Possibly other groups of gods that are considered "older" or "other" and at war with a newer pantheon. Examples are the Asuras of the Vedic religion or the Titans and primordial gods of the Greek religion. As for specific deities, maybe someone very ancient like Inanna/Ishtar/Astarte/Aphrodite, since her origins are complex and possibly a merging of many different sources. It's possible that the Greek goddess Eos - a version of the PIE dawn goddess - was later combined with the Inanna Semitic import cult that had already formed Aphrodite. The latter's influence on the probably originally separate Venus is also interesting.
When we look at a river from a distance, it looks like a snake or serpent winding its way through the countryside. Is that why serpents are often associated with rivers and water?
Great question, and there are a few different hypothesis on this. Certainly one I know by Lahiri in his book Vedic Vrtra talks about the flooding of the rivers, and they destruction they brought) as being a metaphor for a chaotic serpent, and because this flooding was accompanied by storms, it was often considered a conflict between a Storm God and a serpent.
I know the aboriginal Australians have a rainbow serpent myth which is usually associated with land forms and such(my local walgurugaba believe it formed a river and some islands), I suspect that it is partly related to the look of snake tracks in sand (valleys with mountains on the side) and so people have assumed that snakes made the river, I think similar myths could of also been the source for the indo European snake deity beliefs, though having an evil nature due to the flooding effects on the land.
Or there are many water snakes out there, and all snakes are good swimmers, that can be a reason the Snakes/Serpents are associated with river and water, may be!
The snake was a symbol of the messenger of the mother goddess. The snake goes into the earth, it renews itself by shedding it skin. The snake is the ancient symbol for wisdom.
European gods????? 😭😭😭😭 God's of evil? You all are the last race to come around talking about European gods. Europeans don't have ancestors, ya'll have forefathers. This is completely an oxymoron to say call one a European God. You talk about taking and taking and even taking PEOPLE. There is NO SUCH THING as an European God. You can't be half Neanderthal and be a God. How about you all stop trying to take from our African culture which is the culture that BIRTHED all human civilization on earth, THATS GOD'S. Stop this because this is totally an oxymoron
There is one mistake here: Mycenaeans were indoeuropians, Minoans that precede them were not. Mycene culture started when indoeuropean trybes merged with agriculturallists that precedes them.Greeks called them Pelasgians.That happened somewhere from 2500-2000 B.C.
@natasa stefanovic do you have any local legends and myths about where exactly Atlantis existed? A theory I've recently come accross is that it's the Eye of the Sahara, but even this is largely based on Plato's retelling, so might not be accurate
When you said Zeus-PERKUNAS, I almost spit my drink -- "Perkūnas" in Lithuanian mythology is the god of the sky/thunder. Perkūnas is also the word used to for thunder. Never knew that anthropologists refer to Zeus-Perkunas
Ukrainians called this entity "Perun". I believe he was the chief deity in the pantheon of pre-Christian slavic tribes that evolved in to Ukrainians. My grandparents came from Ukraine and I believe my grandmother and (for sure) several of my aunts & uncles were scared stiff of thunderstorms. Which only makes sense, as if you lived on the open steppes, thunderstorms were probably the most scary natural phenomenon you would encounter. Unfortunately for my family, they settled first in Alberta, Canada (flat prairie) and then ended up in southern Ontario - thunderstorm capital of Canada... Not good places for anyone scared of thunder!
For the Ancient Greeks, I find your Demeter argument interesting as I feel the Titan Gaia (Greek Mother Earth) would be a better candidate for a feminine pre-proto Indo-European deity as Zeus overthrew the Titans, which is a great example of the new culture overthrowing the new.
I don’t know enough to really take a position, but I have been struck by the amount of power that was invested in Demeter plus how strong her cult was; I could be persuaded
Some Greek myths were allegories about religious conflicts (the story of Apollo slaying Python is believed to be such a story), but that doesn't mean they all are.
I struggle to find the words to describe it, but there is something endlessly fascinating about the part of anthropology that studies how culture and mythology helped to shape each other. Especially when you get into the pre-history of it all.
I'm only 2 minutes and 40 seconds into this video, but I just had to pause to say, thank GOD (pun intended) this guy isn't yelling for my attention like most other channels! This guy's voice is like a request for me to listen, not a demand. Love that.
I'm new to this channel, and do appreciate the quiet relaxed tone, but the microphone is picking up lots of little sounds from the speaker's mouth, and it's so distracting that I'm giving up about 80% into this.
I'd consider the Jotnar to be a third family of gods in Norse mythology, since not only are they ancestors to some Aesir, even to Odin, but they are shown to be of equal power to the Aesir and the Vanir, and can also marry and have children with Aesir and Vanir.
✝️ LORD JESUS DIED & ROSE AGAIN TO PAY THE DEBT OF UR SIN! ✅By Faith in the sacrifice God has made are we saved from the penalty of sin! 🔵Turn from your sin that leads to death & accept His Gift that leads to eternal Life! 💜We are all sinners that need God. No one can say they are perfect to be able to pay their debt of sin. This is why only God could pay the penalty for us, that is merciful Love!
The Jotun family and the Titan family has a close enough similarity that it's safe to speculate that they may have originated from the same family. If this is the case, then Chaos and Ymir may be the same, Gaia and Jorth are the same, Nott is similar to Nyx, Aegir might be either Oceanus or Poseidon, and there's also the Nine Mothers of Heimdall, possibly being the same as the nine Muses.
I started Uni in Classics and ended up post grad specialising in comparative religion, your work is outstanding and very intertesting indeed. I am so pleased to have found such a well researched and well written channel, thank you for your hard work.
Thank you for watching, I was a late comer to the classics I concentrated on Anglo-Saxon and Old Norse literature, but I am slowly working through them. A fascinating subject. Thank you for your comment to.
My personal favorite pan-Eurasian mythological parallel is that of the goddes of the underworld, and just how many facets she has, yet it all seem to branch off from a single original character. Goddess, living in the land of the dead, usually underground, often depicted with strange, monstrous features that set them apart from the other gods. Ereshkigal, Hel, Allatu, Izanami... The list goes on, and if you dig deep enough, you can even find parallels in Persephone, Hecate, or even Baba Yaga in some stories. I think this character archetype might be one of the most widespread ancient myths, along with the earth mother, flood narrative, and the chaoskampf, and it points at there being some kind of proto-underwold-goddess existing in the distant past, who then got replaced by the gods of death from the later, more patriarchal societies and got relegated to either playing second fiddle to the new male gods, or becoming more of a folklore-character. Things like this is why I find ancient mythology such an enthralling topic, and it's so fascinating to see how you could start with the Sumerian goddess Inanna, and after several millennia of the telephone game, you end up with the closely analogous Ashtart, Ishtar, Aphrodite, and Isis, the syncretized Hathor, Juno, and Artemis, and even a freaking demon in Kabbalah in the form of Astaroth.
Holy moly, what a pleasure it's been discovering your channel today. I finished grad school focusing on Ancient Near Eastern and Mesopotamian history, so topics like this one are few and far between on YT when it comes to killing time and thinking outside the box. As you probably know, details on this field can be rather scarce, so its nice to see a deeper dive being conducted as new evidence becomes more readily available. You sir have gained a subscriber- keep up the good work!
✝️ LORD JESUS DIED & ROSE AGAIN TO PAY THE DEBT OF UR SIN! ✅By Faith in the sacrifice God has made are we saved from the penalty of sin! 🔵Turn from your sin that leads to death & accept His Gift that leads to eternal Life! 💜We are all sinners that need God. No one can say they are perfect to be able to pay their debt of sin. This is why only God could pay the penalty for us, that is merciful Love!
THE ancient OF DAYS. Was from the beginning. Jesus is HIS GLORY IN THE FLESH. COLOSSIANS 1. Without JESUS NO SINNER WILL BE SAVED. JESUS IS VICTORY! ✨🙏❤✝💯 🎇May the force of HIS LIVING LOVING freedom be with you. WHERE THE SPIRIT OF THE LORD IS THERE IS LIBERTY! You're Jesus firework! HIS workmanship created unto GoOD works!
Thank you for for all the time and effort you put into this. This kind of academic content doesn't get enough love from the algorithm. But you've got me asking questions about "what it means to be a person" when I really should be sleeping!
Wow, then I have made videos about these older myths, and what they mean. Perhaps even listening to my video reading the Havamal, wise words from 1,500 years ago may also interest you. Thanks for watching and taking the time to comment.
I’ve been researching and learning about the Demeter/Persephone myth lately too! So this was perfect timing for me, I loved seeing the map and the changes in populations over time. I found that Hecate is tied up in the mythology of Demeter/Persephone as well, she is a three faced goddess, so together the three goddesses cover the maiden, mother, crone trinity. Hecate seems to reach further back in time. And another thing I discovered was this drink that’s in the Demeter/Persephone poem Kyleon, which is basically flavoured barley water. It’s full of many nutrients and drinking it helps you stay full for longer, I can imagine this drink being an important part of getting through winter for agricultural communities who might run out of food. Fascinating how ancient religious stories are such a good store of knowledge, we’re missing out in our contemporary culture for sure!
That barley water has a fair amount written about it, as it is mentioned in one of the Orphic Hymns, and some suggest it is a source for hallucination which helps keep hunger at bay. I will do a video about this one day. Thank you for watching and your comments, they are appreciated.
@@jessegrove5456 To die before you die... I really enjoyed that book and there are a few others like this. I do have a video on the Mead of Poetry which touches the subject too; th-cam.com/video/moNWKwEBE44/w-d-xo.html
I know the crone is connected to Hecate nowadays, but there are ancient depictions of Kore, Hecate, and Demeter where all 3 are young women. At times, Hecate was replaced with Artemis. I prefer to view the goddesses through archetypal psychology. I see myself as a modern-day Persephone/Hestia, but maybe that is just Hecate.
One of your best videos!!!! And alsoI can´t help but smile every time you talk about a ¨future video¨...Your list must be enormous. Thank you very much, I´m already waiting eagerly for whatever you have in store
probably one of the most informative and interesting videos i‘ve seen in the last few weeks. love the details and the general narration. made me want to read all the books about mythology on my shelf again!
I have been looking for a channel like this for so long. You're a great teacher! Thank you for the hard work and time you put in to educate and entertain us!
The origiin of the flood myth according to you is fascinating, explains why many cultures centered around Europe have one in their mythology. I was intrigued a while as to why there wasn't one in Japanese myth, but this explains it.
Your channel is amazing, I'd love to know more about Hekate as She also survived the arrival of the new gods, was honoured by Zeus and allowed to retain Her dominion over the land, sea and sky.
I really love seeing echoes of what happened in recent history (Classical to Early Medieval eras) reflected in ancient history: the old gods fill in the gaps of the new faith, and some are too great to be displaced, and so find new niches in the new faith, although perhaps of lesser importance than before. The Old Gods never die.
Never would have think I would stumble upon this topic. Would definitely use this channel to open up my mind to concepts I had almost never touched. Subscribed!
I was just recommended this video. As someone massively into both history and mythology this was an amazing first impression of this channel. I love that stuff like this shows me that no matter how much I know there is always things I just don't know. Thank you so much for the amazing video. I will deffinatly be watching more. I can't wait to learn more and correct the things I had wrong
I have heard the theory of the story of the Garden of Eden as a illustration for how peoples changed from living off the resources of the land then moving on, to becoming farmers and agriculturists and living in one place. I personally really like that idea.
That’s interesting, and I will make a video about Eden one day as there is much mythology within it. Thank you for watching and taking the time to comment
That is a really intriguing idea, I'd be interested in how the surrounding context of the early Hashem (pre-judaism proper, the earlier version who was a servant of El) serving as a gardener would play out. The context of the eden story is wrapped in a lot of earlier mythology!
@@macdougdoug It was a theory I first heard about 3 or 4 years ago. I'm sorry I can't remember exactly who was talking about it, but it was during a presentation about biblical archeology that I first heard the theory advanced. I thought it was a very intriguing way to explain early mankind's history of migrations and settlements.
Watched the same documentary several years ago, and was positively amazed, since the idea made perfect sense. Anyway, i think you are talking about the following documentary: th-cam.com/video/Ns5RRhV_JOI/w-d-xo.html
You - your stories - are fascinating, good sir. You've got an obvious and deeply-rooted familiarity with mythological matters, good sir, something that reveals your knowledge of the old gods and their messy, complicated lives. I'll definitely be back here, time and time again. In fact, I'm going to see what else you've posted. Right now.
had a long talk with some friends about gods, their origin, their "copies", and development of indoeuropean language and religion, and had to share this video with them, love your work!
This is the first video I’ve watched from this channel and I must say I really enjoy the content. Though I have to make a small correction: When the Indo-European proto-Greeks (otherwise called Minyans) arrived in Greece the Mycenaean civilization wasn’t a thing. The Mycenaeans were actually the result of the proto-Greek populations mixing with the native Neolithic farmers of Greeks. They weren’t a Neolithic people since they were, in part, the descendants of those indo-European migrants. In other words the Mycenaeans didn’t precede the indo-European migration into the Balkans. The Minoans on the other hand were purely indigenous and related to the aforementioned Neolithic farmers of the mainland who were also the primary ancestors of the Mycenaeans
Thank you for taking the time to comment and watching the video. Yes, a combination of bad video editing and being too high level on my part. I will correct this is a future video to explain the Minoans, but there was EFF DNA in Minoans, and so they were influenced in some degree by the Neolithic Farmers.
@@Crecganford They most definitely were since they were direct descendants of the EEF. A video on the Minoans sounds like a great idea. It is curious that Mycenaean society, being fundamentally an indo-European society, retained many more aspects of pre-Greek religion than PIE religion while also introducing certain new deities and customs. Perhaps the most important deities in pre-Greek religion, even more so than Demeter (or Potnia as she was called), were Eileithyia and Poseidon/Enesidaon
The Mycenaeans also took many aspects of the Minoan culture into their own. The art, gods, culture, clothing. My guess is after the minoan civilization fell the minoan people joined the Mycenaeans.
Decades ago, I read "The Ancient City" by Fustel de Coulanges. What I retained from that book was the understanding that the Greeks and the Romans had two parallel religions, the religion of Olympus and the religion of the hearth/ancestors. I understood that the hearth/ancestor religion pre-dated the Olympian religion. Perhaps you could do a video on "The Ancient City"?
It's refreshing to watch YT content that comes from the realm of academic research. While I enjoy some of the more fantastical channels that deal with our history, it's always nice to keep my feet planted in more probable realities.
I was always wondering about all the myths of old gods vs new gods, not only in Norse mythology but also in Greek like Olympians versus Titans. Also it always seems like they have problems in Mythology to decide whether those old gods like Demeter or Veles in Slavic mythology, are male or female. Sometimes they are male and sometimes female. What if the old gods of Neolithic farmers had no gender and were simply spirits and because of that the proto-indo Europeans were confused about the gender of the old gods?
Thank you for watching, and taking the time to comment. You may be happy to hear my next video, out on Saturday, will talk about the who the "giants" (aka Titans) really were. I think you may find that interesting.
@@Crecganford I think that the myth of the Titans were some of the ancient I.E gods that was not compatible with the new sedentary agro lifestyle. While the older PIE gods characteristics were assimilated in the new pantheon with few exceptions like Demeter or Hekate who retained their identity while others like Pandora was demonized or just erased.
Just discovered your channel today. I work from home and listen to YT while working, usually history or mythology or an audiobook. Your videos will fit right in :)
Fantastic work. It held my attention throughout the entire video with a lot of assertions that I'm sure took you quite a while to flesh out, but made absolute sense when superimposed over the migration events in Europe's prehistory. Well done.
@@Crecganford Absolutely. Any and all praise given to your works are, in my humble opinion, well deserved. Here in the US, I had to pay about $20,000 per semester to be able to access information like yours, which you give away for free. Thank you so much for all your time well spent and hard work dutifully performed...
When reading about Mesopotamian mythology, I started to feel that their primeval god Apsu was the same as the Egyptian primeval god Nun, and the Greek primeval god Tartaros, and they were originally something like benevolent gods of upheaval, but got re-imagined as either demonic figures or otherworldly places (hinting at how they were originally characterized) due to some cultural shift (urbanization?), with their positive traits given to other gods.
in the Greek mythology, it seems like the titans represent more naturalistic qualities but the Olympians represent more human ideals. I wonder if it's similar in other traditions.
@@stein1919 as a Norse pagan(ik I'm too lazy to change my name) it kinda is, we have primordial titan like beings that represents more primal forces/environments that then created and were displaced by one or more races (Asir, Vanir, and possibly jotunn thou that's debated) of more human like deities.
The first form of the Bible was written in 325BC, 80 years before and Antikythera mechanism, and was called the Vaticanus Graecus, Son of the Devine Serpent, a reference to Fomalhaut, which is shaped like the all seeing eye, in Aquarius, the sign associated with John the Baptist, who was a Setian, the root word of Satan. Just as israel is the Phoenician word for Saturn, or El, Fruit of Isis and Ra. In the Second Century AD Astrologer Vettori Valentinus used the Vaticanus Graecus to construct a lunar zodiac of 13 months, this correlates to the 18.6/ 19 year Metonic Calendar, found in the earliest known ancient temples, the Bible, Antikythera mechanism, New Grange and the Bru na Boinne, the Chaldeans, Egyptians, Assyrians, Celts, Phoenicians, and inscribed into the Golden Enoch Horns of the Magi, the Eunuch Druid Priests of Cybel, or Kythera, the "Great Mother", (who also has 216 names) in Germany and France. A Druid took 19 years to train, and the Phoenix was associated with 19 flames. TLDR; the ancient metric system of time used by the builders of the Megalithic sites all over the world directly correlates to the Astrological Zodiac and allows for the surveying of the entire globe. It's worth noting our current system has 8,640 seconds in a day, just as the sun is 864,000 miles wide. Enoch also wrote 36,525 scrolls, which is 365.25 times 100, the Egyptian number of perfection, which allowed them to calculate things to the second decimal place. The Great Pyramid is a Calendar, based on the Metonic Cycle and the Zodiac, hence the association of Osiris with Orion, and Pleiades Isis, atop the back of Taurus, just as the Phoenician Princess Europa, who rode the Bull. The entire Mediterranean region was also mapped out according to key constellations, marked by these Megalithic structures, which themselves encode these numbers The Byblos Baal, or Book of Baal is the Phoenician Almanac, a coded book of Astrological cycles used by the Priest Class of Egypt; the Phoenicians, to navigate the oceans. Phoenicians, Celts, Assyrians, Chaldeans, Egyptians and Jews all celebrated their New Year in September, the 7th month, the Sunsign of Ophiuchus, the Serpent Bearer, associated with the healing Gods, and marked by the first New Moon in the 7th month after the start of the Zodiac in Easter, when Ophiuchus is the East Star. In September the East star is Orion, aka Osiris, aka Set, Lord of the Dead. Hence the Aleph, and the Zayim, Alpha and Omega. It's also the Birthday of Jesus, and when he said he would return, at the end of the Age. It's reversed to keep the code secret, and written in metaphor so no one could know what was contained therein. It's an Enigma Code, literally. The Metonic cycle, in chronology, is a period of 19 years in which there are 235 lunations, or synodic months, after which the Moon's phases recur on the same days of the solar year, or year of the seasons. The cycle was discovered by Meton (fl. 432 bc), an Athenian astronomer. The Pyramid is also 230 metres square, or 235 Megalithic Yards. En-men-dur-ana (also Emmeduranki) of Sippar was an ancient Sumerian king, whose name appears in the Sumerian King List as the seventh pre-dynastic king of Sumer. He was said to have reigned for 43,200 years His name means "chief of the powers of Dur-an-ki", while "Dur-an-ki" in turn means "the meeting-place of heaven and earth" (literally "bond of above and below") Arc of the Covenant There are also 86,400 seconds in a 24 hr day. 24 minutes is 1440 seconds, times 100 gives us 144,000 A list of ten kings was composed in Greece c. 280 BC by the Babylonian priest Berossos, and their reign totals 432,000 years. In the Icelandic Poetic Edda it is said that there are 540 doors in Odin's heavenly hall of warriors Five hundred doors and forty there are I ween in Valhalls walls; Eight hundred fighters through each door fare Where to war the Wolf they go. The war with the Wolf was the recurrent battle of the gods and anti-gods at the end of each cosmic round. Here we have 540 x 800 = 432,000. In the Mahabharata and Puranic texts, the cosmic cycle of four world ages numbers 12,000 divine years, one year corresponding to 360 human years for a total of 12,000 x 360 = 4,320,000 human years. This is broken down into yugas as follows: Kali = 432,000 years or 1200 x 360 Dwarpa = 864,000 years or 1200 x 360 x 2 Treta = 1,296,000 years or 1200 x 360 x 3 Satya = 1,728,000 years or 1200 x 360 x 4 The number 432,000 has been found in Europe (1100 AD), India( very ancient, and 400 BC), Mesopotamia (c 300 BC)in reference to a cosmic eon. At the moment of the Spring equinox (March 21) the heavens are never quite in the same position they were the year before, since there is an annual lag of 50 seconds which in the course of 72 years amounts to 1 degree (50" x 72 = 3600" = 60' = 1 degree) and in 2160 years amounts to 30 degrees or one sign of the zodiac. For instance, today the sun stands in Aquarius at the Spring equinox, in 1976 the sun stood in Pisces and in the time of Christ it was in Aries. This slippage is known as the precession of the equinox. Copernicus in 1526 AD calculated this same figure. We note also that the lag is 50 seconds/year or 1 degree in 72 years, 30 degrees in 2160 years, 360 degrees in 25,920 years or one complete cycle of the zodiac. But 25,920 divided by 60 gives 432. The ancient Sumerian calendar had five-day weeks or 72 x 5 = 360 days per year. But 360 x 72 = 25,920. The integer 1200 represents the sum of the years in India for a cosmic cycle. Now 1200 x 201 = 241,200 1200 x 380 = 456,000 1200 x 360 = 432,000 These numbers correspond to the Sumerian tablet list of ten kings who ruled for a total of 456,00 years, a second tablet which lists only eight of these kings with a total of 241,200 years, and Berossos' list. The Book of Genesis lists ten patriarchs from Adam to Noah and the Flood totalling 1656 years. In the Jewish calendar one year is 365 days. In 23 years plus 5 leap year days we have 8400 days or 1200 seven-day weeks. If we multiply 1200 x 72 we get 86,400 or the number of Jewish seven-day weeks in 1656 (23 x 72) years. Since the Babylonian calendar year was composed of 72 five-day weeks, then in 432,000 days there are 86,400 Babylonian five-day weeks. Then in 432,000 days there are 86,400 Babylonian five-day weeks (432,000/5). Thus the Bible concurs with the other lists as well. The earth's axis wobble that causes the precession of the equinoxes is given as 25,920 years. Divided by the ancient number called "soss," 60, which was used in calculations, results in 432. The Greek Ages also bear a close correspondence to the four Yugas of the Hindus: Krita-Yuga, Treta-Yuga, Dvapara-Yuga, and Kali-Yuga. Their method of calculation is described by Ullamudeian as follows: "In each of the 12 signs there are 1800 minutes; multiply this number by 12 you have 21600; e.g. 1800 X 12=21600. Multiply this 21600 by 80 and it will give 1,728,000, which is the duration of the first age, called Krita-Yuga." If the same number be multiplied by 60, it will give 1,296,000, the years of the second age, Treta-Yuga. The same number multiplied by 40 gives 864,000, the length of the third age, Dvapara-Yuga. The same multiplied by 20 gives 432,000, the fourth age, Kali-Yuga." (It will be noted that these multipliers decrease in inverse ratio to the Pythagorean tetractys: 1, 2, 3, and 4.) The Essenes studied the Mysteries of Pythagoras. His name means Heart (Bel) of the Serpent. The cycle of the Phoenix encodes the astrological calendar by which they removed 3 days every 630 years. This was expressed in a Pythagorean Triangle of Dimensions 216 by 630 by 666. 6 x 6 x 6 is 216, there are 2160 years in an astrological age, and the Moon is 2160 miles in diameter. The solar metonic calendar using 60 6 day weeks produces 1 extra day every 216 years. There are also 216 Megalithic seconds in a day, and 216 letters in the name of God
Thanks for this great video, as usual. On the Greek Myceneans, however, I always thought (as a non-specialist) these were not merely influenced by Indoeuropenas, but they *were* the Indoeuropean conquerors of Greece (or something like that). Indeed, they spoke Greek, which is an indoeuropean language, and as testified by writings in linear B. These are the people of the Iliad, fighting with chariots and so on. So the mycenean culture did not merge with the indoeuropean, but is the result of merging.
Yes, a few noticed I said Mycenaean as opposed to Minoan, which I did say but edited out when I shrunk the video… I will correct this formally when I next make a video on the subject. Thanks for noticing :)
I am SO glad one of your videos popped up in my suggestions , I have subscribed and want to thank you for sharing your knowledge with us , it’s fascinating .
I like that Dionysus was also originally the death/underworld God like Hades. A male god that is associated with death and vegitation, or the dying god can be seen in figures like Osiris and Dimuzid. Inanna and Persephone are also very similar godesses, decending into the underworld and making their way out. It's so awesome to find links like this. I will also say in a lot of Moon deities the female are associated with a full moon (pregnancy) whereas male gods are often associated with the crescent moon which symbolises a bull's horns.
I wonder why the earliest version of a PIE sun god were female or associated with feminine energy? And then later became male in descendant cultures? My guess is perhaps PIE speakers picked up on the sun being important for plant growth, so associated growth/life with feminine energy. Cuz women give birth and what not. Then other cultures considered it a masculine energy for different reasons, maybe strength and vitality or something. Something similar occurred with Taino of the Caribbean. They personified the sun and it's spirit/major ancestral spirit as Yucahu (literally, breath/spirit of yuca). Yuca was their staple crop, so they attributed it's growth to Yucahu, who provided the sun's rays. Kinda interesting cuz they were observing photosynthesis, and then used the best of their knowledge at the time to explain it.
@@Joyride37 I don't know, but there are older sun god's too. Interestingly the mesopotamian moon god Arma had two children: Utu (sun) and Inanna (morning star) which is an interesting take considering the sun and moon are usually a coupled pair.
Maybe women coopted the moon as a moon goddess when they realized that they could track their menses to the phases of the moon. They told stories if the moon goddess to both their male and female children and soon enough those boys grew up to be men who believed in the moon goddess?
The interesting thing is that some mythologies have connections that are as far as Iberia to Japan or Iran to Mexico. There are theories suggesting that there may be more to this then people moving around, that humans do really have some inherent moral beliefs or stories.
I just found your channel by accident and now I can’t stop watching your videos…..excellent and educational work you put into your content….new subscriber! 🦌🌲🦅
You’re wrong about something (respectfully). Proto Greek speakers migrated in to Greece much earlier and mixed with the farmers to form the Mycenaean culture of the late Bronze Age. there was a Greek dark age and then the classical Greek age emerged. The classical Greeks were the direct genetic descendants of the Mycenaeans exactly. the mixing you’re talking about happened much earlier. The Mycenaean pantheon was Indo European. The most recent genetic evidence suggests exactly that. We assumed otherwise in The past because classical Greek writers told of a cultural invasion later on, but we have since disproven this through genetic testing. But yes the Minoans of Crete were of the farmer lineage. But not the Mycenaeans. When Linear B was deciphered it was proven to be Proto Greek as well. (linear b being the Mycenaean alphabet).
Actually, the Classical Greeks are quite distant from the Mycenaeans, as genetic studies state. The classical Greeks were a mixture of Mycenaean and northern greek populations who were quite distant.
To be honest ancient Near Eastern and European peoples were very similar to one another (denser male beard and lack of epicanthus) and also the ancient Central Asians (all these ancients termed "West Eurasians" also have a large contribution to South Asian peoples... Central Asia was mostly West Eurasian for it’s history).
i like how my studies online about philosophy or Anthropology of Religion has led me straight into social studies class again, i subbed and hope you keep up the great work!
Another awesome Crecganford video... I've been researching PIE invasions/migrations vs. earlier, non-patriarchal belief systems and your work fills in a lot of gaps. Please keep 'em coming.
what a marvellous channel to come across. Really enjoying the video and yes I would certainly love to watch further exploration on these early early time periods. Thank you so much for this thoughtful content.
This channel is so interesting, and I love this video. You discussion about two sets of pantheon gods reminds me of when I was studying ancient Egyptian theology, it always seemed to me that there was an initial set of supreme gods such as Nun and Ptah which later became surpassed by the Ra-Osiris-Horus trinity.
My personal favorite theory as to why we stopped moving is that temples came first as essentially old folks homes. From there the elders could develop farming, administration, and wisdom while younger family members could drop off meat as they passed through as a sort of home base. It makes more sense than suddenly stopping and waiting for a few years until plants were propagated that could deliver enough energy to live off.
I could see many ways that your idea could be supported. For example, humans propagate in an atypical manner that allows for large number of progeny per mother despite the high state of dependency and long time to mature of human infants. Evolutionary biology explains this unusual fecundity in which humans continue to bear children while still raising others, by the presence of grandparents. The longer human lifespan allows non fertile individuals the opportunity to participate in child rearing and that labor is a force multiplier for the reproductive individuals that lets them stay busy with the survival of the species. Translating how that sociobiology would manifest in a culture it's not difficult to envision a house of elders being not only a childcare center but also a repository of wisdom. Thank you for the intriguing idea.
What I find interesting are the etymologies of the names of Demeter of Poseidon. Older Greek versions of their names are Damater and Poseidaon/ Potedawon. Both with the proto-Greek word *Da, meaning 'Earth'. So their names meaning "Earth-mother" and "Husband of the Earth". I wonder if in Mycenean times there used to be a deeper connection between the two than what is shown by later Greek mythology.
Poseidon actually means "Master of the Earth". He was also called Ennosigaeos "Earth-shaker" (Mycenean E-ne-si-da-o-ne), because earthquakes were attributed to him.
It's interesting to note that civilized people often take the position that people made animals into equivalent of people. When it's more likely that hunter gatherers, akin to American indians saw it as the opposite. That men were like all other living things, just trying to get by in a tough world.
I don't know. But most of the dieties of the original native American pantheon seem to be animals, mostly real ones that they would have seen in real life. It is likly that this was once true all over the place.
@@milascave2 It's like the modern attitude that people had myths to explain natural phenomenon. We assume that because that's how we were taught to think in school. Myth is not just how to explain natural phenomenon, but much much more complex. Same with our understanding of older religions, especially the early shamanic. Instead of asking people who still live in these circumstances we take the word of a college professor or academic who doesn't understand the world in which these people lived, and some still live. We fall into that trap of assuming everyone thinks the way we do, but that's far from true.
@@algernoncalydon3430 yes indigenous world views and beliefs across the world all share a common idea that humans are part of nature, that the animals and trees are our brothers and sisters, that everything is connected. Considering the strides we've made in understanding evolutionary biology and astrophysics, their world view is arguably the most accurate. We literally are connected to everything by being made up of the remnants of stars, and all life on earth being descended from a single cell millions of years ago. Science and spiritually meet at last! haha
@@Joyride37 this guy hit the ringer, it's literally everything. We had a supreme creator who started the universe, or the great move up towards the surface world, basically from the 5 worlds below. In these 5 worlds the gods finish "god's" creation. There are two classes of people, the holy people and earth people.
Thanks for the time delving into this. You brushed over The Flood story though rather quickly. Geophysicists Ryan & Pitman have done an excellent physical detailing of the flooding of the Mediterranean Sea from the Atlantic, which also changed the Black Sea from fresh to salt water. 7600 years ago or so. People were living all along these basins and were uprooted in a single generation. Pottery styles, building styles & materials carried with them. Stands to follow their gods did too.
The flood story is not so important to this video, however I will cover it in detail in the next few months, including the earliest linguistic traces we have of it, so far far older than Gilgamesh.
You have such a great voice for narration! So relaxing and honestly just your voice alone makes you sound so smart & professional. Thanks for the content, I’ve learned a lot from your Channel.
That was really interesting, thank you. I'm not religious myself, but do have a respect for religions and what they can teach us. The history and lineage of religious beliefs fascinates me. This video came up on my feed, and this kind of study is right up my street. You've a new subscriber and I'll certainly be checking out some of your other videos. Cheers. Hope you stay safe and well, too.
@@flamingdonut9456 it’s so interesting why humanity had developed the capacity to tell these good/nice stories and traditions, and developed long distance trading when it’s kinda unneeded for just a hunter/gatherer. Looks like abundance of resources and dependence of mothers on society may have selected the greatest intelligence possible, mainly expanding in reasoning power, memory power, communication/sociability and of course technology.
Awesome video-it synthesizes a number of things I’d known about the pre-proto-IE but hadn’t put together, so thank you! Demeter has long been one of my favorite goddesses, and you make a great case for her being pre-IE.
I’m sure you have your hands full managing all the languages you work with, so I thought I’d mention the proper pronunciation of Demeter’s name. In Δεμήτερ, the ε is short and the ή is long-so, in modern English, it’s deh-MEE-ter. (If you were an ancient Greek, it’d be closer to deh-MAY-tare.) The emphasis has to be on the second syllable. Enjoying your videos so much. Thanks for your work!
I just found your channel. For me, this area of study acts like a much needed bridge between the chronological ancient history I find so interesting, and the topical history that's often a matter of inferences due to the lack of written sources from those prehistory periods. No doubt you're aware that inference can be handicapped with the baggage of biases. So, to see an approach which appears to use deduction and critical thinking in its analysis method, looks to be one which has a better chance of avoiding modern cultural biases from the researcher's inferences, and by extension, their findings. You likely know this as well. In another example of mythological inheritance which has survived into the gardening world of today, there is a period of time each year some call the "Persephone Days"; when the amount of available sunlight drops below 10 hrs per day. This is usually considered the threshold below which the amount of available sunlight is too little to help plant growth in any effective way. Oh, and you got a new sub. Hello!
When I studied anthropology, as part of my post-grad studies,I too, looked at this aspect, my research was never published, I didn't have the benefit of DNA to support me, and relied heavily on philology,, and archaeological evidence that was available, some 50 yearrs ago, what I find pleasing,and a tad flattering, is that my research, is being borne out and supported by modern research, which has far greater scientific foundation, than I could have dreamt of at the time of my initial research. So I take this opportunity to thank you for this upload, and look forward to hearing more from your good self.
At 18:15 Ultimately, Homer’s epic: The Illiad about The Trojan War was likely based on a collection of oral traditions that went back to The Fall of The Bronze Age in 1200 B.C.E., a “dark ages” from the perspective of Classical Greeks looking back on their ancestors, and their enemies. So, maybe you could look at that narrative as a way to preserve that history for both themselves and the invading Indo - European cultures. It seems that even Troy can be identified from written literature in the archaeological record because some cuneiform tablets from 1280 B.C.E. were found in which a king of Wilusa was complaining to a Hittite king about a lack of assistance he wasn’t sending. How could Wilusa be Troy? Well the Pre-Classical Greeks probably dropped the pronunciation of the w, thus Wilusa becames Illium (Greek for Troy), and Homer calls it The Illiad (‘The story of Troy’).
@@absalomdraconis Along those lines it’s been said in some translations that Arthur is a title a person in the form of King Arthur. So, the matter regarding Homer wouldn’t surprise me.
Troy was damaged or destroyed at least twice around the 13th century BCE, and it's likely one or both of these destructions would go on to (partially) inspire the Epic Cycle, being combined with older, half-remembered Indo-European tales and mythic structures - but at this point, both sides of the conflict (Achaean/Myceneans and Trojans/Luwians) were pretty firmly Indo-European. I think it's doubtful that either the Myceneans or the Dark Age / Archaic Greeks (or even the Trojans, for that matter) would have had cultural memories reaching far enough back (1000+ years at the least) for them to recognise or even conceptualise this shift. I suppose it's poetic in a way to read the Iliad as recording the battle for and against Proto Indo-European cultures - and it may be true that some pre-IE culture lingers in the recesses of the text - but if there is a hidden history here, it isn't one which was included at all consciously.
Another copy of genesis Genesis chapter 1 There were once two very intelligent animals God admired their tenacity and intuition he had guided them to the oasis that they now shared God called them Ari and Kea These were the first two people A beautiful ancestor of womankind And the handsome predecessor of all mankind they themselves were not all unalike from the creatures of the earth before they A species of early man now known as Australopithecus Afarensis He would see her picking fruits and tending to plants and he quietly admired her presence and passion, she would see him hunting with purpose and respect She admired his stoicism and rationale Overtime the male and female grew more and more comfortable with each other They would leave gifts for one another It gave them great pleasure to provide for the other The Woman would conceive a way to record all the gifts that the hunter had left for her each day She developed a simple counting system that began with one I,II,III,IV,V,VI,VII,VIII,VIII,IX,X these numerals the foundation of modern mathematics She continued until she had counted to 21 Each gift carried his blessings unto her she was very comfortable with the man she decided to make the first physical contact as she wasn’t sure whether or not the man would She opened up her arms And he took her embrace It was good This gave them a feeling the woman would call joy She counted one more gift and marked it as it was XII Chapter 2 Ari would show Kea the fruits that she had picked climbing the tallest of trees And he would share with her the meat that he had honorably hunted for in the field that once separated them They began to make noises with their mouths that would be used to entertain, explain themselves and quarrel amongst themselves Often considering the sounds they came up with quite amusing This is how the first Woman invented the first language, she had done so to describe all that she would see in the garden of Eden And she shared her discovery with who she felt was very special as she felt he had been reason for the discovery Kea and Ari could now speak to each other It was a simpler language it illustrated the nature, the animals, and each other It was a very sweet language and they made many words Ari began to make a collection of shapes corresponding to the different sounds their mouths could make She would call them letters The first alphabet Was 20 letters and contained A B D F G I J K L N O P Q R S T V X Y Z They discovered one could arrange these letters to make meaningful words, now they could better express the emotion and character of all that they laid eyes on there would soon be a word for all that was in the garden of Eden When they ran out of plants and animals to describe that the two people realized they hadnt yet made words for themselves yet She wrote a new letter into the dirt that she felt represented her, her husband would do the same, he scribbled The letter M and she came up with the letter VV He took her hand into his, looked lovingly into her eyes and told her what he was ”I am man” she smiled and declared “I am woman” Now they had a word to describe All the Things that they loved The alphabet now had 22 letters
Great video and analysis of Demeter/Persphone myths. I never realized that the seeds Persephone eats must be buried in the earth (her trip underground) to grow and sprout (when she returns to the above world). There is no trick keeping her in Hades' realm; she has to go there for the seeds to germinate and spout.
Thank you for watching, and commenting. The map data literally is a month old, and so I felt it a good way to get that information out there. I’m pleased you enjoyed it all.
My guess for some mesolithic or paleolithic gods would be Aurochs (extinct giant bull) and the venus goddess, probably representing fertility/childbirth of which many statuettes were found dating to even paleolithic times. Of course they had many animistic beliefs and probably worshipped or believed were divine all things found in nature (water, sky, sun, moon, trees, other animals, and even their own ancestors).
Oh finally. It's so incredibly difficult to find reliable information on this. Usually religious lineage only traces back to the proto Indo European pantheon, but these gods have origins across the world that date even further back
I have some cool information on that. My paternal side of the family is Basque and I have listened to my elders since the 70'a about some of the older rural lore and stories. The channel owner can contact me to open up a discussion if he is interested.
The reverse investigation is an incredible reference for fantasy or fiction writers in general for the process of engineering gods for a ppl one is writing or creating. This is amazing, thank you for sharing
What a great video - Glad to see the references to academic papers. Thank you for making these high effort pieces, glad the algorithm pointed me your way
Thor and Odin are not duplications. Odin has aspect of being associated with wisdom and search for knowledge, while Thor gets associated with heroic warrior archetype.
Sunrise sparkle - Thor is the son of Odin(Woden). And the same Father/son relationship can be seen in Egypt (Osirus/Horus) and other pantheon's in Persia and Assyria. Fascinating stuff.
Very interesting vid, the graphs and maps were helpful. PIE studies are always fascinating because they essentially form the gritty origin stories of so many of the myths that still bear the weight of the religious beliefs of billions, even today. They sort of intrinsically perform the work that Nietzsche famously spoke of: They "kill God", replacing myths with stories whose origins and patterns are fundamentally _knowable,_ just like the rest of the universe
Yes, they do that. They allow evidence that most religions are but myth… and I’m pleased you like the video, and thanks for taking the time to comment on things :)
Fascinating stuff! I'm glad you mentioned the Norse pantheon at the end, as I was thinking of the Æsir/Vanir split the whole time. I always found it interesting as a kid, reading the Norse myths (in Iceland we all read this in school) who these mysterious Vanir were, because clearly the Æsir were the "main" gods, yet somehow there was this rival/ally group of other gods. My feeling is you allude to Odin as possible an even older god, I might be wrong, but I've heard theories about Odin's origin being from the hunter gatherer Sami peoples and related groups, as this sort of shaman-god. Regardless, great stuff, made a subscriber out of me! Thanks.
Yes, thank you! Odin is very complicated with many influences to create the god we know in Old Norse myths. Most scholars consider he is influenced from the Indic Varuna, to the Roman Mercury, the Proto Indo-European Manu, and the Pre-Proto Indo-European spirits of death which took the form of Wild Hunt. I’ve made a couple of videos touching on some of these ideas if you’re interested in watching them. Thanks again for your support and taking the time to comment.
@@Crecganford Perun and Perkunas is often associated with the Indo-European sky father Perkwunos. Also, the cult of Lugus from where in the later medieval Irish legends of Lugh Lamfhada or the long-arm "as he is a spear wielding god" may have influence the cult of Woþanaz as they both became spear wielding gods. The Fomoire vs the Tuatha De Danann from Irish myth, The Titans vs The Olympians from Hellenic myth, the Æsir vs the Vanir from Norse myth, are all identical. Even Perun vs the Żmija is similar in Slavic myth. When Svarog was born from the Cosmic Egg, there are numerous parallels with the Greek Orphic mystery tradition of Phanes Protogonos being born from the Cosmic Egg. Svarog is also similar with Saturnus or Chronos where Perun takes over the supreme god, just as Zeus or Jupiter did. The Irish myth Balor the one eyed is similar to the Hellenic myth of the Cyclops.
I keep coming back to this video. It heavily influenced my recent thoughts about deities and religion in ancient Europe. I'm glad you mentioned both the eldest Olympian transplants and also the Vanir. All great examples. When looking to Greece and Olympus, I see the oldest guises on the faces of: APHRODITE (A Near East transplant in that Inanna/Ishtar/Astarte archetype, all of whom predated Greek culture, also in the mythos described as older than the Olympians) DEMETER and PERSEPHONE (Eleisis and so much more!) DIONYSUS (Who may have once also been the Underworld god Zagreus before taking an Indo-Iranian sabbatical and coming back round again) HECATE (An Anatolian émigré, and likely a very early one who later was one of the LEAST Olympian of the Greek gods yet still highly independent and quite highly revered) POSEIDON (Likely the original Demeter's consort, before he was lord of the sea, thus his Chthonic roots in earthquakes and horses) and PAN (whose role likely later split into both him and Hermes) The other Olympians all seem to have far more classic Indo-European roles: Archery, domesticity, light, music and other culture, order vs. chaos, paternalism, philosophy, prophecy, scheming long-suffering wives, sky fathers, strategy, technology, war. Though ARTEMIS may also hint at something older, as she's quite unlike her twin APOLLO, who's as Indo-European as it gets. By the latter days of Mycenae, we have ZEUS and HERA, but as comparative youngsters. It's telling that he's the youngest of the original six Olympians. Learning that there were gods honored in Mycenae who were later forgotten by the days of Classical Greece is fascinating. Why didn't they make it, but those above seem to have? Popularity, influence, being gods of the common folk, their priesthoods' power in society? Probably all of those. What regular folk hold dear will always find a way to remain even with the influx of other cultures, class struggles, religious friction and so much more. Thank you again for all the food for thought!
Just found you and about to perservativly devour everything you've ever posted. Just enjoyed this with my 86 year old grandpa. Thanks for the wonderful memory you helped make.
I know the religion of Europa, some sort of female bull riding goddess, was insanely popular in early Europe, which is where we get the word "Europe" from. But I could not find any details around who Europa was or what she was known for. She's just depicted riding atop a bull that's apparently running away with her. I suspect she must've been a fertility symbol but not sure how she came to be universally accepted among nearly all ancient Europeans.
Most academics agree she is probably of Phoenician origin, but I do not know much else about her off the top of my head. Although I would assume she is several thousand years old. I will do a little reading, and if interesting enough I’ll make a video about her :) Thanks for watching and taking the time to comment.
Hestia and Hecate are two goddesses in the Greek pantheon that would make a great study with regard to this aspect of their origins and ultimate sidelining.
If we think of 2 sets of gods in the Norse myth, then there is a 3rd as well. Even in Greek there's a set of gods we really don't want to associate with. I do think Titans or the Giants are the reflection of what might be yet older than the Early Farmers.
Now that is an interesting thought, and either my next video or the one after will explain who the Jotun were, and this can be applied to the Titans and similar. I won’t spoil the answer now, but I think you will be surprised :) Thanks for watching and taking the time to comment, and I hope you subscribe.
@@Crecganford To elaborate a bit, I see it as the original animistic forces splitting in to the "good" and "evil" gods at a point. But yes, can't wait to learn.
@@demoncore5342 That hapened later. About 800 BC, THE PERSIONS ENVISIONS A WORLD IN WHICH a God of Light and a God of darkness were in a constant and eternal war. After th Persions liberated the Hebrews from the Babloniuns, and helped them to go back home and recreate therir religion. This was the birth of Judaism, and it incorperated something like a God of light and a poweful figurte of darkness. And this then migrated into Chritianity and Islam, where it was greatly intensfied.
@@milascave2 Not what I'm about tho... Let's think fire for example: it keeps you warm, lights up the darkness, let's you cook and create tools. But at the same time, fire kills, destroys property and crops... Makes sense to praise the good fire and seek protection from the evil fire. And same goes for any force of nature.
Back in 2014 I made a short foray into this rabbit hole. I was thinking about the origins of Xmas decorations put up at work, and surmised "...most people don't even know why there are 60 seconds in a minute, or seven days in a week, or blue for boys. (Odd one that, look it up.) or where the names of the days of the week come from." Then I stopped in the middle of the week and thought, "Wait a minute, where the hell did Tuesday come from?" I could rattle off: Sunday Sun's day Monday Moon's day Wednesday Wodan's day Thursday Thor's day Friday Frigg's day Saturday Saturn's day (the only Roman one, the rest are Norse/Germanic) As for Tuesday, I couldn't dredge up a single hint of meaning from my poor puzzled grey matter. It turns out that Tuesday is named after yet another Norse god, Tiw, or Týr. Týr is sort of a diminished remnant of a once-central PIE god, pushed into the background by newer ones..
First time watching you. Your voice is amazing and you are fantastic at filtering down very broad subjects. Never seen anyone explain these things so simply. Plus Dionysus is amazing, I love beings in myth that seem to scatter and don’t completely fit because it makes you learn even more of origins and evolutions. I now need to look more into Demeter. Subscribing now!
The narrative parallel to the anthropologic timeline is a very nice touch, good work. The famous Titanomachy (battle between the Olympians and the Titans) always reminds me of either the climate shift (end of the last ice age) or hunter-gatherer lifestyle to agriculture - just as fascinating as Hercules' battle with the "Hydra" multi-headed monster symbolizing the branching riverbeds and mankind's struggle to control them ("hydra-" means "water" right?). However, there is one "group" of gods/goddesses that confuses me are the "Chthonic" deities - gods of the underworld. Hades, despite being one of the three brothers along with Zeus and Poseidon, is not considered an "Olympian" but a Chthonic god. Interesting thing here is, as Hades has a dark reputation of being the patron of the realm of the dead but he is also the god of riches buried deep within the earth - gems and valuable metals and it's hard to correlate these aspects to the rest of Greek myths, in the sense of finding their real-life counterparts, symbolically. The distinction between the "living" surface and the "dead" underground is obvious, yet both Demeter and Persephone are considered Chthonic goddesses. Also, let's not forget Hecate; the three-faced goddess of crossroads, witchcraft and necromancy - protector of the "oikos", the "household" - sharing this aspect with Zeus, Hestia, Hermes and Apollo and yet not an Olympian 😇.
The craziest thing I've ever heard that blew my mind was you saying. People used to believe every other animal was just like them, concious just like them, and thus they felt connected to everything. As if they were just another animal. Humans becoming so narscacistic shows why so many problems developed
Interestingly though we've found refrences to Zeus, Poseidon, Persephone, Demeter, Ares, Dionysus, Hera, Artemis, Apollo in Linear B, or the pre-Phonetic Mycanean script. Even further Zeus wasn't the head deity, Poseidon was, furthermore no records of Hades has been found but Poseidon appears to cover Hades' role. Furthermore the story of Persephone's birth appears in Mycanean record but as Poseidon and Demeter's child. Seeing as Mycaneans and Minoans are relatively homogeneous genetically speaking, and the Mycaneans indo-european settlers of the area it does provide some odd points on the religion. To that end modern Greeks (and therefore going back to the Bronze Age Collapse) are genetically mostly Mycanean given recent genetic tests in the area. This suggests a subset of Indo-Europeans who didn't prioritize the sky father in Zeus but Poseidon, who pulled triple duty for the Sea Earthshaker and Underworld alongside chief deity. Though culturally speaking that tracks, the Mycaneans appeared to place a heavy emphasis on chthonic deities and were also incredible sea farers. It likely wasn't until later Dorian invasions and Greek Dark Age when the Mycaneans a) adopted the Phoenician script as Hellenic Greek and b) reshuffled their deities to match more closely to their Indo-European cousins who came into the peninsula and eventually melded into them (to the point modern Greeks are still largely genetically Mycanean). And even then given Zeus, albeit presumably, held the epithet of Wanax or "the King" which could suggest older religious holdovers despite Poseidon now being the chief deity. So uhhh... Yeah
Modern Greeks like to pretend the were genetically unscathed after living for 300 years or so occupied by the Ottoman Turks. They are not the same blood as the Mycenaean Greeks, for now they look like Turks. Good knowledge of Linear B, however. Poseidon was the great god, no doubt. He may have been the top deity even before the Greeks became seafarers. And Aphrodite did not exist!
This video makes sense: I was taught that the Vanir was older than the Aesir, and Nerthus was the oldest of the lot. Nerthus was possibly the one people sacrificed to in lakes and bogs.
@@caniblmolstr452 heaps of different Muslim leaders throughout history have condemned iconoclasm just as many also voraciously approved of it, just like Christian leaders. The two religions have ebbed and flowed between extremes since their foundings, you have to remember that Salafist Islam is a modern fundamentalist re-interpretation and isn't representative of Islam all throughout history.
@@w0t_m818 Islamic rulers in India destroyed unspeakable number of temples, universities and libraries for almost a thousand years. Establishing Islam in foreign lands was one of the primary reasons given for invasions by many Muslim Kings. Historically speaking, Islam and Islamic rulers have wiped out the original religion and culture of almost every country they invaded and settled. So no its not a modern thingg.
@@w0t_m818 salafist Islam is just the most extreme but the subsuming of the local culture has always bee present. You think the present Syrians, Iraqis, Palestinians, Egyptians are the people they claim to be. Nope. They are all Arabs who conveniently have adopted the local culture they destroyed. In the same manner let's say an American today may call themselves Red Indian after killing off all the Red Indians
Absolutely fascinating!! You have such a magnificent world roaming perspective!! I'm gobsmacked!! I'm actually having trouble catching my breath!!! Beyond interesting! Fascinating!!!!
Little bit of a necropost, but I'm an ancient civ student going into fourth year and I wanted to do my final thesis on the ancient gods. Ever since I was a kid I've seen all the parallels between different pantheons and wanted to find the original ones, that most of the IndoEuropean and even some Near Eastern cultural pantheons adapted from as stories changed or were shared via trade and migration, if there even is one single pantheon that started it all. It's gonna take me ages but it'll be worth it if I can find it! That being said: new sub!
The concept of religion changed so much between 20k and 10k years ago, and from 10k to now, that I think to find an original pantheon would be challenging at best, and I wish you luck. And thank you for watching and your comment.
![[MV] A leap of faith...ความเชื่อใจครั้งสุดท้าย (From "Petrichor the series")](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/U1piZH2CNXA/mqdefault.jpg)
Are there any gods that you think are pre-proto indo-european?
Dagda ?
Lucifer / prometheus also Roman deity " Genius "cognate with Persian word " Jaan .= Psyche "
Possibly other groups of gods that are considered "older" or "other" and at war with a newer pantheon. Examples are the Asuras of the Vedic religion or the Titans and primordial gods of the Greek religion. As for specific deities, maybe someone very ancient like Inanna/Ishtar/Astarte/Aphrodite, since her origins are complex and possibly a merging of many different sources. It's possible that the Greek goddess Eos - a version of the PIE dawn goddess - was later combined with the Inanna Semitic import cult that had already formed Aphrodite. The latter's influence on the probably originally separate Venus is also interesting.
@@majidbineshgar7156 good ideas! Thank you
@@SpaceMonkey15 funnily enough I am in the process of making videos on some of these :) Thanks for watching and taking the time to comment.
When we look at a river from a distance, it looks like a snake or serpent winding its way through the countryside. Is that why serpents are often associated with rivers and water?
Great question, and there are a few different hypothesis on this. Certainly one I know by Lahiri in his book Vedic Vrtra talks about the flooding of the rivers, and they destruction they brought) as being a metaphor for a chaotic serpent, and because this flooding was accompanied by storms, it was often considered a conflict between a Storm God and a serpent.
I know the aboriginal Australians have a rainbow serpent myth which is usually associated with land forms and such(my local walgurugaba believe it formed a river and some islands), I suspect that it is partly related to the look of snake tracks in sand (valleys with mountains on the side) and so people have assumed that snakes made the river, I think similar myths could of also been the source for the indo European snake deity beliefs, though having an evil nature due to the flooding effects on the land.
Or there are many water snakes out there, and all snakes are good swimmers, that can be a reason the Snakes/Serpents are associated with river and water, may be!
The snake was a symbol of the messenger of the mother goddess. The snake goes into the earth, it renews itself by shedding it skin. The snake is the ancient symbol for wisdom.
European gods????? 😭😭😭😭 God's of evil? You all are the last race to come around talking about European gods. Europeans don't have ancestors, ya'll have forefathers. This is completely an oxymoron to say call one a European God. You talk about taking and taking and even taking PEOPLE. There is NO SUCH THING as an European God. You can't be half Neanderthal and be a God. How about you all stop trying to take from our African culture which is the culture that BIRTHED all human civilization on earth, THATS GOD'S. Stop this because this is totally an oxymoron
There is one mistake here: Mycenaeans were indoeuropians, Minoans that precede them were not. Mycene culture started when indoeuropean trybes merged with agriculturallists that precedes them.Greeks called them Pelasgians.That happened somewhere from 2500-2000 B.C.
Yes, well spotted, I have placed a correction in the descriptive text. Thank you.
@natasa stefanovic This is a fresh take on the "we wuz" meme.
@@elverkongen2515 welcome to the balkans
@natasa stefanovic do you have any local legends and myths about where exactly Atlantis existed?
A theory I've recently come accross is that it's the Eye of the Sahara, but even this is largely based on Plato's retelling, so might not be accurate
@natasa stefanovic very interesting, i will have to look into this. Also i think you mean slav, not slaw? Same with slavic not slawish
When you said Zeus-PERKUNAS, I almost spit my drink -- "Perkūnas" in Lithuanian mythology is the god of the sky/thunder. Perkūnas is also the word used to for thunder. Never knew that anthropologists refer to Zeus-Perkunas
That was a very early name for Zeus, he absorbed the Greek Storm God
@@Crecganford So awesome seeing seemingly distant cultures being connected like this.
Ukrainians called this entity "Perun". I believe he was the chief deity in the pantheon of pre-Christian slavic tribes that evolved in to Ukrainians. My grandparents came from Ukraine and I believe my grandmother and (for sure) several of my aunts & uncles were scared stiff of thunderstorms. Which only makes sense, as if you lived on the open steppes, thunderstorms were probably the most scary natural phenomenon you would encounter. Unfortunately for my family, they settled first in Alberta, Canada (flat prairie) and then ended up in southern Ontario - thunderstorm capital of Canada... Not good places for anyone scared of thunder!
@@jamesyaworsky8996 Same in Serbia its name for Slavic god of storm.
And in Finnish you have Perkele. Same same but different.
For the Ancient Greeks, I find your Demeter argument interesting as I feel the Titan Gaia (Greek Mother Earth) would be a better candidate for a feminine pre-proto Indo-European deity as Zeus overthrew the Titans, which is a great example of the new culture overthrowing the new.
Then you'll want to watch my next video on Saturday... as it talks about the "giants" and titans...
Gaia was a Protogenoi, not a Titan, although Rhea, consort of Cronus, was a Titan with some overlap in themes.
Much of the prehistoric Greek gods stories weren't added on until later on anyways. So it's not like they worshipped the titans before the gods.
I don’t know enough to really take a position, but I have been struck by the amount of power that was invested in Demeter plus how strong her cult was; I could be persuaded
Some Greek myths were allegories about religious conflicts (the story of Apollo slaying Python is believed to be such a story), but that doesn't mean they all are.
I struggle to find the words to describe it, but there is something endlessly fascinating about the part of anthropology that studies how culture and mythology helped to shape each other. Especially when you get into the pre-history of it all.
I'm only 2 minutes and 40 seconds into this video, but I just had to pause to say, thank GOD (pun intended) this guy isn't yelling for my attention like most other channels! This guy's voice is like a request for me to listen, not a demand. Love that.
Thank you for the kind feedback, it is always good to know people like your presentation style. Thanks again.
Yes, you have the best presentation style on TH-cam. Very soothing and informative. Love it@@Crecganford
I'm new to this channel, and do appreciate the quiet relaxed tone, but the microphone is picking up lots of little sounds from the speaker's mouth, and it's so distracting that I'm giving up about 80% into this.
@@onewaytosavetheday an invitation 😊
I'd consider the Jotnar to be a third family of gods in Norse mythology, since not only are they ancestors to some Aesir, even to Odin, but they are shown to be of equal power to the Aesir and the Vanir, and can also marry and have children with Aesir and Vanir.
Well I hope you watch my next video, released Saturday, which will talk about them… let me know what you think of it :)
@@Crecganford I'm looking forwards to it!
@@Crecganford It was intriguing, I loved it. Thanks for all the videos! They’ve proven quite useful for answering my questions about history.
✝️ LORD JESUS DIED & ROSE AGAIN TO PAY THE DEBT OF UR SIN!
✅By Faith in the sacrifice God has made are we saved from the penalty of sin!
🔵Turn from your sin that leads to death & accept His Gift that leads to eternal Life!
💜We are all sinners that need God. No one can say they are perfect to be able to pay their debt of sin. This is why only God could pay the penalty for us, that is merciful Love!
The Jotun family and the Titan family has a close enough similarity that it's safe to speculate that they may have originated from the same family. If this is the case, then Chaos and Ymir may be the same, Gaia and Jorth are the same, Nott is similar to Nyx, Aegir might be either Oceanus or Poseidon, and there's also the Nine Mothers of Heimdall, possibly being the same as the nine Muses.
I started Uni in Classics and ended up post grad specialising in comparative religion, your work is outstanding and very intertesting indeed. I am so pleased to have found such a well researched and well written channel, thank you for your hard work.
Thank you for watching, I was a late comer to the classics I concentrated on Anglo-Saxon and Old Norse literature, but I am slowly working through them. A fascinating subject. Thank you for your comment to.
My personal favorite pan-Eurasian mythological parallel is that of the goddes of the underworld, and just how many facets she has, yet it all seem to branch off from a single original character. Goddess, living in the land of the dead, usually underground, often depicted with strange, monstrous features that set them apart from the other gods. Ereshkigal, Hel, Allatu, Izanami... The list goes on, and if you dig deep enough, you can even find parallels in Persephone, Hecate, or even Baba Yaga in some stories. I think this character archetype might be one of the most widespread ancient myths, along with the earth mother, flood narrative, and the chaoskampf, and it points at there being some kind of proto-underwold-goddess existing in the distant past, who then got replaced by the gods of death from the later, more patriarchal societies and got relegated to either playing second fiddle to the new male gods, or becoming more of a folklore-character.
Things like this is why I find ancient mythology such an enthralling topic, and it's so fascinating to see how you could start with the Sumerian goddess Inanna, and after several millennia of the telephone game, you end up with the closely analogous Ashtart, Ishtar, Aphrodite, and Isis, the syncretized Hathor, Juno, and Artemis, and even a freaking demon in Kabbalah in the form of Astaroth.
Thank you for watching and such a great comment. I really appreciate it. Thank you.
Holy moly, what a pleasure it's been discovering your channel today. I finished grad school focusing on Ancient Near Eastern and Mesopotamian history, so topics like this one are few and far between on YT when it comes to killing time and thinking outside the box. As you probably know, details on this field can be rather scarce, so its nice to see a deeper dive being conducted as new evidence becomes more readily available. You sir have gained a subscriber- keep up the good work!
Thank you so much for your kind words, they are very much appreciated
Make that 2 new subscribers!! Yeah, you're killing it Sir, absolutely killing it!
@@elizabethpate9486 3 now!
✝️ LORD JESUS DIED & ROSE AGAIN TO PAY THE DEBT OF UR SIN!
✅By Faith in the sacrifice God has made are we saved from the penalty of sin!
🔵Turn from your sin that leads to death & accept His Gift that leads to eternal Life!
💜We are all sinners that need God. No one can say they are perfect to be able to pay their debt of sin. This is why only God could pay the penalty for us, that is merciful Love!
THE ancient OF DAYS. Was from the beginning. Jesus is HIS GLORY IN THE FLESH. COLOSSIANS 1.
Without JESUS NO SINNER WILL BE SAVED.
JESUS IS VICTORY! ✨🙏❤✝💯 🎇May the force of HIS LIVING LOVING freedom be with you. WHERE THE SPIRIT OF THE LORD IS THERE IS LIBERTY! You're Jesus firework! HIS workmanship created unto GoOD works!
Thank you for for all the time and effort you put into this. This kind of academic content doesn't get enough love from the algorithm. But you've got me asking questions about "what it means to be a person" when I really should be sleeping!
Wow, then I have made videos about these older myths, and what they mean. Perhaps even listening to my video reading the Havamal, wise words from 1,500 years ago may also interest you. Thanks for watching and taking the time to comment.
Your voice is incredibly calming but not overly so where im falling asleep, but keeps my interest in this!
Thank you, it is not intentional but I'm pleased it helps you listen.
I’ve been researching and learning about the Demeter/Persephone myth lately too! So this was perfect timing for me, I loved seeing the map and the changes in populations over time. I found that Hecate is tied up in the mythology of Demeter/Persephone as well, she is a three faced goddess, so together the three goddesses cover the maiden, mother, crone trinity. Hecate seems to reach further back in time.
And another thing I discovered was this drink that’s in the Demeter/Persephone poem Kyleon, which is basically flavoured barley water. It’s full of many nutrients and drinking it helps you stay full for longer, I can imagine this drink being an important part of getting through winter for agricultural communities who might run out of food. Fascinating how ancient religious stories are such a good store of knowledge, we’re missing out in our contemporary culture for sure!
That barley water has a fair amount written about it, as it is mentioned in one of the Orphic Hymns, and some suggest it is a source for hallucination which helps keep hunger at bay. I will do a video about this one day. Thank you for watching and your comments, they are appreciated.
@@Crecganford I’m currently reading a book about this topic exactly. It is called the Immortality Key.
@@jessegrove5456 To die before you die... I really enjoyed that book and there are a few others like this. I do have a video on the Mead of Poetry which touches the subject too; th-cam.com/video/moNWKwEBE44/w-d-xo.html
I know the crone is connected to Hecate nowadays, but there are ancient depictions of Kore, Hecate, and Demeter where all 3 are young women. At times, Hecate was replaced with Artemis.
I prefer to view the goddesses through archetypal psychology. I see myself as a modern-day Persephone/Hestia, but maybe that is just Hecate.
@@jessegrove5456 I’ll check that out when I get a chance, thanks for the clue 😊
One of your best videos!!!! And alsoI can´t help but smile every time you talk about a ¨future video¨...Your list must be enormous. Thank you very much, I´m already waiting eagerly for whatever you have in store
Haha, yes, I have about 120 videos in my todo list! Thank you for watching, and for commenting, it means a lot.
probably one of the most informative and interesting videos i‘ve seen in the last few weeks. love the details and the general narration. made me want to read all the books about mythology on my shelf again!
I was looking for a good video on this topic the last two weeks…
Crecganford, I appreciate you so much for what you do, ty
Thank you for watching, and taking the time to comment
I have been looking for a channel like this for so long. You're a great teacher! Thank you for the hard work and time you put in to educate and entertain us!
Thank you for watching, and commenting. It is appreciated and encourages me to put even more effort into making videos.
The origiin of the flood myth according to you is fascinating, explains why many cultures centered around Europe have one in their mythology. I was intrigued a while as to why there wasn't one in Japanese myth, but this explains it.
But it could also be the tsunami following the Santorini vulcano outbreak, reached as far as Israel.
There's a flood myth in Mesoamerican religions (Aztec religion, etc) as well
Search on Battle of 10 King's in India
Your channel is amazing, I'd love to know more about Hekate as She also survived the arrival of the new gods, was honoured by Zeus and allowed to retain Her dominion over the land, sea and sky.
I do briefly touch on her in one of my videos about dogs, and will do more in time. Thank you for your kind words.
I really love seeing echoes of what happened in recent history (Classical to Early Medieval eras) reflected in ancient history: the old gods fill in the gaps of the new faith, and some are too great to be displaced, and so find new niches in the new faith, although perhaps of lesser importance than before. The Old Gods never die.
Indeed! Thank you for watching and commenting, it is appreciated.
"the old gods fill in the gaps of the new faith" - that is a great sentence.
This is by far the most interesting channel I've found in years. Thank you so much for your work
Thank you so much for your kind words.
Still a great pleasure when a new video is showing up. Thank you very much !
Never would have think I would stumble upon this topic. Would definitely use this channel to open up my mind to concepts I had almost never touched.
Subscribed!
Thank you so much for your kind words.
I was just recommended this video. As someone massively into both history and mythology this was an amazing first impression of this channel. I love that stuff like this shows me that no matter how much I know there is always things I just don't know. Thank you so much for the amazing video. I will deffinatly be watching more. I can't wait to learn more and correct the things I had wrong
Thank you for watching and sharing. It is appreciated.
I have heard the theory of the story of the Garden of Eden as a illustration for how peoples changed from living off the resources of the land then moving on, to becoming farmers and agriculturists and living in one place. I personally really like that idea.
That’s interesting, and I will make a video about Eden one day as there is much mythology within it. Thank you for watching and taking the time to comment
Is this a well known theory - or something you heard recently?
That is a really intriguing idea, I'd be interested in how the surrounding context of the early Hashem (pre-judaism proper, the earlier version who was a servant of El) serving as a gardener would play out. The context of the eden story is wrapped in a lot of earlier mythology!
@@macdougdoug It was a theory I first heard about 3 or 4 years ago. I'm sorry I can't remember exactly who was talking about it, but it was during a presentation about biblical archeology that I first heard the theory advanced. I thought it was a very intriguing way to explain early mankind's history of migrations and settlements.
Watched the same documentary several years ago, and was positively amazed, since the idea made perfect sense. Anyway, i think you are talking about the following documentary:
th-cam.com/video/Ns5RRhV_JOI/w-d-xo.html
You - your stories - are fascinating, good sir. You've got an obvious and deeply-rooted familiarity with mythological matters, good sir, something that reveals your knowledge of the old gods and their messy, complicated lives. I'll definitely be back here, time and time again. In fact, I'm going to see what else you've posted. Right now.
Thank you for your kinds words, and for watching. It is appreciated.
had a long talk with some friends about gods, their origin, their "copies", and development of indoeuropean language and religion, and had to share this video with them, love your work!
Thank you so much, I really appreciate your kind words.
This is the first video I’ve watched from this channel and I must say I really enjoy the content. Though I have to make a small correction: When the Indo-European proto-Greeks (otherwise called Minyans) arrived in Greece the Mycenaean civilization wasn’t a thing. The Mycenaeans were actually the result of the proto-Greek populations mixing with the native Neolithic farmers of Greeks. They weren’t a Neolithic people since they were, in part, the descendants of those indo-European migrants. In other words the Mycenaeans didn’t precede the indo-European migration into the Balkans. The Minoans on the other hand were purely indigenous and related to the aforementioned Neolithic farmers of the mainland who were also the primary ancestors of the Mycenaeans
Thank you for taking the time to comment and watching the video. Yes, a combination of bad video editing and being too high level on my part. I will correct this is a future video to explain the Minoans, but there was EFF DNA in Minoans, and so they were influenced in some degree by the Neolithic Farmers.
@@Crecganford They most definitely were since they were direct descendants of the EEF. A video on the Minoans sounds like a great idea. It is curious that Mycenaean society, being fundamentally an indo-European society, retained many more aspects of pre-Greek religion than PIE religion while also introducing certain new deities and customs. Perhaps the most important deities in pre-Greek religion, even more so than Demeter (or Potnia as she was called), were Eileithyia and Poseidon/Enesidaon
it makes all a lot more sense once we posit multiple Indo-European migrations from the steppe in the span of millennia.
The Mycenaeans also took many aspects of the Minoan culture into their own. The art, gods, culture, clothing. My guess is after the minoan civilization fell the minoan people joined the Mycenaeans.
The proto-greeks, mycenaens, and minoans shared most of the same dna as all recent studies have shown.
Decades ago, I read "The Ancient City" by Fustel de Coulanges. What I retained from that book was the understanding that the Greeks and the Romans had two parallel religions, the religion of Olympus and the religion of the hearth/ancestors. I understood that the hearth/ancestor religion pre-dated the Olympian religion. Perhaps you could do a video on "The Ancient City"?
That was the most interesting book! I need to get another copy.
I like the idea.
I loved that book
Yes the worship of ancestors was common in Indo-European cultures before the Greeks or the Romans.
@@nastasedr How do you know that?
Different people, different regions, different beliefs and Gods!
It's refreshing to watch YT content that comes from the realm of academic research. While I enjoy some of the more fantastical channels that deal with our history, it's always nice to keep my feet planted in more probable realities.
I was always wondering about all the myths of old gods vs new gods, not only in Norse mythology but also in Greek like Olympians versus Titans. Also it always seems like they have problems in Mythology to decide whether those old gods like Demeter or Veles in Slavic mythology, are male or female. Sometimes they are male and sometimes female. What if the old gods of Neolithic farmers had no gender and were simply spirits and because of that the proto-indo Europeans were confused about the gender of the old gods?
Thank you for watching, and taking the time to comment. You may be happy to hear my next video, out on Saturday, will talk about the who the "giants" (aka Titans) really were. I think you may find that interesting.
@@Crecganford thank you for your reply. I am looking forward to your next video. You have really interesting and educational content.
@@Crecganford I think that the myth of the Titans were some of the ancient I.E gods that was not compatible with the new sedentary agro lifestyle. While the older PIE gods characteristics were assimilated in the new pantheon with few exceptions like Demeter or Hekate who retained their identity while others like Pandora was demonized or just erased.
Just discovered your channel today. I work from home and listen to YT while working, usually history or mythology or an audiobook. Your videos will fit right in :)
Thank you for your kind words. I do try and respond to most comments, and so if you have any questions please ask :)
Fantastic work. It held my attention throughout the entire video with a lot of assertions that I'm sure took you quite a while to flesh out, but made absolute sense when superimposed over the migration events in Europe's prehistory. Well done.
Thank you
@@Crecganford Absolutely. Any and all praise given to your works are, in my humble opinion, well deserved. Here in the US, I had to pay about $20,000 per semester to be able to access information like yours, which you give away for free. Thank you so much for all your time well spent and hard work dutifully performed...
When reading about Mesopotamian mythology, I started to feel that their primeval god Apsu was the same as the Egyptian primeval god Nun, and the Greek primeval god Tartaros, and they were originally something like benevolent gods of upheaval, but got re-imagined as either demonic figures or otherworldly places (hinting at how they were originally characterized) due to some cultural shift (urbanization?), with their positive traits given to other gods.
in the Greek mythology, it seems like the titans represent more naturalistic qualities but the Olympians represent more human ideals. I wonder if it's similar in other traditions.
@@stein1919 as a Norse pagan(ik I'm too lazy to change my name) it kinda is, we have primordial titan like beings that represents more primal forces/environments that then created and were displaced by one or more races (Asir, Vanir, and possibly jotunn thou that's debated) of more human like deities.
@@DIrtyTwentiesJay awesome, thanks.
Throughout time the gods of the conquered become the demons of the conquerors.
The first form of the Bible was written in 325BC, 80 years before and Antikythera mechanism, and was called the Vaticanus Graecus, Son of the Devine Serpent, a reference to Fomalhaut, which is shaped like the all seeing eye, in Aquarius, the sign associated with John the Baptist, who was a Setian, the root word of Satan. Just as israel is the Phoenician word for Saturn, or El, Fruit of Isis and Ra.
In the Second Century AD Astrologer Vettori Valentinus used the Vaticanus Graecus to construct a lunar zodiac of 13 months, this correlates to the 18.6/ 19 year Metonic Calendar, found in the earliest known ancient temples, the Bible, Antikythera mechanism, New Grange and the Bru na Boinne, the Chaldeans, Egyptians, Assyrians, Celts, Phoenicians, and inscribed into the Golden Enoch Horns of the Magi, the Eunuch Druid Priests of Cybel, or Kythera, the "Great Mother", (who also has 216 names) in Germany and France. A Druid took 19 years to train, and the Phoenix was associated with 19 flames.
TLDR; the ancient metric system of time used by the builders of the Megalithic sites all over the world directly correlates to the Astrological Zodiac and allows for the surveying of the entire globe.
It's worth noting our current system has 8,640 seconds in a day, just as the sun is 864,000 miles wide. Enoch also wrote 36,525 scrolls, which is 365.25 times 100, the Egyptian number of perfection, which allowed them to calculate things to the second decimal place. The Great Pyramid is a Calendar, based on the Metonic Cycle and the Zodiac, hence the association of Osiris with Orion, and Pleiades Isis, atop the back of Taurus, just as the Phoenician Princess Europa, who rode the Bull. The entire Mediterranean region was also mapped out according to key constellations, marked by these Megalithic structures, which themselves encode these numbers
The Byblos Baal, or Book of Baal is the Phoenician Almanac, a coded book of Astrological cycles used by the Priest Class of Egypt; the Phoenicians, to navigate the oceans. Phoenicians, Celts, Assyrians, Chaldeans, Egyptians and Jews all celebrated their New Year in September, the 7th month, the Sunsign of Ophiuchus, the Serpent Bearer, associated with the healing Gods, and marked by the first New Moon in the 7th month after the start of the Zodiac in Easter, when Ophiuchus is the East Star. In September the East star is Orion, aka Osiris, aka Set, Lord of the Dead. Hence the Aleph, and the Zayim, Alpha and Omega. It's also the Birthday of Jesus, and when he said he would return, at the end of the Age. It's reversed to keep the code secret, and written in metaphor so no one could know what was contained therein.
It's an Enigma Code, literally.
The Metonic cycle, in chronology, is a period of 19 years in which there are 235 lunations, or synodic months, after which the Moon's phases recur on the same days of the solar year, or year of the seasons. The cycle was discovered by Meton (fl. 432 bc), an Athenian astronomer.
The Pyramid is also 230 metres square, or 235 Megalithic Yards.
En-men-dur-ana (also Emmeduranki) of Sippar was an ancient Sumerian king, whose name appears in the Sumerian King List as the seventh pre-dynastic king of Sumer. He was said to have reigned for 43,200 years
His name means "chief of the powers of Dur-an-ki", while "Dur-an-ki" in turn means "the meeting-place of heaven and earth" (literally "bond of above and below") Arc of the Covenant
There are also 86,400 seconds in a 24 hr day. 24 minutes is 1440 seconds, times 100 gives us 144,000
A list of ten kings was composed in Greece c. 280 BC by the Babylonian priest Berossos, and their reign totals 432,000 years. In the Icelandic Poetic Edda it is said that there are 540 doors in Odin's heavenly hall of warriors
Five hundred doors and forty there are
I ween in Valhalls walls;
Eight hundred fighters through each door fare
Where to war the Wolf they go.
The war with the Wolf was the recurrent battle of the gods and anti-gods at the end of each cosmic round. Here we have 540 x 800 = 432,000. In the Mahabharata and Puranic texts, the cosmic cycle of four world ages numbers 12,000 divine years, one year corresponding to 360 human years for a total of 12,000 x 360 = 4,320,000 human years. This is broken down into yugas as follows:
Kali = 432,000 years or 1200 x 360
Dwarpa = 864,000 years or 1200 x 360 x 2
Treta = 1,296,000 years or 1200 x 360 x 3
Satya = 1,728,000 years or 1200 x 360 x 4
The number 432,000 has been found in Europe (1100 AD), India( very ancient, and 400 BC), Mesopotamia (c 300 BC)in reference to a cosmic eon.
At the moment of the Spring equinox (March 21) the heavens are never quite in the same position they were the year before, since there is an annual lag of 50 seconds which in the course of 72 years amounts to 1 degree (50" x 72 = 3600" = 60' = 1 degree) and in 2160 years amounts to 30 degrees or one sign of the zodiac.
For instance, today the sun stands in Aquarius at the Spring equinox, in 1976 the sun stood in Pisces and in the time of Christ it was in Aries. This slippage is known as the precession of the equinox. Copernicus in 1526 AD calculated this same figure. We note also that the lag is 50 seconds/year or 1 degree in 72 years, 30 degrees in 2160 years, 360 degrees in 25,920 years or one complete cycle of the zodiac. But 25,920 divided by 60 gives 432. The ancient Sumerian calendar had five-day weeks or 72 x 5 = 360 days per year. But 360 x 72 = 25,920.
The integer 1200 represents the sum of the years in India for a cosmic cycle. Now
1200 x 201 = 241,200
1200 x 380 = 456,000
1200 x 360 = 432,000
These numbers correspond to the Sumerian tablet list of ten kings who ruled for a total of 456,00 years, a second tablet which lists only eight of these kings with a total of 241,200 years, and Berossos' list.
The Book of Genesis lists ten patriarchs from Adam to Noah and the Flood totalling 1656 years. In the Jewish calendar one year is 365 days. In 23 years plus 5 leap year days we have 8400 days or 1200 seven-day weeks. If we multiply 1200 x 72 we get 86,400 or the number of Jewish seven-day weeks in 1656 (23 x 72) years. Since the Babylonian calendar year was composed of 72 five-day weeks, then in 432,000 days there are 86,400 Babylonian five-day weeks. Then in 432,000 days there are 86,400 Babylonian five-day weeks (432,000/5). Thus the Bible concurs with the other lists as well.
The earth's axis wobble that causes the precession of the equinoxes is given as 25,920 years. Divided by the ancient number called "soss," 60, which was used in calculations, results in 432.
The Greek Ages also bear a close correspondence to the four Yugas of the Hindus: Krita-Yuga, Treta-Yuga, Dvapara-Yuga, and Kali-Yuga. Their method of calculation is described by Ullamudeian as follows:
"In each of the 12 signs there are 1800 minutes; multiply this number by 12 you have 21600; e.g. 1800 X 12=21600. Multiply this 21600 by 80 and it will give 1,728,000, which is the duration of the first age, called Krita-Yuga."
If the same number be multiplied by 60, it will give 1,296,000, the years of the second age, Treta-Yuga. The same number multiplied by 40 gives 864,000, the length of the third age, Dvapara-Yuga. The same multiplied by 20 gives 432,000, the fourth age, Kali-Yuga." (It will be noted that these multipliers decrease in inverse ratio to the Pythagorean tetractys: 1, 2, 3, and 4.)
The Essenes studied the Mysteries of Pythagoras.
His name means Heart (Bel) of the Serpent.
The cycle of the Phoenix encodes the astrological calendar by which they removed 3 days every 630 years. This was expressed in a Pythagorean Triangle of Dimensions 216 by 630 by 666.
6 x 6 x 6 is 216, there are 2160 years in an astrological age, and the Moon is 2160 miles in diameter. The solar metonic calendar using 60 6 day weeks produces 1 extra day every 216 years. There are also 216 Megalithic seconds in a day, and 216 letters in the name of God
Thanks for this great video, as usual. On the Greek Myceneans, however, I always thought (as a non-specialist) these were not merely influenced by Indoeuropenas, but they *were* the Indoeuropean conquerors of Greece (or something like that). Indeed, they spoke Greek, which is an indoeuropean language, and as testified by writings in linear B. These are the people of the Iliad, fighting with chariots and so on. So the mycenean culture did not merge with the indoeuropean, but is the result of merging.
Yes, a few noticed I said Mycenaean as opposed to Minoan, which I did say but edited out when I shrunk the video… I will correct this formally when I next make a video on the subject. Thanks for noticing :)
@@Crecganford Your content is great on mythology. I hope TH-cam algorithm catches your channel.
I am SO glad one of your videos popped up in my suggestions , I have subscribed and want to thank you for sharing your knowledge with us , it’s fascinating .
Thank you for watching, and taking the time to leave such a kind comment. Thank you
I like that Dionysus was also originally the death/underworld God like Hades. A male god that is associated with death and vegitation, or the dying god can be seen in figures like Osiris and Dimuzid. Inanna and Persephone are also very similar godesses, decending into the underworld and making their way out. It's so awesome to find links like this.
I will also say in a lot of Moon deities the female are associated with a full moon (pregnancy) whereas male gods are often associated with the crescent moon which symbolises a bull's horns.
I wonder why the earliest version of a PIE sun god were female or associated with feminine energy? And then later became male in descendant cultures?
My guess is perhaps PIE speakers picked up on the sun being important for plant growth, so associated growth/life with feminine energy. Cuz women give birth and what not. Then other cultures considered it a masculine energy for different reasons, maybe strength and vitality or something.
Something similar occurred with Taino of the Caribbean. They personified the sun and it's spirit/major ancestral spirit as Yucahu (literally, breath/spirit of yuca). Yuca was their staple crop, so they attributed it's growth to Yucahu, who provided the sun's rays. Kinda interesting cuz they were observing photosynthesis, and then used the best of their knowledge at the time to explain it.
@@Joyride37 I don't know, but there are older sun god's too. Interestingly the mesopotamian moon god Arma had two children: Utu (sun) and Inanna (morning star) which is an interesting take considering the sun and moon are usually a coupled pair.
Maybe women coopted the moon as a moon goddess when they realized that they could track their menses to the phases of the moon. They told stories if the moon goddess to both their male and female children and soon enough those boys grew up to be men who believed in the moon goddess?
Thats why in Romanian language God...we call DUMNEZEU ❤=Dumized ❤=ZAMOXLES the Supreme God of Getes...Getae..GETI ❤
The interesting thing is that some mythologies have connections that are as far as Iberia to Japan or Iran to Mexico. There are theories suggesting that there may be more to this then people moving around, that humans do really have some inherent moral beliefs or stories.
I’m so glad I found your channel! Prehistoric human religion and culture is one of my favorite things.
Thank you for watching, and taking the time to write a comment. It is appreciated.
The world needs more pages like this. Thanks for why you do 💯
And thank you for watching, and taking the time to comment.
I just found your channel by accident and now I can’t stop watching your videos…..excellent and educational work you put into your content….new subscriber! 🦌🌲🦅
Thank you! And thank you for taking the time to comment too :)
Thank you for sharing your amazing research. I loved the video, you are a true gem.
Thank you for watching, and taking the time to comment. It is appreciated.
I've been looking for a video on *exactly* this for a very long time. Good on the algorithm, and thanks for making this video sir!
And thank you for watching it.
Id love to see a video like this about the Ancient Egyptian Pantheon and how it evolved over time
Yes, this is something I’m working on, but it is a hugely complicated topic and will be some months away.
You’re wrong about something (respectfully). Proto Greek speakers migrated in to Greece much earlier and mixed with the farmers to form the Mycenaean culture of the late Bronze Age. there was a Greek dark age and then the classical Greek age emerged. The classical Greeks were the direct genetic descendants of the Mycenaeans exactly. the mixing you’re talking about happened much earlier. The Mycenaean pantheon was Indo European. The most recent genetic evidence suggests exactly that. We assumed otherwise in The past because classical Greek writers told of a cultural invasion later on, but we have since disproven this through genetic testing. But yes the Minoans of Crete were of the farmer lineage. But not the Mycenaeans. When Linear B was deciphered it was proven to be Proto Greek as well. (linear b being the Mycenaean alphabet).
Actually, the Classical Greeks are quite distant from the Mycenaeans, as genetic studies state. The classical Greeks were a mixture of Mycenaean and northern greek populations who were quite distant.
I agree, Minoans worshipped cow headed god. Sound proto indo-european to me. Manus and Yemi story evolved
Didnt the proto greeks came into greece after the mycenaeans ?
To be honest ancient Near Eastern and European peoples were very similar to one another (denser male beard and lack of epicanthus) and also the ancient Central Asians (all these ancients termed "West Eurasians" also have a large contribution to South Asian peoples... Central Asia was mostly West Eurasian for it’s history).
@@king_halcyon Well, we do not know much about the populations in Eurasia since 80,000 years ago, but Eurasian populations could be quite distant.
i like how my studies online about philosophy or Anthropology of Religion has led me straight into social studies class again, i subbed and hope you keep up the great work!
Thank you very much, that is appreciated. Feel free to ask questions and I'll answer where I can.
Another awesome Crecganford video... I've been researching PIE invasions/migrations vs. earlier, non-patriarchal belief systems and your work fills in a lot of gaps. Please keep 'em coming.
And please keep watching them!
what a marvellous channel to come across. Really enjoying the video and yes I would certainly love to watch further exploration on these early early time periods. Thank you so much for this thoughtful content.
Thank you so much for watching and taking the time to leave such a nice comment.
Could have continued watching for hours, awesome video man!
This is so fascinating! I'd love a video on the early goddesses you mentioned and their five aspects.
Thank you for watching
This channel is so interesting, and I love this video. You discussion about two sets of pantheon gods reminds me of when I was studying ancient Egyptian theology, it always seemed to me that there was an initial set of supreme gods such as Nun and Ptah which later became surpassed by the Ra-Osiris-Horus trinity.
Yes, and I will mention that briefly in the next video :) Thank you for watching and taking the time to comment
You are a gift! I can't get enough of these videos!
Thank you for your kind words.
My personal favorite theory as to why we stopped moving is that temples came first as essentially old folks homes. From there the elders could develop farming, administration, and wisdom while younger family members could drop off meat as they passed through as a sort of home base. It makes more sense than suddenly stopping and waiting for a few years until plants were propagated that could deliver enough energy to live off.
That's an interesting thought.
I could see many ways that your idea could be supported. For example, humans propagate in an atypical manner that allows for large number of progeny per mother despite the high state of dependency and long time to mature of human infants. Evolutionary biology explains this unusual fecundity in which humans continue to bear children while still raising others, by the presence of grandparents. The longer human lifespan allows non fertile individuals the opportunity to participate in child rearing and that labor is a force multiplier for the reproductive individuals that lets them stay busy with the survival of the species.
Translating how that sociobiology would manifest in a culture it's not difficult to envision a house of elders being not only a childcare center but also a repository of wisdom. Thank you for the intriguing idea.
Yes, and no more. Like your entire video, @@Crecganford
@@urbandiscount??
What I find interesting are the etymologies of the names of Demeter of Poseidon. Older Greek versions of their names are Damater and Poseidaon/ Potedawon. Both with the proto-Greek word *Da, meaning 'Earth'. So their names meaning "Earth-mother" and "Husband of the Earth". I wonder if in Mycenean times there used to be a deeper connection between the two than what is shown by later Greek mythology.
It makes sense for a God of the Earth to be married to a God of the Sea. And then they have a daughter is basically the God of Agriculture.
Poseidon actually means "Master of the Earth". He was also called Ennosigaeos "Earth-shaker" (Mycenean E-ne-si-da-o-ne), because earthquakes were attributed to him.
@@judasiscariot6133 If Poseidon was married to an Earth god, the term "Earth-shaker" is full of innuendo. XD
@@Badficwriter Definitely gives a different way to look at earthquakes lmao. Poseidon be clapping those cheeks :P
Great video, I'm looking forward to watching the 'at another time ' videos.
It's interesting to note that civilized people often take the position that people made animals into equivalent of people. When it's more likely that hunter gatherers, akin to American indians saw it as the opposite. That men were like all other living things, just trying to get by in a tough world.
So... Like the sacrifice virgins thing, very opposite.
I don't know. But most of the dieties of the original native American pantheon seem to be animals, mostly real ones that they would have seen in real life. It is likly that this was once true all over the place.
@@milascave2 It's like the modern attitude that people had myths to explain natural phenomenon. We assume that because that's how we were taught to think in school. Myth is not just how to explain natural phenomenon, but much much more complex. Same with our understanding of older religions, especially the early shamanic. Instead of asking people who still live in these circumstances we take the word of a college professor or academic who doesn't understand the world in which these people lived, and some still live.
We fall into that trap of assuming everyone thinks the way we do, but that's far from true.
@@algernoncalydon3430 yes indigenous world views and beliefs across the world all share a common idea that humans are part of nature, that the animals and trees are our brothers and sisters, that everything is connected. Considering the strides we've made in understanding evolutionary biology and astrophysics, their world view is arguably the most accurate. We literally are connected to everything by being made up of the remnants of stars, and all life on earth being descended from a single cell millions of years ago. Science and spiritually meet at last! haha
@@Joyride37 this guy hit the ringer, it's literally everything. We had a supreme creator who started the universe, or the great move up towards the surface world, basically from the 5 worlds below. In these 5 worlds the gods finish "god's" creation. There are two classes of people, the holy people and earth people.
Thanks for the time delving into this. You brushed over The Flood story though rather quickly. Geophysicists Ryan & Pitman have done an excellent physical detailing of the flooding of the Mediterranean Sea from the Atlantic, which also changed the Black Sea from fresh to salt water. 7600 years ago or so. People were living all along these basins and were uprooted in a single generation. Pottery styles, building styles & materials carried with them. Stands to follow their gods did too.
The flood story is not so important to this video, however I will cover it in detail in the next few months, including the earliest linguistic traces we have of it, so far far older than Gilgamesh.
You have such a great voice for narration! So relaxing and honestly just your voice alone makes you sound so smart & professional. Thanks for the content, I’ve learned a lot from your Channel.
Thank you for your kind words.
That was really interesting, thank you. I'm not religious myself, but do have a respect for religions and what they can teach us. The history and lineage of religious beliefs fascinates me.
This video came up on my feed, and this kind of study is right up my street. You've a new subscriber and I'll certainly be checking out some of your other videos. Cheers. Hope you stay safe and well, too.
Thank you, I also try and reply to as many comments as I can, and so if you have any questions don't be afraid to ask in the comments :)
@@Crecganford Thank you for the reply. I shall keep that in mind!👍
@@flamingdonut9456 it’s so interesting why humanity had developed the capacity to tell these good/nice stories and traditions, and developed long distance trading when it’s kinda unneeded for just a hunter/gatherer. Looks like abundance of resources and dependence of mothers on society may have selected the greatest intelligence possible, mainly expanding in reasoning power, memory power, communication/sociability and of course technology.
Awesome video-it synthesizes a number of things I’d known about the pre-proto-IE but hadn’t put together, so thank you! Demeter has long been one of my favorite goddesses, and you make a great case for her being pre-IE.
I’m sure you have your hands full managing all the languages you work with, so I thought I’d mention the proper pronunciation of Demeter’s name. In Δεμήτερ, the ε is short and the ή is long-so, in modern English, it’s deh-MEE-ter. (If you were an ancient Greek, it’d be closer to deh-MAY-tare.) The emphasis has to be on the second syllable.
Enjoying your videos so much. Thanks for your work!
Thank you for watching and the feedback, I shall remember that.
Nicely produced. nice pace and cadence, nice use of graphics which does a great job of making it a very enjoyable lecture. Thank you.
Thank you so much for watching and your kind words.
We Hindus in India still worship some of these Gods. A tradition unbreakable since time immemorial and we will continue to do so. Nature is God.
Oh god. Another tiresome RSS troll. Yawn!
@@arkamukhopadhyay9111 what exactly the Point where he seemed to troll you ????😂😂
@@dreamsofadaffodil650 he assumes everybody is always trolling him
@@arkamukhopadhyay9111 The world does not revolve around you and your political hatred buddy
Indeed. Glory to nature, glory to God.
I just found your channel. For me, this area of study acts like a much needed bridge between the chronological ancient history I find so interesting, and the topical history that's often a matter of inferences due to the lack of written sources from those prehistory periods. No doubt you're aware that inference can be handicapped with the baggage of biases. So, to see an approach which appears to use deduction and critical thinking in its analysis method, looks to be one which has a better chance of avoiding modern cultural biases from the researcher's inferences, and by extension, their findings.
You likely know this as well. In another example of mythological inheritance which has survived into the gardening world of today, there is a period of time each year some call the "Persephone Days"; when the amount of available sunlight drops below 10 hrs per day. This is usually considered the threshold below which the amount of available sunlight is too little to help plant growth in any effective way. Oh, and you got a new sub. Hello!
When I studied anthropology, as part of my post-grad studies,I too, looked at this aspect, my research was never published, I didn't have the benefit of DNA to support me, and relied heavily on philology,, and archaeological evidence that was available, some 50 yearrs ago, what I find pleasing,and a tad flattering, is that my research, is being borne out and supported by modern research, which has far greater scientific foundation, than I could have dreamt of at the time of my initial research. So I take this opportunity to thank you for this upload, and look forward to hearing more from your good self.
That sounds very fascinating. Must feel good for you to see your research make sense
At 18:15 Ultimately, Homer’s epic: The Illiad about The Trojan War was likely based on a collection of oral traditions that went back to The Fall of The Bronze Age in 1200 B.C.E., a “dark ages” from the perspective of Classical Greeks looking back on their ancestors, and their enemies. So, maybe you could look at that narrative as a way to preserve that history for both themselves and the invading Indo - European cultures.
It seems that even Troy can be identified from written literature in the archaeological record because some cuneiform tablets from 1280 B.C.E. were found in which a king of Wilusa was complaining to a Hittite king about a lack of assistance he wasn’t sending. How could Wilusa be Troy? Well the Pre-Classical Greeks probably dropped the pronunciation of the w, thus Wilusa becames Illium (Greek for Troy), and Homer calls it The Illiad (‘The story of Troy’).
Very interesting! Thanks for sharing this!
It's worth noting that the name "Homer" is itself speculated to be derived from an old grecian work for "poet" or "chronicler" or the sort.
@@absalomdraconis Along those lines it’s been said in some translations that Arthur is a title a person in the form of King Arthur. So, the matter regarding Homer wouldn’t surprise me.
Troy was damaged or destroyed at least twice around the 13th century BCE, and it's likely one or both of these destructions would go on to (partially) inspire the Epic Cycle, being combined with older, half-remembered Indo-European tales and mythic structures - but at this point, both sides of the conflict (Achaean/Myceneans and Trojans/Luwians) were pretty firmly Indo-European. I think it's doubtful that either the Myceneans or the Dark Age / Archaic Greeks (or even the Trojans, for that matter) would have had cultural memories reaching far enough back (1000+ years at the least) for them to recognise or even conceptualise this shift.
I suppose it's poetic in a way to read the Iliad as recording the battle for and against Proto Indo-European cultures - and it may be true that some pre-IE culture lingers in the recesses of the text - but if there is a hidden history here, it isn't one which was included at all consciously.
Another copy of genesis
Genesis chapter 1
There were once two very intelligent animals
God admired their tenacity and intuition
he had guided them to the oasis that they now shared
God called them
Ari and Kea
These were the first two people
A beautiful ancestor of womankind
And the handsome predecessor of all mankind
they themselves were not all unalike from the creatures of the earth before they
A species of early man now known as Australopithecus Afarensis
He would see her picking fruits and tending to plants and he quietly admired her presence and passion, she would see him hunting with purpose and respect
She admired his stoicism and rationale
Overtime the male and female grew more and more comfortable with each other
They would leave gifts for one another
It gave them great pleasure to provide for the other
The Woman would conceive a way to record all the gifts that the hunter had left for her each day
She developed a simple counting system that began with one
I,II,III,IV,V,VI,VII,VIII,VIII,IX,X
these numerals the foundation of modern mathematics
She continued until she had counted to 21
Each gift carried his blessings unto her
she was very comfortable with the man she decided to make the first physical contact as she wasn’t sure whether or not the man would
She opened up her arms
And he took her embrace
It was good
This gave them a feeling the woman would call joy
She counted one more gift and marked it as it was XII
Chapter 2
Ari would show Kea the fruits that she had picked climbing the tallest of trees
And he would share with her the meat that he had honorably hunted for in the field that once separated them
They began to make noises with their mouths that would be used to entertain, explain themselves and quarrel amongst themselves
Often considering the sounds they came up with quite amusing
This is how the first Woman invented the first language, she had done so to describe all that she would see in the garden of Eden
And she shared her discovery with who she felt was very special as she felt he had been reason for the discovery
Kea and Ari could now speak to each other
It was a simpler language it illustrated the nature, the animals, and each other
It was a very sweet language and they made many words
Ari began to make a collection of shapes corresponding to the different sounds their mouths could make
She would call them letters
The first alphabet Was 20 letters and contained
A
B
D
F
G
I
J
K
L
N
O
P
Q
R
S
T
V
X
Y
Z
They discovered one could arrange these letters to make meaningful words, now they could better express the emotion and character of all that they laid eyes on
there would soon be a word for all that was in the garden of Eden
When they ran out of plants and animals to describe that the two people realized they hadnt yet made words for themselves yet
She wrote a new letter into the dirt that she felt represented her, her husband would do the same, he scribbled The letter M and she came up with the letter VV
He took her hand into his, looked lovingly into her eyes and told her what he was
”I am man”
she smiled and declared
“I am woman”
Now they had a word to describe
All the Things that they loved
The alphabet now had 22 letters
Great video and analysis of Demeter/Persphone myths. I never realized that the seeds Persephone eats must be buried in the earth (her trip underground) to grow and sprout (when she returns to the above world). There is no trick keeping her in Hades' realm; she has to go there for the seeds to germinate and spout.
This is going to be a good one! Love this channel’s videos, always a must watch!
Thank you for watching, and taking the time to comment :)
great video. especially the beginning with the maps of time progression.
Thank you for watching, and commenting. The map data literally is a month old, and so I felt it a good way to get that information out there. I’m pleased you enjoyed it all.
I'm glad the algorithm brought me to this channel. It's going to be great seeing you blow up. Fascinating stuff, my guy.
Thank you for your kind words, and for watching.
My guess for some mesolithic or paleolithic gods would be Aurochs (extinct giant bull) and the venus goddess, probably representing fertility/childbirth of which many statuettes were found dating to even paleolithic times. Of course they had many animistic beliefs and probably worshipped or believed were divine all things found in nature (water, sky, sun, moon, trees, other animals, and even their own ancestors).
Oh finally. It's so incredibly difficult to find reliable information on this. Usually religious lineage only traces back to the proto Indo European pantheon, but these gods have origins across the world that date even further back
Thank you for watching
Very interesting and very well presented. Style of presenting is quite unique and engaging with just the right amount of gravitas and humour.
Thank you
Would've been interesting to have some insight on basque mythology !
Yes indeed. I kept thinking of them and their non Indo-european language.
Yes please.
That would be amazing
I have some cool information on that. My paternal side of the family is Basque and I have listened to my elders since the 70'a about some of the older rural lore and stories. The channel owner can contact me to open up a discussion if he is interested.
Most of that was probably destroyed by Christianity.
The reverse investigation is an incredible reference for fantasy or fiction writers in general for the process of engineering gods for a ppl one is writing or creating. This is amazing, thank you for sharing
Underrated channel, dunno how this was your first vid I’ve had recommended - better late than never, algorithm!
Thank you for finding the channel and watching, it is much appreciated.
What a great video - Glad to see the references to academic papers. Thank you for making these high effort pieces, glad the algorithm pointed me your way
And thank you for watching and noticing I reference material, most miss that.
Thor and Odin are not duplications. Odin has aspect of being associated with wisdom and search for knowledge, while Thor gets associated with heroic warrior archetype.
Sunrise sparkle - Thor is the son of Odin(Woden). And the same Father/son relationship can be seen in Egypt (Osirus/Horus) and other pantheon's in Persia and Assyria. Fascinating stuff.
Incredibly dense and incredibly interesting. Thank you very much for your effort and the great knowledge!
And thank you for watching.
Very interesting vid, the graphs and maps were helpful. PIE studies are always fascinating because they essentially form the gritty origin stories of so many of the myths that still bear the weight of the religious beliefs of billions, even today. They sort of intrinsically perform the work that Nietzsche famously spoke of: They "kill God", replacing myths with stories whose origins and patterns are fundamentally _knowable,_ just like the rest of the universe
Yes, they do that. They allow evidence that most religions are but myth… and I’m pleased you like the video, and thanks for taking the time to comment on things :)
@@Crecganford commonality implies myth?
@@silencemeviolateme6076 The evidence of the process in which the gods’ stories are created and changed implies myth.
@gabrielamora6265 the plum pudding model of the atom was incorrect, but atoms aren't myth. There is always new evidence.
Fascinating stuff!
I'm glad you mentioned the Norse pantheon at the end, as I was thinking of the Æsir/Vanir split the whole time.
I always found it interesting as a kid, reading the Norse myths (in Iceland we all read this in school) who these mysterious Vanir were, because clearly the Æsir were the "main" gods, yet somehow there was this rival/ally group of other gods.
My feeling is you allude to Odin as possible an even older god, I might be wrong, but I've heard theories about Odin's origin being from the hunter gatherer Sami peoples and related groups, as this sort of shaman-god.
Regardless, great stuff, made a subscriber out of me! Thanks.
Yes, thank you! Odin is very complicated with many influences to create the god we know in Old Norse myths. Most scholars consider he is influenced from the Indic Varuna, to the Roman Mercury, the Proto Indo-European Manu, and the Pre-Proto Indo-European spirits of death which took the form of Wild Hunt. I’ve made a couple of videos touching on some of these ideas if you’re interested in watching them. Thanks again for your support and taking the time to comment.
@@Crecganford Perun and Perkunas is often associated with the Indo-European sky father Perkwunos. Also, the cult of Lugus from where in the later medieval Irish legends of Lugh Lamfhada or the long-arm "as he is a spear wielding god" may have influence the cult of Woþanaz as they both became spear wielding gods. The Fomoire vs the Tuatha De Danann from Irish myth, The Titans vs The Olympians from Hellenic myth, the Æsir vs the Vanir from Norse myth, are all identical. Even Perun vs the Żmija is similar in Slavic myth. When Svarog was born from the Cosmic Egg, there are numerous parallels with the Greek Orphic mystery tradition of Phanes Protogonos being born from the Cosmic Egg. Svarog is also similar with Saturnus or Chronos where Perun takes over the supreme god, just as Zeus or Jupiter did. The Irish myth Balor the one eyed is similar to the Hellenic myth of the Cyclops.
@@thebrownhound1343 Yes, exactly, and I will get to all those in future videos :)
I keep coming back to this video. It heavily influenced my recent thoughts about deities and religion in ancient Europe. I'm glad you mentioned both the eldest Olympian transplants and also the Vanir. All great examples.
When looking to Greece and Olympus, I see the oldest guises on the faces of:
APHRODITE (A Near East transplant in that Inanna/Ishtar/Astarte archetype, all of whom predated Greek culture, also in the mythos described as older than the Olympians)
DEMETER and PERSEPHONE (Eleisis and so much more!)
DIONYSUS (Who may have once also been the Underworld god Zagreus before taking an Indo-Iranian sabbatical and coming back round again)
HECATE (An Anatolian émigré, and likely a very early one who later was one of the LEAST Olympian of the Greek gods yet still highly independent and quite highly revered)
POSEIDON (Likely the original Demeter's consort, before he was lord of the sea, thus his Chthonic roots in earthquakes and horses)
and PAN (whose role likely later split into both him and Hermes)
The other Olympians all seem to have far more classic Indo-European roles: Archery, domesticity, light, music and other culture, order vs. chaos, paternalism, philosophy, prophecy, scheming long-suffering wives, sky fathers, strategy, technology, war. Though ARTEMIS may also hint at something older, as she's quite unlike her twin APOLLO, who's as Indo-European as it gets. By the latter days of Mycenae, we have ZEUS and HERA, but as comparative youngsters. It's telling that he's the youngest of the original six Olympians.
Learning that there were gods honored in Mycenae who were later forgotten by the days of Classical Greece is fascinating. Why didn't they make it, but those above seem to have? Popularity, influence, being gods of the common folk, their priesthoods' power in society? Probably all of those. What regular folk hold dear will always find a way to remain even with the influx of other cultures, class struggles, religious friction and so much more.
Thank you again for all the food for thought!
This hits right where my interests are at the moment. Ancient peoples, languages, and cultures and their evolutions and movements.
Thank you for watching, and taking the time to comment. I hope you find more videos here that interest you.
the moment he said grab a cup of tea, i already holding one, i subscribed
Thank you!
Just found you and about to perservativly devour everything you've ever posted. Just enjoyed this with my 86 year old grandpa. Thanks for the wonderful memory you helped make.
I know the religion of Europa, some sort of female bull riding goddess, was insanely popular in early Europe, which is where we get the word "Europe" from. But I could not find any details around who Europa was or what she was known for. She's just depicted riding atop a bull that's apparently running away with her. I suspect she must've been a fertility symbol but not sure how she came to be universally accepted among nearly all ancient Europeans.
Most academics agree she is probably of Phoenician origin, but I do not know much else about her off the top of my head. Although I would assume she is several thousand years old. I will do a little reading, and if interesting enough I’ll make a video about her :) Thanks for watching and taking the time to comment.
The bull was Zeus, her consort. The bull symbolises the age of Taurus.
Hestia and Hecate are two goddesses in the Greek pantheon that would make a great study with regard to this aspect of their origins and ultimate sidelining.
This is my new favorite channel. It reminds me of my favorite book "guns germs and steel" by Jared Diamond. Great work friend!
Thank you for your kind words. They are appreciated.
If we think of 2 sets of gods in the Norse myth, then there is a 3rd as well. Even in Greek there's a set of gods we really don't want to associate with. I do think Titans or the Giants are the reflection of what might be yet older than the Early Farmers.
Now that is an interesting thought, and either my next video or the one after will explain who the Jotun were, and this can be applied to the Titans and similar. I won’t spoil the answer now, but I think you will be surprised :) Thanks for watching and taking the time to comment, and I hope you subscribe.
@@Crecganford To elaborate a bit, I see it as the original animistic forces splitting in to the "good" and "evil" gods at a point. But yes, can't wait to learn.
Hmm…You might be on to something.
@@demoncore5342 That hapened later. About 800 BC, THE PERSIONS ENVISIONS A WORLD IN WHICH a God of Light and a God of darkness were in a constant and eternal war. After th Persions liberated the Hebrews from the Babloniuns, and helped them to go back home and recreate therir religion. This was the birth of Judaism, and it incorperated something like a God of light and a poweful figurte of darkness. And this then migrated into Chritianity and Islam, where it was greatly intensfied.
@@milascave2 Not what I'm about tho... Let's think fire for example: it keeps you warm, lights up the darkness, let's you cook and create tools. But at the same time, fire kills, destroys property and crops... Makes sense to praise the good fire and seek protection from the evil fire. And same goes for any force of nature.
Back in 2014 I made a short foray into this rabbit hole. I was thinking about the origins of Xmas decorations put up at work, and surmised "...most people don't even know why there are 60 seconds in a minute, or seven days in a week, or blue for boys. (Odd one that, look it up.) or where the names of the days of the week come from."
Then I stopped in the middle of the week and thought,
"Wait a minute, where the hell did Tuesday come from?"
I could rattle off:
Sunday Sun's day
Monday Moon's day
Wednesday Wodan's day
Thursday Thor's day
Friday Frigg's day
Saturday Saturn's day (the only Roman one, the rest are Norse/Germanic)
As for Tuesday, I couldn't dredge up a single hint of meaning from my poor puzzled grey matter.
It turns out that Tuesday is named after yet another Norse god, Tiw, or Týr. Týr is sort of a diminished remnant of a once-central PIE god, pushed into the background by newer ones..
I have a video about this, Tyr vs Odin, it may interest you: th-cam.com/video/42_n021az9E/w-d-xo.html
Ooh, I am so excited to find your channel. Especially with all of your videos on death gods/goddesses/mythology. Thank you!! ❤️
I hope you enjoy them!
First time watching you. Your voice is amazing and you are fantastic at filtering down very broad subjects. Never seen anyone explain these things so simply. Plus Dionysus is amazing, I love beings in myth that seem to scatter and don’t completely fit because it makes you learn even more of origins and evolutions. I now need to look more into Demeter. Subscribing now!
Thank you for your kind words, and for watching the video. It is much appreciated.
The narrative parallel to the anthropologic timeline is a very nice touch, good work.
The famous Titanomachy (battle between the Olympians and the Titans) always reminds me of either the climate shift (end of the last ice age) or hunter-gatherer lifestyle to agriculture - just as fascinating as Hercules' battle with the "Hydra" multi-headed monster symbolizing the branching riverbeds and mankind's struggle to control them ("hydra-" means "water" right?).
However, there is one "group" of gods/goddesses that confuses me are the "Chthonic" deities - gods of the underworld. Hades, despite being one of the three brothers along with Zeus and Poseidon, is not considered an "Olympian" but a Chthonic god. Interesting thing here is, as Hades has a dark reputation of being the patron of the realm of the dead but he is also the god of riches buried deep within the earth - gems and valuable metals and it's hard to correlate these aspects to the rest of Greek myths, in the sense of finding their real-life counterparts, symbolically. The distinction between the "living" surface and the "dead" underground is obvious, yet both Demeter and Persephone are considered Chthonic goddesses. Also, let's not forget Hecate; the three-faced goddess of crossroads, witchcraft and necromancy - protector of the "oikos", the "household" - sharing this aspect with Zeus, Hestia, Hermes and Apollo and yet not an Olympian 😇.
The craziest thing I've ever heard that blew my mind was you saying. People used to believe every other animal was just like them, concious just like them, and thus they felt connected to everything. As if they were just another animal. Humans becoming so narscacistic shows why so many problems developed
Interestingly though we've found refrences to Zeus, Poseidon, Persephone, Demeter, Ares, Dionysus, Hera, Artemis, Apollo in Linear B, or the pre-Phonetic Mycanean script. Even further Zeus wasn't the head deity, Poseidon was, furthermore no records of Hades has been found but Poseidon appears to cover Hades' role. Furthermore the story of Persephone's birth appears in Mycanean record but as Poseidon and Demeter's child. Seeing as Mycaneans and Minoans are relatively homogeneous genetically speaking, and the Mycaneans indo-european settlers of the area it does provide some odd points on the religion. To that end modern Greeks (and therefore going back to the Bronze Age Collapse) are genetically mostly Mycanean given recent genetic tests in the area. This suggests a subset of Indo-Europeans who didn't prioritize the sky father in Zeus but Poseidon, who pulled triple duty for the Sea Earthshaker and Underworld alongside chief deity. Though culturally speaking that tracks, the Mycaneans appeared to place a heavy emphasis on chthonic deities and were also incredible sea farers. It likely wasn't until later Dorian invasions and Greek Dark Age when the Mycaneans a) adopted the Phoenician script as Hellenic Greek and b) reshuffled their deities to match more closely to their Indo-European cousins who came into the peninsula and eventually melded into them (to the point modern Greeks are still largely genetically Mycanean). And even then given Zeus, albeit presumably, held the epithet of Wanax or "the King" which could suggest older religious holdovers despite Poseidon now being the chief deity. So uhhh... Yeah
Modern Greeks like to pretend the were genetically unscathed after living for 300 years or so occupied by the Ottoman Turks. They are not the same blood as the Mycenaean Greeks, for now they look like Turks. Good knowledge of Linear B, however. Poseidon was the great god, no doubt. He may have been the top deity even before the Greeks became seafarers. And Aphrodite did not exist!
finding old gods is always a task that could never go wrong
i was looking for something like this! This is perfect, thank you so much!
Thank you for watching, and for leaving a comment. It is appreciated.
This video makes sense: I was taught that the Vanir was older than the Aesir, and Nerthus was the oldest of the lot. Nerthus was possibly the one people sacrificed to in lakes and bogs.
Imagine how much knowledge would have been kept if the religious crusades never happened.
The amount of stuff that wost lost is insane
Yes, it is such a shame what Christianity destroyed, it really does annoy me when I think about it.
@@Crecganfordare we going to ignore how much Islam destroyed? Only Christianity has admitted it's mistake. Islam however
@@caniblmolstr452 heaps of different Muslim leaders throughout history have condemned iconoclasm just as many also voraciously approved of it, just like Christian leaders. The two religions have ebbed and flowed between extremes since their foundings, you have to remember that Salafist Islam is a modern fundamentalist re-interpretation and isn't representative of Islam all throughout history.
@@w0t_m818 Islamic rulers in India destroyed unspeakable number of temples, universities and libraries for almost a thousand years. Establishing Islam in foreign lands was one of the primary reasons given for invasions by many Muslim Kings. Historically speaking, Islam and Islamic rulers have wiped out the original religion and culture of almost every country they invaded and settled. So no its not a modern thingg.
@@w0t_m818 salafist Islam is just the most extreme but the subsuming of the local culture has always bee present.
You think the present Syrians, Iraqis, Palestinians, Egyptians are the people they claim to be. Nope. They are all Arabs who conveniently have adopted the local culture they destroyed.
In the same manner let's say an American today may call themselves Red Indian after killing off all the Red Indians
Absolutely fascinating!! You have such a magnificent world roaming perspective!! I'm gobsmacked!! I'm actually having trouble catching my breath!!! Beyond interesting! Fascinating!!!!
Little bit of a necropost, but I'm an ancient civ student going into fourth year and I wanted to do my final thesis on the ancient gods. Ever since I was a kid I've seen all the parallels between different pantheons and wanted to find the original ones, that most of the IndoEuropean and even some Near Eastern cultural pantheons adapted from as stories changed or were shared via trade and migration, if there even is one single pantheon that started it all. It's gonna take me ages but it'll be worth it if I can find it!
That being said: new sub!
The concept of religion changed so much between 20k and 10k years ago, and from 10k to now, that I think to find an original pantheon would be challenging at best, and I wish you luck. And thank you for watching and your comment.