Rust Is Boring
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 9 พ.ย. 2022
- Today I hope to show you that Rust is ready for use in your company, in production, NOW.
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📄 All my videos are built in compile-checked markdown, transcript sourcecode available here github.com/0atman/noboilerplate this is also where you'll find links to everything mentioned.
🖊️ Corrections are in the pinned ERRATA comment.
🦀 Start your Rust journey here: doc.rust-lang.org/stable/book/
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My name is Tris Oaten and I produce fast, technical videos.
Follow me here / 0atman
Website for the show: noboilerplate.org
Come chat to me on my discord server: / discord
If you like sci-fi, I also produce a hopepunk podcast narrated by a little AI, videos written in Rust! www.lostterminal.com
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ERRATA
- Rocket doesn't have a sql framework - I was thinking of using rocket with sqlx - my favourite rust sql tool which DOES compile-check against injection (and sql syntax errors, it's magic)
- Discord uses Elixir, not Erlang, I guess my confusion was they use the same runtime.
I HATE using Rust!
I'm trying to do this super niche thing using zero-copy deserialization (rkyv) to store directed graph data inside de-duplicated bump arenas (bumpalo) and on top of all that I need to deal with trait objects and a bajillion different derive and attribute procedural macros... and do you know what the worst thing about it is? There's no other language I can use that could even begin to try and do half these things as fast or as safely as rust does them 😭😭😭
@@zyansheep so you actually hate that your use case is so hard to do right, and Rust is just the right tool for the job
Google prompts translate to English and makes todo into all
#ERRATA
all!()
4:21
I could be wrong, but there are no for loops in compiled code. Only branching, jumps and infinite loops.
This is one of the reasons why Rust don't have for loops I believe. While/loop and iterators just compile nicer and in fast code.
I’m pretty sure this dude loves rust.
What are talking dude, he is the ambassador of rust Lang
What makes you think that?
I don't know man, he feels more like a PHP kind of guy.
Garbage game for trash people
If I'm the ambassador, fasterthanli.me is the KING
I swear man, every single time I see a video of yours I have to run to my computer and start learning more about Rust. It’s just ridiculous
You and me both. If my backlog at work wasn't so deep, I'd be rewriting our applications in Rust in my free time. Until then, I continue learning in the hopes that one day I can make the switch
@@penguindrummaster one day at a time
I KNOW RIGHT?
Your videos are just too good, I started learning rust thanks to you ahah
Thank you so much!
_"There are islands of Mac devices, but Linux is the ocean!_
_There are clouds of windows networks but Linux is the sky"_
- No Boilerplate 2022 🎶🎵☺️
Friends don't tell anyone but I'm literally paraphrasing Audioslave here
th-cam.com/video/9ZDAYg196x8/w-d-xo.html
@@NoBoilerplate Still, different and memorable enough that you are on your way to being THE tech quote laureate. I think this will be quoted often; hopefully, with attribution. Now, do one for Rust!
@@BigMTBrain Thank you! My favourite so far is "[these rust projects] are not abandoned, they're DONE"
Well, you can still come by an occasional BSD droplet every now and then
@@mskiptr Ah that's true. Routers tend to be some flavour of BSD
The rust foundation should get you on board as marketing personnel
I'd give ad revenue from my channel to them if they accepted private donations!
I'll just have to continue being the unofficial propaganda department :-D
@@NoBoilerplate Curious to know if that statement stands after the recent events!
@@Souljacker7 same thought.
I think its the biggest pr disasters in the programming space so far.
(for the unknowing and curious, search "Rust Trademark Policy Draft")
I'm an Embedded Software Dev accustom to C to the extent that I managed to trip myself up on a couple of Java coding interviews.
I remember hearing about Rust a couple of years back from someone, but they weren't the best spokesman and quite aggressively annoying about it. I ended up avoiding it out of spite and because I didn't think that any language could be as performant as C (or C++, but I don't wanna talk about that language).
Your videos are excellent, concise, and extremely convincing. Your WASM sub-series even has me interested in attempting to use egui for a Native/Web app. If I can ever get my hands on a microcontroller, I'm probably at the point where I can say that I'd be willing to give Embedded Rust a try over Embedded C.
Thank you for your informative and entertaining videos on the subject! I always look forward to your uploads.
Rust appears to be well suited for writing stuff for stm32 or arm7,8,9. Not so much arduino tho. Im very interested in rust on imx8, and kudos to the guys who wrote the startup boot codes for arm and stuff. I got a teensy4 loaded and blinking in just a few minutes. Now if only esp-if would port its garbage self to rust. why is esp-if the hardest dam kit to use with a chip?
@@orbitalair2103 Huh, I thought it'd be the other way around. Means I might be able to dig out the STM32 Discovery Board I used in University. Any toolchain has to be better than STMCube. 15 GB...
Rust embedded is RIGHT around the corner, I'm so excited to do that - though I build myself a Telegram pager using arduino and SPI, it was a real headache doing it in C.
I couldn't be happier - This is one of the reasons I'm so pumped about Rust - it's a universal language for every layer of the stack - I (a web dev) can build low-level code, and you can get cracking with wasm. What a world!
I recommend trying out the TEENSY 4.1. as far as MCU go, it's a BEAST
These videos…. So great... you’re making me want to rewrite my whole PHP backend in rust when all I can do is print formatted strings.
Should I 😬😬???
@@elliotwilliams7523 Do it
You know where to start friend doc.rust-lang.org/stable/book/
@@elliotwilliams7523 If you want some more convincing: At work we have a backend written in PHP with the Laravel framework with a basic nginx and postgres stack. With that, most of our more basic endpoints take somewhere about 50ms per request and despite running multiple processes of PHP for concurrency and PHP 8's new JIT, the whole thing refuses to run past a few hundred requests per second, even with enabling keepalive in the benchmark tool, and just nginx+PHP already consume about 500MB of memory while *idle*.
Since I wanted to test out some Rust web frameworks anyways, I decided to rewrite a little part of our API in one of them as a PoC. After a few short experiments I eventually settled on Axum, with SeaORM for the database access.
The whole rewrite was a breeze, probably most of it was just translating the database migrations, after that SeaORM just generates the models for you and all that's left is copying a starter from the axum examples and writing the logic for the middlewares and handlers. Since I was only using some of the simple endpoints that was barely any work at all. Once rust-analyzer stopped complaining, the whole thing compiled and worked flawlessly. And the performance is a different order of magnitude entirely.
With keepalive, most requests complete in just 0.01ms with about 13000 req/sec, and even without keepalive its about 0.015ms at 8100 req/sec, and the variance of those numbers is also a lot smaller than for PHP. To top it off, the Rust version peaked at just ~43MB of memory under *full load*.
I like how every entry in the speed list is 2x slower that the one before, but python takes two steps.
Don't get me *started* on python. I'm being generous by not including concurrent code - python's 100s of times slower in that, due to the GIL!
Just goes to show how important those ergonomics are. Python beats almost everyone in that category, which is what sells it.
@@Kiaulen what do you mean "beats"?
@@NoBoilerplate Probably that your nose bleeds after using it. XP
@@Kiaulen 🤣 even Javascript is more ergonomic than Python.
Love your enthusiasm and clear explanations of Rust. I’ve been learning it myself for projects and work. It’d be great to see how it’s used in scientific computing and time series analysis - I haven’t seen any other videos or channels who focus on this field
It's actually because that's not an area of strength for Rust.
In data science, having a fat long-running runtime is an asset, not a liability. Julia's my fav language in this field.
@@NoBoilerplate Can you elaborate on this? Are you using data science and scientific computing interchangeably?
Man, few days ago I checked your channel and was very disappointed that you didn’t post but now I’m happy seeing you again.
It's not you - I actually missed a deadline last week because I was not satisfied with the script for this video, it wasn't punchy enough. I like it now :-)
@@NoBoilerplate I love your commitment to this channel! It's amazing that you chose to delay your video to ensure the quality meets your standards 👏🏻
I love seeing commitment like that and is the reason I can always appreciate every video you make, thank you! ♥️
@@mysterry2000 thank you so much 🙂
I've been (casually) studying rust for almost a year. I recently started a school project with it (frontend with rust, webserver, database bind, rabbitmq bind). It's such a pain, but I love it. When it compiles I'm sure what I'm doing will work. It's not gonna crash at the start
You're on the right track - when the pain of learning has ended, you'll just be left with a language that works basically every single time!
"if you don't use Rust you're missing out on a C change"
I saw what you did there
oh nooooooooooooooo I didn't realise that when I said it XD
If you head out to C, your stuff is likely to get Rusted!
@@quadrannilator arrrrr
I started using Rust earlier this year, I think because I saw one of your videos. It has seriously brought my love of programming to a whole new level.
I totally feel the same way, it's like a renaissance!
The Discord thing never ceases to amuse me. The Go team deciding "No matter what we are going to do a FULL HEAP SCAN every 2 minutes, even if your memory usage has not changed at all."
Like... what. I know they didn't want to add parameters to their GC but that is such an insane arbitrary decision it boggles my mind.
Is it me or is it not possible to write a GC without these pauses? I feel like I've been debugging them in various languages at scale my whole career. I won't miss them!
@@NoBoilerplate this case they could have because they preallocated the memory one time then never altered it. The issue was go assumed something was wrong if it was never scanning the heap so automatically did it every two minutes.
If it allocate everything at once and never change the data there is zero reason to collect.
@@WizardofWestmarch I suppose after "extensive optimisation" Discord couldn't get the data into a good format?
@@NoBoilerplate wasn't about format. The GC just always ran because when they ran into the problem it was hard coded to run every two minutes at a minimum. I've heard newer versions of Go fixed this but I don't use the language so that's hearsay from me.
@@NoBoilerplate there are a couple more recent GCs for the JVM that claim to be pauseless and run completely concurrently with program code. on the other hand, it's on the JVM.
C is brilliant, I love it. You do need a couple of crutches to hobble around sometimes. Rust is actually non-boring, and you don't shoot your feet.
I think that’s the point. It’s boring once you learn the borrow checker because it’s difficult to write buggy code. There are many fewer adventures trying to track down segfaults, buffer overflows, etc
@@sploders1019 Oh I know. I once had a gig to shift a bit of C code from an ancient VAX to an HPUX machine. The code was apparently written by a learner using the successive approximation method. It worked on the VAX. I just rewrote it, no big deal, and then spent some happy time working out just why it worked on the VAX in the first place. To do with the way the stack was built. Pure chance.
With rust, those things don't happen so I can concentrate on the metal.
This is the way
Awesome videos. Great inspiration to learn Rust.
I've been trying to figure out how to deal with dependencies of dependencies. Let's say my project depends on crate A which depends on B. A uses some of B's types in its interface without re-exporting them or B. Now what? From what I can gather there is no way to tell cargo that my project also need that specific version of B. Am I missing something?
Unlike in other many other languages crates dependencies are independent.
A -> B -> Cv1
and
A -> Cv2
(where '->' means 'depends on')
Is perfectly legal - just specify the version you want in your cargo.toml
Any more questions, come ask in #newbie-advice on my discord!
This guy is so good even Tom Hanks has decided to learn Rust, and he is an actor.
Upfront: I love rust!
However, I am not sure about the "rapid iteration cycles". While rust code executes very fast, the rust compiler is fairly slow. Meaning you will wait on the compiler a lot. I suppose it heavily depends on the project you are working on, and how many other steps you have to go through, like unit tests and such.
yeah I agree that its not really about rapid iteration cycles, its more about _less_ iteration cycles, because of the confidence in your code that rust gives you through all the robustness oriented design decisions
Here's the thing, after the first slow compile, all subsequent compiles only compile what is changed. When developing, I typically see re-compiles under 100ms.
The trick is to correctly split up your project into sensible modules that the rust compiler can cache the compilation artefacts, as I understand it.
I've had recent success in cutting down the INITIAL compile by using github.com/mozilla/sccache which aggressively caches build artifacts, even when clean builds are required (like in rust-analyzer)
It's a two-line config:
twitter.com/0atman/status/1590118756226805762
@@NoBoilerplate But is that relevant in a CI/CD chain? I'm not sure it can easily take advantage of incremental compilation when there are multiple branches to test in parallel. I think it's fine for the developer on a task and using a good test-driven approach but it will take a toll on the server.
@@phenanrithe Rust CI/CD pipelines (along with many compiled languages) must be built differently to dynamically-typed languages. A package cache is ESSENTIAL to your sanity, otherwise, as you say, constant recompilation will be SO SLOW. sccache set up in CI would be LOVELY (and trivial).
Our infrastructure (gh actions etc) is set up for dynamic languages by default, which is a reasonable default given what we build today. But all that is needed it to set up a few persistent cache folders or docker volumes and you're off!
If you're recompiling the whole dependency tree for any action other than the first one, there's optimisation to be done - it's almost never needed.
@@NoBoilerplate That's interesting, thanks for the feedback! I've had this issue in other build contexts (HDL compilers for digital chips) which are even more demanding and offer the same incremental build capability, but we decided not to hack our pipeline to support that because it was too risky. I didn't know it was a known issue (or flow) in compiled languages but it makes sense for large projects.
We also decided not to use it because sometimes it used to produce faulty results with the tools in the first place, but that's another story. 😅At least I've never had this problem with Rust, thanks to the awesome work they've done with the compiler. I bet our HDL tools were not written in Rust...
As I only started recently the only code I've witten in rust were just a simple cli programs. You've motivated me to learn more about rust!
Great! Check out my other videos for more superpowers!
@@NoBoilerplate After 2 month I'm still happy that I started up with Rust! It's so... you better describe this in you videos than I can describe.
@@rotteegher39 I'm so pleased for you friend :-) Do come chat to the community on my discord server if you ever need advice!
Really appreciate the real world examples. I'd been wondering recently about how Rust is getting on in actual projects. Pretty well, it turns out.
The future's here!
My biggest issue is that it's difficult. People say C is difficult but once you understand the concepts of pointers it's not much more difficult than any other language, rust has a lot of syntax that can be really unorthodox which makes it more difficult to write
Rust is extremely different isn't it! No inheritance, new syntax for lifetime annotations and borrows, and the compiler hates a lot of the standard normal patterns we've been using for decades. I know how you feel.
Back in 2020 I crashed out of learning Rust twice. First time due to multiple string types (Haskell's biggest mistake made again, I thought to myself) and second due to lifetime syntax. At the time I had a great mentor who picked me up and helped me back on the path. Most people don't have this. This is why I made my Rust series.
Yes Rust is very different from what you're used to. But that's the point. Two features you can't get in C that I think you'll like are (proper!) Macros and the Unsafe system. Macros are nothing like templates or cmptime (they're more like lisp macros), and the unsafe system is a genius way to ring-fence pointer arithmetic, to allow us to build safe abstractions around unsafe pointer code. I did a video on both of them here, and I'd love your opinion on it: th-cam.com/video/PuMXWc0xrK0/w-d-xo.html
Cheers!
@@NoBoilerplate yes, like I said very unorthodox. It could age better if it's features become more standardized bur as it is, it's like learning programming from the beginning again. I also really like the enums, with arguements.
@@Zen-rw2fz learning programming from the beginning again is a very good way of putting it!
I love rust because now people will leave Haskell alone. Haskell is a research language and should remain as such, a place where all new ideas can be explore without fear of losing backwards compatibility, because this is a problem we still haven't fixed how to combine innovation with legacy. And Rust is the language that gets to be a curated selection of the ideas explored in Haskell so people in the industry can get that innovation without being the party poppers for innovation.
Never have I ever been filled with pure joy while watching a programming language video. With such motivation to learn something new, your videos are truly amazing. You've been my inspiration, these last few weeks, to, whenever I have the time, learn as much Rust as I can. Thank you!
I'm delighted! I trust you've seen my getting started video? th-cam.com/video/2hXNd6x9sZs/w-d-xo.html
@@NoBoilerplate I only saw it now, as I came across your channel recently. I already had started a course (google's comprehensive rust), but as soon as I finish it I will follow the steps there. Thanks for the amazing videos! :)
@@MrThirstyx my pleasure!
Just started learning rust to replace c++, to avoid writing c++ for multiple platforms, and your channel has been the biggest inspiration to get me through the growing pains of learning to work with the borrow checker
Honestly, if you have to fight the borrow checker, your C++ is very likely to have undefined behavior. Rust's rules are not arbitrary and its compiler is that "brutally honest" but friendly dude that says that you're wrong but helps you solve the problems. I wish you luck in your endeavor!
I dont interpret Rin's problem as fighting the borrow checker - just the same initial difficulties we all have when staring rust - unfamiliarity. Sounds like they are getting on top of it though!
@@NoBoilerplate yep, this exactly
Just learning to work with the borrow checker, learning about how long what lives, etc
There's always some growing pains, but I'm well on my way of replacing c++ with rust in our project!
@@RinLovesYou That's it!
The fact it took me 8 years to find Rust is mind blowing to me. Similarly the issues you expressed I inherently felt about most modern languages. Rust is so nice I'm excited to know of this language and build some predictable code!
I only started in 2020, I'm kicking myself too! You're gonna have a great time, make sure you've watched the rest of my Rust series, I have a playlist of them if you need it!
And do come say hi on Discord if you get stuck :-)
@@NoBoilerplate Thank you for responding, I will join the discord and work my way through videos, they are really valuable so far so thank you for taking the time to create them for us :)
@@danraine9009 my pleasure 🙂
I think Linus' comment on Rust *not* being perfect is very enlightning, especially the idea that you can "Panic and stop" if something goes wrong (e.g. a variable couldn't be allocated due to a lack of memory) isn't acceptable for the kernel.
Not perfect, but an improvement enough on C that it's worth the compromise - a great decision, that's what life's all about!
I find it rather ironic how many people push forward the fact that "linus accepted rust into the kernel" but ignore his comments about it being "safe" is not true.
Nice video! Ok now I want "boring" transition from C# and Blazor to Rust. What libraries and frameworks should I look at? What you guys recommend?
I have a video on that! th-cam.com/video/pocWrUj68tU/w-d-xo.html
The mention of "perfect code" always puts me off. In university we had a secure programming module, we read case studies on programming errors that cost lives, and a key theme among them all wasn't choice of language or style, it was the assumptions the engineers made about the quality of their code.
I recommend reading the report. It's called "Case Studies of Most Common and Severe Types of Software System Failure", from the International Journal of Advanced Research in Computer Science and Software Engineering.
The perfect code thing was also seen a lot years back in the Haskell sphere, which lead to Haskell code being of significantly less quality than was expected, largely because of the assumptions programmers held about the language.
I sympathise with this thinking, I also studied formal system at university, and have tried for over a decade to find a programming language and ecosystem to let me write GOOD ENOUGH code that had loads of safeguards built-in to the language.
I also thought it was Haskell, but what turned me off wasn't the community attitude, but I do know what you're talking about there, but Haskell's popularity, or lack, thereof.
I need a language that has safety built-in, in a comprehensible way that doesn't scare off normal developers.
My first video in this series is called Your Code Can Be Perfect (th-cam.com/video/Q3AhzHq8ogs/w-d-xo.html) and I want to be clear: I don't think Rust is perfect, but I think it's the best language to write perfect code USING, because of the tools it gives you.
Yo! Wow! I just had to comment. You breathe life into me when you said, “I am tired of writing bullshit that I cannot guarantee.” I felt your pain. It's so refreshing to see a community like this exists! I am now a follower. 🤣😂😂
😂 Still watching and I am hooked. Your delivery is perfect! Your tone is soothing, too.
This is the video I just needed to clear my hesitation on Go and Rust. This is confusion was not about garbage collection, but support and adoption for developers. As I can clearly see from your video, the evidence you present is beyond unreasonable doubt. Thanks!!!
Upon hearing Rust Crates, you reminded me of V-lang. Would you consider making a video analysing V-lang? I would like to see your perspective. I like how you think and order things. It's a humble request. 😊
I can't believe I am considering joining Discord because of you. 😂I just finished watching this video.
Ha! I'd be delighted if you were to say hi on Discord :-)
I'll check out V-lang, I love learning new languages, but it's rare that I'd make a video on them, popularity is a feature you see.
Thank you so much for your kind words, I hope you'll like my other Rust videos, do check out my channel for them.
If you would like to hear me ACTUALLY try to be soothing - I'd love to know what you think of my hopepunk scifi podcast, Lost Terminal, here's the first episode: th-cam.com/video/p3bDE9kszMc/w-d-xo.html
Thank you!
Great as always and a lot of useful statements, will use this and some of your other Rust videos to demo Rust to my colleagues some time, maybe we'll start working with it at some point in our Team! :)
Fantastic! Do come say hi on Discord if you need to get some #newbie-advice!
@@NoBoilerplate I’m already a (somewhat silent) member! Joined for the good Obsidian channel :D
@@maxpursian Fantastic! Tag me and say hi!
Rust even let’s you have low-cost dynamic typing using traits and boxes, and automates significant amounts of work with the macro system. I have it set up in a personal project to automatically generate a TypeScript API for the frontend by analyzing all of my exported types using macros, which is huge. Whenever I change an API, I just re-run the generator, which enables typescript codegen on all my data types and collects them using linkme before writing a ts file, triggering errors in my frontend anywhere I made a breaking change. I even have an event broker like JS written in rust that avoids copying using Arc and deref proxies that cast the data back into its original type without any safety issues. The fact that I can do that with only a few months of work, completely ironed out and working perfectly, while still maintaining runtime speed of 11x what I need for a real-time application is incredible, and only possible because of Rust
That's fantastic!
As a python programmer language speed hasn't really been something I needed to worry about. I decided to try out Rust in my free time anyway and I couldn't believe how smoothly everything went. It all felt so natural (except the borrowing system, I really don't get that part yet), especially when I tried to do some functional programming. I haven't used it since and I probably don't have much reason to use it anytime soon but I absolutely agree with those people saying it's their favourite language and I still keep it in high regard to this day.
Great that you tried it out, that's how I dipped my toe in, while still doing python day-to-day back in 2020.
Why not combine forces! github.com/PyO3/pyo3
It's always a good day when No Boilerplate uploads ♥♥
Thank you! I feel the same!
Alright, I'm convinced, it might be worth picking up rust after years of standing by cpp. A few questions to get a handle on how many of my personal projects I might want to consider writing in rust, since you seem to focus mainly on web dev, which is decidedly not what I do. If none of these exist for rust, that's fine; it just means I'll have to figure out other projects to work with in the language:
Where should I start looking for libraries to handle hpc - can you write sycl code in rust? I'd prefer to avoid opencl due to poor vendor support. Cuda and hip bindings would be less desirable due to the extra work involved in supporting both, but they'd be useful as well. Please tell me there's more than just an under development spirv wrapper and packages to handle regular shader pipelines; I'm looking to do compute on the gpu, not just shaders.
How well does it handle avx and simd? Can the compiler auto vectorize, or are you able to write it by hand?
Are the vulkan bindings good? Are there any that actually have first party support?
As you quite rightly say, I'm a web developer, not a game dev. BUT Loads of the great people on my discord ARE. Come ask that EXACT question (copy and paste it, even) in #programming and you'll get a great explanation :-)
I've started to learn Rust and noticed that it has a direct access to the array element, which may produce panic errors. Seems like rust is not so safe as was promised
I too was disappointed about this at first. It's the same with airthmatic - rust does not default to checked math - so divide by zero errors panic at runtime.
However, I've started to understand Rust's comprimises - the language MUST have both fast AND safe methods, such as the checked_math module in the standard library, which has safe methods that return `Result`s.
Vecs for example have .get doc.rust-lang.org/std/vec/struct.Vec.html#method.get
You feel like a professional salesman that I constantly revisit to hear more from. On top of this the product you sell is free.
Never have I ever been so excited for something I know so little about.
I just must find time! ⏰😳
You could try reading The Book cover to cover, without doing any programming at all, just let the words into your brain through osmosis - skip over sections you don't understand, and in doing so read most of the book. Then when you're done, it's time to go back and give it a go. This is what I did!
doc.rust-lang.org/stable/book/
@@NoBoilerplate is it propaganda if it's the truth?
I have been using Clojure for 3 years and love it but I am very curious about Rust.
There are not much job opening about Clojure and Rust seems to have, as you mentioned, good popularity.
Clojure just made me happy to code like never before but popularity might be the problem indeed, so learning Rust might be a good fallback in case.
Cheers
Try them all! Obviously I prefer Rust, but Go is a fine language.
I wrote Clojure at a startup bank for 2 years in the mid 2010s.
In Rust, the conversation I have with the compiler feels just like the conversation I used to have with the repl in Clojure. I made a little edit, send it along to the kernel/compiler, and get instant feedback, and move forward.
I think Rust is Lisp in C's clothing with Haskell's types, it's really incredible! Watch the intro carefully here: th-cam.com/video/MWRPYBoCEaY/w-d-xo.html
Really nice video, tho I would say Rust is maybe not yet ready for the cloud. For example, AWS's Rust SDK exists, but is a dev preview and it is not recommended to use in production. Should be ready soon tho.
Coward eh? /j
Of course, I'm joking, here's the real deal: Rust packages' 0.X releases are SO stable compared to other languages, in my experience. That the compiler guarantees SO MUCH makes me very caviller about getting going with pre-1.0 software.
I certainly am impressed with rust after watching your videos. Currently i'm torn between focusing on rust and nim. I believe you dabbled in nim language before, could you share your opinion / what made you settle on rust? Rust seems for me to be more complicated, polished and suitable for big, complex projects. In nim beauty lies in the simplicity and ergonomics of language. Is the rust compiler's safety a killer enough feature for you, or was there something else?
Simplicity is a double-edged sword. No harming in learning how to program on simple languages, but simple syntax harms you.
I explain my thinking on the matter in this video th-cam.com/video/4dvf6kM70qM/w-d-xo.html.
Thank you!
You speak of superior development ergonomics, and for the most part I agree with what is said, though the speed of Rust's compiler itself is concerningly slow. The Linux kernel already takes a very long time to compile. What if it was all Rust? Do you think the compile time issue will be resolved in the future?
There's two sides to this, one side is that people a misremembering that Rust compile times USED to be extremely slow, and articles from before 2020 might confuse you with this conclusion. The Rust compiler has had enormous optimisations since then, and is now much much faster.
The Second side is that Rust compile times are indeed slower than go or C++ because the compiler does so much more for us. But it is possible to get around this problem with careful module design. The compiler is very smart about caching, and while an initial compile might take the same time, it is possible to speed up recompilation with good techniques.
I highly recommend reading everything that Amos has ever written, starting with fasterthanli.me/articles/when-rustc-explodes
0:18 Unless I'm missing something, I'm pretty sure Rust does not have 1st class support on GCP. I have been working with it for a hobby/demo app and there is no official SDK or client libraries. It isn't supported in Cloud Functions like it is in AWS Lambda.
The best thing I can find is auto generating gRPC stuff with Tonic
Ah interesting. I can imagine google might be uninterested in making a SDK for a competitor to Go!
However, the Rust community seems to have filled in the gaps here crates.io/search?q=gcp
I imagine you can just deploy a binary to GCP quite easily, just as with Go.
after using Rust for a while, i’m very impressed by a lot of its features. even just the specificity and clarity of the number types compared to the other languages i’ve used (Javascript, Python, and C a little) is really nice. another small detail i like is that a lot of math things like min and max are methods, which was weird at first but then i realized that it results in a method chaining way of doing multiple of those operations which is far more readable than nested function calls
I adore languages that make heavy use of the chain / fluent interface pattern like this. Lovely!
Also, there are macros that let you write chains of function calls even if they're not methods!
Do you know any good desktop GUI framework? Can't seem to find guides/videos about it
that depends a lot on what you're making:
- egui is nice if your UI doesn't need to look like a website
- iced or druid are options i would look at
- tauri is the electron of Rust, allowing you to write a frontend in html/css/js and a backend in Rust
Great answer :-)
I now read Rust documentation in your voice, and it is oh, so soothing.
me too!
From the outside, I can see Rust has so many advantages, I will pick it up eventually.
One thing I would clearly miss (and I miss in C/C++ as well) is the absence of a REPL. I found a REPL so nice to have (at least in Haskell and Python) that's it's become a favorite tool for me.
Do you miss it too? Any idea if a REPL will ever be part of Rust?
I have excellent news for you, I really dig irust crates.io/crates/irust
and for an even better experience, you can use rust inside a jupyter session with crates.io/crates/evcxr_jupyter
It will never be the same experience as a language with a real long-running REPL, but you might find that, like me, you start learning rust with a repl, and then find that the compiler is so powerful, you don't need it!
@@NoBoilerplate Nice! :D Thanks for the pointers!
For backend
I would still prefer Go
Though, I would like to try Tokyo
Go is a very good language! But it has its limits - check out my previous rust video for a case study where Discord had to switch a service from go to rust, to avoid garbage collection pauses
@@NoBoilerplate yah those garbage collection spike is an thing indeed
Not that I'm complaining (exactly), but your videos feel like they're trying to "sell" Rust to the viewer.
Okay, I'm sold. But now I need to know how to _do_ things, and all my experience is with C, a bit of Go, assembly code, and talking to hardware. I think in machine terms. How do you take a mind that thinks in terms of for-loops and pointers to structs describing HW registers and retrain it to think in terms of iterators, closures, and very strict typing? How do you take a blob of bytes received from a serial link whose layout you know and interpret it without resorting to 'unsafe', or to picking it apart byte by byte?
I'd like to see more of the comparisons you did in some previous videos -- "Here's how you've probably done this in JS, and here's how you do it in Rust. And the Rust version won't crash or throw exceptions..."
Was looking for exactly this comment - I agree completely.
The goal of the channel was, and probably still is, to sell rust to his co-workers.
Oh that was easy. I'm now on a mission to sell Rust to the world!
let me be very clear: **My videos are mostly hype by design.**
Most comments on my videos are not by people like you. **They are by total Rust newbies.** Some are even new to programming and are so excited by what they see! If you don't understand Rust, and someone explains it clearly, as I try to, it seems like magic. Rust is the #19th most popular language (redmonk.com/sogrady/2022/03/28/language-rankings-1-22/), but the scale is not linear. There is a lot of work to do if we are to not suffer the same fate as Haskell.
**I want Rust to achieve escape velocity.**
I see my job not as a details person, I am way under-qualified for that, I point people to fasterthanli.me for details. My focus is funnelling new people to Rust, getting them so excited they can't help but push through the learning curve, and then from there language sells itself.
Back in 2020 I crashed out of learning Rust twice. First time due to multiple string types (haskell's biggest mistake made again, I thought to myself) and second due to lifetimes. At the time I had a great mentor (Shout-out to Alex!) who picked me up and helped me back on the path. Most people don't have this. They need the excitement of my hype videos to break through.
I will eventually run out of hype topics and move on to slightly more detail. But first, there's a few million developers I want to send to rustup.rs :-)
What are some good projects to do in rust coming from a python background?
Both are big topics, are you from a python webdev background like me? If so, rocket.rs is just like flask!
Rust is great, but it still has to stabilize more on the framework side, especially those targeting the browser. The backend is already well covered. On the frontend the future is promising, but currently I wouldn't write a complex webapp in Rust, the current frameworks are not on the same maturity level as React or Vue. Of course, if you write something with WebGL or Canvas ignoring the DOM, it might already be a perfect choice. But it's not just the problem of tooling, some standardization on the browser level needs to happen so Webassembly can access the DOM without going through JavaScript. But we will get there for sure.
curious as to why you picked rocket over axum/actix
Much better Dev experience with rocket imo
@@theLowestPointInMyLife I'd disagree, rocket seems to be mostly unmaintained now. Axum is a much better idea for newer projects.
@@jepcdd I didn't know that about rocket, looked a cool project too, I'm not really keen on any of the rust servers tbh
yeah, axum and warp are better, even better than actix; their memory usage is incredible low but faster.
Friendliest experience - best for a general audience. I agree with your later response - I personally use poem-openapi for my projects. almost as fast as axium, great restfull framework.
This love letter to rust gave me chills... I'm a react dev and love typescript. This is the first time since switching from linux to mac to that I have ever considered a career change.
You know what you have to do now, right? th-cam.com/video/2hXNd6x9sZs/w-d-xo.html
:-)
You said in this video that rust has fitst class support for all cloud platforms. Yet the library for Azure isn't supported by the core team and isn't in version 1.0 yet. Would you still consider this first class support?
You're quite right, I misunderstood the unofficial nature of the azure sdk.
I assumed that because it's hosted in the official Azure github org, it was official (github.com/Azure/azure-sdk-for-rust) but I see in their readme that it isn't, somehow!
Given the APPETITE microsoft has for Rust (have you SEEN recent developments? www.theregister.com/2023/04/27/microsoft_windows_rust/) I would imagine an official Azure sdk is already being built!
Alright, you got me! What does the job landscape look like for Rust these days. Thanks for the great video.
My pleasure! Thank you for commenting. The job market's small, of course, but the big players are all advertising rust positions:
careers.microsoft.com/us/en/search-results?keywords=rust
www.amazon.jobs/en/search?base_query=rust&loc_query=&latitude=&longitude=&loc_group_id=&invalid_location=false&country=&city=®ion=&county=
And the trick is you can very easily make the pitch to write small amount of YOUR COMPANY's app in Rust - just a single lambda, or an event processor, something small. That's how you get'em ;-)
@@NoBoilerplate wow, thanks for the thoughtful and thorough response!!!
I do a lot of Java programming, I have an OCA even. I have been able to use Rust recently for some projects. I am upset with Java. Rust is just as difficult as Java I feel, but Java is a contrived difficulty. Abstractions for the sake of abstractions. I could tell you all about making an abstract class that implements a marker interface. I can override a protected method in a child class allowing runtime polymorphism. And it would still lack null safety, there would be no easy way for me to see if a parameter had it's value changed in the method, if the object returned was new object or something already created. I could have built safer, cleaner, faster just as scalable code in Rust.
Great explanation, thank you
The issue I have with benchmarks is that they are so surface level. As a web developer I’d want to see someone comprehensively test something like realworld backend applications in a variety of different languages and frameworks. The realworld application as deals with handling http requests, serialization, database operations, async operations, authentication and more. I’ll add the web frameworks benchmarks are fun but they basically the equivalent of hello world just with http routing.
Yeah, that's a very satisfactory benchmark idea. I like web-frameworks-benchmark.netlify.app/result?asc=0&l=rust,python,ruby,javascript
I listened to this video I like your no bs way of talking, refreshing compared to job life.
You're gonna love a video I'm drafting: A ruthless tear-down of Agile, in the way it's used in large companies
@@NoBoilerplate yeah agile, but the name of the game is to find who to blame when requirements need to change. It's not agile, it's often waterfall in fact.
I live the idea and concepts of rust. But I have some problems on how they decided to implement the core language as terse, keywords like fn and impl really don't make me like it. And also a lot of functions are shortened in rust's std library.
It's like the people behind it fixed every problem of c, but they decided to keep the poor naming conventions of c.
I see what you mean, coming from high-level languages too, it took me a while to get used to this punctuation and high-line-noise.
But rest assured it is worth it! We can't get everything we want, but Rust's got a good compromise :-)
Try a few more of my Rust videos, or if reading is better for you, I love everything that Amos writes here, especially:
fasterthanli.me/articles/a-half-hour-to-learn-rust
The standard library is a bit of an outlier in this regard. It's the only place where this shortening is commonplace, and even then, it only occurs for items that are so ubiquitous you'll have them memorized before you finish your first project. For actual libraries full names are the norm.
The short names for common std items and lang items do actually make sense. They do reduce character noise. Arc is much more readable than AtomicallyReferenceCountedSmartPointer
While i enjoy your videos as always, you keep saying that rust has a first class support in aws and is production ready, however when i looked it up it seems the aws sdk for rust is only in beta phases and is not recommended for production use.
What am i missing?
You're right, the aws crate is both 'in beta' and production ready. You know, like half the plugins we use in production software!
Rust packages 0.X releases are SO stable compared to other languages, in my experience. That the compiler guarantees SO MUCH makes me very caviller about getting going with pre-1.0 software.
Rust crate developers are super cautious about releasing 1.0, because that comes with stabilizing the API and disallowing any breaking changes (without major version change, ie. 2.0). What you will find is that many crates are not "stable" (as in 1.0), but they are "mature" (0.x, production ready, with breaking changes being minimized).
How have you got me SO hyped about a language I’ve never used - even setting all your knowledge aside, cripes are you a good writer.
Thank you! I focus on a good script and good audio so the video is accessible as possible!
I had a 2-year head start on script writing: th-cam.com/video/p3bDE9kszMc/w-d-xo.html
Wow, that is telling it straight. Performance is not even the game changer for me. The correctness, robustness, predictably, reliability and security of my product is. That is to say "quality". Programmers should take pride in their work, rather than quickly shipping out dross for a quick buck. Our civilisation depends on software, software that works, we should not let civilisation down.
Couldn't agree more here - critical infrastructure should be built with Rust
@@NoBoilerplate Yes, but what is "critical infrastructure"? I want everything to work and work reliably. From the calculator in my phone, to my banking web page and everything behind them. Anything that does not deliver or causes errors can be critical. It's not just aircraft auto-pilots and nuke plant controls. Failures in security can cause grief on a huge scale, above and beyond whatever stupid program they are in. In Rust we trust :)
GC like problem still need some test and debug. And Java depending on the load might be in 30% of C performance. Where is that 4x coming from?
It's approximate. As I said in the video, it could be 2x - 6x. I'm deliberately making the categories big so we don't talk about the minutiae of benchmarking.
5:29 I don't like the graphs color choice. The colors are not too different, two shades of blue, one with a bit of red mixed in. Especially when not watching it in fullscreen or on a small screen. Probably mostly because of my red/green weakness.
Bad isn't it? I'm sorry I don't have access to the raw data to produce a better graph - this is what discord gave us!
Very enlightening video! But instead of just talking about the philosophy, maybe make a video or two about rust-unique features (&str vs String, etc)?
There's loads of really great youtubers doing these deep-dives at the moment (try Code To The Moon and The Primeagen)
I may yet do such a deep dive, but I see the gap in the market at the moment is getting people EXCITED about Rust enough to try it. From there the language sells itself.
Have you seen my whole Rust series? th-cam.com/video/Q3AhzHq8ogs/w-d-xo.html
I’m venturing into Rust and loving it. Just wish I started sooner.
Me too! I hope you have a great time, do check out my other videos and do read The Book doc.rust-lang.org/stable/book/
Alright, let's go! You have convinced me, my man. I am starting to learn Rust.
If Rust is so great, how come there isn't a GUI library for it? When D was only a couple years old, someone ported Eclipse's SWT to it, while the standard library was realistically only about 10% complete and it was a relatively neat and fully functioning port. It's kind of one of the first things anyone spins up if you have any hope targeting desktop, even just duct taping Qt and GTK in there. I can see a bunch of projects started and abandoned or left very incomplete and talk of how this or that approach proved unsatisfactory due to lack of OOP. One of the bigger Rust projects uses a Vue JS frontend for GUI. You say you don't need two languages with Rust, well uh there's a counterexample. I'm probably also going to duct tape some dynamic language and an associated GUI library to the Rust core for my project, plus have several of the GUI bits implemented in C++, which is specifically the language I was hoping not to have to come back to.
I have great news for you, there are both QT and GTK bindings:
- www.gtk.org/docs/language-bindings/rust/
- wiki.qt.io/Language_Bindings#Qt_for_Rust_.28Rust-Qt.29
gtk-rs.org looks especially mature, which I am delighted to see!
I can highly recommend www.egui.rs as a very full-featured Rust gui library that works natively or in-browser using wasm. If I were to start a GUI app today, I'd use this, specifically with the crates.io/crates/eframe framework. Good luck!
@@NoBoilerplate Hardly news, i saw most of these. Nobody uses the Qt bindings so who knows what the quality of them is.
GTK is seeing a good bit of use in Rust, but then, that's... GTK. It has no screen reader support on Windows or Mac so you can barely even count it as a fully featured toolkit, like sure they have all the really difficult stuff worked out, but 98% of the users aren't on Linux so the feature basically isn't accessible to them. The apps using GTK are more in the... not quite toy but not super complex category, but then that's GTK so it should be fairly difficult to mess up and not too difficult to fix the binding, so i wouldn't have qualms using the binding per se.
I'm looking to rewrite an ancient inherited legacy project in Rust which has like 400 dialogues and where lack of accessibility is one of major existing criticisms - it's using a custom retained mode OpenGL based toolkit. Another is lack of multimonitor support via breaking out things in the app into separate windows. I need to retain a good bit of existing feel if not quite the look, avoid too drastic functional changes. Another problem is that the GUI isn't asynchronous at all, and if the rendering of the 3D scene stalls, and it does and it probably will even after the rewrite, so does the UI, so that's something i'm looking to avoid. It also turns out that the layouts of the dialogs are a fairly good match for Qt in particular, i could even automate most of the conversion. There's also some UX... near atrocities that i'm sure people want kept, such as a treebox which reaches tens thousands of entries, so there are performance requirements at play, but only a very very small selection of UI pieces are anywhere near performance sensitive.
And the reason that i'm looking to rewrite it is that the application has become slow and fragile, and the more hands touched it, the more fragile it got over the course of over 2 decades. It's over a megaloc of C++, but i feel it could easily be 1/8th of that if it wasn't just layers of bad design. I've also found that rend3 is an exceptionally good fit for my requirements.
I've been thinking of also Qt's QML/Quick so i can move a lot of UI code to JS and not have to recompile so much and enable more third party extensibility, but i'm not fully convinced yet in multiple regards. Among these Qt company doesn't seem to take QML accessibility seriously, there is screen reader support but the focus control isn't nearly robust enough to make it work properly, and i don't need a lot of its selling points, i don't need the UI to be fluidly animated etc. I'm also not at all married to JS as a scripting language i'd like to embed, indeed it's kind of a third rate choice, but also i don't have a really strong opinion on what it should be.
Egui is bar none the MOST impressive immediate mode toolkit i've ever seen and i'm certainly going to do some quick and dirty prototypes with that, it somehow slipped me by this far. I also love that accessibility is at least somewhat implemented, like it can screenread, but there isn't full keyboard control for floaty windows and their size, which, OK, i can get that fixed up. Also a lot of stuff in the app that i'm to rewrite seems like a poor fit to an immediate-mode toolkit.
I don't personally have a first- or even second-hand need for accessibility features, but talking to users, one finds that there's thousands of people who need these sorts of features and are increasingly struggling with modern software. Back in the day, even when i got started 25 years ago in Delphi, accessibility support was basically a given, basically everything was screen readable and keyboard-navigable. Today even such a basic application as Discord, while it can be screen-read (somewhat), it just doesn't have basically any keyboard control at all. We have suffered a massive regression especially since touch-based and web UIs started leaking onto the desktop.
At this point I’ve seen enough No Boilerplate videos that I’ve stopped asking “Why rust?” and have switched instead to “How rust?”
me irl
My work here is done.
First step is the book! doc.rust-lang.org/stable/book/
@@NoBoilerplate I'll have to buckle down and follow the book, I've tried before but I got lazy and skipped it. This ends (begins) now!
Tried the link to the Discord server. GitHub didn't find the file.
apologies, fixed the link now!
Although I'm still in the phase of fighting the compiler, I love rust. I think my favorite things are Options and Results. Idk, but I find the wording of "Option" sooo cute :D. It feels like marrying Some(data type).
Every time you use unwrap_or(), you think: "Yeah, another error handled".
Whetever the use case is, Rust seems to be a great... "Option"! Sorry xD
Isn't it great!
The most interesting thing about this video is that it didn't focus on how 'safe' rust is, and how 'dangerous' C is, and instead listed some real life practical benefits.
This is exactly it. As I said in RUST-1 (th-cam.com/video/Q3AhzHq8ogs/w-d-xo.html) I don't care about safety - I've never had to, it's not a selling point for anyone coming from high-level languages!
Now, macros and compiler-provable error-free code? Count me in!
Those seem to be good arguments. I am not convinced, yet. I leaned to like scala after having to work it in university. I feel like there are some intersections. What do you think?
What about segmentation faults?
Due to the tight safety features in the core language, segfaults are reserved for hardware faults, OOM errors, etc, and Rust accepts these as fatal, by default (as in server and application development, they are).
For low-level or bare-metal applications, it is possible to override this behaviour with the `panic_handler` hook, though that is outside my area of expertise. Consult the rustonomicon!
doc.rust-lang.org/nomicon/panic-handler.html
We're at the point where, if I had to write a native launcher, I would do it in Rust.
If I had to write native glue code to something native, I would use FFI from whatever language the main code is in, because that is more maintainable than dragging along a hand-written native shim, even if that shim were written in Rust.
But actually replacing the Java application with Rust? Not likely. But if we wanted to, here are the main gates in the way:
- Rust's UI libraries are still very rudimentary. Even compared to Elixir, and Elixir is already something we want to use in production, but can't, because _its_ UI library isn't ready.
- Java has a ton of libraries and sometimes it feels like we're using almost all of them
- The quantity of the code that someone would have to migrate somehow
I see what you're saying, but take a step back:
Coders in the top 10 languages all say "You can't replace [my language] with Rust, there's too many essential libraries that I use all the time from [my language's community]".
I've had people say something like what you said in a dozen languages, including languages (like elixir) that are less popular than Rust and have fewer packages.
(Rust: 110,655 packages Elixir: 14,255 packages)
Perhaps you're not as familiar with the Rust ecosystem as you are with Java, or perhaps even Elixir?
Regarding your specific use case, HTML is the standard interface, and with a project like tauri.app making it first-class on desktop and mobile, I don't see the problem.
If your users want NATIVE native, then www.egui.rs is incredible.
@@NoBoilerplate I don't want to use web technologies to make a desktop application, so Tauri is already not an option.
(Their web site is also terrible. I had to visit several pages even to figure out that it was just embedding a web browser. Initially I was reading "you can use whatever frontend framework you want", and thinking, "no, I'm looking for a frontend framework, you absolute buffoons.")
Egui I have discovered before. I'm not so fond of immediate mode UI because when someone comes by to automate testing for it, they usually complain that there is no way to walk the component hierarchy to find a button to click on. I've also played with their example for long enough to realise that foreign languages don't work in their text renderer and that their emoji rendering is terrible.
I'm also aware of Iced, but I haven't looked too closely at that one yet, so I'm not sure. I have read its examples - it is *WAY* more clunky than Jetpack Compose. I'm sure this is because these frameworks are "first attempt" frameworks - they don't have any other Rust frameworks to compete against, so they think they can get away with a somewhat ugly API. But then I come in, comparing with Jetpack Compose, and they look bad.
So to answer your question, no, I'm not as familiar with Rust.
→ The reason I'm not as familiar with Rust is, I haven't used it for 1,000 hours at work.
→ The reason I haven't used it for 1,000 hours at work is, we haven't found a way to adopt it yet.
→ And the reason why we haven't found a way to adopt it yet is that we are still yet to find a good UI framework.
We're also not confident enough to create that UI framework ourselves - so "just make it yourself" isn't really an option either. Just in case you try to argue that angle.
I do acknowledge that 100% of today's code could be rewritten in Rust. It assumes that you're also happy to reimplement all the missing frameworks before you start on the actual code - but the claim is true, with this caveat.
You're right, it is ready for usage in my company.
How do I know?
I'm already using it, and it's fantastic!
TEACH US YOUR SECRETS :D
Hey! Thanks for the in-detail videos.
I have two questions:
- Which microphone do you have? It’s so good!
- I’m graduating soon, and since I work in 3d computer vision & robotics, I need to spend time gaining C++ expertise, but I have been seeing your videos, and I feel Rust is the future. I don’t want to miss out on the Rust bandwagon. How should I gain expertise in C++ and rust together?
1. www.0atman.com/articles/21/make-fiction-podcast
2. Use C++ to make money, and write Rust at home, Robotics isn't quite there for Rust yet, but it will be!
Come and chat to me and the community about both these things on my discord! :-)
This video finally convinced me to start studying rust. Thanks!!
Fantastic! Do watch the rest of my series for inspiration!
@@NoBoilerplate Yeah! I'm following your videos :)
@@CandidoSalesGomes Super!
- The Rust Book
- Rustlings
- fasterthanli.me
Good luck!
minor errata, Discord uses Elixir instead of Erlang as a primary language.
Primary language varies by the service. Their REST api is primarily python. The gateway uses elixir but the gateway is just a very small part of the puzzle :)
@@billasweather7833 the voice/chat app is they primary service/app, and this is written in Elixir, so I think we can say that Elixir is they primary language
For me, primary language is not about the total lines written in such language, instead I like to think how much those line of code are responsible for the business they are running. And I'm pretty sure that the python part of they stack could be much more easily replaced by rust or any other language than the elixir part, just because os all the good stuff around the elixir and erlang for websocket scalability
Sure. But there are far far far more Microservices than you’re acknowledging and each managed by their own team and lang.
Python is not being replaced due to developer simplicity.
My main issue with Rust is their seemingly immense support from community and so many individuals it’s mind boggling
Yet they will not support certain older architectures.
It boggles my mind
Small price to pay to make the entire linux community happy with the new kernel changes, so why not?
Could you go into detail? There's only so many architectures llvm supports, and then the rust team need to choose a subset of THAT, depending on their available time?
@@NoBoilerplate
My issues stem from the reliance on llvm only. Which I get, llvm is much simpler to work with than the alternatives, but it’s worrying to put all your eggs in one basket.
My other worry is that now, going forward, LLVM being required now by much more code puts the responsibility of keeping older and even newer architectures that will come out solely on LLVM to support. Meaning that future revisions of gentoo and the like won’t support even something simple like ia64, hpaa, s390, among others.
So when I see the massive support for Rust, why haven’t I seen a lot of support for bringing in and expanding llvm support before trying to bring it into the linux kernel? Since rust leans so heavily on llvm, this would be an awesome opportunity to see more arch support for llvm which would benefit many and reduce friction.
You said it yourself, Rust is a mature language that has been around for well over a decade, so then I ask, why isn’t it seeing the arch support that it should.. if the aim is to bring in and replace C components then it should be better in every way or at least meet the standard. Less than optimal arch support will limit reusability and as a result, keep older but critical systems from receiving the proper support, opening up vulnerabilities for businesses and infrastructure.
@@sleaf6 I'm unfamiliar with the low-level discussion, could you give examples of architectures that LLVM doesn't support?
It's possible that the LLVM's team are RIGHT to not support every architecture, reading this blog.yossarian.net/2021/02/28/Weird-architectures-werent-supported-to-begin-with
Can you talk about rust for scientific computing. I have been learning rust recently, and i feel like this is an area that is lacking. Thanks
That's because it kindof is lacking.
In scientific computing, a long-running fat runtime isn't a liability, it's an asset. Loading large datasets into memory and then transforming them is a natural thing for a runtime to do. With Rust it's less natural.
Try this video by friend of the channel, CTTM: th-cam.com/video/mlcSpxicx-4/w-d-xo.html
If someone were to ask me what language to learn for data science (if not python) I'd say try Julia, it's really exciting!
Thoughts about next.js 13 and turbopack?
I'm sure if you ask in #programming on my discord, you'd get a lively conversation!
I am hoping to create VST plugins and various other DSP software, is Rust appropriate for this?
Friend, I have great news. I recently tried out crates.io/crates/vst
and the demo vst compiled and loaded into my daw (reaper) perfectly!
I'd love to know how you go with this - I want to build my own VSTs too. Join my discord and tell me please! noboilerplate.org/discord
Yes, it is possible. Unfortunately VST3 API is so C++ infested, that it doesn't really mesh with Rust in ergonomic way. VST2 works quite fine though.
Implementing GUI has also proven to be rather challenging, because you're receiving windows from the DAW instead of the OS/Browser. That not something most GUI crates account for in their low level design.
if I happen to be failing at learning c++, should I learn rust?
Why not! You can always go back to C++ later if you would like :-) doc.rust-lang.org/stable/book/
When I was about 16, I had a mentor at Mozilla who told me I should start using Rust. I thought exactly what you said. This is a fad language that'll pass. Well, I didn't listen to my mentor. Now I work on a lamp stack.
There's still plenty of time to learn :-) fasterthanli.me/articles/a-half-hour-to-learn-rust
things i like most includes new video notification from boilerplate channel
Thank you! I'll try to notify you more frequently :-D
This is why I didn’t start c++ yet. Was waiting for you, 😘
Once Rust gets a good framework for gui design like qt, then I can use it in my workflow.
While you wait, try tauri.app - designing inside html with the html inspector is a really great experience!
I started to learn Rust 2 months ago. Very steep learning curve but it is designed for speed and complex code.
The syntax may be very wordy, however when you start to realize what it is designed to do then you marvel at its ingeniousness.
The tools are still in its infancy similar like C# 1.0 without Resharper and the ability of break points.
But with the energy crisis, every watt counts. More bare metal power with less energy means cheaper.
However not every developer will survive the transition to learning Rust. The ability to adapt and "unlearn" is vital to the transition.
Very good take. My videos are to get as many people through those first few weeks of pain. It's beautiful the other side!
Rust is certainly on my list of languages to learn, though after CSS, JS and Ruby (for Rails).
js/css are essential, we all gotta learn them, good plan! Rails is great to go from 0 to website in no time, though has a lot of non-transferable rails-y skills.
Building a rails app with a js frontend would probably be a great all-in-one project for you there!
Love this channel so much! Wish more tech TH-camrs were this focussed & to-the-point. ❤️
More to come!
Macros are not boring tho, I got to make one that automate a bunch of code writing by just adding something that looks like a json, in the service I wrote at mt company
Rust is the only language that makes me feel like I can accomplish something *solid.* When writing things in C#, there are exceptions that can just _happen_ and cause the program to come crashing down. Handling exceptions is not very easy either. (While Rust does have the panic!() macro which can be put anywhere, every single competent crate or method I've come across always uses Results, which are inherently explicit and much easier to handle.)
I would MUCH prefer:
`function().unwrap_or()`
than:
`try { v = function(); }
catch (Exception e) { v = ; }`
Not to mention the ? operator.
All of Rust's types and mechanisms are not built into the language. Results, Options, Iterators, Deref, Index, Mul, Add, I could go on and on, are simply traits and enums that _you could make yourself._ While special traits like Deref/Index are syntactically special, it's all syntactic sugar which you can take hold of. This means that they can have a ton of helpful functions like map, filter, fold, chunks, enumerate, and unwrap_or. Rust is boring in the sense everything is made the same way and nothing is special, but that makes creating fun stuff much easier.
Can I get any use out of Rust? I'm mostly building simple applications in Python to do things like upload files for me, request data from websites, and process data.
Absolutely. Have a look at doc.rust-lang.org/rust-by-example/index.html and if you're going to do run some system commands, try crates.io/crates/command-macros
And do ask questions in #newbie-advice on my discord!
@@NoBoilerplate thanks man, didn't expect you to actually reply
@@ahuman32478 I answer everyone who asks nice questions! I'm here to educate, principally, so if you need help, do ask 🙂
Rocket isn't stable yet, it's still on v0.5.0
A stable alternative that I think is actually better is Poem. Poem is way more intuitive to use and is actually faster than rocket which has a lot of overhead in its current state
3:53 Is Rocket basically the Laravel/Django of Rust?
No, Rocket is the Flask/Express/Sinatra equivilant, light and thin web-frameworks-benchmark.netlify.app/result?asc=0&f=express,sinatra,flask,rocket
I've never found a language that feels right for writing websites (html + JS is fun but very limited). Maybe I'll try Rust next. But for everything else, you can pry C and CL out of my cold, dead hands.
Have you seen my "Turtles" video? I literally start it by saing that "Rust is as low-level as C, and as high-level as Lisp" This seems relevant to your interests!!!
th-cam.com/video/PuMXWc0xrK0/w-d-xo.html
3:35, man, who here remembers Twitter? those were some crazy times. remember Bean Dad?
Was that like a text message you could send to multiple people? Sounds weird to me /j
Just binged all of your rust videos so far. Man, you really make this so interesting and attractive that I am already reading the book!
Fantastic! If you need any help, hit up #newbie-advice on my discord :-)
What about Rust extensions for Python? Are they easy to develop?
My friend I have EXCELLENT news for you! github.com/PyO3/pyo3
@@NoBoilerplate thank you!
@@user-zt4nx8ii2i My pleasure! If you get stuck, come chat to the community on my Discord, lots of friendly clever folks there - over 2k now (I can't believe it!) links in the description or on the website 🙂
I thought, rust is slower for servers than go, as primeagen showed it in a test. its surprising to see what discord did. interesting
Test results are SUPER dependent on how you test. Go is really great, but a little too timid for my liking - I like writing my whole stack in one language!
idk why but having rust never change is reassuring but also scary at the same time.
c++ cant change due to C never changing and it being a Super set of C
inability to change is scary and a roof but rust is up there currently and i dont think there are many non quality of life changes left to rust.
I didn't say that rust never changes, in fact, I said the opposite,
"Code written today will be guaranteed to compile in all future versions of Rust, while still being able to be used with future code we write in new versions of Rust."
The system that allows Rust to change without breaking backwards compatibility is genius, and it's called the Editions system.
Read about it here: doc.rust-lang.org/edition-guide/editions/index.html
_tehnically_ c++ is not a super set of c, since there are valid c programs which won't be compiled with c++ standards
a usual example is the fact that the c standard explicitly allows implicit casting from and to void pointer types, while in c++ these casts must be explicit
e.g. int *num = malloc(sizeof(int)); is a valid c statement, but invalid c++.
in order to be valid in both, the void pointer must be explicitly casted:
int *num = (int *) malloc(sizeof(int));