WHAT'S THE BEST STAX PIECE IN cEDH?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 23 พ.ย. 2023
- Dylan and Cam nail down the best stax pieces in cEDH
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Honorable Mention: Void WInnower! Have to imagine Tyler has terrorized you guys enough with this one - WoundedSatellite
Makes sense! But I would say that this is a win condition kinda of
@@officialCannisMajoris what 😂
@@officialCannisMajoristell me a void winnower line that wins sorry I seem rude I made this second comment cause the first one was rude and I apologize ❤😂
@@Naustrix Its a big monster that stops a lot of spells your opponents casts. And mostly importantly in cedh it gets in the table by meeting a “soft combo”. You don’t play this card on a deck that has no way of cheating it into play. It’s a win condition in the same way that reanimator style decks play big creatures
"We've done there we've been that"
-Dylan
0:40
My only other possible include would be grand abolisher. However, I think that would more so fall under the "protect my win attempt" category rather than stax
That’s why we didn’t include it but it’s very effective
How did Ethersworn Canonist miss the rule of law effects? I think that one is the easiest to abuse, and it shuts off Thoracle
Yeah, that 2 mana cost and being an artifact is very helpful
They also forgot Karn on Null Rods
I feel like Blind Obedience should be higher since it turns off Kiki-Jiki, Dualcaster Mage, and Godo combos in addition to turning off Dockside combos, which is something you guys bring up with Phyrexian Censor later in the video.
I've found myself keeping turn 1 drannith on the play more and more often recently.
Rhystic study is the best stax piece because letting the blue player draw cards, in fact also stops your opponents from doing things
Yea, Rystic is diffently considered a soft stax
Dude, I barely play Magic, I never played cEDH, I don't know most of the cards they talk about, but something about their energy is so compelling to me.
I hate playing competitively yet I love these podcasts! Keep it up.👍
Cam pronouncing torpor orb sounds like a seal and i love it, i need an alt of torpor orb that's cams face photoimposed on a seal with the best attempt at a caption for flavor text
For blood moon effects i think contamination should have an honorable mention. i guess it just doesn’t fit in many decks, but goes hard in mono black
One particular thing I like about Aven Mindcensor is the psychological aspect of it and the potential for resource wasting: Opposition Agent often gets the one Gotcha! moment and then shuts off tutoring completely (which makes your opponents look for different avenues of play), but Mindcensor leaves just enough wiggle room that people might knowingly play into it anyway if a situation gets tight.
it's odd to describe a stax effect as a static ability on a permanent when smokestacks is a triggered ability. I'd still consider tanglewire, for instance, a stax effect
(sorry if this is addressed later, still at the beginning of the episode)
I still think that's how they should have defined it. Stax came from smokestack. They should have started with it even if it's just honourable mention
@@pitakon I heard Stasis + Tax lead to the term (Stasis and Winter Orb are MUCH older than Smokestacks), Smokestacks feels a lot more like a Pox effect since it makes people symmetrically sacrifice stuff, that's not Stax IMHO that's Pox.
@@mightyone3737 lol no. Stax came from $T4KS OR THE 4K$ SOLUTION. Back when the whole deck was only worth 4k$ not a single shop. The deck had tangle wires, smokestack, spheres, welders And shops. So no stax is not stasis and tax.
Agreed. I'd also consider cards like Scavenging Ooze stac pieces.
I do think it's important to mention blind obedience stops several win cons such as Kiki-Jiki and Dual Caster wins
Dauntless dismantler messed me up so bad. I forgot about it and cast a dockside which was gonna go into an ad naus
Personally I like Blind Obedience a bit more than Manglehorn. It's harder to interact with and the creature clause shuts off win lines like Dualcaster or Kiki-Jiki, which can be pretty important. Coming down a little earlier is a big deal too, in terms of slowing down your opponents.
phyrexian censor is great in blood pod because it can be sacrificed for the felidar to do the line, not messing up kiki
I know I'm way late on commenting, but another very relevant aspect of Dauthi Voidwalker: it's a creature with shadow, so essentially unblockable in most situations, and it's in Tymna colors.
What about Karn, the Great Creator? Asymetric, destroys cryps moxes, potencial artifact recursion
Great card. Easier to interact with on the stack and on the board than Ouphe even though one-sided. I really like it, but it’s been fairly disliked by this channel for sure.
I thought you were gonna mention Wandering Archaic when you talked about returning to avatars later. Has to be better than sire of insanity. Stops counter spells and several win cons
Hushbringer stops hulk, dockside, craterhoof and thassa's. It flies and has life link. Probably one of my favorites.
gotta be honest best cam intro line ever here I would be flattered to have it again
For what it's worth, with regards to stopping tutors - technically there is the WAR Ashiok that also kinda handily kills all your opponents graveyards as an added bonus! But given that it's still a planeswalker I do understand why it's not really seeing any play
Super late to this video but I constantly see this being forgotten: Opposition Agent says you control the player while they are searching. That means you are allowed to not only look at their hand, but also choose to reveal that information to the table. Insanely high impact card
Great episode guys, but im missing both elsesh norn, Hokori dust drinken, winter orb, grand arbiter, root maze.
Dauntless Dismantler has been awesome. I’ll also say that the Blind Obedience extort is still useful as an alternative win con in Tivit, during the Desplacer Kitten/Teferi loop.
The new Thalia and the Gitrog Monster would be a good commander for STAX deck. Abzan, and surprisingly it is only 4 Mana and already shuts down your opponents creatures and lands, as well as being a great attacker with a big butt.
For the artifact etb tap catagory, I was sad to not see root maze. I believe it's the best one by a large margin because it can be dropped on turn one and totally hose your opponents.
Also, it's kind of in a catagory of its own, but Lavinia, Azorius Renegade deserves a mention.
You forgot Elesh Norn The Grand Cenobite, great finisher with all stax pieces on creatures. Also locks opponents stax, combopieces, comanders and so on
33:38 that… already exists… we have Karn the Great Creator who also blows up mana crypts for +1
I really would love for yall to look up Ellivere. Aggro stax with both ouphe, stony, archon of valor AND a fight plan.
I just wanna say thank you for finally re adding the skull sleeves to the merch store, been waiting to grab some for ages 😂😂
Glad you like them!
Great podcast as always guys! Just wanted to say I often listen while driving and really appreciate it when you read cards aloud (especially lesser known ones like the archon)
Phyrexian sensor is the piece you sacrifice to bring in the Kiki combo
I love how you guys just totally lost it at the end . Once the tutoring for more stax started, it was over already😂😂
This is such a great topic. Thank you guys for helping make me a better mtg player. Love you guys!
Chains of mephistopheles for draw hate, it can enable you for plenty of decks, while also being not as fragile as the other draw hate cards.
love you guys ❤. Keep the great content coming
First time First! It's really good that you always set your definition for each thing you discussing. Makes it much easier to follow your train of thoughts.
"Done there been that" has now been uploaded to my list of sayings lol
So your definition precludes counting tangle wire as a stax piece but it's a pretty classic one in my mind
Top 11 is truly cursed, keep it up boys
Can you link when you mention a previous episode? I don't remember the stax commanders and would love to watch it.
Blind obedience literally warps games at all levels. It’s better than dismantler.
It stops Kiki lines, stops dual caster twin flame kills, dockside loops. Good with or against Many combat strategies. It does way more than ppl give it credit for. And it’s asymmetric at face value.
Card is a blowout damn near any time I see it.
Another reason I love Yuriko…fun deck that can just fit in some stax…graf cage, null rod, torp orb, op agent, cursed totem
I think some of the other best stax pieces that were notably absent are: Chains of Mephistopheles | Contamination | Hushbringer | Winter Orb.
They did mention Spirit of the Labyrinth alongside Notion Thief, pointing out its weakness in CEDH being it’s 1 toughness.
Many of those aren’t efficient or good enough in asymmetrical strategies (breaking parity) I.e. winter orb is generally good in a couple decks that can break parity like Urza.
Hushbringer is good but it’s not good enough or seen play in CEDH to be worthy of mention.
9:48 You can break parity with Rest in Peace if you’re playing Enchantress. Yes, it’s a very specific deck, but it does have applications.
Or just by not using your Graveyard or dying triggers.
@@thetimebinder Sure, but then you’re playing a card that doesn’t advance your game plan. That’s fine in a 1v1 setting, just setting your opponents behind. But if you’re playing a card that doesn’t advance your game plan in Commander, you’re essentially giving the players not particularly negatively affected card advantage by hurting one (or two) players but not advancing your game plan.
***
Playing an enchantment in an enchantress deck often draws you three or four cards.
Y'all missed a few cats: Leonin Arbiter, and Alms Collector. They RARELY see play, but their effects are pretty good.
Wow this is a tough list! The stuff that got dropped below 10 is still damn good. So many good pieces out there.
It would be interesting to hear both of your thoughts on stax peices that "funnel". I believe that effects like dauthi and rule of law force a certain play pattern. Dauthi, for example, does not stop your opponents from casting powerful spells, but does allow for you to use the spell later. Possible primer could be made for a predatory deck that preys on players who take the bait on this kind of effect?
6:05 the first creature with this effect was Glowrider from Legions which is (2W) for a 2/1 human, and also Vryn Wingmare from M21 which is also (2W) 2/1 with flying, I agree on the point with Stax pieces are best when drawing cards with Tymna, and I rate Thalia, Wryn and Glowrider as higher than Thorn or Sphere.
Oh yeah my favorite podcast is back!
Opening was gold. Love the voice
Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite is a great stax piece. It's not cheap (to say the least), but it shuts down so many good creatures while providing your board with a massive pump to end games.
I personally love hushbringer, for just 2 mana, you turn off ETBs, turning off Dockside and Thoracle, among others, but you also get some incidental lifegain from the lifelink, you're at 2 health, making it less of a target for bowmasters (especially since it takes away the bowmaster ETB). And you also shut off death effects, which I can't currently think of any meaningful ones, but I'm sure there are some.
You also didn't mention the tabernacle at pendrell vale, which nombos with most stax decks which are quite creature heavy, but can still be a potent stax piece in some decks.
And finally, you didn't mention the greatest hits - tanglewire, winter orb, stasis...
For me there is a specific distinction between stax and tax. Tax still allows your opponents to play the game, but more fairly (slowly), where as stax tries to prevent them from doing a particular aspect of the game entirely.
Taxes are optional (Rhystic Study). Thalia and Trinisphere aren't optional and are Stax.
@thetimebinder I wish the government thought taxes were optional lol.
The only way cards like rhystic study are optional is how you pay the tax, the tax is either pay 1 or an opponent gets a card, so they still have to pay something for the card, whether its mana or card disadvantage it's an additional cost.
Edit: to me taxes are designed to slow down aspects of the game, whereas stax tries to stop it completely. An example would be FoW getting slowed by Thalia, but it's alt cost is completely shutdown by lavinia, azorious renegade/void mirror, etc
Love me some cursed totem. As a Talion player (y'all said Nymris which is basically the same deck) cursed totem does nothing to affect me and it has been an absolute banger. The last tournament I played in I sat down at a pod of wild pile, Sisay and Kinnan and I got lucky mulling to second 7 to find it. Game was basically over by getting it out on 2 after Talion on 1.
I don't think this is a stax effect but punisher is what I've been calling it. Rug of another has been a banger and a great creature to clone.
Also a fan of weathered runestone to cover the Sisay Planeswalker lines or people trying to get things like the one ring or time sieve with transmute artifact.
Love it! Thank ls fellas. Fun conversation. Root Maze. That is all.
I think rhystic study is both, because when people are responsible it just becomes a ”spells you cast cost one more" effect, and when people aren't, then it becomes a card advantage piece.
A good definition of stax is "A permanent that changes the rules of the game".
Telling people to pay X to cast spells, that they can't tap certain spells, that they can only play X spells a turn, etc. can all be seen as rule manipulationand thus is a good way to describe it.
Also, Chalice X=0 is phenomenal at denying faster lists from blitzing out.
I think you guys missed the mark a bit on Torpor Orb effects. These also include Hushbringer, Hushwing Gryff, Tocatli Honor Guard which you guys didn't even mention. In fact, Hushbringer is the best of the bunch if you are on white (and Hushwing Gryff is a clooose 2nd). These effects shut off Dockside, Thoracle, Tivit's ETB, any other value etbs (Gilded Drake, Loran), as well as Selvala and a bunch of other random win cons. Torpor Orb is 2nd only to null rod effects in my view in the format right now (even above RoL since RoL is really well played around these days).
I gotta put Yasharn, Implacable Earth up there in any stax list. Not too common but crazy impactful when it comes down
Posting this comment at 3:00 into the video. Let's see if my definition changes, but right now I think of Stax pieces as trolls guarding the bridge to the Stack. Sometimes he'll let spells pass if you pay the toll. Sometimes he just says, No! Lol
I use Torrens as my commander for stax and even the slower creature stax pieces are still pretty worth running because of the extra value Torrens gives
Elesh Norn MOM, is a stax piece that is also a value piece and a win con in some decks. Also kiki and VBR get through all the creatures enter tapped effects
35:30 the issue with Cursed Totem, is you might turn off a mana dork deck and do nothing to others, and therefore making it easier to Grixis deck that dominate the meta at the moment.
I’m surprised you didn’t mention hushbringer. It’s a torpor orb that also prevents death triggers and flies, which can be relevant with tymna
if you have the pod in play, then Phyrexian Censor can the the 3-drop you sac to get Felidar Guardian to start your pod line. No conflict here.
What about:
Grand Arbiter Augustin IV
4 cmc but (very) assymetrical, great with jeweled lotus as commander
Aura of silence
1ww hard to cast T1 but very high tax
Dovin, hand of control
Much easier to cast T1 than aura of silence (but only 1 mans tax) and hates most relevant card types.
God pharaoh's statue
6 cmc but very high tax all colourless, easy to cheat/mana vault/mishra's workshop into
Karn, great creator
4 cmc but assymetrical all colourless collector ouphe that can enable and defend (by returning exiled key pieces) combos (basalt/grim monolith + training grounds)
The best Stax effect IMHO is still the grandpa, good old Stasis. Being unable to untap is pretty much game over for most decks, and their are plenty of ways to make it more effective. It's also an enchantment, making it much harder for Grixis to deal with, and the best decks tend to be Grixis afaik. I've experimented a fair bit with Static Orb, and it's a very good card, but you can play around Static Orb and you can't play around Stasis terribly well (stockpile lands is about it, so stuff like Big Thalia and Archon of Emeria are really terrifying with Stasis out). The way I play Stax in cEDH I try to get a Rule out ASAP and then try to set up something like Stasis if I still haven't drawn cards to win, this way you have two 'must remove' effects before you can really do much, and both tend to be Enchantments in my deck. Slow and steady!
RiP makes sense in a deck like Zur that can dig it out, it's really good there, but it's not a very exciting card to draw. RiP exiling existing cards is very powerful, and the fact that it's a combo piece is also nice (but Voidwalker also works with Helm fwiw).
Voidwalker is better than Archon of Emeria?! Is this a non-serious podcast or something? Yikes. It's also much easier to cheese out a turn 1 Archon, BB is much harder to cast.
I like the idea of Drana and Linvala, in part because I like Vigilance on a flyer, but 4 mana is usually for win cons, right? It just seems huge, though as I say that I remember I still run Wandering Archaic, so I'm not sure I have anything to say. Has anyone tried D+L as Commander? It probably sucks because Orzhov has no synergy with itself.
Notion Thief has 1 toughness and can easily be killed by Bowmasters if someone can draw at instant speed. I assiduously don't run Notion Thief in any serious decks, it's not a very good card because it's 4 mana and dies to being sneezed near.
As you read out the list, I question a great deal, but I will admit I absolutely hate Opposition Agent and build around trying to kill/counter it.
Chains of Mephistopheles should be included in draw hate.
Cam, explain to the folks at home what a permanent is
Id argue Bowmaster does prevent you from doing things, but it happens in deck construction instead of once the game starts.
It makes most mana dorks much worse and completely nullifies 1 toughness commanders. It also actively prevents mass draw for wins. Ie: peer into the abyss or wheels.
Listening to cal say torpor orb was an experience
when talking about effects like linvala, what do you think about sharkey? It seems pretty bad to me, pretty much only shutting off fetch lands
Any thoughts on Stasis as a stax piece?
stasis isn't so much a stax piece as a game lock. It's also pretty convoluted to get working and doesn't really see cEDH play.
Stax Creatures are becoming a bigger part of my meta so I've been switching counterspells to add stern scolding and change the equation
This video is tempting me to build some kind of Abzan stax abomination...
I personally love blind obedience, but my meta is full of godo, kiki loops, etc which it stops
you mention at 33:35 that there isn't an asymetrical ouphe affect, yet Karn, the great creator exists, and he doesn't see play because he costs 4
For my play group it’s blood moon & collector ouphe
Another honorable mention: Karn the great creator: asymmetric collector ouphe, that also kills 0 cost mana rocks
This is perfect timing. Building a preston stax deck atm.
May I suggest next game play should be Rogsi, Blue Farm, Najeela and lastly Kinnan these decks seem pretty fun to play against!
Karn is the best null rod cuz it's asymmetrical, didn't even get mentioned
Also, Dranna and Linvala the best cursed totem.
You guys are the best id love to join the patreon someday so maybe id get to game with yall
Blind obedience is also a wincon
Would have liked to hear the reasoning behind why torpor orb is bad. Does that evaluation extend to hushwing as well? Seems wrong to talk about 5 mana Elesh Norn.. probably not good enough, but what about 7 mana Elesh Norn? Turns off creatures? Quasi-permanent board wipe
Chalice of the void can be the solution to stop (momentaneously) hullbreak horror combo with 0 mana artifacts, right?
Argument for dismantled over manglehorn too is that for the same mana cost and sacrificing it you blow up ALL the mox and crypts in play 🤷🏻♂️ but also a downside cuz you have to sacrifice it
Can we get that Scampod list 👀
What about the Orbs? (Winter Orb and Static Orb)
nice scowl shirt dylan. whats the name of your guys band
as my LGS resident stax player I approve of this video concept. #staxisthestrongestarchetype
no humility for shame
Question to posit to Tyler: since Kinnan loves seedborne muse, could back to basics become a one sided stax card if you +1 another effect? Either way love the stuff always gang
I mean yes, but if you stick a seedborn you should be winning anyway. And in most kinnan builds with not a lot of basics, it seems like it would be a bad card in most situations without seedborn.
Had a game yesterday with Dauntless Dismantler and stopped a Magda player from going through their combo with it
I’m going to watch the episode later because I’m a huge fan and you guys are awesome…. But isn’t the answer just Dranith Magistrate.
Mentioned Torpor Orb but No Hushbringer ? in my opinion the way better orb
Can you guys do best tutors next? That would be a cool video.
Any thoughts on Void mirror?
Kinnan breaks parity on Trinisphere like a champion.