Such a small thing but I am glad Glenn goes to the gym. May he stay healthy and live long to fill our minds with critical and intellectual thoughts forever!
Good discussion. Be careful when you say "we don't need to hear certain things", though John. I work in child protection across a huge region in the UK and actually we DO deliver training to hundreds of school principals in which we listen to recordings of molesters and their rationale. This among other things helps to fine tune our awareness in identifying the problem. If it helped protect your child you'd think differently. Dealing with it as a polite society option that we don't talk about is naive.
Moldbug in 2013: It’s actually not hard to explain the Brown Scare. Like all witch hunts, it’s built on a conspiracy theory. The Red Scare was based on a conspiracy theory too, but at least it was a real conspiracy with real witches-two of whom were my father’s parents. (The nicest people on earth, as people. I like to think of them not as worshipping Stalin, but worshipping what they thought Stalin was.) Moreover, the Red Scare was a largely demotic or peasant phenomenon to which America’s governing intellectual classes were, for obvious reasons, immune. Because power works and culture is downstream from politics-real politics, at least-the Red Scare soon faded into a joke. As a mainstream conspiracy theory, fully in the institutional saddle, the Brown Scare is far greater and more terrifying. Unfortunately no central statistics are kept, but I wouldn’t be surprised if every day in America, more racists, fascists and sexists are detected, purged and destroyed, than all the screenwriters who had to prosper under pseudonyms in the ’50s. Indeed it’s not an exaggeration to say that hundreds of thousands of Americans, perhaps even a million, are employed in one arm or another of this ideological apparatus. www.unqualified-reservations.org/2013/09/technology-communism-and-brown-scare/
After defending those I don’t know that use the phrase, “All Lives Matter,” friends of mine are now trouncing on me, accusing me personally of being a racist. My defense, which could very well be sorely misplaced, is this: Black Lives Matter because All Lives Matter. I’m defending that statement only because I don’t see that statement as a counter argument to BLM... Of course Black Lives Matter... So why on earth are people so eager to attack people that make the statement All Lives Matter as an attempt to counter BLM? I’m hoping to hear an explanation here that I clearly can’t get from my peers...
I've been listening to these two over several clips talking about cancel culture, the 1619 project and the like for many hours and have been enlightened. But in truth someday I'd like to hear Glen talk about economics and John talk about the difference between pidgin and creole.
Darrell Malone They are not grifters, if that’s what you’re implying. They care about what they are talking about. The identitarian left is trying to destroy modernity; that seems like something worth discussing.
@@Individual_Lives_Matter Let's see them discuss anything else then. I'll wait. I like a lot of the content from Watson. These guys are just playing the same song to keep guys like you coming back...
Wow academics having a sensible conversation on TH-cam. Very engaging discussion guys, so refreshing to hear you calling out the insulting paternalism of “white fragility”.
I cannot think of any other two intellectuals that I trust more. There are so many intellectually dishonest grifters. If either of you had a Patreon I’d give you money.
I disagree that it’s impossible not to “see color.” Of course you see a person’s skin color, but depending on your worldview, values, life experience, the relationships you’ve had, and the people you’ve lived and worked amongst - you see skin color the same way you see that the sky is blue, or that someone is 6’5” or 5’8,” or has a muscular build, red hair, or a deep voice - a physical characteristic that’s part of who a person is, but not one that you judge or identify them by. Like John finds “White Fragility” condescending, as a white person, I find the assertion in John’s skepticism of the hypothetical white person who “doesn’t see color” scenario - that a white person (or any other color person) is incapable of interacting with someone who looks differently than they do, without their counterpart’s skin color influencing their response and the interaction - to be offensive - and not because of a need to prove moral purity, but because it implies that my interactions with people are governed by something so superficial.
Enjoyable as always Gentlemen. At times these days, when I get a little overwhelmed by the sheer verbiage of otherwise intelligent discussion, I find myself wandering into this podcast just to calm down a little - and it always works. Guaranteed to wake up and soothe a questing mind. A quick question: Could it now be that the "R" word has in some strange way in these strange times, supplanted and replaced the "N" word? In terms of the ability of that R word hurled with appropriate venom and threat, and the power it has over otherwise courageous people who know it actually isn't true or accurate, but realize they have no real way to prove it? Just a thought. I'll keep this brief because I'm off to the recording studio, and will sojourn there in a decidedly positive frame of mind after being "settled down" a little by your always, exemplary efforts.
Great content. I haven’t watched this show in a while. Has John Mcwhorter changed his tune on Trump due to all that has happened since Biden taking office?
I think I would laugh if someone called me racist. It has been so over used it has no meaning anymore. I believe one or both of you have said you have been called racist proving my point.☹️☹️☹️
40:30 _I don'e believe Mr x when he says he doesn't see color..._ But when you've spent enough time with a diverse group, and you really see no color in yourself nor identify with one, it really is this way... White people don't grow up looking in the mirror saying "now there is A WHITE PERSON" in the reflection. We don't have "white music, film, etc." This line is drawn by the outgroup. There is no analogy in the "white world" of the "black identity." White people don't identify as white. They are handed this label.
. It seems like the real challenge is that the threats to society are coming from both directions. What kind of government can come out of a bipartisan deconstruction of society?
I didn’t vote for Trump. I thought he was a joke. I think he’s a bit of an idiot, at times, BUT he is the only presidential candidate that will stand up to the Wokeists.
Serious question: At what cost is Trump pushing back to the wokeists? He sounds nothing like the reasoned pushback of the video and relies on misplaced nostalgia when trying to “own the libs”. I cant help but feel we’re still worse off with him in office
Manoj Vangala Explain your view of “misplaced” nostalgia please. There is an awful lot that was better before than now. Families that were over 75% whole with a married mom and a dad, a very low murder rate, people of all races able to find SOME work (due to no minimum wage) and rise getting better and better work due to cities not being bombed out. The voting act and other anti-discrimination laws were great. Colonialism fell. Nazis were defeated. We reached the moon. After that, it does seem we overdid it and that a wrong turn was taken, with littering, pollution and overall politeness and decency of society having dramatically declined. The only good thing is less racism, but technology seems to have made us more comfortable, but fatter and more brutish and brutal.
roundedges2 If Trump mentioned these, then maybe there’s something to it but he instead spends way too much time scolding athletes for kneeling, defending confederate monuments, and name-calling/trolling on Twitter. His priority seems to be protecting his fragile ego rather than rising above it to make factual claims that might actually help push back the tide of woke-ism
That's a bit of a strawman there when he's talking about the truly medieval moment. I don't have any numbers on it and neither would anyone else, but I'd be interested to know how many people made the argument as he described, as opposed to "assuming an equal risk of cornavirus in both cases, being allowed to go to restaurants and movies is not morally equivalent to protesting against racism."
@CalvinSomething I mean... I dunno if I totally follow you in the second paragraph. Either there's a broader ethical and moral value to addressing police violence and racial inequality or there isn't. So, to me, it's only if it has the same moral and ethical value as going to Hooters for wings that it should be rhetorically made parallel. There's a theoretically measurable value to police reform, in terms of reducing human suffering and death over time, one that should be considered against doing the same thing to fill your face with popcorn while watching the latest Marvel poop. They're not morally equivalent, if you are using aggregate human suffering/happiness as your ethical model. I dunno, like I say, I might have misunderstood your second half a bit.
In the UK we we’re told that the lives of the old and the survival of our national health service, required people social distancing. Our media, politicians and police were very very strict about it. Until a case of police brutality happened 4000 miles away on another continent, then suddenly pointing out that large gatherings of BLM protesters pulling down our statues contradicted what we had been being told for months. But the politicians, media and police weren’t interested. It was a worthy cause. COVID19, grandma and the NHS could be risked if it was in the name of anti racism! This made ZERO sense in the American context. The fact it happened in Britain as well should alert us all to the fact that our civilisations have been deranged by the concept of social justice. It’s a collective madness.
@@honestjohn6418 lol. I'd agree there are many sources of madness in the world. The fact that so many people are inclined to consider social justice one probably hints at some of actual sources.
Microsoft Word Technical Support So you don’t think it’s indicative of collective madness for the entire British establishment to go from saying COVID19 is an existential threat, we must all stay indoors to save lives and save our beloved NHS from being overwhelmed; to cheering on mass gatherings of far left protestors doing black power salutes and vandalising our heritage? People literally risking lives to protest racist policing in another country and those protests being welcomed by our media which days earlier had been hounding a government adviser for risking lives by taking a trip during lockdown and our unarmed politically correct police, who days earlier had been zealously enforcing a lockdown, taking a knee and saying BLM were welcome to protest! That’s not indicative of madness? It’s thinking that is indicative of madness which is the madness? I don’t think you are thinking straight. The concept of social justice has clouded your judgment.
Woke is a good word. It's one they invented as a self-descriptor. But unlike SJW/Social Justice Warrior, which was also a self-descriptor, the term "woke" hasn't been over-applied and neutered like SJW has. There are radical anti-SJWs and far-right people who will call everything remotely liberal "SJW". But Woke... woke hasn't been used in that way. And even liberal people like Barack Obama have used the word "woke" to call out radical leftists. Therefore, unlike "SJW", they can't dismiss "woke" as a right-wing pejorative for anyone right-wingers don't like. If you are worried about the term "woke mob"... then you can just say "woke academia" "woke twitter" "woke media" "woke politicians" "woke Hollywood" "woke activists" "woke people", etc.
I see color but try not to let it influence how I treat the person-unless it's in regard to something they may be racially sensitive about. When my teacher colleagues said, "I don't see color", I'm not sure if they are claiming not to notice race (ridiculous) or if they mean that they don't treat people unfairly because of their race. Motivation matters.
i dont see color is more from 20 or 30 years ago. when we said it at that time it meant that the color of your skin doesnt influence how i treat you. i will also say that the whole 'you have to see my color and feel some sort of guilt because of it' is absolute bs
@@malvolio01 sry "Far Right" it doesn't matter it was just my musings. I still follow Glenn & am informed i try to listen to all sides even tho i lean left most of the time
@@oliviadenson6315 Hi - actually yes he does, insightfully... esp regarding criminal justice reform & incarceration. He gave a moving lecture - I forget for whom, you can Google it, maybe 2016? - in which he tells an anecdote of his younger righteous right-of-center self making Coretta Scott King cry... and feeling like an a**hole for it. I think he's anti-far-anything, R or L.
He is a classic Liberal as in 'Liberal Arts', being open to discussing and debating ideas that disagree with his own point of view. The Marxists co-opted the term Liberal and have recent moved on to preferring Progressive to describe themselves.
Mr. Loury's assertion that Donald Trump could not be a threat to democracy simply because he was elected through the democratic process is sheer nonsense.
![The 1619 Project's Pulitzer | Glenn Loury & John McWhorter [The Glenn Show]](/img/n.gif)
Such a small thing but I am glad Glenn goes to the gym. May he stay healthy and live long to fill our minds with critical and intellectual thoughts forever!
Every day!
Love from Stockholm...
I watch you 2 guys every time.
Soothing to my intellect.
Love Glenn...
John too...
Love John...
Glenn too...
Love from Helsinki. Same feelings toward the black guys.
@@SvenErik_Lindstrom3 MITÄ ?
Intellectual moderation and analysis - a much needed dialogue for our age. Appreciate your courage in speaking your truths.
Protect these men at all costs
AMEN!
Good discussion. Be careful when you say "we don't need to hear certain things", though John. I work in child protection across a huge region in the UK and actually we DO deliver training to hundreds of school principals in which we listen to recordings of molesters and their rationale. This among other things helps to fine tune our awareness in identifying the problem. If it helped protect your child you'd think differently. Dealing with it as a polite society option that we don't talk about is naive.
John, you nailed it. I read White Fragility because I’m asking “Am I compliciant?”
Moldbug in 2013: It’s actually not hard to explain the Brown Scare. Like all witch hunts, it’s built on a conspiracy theory. The Red Scare was based on a conspiracy theory too, but at least it was a real conspiracy with real witches-two of whom were my father’s parents. (The nicest people on earth, as people. I like to think of them not as worshipping Stalin, but worshipping what they thought Stalin was.) Moreover, the Red Scare was a largely demotic or peasant phenomenon to which America’s governing intellectual classes were, for obvious reasons, immune. Because power works and culture is downstream from politics-real politics, at least-the Red Scare soon faded into a joke.
As a mainstream conspiracy theory, fully in the institutional saddle, the Brown Scare is far greater and more terrifying. Unfortunately no central statistics are kept, but I wouldn’t be surprised if every day in America, more racists, fascists and sexists are detected, purged and destroyed, than all the screenwriters who had to prosper under pseudonyms in the ’50s. Indeed it’s not an exaggeration to say that hundreds of thousands of Americans, perhaps even a million, are employed in one arm or another of this ideological apparatus. www.unqualified-reservations.org/2013/09/technology-communism-and-brown-scare/
After defending those I don’t know that use the phrase, “All Lives Matter,” friends of mine are now trouncing on me, accusing me personally of being a racist.
My defense, which could very well be sorely misplaced, is this: Black Lives Matter because All Lives Matter.
I’m defending that statement only because I don’t see that statement as a counter argument to BLM...
Of course Black Lives Matter...
So why on earth are people so eager to attack people that make the statement All Lives Matter as an attempt to counter BLM?
I’m hoping to hear an explanation here that I clearly can’t get from my peers...
27:00 John tells Glenn that Glenn should really read a couple chapters of White Fragility lol...
I've been listening to these two over several clips talking about cancel culture, the 1619 project and the like for many hours and have been enlightened. But in truth someday I'd like to hear Glen talk about economics and John talk about the difference between pidgin and creole.
You don't get credit for being the black guy who talks about economics... Being the Anti-PC black guys though... That'll take you far in life.
@@darrellkmalone Yes, I see your point, although to be fair, they didn't agree with each other about the letter.
Darrell Malone They are not grifters, if that’s what you’re implying. They care about what they are talking about. The identitarian left is trying to destroy modernity; that seems like something worth discussing.
@@Individual_Lives_Matter Let's see them discuss anything else then.
I'll wait. I like a lot of the content from Watson. These guys are just playing the same song to keep guys like you coming back...
@@darrellkmalone "...to keep guys like you coming back" And yet, here you are....
Wow academics having a sensible conversation on TH-cam. Very engaging discussion guys, so refreshing to hear you calling out the insulting paternalism of “white fragility”.
Does Glenn ever debate people he doesn't already agree with on this channel? I'd love to watch those videos.
I cannot think of any other two intellectuals that I trust more. There are so many intellectually dishonest grifters. If either of you had a Patreon I’d give you money.
3:15 a truly medieval moment indeed.
I disagree that it’s impossible not to “see color.” Of course you see a person’s skin color, but depending on your worldview, values, life experience, the relationships you’ve had, and the people you’ve lived and worked amongst - you see skin color the same way you see that the sky is blue, or that someone is 6’5” or 5’8,” or has a muscular build, red hair, or a deep voice - a physical characteristic that’s part of who a person is, but not one that you judge or identify them by.
Like John finds “White Fragility” condescending, as a white person, I find the assertion in John’s skepticism of the hypothetical white person who “doesn’t see color” scenario - that a white person (or any other color person) is incapable of interacting with someone who looks differently than they do, without their counterpart’s skin color influencing their response and the interaction - to be offensive - and not because of a need to prove moral purity, but because it implies that my interactions with people are governed by something so superficial.
Enjoyable as always Gentlemen.
At times these days, when I get a little overwhelmed by the sheer verbiage of otherwise intelligent discussion, I find myself wandering into this podcast just to calm down a little - and it always works. Guaranteed to wake up and soothe a questing mind.
A quick question: Could it now be that the "R" word has in some strange way in these strange times, supplanted and replaced the "N" word? In terms of the ability of that R word hurled with appropriate venom and threat, and the power it has over otherwise courageous people who know it actually isn't true or accurate, but realize they have no real way to prove it?
Just a thought. I'll keep this brief because I'm off to the recording studio, and will sojourn there in a decidedly positive frame of mind after being "settled down" a little by your always, exemplary efforts.
Great content. I haven’t watched this show in a while. Has John Mcwhorter changed his tune on Trump due to all that has happened since Biden taking office?
I think I would laugh if someone called me racist. It has been so over used it has no meaning anymore. I believe one or both of you have said you have been called racist proving my point.☹️☹️☹️
"Fauxgressive" is the term I like to think I coined :)
Some amazingly true diatribes in this episode!
I like when Glenn watches the birds and squirrels.
😂 *"SQUIRREL!!"* 💨
40:30 _I don'e believe Mr x when he says he doesn't see color..._ But when you've spent enough time with a diverse group, and you really see no color in yourself nor identify with one, it really is this way... White people don't grow up looking in the mirror saying "now there is A WHITE PERSON" in the reflection. We don't have "white music, film, etc." This line is drawn by the outgroup. There is no analogy in the "white world" of the "black identity." White people don't identify as white. They are handed this label.
. It seems like the real challenge is that the threats to society are coming from both directions. What kind of government can come out of a bipartisan deconstruction of society?
I made the comments below before you talked about witches. Glad you agree.
I always feel smarter watching these two ,,, wish they would speak on what Rutgers is doing with their English department
I think that will come - didn’t McWhorter go to Rutgers?
@@stevecaldwell8740 - 'They gonna teach ebonics '
They play the accordion 😂😂😂 love Glenn and John
I didn’t vote for Trump. I thought he was a joke. I think he’s a bit of an idiot, at times, BUT he is the only presidential candidate that will stand up to the Wokeists.
Serious question: At what cost is Trump pushing back to the wokeists? He sounds nothing like the reasoned pushback of the video and relies on misplaced nostalgia when trying to “own the libs”. I cant help but feel we’re still worse off with him in office
Manoj Vangala Explain your view of “misplaced” nostalgia please. There is an awful lot that was better before than now. Families that were over 75% whole with a married mom and a dad, a very low murder rate, people of all races able to find SOME work (due to no minimum wage) and rise getting better and better work due to cities not being bombed out. The voting act and other anti-discrimination laws were great. Colonialism fell. Nazis were defeated. We reached the moon. After that, it does seem we overdid it and that a wrong turn was taken, with littering, pollution and overall politeness and decency of society having dramatically declined. The only good thing is less racism, but technology seems to have made us more comfortable, but fatter and more brutish and brutal.
roundedges2 If Trump mentioned these, then maybe there’s something to it but he instead spends way too much time scolding athletes for kneeling, defending confederate monuments, and name-calling/trolling on Twitter. His priority seems to be protecting his fragile ego rather than rising above it to make factual claims that might actually help push back the tide of woke-ism
Vote Republican- they aren't perfect but the other side is insane
@@manojvangala2109 - Are you kidding ? He is the only force standing in the way of this woke madness .
That's a bit of a strawman there when he's talking about the truly medieval moment. I don't have any numbers on it and neither would anyone else, but I'd be interested to know how many people made the argument as he described, as opposed to "assuming an equal risk of cornavirus in both cases, being allowed to go to restaurants and movies is not morally equivalent to protesting against racism."
@CalvinSomething
I mean... I dunno if I totally follow you in the second paragraph.
Either there's a broader ethical and moral value to addressing police violence and racial inequality or there isn't. So, to me, it's only if it has the same moral and ethical value as going to Hooters for wings that it should be rhetorically made parallel. There's a theoretically measurable value to police reform, in terms of reducing human suffering and death over time, one that should be considered against doing the same thing to fill your face with popcorn while watching the latest Marvel poop.
They're not morally equivalent, if you are using aggregate human suffering/happiness as your ethical model. I dunno, like I say, I might have misunderstood your second half a bit.
In the UK we we’re told that the lives of the old and the survival of our national health service, required people social distancing. Our media, politicians and police were very very strict about it. Until a case of police brutality happened 4000 miles away on another continent, then suddenly pointing out that large gatherings of BLM protesters pulling down our statues contradicted what we had been being told for months. But the politicians, media and police weren’t interested. It was a worthy cause. COVID19, grandma and the NHS could be risked if it was in the name of anti racism!
This made ZERO sense in the American context. The fact it happened in Britain as well should alert us all to the fact that our civilisations have been deranged by the concept of social justice.
It’s a collective madness.
@@honestjohn6418 lol. I'd agree there are many sources of madness in the world. The fact that so many people are inclined to consider social justice one probably hints at some of actual sources.
@CalvinSomething yeah. so the ethical implications of either choice should be accurately depicted in his analogy.
Microsoft Word Technical Support
So you don’t think it’s indicative of collective madness for the entire British establishment to go from saying COVID19 is an existential threat, we must all stay indoors to save lives and save our beloved NHS from being overwhelmed; to cheering on mass gatherings of far left protestors doing black power salutes and vandalising our heritage?
People literally risking lives to protest racist policing in another country and those protests being welcomed by our media which days earlier had been hounding a government adviser for risking lives by taking a trip during lockdown and our unarmed politically correct police, who days earlier had been zealously enforcing a lockdown, taking a knee and saying BLM were welcome to protest!
That’s not indicative of madness?
It’s thinking that is indicative of madness which is the madness?
I don’t think you are thinking straight.
The concept of social justice has clouded your judgment.
Woke is a good word. It's one they invented as a self-descriptor. But unlike SJW/Social Justice Warrior, which was also a self-descriptor, the term "woke" hasn't been over-applied and neutered like SJW has. There are radical anti-SJWs and far-right people who will call everything remotely liberal "SJW".
But Woke... woke hasn't been used in that way. And even liberal people like Barack Obama have used the word "woke" to call out radical leftists. Therefore, unlike "SJW", they can't dismiss "woke" as a right-wing pejorative for anyone right-wingers don't like.
If you are worried about the term "woke mob"... then you can just say "woke academia" "woke twitter" "woke media" "woke politicians" "woke Hollywood" "woke activists" "woke people", etc.
I see color but try not to let it influence how I treat the person-unless it's in regard to something they may be racially sensitive about. When my teacher colleagues said, "I don't see color", I'm not sure if they are claiming not to notice race (ridiculous) or if they mean that they don't treat people unfairly because of their race. Motivation matters.
i dont see color is more from 20 or 30 years ago. when we said it at that time it meant that the color of your skin doesnt influence how i treat you. i will also say that the whole 'you have to see my color and feel some sort of guilt because of it' is absolute bs
@@pattithompsett9540 Keep calling it out. When collective insanity spreads, the sane people have to keep telling the truth.
Pl - I don't see color means you are not prejudice ... or try hard not to be prejudice .
@@michaelweber5702 That's what it should mean, for sure. Too bad people have twisted everything other people say about race.
Has Glenn ever criticized the far right?
Why does he need to?
@@malvolio01 i just thought that to be fair there HAS to be something he disagrees with the right on. Maybe not 🤔
You said, far right. Which is it?
@@malvolio01 sry "Far Right" it doesn't matter it was just my musings. I still follow Glenn & am informed i try to listen to all sides even tho i lean left most of the time
@@oliviadenson6315 Hi - actually yes he does, insightfully... esp regarding criminal justice reform & incarceration. He gave a moving lecture - I forget for whom, you can Google it, maybe 2016? - in which he tells an anecdote of his younger righteous right-of-center self making Coretta Scott King cry... and feeling like an a**hole for it. I think he's anti-far-anything, R or L.
I don't think it's possible nor desirable to separate pedagogic and therapeutic dimensions of teaching and learning...
In K-12?
I love ya'll
these are some smart dudes
I love these genius witches.
Highlight of this one...
John McWhorter-white guy voice!
Defenestration - I had to look it up, and it's hilarious.
www.wikiwand.com/en/Defenestration
Glenn's son is right.
John is a liberal....I'm confused
He is a sane liberal! I love that they are friends with very differing political views but both agree on the madness!!
@@Nevila-v7n I see
He is a classic Liberal as in 'Liberal Arts', being open to discussing and debating ideas that disagree with his own point of view. The Marxists co-opted the term Liberal and have recent moved on to preferring Progressive to describe themselves.
Mr. Loury's assertion that Donald Trump could not be a threat to democracy simply because he was elected through the democratic process is sheer nonsense.
This is a week old
Wokeism