I love listening to all three of you discuss these powerful foundational and easily misunderstood doctrines! As you said, Satan does a terrific job of suggesting we fear the sacrifice, or think we don’t even have need of it. When we covenant to sacrifice Gods promise is that we may become Holy… Thank you so much!
I was definitely one of those who had to have my heart broken before I could receive a remission of my sins. And it was a doozy but if it hadn’t happened the way it did then who knows how long it would’ve taken me to realize I needed Christ. So even though my trials have been sore I am grateful for the conversion process! Christ is wonderful and merciful. Amen to everything you have said.
I really appreciate your content. I am glad to see so many people reconciling their traditional Mormon faith with their personal mystical practice. Too many people bump up against issues they can't reconcile and then leave the church, and the tribe. Even if the church leaders have been infiltrated by bad actors, I don't think we should abandon each other as a people or abandon a viable spiritual tradition.
What you've talked about has been on my mind the past few weeks regarding a broken heart and contrite spirit. What I have been doing most of my life is offering sacrifices when my heart is hard. Moroni 7 teaches that when we give a gift grudgingly it is counted as evil, even if the gift is good. But the thing is because I was sacrificing willingly I mistakenly saw it as being sincere and so never bothered to address it. If you are threatened to do something and you do it you are acting willingly but not with real intent. That is how I was unknowingly living for much of my life. Once I began to learn this I started to realize I've been trying to drive a car while constantly struggling to turn the car on. When I began offering a broken heart first before a contrite spirit, suddenly the car springs to life very willingly and the question is no longer "how do I motivate myself to keep going?" but is instead "where to next?". It's so much simpler and easier! Christ is amazing!
18:26 Ok, I’ll say it. And what I’ll say is pure testimony that has followed my own dark night of the soul, with the resulting sprouting of the Word within my heartsoil unto a true taste of redemption’s fruit which is God’s unyielding love and mercy and grace… I constantly hear different versions of the Zoramite prayer (Alma 31: 15-18) given at all of our pulpits (high and low) with the vast majority of the church giving self-congratulatory AMENS! I strongly believe that we as a church (from top to bottom) are FAR closer to the Alma 4 church than the born again examples of King Benjamin’s and Alma’s converts. You don’t see it while you’re in it. No people have ever been given a guarantee that they won’t apostasize. And if a people ever constantly reassure themselves that they can’t lapse into apostasy, it can almost be assured that already they have. If scripture and history teach us anything, it’s that institutional apostasy is inevitable. We must be born again. We must receive the true baptism of the Holy Ghost as in the Book of Acts and all through the Book of Mormon. We are not as “true” as we think we are. There is no “true and living church” or “kingdom of God” if the signs and miracles following the believers aren’t readily manifest with the fruits of redeeming love shining like lights on a hill. They saw our day and warned us. They saw that the appearance of angels would cease from among us. They saw that the holy church of God set up among the Gentiles of THIS LAND would be polluted. They saw they WE would transfigure the holy word of God. They saw we’d be full of pride, lovers of wealth, depend on men rather than God (follow the prophet), embracing whoredoms (polygamy) and murders (blood atonement) and other vain and foolish doctrines, lacking both miracles and piercing of the veil, and that WE would love of our fine temples more than we would love the poor among us. Compare Alma 4 and Alma 5 with Nephi’s warnings in 2 Nephi 28 and Moroni’s in Mormon chapter 8 and 9. I pray to see the day when we as a church allow the Spirit to convict us into realizing that we have yet to collectively emerge from the wilderness of obscurity. I fear, however, that perhaps we find ourselves on the verge of finding ourselves on the wrong side of prophecy and will lose our “talent” to a people who will make better use of it (see Ether 12: 35 and 3 Nephi 16: 10).
Here's a fun find. You can see the suzerainty treaty (formula for establishing covenant) in Alma 5. This is a rough outline: Preamble - Alma 5:3 Historical prologue - Alma 5:3-13 Terms of the covenant - Alma 5:14-30 Formal witness - Alma 5:43-49 Blessings and curses - Alma 5:31-42
And Todd, I look forward to listening to your discussion with Pastor Jeff, if that's who it was. He's had a couple of good discussions with Greg Matsen. I cannot understand why he hasn't yielded to the waters of LDS baptism yet. He's sung with the Tab Choir. Been invited here there and everywhere. Moved to Utah. For how much longer can he resist our charms, haha?! He's a stronger person than I am. One note in the presence of that choir and that would be me converted on the spot - says the woman from the UK who's sadly never been to Utah! One day.
I so enjoy these discussions and the valuable work you're doing. I listen to other Come Follow Me material which is also wonderful. In there, I hear a lot of talk about how much the Lord loves me, which I know and fully accept. I've been loved from the cradle by an angel mother and grew up in the church. But my primary concern is how I can love the Lord. I desire to FEEL love for him and that evades me. I love the gospel, love the scriptures, love the Doctrine of Christ and want as little to do with 'worldliness' as possible. Two years ago i felt prompted to fast once a week for my family, which i do. I've had two experiences in my life where I would say I was born again - burning from head to toe after a descent feeling of knowing I am nothing. It was devastating. Despite all this, I still struggle day to day to feel love for my Saviour and I really desire to. I've never stood up and testified that I love the Lord, though I am utterly committed to his gospel and can testify of many other things. I hear people express in prayers how much they love the Lord and i have holy envy. Anyway, I appreciate these frank and meaty discussions where I can attempt to view myself as I really am and approach my own veils of unbelief with a view to rending them. Thank you, thank you!!!
Maybe this will help. Everything around us shows God’s love. And our love for Him is a gift also. Pray with all the energy of your heart for the gift of Charity. When it comes, when God manifests his love to you it creates a love bond that is very powerful. I find that powerful words and music renews that love in me for my Savior. And of course my love for the Savior isn’t complete. But I ponder often when I see him will I first embrace Him or weep at his feet. These kind of thoughts soften my heart every time. Bless you for your comment and desires. ❤
If you want to feel love for God and aren't feeling it, my suspicion is that even though you feel that you fully accept God's love for you, you are nevertheless underestimating its depth, breadth, and likely its cost. The way the charity process goes is "we love [God] because he first loved us." (1John 4:19). If we are not feeling a love for God it is generally because we are missing or underestimating the depth of his love for us. We might believe in and fully accept that he feels love for us, but not be understanding the depth of his love and specifically the cost in terms of sacrifice that he paid to express that love for us. You might start by looking at your concept of what God has done for you and how costly it really was for him. Think of yourself at your lowest possible moments in life, and imagine the lowest moments, the evil, the uncleanness, the feeling of being cut off from the Lord and his love, all of the things that are the worst in your life, and imagine someone who had never experienced those things and did not need to do so choosing to experience them not merely for you, but for every human, to the fullest uttermost extent. This includes not just the justice that is denied to those who are trying to live justly when bad things happen to them through no fault of their own, but the justice that (correctly) falls upon those who have committed the most horrible, horrifying evil themselves, to an infinite depth-- to a depth no human has ever actually sunk before. It is when you understand that 1) you are actually and deservedly in the grasp of justice, 2) that mercy is extended to you, and 3) that mercy comes at an infinite and eternal cost that is not hypothetical, that you can come to appreciate God's love for you fully and begin to respond in love. Until we do all those things, we are all (all of us included) a little bit like an entitled teenager who understands and believes she is loved by her parents without any question-- but doesn't really appreciate what it costs her parents to give her all that they give, and to express that love, and thus doesn't fully value what they have done. If we can ponder on what it really cost to redeem us, and obtain a correct idea of God's character, perfection, and attributes in this way, the love for him will flood in. Properly understood, it is not a business deal or a quid pro quo. God is not bribing us with a massive eternal reward or threatening us with hellfire-- neither is a reason to obey. It is a complete expression of grace and love, at MASSIVE cost-- so much above what we ourselves have any comprehension of-- in the hope that we will reciprocate.
Thank you. Words and music combined are indeed powerful. I'm a professional musician. I've written songs about the Saviour and felt the spirit powerfully, but still feel I lack that love in my heart for him. I don't understand why. The first great commandment bothers me more than the second one! It's very strange. I trust that one day I'll be given the gift of divine love so that I can reciprocate His love for me! I'm sure if I met the Saviour tomorrow I would realise that I do love him. But can I feel so now? I'm not sure, but I will strive to pray with more energy of soul. ❤
If you aren't already (which you very well might be), I suggest taking the prophet's counsel and attending the temple as often and consistently-with exactness- as your circumstances allow while remembering not to run faster than you have strength. This has helped me to increase my love for my Savior which I haven't been able to say sincerely and with some depth until recently.
I really appreciate that comprehensive response. Thank you very much. I need to ponder your words carefully. The average UK ward doesn't have a Josh, a Todd, a Mark or a Cam. Sadly.
You guys! I can't thank you enough for the impact your insights have on my seeking to understand the gospel of Jesus Christ. I can feel the spirit of truth in what you've shared today. It's beautiful. Thank you, again.
Asking questions might make the truth more acceptable as the mind begins to see but bearing down in pure testimony comes after. Truth tellers get beat up often by those who can't bear it.The guilty taketh the truth to be hard.
30:00 - Alma 32 14 And now, as I said unto you, that because ye were compelled to be humble ye were blessed, do ye not suppose that they are more blessed who truly humble themselves because of the word?
50:25 one may submit themselves and their pride willingly on the altar. 51:45 in different words, the reason why we have pride, is because we deny grace, and think that to some degree works will save us. The only works that we can do, are the works of repentance, a broken heart and contrite spirit. It's all grace. The law doesn't save. The arm of flesh has no power to save.
16:40 Your salvation is individual. But there is a repeated theme and pattern in scripture about the group, the family. I'd say it is mostly ignored and not well understood. What place does the collective have? The family, Abraham's family, the house of Israel, remnants, the nations, saviors on Mt Zion, kings & queens, generational blessings & cursings, redemption of posterity, of Israel, the bride, etc etc.
I love listening to all three of you discuss these powerful foundational and easily misunderstood doctrines! As you said, Satan does a terrific job of suggesting we fear the sacrifice, or think we don’t even have need of it. When we covenant to sacrifice Gods promise is that we may become Holy… Thank you so much!
I was definitely one of those who had to have my heart broken before I could receive a remission of my sins. And it was a doozy but if it hadn’t happened the way it did then who knows how long it would’ve taken me to realize I needed Christ. So even though my trials have been sore I am grateful for the conversion process! Christ is wonderful and merciful. Amen to everything you have said.
Such a great discussion. Thank you ❤
I really appreciate your content. I am glad to see so many people reconciling their traditional Mormon faith with their personal mystical practice. Too many people bump up against issues they can't reconcile and then leave the church, and the tribe. Even if the church leaders have been infiltrated by bad actors, I don't think we should abandon each other as a people or abandon a viable spiritual tradition.
The Holy Ghost is at work connecting all of us to this message. Great job
Beautifully profound, real, necessary discussion and discovery. Thank you.
You guys are like sitting in on the best gospel doctrine class ever. Thanks so much. Lots to ponder!
What you've talked about has been on my mind the past few weeks regarding a broken heart and contrite spirit. What I have been doing most of my life is offering sacrifices when my heart is hard. Moroni 7 teaches that when we give a gift grudgingly it is counted as evil, even if the gift is good. But the thing is because I was sacrificing willingly I mistakenly saw it as being sincere and so never bothered to address it. If you are threatened to do something and you do it you are acting willingly but not with real intent. That is how I was unknowingly living for much of my life.
Once I began to learn this I started to realize I've been trying to drive a car while constantly struggling to turn the car on. When I began offering a broken heart first before a contrite spirit, suddenly the car springs to life very willingly and the question is no longer "how do I motivate myself to keep going?" but is instead "where to next?". It's so much simpler and easier! Christ is amazing!
18:26 Ok, I’ll say it.
And what I’ll say is pure testimony that has followed my own dark night of the soul, with the resulting sprouting of the Word within my heartsoil unto a true taste of redemption’s fruit which is God’s unyielding love and mercy and grace…
I constantly hear different versions of the Zoramite prayer (Alma 31: 15-18) given at all of our pulpits (high and low) with the vast majority of the church giving self-congratulatory AMENS!
I strongly believe that we as a church (from top to bottom) are FAR closer to the Alma 4 church than the born again examples of King Benjamin’s and Alma’s converts.
You don’t see it while you’re in it.
No people have ever been given a guarantee that they won’t apostasize. And if a people ever constantly reassure themselves that they can’t lapse into apostasy, it can almost be assured that already they have. If scripture and history teach us anything, it’s that institutional apostasy is inevitable.
We must be born again. We must receive the true baptism of the Holy Ghost as in the Book of Acts and all through the Book of Mormon.
We are not as “true” as we think we are.
There is no “true and living church” or “kingdom of God” if the signs and miracles following the believers aren’t readily manifest with the fruits of redeeming love shining like lights on a hill.
They saw our day and warned us. They saw that the appearance of angels would cease from among us. They saw that the holy church of God set up among the Gentiles of THIS LAND would be polluted. They saw they WE would transfigure the holy word of God. They saw we’d be full of pride, lovers of wealth, depend on men rather than God (follow the prophet), embracing whoredoms (polygamy) and murders (blood atonement) and other vain and foolish doctrines, lacking both miracles and piercing of the veil, and that WE would love of our fine temples more than we would love the poor among us.
Compare Alma 4 and Alma 5 with Nephi’s warnings in 2 Nephi 28 and Moroni’s in Mormon chapter 8 and 9.
I pray to see the day when we as a church allow the Spirit to convict us into realizing that we have yet to collectively emerge from the wilderness of obscurity. I fear, however, that perhaps we find ourselves on the verge of finding ourselves on the wrong side of prophecy and will lose our “talent” to a people who will make better use of it (see Ether 12: 35 and 3 Nephi 16: 10).
Here's a fun find. You can see the suzerainty treaty (formula for establishing covenant) in Alma 5. This is a rough outline:
Preamble - Alma 5:3
Historical prologue - Alma 5:3-13
Terms of the covenant - Alma 5:14-30
Formal witness - Alma 5:43-49
Blessings and curses - Alma 5:31-42
And Todd, I look forward to listening to your discussion with Pastor Jeff, if that's who it was. He's had a couple of good discussions with Greg Matsen. I cannot understand why he hasn't yielded to the waters of LDS baptism yet. He's sung with the Tab Choir. Been invited here there and everywhere. Moved to Utah. For how much longer can he resist our charms, haha?! He's a stronger person than I am. One note in the presence of that choir and that would be me converted on the spot - says the woman from the UK who's sadly never been to Utah! One day.
This was the most delicious discussion. Thank you for the awareness
The vast majority of the BOM hasn't been read in church in a very long time.
You given me much to ponder, as does Alma. Your approach in this discussion is productive and profound, so I am very grateful.
I so enjoy these discussions and the valuable work you're doing. I listen to other Come Follow Me material which is also wonderful. In there, I hear a lot of talk about how much the Lord loves me, which I know and fully accept. I've been loved from the cradle by an angel mother and grew up in the church. But my primary concern is how I can love the Lord. I desire to FEEL love for him and that evades me. I love the gospel, love the scriptures, love the Doctrine of Christ and want as little to do with 'worldliness' as possible. Two years ago i felt prompted to fast once a week for my family, which i do. I've had two experiences in my life where I would say I was born again - burning from head to toe after a descent feeling of knowing I am nothing. It was devastating. Despite all this, I still struggle day to day to feel love for my Saviour and I really desire to. I've never stood up and testified that I love the Lord, though I am utterly committed to his gospel and can testify of many other things. I hear people express in prayers how much they love the Lord and i have holy envy. Anyway, I appreciate these frank and meaty discussions where I can attempt to view myself as I really am and approach my own veils of unbelief with a view to rending them. Thank you, thank you!!!
Maybe this will help. Everything around us shows God’s love. And our love for Him is a gift also. Pray with all the energy of your heart for the gift of Charity. When it comes, when God manifests his love to you it creates a love bond that is very powerful. I find that powerful words and music renews that love in me for my Savior. And of course my love for the Savior isn’t complete. But I ponder often when I see him will I first embrace Him or weep at his feet. These kind of thoughts soften my heart every time. Bless you for your comment and desires. ❤
If you want to feel love for God and aren't feeling it, my suspicion is that even though you feel that you fully accept God's love for you, you are nevertheless underestimating its depth, breadth, and likely its cost. The way the charity process goes is "we love [God] because he first loved us." (1John 4:19). If we are not feeling a love for God it is generally because we are missing or underestimating the depth of his love for us. We might believe in and fully accept that he feels love for us, but not be understanding the depth of his love and specifically the cost in terms of sacrifice that he paid to express that love for us. You might start by looking at your concept of what God has done for you and how costly it really was for him. Think of yourself at your lowest possible moments in life, and imagine the lowest moments, the evil, the uncleanness, the feeling of being cut off from the Lord and his love, all of the things that are the worst in your life, and imagine someone who had never experienced those things and did not need to do so choosing to experience them not merely for you, but for every human, to the fullest uttermost extent. This includes not just the justice that is denied to those who are trying to live justly when bad things happen to them through no fault of their own, but the justice that (correctly) falls upon those who have committed the most horrible, horrifying evil themselves, to an infinite depth-- to a depth no human has ever actually sunk before. It is when you understand that 1) you are actually and deservedly in the grasp of justice, 2) that mercy is extended to you, and 3) that mercy comes at an infinite and eternal cost that is not hypothetical, that you can come to appreciate God's love for you fully and begin to respond in love. Until we do all those things, we are all (all of us included) a little bit like an entitled teenager who understands and believes she is loved by her parents without any question-- but doesn't really appreciate what it costs her parents to give her all that they give, and to express that love, and thus doesn't fully value what they have done. If we can ponder on what it really cost to redeem us, and obtain a correct idea of God's character, perfection, and attributes in this way, the love for him will flood in. Properly understood, it is not a business deal or a quid pro quo. God is not bribing us with a massive eternal reward or threatening us with hellfire-- neither is a reason to obey. It is a complete expression of grace and love, at MASSIVE cost-- so much above what we ourselves have any comprehension of-- in the hope that we will reciprocate.
Thank you. Words and music combined are indeed powerful. I'm a professional musician. I've written songs about the Saviour and felt the spirit powerfully, but still feel I lack that love in my heart for him. I don't understand why. The first great commandment bothers me more than the second one! It's very strange. I trust that one day I'll be given the gift of divine love so that I can reciprocate His love for me! I'm sure if I met the Saviour tomorrow I would realise that I do love him. But can I feel so now? I'm not sure, but I will strive to pray with more energy of soul. ❤
If you aren't already (which you very well might be), I suggest taking the prophet's counsel and attending the temple as often and consistently-with exactness- as your circumstances allow while remembering not to run faster than you have strength. This has helped me to increase my love for my Savior which I haven't been able to say sincerely and with some depth until recently.
I really appreciate that comprehensive response. Thank you very much. I need to ponder your words carefully. The average UK ward doesn't have a Josh, a Todd, a Mark or a Cam. Sadly.
You guys! I can't thank you enough for the impact your insights have on my seeking to understand the gospel of Jesus Christ. I can feel the spirit of truth in what you've shared today. It's beautiful. Thank you, again.
Asking questions might make the truth more acceptable as the mind begins to see but bearing down in pure testimony comes after. Truth tellers get beat up often by those who can't bear it.The guilty taketh the truth to be hard.
30:00 - Alma 32
14 And now, as I said unto you, that because ye were compelled to be humble ye were blessed, do ye not suppose that they are more blessed who truly humble themselves because of the word?
...and they did fast and pray oft and wax stronger in their humility and firmer and firmer in the faith of Christ...Helaman 3
50:25 one may submit themselves and their pride willingly on the altar.
51:45 in different words, the reason why we have pride, is because we deny grace, and think that to some degree works will save us. The only works that we can do, are the works of repentance, a broken heart and contrite spirit. It's all grace. The law doesn't save. The arm of flesh has no power to save.
16:40 Your salvation is individual. But there is a repeated theme and pattern in scripture about the group, the family. I'd say it is mostly ignored and not well understood. What place does the collective have? The family, Abraham's family, the house of Israel, remnants, the nations, saviors on Mt Zion, kings & queens, generational blessings & cursings, redemption of posterity, of Israel, the bride, etc etc.
" I know that I am nothing" Ammon Man is nothing......Moses Remember your own nothingness ...king ben
The CRown of pride, the drunkards of Ephraim? Certainly that doesn't apply to me or my neighbors. We are humble