@@jguerrero447 She did really well, and her "less linguistic knowledge than a linguist" status actually helped her form questions that would occur to the 99% of people who share that level of expertise. McWhorter is one of the best thinkers out there. Smart, honest and has lots of integrity.
BrStFr McWhorter is one of the reasons I went back to Linguistics after diverting into Law for a couple of years. He is one of the linguistics gods I admire.
Natasha did a fantastic job here. John is an intellectual juggernaut and her ability to stay on topic, make good transitions, all while not being intimidated is absolutely commendable.
rodanzig I loved her! She’s so pleasant and welcoming. And her questions are poised as an inquiry rather than a challenge. I bet you she could host for speakers of any ideology and be absolutely neutral. Just how it should be if we hope to learn from each other and debate (and disagree) civilly.
Are you kidding? She's horrible! Not a single question was in response to what he previously said...she just read through a list. He could have read through the list himself...she added nothing by being there. And *_every_* question began with "So...".
J L N she’s an excellent HOST. You’re confusing her with a JOURNALIST. That she is not. She’s not there to pry and challenge unscripted. She’s there to help move the presentation along in a welcoming and enjoyable way. Thumbs up to her on that. IMO
Yes!! You nailed it. This is the second video I have watched with this guy, and that’s exactly what I love about the way he thinks & speaks, and articulates his thoughts.
Not watching the whole thing but very impressed with Ms Natasha's interview skill. Asks the good questions and allows the very bright guest to fully respond. Refreshing these days. Pretty interesting subject as well,, but will take it in pieces. A+
@@jacobjorgenson9285 No, he is not. There is no large swath (I think "swathe" is typically used as a verb now, but I understand that it used to be more commonly used in the form that you are using it) of the Black community that is aware that McWhorter exists.
I am one of those bricks. In the first 3 minutes of this video, I had that lightbulb moment. I finally get it. Thank you. I am so glad I found this video.
What a breath of fresh air. Both interviewer and interviewee speak eloquently. In this day and age, when everyone speaks in parasite words... John's sense of humor is supreme.
Anybody ever notice how well Key and Peele (both biracial) can switch fluidly from one code to the other, during skits? It's part of what makes them so funny.
It's not that people think those who use black English in a job interview are "lesser human beings"; it's that we've accepted that when we speak and work in the professional world, we use a "standard" type of dialect, tone, and language. Just like we shouldn't show up in sweats for a major corporate job, I wouldn't dream of speaking to a client the way I speak to my girlfriends (which involves a lot of cursing), but you know I'm putting on my best smile, direct eye contact, and scrubbed-cleaned English that I learned in English class when my company's money is on the line. Like mom would say: You have your church voice and then you have your home voice. I could listen to Professor McWhorter all day! Measured, interesting, challenging, and thought-provoking.
Very much so. Just like how so many newscasters sound alike. They are speaking standard American English with a Nebraska accent, which sounds the least odd to the most American ears. Just like there is your inside voice and your outside voice. It's when people don't know the difference between the two that things can become awkward.
My teachers (mostly white) never corrected the way I spoke. I went my whole life all the way into college never knowing that I spoke black english. Not until by chance I picked up one of John McWhorter's books in the college library.
And you didn't code-switch when talking in a formal situation to a standard English? Or did not knowing there was such a thing as black English mean you only ever used that variety of English? I'm just curious, English is my second language and I've never been in the US, so all the English I know has been slowly and painfully learned and I want to know how it works for native speakers.
White teachers would not correct the way you talk because they would not feel it is their place. But, I am curious. You never heard non-black people say "ARE you mad?" instead of "Is you mad"? You never read books that were written in standard English? And if so, you did not notice a difference? Did you write the way you speak? And did your teachers correct tense, subject/verb agreement. etc.?
And if the “white” teacher had corrected you they most likely would have had their “white” asses handed to the theirselves on a platter and been accused of being a racist.
I grew up in Trinidad, and there was the broken English that was spoken in conversation, but for academic pursuits, it was mandatory to communicate in standard English which we studied at school. The same grammar, that is now berated by many was a staple of my core learning. For this I am very thankful. I think the problem with so called black English arises from the fact, that students do not study English, and are expected to some how pick up standard English for use in academic work, and that never materializes. At home, my parents never tolerated broken English. My father believed that dialect , did not have the breath of expressions that standard English enabled ; in addition it restricted the development of vocabulary and comprehension of more sophisticated text, and above all dialect was an impediment to clear thinking.
It seems like you brought to this discussion your personal experience and did not spend much time actually listening with an open mind to what Dr. McWhorter was proposing. Linguists tend to be relativists, at least as far as language use goes. This is clearly the case for McWhorter, who at the end of the talk straightforwardly states that the elevation of one type of English as the standard is an "abomination." From a linguistic perspective, there are no "broken" forms of any language. The purpose of language is communication and any language form that effectively communicates is as valid as any other. Your perspective, insofar as I understand it, seems to be more that of an English teacher, or someone who took as law the teachings of their English teacher. That's interesting. I've held tenure as an English professor at both a community college and at a university. (I, in fact, currently hold tenure at a university.) I agree with the linguists that there is no inherent reason why what we call standard English should be considered better than any other form of English. It is a strange notion on its face. There are not better and worse languages and so it follows that because every language has numerous variants within it that those variants are neither better nor worse, neither higher, nor lower. One would need to explain why such a strange notion might be true beyond a simple appeal to authority-- i.e., "This is what I learned in school, therefore this is what is right." That's not much of an argument. That said, I do think that there are practical reasons for some version of English (or any other language) to be classified as a standard. It makes it easier to conduct business, grade essays, etc. But this classification will always be arbitrary and, in my rather deeply informed opinion, other forms of the language should not be cast as "broken."
In what way fascinating? For people who have nothing to do with their time, this is interesting. A total waste of time and very misleading, is what I found.
John was nice enough to correspond with me via email re: his podcast with Glenn Loury. One of the smartest and nicest guys around. Echo that dinner guest request. : )
This reminds me of how American culture is often very disconnected to how people all over the world typically behave in linguistics. Especially when this talk went into code switching. As an American, this is very enlightening to me.
I could listen to the professor describing the layout of his local supermarket and it would probably sound interesting and pleasing to the ears. Charming, engaged, and insightful interviewer.
I love it when there are cajuns speaking on television and they show subtitles. And the whole "job interview level" vs regular speaking level occurs in German as well. There is Umgangsprache which has a pronunciation and vocabulary different from formal language. I might speak Umgangsprache with my three cube mates at work, but it is certainly not what I would speak if I were in a board meeting that afternoon.
sifridbassoon smiling at part of your comment, when I was learning german (hoch deutsch) and my husband speaking Schwäbisch with his family I found it very difficult to understand!
Really really informative. Even quite healing for me personally due to my own very traumatic experiences from transitioning from Russian to English starting in the mid 90's, where I was adopted into a linguistically conservative home. When he said he doesn't believe in standard English and that it is linguistically unsound to impose standard English, I just loved it. Absolutely wonderful to hear this.
If you know more than one language, then you are more intelligent. That's what I've been taught. And it's very true. You can communicate with more people, have access to more places (physically and socially), and have more power.
@@franciscosalanga monolinguals are equally intelligent to their multilingual counterpart. The amount of languages a person knows doesn't determine how smart they are. Indeed, Multilingualism exists cross- Intellectually, meaning there exists at least one monolingual and multilingual person in every Intellectual ability level, from the most Intellectually disabled level to the most Intellectually gifted. But I appreciate the encouragement.
@@sergeyfox2298 I appreciate your thoughtful response. I'll try to be more precise: speaking about language specifically, knowing more than one signifies that you've done work to learn and understand an entirely new set of grammar and linguistic rules. I agree, that doesn't mean someone who knows only one language is unintelligent or incapable. But there is a varied mode of thinking and a deeper understanding when you're able to speak in multiple languages. So, perhaps we can say there is a level of intelligence that should be respected when we come across people who understand multiple languages.
@@franciscosalanga Most people who are Multilingual don't know the technical side of grammar or linguistic rules; generally, that is a learned phenomena not acquired phenomena. In other words, I think you mean to say that those, while not having the technical training in grammar or language rules themselves, yet who acquire the command to utter grammatically normative rules from multiple languages are admirable. Indeed, that's impressive. However, the problem is that the intelligence level of folks who acquire proficiency in multiple languages, meaning the proficiency to acquire receptive and expressive language fluency, assuming any language disorders don't slow down acquisition by impinging on these language acquisition abilities to acquire multiple languages, exists in every general Intellectual ability class. And to be clear, when you refer to Intelligence, I'm assuming you're referring to general Intellectual ability. If this is what you refer too, it is specific Intellectual ability that gives rise to rapid language acquisition of multiple languages. Indeed, secondary or tertiary language acquisition or beyond is likely to be manifest by folks with a specific not general Intellectual ability of verbal ability. of course, under this logic, folks of general Intellectual ability will likely acquire multiple languages, but because of their verbal ability NOT because of their general Intellectual ability itself. From there, One can infer that folks with low general Intellectual ability BUT high specific Intellectual ability in the verbal can rapidly acquire command of multiple languages. with this mind, you're more clear in your reasoning.
@@franciscosalanga and yes, the increased cultural-social empathy of multilinguals tend to be higher. I've seen that with my friends who can speak more than one language.
John is on point here. He approaches the conflicts and issues of Black English vis a vis "Standard English" objectively and without a pollyanna like thought that society will simply drop all stigmitization of it, Great anecdotes as well,
Or maybe he opened you up to an idea that racism in America already taught you didn't exist African American vernacular English is a dialectical form of English that has a set of rules. If you were to ask the average African-American to explain the grammar or syntax of African American vernacular English they would do just that poor of the job explaining it as a white American would while trying to explain those same aspects of Standard American English... most of us tend to understand the rules of our languages but not well enough to teach or explain those rules in great detail. The issue is that racism in American culture socializes us from a young age to see all of which comes from African American culture as either a sign of there intellectual inferiority, sign of their unwillingness to follow rules (aka disobedience) or a byproduct of hip-hop culture (AKA slang). This socialization builds a wall which blocks most Americans from understanding what language is. As children we are taught how to read, write and articulate in English and that is positioned as us being taught what language is. We learn the prescriptive form of English and that stops us from understanding language in an overall descriptive way.
Yes. I grew up in S. C. with a regional accent and had northern teachers in a school that was predominantly of northern origin. I experienced cultural hegemony, though certainly on a weaker level than than Black folks experience it. Made me sympathetic to the Ebonics idea back in the nineties. To this day, I unconsciously (and sometimes consciously) have a varied accent and dialect depending on context. But I think having home talk and academic talk enriches our language and broadens our ability to express ourselves.
Very interesting topic. Years and years ago, when I was trying to learn Arabic, I worked with a Palestinian woman who told me I spoke like a peasant. LOL I must've been learning Egyptian or standard Arabic. When I was married to an Hispanic man we spoke what we called "Spanglish". I've often said when I need to be more professional I speak a certain way, but in my regular life I throw in a lot of slang. Now I know it's "code switching".
I heard Sleepy John Estes’ song Someday Baby, in which he sings “Now look here, baby See what you done done (!) You made me love you, Now your man done come..” I liked all the insights in this video👍🏼
Mourning Star You are trying to demean her by code switching. Let me explain. You referred to what you perceive as leftist, as "cuckboy". That is alternative right code speak. Now in this comment thread, You switched your language, to address Ayisha. You did not use ad hominem, albeit it was demeaning none the less. Further, to add insult upon injury, you added a tagline, "I swear, kids these days." To affirm your insult, and affirm your dominance. See how linguistics works? So, I can affirm, through what this man has spoken on, you are a "right winger", and go as far to say alternative right. You also perceive yourself as such AND perceive yourself as better. It also tells me, you yourself, have been infected by "groupthink". Also, through your two uses of ad hominem, joking or not, it says that you merely possess standard English to eloquate your view. I would describe the alt right as "angry culture." Now, to use code speak slang: HAVE SEVERAL SEATS DOWN!
I feel that "code Switching" is completely relevant when examined in the sociological context. Actually, as early as 1920 W.E.B Du Bois revealed this as an integral part of the double consciousness that Black people in America feel: A schism between their Black self and their American self. I'm certainly not trying to argue though. John McWhorter has incredible insight and is an excellent teacher.
Code switching is common in England amongst Englishmen (and women) of different classes even in the same village, let alone different villages, or different shires.
I remember this so well. Out of hundreds of friends of mine, one other friend and I were on the same understanding of what John met. This topic need to be brought back for discussion.
When other countries learn English, it is Standard English. Few would understand my small culturally based dialect. In my opinion, Standard English assists many understand each other.
Nobody speaks the way they normally do at a job interview. I grew up aware of my mother's "phone voice." I'm now aware of my own. Part of the reason people have professional, interview, phone and other ways of speaking is that you need to be able to communicate with as close to 100% of people as possible, thereby necessitating dropping the X% of dialectal speech that that isn't common. You use more precise, often more wordy speech to convey accurately, rather than being able to use dialectal shortcuts to convey the same thing more quickly, because you can't assume the other person understands your way of speaking. "Standard English" is really just a linguistic razor.
I moved from the South to the PNW. I am white and don't have a super strong accent but I do say "up, done, and had sometimes" "me and my brother / y'all"...mush my words, etc. These ppl are so "tolerant" except towards other cultures in THEIR OWN COUNTRY. I won't ever say "My sister and I" but I will write it,duh.
As someone who was on the other side of this debate (was much younger, dumber and trusting of the news), I really appreciate this video. The media really needs to be put in check!!!!! Had this whole story been presented to us like this back in the day, I would bet money that most people's outlook of the whole ebonics thing would be positive. This is the kind of out the box schooling that is needed these days. It was sold to us by the media as a "replacement" to learning English not as a tool to help people who predominantly speak 1 form of english to learn the form everyone else is learning in school.
Exactly. I'm glad that you approached this discussion with an open mind. McWhorter is not exactly a leftist bent on restructuring American society, something that his commentary also makes clear. Yet he respects and defends what the Oakland school board and the linguists from whom they drew their ideas were trying to do, even as he also notes where their point of view diverges from his. Their intentions were good and their reasoning was sound. Because there are so many uncontrollable variables in any human situation, that isn't always enough to ensure that one's idea will work in a real world situation. Nothing can ensure that. But those educators were doing good work and were grossly maligned.
My mom was born in Anderson SC and I was born in Greenville SC raised in Fort Walton Beach Florida. She spoke with a thick Southern accent. My ex's father thought Southern folk were illiterate because of how they spoke. I don't speak with a thick Southern accent due ti my education and I learned to speak proper English. My wife is Jamaican and speaks fluent standard English or "the Queen's English" as she says. Her parents didn't allow them to speak Patuah (not sure if this is the correct spelling). It has nothing to do with racism. People looked down on me because I am Southern not because I'm white. White people don't look down on black people because they are using Ebonics because we all pick up slang from peers. But if I have a business where my income depends upon how customers perceive what my business is like by how the employee's speak and communicate and the customer's can't understand my employee because they don't speak proper English then that's a problem and I would lose customers.
The adults in the room understand that slang has a place beside standard usage that has nothing to do with the pretense of being a race based and justified language.
Sean L. Eubanks Not sure I’m understanding you, but it sounds like you miss the point. Black English is not slang, it’s a set of alternate grammatical structures. It’s also not “race based,” but a product of culture of a people group.
@@TommyStrategic I'm amused. I bet you also believe what you've been told about it being impossible for "blacks" to be racist. Starting with a language, then adapting it to fit a subculture creates slang, even if it's computer geek tech talk. Tech geeks understand that speaking in TLA's too those outside their field is not useful. Ebonics is slang, grown from poor education to fit a subculture, then justified as something else by racists.
Sean L. Eubanks You are wrong on all counts. Tech geeks do in fact have issues at times using (not slang but) jargon with outsiders. Sales people, athletes, law enforcement: most common professions have some bleeding between their normal conversational vocabulary and the words they use mostly for work. What looks like your take on the origin of Ebonics (aka Black English, or African American Vernacular English) doesn’t line up with what linguists and historians are telling us about its development. It is not a slang of a people that refused to do any better (/s); instead, it’s a fairly recent product of the organic development of a language spoken by people from various African ethnicities who sometimes managed to pass on the syntax of their original languages while using mostly English words and grammar, all during a time English itself is going through a simplification process with respect to its grammar. For Black people, due to the dominant culture’s history of segregating them, Black culture is their actual culture, not a subculture. In that culture, there are ways of speaking that are standard for them and not casual; there is also casual slang. A Black teacher may chastise a student in the Black vernacular, but it would definitely not be slang; preachers may use Black English phrases in their pulpits, but that also would not be slang. Slang is typical of what one hears in hiphop, which, to your point, is a subculture that draws from a larger, more wholistic Black culture. If you heard Ebonics and associated it primarily with hiphop, then you are probably not familiar with the larger, broader, day-to-day culture of Black Americans. In fact, to my mind, you seem really invested that the existence of Black English is /in se/ proof of Black inferiority, while the reality is, how most people speak is less about their innate intelligence and more about the situation they were raised in. Black people were raise by people who were raised by people who were raised by enslaved people who were not afforded the benefit of English lessons when they were forcibly brought to this country and treated like commodities (though some were extremely lucky and were able access some education), so there’s that. Through the generations, Black English has become more like Standard American English in some ways; ironically, the proposed Ebonics curriculum may have sped up that process, but people (white and black) heard that something black was being taught in mostly black schools to black students, and freaked out.
@@TommyStrategic I read your post that strongly suggests that today's reality is the inevitable result of slavery and had a question that I hesitate to pose because of today's artificial and politically enforced racial tensions. I'm aware that Twitter and TH-cam are full of race and rage baiting. I do not participate in trolling of any kind. However, I am old enough to remember our real history that has today been change by misinformation and propaganda. I feel compelled to suggest an alternative view, as this subject falls into one of my interestsand I am well enough to participate in life again. I honestly wonder why the same generational dysfunction you espouse would not apply to the Irish Americans today? Irish immigrants of the same era as slavery overwhelmingly spoke only Gaelic, were dirt poor and uneducated, stood irrevocably apart with an unhideable accent after learning English that marked them as 3rd class citizens, were forced to either become indentured servants of 14+ years or starve, were beaten and raped with impunity and were persecuted and incarcerated by the British back home and by every other culture in America. Yet they both thrived and assimilated through sheer obstinancy, perhaps. Studying their writings of that period is fascinating and it has been too long ago for me to form an acceptable parallel to explain the causess for the different outcome However, welfare could be at it's root.. Perhaps a total immersion in an ironclad and tragic historical claim to victimhood, however valid, does a great disservice to a people in later generations because it glues you to that point of pain and offers no hope of future redemption from that pain. Just so you know, I'm aware this won't be welcome criticism, and you would be correct to say I'm no expert. Yet, I can't help dreaming of a better outcome. As the defacto cultural leaders, I wonder about the incredible impact if rappers could encourage, in their unique way, some more positive life roles instead of drugs, aggression, narcissism and foul language. Could the black community outdo the Asians if they focused on education for their children, got married and raised them as a family unit that sacrificed their own desires to make a better life for their kids as the Asians do? Without a doubt. The black families in my youth were all about faith, respect and discipline. You did not sass your mom and only whispered around your dad. His word was law. Period. I grew up during desegregation and witnessed things were getting better as race became less important, including mixed marriage becoming acceptable for the first time. Then I became disabled for 25 years, was finally diagnosed and healed, but woke up to find my country in chaos and every truth was turned on it's head. News was infected with a pernicious political narrative and education had been hijacked by radical marxist feminists intent on destroying the family unit in order to destroy America. They started with your people and were wildly successful in decimating the black population with easily accessible Planned Parenthood facilities in the most vulnerable black communities - to the tune of an equal amount of black babies aborted to black babies born every year. The black community would have realistically grown to 26% of America's population by now,, nearly a third of the population. I burn when I think of it. I see it as planned extermination because that was PP' founder, Margaret Sanger's, entire purpose when she proposed it. It is an evil practice with an evil purpose . I'm no white knight. I expect no reply. I enjoyed this interview post, read your interesting input, and just wanted to offer another perspective that wasn't politically correct emotional pandering.
Corry Burton Sold by blacks to whom? Freed by whites from whom? Your oversimplification if what was a very complex system of trade doesn’t make for reasonable, civil, or informed discussion. Enjoy your day!
To me, black speak is a way to identify yourself as part of a tribe, or ingroup,or subculture. See how quickly white kids pick it up when hanging out with black friends. Also see how black people respond when one of their own starts speaking standard English and say "What....are you trying to be white or something??" And sadly, the same response is given if the black person studies hard and tries to excel in school. Also, unlike other dialects, black English is for blacks. Theres something wrong about other races using black speak. So it pigeonholes blacks and hampers them integrating into mainstream society.
David R Your perception of how Black English vs Standard English is perceived in the black community is as juvenile as the children you discuss. Black people certainly do expect to hear appropriate grammar in appropriate contexts, and will not automatically associate standard grammar with aspiration toward whiteness. And Black English is not like Esperanto, it wasn’t made up exclusively for Black people; it developed among Black people because of their particular history. Historians have pointed to texts that describe white masters who had black nannies as speaking exactly like black people, and Southern American dialects especially absorb some of the grammar and tonality of Black English. Really though, where did you get these thoughts? The movies?
@BOISE BLACK Are you trying to do a schtick, like Uncle Ruckus or something? Your spelling and grammar are too good to be a far left/right racist, so I'm guessing this is some character you're playing. You really need to learn some humor though, just spewing racism in all caps has little entertainment value.
@@toobnoobify this don't really have anything to do with what your saying it's more to do with the spelling and grammar, and it's association with witchcraft. When schools teach your children to spell using grammar is in reality teaching your children witchcraft. You all know what casting a spell is but not many of you know about the relationship between grammar and grimwar. Grammar and grimwar are the exact same word. A grimwar is a book of spells. Do you see the relationship between spelling and grammar? Or grimwar and spelling?
@V J _"Why were are those anti-discrimination laws passed if there were no need?"_ Yes, racism is bad, but it also isn't 1950 anymore. If you're aware of any current laws that target black people then tell us, because we need to fix that. But you can't name any, because this is the freest place in human history. The reason people from urban black communities do so poorly in society is not because they are black (that applies to racist arguments from the left and right).
I experienced it myself teaching children in an international context. School is very difficult for many children, Latino-American children whose parents spoke dialect at home, have enormous difficulties with Spanish language, it affects the development of vocabulary that will reflect in the school performance if neglected.
I am a teacher in a mostly black high school. Are you saying that we should pretend that college and the workplace will be fine with essays or resumes written without subject/verb agreement or using the wrong tense? Also, what do you think about the difficulty black students have with spelling, punctuation, capitalization and other various problems with grammar? Another issue I see is a very limited vocabulary. Is this also part of ebonics? And lastly, what's with the word "mines", as is "yours, mines and ours", and asking "Is you mad?"" instead of "Are you mad?" How did these phrases come about? Black English was around LONG before rap, btw. Maybe it is the teacher in me, but, I doubt that employers will see a cover letter written ebonics as "angry". I think they will see it as uneducated. If a white or Asian student wrote an essay with all of the issues I outlined above, they would have to re-write it using correct grammar, spelling and punctuation. Employers do not know a person's dialect when reading a resume or cover letter - it is anonymous. Most employers want to hire people who can communicate effectively. If a person is using vocabulary incorrectly and is unable to construct a clear sentence, that person is at a disadvantage. Saying that people should talk anyway they want to seems shortsighted. Communication depends on the other person understanding what you are trying to say. And lastly, our minority students have a very difficult time with reading comprehension. Do you not think that if black students were introduced to reading at a younger age and were introduced to a wider vocabulary at a younger age, that this would not be such a big problem? It is one thing to speak in a dialect - a totally different situation when limited language skills holds a person back from becoming educated to their greatest potential.
Maybe *you* should get an education in basic linguisitcs. Your post makes it clear you have no idea about this field. AAVE is not 'incorrect' or 'wrong' anymore than 'dog' is an incorrect word for 'perro', that's the first thing. Second thing is, neither spelling, nor punctuation, nor captialization are parts of grammar in a scientific sense.
Alaska Natives in off-road villages also have a distinct dialect that may differ from village to village, but is quite similarly variant from standard English. But most of all English speakers speak one way at work/school/church and another way when we're hanging out with friends who are from the same sub-culture.
I agree with this. I guess we could stay that standard English is more for the corporate world but every dialect is for real-life communication with your "sub-culture" as you eloquently put it.
I live in the UK and this is not just a black thing its a dialect thing, you can have someone from London, and someone from Newcastle and even though they are technically both speaking English there will be words and phrases that the other has no idea what it means, and would never use. BUT when they are in school they are taught English the correct way.
Seeing this 2/18/2020. Very good discussion, thank you both. I learned much, understand better. Regarding the "N" word... What understanding you applied to how the word is used contemporarily. It still makes me bristle, too, but I understand more. I'm Native American, and find the discussion fascinating. Generally, languages are fascinating. I have friends from Scotland....when they "go brogue", who can tanslate !! Thanks. Excellent references to historical significance influencing the language.!
Having Americans speak a remarkably consistent form of English is unique in the world and worth preserving. Someone from Tampa sounds just like someone from Seattle as long as they are speaking standard English. I know first hand that slang from Seattle is significantly different than that of Tampa, I worked in a predominantly black area of Seattle and I understood everyone 99.9% of the time without issue, there was a learning curve but I figured it out pretty quick. I worked with a guy who got the amazingly creative nickname of Tampa and at first I could barely understand him and the customers were having a hard time too. He had to revert to standard English to do his job. He adapted in just a few days and he was speaking the same version of English as everyone else which was impressive because it happened so quickly and its not like there is a dictionary, he just soaked it up.
I was thinking the same for many of the young black men who asked questions - but they are speaking in a formal (and multiracial) setting, plus they're all members of the economic elite.
A buddy and I were walking down the street one day, chatting, when a "white" voice came from behind us, jumping into our conversation. When we turned to confront this person, the shock on our faces must've been priceless because he (a black man) burst out laughing and said, "That's right, I'm BLACK!" As we continued walking with him, he explained that he'd grown up in Alaska. Subsequent to this, he became part of our social group. We nicknamed him "Eskimo". From time to time, when I hear black people speaking in a very "black" idiom, I think about Eskimo. He was an interesting example of nature vs nurture.
You can tell a lot about anyone from the way they talk, not just the color of their skin. You can tell their approximate age, the gender, sometimes maybe their sexual orientation, what part of the world they are from, what part of North America they are from, how smart they are, and so much more. Our speech reveals who we are. It's not just about black and white.
That's PREJUDICE! NOT, racism. Racism is the conscious decision to OPPRESS, OR DISCRIMINATE based on the group you assign them to. The average person will give each individual the chance to show who they are in ANY situation that matters. Its PERFECTLY NORMAL AND ACCEPTABLE, to make shorthand assumptions about people, that are common to the group they belong to. I made a video about this a few months ago. th-cam.com/video/e8dEqGWSXyE/w-d-xo.html
Loved this!! I learned a lot of cool things about black culture that I find fascinating. I grew up in the San Francisco Bay Area with a variety of friends from all sorts of cultures. Many of my friends growing up were black and I noticed how they could turn off/on their black English when at school (in class) vs around friends and at lunch. Really good talk.
Culture is about where you’re from and environment, not race There is no “black culture” Also the way you speak is about upbringing and environment Being black don’t make you speak a certain way automatically, accent is learned not inherited, you learn to speak a certain way from what you’re around
A lot of people make fun of the way WHITE southern folks speak english, and it's also considered to be "Bad English". So I don't think there's anything racist about someone thinking the same about "Black English".
As European this being such a big deal in context of scholastic achievement is kinda funny to me. The point isn't to feel homey about it and it really doesn't come natural to anyone. Standard language is about being professional, same as your work clothes or uniform are. I'm Slovenian - we have 8-12 dialect groups with 40, 50-ish dialects. If we go full at-home-spoken dialect, me and someone living 50 km from me, will have serious trouble keeping up more than a basic conversation. So you up your game to the provincial dialect and, if that fails, you keep upping your grammar and phonetics closer and closer to Standard without even thinking about it. From kindergarten you learn "lepa Slovenščina". That saying "Tršica, k lehk grem lulat?" isn't proper and only "Gospa vzgojiteljica, ali smem na stranišče?" will get you to a bathroom. No-one ever complains about their dialect getting them bat grades. XD I mean you could put together a Florentine and a Calabrian, then see just how far your standard Italian will get you when they speak in dialect. Similarly, Germans grow up speaking anything from Schwabian, Silesian to Bavarian, and have to learn proper "Hoch Deutch". And Brits might be from London, Manchester, Liverpool or wherever and proud, but their professional life, be it school or work, is preferably in "Queen's English".
It's safe to make fun of white southern speech because you're making fun of white people. It's NOT acceptable to make fun of the same type of speech from blacks because you get called "racist". It's sad because it holds blacks to a lower standard. Every time I hear blacks speak that way it just makes me sad, as though no one in their life thought they could be taught the same basic English that I was taught.
mrkrabappleson These black leaders are just holding back their own people. Why can Mexicans, Chinese, immigrate here and in one generation no one can tell where the hail from, but, black people cannot grasp English. His argument is weak.
White southern speech is considered bad precisely because of its connection to black English. It developed the way it did largely because of southern whites’ interaction with black slaves and overall black culture. The south has always harbored the most black people and it is by far the most influenced by black culture.
@@rhyca4804 Don't know if this is true but I read that it was the opposite, that black english was influenced from southern english and when black people started to move from the south to up north it stuck culturally.
As a writer I am careful to use proper English except in dialogue where I differentiate my characters with spoken variations. This can get quite creative, as you just about have to read it aloud to understand it. As a southerner I've heard people cram whole sentences into one word. Example: a two syllable word that sounds like "dogbauw" is a reduction of the sentence "What are you talking about?"
Oh, he talks about way more than just linguistics. He's even taught classes outside of linguistics. He does commentary on culture, history, black issues and more. Research him and you'll find he goes beyond linguistics, but no doubt linguistics are his main thing.
I quite enjoy this professor's talks in a variety of topics. That said, his comment about not liking or desiring a standardized English, confounds me. Standardization helps people to communicate more effectively with one another. Standardizing something is a good thing. Anyone ever having remodeled a home prior to industry standards in building practices knows exactly what I mean.
cultural appropriation is a good thing .. it's NOT taking away from one group .. it's COPYING behavior/values which WORK. That's the most efficient way of progress.. condeming "cultural appropriation" is the same as forbidding people to use the internet because they didn't invent it
A lot of the language being used to condemn racism in the US is imprecise, in my opinion. A white boy learning Filipino culture, learning to speak Tagalog, how to cook kilawen, and outwardly wearing a Moro Warrior shirt, shouldn't be condemned as culturally appropriating something. On a lot of levels, he's respecting Filipino culture in a way that some US born Filipinos haven't done. But, in some eyes, that white boy is culturally appropriating. I use that example because I'm partly Filipino, haven't learned how to speak the language. By that, I should be offended if I take such a broad POV. But I don't. On the other hand, if that is indeed cultural appropriation, then there's a positive side to it that makes this conversation more nuanced. Cultural appropriation in itself isn't, then, negative. There has to be other things qualifying it.
And yet this gentleman talks about how we need to be more open to other dialects, Ebonics etc, with perfect spoken English. That irony is not lost on me.
There is no irony. Have you listened to his podcast? He changes how he speaks, just as many of us do. I mix languages when speaking to family or friends who are from my same group, but with other friends I don't. I have Asian friends who said h between Mandarin and English or Korean and English. It is norm
The "N" word is not only used as to refer to a buddy...it is very generic. You will also hear the word when they are referring to people they want to fight enemies etc. The "buddy" idea is an excuse so that other groups don't use it negatively.
6:25 on his point about knowing 99.5% of the time that you’re talking to a black person on the phone, ironically, I first heard John’s voice in another video of him asking Jordan Peterson a question from the audience, out of view, and I felt CONVINCED it a slightly overweight white guy
I came here to see what he looks like because I just finished listening to a series of lectures by him on Audible. And he talks a lot about black English and I was wondering why he was so interested when he sounded white to me. Then when I saw him I thought maybe it's because I'm not from the US that I can't recognize the "black" in the way he sounds. Good to know I'm not the only one.
@BOISE BLACK I think you're a white dude trying to make black people look bad to white people reading this. If you are really black, then you're not doing black people any favors with your racist bullshit.
If I can jump in here for a moment. I agree with the comment on standard English...in the sense that its "standardness" closes down so many things. I don't mind encountering it in good books of excellent scholarly rigor - if that's what I'm looking for. But here in my very cosmopolitan city, I hear English spoken in a thousand different ways, with every accent under the sun. And my aim is to understand it all, because it constantly surprises and delights me, by throwing "butchered" words, phrases and meanings together in a delightfully constructed spoken soup. Some things come across as absolutely poetic, a poetry that standard English would never deliver. Another reason is that I'm a lover of blues and of spiritual music, both of which employ "blacklish" to the hilt. I play and sing the stuff myself, and I cannot imagine singing it in any standard way whatsoever. Perhaps in a perfect world, we'd all be able to become so fluent in our speech that everyone could adjust it according to the time, place and circumstance, seamlessly. But myself, I prefer to focus on the meanings within speech, and let those meanings help me to draw conclusions about the speaker, rather than the style of speech.
This is hilarious: I can assure you that 99.99999% of people annoyed with “black speech” are not thinking: “boy, they use the pluperfect too much.” Haha. Only John would think that. I love it.
All over the world, societies have a prestige or formal version of a language, and common or vernacular versions of that language. In Germany, there's High German and other dialects. In the Middle East, there's formal Arabic and other dialects. In England, there's the received pronunciation and other dialects. And here in the US, there's standard American English, and then there are regional and cultural dialects, including black English, Appalachian English, and so on. In a descriptive view of language, these other dialects are just less prestigious than the formal, national dialect.
I think one thing that was covered incorrectly here is why “standard” English is a thing. It’s not some arbitrary thing. “Standard” English is really just our name for the language that the world’s most powerful and wealthy people use. In order to enjoy the benefits of those powerful and wealthy people, you must speak their language. That’s why almost any luxury hotel in the world will have front desk staff that speak their best approximation of “standard” English. That’s also why it’s also expected to use “standard” English in a job interview of professional setting. It’s the language of power and money. It’s the language that opens doors.
Great conversation - thanks !! There is almost no such thing as “standard” English - but each Anglophone country has traditions which quite arbitrarily come to be regarded as “correct”. US is quite different from UK, which is different from Australia, etc. We all understand each other - but would all choose rather different ways to select optimal formal language. This is changing all the time - but certainly not going away any time soon. There is a degree of international “overlap” - but not nearly as much as you might think. The thing about “interview” English is not that there is a right and wrong, but that it should be receiver-appropriate. If you are applying for a Civil Service job, you HAVE to speak differently than if you are competing for a plumbing vacancy. You need to project what the interviewer is hoping to hear - and demonstrate the attitude the position requires. This is a skill which cannot be taught - it has to be LEARNT from experience. Educated people can struggle with this - in some situations - every bit as much as more intellectually average folks.
17:45 but I think other races do that too. Everyone becomes proper (or “formal” like he said I think that’s a better word for it) during a job interview if they’re interested in the job.
Well, as he said later on, American English is very unique in that it is relatively homogenous. So the few dialects that really stand out (like black english or the hardcore southern accents) and "force" people to switch between standard english and their dialect lead to this idea that it is somehow racist because black. But go anywhere else in the world and you find that it is completely normal to not only switch your dialect on and of, but to have it on a kind of gradient of intensity. Just take the UK dialects of the south coast of England and the northcost of Scotland. If people were not able to switch off/gradiate their accents, they could not talk to each other. As in the UK, here in Germany everybody has to switch and gradiate all the time (not only in job interviews) when they talk with people from all over the place because the dialects are SO different that they become incomprehensible, the more people lean into them.
A white person cannot got into a job interview and say, "I seen them fliers you posted and came to apply". That may have been the non-standard English spoken in their home, but since dtandard English is taught in the schools along with standard math snd standard science, we're expected to know it. It is also not kept a dark secret as it once might have been when we were geographically distant or so socially stratified that the working classes never heard standard English being spoken. Reasonably decent English is used on television and can be learned from example.
I have to disagree with McWhorter on the "you can't speak that way at a job interview" comment. He says he bridles at the phrase, and counters with "no one said they wanted to." But they do. Many, many young black Americans have no idea that they are revealing a lack of education during a job interview, or other professional interactions, and speak EXACTLY that way. How could they do otherwise? The problem is not that Black American language exists, all languages in all countries have always developed dialects. That happens. The problem is that Americans do not have a proper English language that they are trained to use in certain situations. We need a MUCH better education system that promotes a professional and useful English that can be added to the toolbox of all American children. NOT train them that any old way of comfortably chatting with friends is the only method we can use.
27:37 I'm relieved that McWhorter said we can't fix the usage of Nigga by others. Black people have to let it go. The people who want to reserve the right to be offended by the word regardless of how it is being used is being dishonest and they are out of luck. I'm black.
I'm from Newfoundland, Canada. John would have a field day with our rural & urban dialects/grammar...or have a stroke...I'm not sure which...preferably the former and not the latter.
He is one of the people I would love to have as a dinner guest to speak with him for a few hours. The interviewer did a terrific job.
B in B i made a post on another video of him saying something similar. He for sure would make a great dinner guest. :)
The interviewer was a "little in-over-her-head" but she was earnest and unassuming and he was gracious. So it was a great interview.
@@jguerrero447 She did really well, and her "less linguistic knowledge than a linguist" status actually helped her form questions that would occur to the 99% of people who share that level of expertise. McWhorter is one of the best thinkers out there. Smart, honest and has lots of integrity.
BrStFr McWhorter is one of the reasons I went back to Linguistics after diverting into Law for a couple of years. He is one of the linguistics gods I admire.
A few hours wouldn't be enough.
Natasha did a fantastic job here. John is an intellectual juggernaut and her ability to stay on topic, make good transitions, all while not being intimidated is absolutely commendable.
Except for her sibilant "s" made her sound like a hissing snake making this unlissssstenable.
@@lisad2701 I listened. It wasn't "unlistenable."
I like the etymology of the word "juggernaut". en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juggernaut
@@lisad2701 speech impediments are truly difficult to ignore but should never be made fun of…..
@@koelnkorrekt you’re right. But English definition means destructive. This man might be that in the sense of iconoclastic opinion.
She is a great interviewer . No interruptions to say "I'm smart too" , and she let's her subject develop his theme and explain it .
"I'm smart too" so true of many interviewers
rodanzig I loved her! She’s so pleasant and welcoming. And her questions are poised as an inquiry rather than a challenge. I bet you she could host for speakers of any ideology and be absolutely neutral. Just how it should be if we hope to learn from each other and debate (and disagree) civilly.
I would like to see her interview Jared Taylor .@@DavidEColon
Are you kidding? She's horrible! Not a single question was in response to what he previously said...she just read through a list. He could have read through the list himself...she added nothing by being there. And *_every_* question began with "So...".
J L N she’s an excellent HOST. You’re confusing her with a JOURNALIST. That she is not. She’s not there to pry and challenge unscripted. She’s there to help move the presentation along in a welcoming and enjoyable way. Thumbs up to her on that. IMO
I love the way this man thinks.
He is always nuanced in his thoughts.
Yes!! You nailed it. This is the second video I have watched with this guy, and that’s exactly what I love about the way he thinks & speaks, and articulates his thoughts.
Yes! “Nuanced” is exactly the word for his approach to language and culture and race. He demands a lot of flexible thinking from his audience.
This man saved me from despair in 2020. I am forever in debt to Professor John McWhorter!
he has that kind of voice you could listen to all day.
That knowledge was exceedingly well-dropped
Not watching the whole thing but very impressed with Ms Natasha's interview skill. Asks the good questions and allows the very bright guest to fully respond. Refreshing these days. Pretty interesting subject as well,, but will take it in pieces. A+
Its not refreshing, its the Standard, stop watching just reactionary compilations. EYPSIN.
I admire John McWhorter so much. What a mind.
And he's considered a sellout in large swathes of the black community
@@jacobjorgenson9285 it's a foreign language to many.
@@jacobjorgenson9285 No, he is not. There is no large swath (I think "swathe" is typically used as a verb now, but I understand that it used to be more commonly used in the form that you are using it) of the Black community that is aware that McWhorter exists.
i loved this so much.
he's got such a reasoned, balanced, sensible thought process to arriving at conclusions.
I am one of those bricks. In the first 3 minutes of this video, I had that lightbulb moment. I finally get it. Thank you. I am so glad I found this video.
What a breath of fresh air. Both interviewer and interviewee speak eloquently. In this day and age, when everyone speaks in parasite words...
John's sense of humor is supreme.
Anybody ever notice how well Key and Peele (both biracial) can switch fluidly from one code to the other, during skits? It's part of what makes them so funny.
Yeah, but they also switch to LA Chicano, upper class British, all sorts
Who are Key and Peele?? 😐😐😐😐
@@porkypig2971 Comedians. Type their name into TH-cam and you will get millions of their clips. They are pretty funny
It's not that people think those who use black English in a job interview are "lesser human beings"; it's that we've accepted that when we speak and work in the professional world, we use a "standard" type of dialect, tone, and language. Just like we shouldn't show up in sweats for a major corporate job, I wouldn't dream of speaking to a client the way I speak to my girlfriends (which involves a lot of cursing), but you know I'm putting on my best smile, direct eye contact, and scrubbed-cleaned English that I learned in English class when my company's money is on the line. Like mom would say: You have your church voice and then you have your home voice.
I could listen to Professor McWhorter all day! Measured, interesting, challenging, and thought-provoking.
Very much so. Just like how so many newscasters sound alike. They are speaking standard American English with a Nebraska accent, which sounds the least odd to the most American ears. Just like there is your inside voice and your outside voice. It's when people don't know the difference between the two that things can become awkward.
My teachers (mostly white) never corrected the way I spoke. I went my whole life all the way into college never knowing that I spoke black english. Not until by chance I picked up one of John McWhorter's books in the college library.
And you didn't code-switch when talking in a formal situation to a standard English? Or did not knowing there was such a thing as black English mean you only ever used that variety of English? I'm just curious, English is my second language and I've never been in the US, so all the English I know has been slowly and painfully learned and I want to know how it works for native speakers.
White teachers would not correct the way you talk because they would not feel it is their place. But, I am curious. You never heard non-black people say "ARE you mad?" instead of "Is you mad"? You never read books that were written in standard English? And if so, you did not notice a difference? Did you write the way you speak? And did your teachers correct tense, subject/verb agreement. etc.?
Exactly!@rockster10101
And if the “white” teacher had corrected you they most likely would have had their “white” asses handed to the theirselves on a platter and been accused of being a racist.
Blinglish.
His, BESTEST video...EVA !!!
BY FAR !!! TY 🎯🎯🎯
*YOU "DONE" LOST YO' MIND...* LOL 😆😂😆😂😆😂
have enjoyed listening to McWhorter
I grew up in Trinidad, and there was the broken English that was spoken in conversation, but for academic pursuits, it was mandatory to communicate in standard English which we studied at school. The same grammar, that is now berated by many was a staple of my core learning. For this I am very thankful. I think the problem with so called black English arises from the fact, that students do not study English, and are expected to some how pick up standard English for use in academic work, and that never materializes.
At home, my parents never tolerated broken English. My father believed that dialect , did not have the breath of expressions that standard English enabled ; in addition it restricted the development of vocabulary and comprehension of more sophisticated text, and above all dialect was an impediment to clear thinking.
It seems like you brought to this discussion your personal experience and did not spend much time actually listening with an open mind to what Dr. McWhorter was proposing. Linguists tend to be relativists, at least as far as language use goes. This is clearly the case for McWhorter, who at the end of the talk straightforwardly states that the elevation of one type of English as the standard is an "abomination." From a linguistic perspective, there are no "broken" forms of any language. The purpose of language is communication and any language form that effectively communicates is as valid as any other.
Your perspective, insofar as I understand it, seems to be more that of an English teacher, or someone who took as law the teachings of their English teacher. That's interesting. I've held tenure as an English professor at both a community college and at a university. (I, in fact, currently hold tenure at a university.) I agree with the linguists that there is no inherent reason why what we call standard English should be considered better than any other form of English. It is a strange notion on its face. There are not better and worse languages and so it follows that because every language has numerous variants within it that those variants are neither better nor worse, neither higher, nor lower. One would need to explain why such a strange notion might be true beyond a simple appeal to authority-- i.e., "This is what I learned in school, therefore this is what is right." That's not much of an argument.
That said, I do think that there are practical reasons for some version of English (or any other language) to be classified as a standard. It makes it easier to conduct business, grade essays, etc. But this classification will always be arbitrary and, in my rather deeply informed opinion, other forms of the language should not be cast as "broken."
This was a VERY fascinating conversation!
In what way fascinating? For people who have nothing to do with their time, this is interesting. A total waste of time and very misleading, is what I found.
John McWhorter for Secretary of Education! This gentleman defines the linguistic issues with truth and understanding.
John was nice enough to correspond with me via email re: his podcast with Glenn Loury. One of the smartest and nicest guys around. Echo that dinner guest request. : )
Great discussion and even greater Q&A, Prof. John McWhorter! Mr. McWhorter's fine sense of humor really shines through!
This guy is remarkably articulate and well-informed.
I have such an intellectual crush on him. When he speaks, it's spell-binding!
I speak like that as well 😉😂
me too
as do i🤣😂🤣😂
amen!
You should hear Coleman Hughes and Sam Harris.
This reminds me of how American culture is often very disconnected to how people all over the world typically behave in linguistics. Especially when this talk went into code switching. As an American, this is very enlightening to me.
I could listen to the professor describing the layout of his local supermarket and it would probably sound interesting and pleasing to the ears. Charming, engaged, and insightful interviewer.
Mr McWhorter : i love you bro
a real hero in advancing intellegence & diminishing destablizing myths
iam black
and you can't spell
Wow. Never knew linguistics could be so fascinating.
Check out his podcast.
Check out his Great Courses courses (I know that sounds stupid) it's amazing.
I love it when there are cajuns speaking on television and they show subtitles. And the whole "job interview level" vs regular speaking level occurs in German as well. There is Umgangsprache which has a pronunciation and vocabulary different from formal language. I might speak Umgangsprache with my three cube mates at work, but it is certainly not what I would speak if I were in a board meeting that afternoon.
sifridbassoon smiling at part of your comment, when I was learning german (hoch deutsch) and my husband speaking Schwäbisch with his family I found it very difficult to understand!
Thank God,there are still some smart people in America!
Really really informative. Even quite healing for me personally due to my own very traumatic experiences from transitioning from Russian to English starting in the mid 90's, where I was adopted into a linguistically conservative home.
When he said he doesn't believe in standard English and that it is linguistically unsound to impose standard English, I just loved it. Absolutely wonderful to hear this.
If you know more than one language, then you are more intelligent. That's what I've been taught. And it's very true. You can communicate with more people, have access to more places (physically and socially), and have more power.
@@franciscosalanga monolinguals are equally intelligent to their multilingual counterpart. The amount of languages a person knows doesn't determine how smart they are. Indeed, Multilingualism exists cross- Intellectually, meaning there exists at least one monolingual and multilingual person in every Intellectual ability level, from the most Intellectually disabled level to the most Intellectually gifted.
But I appreciate the encouragement.
@@sergeyfox2298 I appreciate your thoughtful response. I'll try to be more precise: speaking about language specifically, knowing more than one signifies that you've done work to learn and understand an entirely new set of grammar and linguistic rules.
I agree, that doesn't mean someone who knows only one language is unintelligent or incapable. But there is a varied mode of thinking and a deeper understanding when you're able to speak in multiple languages.
So, perhaps we can say there is a level of intelligence that should be respected when we come across people who understand multiple languages.
@@franciscosalanga Most people who are Multilingual don't know the technical side of grammar or linguistic rules; generally, that is a learned phenomena not acquired phenomena. In other words, I think you mean to say that those, while not having the technical training in grammar or language rules themselves, yet who acquire the command to utter grammatically normative rules from multiple languages are admirable. Indeed, that's impressive.
However, the problem is that the intelligence level of folks who acquire proficiency in multiple languages, meaning the proficiency to acquire receptive and expressive language fluency, assuming any language disorders don't slow down acquisition by impinging on these language acquisition abilities to acquire multiple languages, exists in every general Intellectual ability class.
And to be clear, when you refer to Intelligence, I'm assuming you're referring to general Intellectual ability. If this is what you refer too, it is specific Intellectual ability that gives rise to rapid language acquisition of multiple languages. Indeed, secondary or tertiary language acquisition or beyond is likely to be manifest by folks with a specific not general Intellectual ability of verbal ability. of course, under this logic, folks of general Intellectual ability will likely acquire multiple languages, but because of their verbal ability NOT because of their general Intellectual ability itself.
From there, One can infer that folks with low general Intellectual ability BUT high specific Intellectual ability in the verbal can rapidly acquire command of multiple languages.
with this mind, you're more clear in your reasoning.
@@franciscosalanga and yes, the increased cultural-social empathy of multilinguals tend to be higher. I've seen that with my friends who can speak more than one language.
John is on point here. He approaches the conflicts and issues of Black English vis a vis "Standard English" objectively and without a pollyanna like thought that society will simply drop all stigmitization of it, Great anecdotes as well,
I love even the sound of McWhorter’s voice.
"if one can hear black english and think it's not junk", well you certainly convinced me, I completely changed my opinion after listening to you
Or maybe he opened you up to an idea that racism in America already taught you didn't exist
African American vernacular English is a dialectical form of English that has a set of rules. If you were to ask the average African-American to explain the grammar or syntax of African American vernacular English they would do just that poor of the job explaining it as a white American would while trying to explain those same aspects of Standard American English... most of us tend to understand the rules of our languages but not well enough to teach or explain those rules in great detail. The issue is that racism in American culture socializes us from a young age to see all of which comes from African American culture as either a sign of there intellectual inferiority, sign of their unwillingness to follow rules (aka disobedience) or a byproduct of hip-hop culture (AKA slang). This socialization builds a wall which blocks most Americans from understanding what language is. As children we are taught how to read, write and articulate in English and that is positioned as us being taught what language is. We learn the prescriptive form of English and that stops us from understanding language in an overall descriptive way.
My Appalachian roots resonated with just about everything that Professor McWhorter said!
Yes. I grew up in S. C. with a regional accent and had northern teachers in a school that was predominantly of northern origin. I experienced cultural hegemony, though certainly on a weaker level than than Black folks experience it. Made me sympathetic to the Ebonics idea back in the nineties. To this day, I unconsciously (and sometimes consciously) have a varied accent and dialect depending on context. But I think having home talk and academic talk enriches our language and broadens our ability to express ourselves.
Very much
Very interesting topic. Years and years ago, when I was trying to learn Arabic, I worked with a Palestinian woman who told me I spoke like a peasant. LOL I must've been learning Egyptian or standard Arabic. When I was married to an Hispanic man we spoke what we called "Spanglish". I've often said when I need to be more professional I speak a certain way, but in my regular life I throw in a lot of slang. Now I know it's "code switching".
This comment is basically the secret. If you work in customer service sometimes code switching helps calms to calm certain situations.
I heard Sleepy John Estes’ song Someday Baby, in which he sings
“Now look here, baby
See what you done done (!)
You made me love you,
Now your man done come..”
I liked all the insights in this video👍🏼
Yeah, but that OK: we loves the blues.
She is a great interviewer. With a beautiful smile!
Done gave a great talk. Enjoyed it very much.
Mourning Star ⁉️
Mourning Star You are trying to demean her by code switching.
Let me explain. You referred to what you perceive as leftist, as "cuckboy". That is alternative right code speak.
Now in this comment thread, You switched your language, to address Ayisha. You did not use ad hominem, albeit it was demeaning none the less.
Further, to add insult upon injury, you added a tagline, "I swear, kids these days."
To affirm your insult, and affirm your dominance.
See how linguistics works?
So, I can affirm, through what this man has spoken on, you are a "right winger", and go as far to say alternative right.
You also perceive yourself as such AND perceive yourself as better.
It also tells me, you yourself, have been infected by "groupthink".
Also, through your two uses of ad hominem, joking or not, it says that you merely possess standard English to eloquate your view.
I would describe the alt right as "angry culture."
Now, to use code speak slang:
HAVE SEVERAL SEATS DOWN!
Mourning Star point made...I knew you'd get angry.
Mourning Star lol...point made...TWICE!
...all up in here.
Both are fantastic at getting their points across in a eloquent manner. I enjoyed their conversation from beginning to end.
Yes, indeed! You’re also an expert in languages like Spanish too, yes?
I feel that "code Switching" is completely relevant when examined in the sociological context. Actually, as early as 1920 W.E.B Du Bois revealed this as an integral part of the double consciousness that Black people in America feel: A schism between their Black self and their American self. I'm certainly not trying to argue though. John McWhorter has incredible insight and is an excellent teacher.
William Robbins I don’t think he would disagree with you about code-switching. It’s a thing.
Code switching is common in England amongst Englishmen (and women) of different classes even in the same village, let alone different villages, or different shires.
I remember this so well. Out of hundreds of friends of mine, one other friend and I were on the same understanding of what John met. This topic need to be brought back for discussion.
When other countries learn English, it is Standard English. Few would understand my small culturally based dialect. In my opinion, Standard English assists many understand each other.
Nobody speaks the way they normally do at a job interview. I grew up aware of my mother's "phone voice." I'm now aware of my own.
Part of the reason people have professional, interview, phone and other ways of speaking is that you need to be able to communicate with as close to 100% of people as possible, thereby necessitating dropping the X% of dialectal speech that that isn't common. You use more precise, often more wordy speech to convey accurately, rather than being able to use dialectal shortcuts to convey the same thing more quickly, because you can't assume the other person understands your way of speaking.
"Standard English" is really just a linguistic razor.
I moved from the South to the PNW. I am white and don't have a super strong accent but I do say "up, done, and had sometimes" "me and my brother / y'all"...mush my words, etc. These ppl are so "tolerant" except towards other cultures in THEIR OWN COUNTRY. I won't ever say "My sister and I" but I will write it,duh.
So American English is way more interesting than I was expecting. Awesome interview
As someone who was on the other side of this debate (was much younger, dumber and trusting of the news), I really appreciate this video. The media really needs to be put in check!!!!! Had this whole story been presented to us like this back in the day, I would bet money that most people's outlook of the whole ebonics thing would be positive. This is the kind of out the box schooling that is needed these days. It was sold to us by the media as a "replacement" to learning English not as a tool to help people who predominantly speak 1 form of english to learn the form everyone else is learning in school.
Exactly. I'm glad that you approached this discussion with an open mind. McWhorter is not exactly a leftist bent on restructuring American society, something that his commentary also makes clear. Yet he respects and defends what the Oakland school board and the linguists from whom they drew their ideas were trying to do, even as he also notes where their point of view diverges from his.
Their intentions were good and their reasoning was sound. Because there are so many uncontrollable variables in any human situation, that isn't always enough to ensure that one's idea will work in a real world situation. Nothing can ensure that. But those educators were doing good work and were grossly maligned.
My mom was born in Anderson SC and I was born in Greenville SC raised in Fort Walton Beach Florida. She spoke with a thick Southern accent. My ex's father thought Southern folk were illiterate because of how they spoke. I don't speak with a thick Southern accent due ti my education and I learned to speak proper English. My wife is Jamaican and speaks fluent standard English or "the Queen's English" as she says. Her parents didn't allow them to speak Patuah (not sure if this is the correct spelling). It has nothing to do with racism. People looked down on me because I am Southern not because I'm white. White people don't look down on black people because they are using Ebonics because we all pick up slang from peers. But if I have a business where my income depends upon how customers perceive what my business is like by how the employee's speak and communicate and the customer's can't understand my employee because they don't speak proper English then that's a problem and I would lose customers.
The adults in the room understand that slang has a place beside standard usage that has nothing to do with the pretense of being a race based and justified language.
Sean L. Eubanks Not sure I’m understanding you, but it sounds like you miss the point. Black English is not slang, it’s a set of alternate grammatical structures. It’s also not “race based,” but a product of culture of a people group.
@@TommyStrategic I'm amused. I bet you also believe what you've been told about it being impossible for "blacks" to be racist.
Starting with a language, then adapting it to fit a subculture creates slang, even if it's computer geek tech talk.
Tech geeks understand that speaking in TLA's too those outside their field is not useful.
Ebonics is slang, grown from poor education to fit a subculture, then justified as something else by racists.
Sean L. Eubanks You are wrong on all counts. Tech geeks do in fact have issues at times using (not slang but) jargon with outsiders. Sales people, athletes, law enforcement: most common professions have some bleeding between their normal conversational vocabulary and the words they use mostly for work.
What looks like your take on the origin of Ebonics (aka Black English, or African American Vernacular English) doesn’t line up with what linguists and historians are telling us about its development. It is not a slang of a people that refused to do any better (/s); instead, it’s a fairly recent product of the organic development of a language spoken by people from various African ethnicities who sometimes managed to pass on the syntax of their original languages while using mostly English words and grammar, all during a time English itself is going through a simplification process with respect to its grammar.
For Black people, due to the dominant culture’s history of segregating them, Black culture is their actual culture, not a subculture. In that culture, there are ways of speaking that are standard for them and not casual; there is also casual slang. A Black teacher may chastise a student in the Black vernacular, but it would definitely not be slang; preachers may use Black English phrases in their pulpits, but that also would not be slang.
Slang is typical of what one hears in hiphop, which, to your point, is a subculture that draws from a larger, more wholistic Black culture. If you heard Ebonics and associated it primarily with hiphop, then you are probably not familiar with the larger, broader, day-to-day culture of Black Americans. In fact, to my mind, you seem really invested that the existence of Black English is /in se/ proof of Black inferiority, while the reality is, how most people speak is less about their innate intelligence and more about the situation they were raised in. Black people were raise by people who were raised by people who were raised by enslaved people who were not afforded the benefit of English lessons when they were forcibly brought to this country and treated like commodities (though some were extremely lucky and were able access some education), so there’s that.
Through the generations, Black English has become more like Standard American English in some ways; ironically, the proposed Ebonics curriculum may have sped up that process, but people (white and black) heard that something black was being taught in mostly black schools to black students, and freaked out.
@@TommyStrategic I read your post that strongly suggests that today's reality is the inevitable result of slavery and had a question that I hesitate to pose because of today's artificial and politically enforced racial tensions. I'm aware that Twitter and TH-cam are full of race and rage baiting. I do not participate in trolling of any kind.
However, I am old enough to remember our real history that has today been change by misinformation and propaganda. I feel compelled to suggest an alternative view, as this subject falls into one of my interestsand I am well enough to participate in life again.
I honestly wonder why the same generational dysfunction you espouse would not apply to the Irish Americans today? Irish immigrants of the same era as slavery overwhelmingly spoke only Gaelic, were dirt poor and uneducated, stood irrevocably apart with an unhideable accent after learning English that marked them as 3rd class citizens, were forced to either become indentured servants of 14+ years or starve, were beaten and raped with impunity and were persecuted and incarcerated by the British back home and by every other culture in America. Yet they both thrived and assimilated through sheer obstinancy, perhaps. Studying their writings of that period is fascinating and it has been too long ago for me to form an acceptable parallel to explain the causess for the different outcome
However, welfare could be at it's root..
Perhaps a total immersion in an ironclad and tragic historical claim to victimhood, however valid, does a great disservice to a people in later generations because it glues you to that point of pain and offers no hope of future redemption from that pain.
Just so you know, I'm aware this won't be welcome criticism, and you would be correct to say I'm no expert.
Yet, I can't help dreaming of a better outcome. As the defacto cultural leaders, I wonder about the incredible impact if rappers could encourage, in their unique way, some more positive life roles instead of drugs, aggression, narcissism and foul language.
Could the black community outdo the Asians if they focused on education for their children, got married and raised them as a family unit that sacrificed their own desires to make a better life for their kids as the Asians do? Without a doubt.
The black families in my youth were all about faith, respect and discipline. You did not sass your mom and only whispered around your dad. His word was law. Period.
I grew up during desegregation and witnessed things were getting better as race became less important, including mixed marriage becoming acceptable for the first time. Then I became disabled for 25 years, was finally diagnosed and healed, but woke up to find my country in chaos and every truth was turned on it's head.
News was infected with a pernicious political narrative and education had been hijacked by radical marxist feminists intent on destroying the family unit in order to destroy America.
They started with your people and were wildly successful in decimating the black population with easily accessible Planned Parenthood facilities in the most vulnerable black communities - to the tune of an equal amount of black babies aborted to black babies born every year. The black community would have realistically grown to 26% of America's population by now,, nearly a third of the population. I burn when I think of it. I see it as planned extermination because that was PP' founder, Margaret Sanger's, entire purpose when she proposed it. It is an evil practice with an evil purpose .
I'm no white knight. I expect no reply. I enjoyed this interview post, read your interesting input, and just wanted to offer another perspective that wasn't politically correct emotional pandering.
Corry Burton Sold by blacks to whom? Freed by whites from whom? Your oversimplification if what was a very complex system of trade doesn’t make for reasonable, civil, or informed discussion. Enjoy your day!
This was a wonderfully balanced talk: the presentation, the conversation, the participation.
To me, black speak is a way to identify yourself as part of a tribe, or ingroup,or subculture. See how quickly white kids pick it up when hanging out with black friends. Also see how black people respond when one of their own starts speaking standard English and say "What....are you trying to be white or something??" And sadly, the same response is given if the black person studies hard and tries to excel in school.
Also, unlike other dialects, black English is for blacks. Theres something wrong about other races using black speak. So it pigeonholes blacks and hampers them integrating into mainstream society.
David R Your perception of how Black English vs Standard English is perceived in the black community is as juvenile as the children you discuss. Black people certainly do expect to hear appropriate grammar in appropriate contexts, and will not automatically associate standard grammar with aspiration toward whiteness. And Black English is not like Esperanto, it wasn’t made up exclusively for Black people; it developed among Black people because of their particular history. Historians have pointed to texts that describe white masters who had black nannies as speaking exactly like black people, and Southern American dialects especially absorb some of the grammar and tonality of Black English.
Really though, where did you get these thoughts? The movies?
@BOISE BLACK sure buddy
@BOISE BLACK Are you trying to do a schtick, like Uncle Ruckus or something? Your spelling and grammar are too good to be a far left/right racist, so I'm guessing this is some character you're playing. You really need to learn some humor though, just spewing racism in all caps has little entertainment value.
@@toobnoobify this don't really have anything to do with what your saying it's more to do with the spelling and grammar, and it's association with witchcraft. When schools teach your children to spell using grammar is in reality teaching your children witchcraft. You all know what casting a spell is but not many of you know about the relationship between grammar and grimwar. Grammar and grimwar are the exact same word. A grimwar is a book of spells. Do you see the relationship between spelling and grammar? Or grimwar and spelling?
@V J _"Why were are those anti-discrimination laws passed if there were no need?"_
Yes, racism is bad, but it also isn't 1950 anymore. If you're aware of any current laws that target black people then tell us, because we need to fix that. But you can't name any, because this is the freest place in human history.
The reason people from urban black communities do so poorly in society is not because they are black (that applies to racist arguments from the left and right).
I experienced it myself teaching children in an international context. School is very difficult for many children, Latino-American children whose parents spoke dialect at home, have enormous difficulties with Spanish language, it affects the development of vocabulary that will reflect in the school performance if neglected.
Wow. This was absolutely fascinating!
I am a teacher in a mostly black high school. Are you saying that we should pretend that college and the workplace will be fine with essays or resumes written without subject/verb agreement or using the wrong tense? Also, what do you think about the difficulty black students have with spelling, punctuation, capitalization and other various problems with grammar? Another issue I see is a very limited vocabulary. Is this also part of ebonics? And lastly, what's with the word "mines", as is "yours, mines and ours", and asking "Is you mad?"" instead of "Are you mad?" How did these phrases come about?
Black English was around LONG before rap, btw. Maybe it is the teacher in me, but, I doubt that employers will see a cover letter written ebonics as "angry". I think they will see it as uneducated. If a white or Asian student wrote an essay with all of the issues I outlined above, they would have to re-write it using correct grammar, spelling and punctuation. Employers do not know a person's dialect when reading a resume or cover letter - it is anonymous. Most employers want to hire people who can communicate effectively. If a person is using vocabulary incorrectly and is unable to construct a clear sentence, that person is at a disadvantage. Saying that people should talk anyway they want to seems shortsighted. Communication depends on the other person understanding what you are trying to say.
And lastly, our minority students have a very difficult time with reading comprehension. Do you not think that if black students were introduced to reading at a younger age and were introduced to a wider vocabulary at a younger age, that this would not be such a big problem? It is one thing to speak in a dialect - a totally different situation when limited language skills holds a person back from becoming educated to their greatest potential.
did you actually watch this? ..you missed the point
Maybe *you* should get an education in basic linguisitcs. Your post makes it clear you have no idea about this field. AAVE is not 'incorrect' or 'wrong' anymore than 'dog' is an incorrect word for 'perro', that's the first thing. Second thing is, neither spelling, nor punctuation, nor captialization are parts of grammar in a scientific sense.
Sounds like you stopped watching and commented too early
@@allenthomas7755 explain
@@BigBad-Wolf but how does that not come into play when doing essays or cover letters
Alaska Natives in off-road villages also have a distinct dialect that may differ from village to village, but is quite similarly variant from standard English.
But most of all English speakers speak one way at work/school/church and another way when we're hanging out with friends who are from the same sub-culture.
I agree with this. I guess we could stay that standard English is more for the corporate world but every dialect is for real-life communication with your "sub-culture" as you eloquently put it.
I live in the UK and this is not just a black thing its a dialect thing, you can have someone from London, and someone from Newcastle and even though they are technically both speaking English there will be words and phrases that the other has no idea what it means, and would never use. BUT when they are in school they are taught English the correct way.
Seeing this 2/18/2020. Very good discussion, thank you both. I learned much, understand better. Regarding the "N" word... What understanding you applied to how the word is used contemporarily. It still makes me bristle, too, but I understand more. I'm Native American, and find the discussion fascinating. Generally, languages are fascinating. I have friends from Scotland....when they "go brogue", who can tanslate !! Thanks. Excellent references to historical significance influencing the language.!
Hey! Wot ya sayin? I'm a jock nowt wrang wi hoo ispeek pal! lol x
Having Americans speak a remarkably consistent form of English is unique in the world and worth preserving. Someone from Tampa sounds just like someone from Seattle as long as they are speaking standard English.
I know first hand that slang from Seattle is significantly different than that of Tampa, I worked in a predominantly black area of Seattle and I understood everyone 99.9% of the time without issue, there was a learning curve but I figured it out pretty quick. I worked with a guy who got the amazingly creative nickname of Tampa and at first I could barely understand him and the customers were having a hard time too. He had to revert to standard English to do his job.
He adapted in just a few days and he was speaking the same version of English as everyone else which was impressive because it happened so quickly and its not like there is a dictionary, he just soaked it up.
I feel LIED to!!!! I thought they wanted to teach ebonics in place of proper english. Damn the media
There is no such thing as "proper English."
John, thank you. You are refreshingly intelligent.
Wow! Incredible talk. Thank you for sharing.
If I only were able to hear John McWhorter speak and not see him, I would say he is part of the .5% he referred to.
I was thinking the same for many of the young black men who asked questions - but they are speaking in a formal (and multiracial) setting, plus they're all members of the economic elite.
Really? I would definitely assume he's black just from listening.
A buddy and I were walking down the street one day, chatting, when a "white" voice came from behind us, jumping into our conversation. When we turned to confront this person, the shock on our faces must've been priceless because he (a black man) burst out laughing and said, "That's right, I'm BLACK!" As we continued walking with him, he explained that he'd grown up in Alaska. Subsequent to this, he became part of our social group. We nicknamed him "Eskimo". From time to time, when I hear black people speaking in a very "black" idiom, I think about Eskimo. He was an interesting example of nature vs nurture.
Very insightful. We had someone like that in our office that we said always spoke like the President of the United States, (before Trump). 😐😐😐
You can tell a lot about anyone from the way they talk, not just the color of their skin. You can tell their approximate age, the gender, sometimes maybe their sexual orientation, what part of the world they are from, what part of North America they are from, how smart they are, and so much more. Our speech reveals who we are. It's not just about black and white.
Of course. McWhorter would agree with you. One has every right to state the obvious, but it isn't particularly productive.
Robin D. G. Kelley stated that “ [Racism] is not about how you look, it is about how people assign meaning to how you look.”
That's PREJUDICE! NOT, racism. Racism is the conscious decision to OPPRESS, OR DISCRIMINATE based on the group you assign them to. The average person will give each individual the chance to show who they are in ANY situation that matters. Its PERFECTLY NORMAL AND ACCEPTABLE, to make shorthand assumptions about people, that are common to the group they belong to. I made a video about this a few months ago. th-cam.com/video/e8dEqGWSXyE/w-d-xo.html
John McWhorter is the best
Loved this!! I learned a lot of cool things about black culture that I find fascinating. I grew up in the San Francisco Bay Area with a variety of friends from all sorts of cultures. Many of my friends growing up were black and I noticed how they could turn off/on their black English when at school (in class) vs around friends and at lunch. Really good talk.
Culture is about where you’re from and environment, not race
There is no “black culture”
Also the way you speak is about upbringing and environment
Being black don’t make you speak a certain way automatically, accent is learned not inherited, you learn to speak a certain way from what you’re around
Great discussion
A lot of people make fun of the way WHITE southern folks speak english, and it's also considered to be "Bad English". So I don't think there's anything racist about someone thinking the same about "Black English".
As European this being such a big deal in context of scholastic achievement is kinda funny to me. The point isn't to feel homey about it and it really doesn't come natural to anyone. Standard language is about being professional, same as your work clothes or uniform are.
I'm Slovenian - we have 8-12 dialect groups with 40, 50-ish dialects. If we go full at-home-spoken dialect, me and someone living 50 km from me, will have serious trouble keeping up more than a basic conversation. So you up your game to the provincial dialect and, if that fails, you keep upping your grammar and phonetics closer and closer to Standard without even thinking about it.
From kindergarten you learn "lepa Slovenščina". That saying "Tršica, k lehk grem lulat?" isn't proper and only "Gospa vzgojiteljica, ali smem na stranišče?" will get you to a bathroom. No-one ever complains about their dialect getting them bat grades. XD
I mean you could put together a Florentine and a Calabrian, then see just how far your standard Italian will get you when they speak in dialect.
Similarly, Germans grow up speaking anything from Schwabian, Silesian to Bavarian, and have to learn proper "Hoch Deutch".
And Brits might be from London, Manchester, Liverpool or wherever and proud, but their professional life, be it school or work, is preferably in "Queen's English".
It's safe to make fun of white southern speech because you're making fun of white people. It's NOT acceptable to make fun of the same type of speech from blacks because you get called "racist".
It's sad because it holds blacks to a lower standard. Every time I hear blacks speak that way it just makes me sad, as though no one in their life thought they could be taught the same basic English that I was taught.
mrkrabappleson
These black leaders are just holding back their own people.
Why can Mexicans, Chinese, immigrate here and in one generation no one can tell where the hail from, but, black people cannot grasp English.
His argument is weak.
White southern speech is considered bad precisely because of its connection to black English. It developed the way it did largely because of southern whites’ interaction with black slaves and overall black culture. The south has always harbored the most black people and it is by far the most influenced by black culture.
@@rhyca4804 Don't know if this is true but I read that it was the opposite, that black english was influenced from southern english and when black people started to move from the south to up north it stuck culturally.
Good god. He absolutely CRUSHED Broad City. I don't know if he even meant it to come off that way but, damn.
As a writer I am careful to use proper English except in dialogue where I differentiate my characters with spoken variations. This can get quite creative, as you just about have to read it aloud to understand it. As a southerner I've heard people cram whole sentences into one word. Example: a two syllable word that sounds like "dogbauw" is a reduction of the sentence "What are you talking about?"
A well known example from (white) Philly dialect is "Jeet?" for "Did you eat?" - meaning, "Have you eaten?"
The great orator.
I really like McWhorter because he never says he's trying to be a leader. He's a linguist and only talks about linguistics.
Oh, he talks about way more than just linguistics. He's even taught classes outside of linguistics. He does commentary on culture, history, black issues and more. Research him and you'll find he goes beyond linguistics, but no doubt linguistics are his main thing.
I quite enjoy this professor's talks in a variety of topics. That said, his comment about not liking or desiring a standardized English, confounds me. Standardization helps people to communicate more effectively with one another. Standardizing something is a good thing. Anyone ever having remodeled a home prior to industry standards in building practices knows exactly what I mean.
cultural appropriation is a good thing .. it's NOT taking away from one group .. it's COPYING behavior/values which WORK.
That's the most efficient way of progress..
condeming "cultural appropriation" is the same as forbidding people to use the internet because they didn't invent it
A lot of the language being used to condemn racism in the US is imprecise, in my opinion. A white boy learning Filipino culture, learning to speak Tagalog, how to cook kilawen, and outwardly wearing a Moro Warrior shirt, shouldn't be condemned as culturally appropriating something. On a lot of levels, he's respecting Filipino culture in a way that some US born Filipinos haven't done. But, in some eyes, that white boy is culturally appropriating.
I use that example because I'm partly Filipino, haven't learned how to speak the language. By that, I should be offended if I take such a broad POV. But I don't.
On the other hand, if that is indeed cultural appropriation, then there's a positive side to it that makes this conversation more nuanced. Cultural appropriation in itself isn't, then, negative. There has to be other things qualifying it.
And yet this gentleman talks about how we need to be more open to other dialects, Ebonics etc, with perfect spoken English. That irony is not lost on me.
There is no irony. Have you listened to his podcast? He changes how he speaks, just as many of us do. I mix languages when speaking to family or friends who are from my same group, but with other friends I don't. I have Asian friends who said h between Mandarin and English or Korean and English. It is norm
The "N" word is not only used as to refer to a buddy...it is very generic. You will also hear the word when they are referring to people they want to fight enemies etc. The "buddy" idea is an excuse so that other groups don't use it negatively.
It's closer to "dude" than anything, but it's steeped in in group/out group culture too.
The host is EXCEPTIONAL.
6:25 on his point about knowing 99.5% of the time that you’re talking to a black person on the phone, ironically, I first heard John’s voice in another video of him asking Jordan Peterson a question from the audience, out of view, and I felt CONVINCED it a slightly overweight white guy
He's written about this before and how he "sounds like a white person."
He says in another venue, "I think I sound like a middle aged white insurance salesman." :)
I came here to see what he looks like because I just finished listening to a series of lectures by him on Audible. And he talks a lot about black English and I was wondering why he was so interested when he sounded white to me. Then when I saw him I thought maybe it's because I'm not from the US that I can't recognize the "black" in the way he sounds. Good to know I'm not the only one.
@@latronqui he would be the .5% mentioned in his own statistic
But he doesn't sound white. He sounds Black. All y'all heard was your prejudices. Talking white is talking proper.
I love listening to him.
"Angry Grammar"
Whelp, I just found my next band name.
I would certainly like to hear Dr. Loury and Dr. McWhorter weigh in on this discussion
Ha!! I had no idea that "Ebonics" was Ebony + phonics.
Mind blown!!!
@BOISE BLACK I think you're a white dude trying to make black people look bad to white people reading this. If you are really black, then you're not doing black people any favors with your racist bullshit.
Wow. Sad.
If I can jump in here for a moment. I agree with the comment on standard English...in the sense that its "standardness" closes down so many things. I don't mind encountering it in good books of excellent scholarly rigor - if that's what I'm looking for.
But here in my very cosmopolitan city, I hear English spoken in a thousand different ways, with every accent under the sun. And my aim is to understand it all, because it constantly surprises and delights me, by throwing "butchered" words, phrases and meanings together in a delightfully constructed spoken soup.
Some things come across as absolutely poetic, a poetry that standard English would never deliver.
Another reason is that I'm a lover of blues and of spiritual music, both of which employ "blacklish" to the hilt. I play and sing the stuff myself, and I cannot imagine singing it in any standard way whatsoever.
Perhaps in a perfect world, we'd all be able to become so fluent in our speech that everyone could adjust it according to the time, place and circumstance, seamlessly. But myself, I prefer to focus on the meanings within speech, and let those meanings help me to draw conclusions about the speaker, rather than the style of speech.
This is hilarious: I can assure you that 99.99999% of people annoyed with “black speech” are not thinking: “boy, they use the pluperfect too much.” Haha. Only John would think that. I love it.
He is such a gem.
4:29 " ...a Kente Cloth wearing poverty pimp " - I wonder who that reminds us of these days in mid 2020. hmm .... ;)
Marie Kirby do you mean Nancy?
All over the world, societies have a prestige or formal version of a language, and common or vernacular versions of that language. In Germany, there's High German and other dialects. In the Middle East, there's formal Arabic and other dialects. In England, there's the received pronunciation and other dialects. And here in the US, there's standard American English, and then there are regional and cultural dialects, including black English, Appalachian English, and so on. In a descriptive view of language, these other dialects are just less prestigious than the formal, national dialect.
I think one thing that was covered incorrectly here is why “standard” English is a thing. It’s not some arbitrary thing. “Standard” English is really just our name for the language that the world’s most powerful and wealthy people use. In order to enjoy the benefits of those powerful and wealthy people, you must speak their language. That’s why almost any luxury hotel in the world will have front desk staff that speak their best approximation of “standard” English. That’s also why it’s also expected to use “standard” English in a job interview of professional setting. It’s the language of power and money. It’s the language that opens doors.
Great conversation - thanks !!
There is almost no such thing as “standard” English - but each Anglophone country has traditions which quite arbitrarily come to be regarded as “correct”.
US is quite different from UK, which is different from Australia, etc. We all understand each other - but would all choose rather different ways to select optimal formal language.
This is changing all the time - but certainly not going away any time soon. There is a degree of international “overlap” - but not nearly as much as you might think.
The thing about “interview” English is not that there is a right and wrong, but that it should be receiver-appropriate. If you are applying for a Civil Service job, you HAVE to speak differently than if you are competing for a plumbing vacancy.
You need to project what the interviewer is hoping to hear - and demonstrate the attitude the position requires. This is a skill which cannot be taught - it has to be LEARNT from experience. Educated people can struggle with this - in some situations - every bit as much as more intellectually average folks.
17:45 but I think other races do that too. Everyone becomes proper (or “formal” like he said I think that’s a better word for it) during a job interview if they’re interested in the job.
Well, as he said later on, American English is very unique in that it is relatively homogenous. So the few dialects that really stand out (like black english or the hardcore southern accents) and "force" people to switch between standard english and their dialect lead to this idea that it is somehow racist because black. But go anywhere else in the world and you find that it is completely normal to not only switch your dialect on and of, but to have it on a kind of gradient of intensity. Just take the UK dialects of the south coast of England and the northcost of Scotland. If people were not able to switch off/gradiate their accents, they could not talk to each other.
As in the UK, here in Germany everybody has to switch and gradiate all the time (not only in job interviews) when they talk with people from all over the place because the dialects are SO different that they become incomprehensible, the more people lean into them.
A white person cannot got into a job interview and say, "I seen them fliers you posted and came to apply". That may have been the non-standard English spoken in their home, but since dtandard English is taught in the schools along with standard math snd standard science, we're expected to know it. It is also not kept a dark secret as it once might have been when we were geographically distant or so socially stratified that the working classes never heard standard English being spoken. Reasonably decent English is used on television and can be learned from example.
I have to disagree with McWhorter on the "you can't speak that way at a job interview" comment. He says he bridles at the phrase, and counters with "no one said they wanted to." But they do. Many, many young black Americans have no idea that they are revealing a lack of education during a job interview, or other professional interactions, and speak EXACTLY that way. How could they do otherwise?
The problem is not that Black American language exists, all languages in all countries have always developed dialects. That happens. The problem is that Americans do not have a proper English language that they are trained to use in certain situations. We need a MUCH better education system that promotes a professional and useful English that can be added to the toolbox of all American children. NOT train them that any old way of comfortably chatting with friends is the only method we can use.
Damn linguists and their smarts 😍
27:37 I'm relieved that McWhorter said we can't fix the usage of Nigga by others. Black people have to let it go. The people who want to reserve the right to be offended by the word regardless of how it is being used is being dishonest and they are out of luck. I'm black.
Hillbilly talk should be taught as a legitimate altenate
Maaaan..he is spot on about "be done"
When I first heard McWhorter (Aspen, with Peterson) I assumed he was an old white guy. Contrary to his observation he does not sound black.
I hear Philadelphian when I listen to him.
Education changes everything. He is a professor at Columbia University
Education changes everything. He is a professor at Columbia University
He did 99.5% can tell the difference. He's the .5% who you cannot tell the difference.
love this guy
I didn't hear "axe" not one time. Amazing.
McWhorter would have characterized your comment as pretty much entirely missing the point of his book.
I'm from Newfoundland, Canada. John would have a field day with our rural & urban dialects/grammar...or have a stroke...I'm not sure which...preferably the former and not the latter.