What puzzles me is, when you have to spend so much money on a passive filter. And alot of people bi amp, why not active cross one side even a passive filter on the preamp side and then go to the amp would be great and alot cheaper. Then 2nd of why do systems with bi-amp capabilities don't put the active cross-over capabilities in the dsp. I realy wonder....
For the amount of money that a lot of people spend on factory built speakers, it makes a lot more sense to build your own and use a tri amp electronic crossover system. This dramatically improves everything. No more crossover distortion. No more efficiency deficit better transient response and finally a perfectly flat frequency response. Plus you still end up saving money compared to commercially manufactured high-end speakers.
@ke4uyp I caught my 703 on sale for $450 U.S. adorama had a 2 day sale only basically giving them away cost about $400-450 to make ! They did sale for $1500 from 2012-2021 ' Build quality is very very good ! LSIM build quality better than Reserved or Legend Series ' hands down ! ! But they didn't sale that well 😕
I had the opportunity to meet Matthew Polk in the late 70s. Polk was located in SW Baltimore at the time which was pretty close to my patrol area. One day I simply knocked on the door after hours and he's the one who answered. I introduced myself and explained my audio passion and to my surprise he led me on a guided tour of the facility. I was particularly intrigued with the R&D room. One feature that I still remember to this day was a turntable sitting on top of a solid block of granite. He was very gracious and even gave me a dealer number so I could buy direct from Polk. You are so right about dealer markups; I was shocked to learn how much it was. One takeaway from the two videos featuring that Polk speaker is that they were able to favorably impress you even with the cheesy crossover parts. You've tested many speakers way above their price point that got nothing but your distain. So my hat's off to Polk. Anyway, I still say a speaker company could kill their competition by using better parts and advertising that fact. As for the crossovers you made, they deserve to be in a museum grade glass display box. They are works of art.
Love your work Danny! What you talk about, especially when it comes sonic Caps and RF noise is like music to my ears. It's about time you become your own "Made in Texas" brand. Lucky to have you.
This should be pinned as a reference video for anyone wanting to understand the design tradeoffs between performance and cost. Great explanation of why the same value of component can sound different. And how that impacts costs as well. Good job!
As a long time DIY guy, and someone who has done quite a few similar types of upgrades over the years, I can vouch 100% for what Danny is saying here. Spatial cues are one of the main things that these types of upgrades get you. Of course, more detail too.
Taken from BK’s Dictionary of English Stupidity & Otherworldly Knowledge. Detail: 1. Is the action of removing the tail from cooked shrimp etc. Similarly, the prefix of “de” is also used with the word “bug” to denote the removal of bugs, whether figurative or literal from a computer etc. 2. The amount of information density or resolution in a picture, music recording, the careful crafting in fine fancy furniture etc. 3. verb, detailing: the act of obsessively cleaning the interior of a car so that it is as close as possible to brand spankin new. 4. In audio, proper or correct detail is when the human auditory system is fooled into thinking there is a live performance in the room, even when the performance is only being recreated by rapid flapping of paper or other materials of choice.
A(nother) great video... that crossover is a work of art . a fine sculpture . I would much rather listen / learn from you, about these advances... than [you] try and record, render the differences... [for others] Keep doing what you are doing, you .are. the best at it... KUDOS!
I could have bought better speakers but I choose to upgrade the crossovers. I doubt that even 1500€ speakers would have same level components I've put in them. And also some all important room treatment. Saved me a lot of money and completely transformed my listening experience. And once again, thank Danny for sharing the knowledge and inspiring us to do it ourselves. Edit: guess it would have to be way more expensive speakers, since the crossovers I've made cost 250€ in parts.
As we've seen multiple times on this very channel, price is no guarantee of quality. But sunk cost fallacy exists. We all have to think about what we're getting when we throw some extra money at it. Some speakers are well worth upgrading. Others are not.
Thank you this was a great video. First, thank you for confirming the price-to-part ratio for mass produced speakers. Second, thank you for breaking down the parts and what makes good / better / best in terms of crossover. Information packed!
I have built 2 speakers from Danny, the latest being the NX Studio. I have asked many a question through email or calling and they always get back to you right away and cheerfully. Never a problem. It is so easy with their help. Most of all you get a product that blows everything else out of the water. Every one of my friends and audiophile buddies cannot believe how these things image, width and depth of soundstage, clarity and quality. With flat pack and kit from GR it was around $1k. Nothing I have heard competes with them. I can’t even imagine what the Oticas or NXstremes sound like. GR Reasearch team is honest and trustworthy. Thanks
Thanks for the tec talk, great to have concise explanations on a topic with so many rabbit holes. I did a sound sweep on my X-Statiks that uncovered a problem at 105 hz and again at a lower frequency. The vibration was coming from the fireplace grill. I have got to fix it before we listen to Tommy again.
Had similar problems. Took a while and a whole lot of looped sweeps at different frequency to get it all sorted. Fix one and find another... Chasing for cancelation and peaking frequencies on the listening position is also good fun, hours go by and you don't even notice it. Took me long time to fix the 100Hz range because I couldn't move anything from where it is. Managed to do it by raising the crossover point on the sub and inverting the phase. It was literally inaudible before it as fixed.
True, unless its one of those "esoteric" companies using flashy and unnecessarily expensive cosmetic materials then marking it up 10,000%. But great to know "built to a price point" speakers are easily upgradeable thanks to people like Danny --- although its still a matter of an "upgrade bang for the buck".
This is probably the best video you've done or the at least the best I watched so far . I would love to order the best speaker model you got sometime in the future and ship it to me fully assembled to Australia , if that's possible. Thanks and best regards 👍❗️
I understand you have great experience of how certain components sound and can predict results to some degree. However the sound signature of different drivers and cabinets may not always give the optimum results with the same crossover components. Don't you think that some combinations may have a better synergy that you will only know if you listen. I saw Jay finessing his speakers trying a range of high end capacitors, which were all good, but one or two stood out as better than the others. He would not have known for that particular speaker without listening.
Ended doing exactly that myself after experimenting with a couple of DIY active multi ways, and finding that without extensive DSP - which is a whole ‘nother can of worms - a well executed passive sounded as good if not better, but wouldn’t readily fit in the specific enclosures.
Just the fact alone that sound clips can not reproduce the dimension, openness and spatial ques tells me that the human brain and ears are doing something that still can not be measured objectively or quantitized. I can’t wait to upgrade my crossovers, these videos from Danny get me super inspired. I like that Danny says we can send a picture of the finished crossover because one of my hurdles is concern about hurting something in my system. Although I suspect that amp protection would negate that.
The upgrades effects can all be measured and explained. Better parts, like hotrodding a car. The new parts are tighter tolerance and made of better materials. There may be psychoacoustic benefits beyond that. Danny has given the speaker what it needed to work optmally vs compromising to meet a price point.
The effects are not all measurable. Capacitors can measure exactly the same but people can hear a difference. Our brains are more sensitive which hurts a lot of engineers feelings
@@CanberraProtest-dm6huThat’s like saying regardless of quicker 0-60mph times of high end sports cars, you can just say “but my car feels faster, engineering is not everything”.
Danny’s kits really are great. After upgrading my RF’s, I wouldn’t think of buying something else. You really need to just dive in to know what you’re missing. Even just no-rez and his terminals make a difference. He’s right about not being able to “unhear” resonance.
In my many decades of experience tinkering with various speaker designs, and also improving countless brands and models of used speakers that I've picked up for free or super cheap at a thrift store or the like, from what I've noticed as a trend, is as long as the overall speaker is well built and looks and feels good, and is relatively heavy, then usually the overall quality of the cabinet is at least good, and can be worked with, and the overall quality of the individual drivers themselves, (woofers, tweeters, etc), are usually also decent and useable, but in MOST speakers, pretty much regardless of original retail cost, the "weakest link" in the entire speaker is usually, (almost always), the crossover components themselves, (capacitors, inductors, etc), mainly because, as Danny said, every speaker is made to a price point, and since the crossovers of speakers aren't seen by the consumer, because they're usually totally hidden inside the cabinets, and because most people don't know how they work OR what truly good quality parts for those even look like anyway, plus the fact that the crossovers for a truly good sounding speaker will almost always be the MOST expensive part of the overall speaker to make to extremely high quality, "audiophile" standards in order to get the absolute best possible sound out of the overall speaker, the crossovers are usually the place where most manufacturers, especially mass market ones, will "cut corners" to keep the speaker at a certain price point... So, upgrading the crossovers yourself with MUCH higher quality parts is most oftentimes the best upgrade to a speaker that you can do, along with additional cabinet bracing, sealing, and adding of insulation or damping material if it has none or very little, which is usually pretty cheap to do, but the drivers in decently good quality speakers are usually quite acceptable or even actually pretty good to start with, at least moreso than the crossover components usually are... With speaker upgrades and improvements, you start with the weakest link and/or the cheapest and easiest things to improve the sound the MOST, for the lowest relative cost, and then if all of that stuff doesn't make it a good sounding speaker then you might as well just go work on another, better built, better overall beginning quality speaker entirely, because if you ever go the route of totally replacing the individual drivers themselves with better quality ones, then you've basically totally changed the overall speaker to something else entirely anyway, because with totally different drivers in it, it's not even a (whatever brand it was when you started working on it) anymore anyway... At that point you'd be better off just custom designing a cabinet and crossover around/for those specific high quality drivers you want to use, instead of ever thinking about changing the ones out in an already pre made, brand name speaker. You learn what to look for to begin with I guess, in speaker upgrades, and if you find a decent looking and well built speaker on the used market somewhere, preferably in a thrift store or such, where you can get a "feel" for its build and apparent driver quality (from the front outside anyway), AND you can make sure that it at least works properly and at least sounds good, with no damaged or blown drivers, and the cabinets are made out of a decently heavy and structurally sound material, then you at least have a decent candidate for a beginning upgrade experiment. That's how I got started in doing this as a hobby, and now after so many decades and literally hundreds of different speakers, I now know exactly what to look for (AND things to avoid) when buying a used speaker to improve, that way as long as "the bones are good" to begin with, then you can improve the crossover and usually get the MOST additional sound quality improvements with most speakers. Usually the drivers themselves, (as long as they're all of a decent quality and design to begin with, like woofers with rubber surrounds for longevity, a decent magnet and voice coil size, (usually somewhat indicated by the relative size of the dust cap), and preferably real full dome or ribbon type tweeters vs. just cones or semi-dome cheap tweeters), then you have at least decent drivers to deal with to begin with, and can usually improve the crossovers inside such speakers, (ones that also have decently heavy cabinets), and bring those types of speakers up to a pretty amazingly awesome level, sound quality wise! I have quite a few pairs of upgraded speakers that I've found for around $20/pair on average at thrift stores and such, that now sound about as good as they possibly can, and many which now compare sound quality wise to MUCH higher end speakers which cost many hundreds or thousands more than what I have into any of them, including the crossover upgrade costs!... (I actually need to start selling some of them in their improved form, because I've just got too many pairs for my space now, LOL!) In any case, and whatever route you take in either upgrading existing speakers, and/or designing and building your own speakers from scratch, it's a very fun hobby, and it teaches you a LOT about what all makes for TRULY great sound quality! (i.e. all of the things that make the biggest and MOST important differences in regards to that) The bottom line in this is to just have fun tinkering, and let your ears be the final judge with speakers, because if you find a way to make a speaker sound amazing to YOU, then you've done something right, and hopefully you've learned something that will help you to improve other speakers in the future, if you so choose to... Enjoy the learning experience AND listening experience, and just have fun with your experimenting, whatever route you may go!
It's extremely interesting, that some people think that parts are just parts & better quality parts don't make a difference, I alway say to these people, why don't Rolls-Royce, use cheap fiat parts for there cars, if parts don't make a difference, if you look under the hood of a Rolls-Royce, you will only see quality, you only get what you pay for, another great video Danny👍
I got Danny's crossovers in give me one month and i will have them finished ! Danny made it very easy for me and answered my questions very quickly! Its on ! Got new Soldiering Iron and high end soldier ! Thanks Danny ! Looks like a piece of artwork to me !! Very good SUPPORT!
Danny, you are great. This is why I love GR Research and all the work and expertise you show us. I also love Meadowlark Audio from the 90’s to the early-mid 00’s. I am Not familiar with Pats recent work with his DSP powered speakers, but bang for the buck, you can’t beat Meadowlark Audio from those days !
There was a Heron model that was ridiculous for the money, I listened to them via Audio Research and a nice Acoustic Signature turntable. B-52s to jazz, they were incredible.
Another great show man and this gets to the core of why you wanna upgrade with the best components because you can make the decisions and not somebody else, Besides, designing awesomeness into the situation, usually means well, you’re gonna get awesomeness… Lol… anyway… Keep on rocking.
As someone who has only had cheap speakers, I now understand what goes into the more expensive speakers and how they reproduce better souond from the same sources. Thanks.
At the price of decent amplifiers these days, it seems that biamping and using much smaller caps and resistors in the line level crossover would be worth offering!
BTDT, and it can work, but note there are some limitations with unbuffered Passive Line Level XO. Another option would be something like miniDSP; takes some fiddling about and learning curve, but can deliver satisfying results. Of course there are still limitations there, which Danny could very likely address better than I.
I picked up some polk tsi300 mtm towers used the other day. Best 50 bucks ive spent in a long time. They sound so good i was shocked. Im now a fan of polk lol. I have a full episode surround sound kit. Believe its the 500 series which i paid 70 for those and an onkyo reciever. My 120 system rocks and sounds amazing. I love buying used and getting killer deals. Alot of people think you have to spend tons of money. Well, you dont have to thats for sure. Id never heard of episode previously and im very impressed. Funny thing is i thought they were generic lol. They are def not thats for sure. Im really impressed by the polk towers. I had no idea polk was so good. Im currently watching the used market for more killer deals. Id like to upgrade the xover parts in these speakers. That would be interesting.
We were all set to buy Magico but stopped off to hear Yamaha NS-5000 on the way to the store. We saved $10K and bought the NS-5000. I think they fit Dan's sensibilities. We have older speakers with MDF cabinets and the screw holes are trashed. The drivers are hanging. There are designers out there who allege crossovers kill tone quality. It's like wine. You buy a compromise between what you like and what you can afford.
You just mention "Yamaha" and audiophiles cringe, but I've only seen good reviews of the NS-5000. As big stand-mounted speakers go, it visually reminds me of the Harbeth M40.3 XD.
A true Audiophile will have heard the NS1000, which can project musicians into the room with a realness equal only to a high end Wilson etc costing $100,000+
Yes, a true audiophile with an open mind and big budget will audition it. Sadly, the hobby is riddled with posers who would rather practice brand snobbery. Ignore them.
I can totally relate to this, have done diy speakers myself for years and have done the 'one upgrade at a time' stuff, you are absolutely correct in what you say and well described too. I use air core inductors (14-15AWG) Had 18AWG before, the difference was night and day in Bass response. These things do matter and its so audible and convincing in listening tests its not funny. I always laugh when people say, in a blind test you wouldn't pick it. Maybe, maybe not, but that's because the mind plays games with us. The differences are definitely there. Also, like you say, capacitors make the largest difference of all in crossovers. I'm currently using Solen Fast (French made) capacitors, relatively inexpensive I guess but noticeably better than cheaper versions. As for Electrolytic's, Yuk, they are disgusting. One question though please how would these Solen's compare in your opinion? Do you have a link to where we can get Sonicaps from? Keep up the good work and keep those big name brands honest.
Thank you for sharing your knowledge with us! I have built your xls encore kit and a clone of decware zen masters. I would love to take a more in-depth class on speaker design. Do you have any plans to create something like that or know where I might find a good virtual class? Any suggestions are appreciated!
I got to see a review of the legend series. L200-L400 or L800 with the twin tweeters like the old polks with the umbilical cord that goes to the other speaker. Thanks Danny
Couple of years ago you have promised to continue with the very entertaining "Audiophile cables make a difference, here's the Proof!" series. Any plans ro revive it soon anytime soon? It was so much fun!
@@dannyrichie9743 That's brilliant, thank you! It's time to prove the recording and electronic engineers wrong and show that even with measurably and miserably distorting amps and speakers, one can easily distinguish between standard and fancy speaker cables of similar gauge and length in a controlled environment.
Some wants to hear a demo of a high end speaker on their who knows what systems.This is technically impossible you just can't watch 8K on regular HD TV.Things that you will hear will be limited by your system.Better hear those speakers with compatible electronics live because even recording has many variables such as room acoustics, microphone fidelity etc.These guys are dedicated to perfection on sound quality so buying custom kit from them would definitely worth it.I have checked crossovers of my Jamo 707 i speakers they do look cheap.I will go for an upgrade and I will buy new DIY speakers kit from GR Research.Selling them and going for a brand new kit might be a better option.
Hey Danny have you ever had the pleasure of hearing or working on proac future 0.5 speaker they are a very unusual design that are open baffle at top end while woofer is in a downward ported box they are a very good speaker but there is always room for improvement.
I think one reason that manufacturers aren't putting the best parts in the crossover is because you can't see it. Most customers aren't going to take a look at it or ask questions about it. Looks are usually more important than quality
Also it's so their budget speakers don't sound as good. I got some B&W 706s and they sound like the singers are singing with a sock in their mouth. No throaty sound at all. But their 800 series seem to have that (going by TH-cam). So I reckon the 800 series is about the only B&Ws that are any good. 😅
Years ago I got to hear a pair of RadioShack Mach One speakers with a custom xo.with $600 of parts. Huge upgrade and probably better than most 3k speakers.
I've always used non-polar electrolytic caps on active system tweeters to protect them. There are a few MFR that say since they block frequencies well below the high pass XO, they do not impact the sound. Now I am second guessing that. It seems that any part, even if it is not functioning in the normal XO topology will impact the sound. Is that right?
I would love to try the upgrade kits on a pair of speakers but this seems a little intimidating to take on. What do you recommend to prepare for this endeavor?
Be good if someone could send you the 50th Anniversary version of the Polk Reserve R200 with the upgraded crossover parts to get your take on what they used.
Good video DR. Fortunately, or not, I don't have your "golden ears" (ie years of experience) that requires me to spend a lot of money on the nth degree of improvement in audio. However, I do enjoy experiementing with tech and may upgrade my Elac Debut 5.2 bookshelves (or send them to you) as a fun project. I do believe that most of your improvements are "directionally correct" but, unfortunately, beyond my hearing capabilities.
When watching these upgrade videos, I'd love to hear more about comparables. Better than upgraded encore? nx studio? I know the upgrades with make all the speakers better, but how much better?
I wouldn't agree that iron core coils are so bad. Of corse core has it's impact, may add little bit of distortion but it is unnoticeable in bass region. On the other hand if you replace such a coil with aircoil you will end up with higher inner resistance and worsen damping factor. Of corse one can use 8AWG air coils or ever 6AWG but these are hugely expensive. So for bass region I prefer 13AWG iron core coils that in fact have even less resintance than 8AWG copper foil air core coils and are much cheaper.
If those XO's are the upgrades for the Polk's on the table, where do you put them in your room? Leaving them external adds extra cable and connectors in the path. I am sure there is method to your madness, but the size of that XO is just ridiculous imho.
So my TRIANGLE Antal ESW can sound better if i replace mid-tweeter parts ?!!!.... they have Triangle XO pieces.. i don't know if they are enough good ... Thank Danny.. you make me very curious to try......
last year i found at the dumpster 1 pair of bose 301mk2 listen to a day or two and opened up to see bose tech jajajajajjajaja there was a bulb a cap and a resistor
I would never spend that kind of money on those high end capacitors. There are much cheaper film and foil polypropylene that will work just as good for the midrange or tweeter. and for the Woofer I use Non-Polarized Electrolytic Capacitors because you cannot hear the difference. I have A-B them side by side and cannot hear any difference what so ever; but I will use the Film and Foil type on the midrange and tweeter. I know this man designs some great crossovers but why spend hundreds of dollars on the most expensive caps if you cant hear the difference. Electrolytic caps will last 15 to 30 years. if they start going bad I can change them out they are very inexpensive. I understand there may be a sound difference in the upper frequencies that is why I don't use electrolytic there, but for the woofer why not.
Just because your ears or your system does not allow for differences to be heard by you does not mean that there are no differences. On most systems those differences are not only easy to hear, but often not subtle either. The parts that I used in this upgrade are the real expensive ones. These are the bang for the buck parts.
Great overview Danny. To really get a better speaker a person probably needs to 10x or 20x their expenditure vs. going 2x or 3x on price. That 3x on price does not really get you that much more. And what most fail to realize is the same also applies to preamps and power amps. Even at 10k for a preamp, it does not contain the best parts. Just like the 300 dollar/pair of speakers the mfgr. can not afford to put the best parts in the 10k or 15k preamp.
Danny has said it time and time again, but I think in a lot of cases it still fails to sink in. I paid $1500 for these speakers, so I expect to get $1500 worth of speakers... No you are getting $300 worth of speakers with a fancy looking case to give the impression you are getting $1500 worth of speakers. Never do I think it hit home more then when I pulled apart my $13,000 Sonus Faber Cremonas. I roughly priced up all of the parts and I honestly don't think there is more than a couple of thousand dollars worth of parts at retail prices. Come upgrade time I looked at buying some mid $40k speakers. But in reality I might be getting $6k - $7k worth of speakers and a whole lot of mark up, so I decided DIY was the only way to go to upgrade.
@@DodgyBrothersEngineering yes, quite agree. Same with the Wilsons I have. Took them apart to look at xover components. They were potted, but scraping off potting reveals no real expensive parts. Same was also true on a pair of Rockports. Too few seem to understand the importance of high quality xover parts.
@@mcgjohn22 just looking at a photo I took probably 12 years ago of the crossover. Armed with the knowledge I now have from Danny, I don't think theses crossovers are as impressive as I once thought they were. The caps are branded Sonus Faber but I suspect that they are probably something like a mid quality Mundorf. The inductors are not as flash as I once thought with 2 out the 5 inductors having metal looking ends on them (probably woofers). There is one sand cast resistor (again probably woofer) but for $13000 you would expect better. Looking at them again just reinforces my decision to go active DIY.
@@DodgyBrothersEngineering Some of the latest SF series are now using better grade caps, air core inductors and have moved away from sand cast resistors.
@@mcgjohn22 think it is a bit of a sliding scale. Decades ago I saw photos on the Sonus Faber website of these massive crossovers in something like a 4 litre ice-cream containers filled with resin. And the cabinets were made out of real thick wood, much like a barrel maker would make a barrel. Foolishly this was what I was expecting when I bought the Cremonas (seeing the cabinets looked like the ones in the pictures). Seems that those photos were of gear that was around the $100,000+ mark, not the $13,000 mark. Most of what was in my crossover was decent quality with a couple of less than optimal parts on the woofer. I can only imagine what was in the couple of thousand dollar gear. I don't think Sonus Faber is any different to any other manufacturer out there. Speakers are mostly about the looks and not so much substance under the hood. While I can't complain about any of the Sonus Faber speakers I have owned. I think most of the time you are paying for the looks, rather than the components. That's why I currently own some real ugly looking speakers that sound great.
I have Ohms and I enjoy them for my LCR application. As every person who involves themselves in this field, could they be improved is the question? Have yo any experience with the newer models with the tweeter?
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I can not wait !!
Thank you so much Danny !
What puzzles me is, when you have to spend so much money on a passive filter. And alot of people bi amp, why not active cross one side even a passive filter on the preamp side and then go to the amp would be great and alot cheaper. Then 2nd of why do systems with bi-amp capabilities don't put the active cross-over capabilities in the dsp.
I realy wonder....
For the amount of money that a lot of people spend on factory built speakers, it makes a lot more sense to build your own and use a tri amp electronic crossover system. This dramatically improves everything. No more crossover distortion. No more efficiency deficit better transient response and finally a perfectly flat frequency response. Plus you still end up saving money compared to commercially manufactured high-end speakers.
@ke4uyp I caught my 703 on sale for $450 U.S. adorama had a 2 day sale only basically giving them away cost about $400-450 to make ! They did sale for $1500 from 2012-2021 ' Build quality is very very good !
LSIM build quality better than Reserved or Legend Series ' hands down ! ! But they didn't sale that well 😕
I had the opportunity to meet Matthew Polk in the late 70s. Polk was located in SW Baltimore at the time which was pretty close to my patrol area. One day I simply knocked on the door after hours and he's the one who answered. I introduced myself and explained my audio passion and to my surprise he led me on a guided tour of the facility. I was particularly intrigued with the R&D room. One feature that I still remember to this day was a turntable sitting on top of a solid block of granite. He was very gracious and even gave me a dealer number so I could buy direct from Polk. You are so right about dealer markups; I was shocked to learn how much it was. One takeaway from the two videos featuring that Polk speaker is that they were able to favorably impress you even with the cheesy crossover parts. You've tested many speakers way above their price point that got nothing but your distain. So my hat's off to Polk. Anyway, I still say a speaker company could kill their competition by using better parts and advertising that fact. As for the crossovers you made, they deserve to be in a museum grade glass display box. They are works of art.
polk audio #1
Love your work Danny!
What you talk about, especially when it comes sonic Caps and RF noise is like music to my ears.
It's about time you become your own "Made in Texas" brand.
Lucky to have you.
This should be pinned as a reference video for anyone wanting to understand the design tradeoffs between performance and cost. Great explanation of why the same value of component can sound different. And how that impacts costs as well. Good job!
Yes, totally agree, just so as a new watcher we understand what is going on with the rest of the upgrade series.
As a long time DIY guy, and someone who has done quite a few similar types of upgrades over the years, I can vouch 100% for what Danny is saying here.
Spatial cues are one of the main things that these types of upgrades get you. Of course, more detail too.
Define detail
Taken from BK’s Dictionary of English Stupidity & Otherworldly Knowledge.
Detail:
1. Is the action of removing the tail from cooked shrimp etc. Similarly, the prefix of “de” is also used with the word “bug” to denote the removal of bugs, whether figurative or literal from a computer etc.
2. The amount of information density or resolution in a picture, music recording, the careful crafting in fine fancy furniture etc.
3. verb, detailing: the act of obsessively cleaning the interior of a car so that it is as close as possible to brand spankin new.
4. In audio, proper or correct detail is when the human auditory system is fooled into thinking there is a live performance in the room, even when the performance is only being recreated by rapid flapping of paper or other materials of choice.
@@bk3720 much as I thought. You have no idea what you are talking about. Clueless springs to mind.
OMG ! DANNY WHAT DiD YOU DO !! TO MY SPEAKER 😆
Thank you so much Danny I can not wait !! I will have progress videos of Polk as well. EXCITED to 👂
A(nother) great video... that crossover is a work of art . a fine sculpture .
I would much rather listen / learn from you, about these advances...
than [you] try and record, render the differences... [for others]
Keep doing what you are doing, you .are. the best at it... KUDOS!
Mighty awesome. Love your work & videos...Peace out 🇬🇧🇯🇲🇯🇲👊🏾
I could have bought better speakers but I choose to upgrade the crossovers. I doubt that even 1500€ speakers would have same level components I've put in them. And also some all important room treatment. Saved me a lot of money and completely transformed my listening experience. And once again, thank Danny for sharing the knowledge and inspiring us to do it ourselves.
Edit: guess it would have to be way more expensive speakers, since the crossovers I've made cost 250€ in parts.
Wow, those crossovers are a thing of beauty. I like the post below, which mentions putting them in boxes with glass fronts. TJ is going to blown away.
Better than stuffing them into the boxes (somehow). 😅
I hope so 😆
As we've seen multiple times on this very channel, price is no guarantee of quality. But sunk cost fallacy exists. We all have to think about what we're getting when we throw some extra money at it. Some speakers are well worth upgrading. Others are not.
Fantastic video Danny ,we all needed this .
Thank you this was a great video. First, thank you for confirming the price-to-part ratio for mass produced speakers. Second, thank you for breaking down the parts and what makes good / better / best in terms of crossover. Information packed!
I have built 2 speakers from Danny, the latest being the NX Studio. I have asked many a question through email or calling and they always get back to you right away and cheerfully. Never a problem. It is so easy with their help. Most of all you get a product that blows everything else out of the water. Every one of my friends and audiophile buddies cannot believe how these things image, width and depth of soundstage, clarity and quality. With flat pack and kit from GR it was around $1k. Nothing I have heard competes with them. I can’t even imagine what the Oticas or NXstremes sound like. GR Reasearch team is honest and trustworthy. Thanks
Built the same NX Studio and with the Film and Foil Inductors Upgrades. Very Detailed sounding speaker, but a Subwoofer is recommended.
Yes. Depending on your room, absolutely a sub is needed and 2 is even better!!!
Thanks for the tec talk, great to have concise explanations on a topic with so many rabbit holes. I did a sound sweep on my X-Statiks that uncovered a problem at 105 hz and again at a lower frequency. The vibration was coming from the fireplace grill. I have got to fix it before we listen to Tommy again.
Had similar problems. Took a while and a whole lot of looped sweeps at different frequency to get it all sorted. Fix one and find another... Chasing for cancelation and peaking frequencies on the listening position is also good fun, hours go by and you don't even notice it. Took me long time to fix the 100Hz range because I couldn't move anything from where it is. Managed to do it by raising the crossover point on the sub and inverting the phase. It was literally inaudible before it as fixed.
Awesome. Looking forward to your in-wall speaker upgrade kits.
Another awesome video. We are lucky to have you giving out all of this tech gold for free! Love it!
Bravo, Bravo, I enjoyed this video a lot, keep'em coming there very "Interesting."👋
Excellent vid
True, unless its one of those "esoteric" companies using flashy and unnecessarily expensive cosmetic materials then marking it up 10,000%.
But great to know "built to a price point" speakers are easily upgradeable thanks to people like Danny --- although its still a matter of an "upgrade bang for the buck".
Great video, love the channel, I was wondering if you’ve ever done a set of Polk 10s there from the 80s, have a nice nice day
That's some nice work there....................................
Acid Jazz, Funk & Brass 🔈🔉🔊
This is probably the best video you've done or the at least the best I watched so far . I would love to order the best speaker model you got sometime in the future and ship it to me fully assembled to Australia , if that's possible. Thanks and best regards 👍❗️
Another fantastic video Danny !!
Spot on, great content and well explained.
I understand you have great experience of how certain components sound and can predict results to some degree. However the sound signature of different drivers and cabinets may not always give the optimum results with the same crossover components. Don't you think that some combinations may have a better synergy that you will only know if you listen. I saw Jay finessing his speakers trying a range of high end capacitors, which were all good, but one or two stood out as better than the others. He would not have known for that particular speaker without listening.
That is a good point and we often do make some of those comparisons with different speakers.
I think its a good idea to have external crossover kit options with nice exclosures
Ended doing exactly that myself after experimenting with a couple of DIY active multi ways, and finding that without extensive DSP - which is a whole ‘nother can of worms - a well executed passive sounded as good if not better, but wouldn’t readily fit in the specific enclosures.
More internal volume too.
@@Justwantahover There’s also the suspected microphonic effects of bass frequencies on the much physically larger components, particularly capacitors.
Just the fact alone that sound clips can not reproduce the dimension, openness and spatial ques tells me that the human brain and ears are doing something that still can not be measured objectively or quantitized. I can’t wait to upgrade my crossovers, these videos from Danny get me super inspired. I like that Danny says we can send a picture of the finished crossover because one of my hurdles is concern about hurting something in my system. Although I suspect that amp protection would negate that.
The upgrades effects can all be measured and explained. Better parts, like hotrodding a car. The new parts are tighter tolerance and made of better materials. There may be psychoacoustic benefits beyond that.
Danny has given the speaker what it needed to work optmally vs compromising to meet a price point.
The effects are not all measurable. Capacitors can measure exactly the same but people can hear a difference. Our brains are more sensitive which hurts a lot of engineers feelings
@@CanberraProtest-dm6huThat’s like saying regardless of quicker 0-60mph times of high end sports cars, you can just say “but my car feels faster, engineering is not everything”.
Excellent information 👌👌
Thanks😊
Good job!
Holy crap, TJ is smoke up a big 'ol J after getting these!
I miss these Tech talk type videos! Lots of great info here. Keep up the great work Danny.
Danny’s kits really are great. After upgrading my RF’s, I wouldn’t think of buying something else.
You really need to just dive in to know what you’re missing. Even just no-rez and his terminals make a difference.
He’s right about not being able to “unhear” resonance.
Who is Jerry?
@@dannyrichie9743I think that's you. Jerry.😂
Lol😂my bad!
This is awesome. One thing I always wonder though is how compromised the drivers are in many cases, and not much can be done with that.
In my many decades of experience tinkering with various speaker designs, and also improving countless brands and models of used speakers that I've picked up for free or super cheap at a thrift store or the like, from what I've noticed as a trend, is as long as the overall speaker is well built and looks and feels good, and is relatively heavy, then usually the overall quality of the cabinet is at least good, and can be worked with, and the overall quality of the individual drivers themselves, (woofers, tweeters, etc), are usually also decent and useable, but in MOST speakers, pretty much regardless of original retail cost, the "weakest link" in the entire speaker is usually, (almost always), the crossover components themselves, (capacitors, inductors, etc), mainly because, as Danny said, every speaker is made to a price point, and since the crossovers of speakers aren't seen by the consumer, because they're usually totally hidden inside the cabinets, and because most people don't know how they work OR what truly good quality parts for those even look like anyway, plus the fact that the crossovers for a truly good sounding speaker will almost always be the MOST expensive part of the overall speaker to make to extremely high quality, "audiophile" standards in order to get the absolute best possible sound out of the overall speaker, the crossovers are usually the place where most manufacturers, especially mass market ones, will "cut corners" to keep the speaker at a certain price point... So, upgrading the crossovers yourself with MUCH higher quality parts is most oftentimes the best upgrade to a speaker that you can do, along with additional cabinet bracing, sealing, and adding of insulation or damping material if it has none or very little, which is usually pretty cheap to do, but the drivers in decently good quality speakers are usually quite acceptable or even actually pretty good to start with, at least moreso than the crossover components usually are...
With speaker upgrades and improvements, you start with the weakest link and/or the cheapest and easiest things to improve the sound the MOST, for the lowest relative cost, and then if all of that stuff doesn't make it a good sounding speaker then you might as well just go work on another, better built, better overall beginning quality speaker entirely, because if you ever go the route of totally replacing the individual drivers themselves with better quality ones, then you've basically totally changed the overall speaker to something else entirely anyway, because with totally different drivers in it, it's not even a (whatever brand it was when you started working on it) anymore anyway... At that point you'd be better off just custom designing a cabinet and crossover around/for those specific high quality drivers you want to use, instead of ever thinking about changing the ones out in an already pre made, brand name speaker.
You learn what to look for to begin with I guess, in speaker upgrades, and if you find a decent looking and well built speaker on the used market somewhere, preferably in a thrift store or such, where you can get a "feel" for its build and apparent driver quality (from the front outside anyway), AND you can make sure that it at least works properly and at least sounds good, with no damaged or blown drivers, and the cabinets are made out of a decently heavy and structurally sound material, then you at least have a decent candidate for a beginning upgrade experiment.
That's how I got started in doing this as a hobby, and now after so many decades and literally hundreds of different speakers, I now know exactly what to look for (AND things to avoid) when buying a used speaker to improve, that way as long as "the bones are good" to begin with, then you can improve the crossover and usually get the MOST additional sound quality improvements with most speakers. Usually the drivers themselves, (as long as they're all of a decent quality and design to begin with, like woofers with rubber surrounds for longevity, a decent magnet and voice coil size, (usually somewhat indicated by the relative size of the dust cap), and preferably real full dome or ribbon type tweeters vs. just cones or semi-dome cheap tweeters), then you have at least decent drivers to deal with to begin with, and can usually improve the crossovers inside such speakers, (ones that also have decently heavy cabinets), and bring those types of speakers up to a pretty amazingly awesome level, sound quality wise!
I have quite a few pairs of upgraded speakers that I've found for around $20/pair on average at thrift stores and such, that now sound about as good as they possibly can, and many which now compare sound quality wise to MUCH higher end speakers which cost many hundreds or thousands more than what I have into any of them, including the crossover upgrade costs!... (I actually need to start selling some of them in their improved form, because I've just got too many pairs for my space now, LOL!)
In any case, and whatever route you take in either upgrading existing speakers, and/or designing and building your own speakers from scratch, it's a very fun hobby, and it teaches you a LOT about what all makes for TRULY great sound quality! (i.e. all of the things that make the biggest and MOST important differences in regards to that)
The bottom line in this is to just have fun tinkering, and let your ears be the final judge with speakers, because if you find a way to make a speaker sound amazing to YOU, then you've done something right, and hopefully you've learned something that will help you to improve other speakers in the future, if you so choose to... Enjoy the learning experience AND listening experience, and just have fun with your experimenting, whatever route you may go!
@@JoeJ-8282Thanks for all the info! Very interesting.
It's extremely interesting, that some people think that parts are just parts & better quality parts don't make a difference, I alway say to these people, why don't Rolls-Royce, use cheap fiat parts for there cars, if parts don't make a difference, if you look under the hood of a Rolls-Royce, you will only see quality, you only get what you pay for, another great video Danny👍
I've always been a fan of biamp and triamp setups, it avoids a lot of sonic problems.
Actually it doesn't really change much unless you have a really large woofer that creates a big back EFM.
25:47 also, if you use GR-Research quality crossover you can improve your cabinet finish. 😁
The technical name for iron core inductor distortion is Barkhausen noise.
In other words, cheap iron core inductors add more bark to your woofers.😁😁😁. It has the potential to turn a speaker into a real dog!
I got Danny's crossovers in give me one month and i will have them finished ! Danny made it very easy for me and answered my questions very quickly! Its on ! Got new Soldiering Iron and high end soldier ! Thanks Danny ! Looks like a piece of artwork to me !!
Very good SUPPORT!
I’d love to See more crossover work and tuning with some older SNELL’s or Meadowlark Audio loudspeakers
Send them in, then we'll see
Danny, you are great. This is why I love GR Research and all the work and expertise you show us.
I also love Meadowlark Audio from the 90’s to the early-mid 00’s. I am
Not familiar with Pats recent work with his DSP powered speakers, but bang for the buck, you can’t beat Meadowlark Audio from those days !
There was a Heron model that was ridiculous for the money, I listened to them via Audio Research and a nice Acoustic Signature turntable. B-52s to jazz, they were incredible.
Also most recordings aren’t top 1%so…. Duh
excellent explanation
Another great show man and this gets to the core of why you wanna upgrade with the best components because you can make the decisions and not somebody else, Besides, designing awesomeness into the situation, usually means well, you’re gonna get awesomeness… Lol… anyway… Keep on rocking.
As someone who has only had cheap speakers, I now understand what goes into the more expensive speakers and how they reproduce better souond from the same sources. Thanks.
At the price of decent amplifiers these days, it seems that biamping and using much smaller caps and resistors in the line level crossover would be worth offering!
BTDT, and it can work, but note there are some limitations with unbuffered Passive Line Level XO. Another option would be something like miniDSP; takes some fiddling about and learning curve, but can deliver satisfying results. Of course there are still limitations there, which Danny could very likely address better than I.
Passive line level could work, but require even more knowledge than passive speaker level crossovers. I did not specify passive or active@@fonkenful
Great video
I picked up some polk tsi300 mtm towers used the other day. Best 50 bucks ive spent in a long time. They sound so good i was shocked. Im now a fan of polk lol. I have a full episode surround sound kit. Believe its the 500 series which i paid 70 for those and an onkyo reciever. My 120 system rocks and sounds amazing. I love buying used and getting killer deals. Alot of people think you have to spend tons of money. Well, you dont have to thats for sure. Id never heard of episode previously and im very impressed. Funny thing is i thought they were generic lol. They are def not thats for sure. Im really impressed by the polk towers. I had no idea polk was so good. Im currently watching the used market for more killer deals. Id like to upgrade the xover parts in these speakers. That would be interesting.
We were all set to buy Magico but stopped off to hear Yamaha NS-5000 on the way to the store. We saved $10K and bought the NS-5000. I think they fit Dan's sensibilities. We have older speakers with MDF cabinets and the screw holes are trashed. The drivers are hanging. There are designers out there who allege crossovers kill tone quality. It's like wine. You buy a compromise between what you like and what you can afford.
Yes , and put t nuts in the baffle and machine screws to facilitate the drivers. At least the heavy ones like bass and midbass drivers .
You just mention "Yamaha" and audiophiles cringe, but I've only seen good reviews of the NS-5000. As big stand-mounted speakers go, it visually reminds me of the Harbeth M40.3 XD.
A true Audiophile will have heard the NS1000, which can project musicians into the room with a realness equal only to a high end Wilson etc costing $100,000+
Yes, a true audiophile with an open mind and big budget will audition it. Sadly, the hobby is riddled with posers who would rather practice brand snobbery. Ignore them.
Great informative video
I'm still loving my GR Upgraded Carnegie CST-1's
A big "Like" to your channel from Italy👍
I always love your videos. Which bulk film metal resistors do you use? Vishay? Thanks Danny.
Thanks . Allways maser info. One day i will ask you for help
I can totally relate to this, have done diy speakers myself for years and have done the 'one upgrade at a time' stuff, you are absolutely correct in what you say and well described too. I use air core inductors (14-15AWG) Had 18AWG before, the difference was night and day in Bass response. These things do matter and its so audible and convincing in listening tests its not funny. I always laugh when people say, in a blind test you wouldn't pick it. Maybe, maybe not, but that's because the mind plays games with us. The differences are definitely there. Also, like you say, capacitors make the largest difference of all in crossovers. I'm currently using Solen Fast (French made) capacitors, relatively inexpensive I guess but noticeably better than cheaper versions. As for Electrolytic's, Yuk, they are disgusting.
One question though please how would these Solen's compare in your opinion? Do you have a link to where we can get Sonicaps from?
Keep up the good work and keep those big name brands honest.
Inexpensive? I see some Solen caps for 700usd. Where would you buy in - $50?
Thank you Danny. It is away good to educate oneself. My question 4 u. How does this all stand up too going active?
I dont think ive ever seen a crossover that large before.
Thank you for sharing your knowledge with us! I have built your xls encore kit and a clone of decware zen masters. I would love to take a more in-depth class on speaker design. Do you have any plans to create something like that or know where I might find a good virtual class? Any suggestions are appreciated!
Bought the large lsim center on amazon for 400 bucks. Best deal ever.
Not to mention shipping from china
Or buy your full speaker kits. 👍
EXCELENTE INFORMACION,SALUDOS DESDE ARGENTINA!
and thanks to your new President for his speech at the WEF - may we all live to pursue our hobbies in the future.
I got to see a review of the legend series. L200-L400 or L800 with the twin tweeters like the old polks with the umbilical cord that goes to the other speaker. Thanks Danny
Couple of years ago you have promised to continue with the very entertaining "Audiophile cables make a difference, here's the Proof!" series. Any plans ro revive it soon anytime soon? It was so much fun!
Yeah, we have some stuff along those lines coming up.
@@dannyrichie9743 That's brilliant, thank you! It's time to prove the recording and electronic engineers wrong and show that even with measurably and miserably distorting amps and speakers, one can easily distinguish between standard and fancy speaker cables of similar gauge and length in a controlled environment.
Iron core coils hold a residual magnetic field, not a residual charge. The iron slugs charge remains zero at all times.
I had a pair of 703's. I should have kept them. They're about $400-$700/pr on the used market. Worth every penny.
Some wants to hear a demo of a high end speaker on their who knows what systems.This is technically impossible you just can't watch 8K on regular HD TV.Things that you will hear will be limited by your system.Better hear those speakers with compatible electronics live because even recording has many variables such as room acoustics, microphone fidelity etc.These guys are dedicated to perfection on sound quality so buying custom kit from them would definitely worth it.I have checked crossovers of my Jamo 707 i speakers they do look cheap.I will go for an upgrade and I will buy new DIY speakers kit from GR Research.Selling them and going for a brand new kit might be a better option.
I would love to see a video on the JBL L 300's
Im listening to this in my living room with GR research speakers, and it's like Danny's right here with me. 😆
Great discussion.
Mr.Pete-------->
aging hippie
I wish you could do the Dali Spektor 6 :)
Send one in.
@@dannyrichie9743 Thank you so much for offering to look at it, but I live in Ireland, it would cost a few pennies to send one over.
Hey Danny have you ever had the pleasure of hearing or working on proac future 0.5 speaker they are a very unusual design that are open baffle at top end while woofer is in a downward ported box they are a very good speaker but there is always room for improvement.
I think one reason that manufacturers aren't putting the best parts in the crossover is because you can't see it. Most customers aren't going to take a look at it or ask questions about it. Looks are usually more important than quality
Also it's so their budget speakers don't sound as good. I got some B&W 706s and they sound like the singers are singing with a sock in their mouth. No throaty sound at all. But their 800 series seem to have that (going by TH-cam). So I reckon the 800 series is about the only B&Ws that are any good. 😅
@@Justwantahover 800s still have very lumpy frequency response. But, they do image amazingly well, and voices sound great on them...
Years ago I got to hear a pair of RadioShack Mach One speakers with a custom xo.with $600 of parts. Huge upgrade and probably better than most 3k speakers.
One more remark, flagship 140.000 USD Sonus Faber Aida II uses electrolytic caps and iron core coils in almost every part of the crossover.
Dang
I've always used non-polar electrolytic caps on active system tweeters to protect them. There are a few MFR that say since they block frequencies well below the high pass XO, they do not impact the sound. Now I am second guessing that. It seems that any part, even if it is not functioning in the normal XO topology will impact the sound. Is that right?
Your entire signal to the tweeter is passing through that cap. It very much effects how it sounds.
I would love to try the upgrade kits on a pair of speakers but this seems a little intimidating to take on. What do you recommend to prepare for this endeavor?
Be good if someone could send you the 50th Anniversary version of the Polk Reserve R200 with the upgraded crossover parts to get your take on what they used.
Good video DR. Fortunately, or not, I don't have your "golden ears" (ie years of experience) that requires me to spend a lot of money on the nth degree of improvement in audio. However, I do enjoy experiementing with tech and may upgrade my Elac Debut 5.2 bookshelves (or send them to you) as a fun project. I do believe that most of your improvements are "directionally correct" but, unfortunately, beyond my hearing capabilities.
I seen sand caster resistor high end amplifiers websites
Can’t get enough of these vids Danny
When watching these upgrade videos, I'd love to hear more about comparables. Better than upgraded encore? nx studio? I know the upgrades with make all the speakers better, but how much better?
This upgrade may bring them up to 90 to 95% of the performance of the X-LS Encore, but no where near the NX Studio. It is in a different league.
I am itching for a portable boom box based of the xls cores if it will ever become a reality
A dealer years ago explained for higher cost equipment is you have to pay for the price 😂
I wouldn't agree that iron core coils are so bad. Of corse core has it's impact, may add little bit of distortion but it is unnoticeable in bass region. On the other hand if you replace such a coil with aircoil you will end up with higher inner resistance and worsen damping factor. Of corse one can use 8AWG air coils or ever 6AWG but these are hugely expensive. So for bass region I prefer 13AWG iron core coils that in fact have even less resintance than 8AWG copper foil air core coils and are much cheaper.
If those XO's are the upgrades for the Polk's on the table, where do you put them in your room? Leaving them external adds extra cable and connectors in the path. I am sure there is method to your madness, but the size of that XO is just ridiculous imho.
Also what amps and dacs ext cords do u use? What's your source?
So my TRIANGLE Antal ESW can sound better if i replace mid-tweeter parts ?!!!.... they have Triangle XO pieces.. i don't know if they are enough good ... Thank Danny.. you make me very curious to try......
Email me photos.
Wow. That is a BIGBOY TEXAN XOVER❤
Seems like your show should be titled "who spends more on their crossover components" .
last year i found at the dumpster 1 pair of bose 301mk2 listen to a day or two and opened up to see bose tech jajajajajjajaja there was a bulb a cap and a resistor
I would never spend that kind of money on those high end capacitors. There are much cheaper film and foil polypropylene that will work just as good for the midrange or tweeter. and for the Woofer I use Non-Polarized Electrolytic Capacitors because you cannot hear the difference. I have A-B them side by side and cannot hear any difference what so ever; but I will use the Film and Foil type on the midrange and tweeter. I know this man designs some great crossovers but why spend hundreds of dollars on the most expensive caps if you cant hear the difference. Electrolytic caps will last 15 to 30 years. if they start going bad I can change them out they are very inexpensive. I understand there may be a sound difference in the upper frequencies that is why I don't use electrolytic there, but for the woofer why not.
Just because your ears or your system does not allow for differences to be heard by you does not mean that there are no differences. On most systems those differences are not only easy to hear, but often not subtle either. The parts that I used in this upgrade are the real expensive ones. These are the bang for the buck parts.
Great overview Danny. To really get a better speaker a person probably needs to 10x or 20x their expenditure vs. going 2x or 3x on price. That 3x on price does not really get you that much more. And what most fail to realize is the same also applies to preamps and power amps. Even at 10k for a preamp, it does not contain the best parts. Just like the 300 dollar/pair of speakers the mfgr. can not afford to put the best parts in the 10k or 15k preamp.
Danny has said it time and time again, but I think in a lot of cases it still fails to sink in. I paid $1500 for these speakers, so I expect to get $1500 worth of speakers... No you are getting $300 worth of speakers with a fancy looking case to give the impression you are getting $1500 worth of speakers. Never do I think it hit home more then when I pulled apart my $13,000 Sonus Faber Cremonas. I roughly priced up all of the parts and I honestly don't think there is more than a couple of thousand dollars worth of parts at retail prices. Come upgrade time I looked at buying some mid $40k speakers. But in reality I might be getting $6k - $7k worth of speakers and a whole lot of mark up, so I decided DIY was the only way to go to upgrade.
@@DodgyBrothersEngineering yes, quite agree. Same with the Wilsons I have. Took them apart to look at xover components. They were potted, but scraping off potting reveals no real expensive parts. Same was also true on a pair of Rockports. Too few seem to understand the importance of high quality xover parts.
@@mcgjohn22 just looking at a photo I took probably 12 years ago of the crossover. Armed with the knowledge I now have from Danny, I don't think theses crossovers are as impressive as I once thought they were. The caps are branded Sonus Faber but I suspect that they are probably something like a mid quality Mundorf. The inductors are not as flash as I once thought with 2 out the 5 inductors having metal looking ends on them (probably woofers). There is one sand cast resistor (again probably woofer) but for $13000 you would expect better. Looking at them again just reinforces my decision to go active DIY.
@@DodgyBrothersEngineering Some of the latest SF series are now using better grade caps, air core inductors and have moved away from sand cast resistors.
@@mcgjohn22 think it is a bit of a sliding scale. Decades ago I saw photos on the Sonus Faber website of these massive crossovers in something like a 4 litre ice-cream containers filled with resin. And the cabinets were made out of real thick wood, much like a barrel maker would make a barrel. Foolishly this was what I was expecting when I bought the Cremonas (seeing the cabinets looked like the ones in the pictures). Seems that those photos were of gear that was around the $100,000+ mark, not the $13,000 mark. Most of what was in my crossover was decent quality with a couple of less than optimal parts on the woofer. I can only imagine what was in the couple of thousand dollar gear.
I don't think Sonus Faber is any different to any other manufacturer out there. Speakers are mostly about the looks and not so much substance under the hood. While I can't complain about any of the Sonus Faber speakers I have owned. I think most of the time you are paying for the looks, rather than the components. That's why I currently own some real ugly looking speakers that sound great.
The best part is those polks are worth about $400-600 used right now. So you’re talking under $2k all in if you want.
Not enough room in those boxes for the great big crossovers. 😅
I believe they mount externally in a seperate enclosure.
Watch the video....
Because it's changing from one upgradable to a better upgradable.
Pity you haven't tested my speakers would be interesting to see how they perform
I have Ohms and I enjoy them for my LCR application. As every person who involves themselves in this field, could they be improved is the question?
Have yo any experience with the newer models with the tweeter?
We had some older Ohms come in this week.
@@dannyrichie9743 I hope you share your takes with me.
Makes cents👍🏻
A little long, but a good explanation of why upgrade parts rather than replace the whole speaker.