooperative. The app will take on the role of the recruiter and players will cooperatively try to beat the game. With the app the game can actually be played solo.
Update your TV. :-) Joking aside, great episode, as always.
50% of Mind MGMT happens in the gutters of the comic book.
Do we know when this game will be on retail in the USA? I've had folks talk like it is out already, however, I've checked 10 local game stores and no luck yet. Thanks!
It's available now! Launched Sept 7 in the US! Go ask your Local Game store!
Trying to get to certain locations, agents can go in different orders...sounds like Whitehall Mystery
Makes me want to read the comic.
What is the player count?
The art is interesting and works for the game. I'm not a fan of it, but it fits for this game perfectly.
My opinion of the game after watching the video is that I would still prefer to play Fury of Dracula over this, even with the unique mechanics of this game.
But it is good to see unique mechanics coming out, like this and Destinies. Hopefully we will see more unique mechanics in the future.
Letters from Whitechapel remains the best hidden movement game, it still is the more deductive and strategic game of the genre. Whitehall Mystery, using the same mechanisms works different, it feels more like a chase while Whitechapel feels more like an investigation.
Do they talk about a kickstarter version of the game or the retail? I do not need a review of a game I cannot buy ( for a reasonable price).
This looks like the most unappealing game ever for me. Glad you all enjoyed it!
I am very glad to see the positive reviews for the gameplay, I am a HUGE fan of the comic and backed the game immediately, when I saw Matt Kindt was involved and making original comic content for it. For me, that alone was worth price of admission, though Jay ran a great fun campaign too and got me hooked on Kindt more than I was. He has a fan base, is a best selling author, and he and his family do their own watercolors for many of his books, though some he just writes. the watercolor style is pretty amazing and different IMHO, I love it. I even backed it at a level to get an original watercolor by the artist. safe to say i don't HATE it.
so i have to say , I think the way you discussed the art was extremely disrespectful to Matt, his fans, and made you look very basic, even though I can see why some people may not prefer his style. Do you read non-mainstream superhero books much? I am frankly shocked you enjoyed the comic, which I agree is amazing, but consider it highly subversive and philosophical , not just a fun mystery romp. You didn't have to say you HATED IT, emphatically, upfront, and repeatedly. we get it, you dislike his art. You do know the author and the artist are the same person, AND highly involved in production of the game (not just licensed IP)? Did you notice it was watercolor or even admire the craft at all? Did you not find the presentation as a whole amazing, and that is carried over into the boardgame production, including subversive liner notes and hidden messages, and that was the artist too? You can be a critic without being so rude. Ultimately you seem to really enjoy the game, but made this review very negative in tone, bummer. /wave Jay and Matt, can't wait for my copy to arrive.
I think I gave the game a very high rating!
How do you like the comic but hate the art????
Better than Spector ops?
Tom, this is a good review, but for me it was difficult to watch your constantly moving the "sideboard" and cards in and out of focus during the rules explanation.
Is it just me, or the audio in this review kinda bad?
Very very cool concept, very very rough artstyle to the point where I'd never buy it unfortunately.
Seems weird to me seasoned boardgamers worrying about complexity.
Roy looks (stares) at the camera too much. It's so distracting!
I am interested in how roy lost like 80 pounds lol.
Also hate the art (so ugly). Got the game as a gift and have not played it for a long time because of it.
I find the art terrible. And I'm pretty open to different styles. I even like Klemens Franz art.
The art is done by the comic book's artist himself.
Matt Kindt has a divisive style, but how refreshing it is to have this "indie comics" look in a board game, it's so different from everything that is done usually! I can agree that it works better in the comics (that is just... outsdanding, including on the graphic side, really, Kindt is a sequentiality master), and the character tokens don't convince me totally, but I really appreciate the involvement of the artist and the audacity of the approach :-)
I like Kindt's art, so I think the game looks fantastic. But, in addition, the game just gets points for not looking like every other game on the market. It feels like there's about 3 styles that board games are made in anymore. I'm not saying that this more generic art style in board games is bad, but it's certainly become bland.
This game has zero table presence IMO. The water colour cards only bother me a little. That board though, urgh. When I initially saw that board, I literally made a face. If you can look past that, it sounds like a really fun hidden movement game. It's such a shame. I don't think I'll be getting this one, and yet I also think I'll be missing out.
This fits in the "ugly games" video IMO.
Except...its gorgeous, by an Einser award winning artist!
@@eVanDieselIt's subjective. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and that's one the ugliest comics I've seen.
The Einsner is more for writing than art, AFAIK, but you can still like it while I find it as bad as the original Ascension art.