Dealer Stumped for 2 MONTHS?! Land Rover Intermittent No-Crank (Part 2)
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 20 ก.ค. 2024
- This Land Rover is POSSESSED.
After restoring functionality to the Audio System, the car seems to be happy for a few days... It's starting reliably and even works from the fancy Land Rover Remote app!
Not so fast....the Ghost comes BACK with a vengeance.
No Communication codes are stored, but the Telematics Control Unit (TCU) seems very suspect...it randomly doesn't talk, and that's when the car refuses to crank!
Can we restore the TCU functionality? Or is it a BEACHED WHALE?
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Ivan - ยานยนต์และพาหนะ
The back-up battery voltage was at the end of the data list you scrolled through -"TCU BuB Voltage", 2.360
That's a seriously wrecked lithium cell, if that's what it uses, well below the threshold it will properly charge.
Good catch. I saw that too😂
I saw it too, they love their acronyms, I know it from their alarms system BBus Battery back up sounder 😂
I wanted to write the same, probably mV.
Yep came here to comment the same!
If a lithium ion cell gets below 3.2V or so resting, it's probably toast. 3.65-3.7V is the nominal (average) voltage, and 4.2V is the max voltage.
My thoughts are the fuse blew, the dealer found the blown fuse and installed the new one in the wrong slot.
I saw the TCU battery voltage at 8:19 and it was 2.36V. TCU Bub Voltages- Rechargeable Bub. How did I drive 5 motorcycles and 5 cars since 1985 without the telematics. Jeez.
Same.🤘
It’s vehicles like this that make me appreciate my rubber floor, and hand crank windows even more…
This is just the vehicle to cross continents, .....on a transporter ?
I do appreciate Power windows... But not module controlled 🙃
Power mirrors I do like, but if it is not there it cannot go wrong !@@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics
My '06 Jeep Wrangler has the AMC/Chrysler 4.0L inline 6 and only 4 modules in it. Everything else is manual.
@@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics what is module controlled. and is all press button start cars problem cars?
A good friend of mine from school sold used Volvos. Some of his Volvo customers had Land Rovers, so he added Land Rovers to his lot. I asked him if Land Rovers were as good as their old reputation? He answered, "Best thing to ever happen to my service shop!"
Trouble is, there is a difference between Land Rovers and Range Rovers Land Rovers have a military background and parts of them are meant to break,like fuses to protect other more critical parts, and really meant to be serviced by the R.E.M.E There is really nothing wrong with the mechanical concept of Range Rovers, but they suffer from and always have, with crap wiring. I don’t know why, we can do wiring very well !
The LR2 has a Volvo/Ford engine, and many other FoMoCo parts. Sometimes it saves a lot of money. Cross-Reference is your friend.
For all those features and gimmicks this car has, couldn't they at least not build that rattle into the door? Man, pure LandRover Quality...
That’s not normal for a Landrover. Mine shuts silently.
Everytime he shut the driver's side door, it sounded like a older model vehicle with rusted out lower doors. One fuse moved by itself, the other disappeared completely. Land Rover, how the mighty have deteriorated.
8:20 BuB 2360
Good eye!
boom! give this guy a beer, and if he doesnt drink... make him.
A wild cost for a "dealer only" car part plus it being out of stock can sometimes be a pretty reliable indicator that everyone in the world who needs one has found a much cheaper source.
Spending over 30 years troubleshooting electro-mechanical equipment (not cars), I would say to myself often "there's a story here" when diagnosing issues. I would use it when I would find that something has been messed with, but I am told that no one touched it. It would alter how I would proceed because now everything is suspect.
Agreed! It's not infrequent that you need to be more psychological detective (who did what, and what was their thinking behind what they told me?) than system diagnostician.
Are there kids in the family?
I’m not sure if I was seeing things but at 8:20 it looks like the diagnostic does display the tcu back up battery voltage in the live data. Think it was labelled TCU BuB voltages - rechargeable BuB.
Also I wonder if a module recieves a “go to sleep” message from the audio amp module. Could that have caused the battery drain?
My guess for the fuse mystery is another mechanic found the blown 40amp fuse for the audio but put the new one in the wrong slot by mistake.
Can’t wait to see how the audio fuse and the no start come together or if they are actually seperate problems.
Love these mysteries and these great videos 👍
Great insights!
Good observation
Man, that cliff hanger hurt...i must know the outcome of the test!!! Lol
Roadside assistance likely did the fuse swap on the first jump start or battery replacement.
Ivan, consider getting a larger soldering iron and use flux for soldering 18650 cells. You want more thermal mass to transfer heat quickly and locally. Cells usually do not like to get hot and can be damaged, so you want minimize the time you are applying heat to avoid transferring heat to other parts of the cell. One trick you can use is to cool down the cell in the fridge for some time before you solder.
In general you shall not solder on the 18650 cells, get cells with the soldering tabs already welded on or get a proper spot welder for those cells. Those cells are very heat sensitive.
They make cheap battery welders that will run off the same battery his portable soldering iron does.
Can confirm. I built myself a battery and ended up destroying a few cells because I used a small solder iron. A big one, or even a cheap terminal welder makes things much easier and safer.
Don't even try to solder them. Both the strips and the battery are nickel plated and you need to get through that plating before solder will work. There are spot welding machines that are cheap and will weld the strips without heating the cell too much.
Or get a spot welder :)
If Ivan can't fix it, nobody can. Have to be not only a mechanic, diagnostician, but also a detective and instructor....Then have a TH-cam channel and also become a producer. Solid work!
Our World. Haha
And electrical engineer
Don't leave out that he needs to be a network and systems analyst.
I recon that'll fix it.
Just wait for the '"Aaargh, you NEVER directly solder a Li-ion battery, you HAVE TO spot weld them" crowd to open fire with both barrels !.
I have soldered them many times, and haven't seen one have a future thermal runaway event yet... Lol.
Thank you for posting your adventures, you do good work.
Doing something stupid and getting away with it doesn't mean it's a good idea. Generally it means you don't understand why it's a bad idea...
@@ferrumignis r/sarcasm. Ivan is just winding people up, he won't leave it like that for liability reasons...
The fancier they make things the easier they are to break.
this car got away from even the programmers
What's that have to do with the idiot that removed the fuse?!
Less things to go broke
more reliable it is
2015-202x Cars are electronic disaster
I've always said "the more shit they put in cars (power lift gates, power sliding doors, power modules) the more shit breaks
@@joevaagen6170 you don't have to check all the option boxes when you buy it, you know? The wife isn't always right and you can also say "NO".
From the "magical fuse fairy" to starting from an 'app' and a battery backed up TCU, I would rather drive a 1990 Buick! Thanks Ivan!
Imagine being at the mercy of a single-cell 3.4 volt battery!
A 60's Volvo would be relatively headache-free.
You better believe it brother.
Really? lol
Possible solution to the fuse fairy: fuse was blown, tech removed it to get an exact same one from the parts counter, and put back it to the wrong place
Customer stated that radio was out BEFORE going to a shop. Fuse Fairy lives.
@@dublindave5795maybe the fairy comes from LR
@@dublindave5795 Customer's memory may be wrong. The question I'd pose to the customer is if they ever loaned their car to someone or if they have curious teenagers.
@@dublindave5795 If that wrong slot does nothing, then having the fuse there would be the same as having only a blown fuse in the correct slot.
Didn't the battery die first before any of this started? The battery is in the rear by the fuse box. Maybe a fuse was caught and knocked out of position when the tech changed the battery and he noticed it and stuffed it back where he thought it came from?
Thanks, I have an app on my car, not a JLR product, but still very sketchy and I rarely use it. I suppose in very hot/cold environments it is useful to precondition the car, but even if I remote lock, I still go out and check.
Solving an intermittent on a Land Rover infected by the fuse fairy is not for the faint hearted, well done.
3V over that battery. Seems like the low voltage protection kicked in. I can imagine the module getting either not getting properly 12V fed and it relied on the battery to probably keep 1.5V or 3.3V things alive and or the charging circuit of that Li-ion battery is faulty which might also be in that module. Also soldering batteries is never a good thing, You can get kind of cheap spot welders now that cost nearly nothing.
I wouldn’t be surprised at all if Ivan does this fix with a 3 or 4 dollar battery. Almost expecting it! Ivan, I hope Your getting compensated for a good portion of Your diagnostic “research” on these cases that others can’t solve. It is deserved. 👍👍🇺🇸
This repair is exactly the reason why, in my trbl shooting career, I became *highly* skeptical of any story when asking 'what happened here?'. It seems the 18650 cell, which at some point will definitely fail, is needed to cold boot the TCU? If true, then the entire module is poorly thought out and seems a guaranteed service call.
You can get that battery pack in a 20 dollar harbor freight solar security light...
It even has the battery management board and wire connector on it.
more like $5 or $10. These are the same cells vapes use.
@@v12alpine vapes don't have the BMS and wires attached to them. This is almost a direct replacement in the Harbor Freight lights... and they cost 20 bucks :)
Don't need to solder nothing.
@@aurthorthing7403 that's not a BMS board on the battery. It's just a solid jumper lead. The BMS is in the telemetry module.
I don't believe you....@@v12alpine
I'll use Samsung battery
This isn't the first time you ran into this Ivan I've watched a few of your videos and saw the missing fuse it's got to be frustrating specially with a beast like that kudos to you with your diagnostic skills and procedures to troubleshoot an issue well done. You're only as good as the information you receive from the customer my guess is he was in there playing around
Great catch! Many comments here showing at 8:19 in the video the "TCU BuB Voltage" at 2.36 volts. (That backup battery) What is wrong is that the data field is "2360" and in Blue text. The voltage is BELOW acceptable range. The display should be in RED text and showing proper voltage. "2360" is wrong. "2.360 V" is the correct syntax and it should be in RED text, showing error condition.
Well sorted. Great analysis both hi tech and old school logic. Old school logic......... priceless 💥
Pedantic old man here... Sold er ! Not Sod der. Lol... You are incredibly patient and determined. Enjoyed this..
Every car I get is the same way 10 codes people just don’t fix anything until the car completely stops running then they wonder why the bill is so expensive.
People have become sooo lazy my dad had a saying he's too lazy to s**t only it's forced out of him. I think that is so much more relavant nowdays.
I agree, and a lot of codes a typical customer never knows anything about as they don't trigger a warning light. My personal Land Rovers for example have always had at least a couple of 'nuisance' codes...
Ivan, there was a data PID for the back up battery…you missed it !!….” TCU BuB Voltages- Rechargeable BuB !!!
I wonder if somehow the power supply to the amp feeds power to the tcu.
Often stay at an airport hotel in Birmingham UK and see car transporters with 6-8 brand new Landrovers leaving the nearby factory at Solihull, every time I see one I think there goes another load of trouble!
I was a manufacturing engineer where we had almost a hundred resistance spot welders on the shop floor. It's what I thought of as you pulled the terminals off with vise grips.
Ivan, still no flux when soldering. But in this case you should have spot welded the contacts. A spot welder for battery contacts costs less than 100$ if even 50$ and saves the battery from too much heat stress.
Yep! I've ruined several batteries in my youth trying to solder wires onto various C, D, AA & AAA batteries for 'inventions'. 😉😉😉
It could be that the solder wire he is using contains flux. In Europe that is pretty normal, we hardly use separate flux over here.
@@evilla7579its still used a lot here in Europe. But yes many people that do not work with soldering electronics, do not use flux but they should. Its still better than soldering with flux.
@@evilla7579 Correct! Notice the smoke coming off the iron when he feed in the solder? That smoke is the flux melting and burning off.
If you have access to an Interstate Battery store, they have a spot welder and will do that for you, usually free of charge.
The suspense and the rattling of the door of a over $100 K mall crawler really blows my mind.
I wonder how accurate third party scanners and data infos are in this particular case over OEM. Many comments mentioned the TCU BuB low voltage in the data stream but it was not highlighted and not even called out as voltage. The give away was that those batteries are on back order at the stealer. Which meant, are you ready to trade it in for a new $150K Range Rover?
Great find Ivan, MB Sprinter vans 2019-2020 has a very similar auxiliary battery that does almost the exact same as that piece of crap. You have now provided me a potential fix. Wonderful.....
A Land Rover with problems....I just can't believe it.
Or better yet - a Land Rover with NO problems....been there and done that - believe me!
Had mine 4 years with no issues at all.
Well impressed by Pine Hollow diagnostic and fault-finding abilities, the guy knows what he is doing
Don't leave us hanging like this, the suspense is killing me.
😆
Awwww man!!! This is like watching a TV series that says to be continued😢
@@MrJujubeanAt least the plot moves along, unlike the ABC show "LOST" back in the mid 00s.
He's channeling Rob Dahm.
2 parts for 1 moved fuse , he repeats lots also
Interesting diag. Looking fwd to part 3. I once had to troubleshoot a battery charging circuit of a new product for a company I worked for. The pcb with the charging circuit was designed by another company, so this was new to me. A little poking around, some temperature and voltage data acquisition, and some research lead me to understand that the charge curve was in part dictated the by battery temperature change over time, monitored by an attached thermistor. Long story short: I'm guessing there's a thermistor integrated into the swapped wiring and I hope Ivan can cover the new battery in such a way as to maintain proper thermistor-battery contact, as well as the temperature characteristics of the original wrap. In my case, a full battery discharge/recharge cycle was required to reset the battery monitor.
Had old landrover, would crank but no start ! Traced to blown rear electric window fuse. Replaced and fired straight up 😂
Similar issues with Mercedes setup , aux battery keep essential items live , just a small battery as your probably aware but cause so many issues and always hidden in the depths , great viewing
I guess I'm one of those REEEE people. It's pretty easy to do spot welding of tabs for under $100 nowadays. But $140 at the dealer?? I'd guess everyone else DIYs the battery too, since a quality bare is about $10 with shipping.
People: "Imagine a car that has a small rechargeable battery located in a module that when faulty randomly prevents the car from starting. That would be crazy!"
Land Rover: "Let's make this idea a reality! Oh, and make sure that when the batteries start failing in about 5 years time, they are out of stock with no ETA."
The least they could have done is tell you that the battery is a readily available 18650.
@@gaad7938 You're not thinking like a corporation.
Man! I got to the end of this series of videos with this one at 1.30 am! Nooooooo! I can’t go to bed without knowing the outcome. Please post next video soon.
I used to solder batteries into similar packs for commercial lock sets, the manufacturer stopped making them and the university had a building with 300 plus lock sets. My boss was thrilled!!! I got a bonus matter of fact, worked as good as original👍
your diagnostic skills are ausum great video thank you for sharing all your hard work
Awesome
Great lesson ! Well done !!
I had a nightmare LR3 with a similar set up and a not crank unless you disconnected the battery and let the capacitors drain. Then you got one start. The vehicle had several bad modules. The audio module and touch screen modules were dead shorted(missing fuses for a reason) after all the high speed chassis and powertrain modules were up and running it still wouldn't start. Figured out the MOST network was the last component for start authorization. Which was the audio and touch screen modules.
Can't wait to see what you found.
I was the same problem with a Chevrolet Tahoe , the same push the bottom and don't start....the problem was in the motor start , buy new and resolved the problem with the Tahoe.
Amazing effort for you going through this diagnostic process though when you don't have the full JLR software.
The vehicles will not start if the TCU battery is flat or if the TCU is disconnected, this isn't unique to the Discovery but is the same for all JLR vehicles and can be annoying on cars like the iPace.
The 2017MY TCU was notorious for issues, the company that makes them was changed and then any replacement TCU cannot be properly coded. I had a dealership try 6 TCUs on my old Disco5 with a TCU issue, non of them could be coded by the Master Technician and even JLR head office couldn't code them when hooked up to the car.
8:23 you are a so good at what you do. That is why people send cars 7-8 hours away to you.
The TCU BUB should be the backup battery.
Having spent time in software related industries, the comsumer is the tester of the final product.
Hey Ivan, The scanner did display "TCU BuB voltages". I assume that means back up battery. The number was 2360. So maybe mV?
Great job we need more mechanics like you!
The owner moved the fuse and won’t admit it.. great video Ivan.
Quick easy way to see if there is something on a "missing fuse", check resistance to ground on the fused side.
One thing I would do is to put the 40 amp fuse back in the original position and see if the No start scenario happens BEFORE I replaced the 3.6 volt battery back in the module to see if that they were related in any way. I don't think they are but it's a simple check to do to eliminate any possibility that there is some relationships between the No start issue.
Yes. Can he duplicate the fault just by easily moving the fuse back?
Have no idea what you're talking about, but somehow found it very interesting
8 min 21 I saw TCU Back up battery on your screen. The reading was 2260. Any way I shall keep watching. I am really enjoying this.
Missing Fuse Fairy.. .Best line I have heard in awhile.
I have lots of old 18650 batteries taken out of disassembled old laptop batteries. I leave the welded on tabs on the cells, I just cut them apart at the middle of the joining strip. That way I can use what's left of the strip to solder on.
This is awesome diagnostic
This reminds me of the security module in a 2002 Mercedes I was having trouble with. It was causing the headlights to flash continuously no matter what, until you either let it run the battery down or remove its fuse. The problem was the same. Its internal battery was toast. I couldn't get a replacement so I bought a different battery of the same voltage and wired it in externally, taping the battery to the case. The module still fit in its holder, and problem was fixed!
I have one of the new Camaro's and have the APP to start/unlock/lock flash etc. I only use it to start my car leaving work, i work in a mall by the time i get to my car it is already warmed up and good to go! It does tell me when the command has been actioned so that does help
Not that I think you would have gotten a lot 9f info from it but there was a "TCU BuB" data pid. The BuB of course being short for back up battery.
Just an observation. Great stuff and thank you for your content.
Pull the amp fuse again and verify same symptoms occur. Also what was being powered with fuse in wrong place?
Damn ivan, that is weird diagnosis! For 22k miles!? Wow. I used to own land rovers back in the day lol. That didnt have many modules at the time lol. Nice series so far. I wanna see the next one when the fix will be!! Hahaha
Nicely done Sherlock ...
I know techs at Land Rover. They replace TCU's like popcorn. The fuse got pulled during some diagnostics when a tech was on the phone with the engineering helpline. He forgot to replace it.
The dealers have a shortage of qualified advanced techs. Recruiting is tough and the guys clever enough to do this work have better options than working on vehicles for mediocre pay. The older master techs are retiring or not interested in the never ending warranty claims on the new technology.
Yep, any time a tool goes missing, or a fuse mysteriously jumps to a different fuse holder, it's NEVER operator error, it's ALWAYS a fuse fairy or the little green man to blame👍🤣
Ivan, hope you will measure the charge/discharge current on that new cell.
Check if the newly installed 18650 in the TCM will charge with the engine running.
If the module pulls 2-3 mA in "stand-by" or sleep mode and is not charged, the cell will be low voltage in 2 months.
NB - Audi A6 also didn't crank when the MMI (Multi Media Interface) had a problem...
Waiting for part III.
You have pid (rechargeable BuB) on 8:20
Ah man ! The vid ended as you were putting that battery in ..mystery.. waiting for part 3. 👍
That's a right head scratcher you have got there Ivan 👍👍👍👍👍
I don't want to have to own a smart phone to have my car start. That's crazy. But the process your sharing is super interesting.
Once your phone is connected to your car you are friends with the internet and vehicle manufacturer and their buddies. Think speakers and mics used to tell things to operate.
Instead of solder, you might want to invest in a spot welder. It's safer when dealing with those types of batteries.
You couldn't helped it, could you? There's nothing wrong in soldering the traditional way as long as you don't overheat them. You watch too many youtube tutorials.
@@alexdragomirescu5084 Rechargeable cells (e.g. Lithium ion or NiMH/NiCd) should _NEVER_ be soldered. The +ve cap contains the safety vent with a rubber seal, the chances of getting it hot enough to create a good joint without damaging that are very slim. It's not even a good idea to solder alkaline primary cells, but at least you know they are going to leak whether you solder them or not.
@@ferrumignis don't worry. Use common sense when soldering and there's no problem.
Missing Fuse Fairy......🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣 You're killin me smalls.
Actually you made two changes. You removed a fuse from an unknown circuit. Then you installed a fuse in the amplifier circuit.
What’s the other circuit do ?
Great just what I need for a rainy day 😅
I wonder if my local landrover dealer knows this .thanks for the video
Ahhhhh such a cliffhanger
something similar. When computers first came out after about 4 or 5 yrs many would not open up. Just out of the blue. There was clock battery in the system and if that batty went bad or failed to charge your computer would not come on. Same person designed this LR system
I would populate that fusebox with the appropriate fuses. No manufacturer now pins and cables a fuse box location if not required for that vin. Same with wiring harnesses throughout the vehicle.
The automotive technician's worst enemies: fuse fairies, and gremlins. XD
You're very resourceful, methodical and patient...
Great video Ivan and your right ( That Thing Is POSSESSED ) time to call a Priest!!!!😁
8:21 Ivan, you missed the data PID for the Backup Battery. It was right in front of you... TCU BuB Voltage - Rechargable BuB 2360. I believe this is displayed in mV so it was 2.36v before you removed it and measured 3v. Seems like the capacity is getting weak if it charges that fast. Good call 👍
Can’t believe you stopped the video there. It was just getting interesting!
No one would have thought about Multimedia would cause a starting problem i think every mechanic would have first fix the starting problem first then go for others like radio . Damn who would thought the radio or multimedia is causing the car not to crank or start..
I wont edit my comment though lol
Great job Ivan
Ahhh,, the magic of the app,, you know people are so in love with that stuff and you can NEVER trust it to work consistently..
I have a Honeywell app controlled Wi-Fi thermostat for my HVAC at the house and you never know what the hell it's going to do...
It works properly MOST of the time but it works when it wants to ALL of the time...
Data pid for the back up battery was there. Looked like 2600 ish, maybe in Mah.
Mind blowing, Ivan! The undocumented weird interoperability of the modules is simply absurd! That app just adds to the complication, with limited reliable functionality (if the car doesn't get a good network signal, it can't respond). It's outrageous that the charge on a Li-Ion battery can stop the car from working! And you stopped just when we were about to see the results - that was mean :-)
When troubleshooting electronics in retail store situations, I always look for the human first and then go after the bad component and broken wires
😅So about $800 at least to get it to you, 4 days diag, and Im guessing the owner is in fact the "fuse fairy". An expensive lesson.
Those electric seats in the back are crazy! The electric tailgate on my Subaru drives me mad, why power something like that? Thanks for the video. LR electricals don’t have the best reputation sadly. The batteries seem to be about £25 here in the Yk, which is still robbery.
Audio fuse are generally paired with clock always alive power functions.
3v on an 18650 lithium cell is a dead battery! That’s the exact fix I would’ve done. It’s ridiculous that they would charge that much for an 18650 cell with a connector attached. You should pick up or make yourself a spot welder with an old microwave transformer. They come in handy for working with lithium cells and they’re pretty fun to play with too 😂
I've often thought there should be 2 12V batteries in today's vehicles. One is powertrain, (engine, transmission, transfer case, differentials and ABS electrical) the other battery is for everything else. It may cost more, but it works.
Some cars have that, it's called an auxiliary battery.
I flat out believe that somebody messed with it (and the owner), by shifting things around.
That's just me... 🤔🤔🤔
My brother in law is a computer programmer of 42 years..He told me the new generation of programmers are hopeless here in the UK and around the world due to the lack of experience and in depth knowledge ,along with cheaper staff from India saving them money.These problems are also found on Aircraft using the CAN bus systems,Scary