Japanese Teacher Grades Your Japanese! (Pitch-accent and culture) | Dogen
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 3 พ.ย. 2024
- Learn Japanese pitch-accent and pronunciation from my Patreon Series "Japanese Phonetics"
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Full Japanese Phonetics Bibliography:
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Dogen / Dōgen / Japanese / A Japanese teacher grades your Japanese #1 (Pitch-accent and culture!) / Grading your Japanese / Japanese phonetics / Japanese pronunciation / Japanese pitch-accent / Noah / Haru /
Japanese pitch-accent and pronunciation lessons: www.patreon.com/dogen
Oh wow, I came home from work and I saw myself in the thumbnail. I'm Noah, by the bye. Happy to be critiqued by someone I've been watching for so long, and I'll work just as hard going forward!
Thanks so much for your submission dude, really appreciate it! Good luck with your future studies; with your current skills and attitude you’ll be in a truly great place in no time at all!
Keep up the good work dude! 💪🇯🇵
I think I commented on one of your Reddit posts about exchange a year or so ago 😂 small world mannnnn
Dude, you did so well!
Great job!
Thanks for the shutout! I completely agree with everything you said-If you learn Japanese through anime, you'll be in a very good position Japanese-wise, meaning you'll have solid pronunciation and an understanding of grammar and vocabulary. That said, anime-style Japanese does exist in a vacuum, and so in order to acquire a natural speaking style, sooner or later you'll have to expose yourself to ample "real life" Japanese. The important point is that if you build a solid foundation through "anime Japanese", it shouldn't be difficult to adjust your speaking style once you start regularly exposing yourself to "natural Japanese".
Really cool idea for a video series!
And natural Japanese is best found in Dramas/Game shows, or what?
@@OwO-fw9ir I'd say dramas maybe, not so much game shows.
People on game shows tend to be far more animated and even playing up a "character" of sorts. Not exactly natural.
The closer you can find to people just living their lives and going about their daily business and rituals, the better.
@@OwO-fw9ir Why don't you just watch Japanese youtube videos 😅 The Japanese could be way more natural than in TV drama.
Dramas are great for learning everyday Japanese. Real spoken Japanese in a realistic setting. These days, I prefer documentaries because you can learn a lot of specialized vocabulary in a specific area.
But in the end, if you enjoy it you'll learn faster.
Or...you could build a solid foundation through textbook learning and the vast resources on the Internet that provide ample listening material.
As a native 関西人, none of the words that Noahさん said actually sounded like 大阪弁, so I think it's not too late for him to maybe start learning the standard Japanese pitch accent.
Also, I often hear Japanese learners say 「あのね/あのな」, and Japanese people usually think it's kinda cute, but let me just warn you that this word should only be used in very casual conversations (especially あのな). I say that, but personally, I haven't heard people around me use it even in casual conversations. The only cases I can imagine in which using 「あのね/あのな」seems natural are when little kids talk to their parents or when a boss or someone superior teaches their subordinates.
But overall I'm just so impressed with how well so many Japanese learners can speak Japanese, and I swear I'm not saying that as a "日本語上手ですね sarcasm," because had Japanese not been my 1st language, I would've never been able to learn it like them.
Your diction and grasp on the english language is better than a lot of native english speakers that I know. If you are a native Japanese person, how were you able to master the english language so well?
i was just wondering... is there any substitute for 「あのね/あのな」 which sounds either more polite or casual? what would any of oyur acquaintances use instead? or would they totally avoid using anything which expresses about the same?
@@Lotus-bh1jw
If you're just trying to say "Well..." before starting a sentence, you could just drop the "ね/な" and say 「あの～」or 「え～(＋っと)」(as in "um..."). It's kind of similar to how, when one is speaking in English to someone who is to be respected, it is acceptable to say "Well..." here and there but not so okay to say "You know" or "Hear me out." I hope this makes sense.
@@DashiSmash
Thanks for the compliment ^^
I just happened to receive secondary education in the US.
@@悟飯しっかりせぇ Are You A 日本方
it's so weird seeing him not infront of the wall
I KNOW RIGHT
neon sushi is so much better tho
what's next, Dogen without the blue sweater?
And without orange skin
thought the same lol
Even if it's Osaka accent, I think it's still ok to "correct" it for us Standard accent learners.
Just renamed it from "correction" to "comparison".
We're witnessing the beginning of something great...
25 minutes of Dogen this is a god's blessing
absolutely
Which God?
@@キラキラくりくり頭 Dogen
@@Yoryii.b なるほど
Noah is one of the admins in one of my small Japanese Learning Discords with about 15 active members. Super cool dude, Always chill.
Are you still accepting members?
@@Mika-kana We haven't in a while but the server seems to agree we should let some people in. Just don't be a dick :). discord.gg/uAcny99 If this link doesn't work by the time you click on it drop me a reply and I'll send another one over. It only has one use on it so someone might come along and take it.
@@PhrogNZ that expired real fast lol
僕も参加したいｗ
@@PhrogNZ would love to join, but I don't like this "click on the link on a public setting" chance. Annoying that we can't send PMs to people. Been looking for a place to practice intermediate+ Japanese as I get back into a study routine.
As a Japanese native and English learner, this is quite interesting. I can't explain the difference between English and Japanese pronunciation like you. Thanks!
Is that your new studio? Looks pretty good!
英語で解説してる部分はあんまりわからんけど、がんばって日本語勉強してる人見たらなんかめっちゃ嬉しくなるわ
Haru sounded PERFECT for a voice actor. By perfect I mean I really thought he was voice acting, I genuinely cannot distinguish him and anime character for real.
But that aside, speaking in that character/tone will probably be treated as "weird" or "chuunibyou". So... don't do that irl xd
He sounded kind of Russian to me to be honest. Still, extremely impressive for someone with no formal Japanese training.
I think he’s going for that anime-ish style, no one speaks like that irl
It feels kinda cringe but he's good
Am I the only one who focused on the Sushi sign behind Dogen?
I feel like buying one now
We're all flies, attracted to that big flashing neon sign called "日本"...
I want one
Haruさん kind of speaks like an boy-idol anime character, to be frank, and while I think his pronunciation is really darn good, his extremely casual talking pattern can definitely throw off natives very quickly (as I've once done myself.) Learning from fictional media (anime, games, drama) is very useful but Matt covered it quite well in one of his other videos, which is that you sort of pick up on a voice that's associated with an archetype. Although it's entirely possible that he's just playing up a character on purpose, which would be real impressive.
Ah poor Dogen is really really trying not say, he dude you talk like an Anime. Please spend sometime around actual adults.
Jup, this can probably be fixed very quickly (if he is willing to) by watching/hearing content with natural conversations (YT vlogs, podcasts, some radio shows, ...)
But he also speaks in a way that almost seems to localize or hybridize the Japanese language to an American cultural context.
Dogen also does something like this when he tells stories about American culture, "Classic Flavor" and the like. That story can't be told as if people were speaking culturally appropriate Japanese, because they certainly weren't acting that way.
Dogen is a lot more skilled at this hybridization of course.
@@jordanrodrigues8265 I'm not being that deep. I'm just thinking about how it would sound meeting someone who spoke like this in the day to day. It sounds odd.
I heard it as being done on purpose. The anime picture as well seems to suggest in my mind that this guy knew what he was doing and was playing the "animeness" up for the lolz.
仰っていることよくわかります。アニメから日本語を学ぶと、そのキャラクターごと無意識に吸収してしまいますよね。しかもそれを認識にしていないんだろうなという空気が流れるので「イタい」キャラになってしまうのをよく見かけます(笑) でもそれに対して、「アニメから日本語を学んではいけない」ということには私は同意しません。日本の子供もアニメから日本語を学びますが、それぞれのキャラクターと場面ごとの台詞の空気感を感じ取っているので、使い所を知っているわけです。要するに、第二ヶ国語として日本語学ぶ方たちも、本当にキャラクターと台詞の空気感を理解していれば、アニメはとても良い（ドウゲンさんが仰っているようにピッチの練習としては最高）教材だと思います。
What you said is truly on point. They tell you not to learn Japanese from anime, but as long as you are aware of what kind of characters you are learning Japanese from, I think anime is a great platform especially for, like you said, leaning the Japanese pitch accents. But I see a lot of people have no idea if not little about each character in anime is super characterized for what it is to the point where they would sound cringy in real conversations. (And I don't think it's only about Japanese anime but also Hollywood movies and American TV shows.) Children in Japan have proper offsets and understand what to use certain phrases and when. So it’s one of the crucial points when learning Japanese and I don’t see people talk about this very often.
@@RadkeMaiden uP
@@RadkeMaiden Very true although I can only imagine...
アニメはその日本語を勉強するにはもってこいです。ただ、そのキャラクターや主人公、登場人物の間柄や状況を理解しないで、実際に使ってしまうと少し危険ですね。だから、そこは日本の文化を勉強する必要がありますけどね。でも、間違って目上の人に失礼な言葉を使ってしまっても、日本ではたいてい許されます。それは、日本人の上司や目上の方は、あなたが外国人だという認識があるから逆に面白いと思ってくれる場合さえありますからそこまで心配する必要はないです。
Love this video, excited for more in the series! That story about saying すっげー楽しかった to your teacher hit really close to home...I have almost the exact same experience lol
I started learning Japanese in a classroom setting in high school where everything's です/ます form but once I started watching dramas and self-teaching I thought it made me sound much more fluent to use casual speech and contractions since they're not taught in classes. It's so embarrassing imagining how I must have sounded to my Japanese teacher...thinking I was so much better than my classmates but in reality just inappropriate and rude, and not grasping the correct context of the words.
The first day of Japanese class in college I started out with my usual casual form and got the absolute sternest glare from my professor, I swear I'll never forget it lol. A much needed wake-up call that I'm really grateful for now. It took a while to realize that true fluency is not the ability to whip out speech patterns they don't teach you in the classroom but to 使い分ける your word choice depending on the situation.
The same happens to me. I'm very self-conscious about this, but I still can't help it. I'm all the time like "むずかｔ…難かしかった。です"
My classes start again in a week, so let's see if I can control it somehow...
Oh my God, Dogen. It really is just pitch. How did I not realize, I even used to go to singing lessons.
This is insane. Thank you, this solves everything.
Good for you! Sounds like it's clicked :) I am the least musical person in the world and I keep thinking I'm going up in pitch, when my pitch app says I'm going down D:
Gotta say, you are actually spending way more time per person than i initially expected. Im honestly positively surprised by how this first 'episode' has turned out.
Hope ill be able to contribute sometime soon as well.
In all honesty, 'polite' form (です/ます) is the best to default to in most situations. You don't really encounter situations where using polite form would be weird until you've been in Japan for a while/you've been learning for a while.
It depends; in formal situations sure, but if you're making friends and they try to talk to you in plain form and you keep responding with 丁寧語, you're not going to sound very friendly. The tricky bit is going the other way around, figuring out when it's okay to drop the ます with a friend. I still haven't quite figured that one out.
You also need to keep in mind that even when using ます, you don't use it *all the time* in typical speech. If you have a compound sentence, like 全く歌えないので、カラオケに興味がありません, notice how the part before the ので is in plain form, and you only use ます（ません） at the end. If you throw in ます everywhere, it'll sound stilted.
@Diana Lee compare one roommate offended to a hundred strangers one could offend by being over-familiar
Haru flirting with the teacher.
Coming from a Mexican American background, it’s interesting to see that many English native speakers who really only grew up knowing one language fluently, have trouble understanding/noticing polite speech and when to use.
I was always super conscious of 丁寧語 and forms of 敬語 because there’s lighter levels of that in Spanish and my mom would teach me to use more polite forms of Spanish even among family members.
So as soon as I first discovered that there was politer ways to say something, I was all over it. It was super important to me.
So, growing up bilingual really might give you an advantage when learning languages like Japanese even if the second language is English/mother tongue in my case) romantic language like Spanish .
Same, when I was learning Japanese in high school I would speak with my Spanish accent/tone until I learned my own Japanese tone. It made my teacher laugh when I would automatically roll my Rs. Good times.
As a Brazilian who is trying to improve their Spanish, can you expand on that? I've heard of formal Spanish but I thought that it wasn't used too much. Here in Brazil, or at least where I live, if you are trying to be polite you will use "senhor/senhora" and "obrigado" etc. We don't really use super polite Portuguese unless it's in literature. In Spanish you have "vosotros", here we have "vós" but it's not used in everyday speech because it sounds archaic. Things like that. European Portuguese is different though.
Perhaps I'm wrong, but that has been my experience.
Hexy Ko
It’s nowhere near as strict as Japanese is but one very basic example would be
Quieres comer? (Casual/standard)
Quiere comer? (Formal)
You would do this with every single verb if you’re speaking Spanish with someone who is of a higher “social standing” than yourself.
One interesting thing to note is that with Japanese, you’d almost never use honorifics with your family members or others within your “inner group” but in my family (as well as many of my friend’s families) you use honorifics with mom, dad, grandma etc
Basically... almost every language other than english has a grammatical polite form.
Peter
Then I guess a lot of monolingual English speakers suffered from the lack of politeness awareness or something
One day ill be featured on this series. Heed my words.
最初の方の日本語は全て理解できます。とても上手な方ですね。
ただ、全体を通して言葉の丁寧さが不均一で、そこが不自然と感じます。
1:48 突然の「あーのなー」にビックリしました（＾＾；
日本人の場合、教えを請うている状況では「あのな」は絶対に使わないので、完全な不意打ちでした。関西弁でも、だれかになにかを尋ねている最中に「あのな」は使わない・・・はず・・・。
前置きを終えて本題に入るときは「それで」や「それでですね」を使って欲しい・・・
そやね
天然の日本人に聞きたいですが、彼の"あのな"は不快に思いましたか？
教えて頂けると幸いです
@@ほげ-t5r 不快というより、まずビックリしました。「あのな」までの日本語が、少しクセはあるもののちゃんと聞き取れていたので、どういうつもりの「あーのなー」なのかと。日本語の流れとして、ここに「あのな」が単体で来ることはないので、一瞬意味が分かりませんでした。
もし彼が「それでな、あのな」と言っていたら、日本語の流れとして不自然さがない分、かえって不快に思ったかもしれません。
「それで、あのー」なら、まったく不快ではないのですが。
「あのな」って
呆れてる時とか反論する時に使うよね。
呆れてる時っていうのは、「あのな、ここはこうなんだよ。わかる？」みたいな。
反論する時っていうのは、「あのな！普通はそんなことしないんだよ！」みたいな。
ただ全然使わない。コメ主の言いたいことはよくわかる。
教えてくれてありがとう (＾ᴗ＾)
Your explanation of style of speak that results from learning Japanese in a vacuum was really well put, something that I wish I heard years ago when I first started learning. Luckily I had a chance to study abroad which quickly made me aware of my issues, but those who haven't had that chance, really need to see this video
Dogenさん、ほんと丁寧にフィードバックしてて流石だな
I think it would be interesting if next time you picked one video of someone who isn't a native English speaker. And analyze/compare how their native language, whichever it might be, affects their pronunciation of Japanese.
I'd try submitting a video myself, since I fit that criteria, but it's すっげー恥ずかしい
That sounds very interesting! I'm American, but about half of the people in my Japanese class spoke Spanish as a native or second language and a lot of people would tend to revert to Spanish speaking patterns rather than English when they would speak Japanese. It actually sounded better than most of those that only spoke English since Spanish vowels are more similar to Japanese and there are some cultural language similarities ( like a more formal way of speaking with those older than you for example), but something was still a bit off about the general flow and intonation.
Maybe it's because Spanish is spoken with a lot more expression than Japanese.
Yes!!! I saw a video recently of a Japanese ambassador speaking Arabic with his native accent, and I’m interested in knowing what the reverse sounds like.
really enjoyed this personal look into studying japanese and hearing your story in the new format! excited for more of this content~すっげ楽しみしてますっw
私の英語もネイティブスピーカーにはこんな感じに聞こえてんのか
This was fantastic! Everything from the set, video/audio quality, to the little anecdotes you were giving, it all flew by really quickly, I didn't even realise 24 minutes had gone by. Please continue making these. I had fun watching.
I had a similar experience as Dogen-san and Haru, where my first experience speaking with a Japanese person, back when I only watched a couple of anime and new a few Japanese words, was when she said something to the effect "do you want me to teach you some Japanese?" and, trying to impress her with my amazing Japanese, responded with "atari mae da", thinking that it just meant "of course". Without understanding the commanding weight behind the word.
Well, "Atari mae da" is ðe equivalent of "No shit, Sherlock!", so....... be careful, guys.
That moment when Dogen's videos go from 1 minute to 24 minutes long, but you still watch them till the end anyway
This was phenomenal!! I can't believe how long I've been studying Japanese and I haven't come across pitch accent. This is so helpful!! Thank you! Please make many more episodes.
dogen is so wholesome and so humble god what an angel
Great lighting. Definitely shows you put effort into it
Dogen is such a good teacher. Such encouragement, much wow
I am amazed at your humble yet constructive feedback. A very welcoming and confidence building approach. The opposite of intimidating. Thank-you.
*seeing the title*
*thinking about getting graded by Dogen*🤩
*remembering I'm still struggling with N4* 😔
Lol I've been studying Japanese for 4 years (off and on) and I'm still struggling with N5!!
悪い感じだね
If N6 existed I'd be struggling with it.
Finally, someone who reacts to people _after_ they said their piece, rather than annoying the viewer by interrupting as they speak (like every TH-cam reactor does this like *stop).*
Ikr, I was expecting him to pause it after the first or second sentence. I've been watching too many Pewds videos probably, lol.
@@JezzmanGAMES Oh yeah, of course 😂😂😂
If it’s people reacting to videos that can be copyrighted they kinda have to interrupt the videos to make their content transformative. It’s unfortunate but if they don’t want the video to be potentially copystriked they can’t just play the video and react after.
Really interesting to hear about the idea of "how you come off as". I would be worried that Japanese people are being too nice and don't want to correct me, so that's good if you can find someone who won't hold back lol
Oh! Didn't noticed that this was a 24-minute video!
Definitely learned a LOOOT of helpful tips from this one! 本当にありがとうございます！!
Japanese is my third language, I'm a Filipino and I've been using English to learn Japanese.
I can definitely see my last-year's-self from this haha
From watching anime for about eight years now, my ears are so used to anime exaggerated accents.
BUT not until I stumbled upon this channel last year talking about the three types of PITCHES, which is really cool because now my subconscious is kinda punching me every time I use too much accents when speaking in Japanese. From learning English, it's quite hard to remove that inherited 癖, but through practice it is now getting better! Now, I don't just take note and acquire words as it is, I'm now also taking notes and acquiring the pitch of the wordsーthis is not really taught in beginner books. Felt like I found a really good "cheat sheet". Thank you very much Dogenさん!!!
今年の2月日本旅行、日本人との最初の会話は実際、初心者の視点では凄く速かったので聞き取れなかったんです。
勿論どの言語でもそりゃ当たり前ことでしょう？でも厳しかったです（笑）でも今頑張りたいなと思います！
アニメを見ることが聴解力に良いだと思うけど、自然な日本語力を達したいなら、別の効果的な方法があります。
今のところ、一年半間の勉強後、アニメをスーピキング参考として辞めた、TH-camで色んな凄くネイティブや先生に沢山見たり、Podcastや文法本も買ったり学んだでいます。この方法は八年間のアニメを見ることのよりも効果的で、独学向け学習者にも推奨します！
All foreigners become different people when they are speaking Japanese.
That is language in general. When people speak another language, people do tend characteristically change slightly. Perhaps even more so with Japanese (At least with English speakers) as it is structurally completely different.
So true, Japanese even changed the way I use my native language (Vietnamese) and the way I communicate with everyone in Vietnamese as well
I can be an adult in English, but not in Japanese (yet).
so thoughtful of you to ask for subtitles! thank you from a beginner Japanese learner :)
Wonderful job, Dogen. This was a great idea for a new series.
I’m so happy right now. I can’t believe how much just 20min could help my Japanese. And then the fact that you addressed the people learning by themselves just really helped. I’ve only been intensely learning for around a year and half to two years, but I had never heard or known about Japanese phonetics and I’ll definitely be paying attention now. All I can say is thank you thank you thank you!! ありがとうございます！！
Damn, Dogen always being so humble, but I could only dream of having a speaking ability even close to his.
There's some cool videos by 'That Japanese Man Yuta' where he talks about how anime characters speak. The videos are titled "How Luffy Speaks Japanese", "How Rem Speaks Japanese", "How Megumi Speaks Japanese", etc. Anyone who is interested should checkout his channel.
this could’ve been an hour long i would’ve watched the whole thing
I loved hearing you ramble about your own experiences and stuff, I'd really love more of this type of content!
This is such high quality content honestly thank you Dogen for putting this kind of video out on youtube! Even though I"m not actively learning japanese watching you critique and just talk about the phonetics in general is fascinating and super entertaining.
Hey Dogen I love your video and when you talked about how words like yume and yumei can have some miscommunication occur sometimes, I actually experienced this a few weeks ago when I was talking to my Japanese friend about anime. I said in Japanese that, "Naruto was very popular in America." But my friend thought I said, "Naruto is very dream in America." After this I learned that pitch-accent aside, Japanese is incredibly hard to speak and miscommunication is quite common when speaking to natives.
I learned also a bit of culture through translator notes of fan-subbed anime. Those are real handy, I love it when they do that. It depends on what kind of anime you watch, but for example things like:
Nosebleed = perverted thoughts
Sneeze = someone's thinking/talking about you
Senpai-Kouhai relation
Those are some things I've learned through watching subbed anime years ago. Right now I'm studying Japanese full-time (for 1 year so far). So maybe you could say it's one of the things that sparked my interest in Japan in general. So don't underestimate the power of Translator's notes!
I feel thankful for every Translator-san out there, who takes a bit of their time to educate others. 🖖
I actually have an anecdote about the politeness thing around 22:30, kinda!
I was on Hellotalk, I reached out to someone who had made a post about the Death Note movies and then deleted them, and in chat started talking to them about Anime. It's an older guy. Several messages in I changed my verb conjugations (not completely consciously) to casual form. Most casual form usages (stuff like って and a heavy use of casual verb endings) I picked up FROM Hellotalk because a lot of people in the chats are often young and not so rigid.
The guy corrected a misused particle AND my verb ending to a masu form which surprised me! Seeing that, and knowing the guy's age, was all the hint I needed that there 100% is a boundary of expected politeness between us, and so I have not used a casual form (or a だけど even though I actually struggle with のが) since.
I thought Haru-san's Japanese was a pleasure to listen to. I think he said he was going to make TH-cam videos in Japanese? I'd like to see them. It sounded like an anime character was talking to me and this could be really entertaining for a TH-cam channel. But like Dogen said, it's a really casual way to talk to someone you haven't met so as long as he can turn that off and speak normally too then he's set. I learned Japanese in the classroom first so I've always had a good feel on what politeness level to use. Well, like Dogen said, I kind of default to medium desu level usually since I learned it first. Thanks to both people for submitting recordings to be reviewed it's really brave I think.
Thanks for the awesome explanation of the things a lot of Japanese learners struggle with.
The realization that Japanese is a pitch accent language (just learned that term) completely fixed my Japanese. I used to stretch out long vowels (おう as opposed to お for example). By going up in pitch instead of stretching out the vowel, I started to notice that people actually understood me much better.
Still a work in progress, but these videos are helping me sound closer to native Japanese. Thank you!
とても真剣に日本語に取り組んでいるのが、感動しました。ハルさんは、「イケボ配信者」アニメを真似しているとやはり感じました。語彙力が稚拙であり、女性を声で恋させるゲームソフトの話し方ですね。日本で言うと、中学から高校生相手の声優さんになれますよ！私は日本語しか話せませんが、まだまだ勉強不足だと思いました。アクセントがどこについているのか、自分で話していてもわかりません。道元さんはすごいですね。熟語も本当によく知っている。みなさん、日本語が流暢だと思ってしまいます。独学でよくここまで話せるのか、耳が良いのでしょうね。
the outro greeting has changed from 「さようなら」to「ではまた」 , guess he saw the comment on the previous vid. lol
最後の挨拶が「さようなら」から「ではまた」になってる。前の動画のコメント見たのかなw
this is going to be a very interesting series, so excited to see the upcoming vids.
面白いシリーズになりそうで楽しみ
I feel like since japanese people rarely talk with a foreigner in japanese, we feel too uncomfortable when we hear wrongly pitched accents.
日本人は外国人と日本語で話す機会が少ないので、間違ったピッチアクセントを聴くと気になりすぎちゃう気がする。
englsh is a global language and the minor mistakes dont bother the native speakers that much.
英語は共通語だし、小さなミスはそれほどネイティブの気に障らないんだろうけど。
just start speaking japanese without thinking too much about pitch accent ,and later have a japanese correct your accent is maybe one of the methods.
ピッチアクセントなんて気にせず、まずは日本語を話してみてから日本人に矯正してもらうのも一つの手だろうね
This reminded me of 2 very embarrassing moments. The first was because my pronunciation was slurred, I think, my kendo Sensei heard "Anta" instead of "anata" which is super rude and he corrected me, and told me it was fine to use it with him but I think he was only trying to soften the blow and I was red, burning with shame. The second memory is actually with Spanish, cause I moved to Guatemala and studied there I picked on many jargon and such and one day after exams one teacher saw me and asked me, "how was your exams day" = "como te fue en tu día de exámenes" and I told her "pisado" which can be translated literally to "squeezed or stepped on", I thought it meant something like "difficult", instead it actually means "shitty" or "hard as fuck". Because I had learned by hearing other students talking WITH each other I didn't know it was rude to say that to a teacher. Again, I wanted to be swallowed by the earth. Thankfully in that case as well my teacher understood I was a foreigner learning from bad mouthed students hahahaha and forgave me, and told me, to avoid using such language.
みんな上手だなー！日本語を学んでくれる人が増えているのは嬉しい！
This is a great format Dogen. Looking forward to more! One request would be to include a few more specific pitch accent corrections. But I like the discussion in general too.
道元さんの寿司ライトめっちゃ可愛い
Thank you for sharing your story. Understanding the nuances and context in Japanese learning are so important.
Great series! I love to hear fellow foreigners' Japanese skills. Pitch accent is something I never formally studied but picked up through immersion...looking forward to hearing more of it explained in detail!
These videos are so helpful in clarifying why different learning experiences are so valuable. My question is, with Japanese people being so polite, is it difficult to find someone who will be "brutally honest" about one's speaking ability? Essentially, not just say 'you speak Japanese well' when you have very specific issues that need dealing with.
Difficult indeed!
Considering sending in a video just to see how mangled my pitch accent is after learning standard in college followed by a decade of my adult life in Kansai.
That would be great to listen to lol
I wish there was a Dogen for all languages!!
I have to ask, aside from being inappropriately familiar, does Haru's Japanese also sound performative in some way?
I don't really know how to explain, and it's likely that I'm just imagining it because my awareness of Japanese isn't there yet, but he sounds very different from how "natural" Japanese speakers sound to me. Like he's deliberately performing a character?
I'm also going for a high-immersion approach and it will be a while before I regularly talk to native speakers, so I worry about inadvertently developing my habits in that direction, that's why I ask.
His way of speaking is very similar to that of an anime character, but if anything, he is rude.
I'm not Japanese, but (combined with the pic) he definitely sounded like an anime-characterr/voice actor to me.
Edit: Lol, I just noticed he commented down below.
Mhmm. Guys don't speak like this in Japan. While its far more socially acceptable for young women to 'perform' or 'act' with their voices Men usually don't. There are of course higher pitched men or men who speak in a feminine manner but it's still different from how Haru spoke.
It's probably his insistence on using あの in pretty much every sentence. It's very reminiscent of someone who's trying to speak English in a method similar to a Californian, where every sentence is filled with "like" and other filler words. But yes, it's a bit odd, kind of reminds me of customer service voice but without the appropriate keigo.
Love the set and the overall look! Really works well to separate it from your other content without it seem disconnected. Looking forward to more!
ハルさんの日本語は韓国人か中国人のような訛りがありますね。
Haru's Japanese sounds like Japanese spoken by Korean or Chinese.
Immediately though he sounded Korean maybe that's just me.
ですね
The way you use the signals? of intonations is amazing
Really enjoy watching the video. Could listen to you for hours! 🙈
これ見て思ったのは外国の人が語学留学で日本に来るとき東京らへんがいいのかなと思った
関西弁など特徴のある言葉を身に着けてもいいのなら大阪や関西圏でもいいけど、標準語を学びたいと思うのなら関東圏がいいかもね
あくまでも個人の意見なので、専門家かどういうのかわからないけど笑
8:42 my first thought was the "kore wa pen desu" vs "this is a PEN" thing, the destructive power of English lol
Your editing is simple, but wonderful. Your content makes me excited to learn about other cultures, not just Japanese culture. Well done.
I've only just started learning, so this stuff is - for the most part - beyond me. However the "anime voice"/ learning in a vacuum thing is a great observation and warning to learners!
It's something I've noticed myself slip into and am trying to be mindful of, though without in-person classes it's gonna be a bit tricky.
What would you say is a good thing to listen to that'd help sound more native but not so unnatural? News, interviews etc?
Realistic movies with actual actors tend to work well!
@Dogen Awesome, thanks so much!
@@user-zw8pi6up3n I recommend the film Tokyo Sonata. It's very slice of life and it's good in my opinion.
@Hexy Ko Will check it out, thank you!
If you have Netflix I recommend Terrace House and Japanese Style Originator
いつものシュールで楽しい動画のイメージと違い、一人一人真摯に添削されていて、そのギャップの格好良さといったら…！
多くの日本人は日本語を勉強している外国人に対し、少々おかしなアクセントや発音や言い回しがあっても「日本語を話せるだけでもう充分」と、寛容な気持ちでスルーしてしまっていると思います。本人が「もっと上手になりたい！」と思っているなら、友人だけでなく、Dogenさんのように的確なアドバイスをしてくれる方がとても貴重な存在だろうと思います。
one episode in and this series is already proving to be super useful... i realized that, like Noah, i have been increasing my voice's volume in addition to pitch on a lot of pitched moras, and i've already started correcting the habit and trying to speak at a steady volume throughout a sentence. やっぱり日本語は英語とすっかりと違いますね
Dogen様。I love your videos. I hope that you’re safe and happy.
このような場所では様はあまり使いません！
Fantastic video, this really helps my own studies!
Loved this video & the whole concept - keep doing it pls! I've been studying Japanese for about 5 years, it's a never ending cycle of learning and relearning. Let's polish it. Thanks Dogen!
Hey Dogen, I just came across your channel today. Wow. I've been watching Japanese shows for 10+ years, having watched well over 10,000 hours of content from anime to drama, to variety shows, cooking shows, oogui, even Japanese high school baseball!
But I never even realized the existence, let alone significance of pitch accents, leading to my horribly flawed pronunciation.
I haven't subscribed to your patreon videos yet (plan to though!), so you may have covered this already, but in case you haven't, I want to put in my 2c as food for thought:
1. I think for English speakers at least, our biggest problem, at least those of use steeped in Japanese entertainment is not that we can't recognize correct pitch accents. Rather, it's that *in addition* to correct Japanese pitch accents, we also erroneously recognize incorrect English pitch accents as correct. Take your examples of "最高" and "アメリカ". Well, the first sounds almost like the English word "Cycle", and the second, obviously "America". So enunciating, and hearing those two words with an English pitch accent sounds super natural; and indeed, would be our first, intuitive reaction. And yet that is wrong in Japanese.
So the problem isn't about learning Japanese pitch accents patterns. It's about unlearning English pitch accent patterns, or at least divorcing it from Japanese sounds. More than trying to understand "what sounds natural", it's more important to understand "what sounds unnatural". And perhaps a study of English pitch accent patterns would be a great tool in order to recognize what we subconsciously do with English, and make it slightly easier to remove it from Japanese sounds.
2. I know you said that you started learning from romaji, which you think isn't a bad idea because learning pronunciation is most important at the start. I agree with the idea of learning proper pronunciation asap, but at the same time I feel like my reliance on romaji may have contributed to a bad pitch accent.
You see, while I can recognize hiragana and katakana, I *never* use them, and I don't take the effort to read them. I only read romaji (which I do a lot, because I try to sing a lot of Japanese songs). I am not certain of this, but I feel like I *may* have subconsciously associated English pitch accent patterns to Japanese words *because* of using romaji; because roman letters switch my brain to "english mode", and though I can pronounce the individual sounds in a Japanese manner, the overall flow and pitch patterns of words and phrases may be subconsciously influenced by English patterns.
Again, I am not certain of this, but it's a theory that I have that you may look into.
朝の用事？どゆこと？「今朝方なんだけど」ってことかな？
「僕はハルよ」は砕けて言う言い方で言いたいんだよね？
となると、「僕はハルだよ～ん」とか、「僕はハルでーす」っていった方がいいかもね。
This was awesome! Thank you, Dogen!
i dont even speak Japanese, but this video helped me a lot with my French. Especially seeing the same patterns that come up for language learners like overconfidence in casual language and cultural mistakes
Nice set up!
Very interesting... Great content and lovely style. Thank you, Dogen!
I'm a bit late but am loving this (relatively) new video series (and filming set up!) !!
Just amazing! Gonna make one for a future video! Thanks Dogen!
Noah's Japanese was fantastic, but one thing that was been distracting was the way he pronounced きょねん (1:49). I quickly figured out he was trying to say 去年, but because he pronounced it as きょーねん or きょうねん, it sounded like 享年, which means "the age someone died". Especially because he started the sentence with あのな～, with some tone that sounded like he was pissed off, I momentarily thought he was going to talk about how someone died because of his Japanese or something. I guess this is another example of how stress pitching can fundamentally change meanings of words.
Dogen,
I am currently studying at the University of Minnesota to become an English teacher. I think this was a great video! Normally, I watch your videos for entertainment, and enjoy them very much, but this video had a completely different feel to it. It was very professional, and I believe your experience teaching Japanese shows!
I am excited for all the new content!
i’m learning korean not japanese but dogen’s videos are always so entertaining ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ also if i learn japanese someday i feel like i’ll be one step ahead haha
this new setup is very cool!!
The cultural stuff is so important and you’ve explained why so well. It’s very similar in Persian, and for me as a very casual Australian, I have definitely been guilty of the demonstration act. Ha! I’m constantly having to be mindful of such nuances.
I went to my first Japanese/English language exchange in March of 2020. There were mostly young people there, and that was the first time I heard the plain form used extensively. It was magical!
As a casual, for fun, beginner learner, this was the most education I have received on pronunciation. Stress accent vs pitch accent interesting discussion.
日本語は様々なアクセントがある英語とは違い、またネイティブのように発音できる学習者が少ない言語であるだけに発音がいいとかえって相手のハードルを上げてしまいますよね。日系の外国人など、とくに海外で育ったバイリンガルの方が日本で仕事をするときに、日本語は自然なのに敬語がうまく使えなくて苦しむという話をよく聞きます。
This was great and really helpful! Really looking forward to more videos like this one. Great work!
this was really cool! Looking forward to seeing more in the future
Never learned Japanese in my life, but this really inspired me to learn more about Chinese (the language I'm studying) linguistics so I can catch all of those little nuances. Your explanations were super thorough and easy to understand even for someone with no knowledge of Japanese!