This is an MBA disease. I have 40 years in the industry, 30+ in high tech, I have seen the development of that mentality. Executives are now compensated and accounted for based on quarterly bottom line. Their annual bonuses are also short-term performance. There is very little incentive to look into the future. Executives slash costs, lower quality, jack up short term profits, collect their obscene bonuses, and leave. The whole system needs to be restructured, but by now you have the same MBAs running everything (including our country), so they have no interest in changing that. They sit on Boards of Directors and actively seek out their buddies from other companies. In return, those will do the same for them. The amount of incompetence at the executive level is staggering (and yes, I am at the director level, so just one step below, can see it clearly with all its warts).
@@pjford5254 Yep. Don't get me started on what HR Departments have become these days -- woke policies enforcement centers. Half the people in HR departments are not only useless, but actually harmful to the success of the company.
Yes and then you wake up and your Remington. At this point knights armament and Glock are literally the only two brands I can say I would blindly trust out of the box. Everything is is a gamble on your life. Test your guns before you carry because I have got two from smith that would both have gotten me killed if I hadn’t learned they left the factory defective.
As you state, the fact that these defects made it past quality control is symptomatic of the times we are in, and it is not limited to the firearms industry either. I am glad that Smith did the right thing and made you whole again.
I bought a jm pro 625 back in 2005 and the cylinder wasn't even bored out to 45 caliber its a 45acp revolver it was also from performance center you couldn't even put cartridges in it wtf
I had a similar experience with S&W Warranty Repair. My M&P was dropping the magazine every second or third round. I sent it in and was told it would take 8 weeks. I got it back 8 weeks later and it now works flawlessly. I'm glad it is now working properly but I agree it took way to long. Have a great day.
Four out of Six S&W guns I've purchased over the past five years have gone back for different issues. Components with blemishes, forcing cone issues and scratches on stainless guns out of the box. It's disappointing and has made me look to other manufacturers. As you pointed out, having your repair department so backed up is a bad sign in and of itself.
Damn, I'd stop buying them after I got 2 bad one's. I normally don't care too much about aesthetics, but the company should... and selling guns with obvious damage would definitely tarnish my opinion of their products.
It's great to hear you got it back & all appears well. I agree w/you regarding your CS experience/impressions, too. I had a similar issue a few months ago & it seemed all the corporate entity cared about regarding my CS experience was "Problem identified, problem corrected", with no regard for how, why, or how frequently CS issues were arising.
I bought one last year before seeing your vid, and now I notice similar defects as you describe. Overall, I was disappointed with the gun, but my biggest gripe is the trigger. I don’t mind the trigger-pull as much as I dislike the trigger-return. If I buy another revolver, it won’t be S&W. Keep up the good work, you’re one of my “go to” guys for info and opinions.
Chief, the S&W you bought this Revolver from is NOT the S&W of yesteryear! They have left it the customer/owner to do the final QC inspection. I don't believe you are totally correct about this happening solely because of the high demand for firearms these days. There was plenty of demand (probably more ) during years of war, foreign and domestic conflict and when EVERY LEO in the USA carried a Revolver. I do not remember this issues in this high a count back then. I believe is is more to do with the fact that the pencil pushers running the Company are not as concerned with QC as they are with making their share holders smile. I am a HUGE VINTAGE S&W aficionado (have a relatively nice vintage S&W collection) and have not experienced the sloppiness, carelessness, poor workmanship, lack of caring etc. that has been prevalent at the S&W Factory for 20+ years now with vintage models. I have personally witnessed this when I was at a private Factory tour back in 2008. I saw many parts of the Factory never opened to the public! Not to say there was never a bad apple that slipped through 20, 30, 40+ years ago - but now it seems like it is the rule and not the exception. Unfortunately, there is not one single current production S&W firearm I would buy - not a one! When I get a hankering for a "new to me" S&W", I seek out a 97% - 99% condition vintage model and have not been disappointed yet! Quite sad, quite pathetic the way things are now with S&W and most other manufacturers now days. It seems no one is exempt! :( :(
I think current customers are a significant part of the problem. There are so many new/first time gun buyers who have no idea what to look for, plus so many firearms are bought by people who wouldn’t even see these flaws. In 1960, no company could get away with Quality Control flaws like this. But think about the Pinto/Vega years of Detroit cars. By now the bean counters ruin so many products. At least Smith & Wesson fixed the issues. I have a new Colt King Cobra with a hammer notch defect that “customer service” refused to acknowledge as a problem. Never again Colt, never again.
Back when Bangor Punta owned S&W I was managing a large gun store. I saw some real garbage coming in at that time. But, I also saw this type of garbage coming in from Colt, too. I remember one revolver that had the barrel completely rusted up and another one that the crane was partially opened and wouldn't close. I don't remember which was S&W and which was Colt, but both were top of the line models. All looked like they came from a third world cottage industry. We started calling the Colt representative Frito Bandito when he visited the store because the same holding company owned Frito Lay and Colt. The Bango Punta company in Brazil owned S&W. Democrats were in power, prices were surging and nobody cared about anything except smoking dope and drawing a pay check. Ruger was a big exception to the rule. They turned out good quality through all this. Winchester went to hell in a hand basket. Weatherby started making autoloading shotguns with beautifully finished wood and an aluminum receiver. And now it seems like we are headed that way again. Maybe the attitude with turn around some in January.
Morning HR from W. Pa. Glad you kept all the snow over there yesterday. My first model 19 had a great action and a beautiful blued finish and cost about $180. How times have changed.
Great video! I own three Model 10's, circa 1965 (2" BB, 4" taper-barreled, 4" BB), a 642 Airweight, two Hand Ejectors, a 457, 6946, Bodyguard .380, and a Shield Plus. Great guns! Smith took really good care of me when my Bodyguard had a creeping pin. Two weeks turnaround. Walther, in Fort Smith, AR, and Glock in Smyrna, GA, have really great customer service as well. I'm sorry for your experience on such a high-grade order!
I just bought a Model 27 Classic that's going to have to go back to the Mother Ship. Out of the box, the B/C gap isn't right and the lock up fails on one of the charge holes. Very disconcerting. I am sure S&W will remedy the situation, but there's zero excuse for guns at that price point going out the door without being thoroughly inspected.
I had a problem with mine as well. There was a problem with the ejector/yoke and it prevented a good lock up. They repaired it as they did for you and it came back 100% reliable. I paid $1200 for it and was very disappointed I couldn't enjoy it right out of the box. Like you S&W .357s were my dream guns. Then I added the K frames to the mix for their lighter frames and shootability. I still love them all and shoot them whenever I can.
Thanks for the update video. I recently purchase my first revolver. The 627-5 (8) shot performance center. The cylinder stop notches are already showing raw metal and the cylinder stop it self is showing massive metal. All brand new out of box never fired. I oiled it and dry fired with snap caps and the cylinder notches are showing even more. I’m disappointed as I spent $1600 usd on this revolver and don’t want to send it back. I’m in California so I already had to wait a long time to clear for the gun and sending it back is gonna break my heart. --I feel they are rushing products now a days. They are probably short staffed and pulling stafff front the normal production line. / I’m in the 39-45 age range, register nurse and navy veteran from 99-03. I’ve seen attention to detail and what S&W is putting out is not good. I even own their stock
I’m so pissed, I want to learn gun smithing so I can go work in the gun plant. To put out more than top tier products. As time progress and America changes… S&W and the revolver will be the symbol of American Masculinity and Heritage
There is a video on here of the master smiths putting the Performance Center guns together. I was astonished that I never once saw a torque wrench in anyone‘a hands. I’m an old aircraft mechanic and we rarely ever tightened a nut without a torque wrench. So that explains a lot of the cracks on the housings of a lot of these guns I’ve seen in other videos. I don’t care how often you do a job, no one has a calibrated wrist or elbow. I found this gun used in a local pawn shop and whoever owned it before me was a barrel cleaning expert! There was nothing in the barrel. No fowling and no marks. It has to have been shot. No one pays this kind of money for a gun and never shoots it. The cylinder is just as meticulously cleaned. There are some minute handling marks but this gun is clean. Not a scratch or dent in the wood grips either. So I took them off and had a set of rubber grips in a drawer and put them on. The tritium front site is weak. Might order a new one. But the trigger is amazing. I’ve done a ton of trigger jobs in my 50+ years of shooting and tinkering on guns and the only one I can compare it to is the new Colt King Cobra I just sold. It was so light you had to video yourself shooting it because you don’t feel the trigger! 😂😂. I also did a good job on a Ruger GP100 that is 2 lbs on both double and single action. I’ve even got a few DA pulls at 1.85 lbs and it still has the factory hammer spring. No light strikes! But I do love this gun and I hate hearing you had trouble with yours. That’s just unacceptable. Fortunately for me I didn’t have any of these issues. The barrel tightening lugs look perfect on mine. Hopefully someone has informed the “master” smiths to use common sense and grab a torque wrench now. Guys think that just because they do something 50 times a day, every day, that they can just feel it. I’m sure there may be some that can, but I’ve never met one. Many times we double checked a torque and they were way off when someone didn’t use a torque wrench. And not by just a few pounds. Usually 30-50 pounds off either too tight or not tight enough. I bought an AR online once and I took the barrel nut off by hand. It had an inspection sticker on it too! Thanks for posting these videos. Very interesting!!!
Glad S&W took care of it for you. The time it took for you to get it back is what I have experienced with the S&W. When the Shield first came out I bought one new right away. When cleaning it after the first range trip, I found the sear deactivation lever (the little yellow lever in the mag well) laying on the table. I had no idea what it was at the time. I called S&W and they took it back, fixed it and got it back to me in about 3 weeks. Later I figured out the only way that could have just fallen out is they did not install the pin that holds it when they built it. I have dealt with Sig and CZ claims as well. Sig is very quick with tunr around. CZ had my P01 for about 6 weeks and then just sent me a new gun since they could never get parts. I have also used FN warranty. They were pretty good to deal with as well and got my pistols back much faster than S&W. However, they made me pay shipping on a pistol I bought used.
A few years ago, I sent my 1987 686 with 8 3/8" barrel to S&W for a voluntary recall issue. It took them over a month to return it. When I got it back I noticed that they moved my rear sight almost as far to the right as it could go. My barrel was not lining up straight either. I called them and they weren't exactly friendly about it. There is NO WAY it happened when I shipped it because it was ridiculously over boxed and packed. You could have drop kicked that box down the street & it couldn't have done that. They obviously messed it up and tried to hide it by moving the sight to compensate. Unbelievable. I sent it back again & finally got them to fix it for free using the manufacturers guarantee (as I remember). I have had exactly the opposite experiences with Ruger customer service. I love S&W products but that left a very bad taste in my mouth.
@@keithhartman9946 It was an old recall regarding the possibility of the gun jamming the cylinder so you couldn't get it open. It had happened to me 2-3 times over the years. Once the gun cooled down I could open it.
@@jefflang6271 Thanks. Sounds like it could be the same issue as with the first 586s . The hole where the firing pin came through the backing plate was too big.
I hear a lot of younger shooters claim that revolvers aren't as reliable as pistols. Poor quality control is part of it. The other problem of course is a stunning lack of maintenance.
@@876mpr my academy class had perhaps 40 folks from many different departments. We fired thousands of rounds with zero stoppages. That said the weapons were inspected before issue and we kept them extremely clean.
@@ftdefiance1 I believe it. I shoot handloads with cast bullets exclusively and always remove the cylinder and thoroughly clean each time they’re fired.
Totally agree that any new gun, let alone a Performance Center, should be of top quality. That being said I bought a 1979 Model 10 at a pawn shop with a worn out main spring. I called S&W customer service to buy a new spring. I was told the spring was free and it showed up 48 hours later. No questions asked , not even the serial number. I am a Smith fan for life, or at least until I have a bad experience.
My local gunsmith shop ALWAYS has a backlog of at least 2-3 weeks for even the simplest task. Can't imagine how big of a pile of repairs places like S&W or KelTec has to deal with.
I know a lot of people rush to pick up a firearm ordered, and that you should be able to count on quality control, but that just isn't the case with almost every manufacturer. From Glocks to high-end AKs to even an AR 15 parts kit, I have had issues. Luckily the only problem I've ever had with a Smith and Wesson Performance Center model revovler was light primer strikes. By removing the handle and ever so slightly tightening the tension screw, I was able to fix it. But yes, usually I'll take about 10 minutes and physically inspect the firearm, field strip and all and check for anything out of the ordinary whether it's cosmetic or structural and if it's not up to par I refuse the transfer. It is a headache but necessary. The bad part is most people don't bring a full set of gunsmithing tools to really inspect the firearm and problems usually show up at the range or at a later date.
I believe your comments are very well said and we’ll placed . And very valid. American gun manufacturers are a blessing to us and to fail in quality is not a option for us as buyers at1000 dollars for a revolver when a Canik is high quality and half the price and come with 2 to 3 magazines to get 1 is a fight nowadays so I think you my friend are on point again
I had to return a new J frame PC revolver. The first time I pulled the trigger it stuck to the rear. Smith and Wesson was great and it was returned in perfect condition. But I agree, when you pay a premium for a PC series weapon from S&W it should be perfect when it leaves the performance center. That said, I really like my 637.
I sure hope CZ acquired them, may turn out better revolvers and improve service. I understood they were or have acquired Colt my 3" Cobra broke 2X just doing dry fire. Last time they were not going to work on it from what my gun dealer told me. His gunsmith put in modified Wolfe springs seemed to cure issue. Trigger would not return.
I enjoyed following the repair to your S&W. I'm glad it was resolved to your satisfaction. I have a question unrelated to the repair. How do you clean your revolver without damaging the finish. I would like to purchase a S&W model 19, just like the one you purchased, except I'm concerned I may damaging the finish when I clean it. And information you provide on cleaning this pistol would be great appreciated. Thank you.
With care, the cleaning process won’t damage the revolver’s finish. It would probably take a dedicated video to demonstrate the process. Maybe I’ll produce one in the future.
Good morning HR!!! A Ferrari shouldn't ship with a flat tire, end of story!!! Per our discussion, I can see why shooters are scouring the countryside, madly searching for the S&W guns of yore from the eighties on backwards, when the old crew was running the show, i.e., men building guns instead of machines, and when accountability was a real thing. Keep up the great thorough and fair-minded reviews as ever!!!
What I find disheartening is that S&W in particular has changed their guns extensively to reduce hand fitting and manufacturing time. Examples are not pining the barrel, not countersinking the chambers, and forgoing the deep bluing process. The shrouded barrel is less expensive than a solid milled barrel. They should have, therefore, plenty of resources for QC. I was at my local gun store yesterday. They certainly have plenty of guns in stock, so that means the industry has overcome the shortage and associated backlog. Regardless, there shouldn’t have been any QC issues with your gun. However, every business knows that only a few customers would have returned an item for repairs, and it’s often cheaper to handle the repairs instead of having proper QC procedures.
Id have no problem with them cutting cost that way on their regular lineup. Completely unacceptable from their Performance Center however. I see it like the guitar industry; I expect base models to have the bare minimum and custom shop to be hand crafted.
@@ryanespinoza7297 You will never have to call on your guitar to save your life! Your attitude that, "it is OK for only the Performance Center guns to work properly, because I can afford them" is both callous and irrational.
My experience with a Smith Carry Comp was very similar to yours, except I had to send it back a second time to repair the repairs. It took over 6 weeks each time. In the end, it still wasn’t quite right, but I wasn’t going to send it back a third time. However my 586 runs like a charm. All I can say is beware of the Performance Center.
One of the most aggravating things there is - is when you have a problem with an S&W gun and the fan boys go ballistic if you've had issues and blame you or your marksmanship, and yes S&W quality control is not what it used to be. In 2015 I bought an SD9-VE that had irregular milling in the barrel and a snaggle tooth hanging. The polymer frame was also warped. It should have never left the factory, but S&W customer service sent it back saying there was nothing wrong. After that experience, I had a new Model 64 with a clocked barrel, the vaunted two piece barrel that was supposed have taken care of that problem. I sent a very detailed letter with the gun and this time it went to the right person and three months later I got it back in very good shape. I have other S&W firearms that had issues. One was a gen 1 M&P 9. Another was a Shield in 9. Others have been great. Out of the 8 new S&W firearms I've bought over the last seven years, 4 had issues, and 3 of those I got rid of. While I own a couple of Sport II AR's I like, I absolutely refuse to buy another one of their polymer pistols. Overall, I'm still an S&W fan, but they definitely need to up their game on the quality control of what leaves the factory.
Over the past 20 years or so I’ve probably sent 10 firearms back to S&W for various issues. Some were PD guns and some were mine. This is the first time I got the feeling they really didn’t care, and this was certainly the longest turn-around time.
I bought two performance center EZ's one 380 acp and one 9MM. The 380 was well done the 9MM had a bad trigger assembly regarding reset having failures. My experience was the exact same as yours as far as return and turn around. The trigger pull is still gritty. I believe they just dropped in another trigger and sent it back.
Its interesting to me that out of all of the S&W revolvers I've ever had, the only ones I've ever had any issues with came from the Performance Center. Every single PC gun I've had, came with issues off the shelf. The last two (325TR and 460) both squeaked like the front suspension on a 1976 Pinto after dry firing just a few times. I pulled the side plate on the 460 and it, no joke, was full of metal dust -- like they'd left it laying open near a grinding wheel while someone was grinding steel. They're all good now, but like you said, its a hassle to get them to an acceptable point -- especially considering they came from the Performance Center. Semper Fi!
I bought a model 29-10 classic 4" barrel on 3/3/2023 brand new and when I got it home from my ffl I cleaned it with ballistol after wiping down I noticed the bluing came off. I sent it back to smith and wesson it came back in a month in perfect condition smith and wesson did a great job
@@hrfunk I really love smith and wesson revolvers I really want to 586 L comp. I like your reviews. Do you have e a review on your model 19 carry comp ? If so I willook for it
The face of the cylinder looks dull around the holes, where apparently they ground down the tooling marks that you had complained about. It would have been nice if they polished the face for a consistent finish.
Excellent video! I think, it's good that you have this Channel, this is strong platform you can use to highlight a Gun Company's success and failures! I'm glad S&W Costumer Service stepped up and did their job. I had a 586 Carry Comp which, I sold. I regret it! However, in it's place, I purchased a new Model Colt Python, 2021. I hope I'm not kicking myself later. I'll keep you informed! LOL! Best of luck!
Completely agree. I did warranty work for them in the 1980s through the 1990s until they stopped having warranty centers which was due to how much more consistent the CNC process and later the use of MIM parts made their products. In the intervening years something was progressively lost, the intangible sense of "awe" when you open the box and take a look. It is far more labor intensive to make a barrel from a forged piece of steel than using a barrel and shroud but it is a much finer example of the gun making art. The real "proof of the pudding" is that it is highly doubtful that anyone that has "pinned and recessed" Model 19 would ever consider trading it for a new model.
I've got to say that I miss the days of the local warranty centers. There was one within easy driving distance of my home, and if I had a problem with a S&W firearm I could simply drive there and drop it off. The repair was usually completed quickly, and I would receive a phone call informing me when I could pick it up. I much preferred that to the drama of having to ship a firearm all the way back to the factory and then wait weeks or months for it to return.
I'm a big fan of S&W myself. However, I bought one of these Nov. of 2023. It was so marked up I'd swear it was used. The trigger looked like it suffered from a bad heat treatment, or like it was used and poorly cleaned. The cylinder had the line you mentioned, the overall finish was sub-par at best.Even more surprising, the sites were not aligned. I've since fixed most of these issues myself, but very poor craftsmanship in my opinion for a performance center piece. Like you mentioned, these should've never left the manufacturer with these flaws.
I'm really interested in getting the 586 L comp but i can't find any information on the Trigger pull weight. If the Trigger pull weight is 7 to 8 lbs. I will buy the L comp but if not i will buy a 686-6 deluxe in a 3" barrel. Would you know what the trigger pull weight on yours?
Yes, there's a problem with manufacturing quality and final inspection. Last year, I ordered a new M&P Shield with thumb safety. When received, the manual safety was virtually impossible to actuate. Rather than send it to S&W, I (after a few hundred difficult manipulations) took it to a gunsmith who made it maybe 50% better - but still virtually unusable in-a-pinch. So, I just live with the safety 'off.' I've seen, in another manufacturing field I'm familiar with, how those responsible for final inspections are pressured to pass virtually everything, to the point at which they just don't care anymore.
any issues with specific ammo? I just purchase one and it shot Remington 38 125 GR and Fiocchi 38 158 GR without issues, but when I tried to shoot Armscor 38 158 GR range ammo, one out 3 would not fire. The Range guy said that ammo has really hard primers. Next issue, when I shot Buffalo Bore 140 grain 357 magnum, they fire all the time, but the casing gets so hot, it won't let the cylinder cycle to the next round and I can't even open or remove the shell, until it cools off, then I have to pry it out. I did shoot Magtech 357 magnum 125 GR with no issues. I ordered Underwood 120 GR and 180 GR loads along with Hornady 125 GR XTP, will try shooting those to see if I get any more issues and if so, I will send it to S&W so they can correct it. They say since these PC revolvers have fine tuned triggers, they can get ammo sensitive, but I don't want an unreliable revolver.
In my experience with Taurus revolvers, you either get a great revolver or a defective dud. I've yet to see anything in between with Taurus. If you do get a good one, it's like getting a S&W for half the price, albeit with an inferior double action trigger pull. I've had a few that I was pretty happy with, too.
@@joeblowfromidaho3642 Three brand new duds in a row from Taurus. Never again. And yes, horrible double action. (S&W isn't doing DA very well any more, either.)
@@davidkachel I bought a 6" Taurus (669) in 1994. The first new gun I ever bought. My girlfriend put 5/5 shots on a small yellow sticky at 25 yards with it with gunshow reloads. It has lead a leisurely life (I gave it to her) ever since with no problems. I went to Smiths when I started competing in revolver (did not trust the Taurus to take the abuse and couldn't improve the trigger enough with the coil main spring). Luck of the draw I guess. "Smith" and "Performance Center" hold no magic as names for me. I have seen too much shit
@@nomikes4392 S&W have definitely gone downhill of late. The only reason I have not bought any new revolvers from them until quite recently, is that they had models that could not be acquired otherwise, like the 69, and the 329. Otherwise, I buy older S&Ws without the very offensive Hillary hole. I am genuinely concerned that sooner or later that damned Hillary abomination will get someone killed. It has to happen sooner, or later. They do lock up, just infrequently enough to convince a lot of people who want to be convinced, that they are safe. DEFINITELY, not! I tried to give Taurus a chance, but they blew it, in spades. I understand that some people have gotten great guns from them. Not me. I was never a Ruger fan, but have come around recently. Ruger's medium frame 5 shot .44 special is a dream. I really wanted to hate that Ruger, but have to tell myself (only in whispers) that I might even prefer it to the 696 (I have owned a couple of 696s).
I purchased a PC Carry Comp 586 3" 7 shot about a year ago. I had two problems initially. Light primer strikes and very stiff cylinder release. At times I had to use both thumbs to open the cylinder. I agree that quality control at S&W is very poor. I won't be buying any other PC weapons from them. The extra that you pay only to have to send it back is totally unacceptable. Time to get repairs made also is excessive.
Hi, I really enjoy your videos. Thank you so much! I have this exact revolver, and I love it. Unfortunately, I think your barrel was not actually properly repaired. I can see gouge marks inside the barrel where they originally were damaged. They are symmetrical gouges, but gouges nonetheless. I could show you a picture of my barrel, and how it is pristine, if you want an example of how it’s supposed to be.
I was just watching your video because I just bought the same exact gun it may be look at the cylinder and I too have scratches on mine Thanks for the video I will be sending my back also.
Last two S&W pistols I bought it had to be sent back. Revolver Barrel canted and 9mm SD barrel was ground by hand crooked😳. Both were new bought at auction.
I bought a new S&W ,40 Shield and took it to the range only to find it would not go into battery with a loaded round. I also sent it back to the factory and it took seven weeks to be returned. This was in 2018.
I'm glad to see that they corrected the issues, but you put it best in saying that it shouldn't have made it past QC in the first place. Especially considering that this is a Performance Center model. Good customer service is always appreciated, but not needing to interact with the company's customer service right off the bat is even more appreciated. Here's hoping that these manufacturers understand the importance of QC and what lackluster QC can do to a reputation that took decades to build. I'm presently in the market for a new double-action Ruger (I refuse to buy any new S&W revolver with that internal lock in it as a matter of principle). Barring the chance that I come across a used Service Six in great shape, I'm hoping that the GP100 I do end up with is good to go right out of the box.
Thank You for going to the trouble of posting these vids and editorializing on this issue! It IS crucial if we are to keep a viable American firearms industry. About a decade ago I was shopping for another S&W snubby revolver. I have a talent for appearing like a simple newbie, and they proudly showed me a 642 with a cylinder gap wider than a credit card! I was then finished with that shop and with S&W too.........................elsullo
Greetings Mr. Funk, I’m currently waiting for my unfinished work to be finished! Early November of last year, I sent my 66 combat magnum in for a trigger job, green fiber optic sight, and to align the barrel shroud with the top strap. Well imagine my “surprise” when I got it back on March 28th of this year, that’s over 4 months. I eagerly opened the box and the first thing I immediately saw, was the lack of a green fiber optic front sight! They did an excellent job on the trigger, but ignored the barrel shroud alignment request also. I called S&W and 2 days later, March 31st, they got it back to finish the work. Which has been “expedited” for me to get it back in 5 Weeks. So, almost one week down, 4 weeks to go, maybe….
In the past 2 years- Purchased a PC 629 Hunter. -bad crown and forcing cone out of the box. Shot two cylinders, sent back, waited for eight weeks. PC 627 - light primer strikes with factory ammo. Screw adjustment didnt fix. Sent back. 6 weeks. PC 19 Carry comp. (Same as reviewed revolver) mangled muzzle, cylinder looked like it was dropped 10ft. Sent back. 8 weeks. Never again will I purchase a new production S&W. 3 of 4 PC models ove purchased had to immediately go back for repairs. Completely unacceptable.
Recently, I bought a new 460 XVR and discovered that about 10% of the trigger pulls resulted in light primer strikes. Small dimple in the primer and no bang. With 2 or 3 pulls of the trigger, it would finally shoot. Sent it to S&W for a fix, got it back 2 months later saying they adjusted the crane. I had a bad feeling about the fix, and took it to the range. 10% of the trigger pulls are still not shooting. They have the revolver again. I'm an optimist but I have a bad feeling about the pending results. If they can't fix this, I likely never buy any new S&W again.
I recently sent a 586 and a 19 to the Performance Center (PC) for trigger tuning. Both came back with light primer strikes. I replaced the main springs myself and now have no issues. I am not impressed with the PC.
@@hrfunk Very good actions. Love both of them and the nostalgia of a blued revolver. BTW, I also have a .380 EZ - best firearm ever! You have a great channel, thank you for your posts!
Re: your joke about bleeding S&W blue... A cop friend of mine always used to joke (absolutely deadpan), when some dirtbag would reference his mother, that "Cops don't have mothers. We're manufactured at Smith & Wesson."! I think you are bang on with the reasons for these QC issues becoming such a common occurrence, and I would extrapolate from that that this probably ALSO explains the long turnaround on the repair. I would guess that such repair claims have ALSO become very common, and their repair department is undoubtedly up to their eyeballs in work. Glad to see, at least, that they appear to have gotten all the identified deficiencies dealt with. Looking forward to the shooting review... I'm a big fan of the K-frame revolvers. Sadly, that particular one is not one I can get, as it doesn't meet MY government's ludicrously restrictive criteria for legality.
Friend of mine purchased a new model 66 combat magnum last week. We shot 30 rounds through it yesterday before the cylinder locked up and will no longer release. Back to Smith it goes…what do you want out of a $1,000 gun though
QC is a thing of the past with these companies! I had a S&W Performance Center gun, 640 Pro, that the barrel was a good 1/8 inch off center. Called S&W and they also said a month and a half backlog on repairs, so I fixed it myself. Conclusion: just because it says “Performance Center” on the gun, that doesn’t mean shit! Oh, and I sold the gun pretty quickly too. But, that doesn’t mean I still don’t buy S&W’s revolvers. No sir, just found a used 19 carry comp in .357, but I made sure I checked everything under the sun before purchasing. Fool me once, shame on you, fool you twice, shame on me. Glad she’s back in good order and shooting those mean old people target gang.
I wholeheartedly agree with you Howard in that how does a manufacturer let something like that go out the door ? Who is not doing their job ?? Every one of S&Ws products should be PERFECT before they go out the door ! I personally have had two defective revolvers in the past from S&W. One was a 10 shot .22 revolver that came from the factory way out of time and as a result I will never buy another 10 shot .22 revolver from any mfr. because I came away with the impression that because the ratchets on the back of the cylinder are so closely spaced that it may not be possible to properly time them [ ?? ], I dunno. Even though I like the idea of a 10 shot DA revolver. The other snafu I purchased from S&W was a 6 inch barrel model 686 plus. That darn thing, when I got it home and examined it, the barrel was threaded into the frame at a very acute angle. How I missed that when I purchased it, I dunno. And I have an acute eye for detail, but I will tell you this : I look everything over with a much sharper eye these days ! Signed, Doug.
My repair on a brand new model 66 that I talked about the last time took an excessive long time to get back also. And that would’ve been two years ago I think.
Wow, I certainly understand that. But, some of the relatively new S&W seven and eight round .357 cylinders are (I believe) all post-Hillary. Alternatively, there are always SP101’s, GP100’s and Redhawks.
I bought S&W keys for all my Hillary Hole revolvers since they are used guns and did'nt come with keys. You know, I have never needed an S&W key. Having disassembled every on of those guns; 629, 686, 640, 317; there is no possibility for the lock to fail or set itself or do anything but remain inert. Annoying? Yes, very much so. But has no effect other than make better deals on an otherwise excellent used gun for me to buy.
@@Iceaxehikes I hate to disappoint you, but they do fail, and more often than S&W will admit. I had the Hillary hole in a 329, brand new from the factory, never fired, lock up repeatedly while dry firing it. It was so repeatable that I finally realized I could make it lock up at will, by holding it at a specific angle. Disable it.
@@Iceaxehikes What a stupid thing to say. Why would anyone waste time making up stories about something they don't like? You sound like one of the S&W fanboys from the S&W online forum (not the company forum) who are obsessed with hiding the truth and won't allow any posts regarding the Hillary hole. My 329 did exactly what I said it did, in exactly the way I said it did it. And if you work on old revolvers, then you haven't worked on a S&W with a Hillary hole. There aren't any old ones! I work on S&Ws too, my own, and there is absolutely nothing about "taking them apart" that would allow anyone to know whether or not locking up is possible. You could stare at a disassembled S&W revolver for a year and not be able to determine that.b You should think, before you speak.
Chief, This is excellent, at least they stood up and fixed what was wrong, other companies might have just said lump it. With the reputation S&W has, they should fix this kind of mess. Congratulations.
The missed quality inpsection and the turnaround time were excessive, as I'm sure Smith would agree. It can't be understated how difficult it is in the current market to retain and acquire skilled personnel for ever employer,
I think one of the reasons we see problems like this is the lack of new workers entering manufacturing and trades and all the older skilled guys leaving to retire. All the manufacturers around me are short on labor because everyone just want to get a bachelors and do something else even though it might actually pay less. There aren't enough skilled people who REALLY know what they're doing and management usually doesn't care or listen from their ivory tower.
BINGO... basically what I was going to propose. Too many people now think that, for example, as long as they run a reamer through something, it's good to go. But you have to use the RIGHT-SIZE reamer... VERY important! : ) They're just going through the motions, without a full understanding of what the end result should be.
I bought a brand new Smith and Wesson “Thunder Ranch “!revolver , model 22-4 about 12 years ago, Caliber 45 ACP , which used moon clips . , put about 12 rounds through it , oops ! Cylinder latch falls off . Locktite fixed that , 40 rounds later , trigger return spring breaks . All on factory ball ammo . I never could get a live person on the phone , I took it to a retired police department armorer that I knew , he replaced the trigger return spring . Ive not fired it since .700.00 + tax paper weight
I remember those revolvers. I really wanted one back when they were being made. If I were you, I would go out and shoot that thing. It’s still covered by Smith’s lifetime service contract so if anything else happens they’ll fix it. (But it might take a while).
How's the cylinder gap? Thanks for your informative videos. I've learned a few things from you. One very important one comes to mind in regards to damaging an extractor by loading a round directly into the chamber. I just wonder if they took metal off the face of the cylinder, thereby affecting the gap
I'm glad this happened to you..... I don't mean that in a bad way. You are an experienced person with firearms and you know what to expect from a good quality firearm. Younger shooters may not have noticed the issues or they may have just shrugged and accepted it. I still am seriously shocked that this revolver made it out of the factory in the condition it was in. To hear that S&W has a large backlog of firearms being repaired is a big red flag, and I agree, the time it took to be repaired was a bit excessive, especially for a brand new firearm. I am also a S&W fan and this is something that really is a turn off. Once we see products start to live off of their reputation/name, it usually means bad things for that company in the near future. Hopefully, this will not be the case with S&W and they will right the ship before it's too late. As a retired LEO, I was proud to carry a S&W duty pistol and a back up/off duty S&W revolver. Those firearms were made over 30 years ago and I've never had a problem with either of them. I am not a fan of this type of barrel setup and the constant push to save a nickel is going to cost these companies lots of dollars. They're charging enough money for these firearms and whatever they are saving isn't worth ruining the company over. I'm looking forward to your review of this revolver in future videos. Thank you very much.
My MP 340 is at the factory now. The scandium frame is missing more metal than my aluminum J Frame that's 5-6 times older. We'll see if they say it's normal wear and tear or fix it. I expect it to take well over a month, it's been gone almost a month now.
@hrfunk well, I hope so. I just looked at the email and by the time the gun shop shipped it, they have only had it since the 17th of January. So,I guess only two weeks so far. I figured it didn't hurt to send it, so we'll see.
@@hrfunkthey want $220 to fix it. Just got the bill in the mail today. I'm not paying for them to refinish a POS and put a grip on because they put creep crap furniture on their guns now. They think it's normal for a gun made from a metal they knew was garbage (the steel piece above the cylinder gal tells me they knew it was soft) to have significant metal wear in 5 years. They also know their grips are crap because they aren't even covered.
@@commenter4799 I’m sorry to hear that. I was hoping they would do better for you. Have you considered calling customer service to discuss it with them?
@@hrfunk I called them just to tell them to send it back. They are going to say it's normal wear and tear and point out they don't cover grips. Maybe I'll see how much wear a revolver can wear before there is catastrophic failure and sue them if I survive, lol.
This past year, I bought a G43 for CC It couldn't get through either one of its factory magazines without a failure to feed, and sometimes multiple fans per mag Almost a year later, the gunshop owner (who was nice enough to give me a store credit for the cost) says she still hasn't been reimbursed or seen the gun returned
I’m glad they got you taken care of. I know how frustrating that can be and agree with you about QC across all industry and services. You’re going to enjoy that 19 carry comp I’m sure because I really like mine. Good stuff sir.
I used to own a Model 627 from the PC. I liked the idea of the gun but I have to say that the PC’s contribution to its quality was up for interpretation. By comparison, at the time, I owned a Taurus Model 617. While the difference in the price between these two revolvers was significant, the Taurus had better lockup than the PC 627. These days it’s all about dealing with disappointment. The fact you have to return something for quality issues that came from the very department you paid to give your better quality to begin with…is sad.
Thanks for the update, unfortunate but glad you got it back in what appears to be really good condition. Like you said it should have been that way to begin with.
I am an S&W collector, and, like you, a S&W fan for many decades, but I have not purchased a NEW revolver from S&W since 2003, and the last few NEW revolvers I bought were all PC products. No 2 piece barrels or Hillary holes. I am disappointed to see what has happened to S&W revolvers. I did purchase a new S&W Shield in 2017 and a S&W M&P Bodyguard .380 in 2017 (when they were actually giving rebates on them!) But not a revolver. FWIW, you can still purchase old school S&W quality for about the same price as you pay for these "new designs". Less, if you find some good deals (they're out there) I LOVE my 1974 vintage S&W Model 19 with 2.5" barrel. I can sure understand the desire to semi-retire yours and replace it with a newer gun, but I am not impressed with the new ones. I'm glad you got your revolver fixed and hope you enjoy it for many years!
I love my older ones too. As you know, however, they are almost irreplaceable at this point in time. For that reason I would like to limit my carrying and shooting of them so as to preserve their condition. This new revolver is intended for routine carrying and shooting, which is why I don’t mind the matte finish, and the blemish that is the integral lock.
@@hrfunk Because I retired to a year 'round warm climate my old Model 19, 2.5" is no longer a regular carry handgun for me, so it's "carry use" is greatly limited by that fact. On the few days a year I can wear a jacket or sweater for concealment, I do carry the Model 19, or a full sized 1911, or a Browning High Power, but it amounts to, maybe, a dozen days a year. I still shoot it occasionally, almost always with .38 Special wadcutter loads. I understand your reasoning, and it's a good idea.
Glad you've gotten your Revolver back and that it's been repaired properly. Looking forward to your review of it! I think if I ever decide to buy another S&W M19, I'll look for an older, used but nice, one. I may just opt for a S&W 586 instead. Hope that S&W and all the other Firearm Companies are listening to your comments!
It’s even worse than people might think. I just bought the same exact model on Jan 4th of this year. Mine wouldn’t fire. Severe case drag. I genuinely think they aren’t even test firing and if they are they aren’t using magnum rounds. The thing is they don’t produce many of these PC wheel guns. Why can’t you just check your custom line up for quality before shipping? Cherry on top when I called smith the guy said it needed to be broken in. Shoot 200 rounds he says. This is after I explained the issue. He is going to get someone hurt I’m glad I know better. They have my gun I have yet to shoot, it’s been four weeks now.
I feel your pain. On the upside, since my revolver was repaired, it has become one of my favorite firearms. I hope you have a similar experience. Best of luck!
@@hrfunk well I have an update on my revolver. Smith got it back in just under 1 month. I would applaud that but I can’t give them credit for being fast at fixing a gun that had no business leaving in its condition. I just got it back and it has even worse dings and marks on the inside of the cylinder than yours did in the video…. Unbelievable. They literally don’t care 🤷♂️
How are you sir, I recently purchased a model 57 that has all kinds of issues. I'm not crazy about shipping it back to Smith & Wesson because you never know what could happen in the mail glad to hear your experience was pretty good. Did they ship it straight back to you or did you have to go through an FFL. Thanks for any help
I’ve only had one American made car in my life, and won’t have another, it nearly killed my wife when the chassis separated due to failed bolts that were not corrosion resistant. The company actually recalled the bolts in Northern states, but not ours. Never mind we lived in the mountainous part of a southern state where they used lots of salt. All you can do is vote with your dollar, try to buy quality and hold them to it like you did. Companies are burning their brand loyalty to make a quick buck. Some will stick to dying brand (Delorean?) until they go down with it. Not me, I’ll drop them like a hot potato if the cease to produce quality!
I just picked up a model 60 with scratches on the front sight and deep scratches on the cylinder release ... its prob not worth sending it in but its a bummer that this makes it thru quality control...i also love S&W but its a damn shame...
This video was 2 years old when I watched it. It is sad to say, but we are still seeing this trait today. At the beginning of 2024, I had to send my 457 MTR CZ back for repairs. CZ took 3 1/2 months to return it to me. They associated the extended time it took for the repairs to their acquiring Colt, and somehow, the merging of the two companies created the problem. Every correspondence said 6 to 8 weeks for repairs. I would receive a weekly generic email stating my firearm was in the queue and would be worked on in the order it was received. After 6 weeks, I wasn't even getting those notifications from them. Like so many things in our country, we are seeing that companies don't seem to consider their customers as being important. Electronics are taking the personal touch away and seriously degrading this relationship. I can only hope that things can be turned around and we can be that country again that others strive to be like.
In Canada my last S&W was also a turd rite out of the box, broken and unshootable in less than 50 rounds. Back and forth twice until they decided to replace it. That took a year and one day. I will never buy S&W again and I learned to shoot on them. They take your money and then, nothing.
Very sobering video…unfortunately. I purchased a LE trade in 4046 from a pawnshop a few years back. I always wanted one in my collection since it was my first duty handgun. It was in good shape but my “OCD” kicked in and wanted it perfect. I sent it to S&W to get refurbished and bead blasted. It took about 3 months to get back and it was not cheap. Went shooting with it and it had some serious extraction problems. I was livid. Called S&W and they were very pleasant since their customer service is amazing, but I had to send it back. They called me from the testing range to tell me it was working well but they were going to change the extractor on it. I shot it upon return and it worked perfectly for 99 rounds. My last 100th round failed to extract lol. I’m hoping it was a fluke. I need to get it back out and test it again. Anyways…great video and S&W should be ashamed for letting that out of their factory.
The 4046, IMO was THE WORST S&W model I ever shot. When we transitioned from 686, the one I was first issued had a complete failure on the last day of the transition course. I was issued a different, unfired, pistol for duty the next day. Needless to say, I was leery as the 1st one failed after only 300 or so rounds. The DA only trigger pull was miserably long & the non-adjustable sights shot about a foot low at 15 yards. I wanted to carry that 686, which I bought as surplus, the whole time, but NOOOOO, current issued guns only. When we later changed over to Glock 22s, I turned down the 4046 offer as I had plenty of paperweights. I bought the Glock when we upgraded to newer Gen models. I love old style S&W revolvers, especially the old counterbored cylinder models. Not sure I would ever buy a new one.
@@williamgaines9784 my issued one worked really well actually. We shot a good amount in the academy, which I was fortunate of. I shot several perfect scores with it. With that said, I can understand why it’s not a popular model. I just got mine out of nostalgia.
@@maskedman1980 my second "worked", but with the issues previously mentioned. The one that broke was on target, and I would have preferred it back after repair, but, alas, no such luck.
I just bought a 686+ performance center 2.5 inch snubbie. I noticed my barrel crowning has a big nasty dent in it. Pretty upset considering its a 1200 dollar revolver. I will be calling customer service first thing in the morning when they open and request they correct this. I dont know who they're hiring for quality control, but maybe they need to retrain them. This is ridiculous.
@@hrfunk I agree. Also their turn around time is insanely long. 4-5 weeks they quoted me. I had to send a Sig in for repair and it was back to me within 5 days. They need to up their game.
This is an MBA disease. I have 40 years in the industry, 30+ in high tech, I have seen the development of that mentality. Executives are now compensated and accounted for based on quarterly bottom line. Their annual bonuses are also short-term performance. There is very little incentive to look into the future. Executives slash costs, lower quality, jack up short term profits, collect their obscene bonuses, and leave. The whole system needs to be restructured, but by now you have the same MBAs running everything (including our country), so they have no interest in changing that. They sit on Boards of Directors and actively seek out their buddies from other companies. In return, those will do the same for them. The amount of incompetence at the executive level is staggering (and yes, I am at the director level, so just one step below, can see it clearly with all its warts).
And I would add too many manager and executive positions that have nothing to do with the core mission of the company.
@@pjford5254 Yep. Don't get me started on what HR Departments have become these days -- woke policies enforcement centers. Half the people in HR departments are not only useless, but actually harmful to the success of the company.
The same applies in the government space.
Yes and then you wake up and your Remington. At this point knights armament and Glock are literally the only two brands I can say I would blindly trust out of the box. Everything is is a gamble on your life. Test your guns before you carry because I have got two from smith that would both have gotten me killed if I hadn’t learned they left the factory defective.
Man!!! You hit the Nail Right On The Head...EVERYWHERE IN THIS Country!...also add DIB now as well. Doomed, like watching Rome fall once again.
As you state, the fact that these defects made it past quality control is symptomatic of the times we are in, and it is not limited to the firearms industry either. I am glad that Smith did the right thing and made you whole again.
I bought a jm pro 625 back in 2005 and the cylinder wasn't even bored out to 45 caliber its a 45acp revolver it was also from performance center you couldn't even put cartridges in it wtf
@@MrLwr4444 Wow. I wonder how they would have test fired it. Was it a revolver designed to fire more than one round (like 45 colt and 45acp)?
I had a similar experience with S&W Warranty Repair. My M&P was dropping the magazine every second or third round. I sent it in and was told it would take 8 weeks. I got it back 8 weeks later and it now works flawlessly. I'm glad it is now working properly but I agree it took way to long. Have a great day.
Thanks Keith. I’m glad your M&P is working now.
A highly encouraging title, sir. One can never haves too many high quality revolvers at hand.
Four out of Six S&W guns I've purchased over the past five years have gone back for different issues. Components with blemishes, forcing cone issues and scratches on stainless guns out of the box. It's disappointing and has made me look to other manufacturers. As you pointed out, having your repair department so backed up is a bad sign in and of itself.
Damn, I'd stop buying them after I got 2 bad one's. I normally don't care too much about aesthetics, but the company should... and selling guns with obvious damage would definitely tarnish my opinion of their products.
100% Correct.@@xtreme4stringbass
It's great to hear you got it back & all appears well. I agree w/you regarding your CS experience/impressions, too. I had a similar issue a few months ago & it seemed all the corporate entity cared about regarding my CS experience was "Problem identified, problem corrected", with no regard for how, why, or how frequently CS issues were arising.
That’s what I was getting at. Not even so much as a “We’re sorry” note in the box.
Companies need to remember the fate of AMF Harley Davidson.
True, the bowling balls were crud.
I bought one last year before seeing your vid, and now I notice similar defects as you describe. Overall, I was disappointed with the gun, but my biggest gripe is the trigger. I don’t mind the trigger-pull as much as I dislike the trigger-return. If I buy another revolver, it won’t be S&W. Keep up the good work, you’re one of my “go to” guys for info and opinions.
Chief, the S&W you bought this Revolver from is NOT the S&W of yesteryear! They have left it the customer/owner to do the final QC inspection. I don't believe you are totally correct about this happening solely because of the high demand for firearms these days. There was plenty of demand (probably more ) during years of war, foreign and domestic conflict and when EVERY LEO in the USA carried a Revolver. I do not remember this issues in this high a count back then. I believe is is more to do with the fact that the pencil pushers running the Company are not as concerned with QC as they are with making their share holders smile. I am a HUGE VINTAGE S&W aficionado (have a relatively nice vintage S&W collection) and have not experienced the sloppiness, carelessness, poor workmanship, lack of caring etc. that has been prevalent at the S&W Factory for 20+ years now with vintage models. I have personally witnessed this when I was at a private Factory tour back in 2008. I saw many parts of the Factory never opened to the public! Not to say there was never a bad apple that slipped through 20, 30, 40+ years ago - but now it seems like it is the rule and not the exception. Unfortunately, there is not one single current production S&W firearm I would buy - not a one! When I get a hankering for a "new to me" S&W", I seek out a 97% - 99% condition vintage model and have not been disappointed yet! Quite sad, quite pathetic the way things are now with S&W and most other manufacturers now days. It seems no one is exempt! :( :(
Correct. Could not agree more
I think current customers are a significant part of the problem. There are so many new/first time gun buyers who have no idea what to look for, plus so many firearms are bought by people who wouldn’t even see these flaws. In 1960, no company could get away with Quality Control flaws like this. But think about the Pinto/Vega years of Detroit cars. By now the bean counters ruin so many products.
At least Smith & Wesson fixed the issues. I have a new Colt King Cobra with a hammer notch defect that “customer service” refused to acknowledge as a problem. Never again Colt, never again.
Well said, it's all about the bottom line.
S&W has had QC problems for quite some time, my friend. This is not a new phenomenon.
Back when Bangor Punta owned S&W I was managing a large gun store. I saw some real garbage coming in at that time. But, I also saw this type of garbage coming in from Colt, too. I remember one revolver that had the barrel completely rusted up and another one that the crane was partially opened and wouldn't close. I don't remember which was S&W and which was Colt, but both were top of the line models. All looked like they came from a third world cottage industry. We started calling the Colt representative Frito Bandito when he visited the store because the same holding company owned Frito Lay and Colt. The Bango Punta company in Brazil owned S&W. Democrats were in power, prices were surging and nobody cared about anything except smoking dope and drawing a pay check. Ruger was a big exception to the rule. They turned out good quality through all this. Winchester went to hell in a hand basket. Weatherby started making autoloading shotguns with beautifully finished wood and an aluminum receiver. And now it seems like we are headed that way again. Maybe the attitude with turn around some in January.
Morning HR from W. Pa. Glad you kept all the snow over there yesterday. My first model 19 had a great action and a beautiful blued finish and cost about $180. How times have changed.
Great video! I own three Model 10's, circa 1965 (2" BB, 4" taper-barreled, 4" BB), a 642 Airweight, two Hand Ejectors, a 457, 6946, Bodyguard .380, and a Shield Plus. Great guns! Smith took really good care of me when my Bodyguard had a creeping pin. Two weeks turnaround. Walther, in Fort Smith, AR, and Glock in Smyrna, GA, have really great customer service as well. I'm sorry for your experience on such a high-grade order!
Thanks Marcus. Stay tuned for the review video.
Any performance center item had to go threw the upgrade dept and should never be less than perfect
I agree.
I just bought a Model 27 Classic that's going to have to go back to the Mother Ship. Out of the box, the B/C gap isn't right and the lock up fails on one of the charge holes. Very disconcerting. I am sure S&W will remedy the situation, but there's zero excuse for guns at that price point going out the door without being thoroughly inspected.
I agree. Thanks for watching!
I had a problem with mine as well. There was a problem with the ejector/yoke and it prevented a good lock up. They repaired it as they did for you and it came back 100% reliable. I paid $1200 for it and was very disappointed I couldn't enjoy it right out of the box. Like you S&W .357s were my dream guns. Then I added the K frames to the mix for their lighter frames and shootability. I still love them all and shoot them whenever I can.
Since mine returned from S&W, it is becoming one of my favorite wheelguns. I hope you’re enjoying yours as well! Thanks for watching.
Thanks for the update video. I recently purchase my first revolver. The 627-5 (8) shot performance center. The cylinder stop notches are already showing raw metal and the cylinder stop it self is showing massive metal. All brand new out of box never fired. I oiled it and dry fired with snap caps and the cylinder notches are showing even more. I’m disappointed as I spent $1600 usd on this revolver and don’t want to send it back. I’m in California so I already had to wait a long time to clear for the gun and sending it back is gonna break my heart. --I feel they are rushing products now a days. They are probably short staffed and pulling stafff front the normal production line. / I’m in the 39-45 age range, register nurse and navy veteran from 99-03. I’ve seen attention to detail and what S&W is putting out is not good. I even own their stock
I’m so pissed, I want to learn gun smithing so I can go work in the gun plant. To put out more than top tier products. As time progress and America changes… S&W and the revolver will be the symbol of American Masculinity and Heritage
That’s too bad. I would suggest that if your timing and lock-up is still good, you might be OK. A little wear to those parts is normal.
Mine came out of the box perfect.
Just like the 642, 640, 66, and the 69. The K-22, 19, and 29 are old guns, but I found them like new in the boxes.
There is a video on here of the master smiths putting the Performance Center guns together. I was astonished that I never once saw a torque wrench in anyone‘a hands. I’m an old aircraft mechanic and we rarely ever tightened a nut without a torque wrench. So that explains a lot of the cracks on the housings of a lot of these guns I’ve seen in other videos. I don’t care how often you do a job, no one has a calibrated wrist or elbow. I found this gun used in a local pawn shop and whoever owned it before me was a barrel cleaning expert! There was nothing in the barrel. No fowling and no marks. It has to have been shot. No one pays this kind of money for a gun and never shoots it. The cylinder is just as meticulously cleaned. There are some minute handling marks but this gun is clean. Not a scratch or dent in the wood grips either. So I took them off and had a set of rubber grips in a drawer and put them on. The tritium front site is weak. Might order a new one. But the trigger is amazing. I’ve done a ton of trigger jobs in my 50+ years of shooting and tinkering on guns and the only one I can compare it to is the new Colt King Cobra I just sold. It was so light you had to video yourself shooting it because you don’t feel the trigger! 😂😂. I also did a good job on a Ruger GP100 that is 2 lbs on both double and single action. I’ve even got a few DA pulls at 1.85 lbs and it still has the factory hammer spring. No light strikes! But I do love this gun and I hate hearing you had trouble with yours. That’s just unacceptable. Fortunately for me I didn’t have any of these issues. The barrel tightening lugs look perfect on mine. Hopefully someone has informed the “master” smiths to use common sense and grab a torque wrench now. Guys think that just because they do something 50 times a day, every day, that they can just feel it. I’m sure there may be some that can, but I’ve never met one. Many times we double checked a torque and they were way off when someone didn’t use a torque wrench. And not by just a few pounds. Usually 30-50 pounds off either too tight or not tight enough. I bought an AR online once and I took the barrel nut off by hand. It had an inspection sticker on it too! Thanks for posting these videos. Very interesting!!!
Glad S&W took care of it for you. The time it took for you to get it back is what I have experienced with the S&W. When the Shield first came out I bought one new right away. When cleaning it after the first range trip, I found the sear deactivation lever (the little yellow lever in the mag well) laying on the table. I had no idea what it was at the time. I called S&W and they took it back, fixed it and got it back to me in about 3 weeks. Later I figured out the only way that could have just fallen out is they did not install the pin that holds it when they built it.
I have dealt with Sig and CZ claims as well. Sig is very quick with tunr around. CZ had my P01 for about 6 weeks and then just sent me a new gun since they could never get parts. I have also used FN warranty. They were pretty good to deal with as well and got my pistols back much faster than S&W. However, they made me pay shipping on a pistol I bought used.
I want to get a model 19 2.5" barrel performance center.
I hope you find one.
A few years ago, I sent my 1987 686 with 8 3/8" barrel to S&W for a voluntary recall issue. It took them over a month to return it. When I got it back I noticed that they moved my rear sight almost as far to the right as it could go. My barrel was not lining up straight either. I called them and they weren't exactly friendly about it. There is NO WAY it happened when I shipped it because it was ridiculously over boxed and packed. You could have drop kicked that box down the street & it couldn't have done that. They obviously messed it up and tried to hide it by moving the sight to compensate. Unbelievable. I sent it back again & finally got them to fix it for free using the manufacturers guarantee (as I remember). I have had exactly the opposite experiences with Ruger customer service. I love S&W products but that left a very bad taste in my mouth.
I can understand why.
What was the recall issue?
@@keithhartman9946 It was an old recall regarding the possibility of the gun jamming the cylinder so you couldn't get it open. It had happened to me 2-3 times over the years. Once the gun cooled down I could open it.
I remember that issue. It was with the very early 686’s as I recall.
@@jefflang6271 Thanks.
Sounds like it could be the same issue as with the first 586s . The hole where the firing pin came through the backing plate was too big.
I hear a lot of younger shooters claim that revolvers aren't as reliable as pistols. Poor quality control is part of it. The other problem of course is a stunning lack of maintenance.
That’s just nuts. I’ve probably fired 12,000-15,000 rounds through my revolvers in the past 6 years and have had zero malfunctions.
@@876mpr my academy class had perhaps 40 folks from many different departments. We fired thousands of rounds with zero stoppages. That said the weapons were inspected before issue and we kept them extremely clean.
@@ftdefiance1 I believe it. I shoot handloads with cast bullets exclusively and always remove the cylinder and thoroughly clean each time they’re fired.
Totally agree that any new gun, let alone a Performance Center, should be of top quality. That being said I bought a 1979 Model 10 at a pawn shop with a worn out main spring. I called S&W customer service to buy a new spring. I was told the spring was free and it showed up 48 hours later. No questions asked , not even the serial number. I am a Smith fan for life, or at least until I have a bad experience.
That’s the kind of service I used to expect from them. May I ask how long ago they sent you that spring?
@@hrfunk It has been about 7-8 years. Back when you could buy a nice 3 inch Model 10 for $150 out the door.
@@scottperson9487 I had a feeling it was a few years ago. That’s the customer service I used to expect from them.
Very glad they resolved your problem. Looking at picking up the same revolver for similar reasons.
Thanks. Me too. If you get one be sure to let me know what you think of it.
You got it and will do sir. God bless as well!
Great video, thanks. I've purchased the same revolver and love it!
My local gunsmith shop ALWAYS has a backlog of at least 2-3 weeks for even the simplest task.
Can't imagine how big of a pile of repairs places like S&W or KelTec has to deal with.
The question becomes: why do they have such a big pile that needs repairing?
I know a lot of people rush to pick up a firearm ordered, and that you should be able to count on quality control, but that just isn't the case with almost every manufacturer. From Glocks to high-end AKs to even an AR 15 parts kit, I have had issues. Luckily the only problem I've ever had with a Smith and Wesson Performance Center model revovler was light primer strikes. By removing the handle and ever so slightly tightening the tension screw, I was able to fix it. But yes, usually I'll take about 10 minutes and physically inspect the firearm, field strip and all and check for anything out of the ordinary whether it's cosmetic or structural and if it's not up to par I refuse the transfer. It is a headache but necessary. The bad part is most people don't bring a full set of gunsmithing tools to really inspect the firearm and problems usually show up at the range or at a later date.
I believe your comments are very well said and we’ll placed . And very valid. American gun manufacturers are a blessing to us and to fail in quality is not a option for us as buyers at1000 dollars for a revolver when a Canik is high quality and half the price and come with 2 to 3 magazines to get 1 is a fight nowadays so I think you my friend are on point again
Thank you Bernie!
I had to return a new J frame PC revolver. The first time I pulled the trigger it stuck to the rear. Smith and Wesson was great and it was returned in perfect condition. But I agree, when you pay a premium for a PC series weapon from S&W it should be perfect when it leaves the performance center. That said, I really like my 637.
Excellent a resolution and fast too, glad it's a S&W and not a COLT, MONTHS IN TERMS OF REPAIR AND THEN BROKE AGAIN.
I think that's why they are called CZ Colt now.
I sure hope CZ acquired them, may turn out better revolvers and improve service. I understood they were or have acquired Colt my 3" Cobra broke 2X just doing dry fire. Last time they were not going to work on it from what my gun dealer told me. His gunsmith put in modified Wolfe springs seemed to cure issue. Trigger would not return.
@@sgtmajtrapp3391 That's why I won't buy a Colt.
@@sgtmajtrapp3391 Yes hopefully .
I enjoyed following the repair to your S&W. I'm glad it was resolved to your satisfaction. I have a question unrelated to the repair. How do you clean your revolver without damaging the finish. I would like to purchase a S&W model 19, just like the one you purchased, except I'm concerned I may damaging the finish when I clean it. And information you provide on cleaning this pistol would be great appreciated.
Thank you.
With care, the cleaning process won’t damage the revolver’s finish. It would probably take a dedicated video to demonstrate the process. Maybe I’ll produce one in the future.
Good morning HR!!! A Ferrari shouldn't ship with a flat tire, end of story!!! Per our discussion, I can see why shooters are scouring the countryside, madly searching for the S&W guns of yore from the eighties on backwards, when the old crew was running the show, i.e., men building guns instead of machines, and when accountability was a real thing. Keep up the great thorough and fair-minded reviews as ever!!!
What I find disheartening is that S&W in particular has changed their guns extensively to reduce hand fitting and manufacturing time. Examples are not pining the barrel, not countersinking the chambers, and forgoing the deep bluing process. The shrouded barrel is less expensive than a solid milled barrel. They should have, therefore, plenty of resources for QC.
I was at my local gun store yesterday. They certainly have plenty of guns in stock, so that means the industry has overcome the shortage and associated backlog. Regardless, there shouldn’t have been any QC issues with your gun. However, every business knows that only a few customers would have returned an item for repairs, and it’s often cheaper to handle the repairs instead of having proper QC procedures.
There are plenty of guns because people are spending all of their money on ammo instead of firearms.
You just described what is apparently a religion at Taurus. NEVER AGAIN!
Unfortunately, such a practice may come at the expense of loosing repeat customers.
Id have no problem with them cutting cost that way on their regular lineup. Completely unacceptable from their Performance Center however. I see it like the guitar industry; I expect base models to have the bare minimum and custom shop to be hand crafted.
@@ryanespinoza7297 You will never have to call on your guitar to save your life! Your attitude that, "it is OK for only the Performance Center guns to work properly, because I can afford them" is both callous and irrational.
My experience with a Smith Carry Comp was very similar to yours, except I had to send it back a second time to repair the repairs. It took over 6 weeks each time. In the end, it still wasn’t quite right, but I wasn’t going to send it back a third time. However my 586 runs like a charm. All I can say is beware of the Performance Center.
It’s too bad your Carry Comp had to go back twice and it still had issues. That’s a sad commentary.
@@hrfunk definitely not what I expected when I paid $1100 for a revolver.
One of the most aggravating things there is - is when you have a problem with an S&W gun and the fan boys go ballistic if you've had issues and blame you or your marksmanship, and yes S&W quality control is not what it used to be. In 2015 I bought an SD9-VE that had irregular milling in the barrel and a snaggle tooth hanging. The polymer frame was also warped. It should have never left the factory, but S&W customer service sent it back saying there was nothing wrong.
After that experience, I had a new Model 64 with a clocked barrel, the vaunted two piece barrel that was supposed have taken care of that problem. I sent a very detailed letter with the gun and this time it went to the right person and three months later I got it back in very good shape.
I have other S&W firearms that had issues. One was a gen 1 M&P 9. Another was a Shield in 9. Others have been great. Out of the 8 new S&W firearms I've bought over the last seven years, 4 had issues, and 3 of those I got rid of. While I own a couple of Sport II AR's I like, I absolutely refuse to buy another one of their polymer pistols. Overall, I'm still an S&W fan, but they definitely need to up their game on the quality control of what leaves the factory.
Over the past 20 years or so I’ve probably sent 10 firearms back to S&W for various issues. Some were PD guns and some were mine. This is the first time I got the feeling they really didn’t care, and this was certainly the longest turn-around time.
I bought two performance center EZ's one 380 acp and one 9MM. The 380 was well done the 9MM had a bad trigger assembly regarding reset having failures. My experience was the exact same as yours as far as return and turn around. The trigger pull is still gritty. I believe they just dropped in another trigger and sent it back.
Great video update! You made me look more closely at my PC 586. I guess I got a good one😊. Thanks again for the great info.
You’re welcome. Thanks for watching!
Its interesting to me that out of all of the S&W revolvers I've ever had, the only ones I've ever had any issues with came from the Performance Center. Every single PC gun I've had, came with issues off the shelf. The last two (325TR and 460) both squeaked like the front suspension on a 1976 Pinto after dry firing just a few times. I pulled the side plate on the 460 and it, no joke, was full of metal dust -- like they'd left it laying open near a grinding wheel while someone was grinding steel. They're all good now, but like you said, its a hassle to get them to an acceptable point -- especially considering they came from the Performance Center. Semper Fi!
Semper Fi Mike. Stand by for the review video.
I bought a model 29-10 classic 4" barrel on 3/3/2023 brand new and when I got it home from my ffl I cleaned it with ballistol after wiping down I noticed the bluing came off. I sent it back to smith and wesson it came back in a month in perfect condition smith and wesson did a great job
I love a story with a happy ending.
@@hrfunk I really love smith and wesson revolvers I really want to 586 L comp.
I like your reviews. Do you have e a review on your model 19 carry comp ? If so I willook for it
@@boricuaarecibo9259 I actually have a couple of them. Here are some links: th-cam.com/video/wrmaCiVHBNk/w-d-xo.html
@@boricuaarecibo9259 th-cam.com/video/J-ekCssT9W0/w-d-xo.html
@@boricuaarecibo9259 th-cam.com/video/1YBCQlwjGLY/w-d-xo.html
The face of the cylinder looks dull around the holes, where apparently they ground down the tooling marks that you had complained about. It would have been nice if they polished the face for a consistent finish.
I think what you saw is just carbon residue from when they test fired it.
@@hrfunk OK, hope you're right. I'm sure it will shoot fine.
Was thinking the exact same thing. They didn't even label the cylinder repair on the receipt.
Excellent video! I think, it's good that you have this Channel, this is strong platform you can use to highlight a Gun Company's success and failures! I'm glad S&W Costumer Service stepped up and did their job. I had a 586 Carry Comp which, I sold. I regret it! However, in it's place, I purchased a new Model Colt Python, 2021. I hope I'm not kicking myself later. I'll keep you informed! LOL! Best of luck!
Thanks Don. Same to you!
Completely agree. I did warranty work for them in the 1980s through the 1990s until they stopped having warranty centers
which was due to how much more consistent the CNC process and later the use of MIM parts made their products. In the intervening years something was progressively lost, the intangible sense of "awe" when you open the box and take a look.
It is far more labor intensive to make a barrel from a forged piece of steel than using a barrel and shroud but it is a much finer example of the gun making art. The real "proof of the pudding" is that it is highly doubtful that anyone that has "pinned and recessed" Model 19 would ever consider trading it for a new model.
I've got to say that I miss the days of the local warranty centers. There was one within easy driving distance of my home, and if I had a problem with a S&W firearm I could simply drive there and drop it off. The repair was usually completed quickly, and I would receive a phone call informing me when I could pick it up. I much preferred that to the drama of having to ship a firearm all the way back to the factory and then wait weeks or months for it to return.
@@hrfunk I truly miss being able to perform that service and putting the customer at ease.
I'm a big fan of S&W myself. However, I bought one of these Nov. of 2023. It was so marked up I'd swear it was used. The trigger looked like it suffered from a bad heat treatment, or like it was used and poorly cleaned. The cylinder had the line you mentioned, the overall finish was sub-par at best.Even more surprising, the sites were not aligned. I've since fixed most of these issues myself, but very poor craftsmanship in my opinion for a performance center piece. Like you mentioned, these should've never left the manufacturer with these flaws.
I hope these issues cease now that their new facility is on line.
Ihave the 2.5 one and have run about 200 rounds of 357mag thru it. I carry it every day now.
I'm really interested in getting the 586 L comp but i can't find any information on the Trigger pull weight. If the Trigger pull weight is 7 to 8 lbs. I will buy the L comp but if not i will buy a 686-6 deluxe in a 3" barrel.
Would you know what the trigger pull weight on yours?
I just checked the trigger on my Carry Comp. The DA pull is averaging 11 lbs. The SA is just over 4.5 lbs.
Yes, there's a problem with manufacturing quality and final inspection. Last year, I ordered a new M&P Shield with thumb safety. When received, the manual safety was virtually impossible to actuate. Rather than send it to S&W, I (after a few hundred difficult manipulations) took it to a gunsmith who made it maybe 50% better - but still virtually unusable in-a-pinch. So, I just live with the safety 'off.' I've seen, in another manufacturing field I'm familiar with, how those responsible for final inspections are pressured to pass virtually everything, to the point at which they just don't care anymore.
That’s sad, but I believe you.
any issues with specific ammo? I just purchase one and it shot Remington 38 125 GR and Fiocchi 38 158 GR without issues, but when I tried to shoot Armscor 38 158 GR range ammo, one out 3 would not fire. The Range guy said that ammo has really hard primers. Next issue, when I shot Buffalo Bore 140 grain 357 magnum, they fire all the time, but the casing gets so hot, it won't let the cylinder cycle to the next round and I can't even open or remove the shell, until it cools off, then I have to pry it out. I did shoot Magtech 357 magnum 125 GR with no issues. I ordered Underwood 120 GR and 180 GR loads along with Hornady 125 GR XTP, will try shooting those to see if I get any more issues and if so, I will send it to S&W so they can correct it.
They say since these PC revolvers have fine tuned triggers, they can get ammo sensitive, but I don't want an unreliable revolver.
I’ve not had those issues with mine. You might want to contact S&W and see it it should go back for inspection/repair.
I bought a Taurus 44 Magnum and it's amazing! I have S&W revolvers which I love, but I am very happy with the 44 Mag!
In my experience with Taurus revolvers, you either get a great revolver or a defective dud. I've yet to see anything in between with Taurus. If you do get a good one, it's like getting a S&W for half the price, albeit with an inferior double action trigger pull. I've had a few that I was pretty happy with, too.
@@joeblowfromidaho3642 Three brand new duds in a row from Taurus. Never again. And yes, horrible double action. (S&W isn't doing DA very well any more, either.)
Good for you! I hope that Taurus works for you for a long time.
@@davidkachel I bought a 6" Taurus (669) in 1994. The first new gun I ever bought. My girlfriend put 5/5 shots on a small yellow sticky at 25 yards with it with gunshow reloads. It has lead a leisurely life (I gave it to her) ever since with no problems. I went to Smiths when I started competing in revolver (did not trust the Taurus to take the abuse and couldn't improve the trigger enough with the coil main spring). Luck of the draw I guess. "Smith" and "Performance Center" hold no magic as names for me. I have seen too much shit
@@nomikes4392 S&W have definitely gone downhill of late. The only reason I have not bought any new revolvers from them until quite recently, is that they had models that could not be acquired otherwise, like the 69, and the 329. Otherwise, I buy older S&Ws without the very offensive Hillary hole. I am genuinely concerned that sooner or later that damned Hillary abomination will get someone killed. It has to happen sooner, or later. They do lock up, just infrequently enough to convince a lot of people who want to be convinced, that they are safe. DEFINITELY, not!
I tried to give Taurus a chance, but they blew it, in spades. I understand that some people have gotten great guns from them. Not me.
I was never a Ruger fan, but have come around recently. Ruger's medium frame 5 shot .44 special is a dream. I really wanted to hate that Ruger, but have to tell myself (only in whispers) that I might even prefer it to the 696 (I have owned a couple of 696s).
I purchased a PC Carry Comp 586 3" 7 shot about a year ago. I had two problems initially. Light primer strikes and very stiff cylinder release. At times I had to use both thumbs to open the cylinder. I agree that quality control at S&W is very poor. I won't be buying any other PC weapons from them. The extra that you pay only to have to send it back is totally unacceptable. Time to get repairs made also is excessive.
I agree. I hope they improved things after their move.
Hi, I really enjoy your videos. Thank you so much! I have this exact revolver, and I love it. Unfortunately, I think your barrel was not actually properly repaired. I can see gouge marks inside the barrel where they originally were damaged. They are symmetrical gouges, but gouges nonetheless. I could show you a picture of my barrel, and how it is pristine, if you want an example of how it’s supposed to be.
I’m fine with the way it is now. It shoots extremely well and it’s become one of my favorite wheelguns.
I was just watching your video because I just bought the same exact gun it may be look at the cylinder and I too have scratches on mine Thanks for the video I will be sending my back also.
You’re welcome. I hope the repair goes well.
Last two S&W pistols I bought it had to be sent back. Revolver Barrel canted and 9mm SD barrel was ground by hand crooked😳. Both were new bought at auction.
I am sorry to hear that. I hope they fixed them for you.
I bought a new S&W ,40 Shield and took it to the range only to find it would not go into battery with a loaded round. I also sent it back to the factory and it took seven weeks to be returned. This was in 2018.
That’s too bad. I hope it runs well today.
I'm glad to see that they corrected the issues, but you put it best in saying that it shouldn't have made it past QC in the first place. Especially considering that this is a Performance Center model. Good customer service is always appreciated, but not needing to interact with the company's customer service right off the bat is even more appreciated. Here's hoping that these manufacturers understand the importance of QC and what lackluster QC can do to a reputation that took decades to build. I'm presently in the market for a new double-action Ruger (I refuse to buy any new S&W revolver with that internal lock in it as a matter of principle). Barring the chance that I come across a used Service Six in great shape, I'm hoping that the GP100 I do end up with is good to go right out of the box.
I hope so too. Best of luck!
My problem is finding ammo to test my S&W 19 carry comp ! Great Video !
Thank you! I am fortunate to have a pretty good stockpile of .357 ammo.
Thank You for going to the trouble of posting these vids and editorializing on this issue! It IS crucial if we are to keep a viable American firearms industry. About a decade ago I was shopping for another S&W snubby revolver. I have a talent for appearing like a simple newbie, and they proudly showed me a 642 with a cylinder gap wider than a credit card! I was then finished with that shop and with S&W too.........................elsullo
Greetings Mr. Funk,
I’m currently waiting for my unfinished work to be finished!
Early November of last year, I sent my 66 combat magnum in for a trigger job, green fiber optic sight, and to align the barrel shroud with the top strap. Well imagine my “surprise” when I got it back on March 28th of this year, that’s over 4 months. I eagerly opened the box and the first thing I immediately saw, was the lack of a green fiber optic front sight! They did an excellent job on the trigger, but ignored the barrel shroud alignment request also. I called S&W and 2 days later, March 31st, they got it back to finish the work. Which has been “expedited” for me to get it back in 5 Weeks. So, almost one week down, 4 weeks to go, maybe….
Well that's obnoxious good luck this time around Makcus.
In the past 2 years-
Purchased a PC 629 Hunter. -bad crown and forcing cone out of the box. Shot two cylinders, sent back, waited for eight weeks.
PC 627 - light primer strikes with factory ammo. Screw adjustment didnt fix. Sent back. 6 weeks.
PC 19 Carry comp. (Same as reviewed revolver) mangled muzzle, cylinder looked like it was dropped 10ft. Sent back. 8 weeks.
Never again will I purchase a new production S&W. 3 of 4 PC models ove purchased had to immediately go back for repairs. Completely unacceptable.
WOW!! Worse than I had thought, and I was already not thinking very highly of them.
I agree.
Looking forward to comparison old s new and effect on recoil of barrel cut.
So am I. As soon as I get some better weather, this little wheelie will be on the range.
Recently, I bought a new 460 XVR and discovered that about 10% of the trigger pulls resulted in light primer strikes. Small dimple in the primer and no bang. With 2 or 3 pulls of the trigger, it would finally shoot. Sent it to S&W for a fix, got it back 2 months later saying they adjusted the crane. I had a bad feeling about the fix, and took it to the range. 10% of the trigger pulls are still not shooting. They have the revolver again. I'm an optimist but I have a bad feeling about the pending results. If they can't fix this, I likely never buy any new S&W again.
Sorry to hear that Brian. I hope they get it right this time.
I recently sent a 586 and a 19 to the Performance Center (PC) for trigger tuning. Both came back with light primer strikes. I replaced the main springs myself and now have no issues. I am not impressed with the PC.
How were the actions otherwise?
@@hrfunk Very good actions. Love both of them and the nostalgia of a blued revolver. BTW, I also have a .380 EZ - best firearm ever! You have a great channel, thank you for your posts!
You are most welcome. Thanks for watching and happy Easter!
Re: your joke about bleeding S&W blue... A cop friend of mine always used to joke (absolutely deadpan), when some dirtbag would reference his mother, that "Cops don't have mothers. We're manufactured at Smith & Wesson."!
I think you are bang on with the reasons for these QC issues becoming such a common occurrence, and I would extrapolate from that that this probably ALSO explains the long turnaround on the repair. I would guess that such repair claims have ALSO become very common, and their repair department is undoubtedly up to their eyeballs in work. Glad to see, at least, that they appear to have gotten all the identified deficiencies dealt with. Looking forward to the shooting review... I'm a big fan of the K-frame revolvers. Sadly, that particular one is not one I can get, as it doesn't meet MY government's ludicrously restrictive criteria for legality.
My old boss used to say there is never time to do it right, but there's always time to do it over.
Thanks Dale. The review video is already in production. Stay tuned!
Friend of mine purchased a new model 66 combat magnum last week. We shot 30 rounds through it yesterday before the cylinder locked up and will no longer release. Back to Smith it goes…what do you want out of a $1,000 gun though
More than that. I hope they take care of that problem quickly.
QC is a thing of the past with these companies!
I had a S&W Performance Center gun, 640 Pro, that the barrel was a good 1/8 inch off center.
Called S&W and they also said a month and a half backlog on repairs, so I fixed it myself.
Conclusion: just because it says “Performance Center” on the gun, that doesn’t mean shit! Oh, and I sold the gun pretty quickly too.
But, that doesn’t mean I still don’t buy S&W’s revolvers. No sir, just found a used 19 carry comp in .357, but I made sure I checked everything under the sun before purchasing.
Fool me once, shame on you, fool you twice, shame on me.
Glad she’s back in good order and shooting those mean old people target gang.
I wholeheartedly agree with you Howard in that how does a manufacturer let something like that go out the door ? Who is not doing their job ?? Every one of S&Ws products should be PERFECT before they go out the door ! I personally have had two defective revolvers in the past from S&W. One was a 10 shot .22 revolver that came from the factory way out of time and as a result I will never buy another 10 shot .22 revolver from any mfr. because I came away with the impression that because the ratchets on the back of the cylinder are so closely spaced that it may not be possible to properly time them [ ?? ], I dunno. Even though I like the idea of a 10 shot DA revolver. The other snafu I purchased from S&W was a 6 inch barrel model 686 plus. That darn thing, when I got it home and examined it, the barrel was threaded into the frame at a very acute angle. How I missed that when I purchased it, I dunno. And I have an acute eye for detail, but I will tell you this : I look everything over with a much sharper eye these days ! Signed, Doug.
Thanks Doug. Unfortunately, I think we have to these days. Thanks for watching!
My repair on a brand new model 66 that I talked about the last time took an excessive long time to get back also. And that would’ve been two years ago I think.
I stick to vintage mostly, every time I see that Hillary hole in my 625PC I feel a bit ashamed.
Wow, I certainly understand that. But, some of the relatively new S&W seven and eight round .357 cylinders are (I believe) all post-Hillary. Alternatively, there are always SP101’s, GP100’s and Redhawks.
I think I have a revolver with that particular blemish, but I can ignore it pretty easily. Still, I understand your aversion to it.
I bought S&W keys for all my Hillary Hole revolvers since they are used guns and did'nt come with keys.
You know, I have never needed an S&W key.
Having disassembled every on of those guns; 629, 686, 640, 317; there is no possibility for the lock to fail or set itself or do anything but remain inert.
Annoying? Yes, very much so.
But has no effect other than make better deals on an otherwise excellent used gun for me to buy.
@@Iceaxehikes I hate to disappoint you, but they do fail, and more often than S&W will admit. I had the Hillary hole in a 329, brand new from the factory, never fired, lock up repeatedly while dry firing it. It was so repeatable that I finally realized I could make it lock up at will, by holding it at a specific angle. Disable it.
@@Iceaxehikes What a stupid thing to say. Why would anyone waste time making up stories about something they don't like? You sound like one of the S&W fanboys from the S&W online forum (not the company forum) who are obsessed with hiding the truth and won't allow any posts regarding the Hillary hole. My 329 did exactly what I said it did, in exactly the way I said it did it. And if you work on old revolvers, then you haven't worked on a S&W with a Hillary hole. There aren't any old ones!
I work on S&Ws too, my own, and there is absolutely nothing about "taking them apart" that would allow anyone to know whether or not locking up is possible. You could stare at a disassembled S&W revolver for a year and not be able to determine that.b You should think, before you speak.
HR I finally found mine today ,oh I am a very happy owner and I did look to see any issues before I bought it very closely
Good! I’m glad you didn’t have any issues.
Chief, This is excellent, at least they stood up and fixed what was wrong, other companies might have just said lump it. With the reputation S&W has, they should fix this kind of mess. Congratulations.
Thanks Travis!
The missed quality inpsection and the turnaround time were excessive, as I'm sure Smith would agree. It can't be understated how difficult it is in the current market to retain and acquire skilled personnel for ever employer,
Glad to hear that they fixed the problems. Hopefully, S&W learns that better quality control equals less backlog for the repair center.
Agreed!
I think one of the reasons we see problems like this is the lack of new workers entering manufacturing and trades and all the older skilled guys leaving to retire. All the manufacturers around me are short on labor because everyone just want to get a bachelors and do something else even though it might actually pay less. There aren't enough skilled people who REALLY know what they're doing and management usually doesn't care or listen from their ivory tower.
BINGO... basically what I was going to propose.
Too many people now think that, for example, as long as they run a reamer through something, it's good to go. But you have to use the RIGHT-SIZE reamer... VERY important! : ) They're just going through the motions, without a full understanding of what the end result should be.
I bought a brand new Smith and Wesson “Thunder Ranch “!revolver , model 22-4 about 12 years ago, Caliber 45 ACP , which used moon clips . , put about 12 rounds through it , oops ! Cylinder latch falls off . Locktite fixed that , 40 rounds later , trigger return spring breaks . All on factory ball ammo . I never could get a live person on the phone , I took it to a retired police department armorer that I knew , he replaced the trigger return spring . Ive not fired it since .700.00 + tax paper weight
I remember those revolvers. I really wanted one back when they were being made. If I were you, I would go out and shoot that thing. It’s still covered by Smith’s lifetime service contract so if anything else happens they’ll fix it. (But it might take a while).
Looking forward to the test and comparison. The reason in part I favor the older classics. Better quality.
Stay tuned Sergeant Major. The review video is in production.
How's the cylinder gap?
Thanks for your informative videos.
I've learned a few things from you.
One very important one comes to mind in regards to damaging an extractor by loading a round directly into the chamber.
I just wonder if they took metal off the face of the cylinder, thereby affecting the gap
It's very good. I'll discuss that in the upcoming review video.
I'm glad this happened to you..... I don't mean that in a bad way. You are an experienced person with firearms and you know what to expect from a good quality firearm. Younger shooters may not have noticed the issues or they may have just shrugged and accepted it. I still am seriously shocked that this revolver made it out of the factory in the condition it was in. To hear that S&W has a large backlog of firearms being repaired is a big red flag, and I agree, the time it took to be repaired was a bit excessive, especially for a brand new firearm. I am also a S&W fan and this is something that really is a turn off.
Once we see products start to live off of their reputation/name, it usually means bad things for that company in the near future. Hopefully, this will not be the case with S&W and they will right the ship before it's too late. As a retired LEO, I was proud to carry a S&W duty pistol and a back up/off duty S&W revolver. Those firearms were made over 30 years ago and I've never had a problem with either of them. I am not a fan of this type of barrel setup and the constant push to save a nickel is going to cost these companies lots of dollars. They're charging enough money for these firearms and whatever they are saving isn't worth ruining the company over. I'm looking forward to your review of this revolver in future videos. Thank you very much.
You’re welcome. The review video is already in production. Stay tuned!
@@hrfunk
Can't wait. Thanks. 👍
You diagnosed the problem. "Two piece barrel". I haven't bought a new S&W since the mid-Eighties.
My MP 340 is at the factory now. The scandium frame is missing more metal than my aluminum J Frame that's 5-6 times older. We'll see if they say it's normal wear and tear or fix it. I expect it to take well over a month, it's been gone almost a month now.
If you haven't received any reply in a month, I'd say it's pretty likely they are going to repair it. Let me know when you find out for sure.
@hrfunk well, I hope so. I just looked at the email and by the time the gun shop shipped it, they have only had it since the 17th of January. So,I guess only two weeks so far. I figured it didn't hurt to send it, so we'll see.
@@hrfunkthey want $220 to fix it. Just got the bill in the mail today. I'm not paying for them to refinish a POS and put a grip on because they put creep crap furniture on their guns now.
They think it's normal for a gun made from a metal they knew was garbage (the steel piece above the cylinder gal tells me they knew it was soft) to have significant metal wear in 5 years. They also know their grips are crap because they aren't even covered.
@@commenter4799 I’m sorry to hear that. I was hoping they would do better for you. Have you considered calling customer service to discuss it with them?
@@hrfunk I called them just to tell them to send it back. They are going to say it's normal wear and tear and point out they don't cover grips. Maybe I'll see how much wear a revolver can wear before there is catastrophic failure and sue them if I survive, lol.
This past year, I bought a G43 for CC
It couldn't get through either one of its factory magazines without a failure to feed, and sometimes multiple fans per mag
Almost a year later, the gunshop owner (who was nice enough to give me a store credit for the cost) says she still hasn't been reimbursed or seen the gun returned
I have heard some less than flattering things about Glock’s customer service.
@@hrfunk I never had until this, I have dealt with Smith & Wesson customer service before, with satisfactory results
Sorry place it with a shield 1.0
Definitely make sure it's a "tack driver"!!! It better be! I'm definitely a S/W fan myself.
I’m glad they got you taken care of. I know how frustrating that can be and agree with you about QC across all industry and services. You’re going to enjoy that 19 carry comp I’m sure because I really like mine. Good stuff sir.
Thanks Robert. Stay tuned!
The last S&W I bought was perfect in every way. Was a 25-7 ,45 Colt Model of 1989 !
That's a good one for sure! I hope you still have it.
I used to own a Model 627 from the PC. I liked the idea of the gun but I have to say that the PC’s contribution to its quality was up for interpretation. By comparison, at the time, I owned a Taurus Model 617. While the difference in the price between these two revolvers was significant, the Taurus had better lockup than the PC 627. These days it’s all about dealing with disappointment. The fact you have to return something for quality issues that came from the very department you paid to give your better quality to begin with…is sad.
Agreed.
Thanks for the update, unfortunate but glad you got it back in what appears to be really good condition. Like you said it should have been that way to begin with.
I am an S&W collector, and, like you, a S&W fan for many decades, but I have not purchased a NEW revolver from S&W since 2003, and the last few NEW revolvers I bought were all PC products. No 2 piece barrels or Hillary holes.
I am disappointed to see what has happened to S&W revolvers. I did purchase a new S&W Shield in 2017 and a S&W M&P Bodyguard .380 in 2017 (when they were actually giving rebates on them!) But not a revolver.
FWIW, you can still purchase old school S&W quality for about the same price as you pay for these "new designs". Less, if you find some good deals (they're out there)
I LOVE my 1974 vintage S&W Model 19 with 2.5" barrel. I can sure understand the desire to semi-retire yours and replace it with a newer gun, but I am not impressed with the new ones.
I'm glad you got your revolver fixed and hope you enjoy it for many years!
I love my older ones too. As you know, however, they are almost irreplaceable at this point in time. For that reason I would like to limit my carrying and shooting of them so as to preserve their condition. This new revolver is intended for routine carrying and shooting, which is why I don’t mind the matte finish, and the blemish that is the integral lock.
@@hrfunk Because I retired to a year 'round warm climate my old Model 19, 2.5" is no longer a regular carry handgun for me, so it's "carry use" is greatly limited by that fact. On the few days a year I can wear a jacket or sweater for concealment, I do carry the Model 19, or a full sized 1911, or a Browning High Power, but it amounts to, maybe, a dozen days a year.
I still shoot it occasionally, almost always with .38 Special wadcutter loads.
I understand your reasoning, and it's a good idea.
Good coffee in hand and good morning to all.
Good morning Roy. I hope you enjoy your coffee and the video.
I recently bought the 2.5” version. The cylinder seems slightly tougher than normal to release. Is this an issue?
No, it’s due to the ball-detent lock that’s been added to the yoke. I’ll cover that in my next video.
@@hrfunk Thanks!
I just watched the video. I was able to compare the difference with my 640-3. Very informative. I love my revolvers even more now. Thanks again.
This is my next revolver purchase for 2024. Glad I know what to look for.
Glad you've gotten your Revolver back and that it's been repaired properly. Looking forward to your review of it!
I think if I ever decide to buy another S&W M19, I'll look for an older, used but nice, one. I may just opt for a S&W 586 instead.
Hope that S&W and all the other Firearm Companies are listening to your comments!
I hope so too. Keep your fingers crossed.
It’s even worse than people might think. I just bought the same exact model on Jan 4th of this year. Mine wouldn’t fire. Severe case drag. I genuinely think they aren’t even test firing and if they are they aren’t using magnum rounds. The thing is they don’t produce many of these PC wheel guns. Why can’t you just check your custom line up for quality before shipping?
Cherry on top when I called smith the guy said it needed to be broken in. Shoot 200 rounds he says. This is after I explained the issue. He is going to get someone hurt I’m glad I know better. They have my gun I have yet to shoot, it’s been four weeks now.
I feel your pain. On the upside, since my revolver was repaired, it has become one of my favorite firearms. I hope you have a similar experience. Best of luck!
@@hrfunk thanks! I’m sure it will be fine when it comes back. Just wish we didn’t have to send back new firearms.
@@hrfunk well I have an update on my revolver. Smith got it back in just under 1 month. I would applaud that but I can’t give them credit for being fast at fixing a gun that had no business leaving in its condition.
I just got it back and it has even worse dings and marks on the inside of the cylinder than yours did in the video…. Unbelievable. They literally don’t care 🤷♂️
I’m sorry to hear that.mine is quick becoming one of my favorite wheelguns.
The large backlog of repairs is not a great sign. 😕
I agree.
How are you sir, I recently purchased a model 57 that has all kinds of issues. I'm not crazy about shipping it back to Smith & Wesson because you never know what could happen in the mail glad to hear your experience was pretty good. Did they ship it straight back to you or did you have to go through an FFL. Thanks for any help
They shipped it directly back to me. There does have to be an adult present to sign for the firearm when it is delivered. Best of luck!
@@hrfunk thanks so much really enjoyed the videos you put out keep them coming please
@@ericoulundsen5041 Will do. Thanks for watching!
I’m glad your revolver is back and I hope it’s everything you hoped. I can’t wait to see the comparison between it and the original!
Semper Fi!
Semper Fi Christopher. The review video is already in production!
I’ve only had one American made car in my life, and won’t have another, it nearly killed my wife when the chassis separated due to failed bolts that were not corrosion resistant. The company actually recalled the bolts in Northern states, but not ours. Never mind we lived in the mountainous part of a southern state where they used lots of salt. All you can do is vote with your dollar, try to buy quality and hold them to it like you did. Companies are burning their brand loyalty to make a quick buck. Some will stick to dying brand (Delorean?) until they go down with it. Not me, I’ll drop them like a hot potato if the cease to produce quality!
I just picked up a model 60 with scratches on the front sight and deep scratches on the cylinder release ... its prob not worth sending it in but its a bummer that this makes it thru quality control...i also love S&W but its a damn shame...
Yes it is. I hope you still enjoy your new Model 60.
This video was 2 years old when I watched it. It is sad to say, but we are still seeing this trait today. At the beginning of 2024, I had to send my 457 MTR CZ back for repairs. CZ took 3 1/2 months to return it to me. They associated the extended time it took for the repairs to their acquiring Colt, and somehow, the merging of the two companies created the problem. Every correspondence said 6 to 8 weeks for repairs. I would receive a weekly generic email stating my firearm was in the queue and would be worked on in the order it was received. After 6 weeks, I wasn't even getting those notifications from them.
Like so many things in our country, we are seeing that companies don't seem to consider their customers as being important. Electronics are taking the personal touch away and seriously degrading this relationship. I can only hope that things can be turned around and we can be that country again that others strive to be like.
I hope so too. Thanks for watching.
In Canada my last S&W was also a turd rite out of the box, broken and unshootable in less than 50 rounds. Back and forth twice until they decided to replace it. That took a year and one day. I will never buy S&W again and I learned to shoot on them. They take your money and then, nothing.
It certainly feels that way. Thanks for watching!
Both of my PC 586 l comp and PC 686 were sent back numerous times for various issues. Really sucks considering what I paid.
I know what you mean.
Very sobering video…unfortunately. I purchased a LE trade in 4046 from a pawnshop a few years back. I always wanted one in my collection since it was my first duty handgun. It was in good shape but my “OCD” kicked in and wanted it perfect. I sent it to S&W to get refurbished and bead blasted. It took about 3 months to get back and it was not cheap. Went shooting with it and it had some serious extraction problems. I was livid. Called S&W and they were very pleasant since their customer service is amazing, but I had to send it back. They called me from the testing range to tell me it was working well but they were going to change the extractor on it. I shot it upon return and it worked perfectly for 99 rounds. My last 100th round failed to extract lol. I’m hoping it was a fluke. I need to get it back out and test it again. Anyways…great video and S&W should be ashamed for letting that out of their factory.
The 4046, IMO was THE WORST S&W model I ever shot. When we transitioned from 686, the one I was first issued had a complete failure on the last day of the transition course. I was issued a different, unfired, pistol for duty the next day. Needless to say, I was leery as the 1st one failed after only 300 or so rounds. The DA only trigger pull was miserably long & the non-adjustable sights shot about a foot low at 15 yards. I wanted to carry that 686, which I bought as surplus, the whole time, but NOOOOO, current issued guns only. When we later changed over to Glock 22s, I turned down the 4046 offer as I had plenty of paperweights. I bought the Glock when we upgraded to newer Gen models. I love old style S&W revolvers, especially the old counterbored cylinder models. Not sure I would ever buy a new one.
@@williamgaines9784 my issued one worked really well actually. We shot a good amount in the academy, which I was fortunate of. I shot several perfect scores with it. With that said, I can understand why it’s not a popular model. I just got mine out of nostalgia.
@@maskedman1980 my second "worked", but with the issues previously mentioned. The one that broke was on target, and I would have preferred it back after repair, but, alas, no such luck.
At least they fixed yours they had my 317 for two months and they refused to repair it.
I’m sorry to hear that. They used to set the standard for customer service.
I just bought a 686+ performance center 2.5 inch snubbie. I noticed my barrel crowning has a big nasty dent in it. Pretty upset considering its a 1200 dollar revolver. I will be calling customer service first thing in the morning when they open and request they correct this. I dont know who they're hiring for quality control, but maybe they need to retrain them. This is ridiculous.
I keep hoping their impending move to a new facility will improve the quality of their products.
@@hrfunk I agree. Also their turn around time is insanely long. 4-5 weeks they quoted me. I had to send a Sig in for repair and it was back to me within 5 days. They need to up their game.
I agree. They used to be much better. I’m not sure what happened.