the donjon's having heated shot and the Sergeants being able to build them without risking villagers is probably why they'r so good on naval maps. A small group of sergeants sneakily landing on the corner of an island can turn into a pretty dangerous threat if they can build a few Donjon's without being noticed.
Also, on water maps there's a chance you can gain dominance over the sea early on, but not be strong enough to kill your opponent. When that happens you don't need much defense, but you *do* need to be able to boom economically while raiding the enemy to turn that sea dominance into a winning game. +100 free stone goes a long way towards an extra town centre in your Castle Age boom if you didn't need the stone for raid defense like you do on a land map.
A point to note on Viking's winrate (in addition to no fireship) is that because they're the most popular water civ, they're also the first choice of a player who doesn't often play water maps. And people who don't often play water maps are more likely to lose. Being popular directly lowers your winrate. Of course, you're also (usually) only popular if your winrate is high.
Same idea with the Sicilians -- unpopular choice, so they're more often chosen by Sicilian mains. Who win in part because they're good with the civ. That, or people have picked up gimmick strategies (i.e. donjon rush) that win more often than not against an unprepared opponent.
The balance in this game is nuts. To have so many civilizations so close to 50% win-rate is nothing short of amazing. The devs have really done a fantastic job. Sure not every civ is so well balanced right out of the box and there have been ones which over or underperformed for long time, but on a whole, it is impressive how many civs stay within about 10% of a perfect 50/50 win-loss rate.
Plus taking into account all the different kinds of maps! I've never seen a game where it's possible to have terrain that is simultaneously land/water AND have it balanced.
Most units and buildings are similar. It's easier to balance such a game. Imagine balancing a game like Dawn of War. 9 different factions. They even use different resources.
Yes, but this is not true for water maps, because civs who have advantages for this are preferably played there. Or why should I play Bulgarians on water, for example? Good balancing would mean that all civs have the same chances on water. But they don't have that. In my opinion, your opinion only applies to land maps.
All the civilizations are mostly the same with small bonuses and differences, a lot of other RTS's have drastically different faction mechanics which is way harder to balance.
@@lloydreed4721 Generally hybrid maps are fairly well balanced since having water control on such maps isnt that big of a deal and its only really important in the early game. Pure water maps where water control decides who wins or loses definitely arent balanced and there are really only ~5 civs you see on these maps (vikings, portugese and italians mainly)
There's another point explaining the different performance for swamp map civs. Since there's so much overlap between land and water units, the fire galley loses a lot of it's importante, so civs with good fire ships don't matter as much, and civs without them or with bad ones don't end up as bad.
Honestly I don't mind since while I don't mind the fire ship existing, I hate anything that makes them cheaper or more powerful so I just hate the Byantines by default when they can put that bonus to use.
Being able to set up a small base with a hybrid defensive/production building (benefitting from heated shot no less!) without needing to risk your villagers at first sounds like a strong potential bonus for sure, as does being able to set up villager defenses faster. Add in that your transports are better equipped to find safe landing spots, and they're potentially the strongest civilisation at taking islands through landings... Whether this holds up at high ELO's is a potential question, mind.
Was thinking the same thing, the win rate doesn't mean they are actually winning on water. The tech tree might push people into an early land strategy more often(or people running that strategy may be picking Sicilians specifically) and that might just be a winning strategy on water at alot of elo's.
Sicilians' success on full water maps is likely due to map control with Donjons. The ability to build them with easily-transportable Serjeants can snowball throughout the game, and with well-placed Donjons at strategic chokepoints, can swing a game in their favor.
Two aspects of hybrid maps worth mentioning. First Lithuanians and Persians starting with extra resources allows them to get their fish boom started earlier and more smoothly. Second cav civs are good because you will have more food in Feudal for making scouts
Honorable mention goes to the Portuguese on full water maps with their feitoria which can give them some resources if your game ever drags out long enough for you to run out of wood
The Britons should have a bonus called "Master of Portugal" since historically, the Portuguese were their bitches, and kind of still are. Get triggered, Lose-itanians out there, and their Brazillian underlings.
@@Gigas0101 All right. (Takes gloves off; clears throat) Hearken! ...Forsooth thine personable personage personally whimsical in mental direction to mine own quintessence doth issue forth a technically complete yet ambiguous retort of succinct sting albeit of noticeably scant investment in pertinence towards creative prowess insofar as such could be obtained in the face of obtrusive hiccups of figurative nature along the also-metaphorical way. Value quantitation (AVTO SIC) of qualitative calibre henceforth proceedeth from mine veritable intention aura manifesting in flesh expressions both ordinary as well as also in company with the sublime viz-a-viz thine aforementioned vocable projection sequence in visual form preserved by myriad routes electric coinciding in purpose by the ultimate design unwitnessed in need yet irrefutable indeed. The sentence of judgment as regards the topical query subject in association with thine patent volition is the following oration of utmost puncture capacity: ... In want of remarkable virtue, I must needs deign to deliver in response to thee a greater measure of thinly-veiled supercilious complimentation as a feature glaring of my passive-aggressive character mirroring thine own of likewise inclinations both perceived and empirical. Thereuntofore, it behooveth mineselficness to implore thee to reconsider, and mine regentic person doth abstain from witholding utterance in relation to the protocols alluded to. Henceforth it is of clarity established by the interlocuting authority at present, that the higher degree of worth accreditation is granted by the party authoring the currently read, in light of the factuality that thine selficness of netherworth lies.
Played a migration game today and went dravidians after watching this video and my opponent asked "did you watch solt?" We chatted for quite a bit after the game, just thought I'd say you really bring and mean a lot to the aoe community
Oh yeah I'd totally do the same, he mentioned if you like byzantine defensive style you might like Koreans even more. But I like the greek/Roman theme more and I'd choose them over Koreans every time.
Mentioning Sicilians you have to mention the Donjons. Castles in water are very strong. Having a mobile infantry that can defend itself on raids or defensively, while building sorta castles around wherever is really strong. You can go build Donjons where you expect a ship raid, and if they drop off units, you've got some infantry ready to go as well.
Viking longships on swamp maps are insane. They can raid villager eco, they’re the fastest unit in the game, can hit and run siege onagers. It’s no surprise that they’re #1
I've given it some thought and I think I made the connection on why the Sicilians are good on water maps so just here me out. Sicily is part of Italy, Italy looks like a boot, Boots are designed to keep out water, Water is where ships swim, Ships are used to get to islands, Sicily is an island. Therefore Sicily is good at islands
I feel like majority of people playing Malay on swamp maps just didn't have it click for them that they should spam harbor as combination of tower and barracks.
@@TheArklyte The primary arrow has 3 base damage (+10 vs ships) and the 3 secondary projectiles will deal 1 damage each. Unless the enemy forgets to upgrade armor (while you're going archers), the harbors are going to tickle any unit. 2) -_- only British and Japanese towers
In Rise of Nations,when I played on such a map, the lake was pointless because any unit would automatically transprot across. I much prefer how Age of Empires does borders, than the perpetually shifting crayon lines of Rise of Nations. But I do miss nuking people.
For Sicilians, I think their team bonus, plus their classic land strategies, and notably the tower rush one, gives players the incentive to go and sneak a transport ship into the opponent's island. It's not so much that they get good bonus for that, it's more that the civ is kind of reminding players to do that, I think. Indeed, most of the Sicilians I've faced were colonizing my island around castle age or earlier.
glad to see the dravidians make it in a list..its an underrated civ, and my personal fav would like to see a civilizational overview from SOTL on the civ
You FINALLY made a video on this topic... Nice! Honestly, I was really rooting for the Portuguese to be somewhere on top, but I can see why that's not the case. Sad, but the data speaks for itself.
I remember when I was younger. I'd only ever play Koreans on Islands or Team islands. I don't play them anymore in the modern remakes, but I still do love the turtle ships... Curse them nerfing Korean towers.
I'm surprised the Spanish have such a low win rate, considering they're my favourite water civ because of their boosted elite cannon galleons. The bonus that allows cannon galleons to benefit from Ballistics is absolutely deadly. It makes the cannonballs travel to target almost instantaneously and hit with 100% accuracy. A fleet of Spanish elite cannon galleons guarantees no enemy is building anything within shot range of any body of water!
I'm Spanish, and I clicked on this video to see the Spanish ranking, and am sad that this game nerfed my people so much. It must be the Black Legend. :-) See my video "ATHEIST PROPAGANDA in Age of Empires" where I prove that Huns were not atheists. See my many giant realistic maps for The Conquerors and HD, in my early uploads after the video "Slavery isn't wrong." The other day, in my Europe map, I was Spain allied to France, Germany and Russia, and we fought the Byzantine Empire which had the British as their allies, plus the Scandinavians and Moors. Those Greeks must hve soiled themselves when they saw the sons of Charlemagne crossing the Danube to reach the capital, while the Russians were coming down from Georgia burning everything in their path in Asia minor, while the Spanish were taking Crete while in the north, Constantinople was bombared to rubble while I seized the city after entering by the harbour.
In a game of a somewhat decent level with even players, there is no way to accomplish such a fleet of cannon galleons. Also they lack the head to head strengh to be impactful in low numbers upon reaching imperial age. Considering the price and creation time, you will lose water control as soon as you stop producing galleon/ fire ships to make them, because it takes so long to get enough of them. Its is like going for Elite War Elephant + Heavy Scorpion on land - only possible in ultra slow/ low level games or in FFAs
The Spanish are always my go-to for "Should be overpowered but somehow aren't." They're good at basically everything but lack the laser focused power of a lot of civs and so they're only a little above average. On the water this is especially noticeable because, while they have a fully upgraded navy, that only comes in late game, when the naval powerhouses have already brought a decisive edge to bear; they're not bad, just outshone.
I love Sicilians, and Hate a lot how devs nerfed they a lot. It's great to see a game area where Sicilians are fine :D So, thanks to Donjons (ofensive) and First Crusade (Defensive), we have the perfect invisible bonus on water maps: Teleport!
Let all ships work as transports. Vikings shouldn't need a separate ship for transporting their rapists. The Chinese should have ginormous junks. Italians should have the caravel if not already, since they invented it. It's not a coincidence that Portugal acquired that ship after hirign Italian experts. Portugal is overrated.
Perhaps Sicilians are good on pure water maps because players who pick them, pick them because they plan to land with them, and players with a plan are always more likely to win.
I always thought that Spanish (with their fast firing cannon galleys) or Portuguese (with feitorias and caravels) might be on the top 5 but they barely get to the top 10. To my surprise Sicilians ended up being a better pick, good to know for next time I decide to play on water.
@SpiritOfTheLaw Vikings have only a 54% winrate, because they are indeed by FAR most picked civ => they play often mirror matches, which anchors the winrate towards 50% [since one of them always lose, the other wins]. If you remove mirrors, it will be almost 57%
The Malay really shine on team or ffa water maps. Those settings just aren’t that popular, but the Malay are at their best during wars of attrition. Harbor spam protects against raids and allows you to build a massive navy quickly. And because harbors are so cheap and only cost wood, it’s virtually impossible to take them down in a cost effective way.
I thought Saracens would come up somewhere because those galleons are strong but they are extra late game strong it seems. Like Turks and their cannon galleons.
They were stronger before the introduction of fire galleys and demo rafts, so the only Feudal war ship was the galley. For Saracens, having 5 was like having 6. Really helps with a unit that relies so much of snowballing from small number or k/d advantages.
i think migration is very different from the other pure water maps. on most water maps it heavily depends on how fast you can get your first ships out to win the feudal water battle and take out opponent fishing eco. on migration however, the sea route is so long that your opponent will have outnumbered you until you would arrive as attacker. unless (s)he has gambled that you wouldnt attack anyway and didnt build navy
Gurjaras are OP on Water Nomad because of the bonus of getting continuous food from herdables. There is a seemingly infinite supply of water buffalo on Water Nomad.
I think the reason why Italians feel like #1 pure water civ but are actually lower is because in tournaments the other better civs would be used in maps with more land. Italians on land would always be the last pick while for example Byzantines and Sicilians are much more capable on land so not many players want to waste them for a water map.
With team games we have awsome successes with Huns + Vikings. Why? The no houses needed bonus is hinderance for fishing, but you can easily put up much more docks and warships. Did not try celts instead but might also be good similarily. Also people will be completely surprised by this combo haha.
The reason Sicilians do so good is because they do not have to use transports as much: - Castles and TC build faster. And "local" production of villages and troops is important on water, as you can't just send people over. - Farms last longer. This in turn is a wood bonus. And ships need wood. - Donjons. They are more durable watchtowers, that can only be destroyed by cannon Galleons or a landing force. As heated shot and armor make any Galleon line attack quesitonable - Serjants being able to build Donjons and spawn from Donjons. That means your army is also your builders. No villager to move over. Once you got a foothold, you can spam units on their landmass
I'm a bit baffled as why they made the dravidian unique boat so effing big. It's like a weird boat death star juggernaut, and even the sprite's details make it look like it's supposed to be kind of a small vessel.
One aspect of it would be that Koreans don't get demos. I think everyone would remember Vikings not getting fireships but forget about Korean demos, so people don't play around that shortcoming until it's too late. Also turtles are expensive, slow moving and slow to produce. Pretty difficult to mass them in time to control water.
I will prefer a list above a certain ELO. The lower level players don't use the civ to its potential and hence this list might not be considering the full merit of a civ (Like Sicilians at Number 2). But nevertheless, its always great to watch your videos
I actually think dravidians are kind of borken on Nomad, you save 25 wood for you first two house, you get more efficient fishing ships, you can also do a very early archer rush because of the 200 wood per age. Only thing is they lack mobility...
I like Bog Islands, Golden Swamp, Four Islands, and Mediterranean as opposed to Islands. These maps have water but you can still do a knight rush. I also find that people trend to underestimate me when I play as Vikings, Saracens, or Portuguese on these maps since while navies aren't needed per say, they can be useful while on Islands even if someone picked a civ without a water bonus and faced down my super Galleons, they at least know to shore up on their weaknesses.
Malay used to be OP on swamp maps because harbors, but harbors have had their damage against units significantly nerfed. It tickles anything that isn't an unarmored spearman.
They are easily counter with naval based civs. Canon galleon is seige expert not anti ship. Longboat, fast fire ship thrisadai, turtle ship demo ship to counter. So Spanish is not top tier
@@widodoakrom3938 nah he is right. Spanish canon galeon might make for some hillarious lel moments but neither has the civ the means to survive this long nor is the unit actually usefull vs someone who does micro.
As someone who plays sicilians routinely on water maps, the big reason they're good for me is their super easy and cheesy rush that, for some reason, no one expects. You get a cheap transport ship, extra stone, and donjons are super annoying. Just go to feudal and start dropping donjons on your opponents island. You dont even have to worry about bringing a vil over if you dont want to because serjeants build donjons. Keep spamming donjons and serjeants into castle age, and water control never really needs to be a huge concern. You just turn water maps into land maps. Its even good in team games to make someone early resign. I'm like 950 ELO, and this works pretty well at my level, I doubt at higher levels though this would work with as much consistency. I feel like at lower levels, people play water maps like arena and dont build land military early, so they get stomped by the one guy who builds land military early.
i let some bots fight each other and while they are really reluctant to use their boosted stuff some things were standing out: Goths are op. I beat a team of 6 AI on hardest difficulty on post-imperial Arena with a Huns ally so i don't need houses. Malay are top tier on land despite having no good land bonus. Elite Karambit spam is surprisingly strong. Elite Chu Ko Nu are incredibly strong. Inca with access to gold are tough to beat (but they are bad in offense). Vikings and Japanese are surprisingly bad. Hindustani might seem great for free vils but that actually doesn't matter. They're still top tier thanks to Elite Ghulam and super camels though. Slaws and Bulgarians AI are pure disappointment.
What if they added in Water walls and gates in regular play like they have in the campaigns ? I think the way they should be built is with a transport ship garrisoned with Villagers. I know in the original vision for AOE2 they had a builder ship to build them but I think a builder ship would make the mechanic underused.
In old builds of AoE2 (like on CD and maybe HD?) fishing ships were able to construct buildings besides fish traps. I think if water walls had been added to random map games, it would be via fishing ships.
Malay is my go to, especially at my elo (750-800) the food only 2 handed swords with the low fish-trap cost really amp up the civ. People often forhet the Karambit is really cheap, spawns fast, has only half population cost and is devastating when massed!
I'm surprised Koreans aren't featured in any of these lists. With warship wood cost discount, powerful turtle ship, and towers covering shoreline, you would think they are a decent water civ.
They don't get demoships, which means they can't counter a mass of Fires or any type of ship at all, Turtle Ships take ages to create, so the opponent will have army size advantage over you. Turtles are strong solo against not a lot of enemy ships. They do get upgraded towers, but, that can only help you so much, when the other player has all the water boom going without spending the stone on Towers and instead on TCs and castles. They aren't bad overall, just require a plan and strategy, so they are probably way better in tournament play than ladder.
without demos they're imo at least flop10, maybe flop5 on islands and team islands. they have slow dark age, so theyre doomed to lose feudal water battle to most other civs. and without demos they almost have no chance to come back. maybe coastal towers can somehow save them. havent tried yet. on migration they could be good, as the big distance saves you from early feudal attacks.
One of my most favourite water map wasn't mentioned. Is it not a ranked one? Continental is awesome. Land is most important here, but water holds a lot of resources, that aren't safe like with lakes, but can be contestet. I also like when maps have rivers as natural boundaries.
I think sisicilains being so good in watermaps is probably bit of low elo bias. I think there is type of player who really likes landing on water maps. They probably favorite watermaps and win lot of their games on water. Landing on water maps is good strategy even on high elo, but on low elo it can be super devestating. Sisicilians have pretty good bonsues for early landing (mainly serganets and transport bonsues) and they are only used for early landing (unlike vikings)
Dravidian low pick rate might be bc not everyone brought the DLC. imho a reasonable idea for lower ELO players. on hybrid you have really small water so Vikings are bad bc its 99% fire galleys. Huns are super good bc a) you are never housed what sometimes happens with more dark age production and also 6 Fish sustain your TC and the rest allowes for heavy CA play. 4 Range not uncommon. Lithuanians get a 1 minute dock so they get fish earlier. a really nice boost.
It was a pity that didn't classify the nomad as a hybrid map in this video, in my viewpoint, nomad is also a map which needs you to develop a massive amount of navy to defend your fishing ship and harass foe's fishing ship to keep them away from booming too fast or gather foods from both water and land.
I always thought they should change the Brits to an archer and naval civ. It would make more sense from a historic point of view. Maybe a tech that makes Gallons stronger or gives resistance to fire ships. Never fully got the treb tech.
I am surprised Byzantines did so good. I have long been an advocate for a Byzantine Buff but water is one of the things they are better at. Byzantines are so incompatible with the way AOE2 has evolved that I honestly think they need a Hindustani style Overhaul. The problem with the Byzantines on water is that all their bonuses apply to fire ships which generally speaking stop being relevant late game. I think a good way to buff them without going overboard would be to make Greek Fire apply to all Ships. Another idea is to give them faster firing Galleons or Cannon Galleons to help them late game (Notice how I said Galleons not Gallies meaning this only applies to the final upgrade as to give them a late game water bonus). The problem with the Byzantines on water is the problem they have in everything. They take so long to get going and by the time they do they aren't even all that good compared to other slow start civs like the Turks. What do you think about this suggestion ?
I just thought about it and adding the fire ship fire rate to Galleons or Cannon Galleons would be a bit much. I think a smaller bonus like 20 or 15 percent faster firing rate for Galleons or Cannon Galleons would be more suitable.
I don't know who is telling you fires are bad late game, when you just have to dominate with the stronger faster fires you have and control their docks never going back up. Fires have the advantage against Galleons if they aren't massed, if you can control their army size you win.
I think Sicilians winrate is because their bonuses incentivises a landing and it might be a winning strategy, especially considering that Sicilians are good at landing
Sicilians old TB used to give you a free instant transport ship and people abused it like crazy by landing in dark age to lame. Maybe this is a big contributor to why Sicilians are #2?
Vikings having a very high pick rate could contribute to a lower win rate. Many players might pick vikings simply because its the notorious water civ, and then play suboptimally dragging the stats down.
sad to not see korean's on this list with their decent towers, and turtle ships especially on maps with limited waterways like team islands the ability to hold a straight cant be understated
I don't find the Sicillians being high win rate surprising at all, Serjeants are probably the single best landing unit for feudal and castle shenanigans, especially since that'll involve Donjins with upgrades shooting at either boats with heated shot, or villagers/land military with no armor. As for the Dravidian low pick rate? I think it genuinely just has to do with them being a DLC civ, and the absence of people owning said DLC.
the donjon's having heated shot and the Sergeants being able to build them without risking villagers is probably why they'r so good on naval maps. A small group of sergeants sneakily landing on the corner of an island can turn into a pretty dangerous threat if they can build a few Donjon's without being noticed.
I fear them in Empire Wars Northern Islands: instant dungeon landing is tough.
There is a joke here: "The best move to win the water war is not to play water war"
Also, on water maps there's a chance you can gain dominance over the sea early on, but not be strong enough to kill your opponent.
When that happens you don't need much defense, but you *do* need to be able to boom economically while raiding the enemy to turn that sea dominance into a winning game.
+100 free stone goes a long way towards an extra town centre in your Castle Age boom if you didn't need the stone for raid defense like you do on a land map.
Had the same idea as you
iirc they're (Serjeants) also hella tanky in terms of armor too, right?
A point to note on Viking's winrate (in addition to no fireship) is that because they're the most popular water civ, they're also the first choice of a player who doesn't often play water maps. And people who don't often play water maps are more likely to lose.
Being popular directly lowers your winrate.
Of course, you're also (usually) only popular if your winrate is high.
Same idea with the Sicilians -- unpopular choice, so they're more often chosen by Sicilian mains. Who win in part because they're good with the civ.
That, or people have picked up gimmick strategies (i.e. donjon rush) that win more often than not against an unprepared opponent.
Pretty good confounding variable identification
Franks will be Franks
- a song by the band "King", notorious for their bizarre attitude
The balance in this game is nuts. To have so many civilizations so close to 50% win-rate is nothing short of amazing. The devs have really done a fantastic job. Sure not every civ is so well balanced right out of the box and there have been ones which over or underperformed for long time, but on a whole, it is impressive how many civs stay within about 10% of a perfect 50/50 win-loss rate.
Plus taking into account all the different kinds of maps! I've never seen a game where it's possible to have terrain that is simultaneously land/water AND have it balanced.
Most units and buildings are similar. It's easier to balance such a game. Imagine balancing a game like Dawn of War. 9 different factions. They even use different resources.
Yes, but this is not true for water maps, because civs who have advantages for this are preferably played there. Or why should I play Bulgarians on water, for example? Good balancing would mean that all civs have the same chances on water. But they don't have that. In my opinion, your opinion only applies to land maps.
All the civilizations are mostly the same with small bonuses and differences, a lot of other RTS's have drastically different faction mechanics which is way harder to balance.
@@lloydreed4721 Generally hybrid maps are fairly well balanced since having water control on such maps isnt that big of a deal and its only really important in the early game. Pure water maps where water control decides who wins or loses definitely arent balanced and there are really only ~5 civs you see on these maps (vikings, portugese and italians mainly)
There's another point explaining the different performance for swamp map civs. Since there's so much overlap between land and water units, the fire galley loses a lot of it's importante, so civs with good fire ships don't matter as much, and civs without them or with bad ones don't end up as bad.
Honestly I don't mind since while I don't mind the fire ship existing, I hate anything that makes them cheaper or more powerful so I just hate the Byantines by default when they can put that bonus to use.
Theory (because I've played it like that a couple of times): sicilians are good in full water maps due to early landing and donjon rush
Being able to set up a small base with a hybrid defensive/production building (benefitting from heated shot no less!) without needing to risk your villagers at first sounds like a strong potential bonus for sure, as does being able to set up villager defenses faster. Add in that your transports are better equipped to find safe landing spots, and they're potentially the strongest civilisation at taking islands through landings...
Whether this holds up at high ELO's is a potential question, mind.
@@rubywest5166 add lets that they also start with extra stone
Lol Got confused. Thought you said Dolphin rush.
Dyslexia lol
Was thinking the same thing, the win rate doesn't mean they are actually winning on water. The tech tree might push people into an early land strategy more often(or people running that strategy may be picking Sicilians specifically) and that might just be a winning strategy on water at alot of elo's.
@@matthewpopow6647 new cheat unit?
Sicilians' success on full water maps is likely due to map control with Donjons. The ability to build them with easily-transportable Serjeants can snowball throughout the game, and with well-placed Donjons at strategic chokepoints, can swing a game in their favor.
Two aspects of hybrid maps worth mentioning. First Lithuanians and Persians starting with extra resources allows them to get their fish boom started earlier and more smoothly. Second cav civs are good because you will have more food in Feudal for making scouts
Honorable mention goes to the Portuguese on full water maps with their feitoria which can give them some resources if your game ever drags out long enough for you to run out of wood
The Britons should have a bonus called "Master of Portugal" since historically, the Portuguese were their bitches, and kind of still are. Get triggered, Lose-itanians out there, and their Brazillian underlings.
@@scintillam_dei I appreciate the audacity of your crapulence.
@@Gigas0101 I appreciate your crappy way to insult my words of insultingness.
@@scintillam_dei I appreciate your appreciation of my crappy insult of your insulting words of insultingness, it deserves appreciation.
@@Gigas0101 All right. (Takes gloves off; clears throat)
Hearken! ...Forsooth thine personable personage personally whimsical in mental direction to mine own quintessence doth issue forth a technically complete yet ambiguous retort of succinct sting albeit of noticeably scant investment in pertinence towards creative prowess insofar as such could be obtained in the face of obtrusive hiccups of figurative nature along the also-metaphorical way. Value quantitation (AVTO SIC) of qualitative calibre henceforth proceedeth from mine veritable intention aura manifesting in flesh expressions both ordinary as well as also in company with the sublime viz-a-viz thine aforementioned vocable projection sequence in visual form preserved by myriad routes electric coinciding in purpose by the ultimate design unwitnessed in need yet irrefutable indeed.
The sentence of judgment as regards the topical query subject in association with thine patent volition is the following oration of utmost puncture capacity:
...
In want of remarkable virtue, I must needs deign to deliver in response to thee a greater measure of thinly-veiled supercilious complimentation as a feature glaring of my passive-aggressive character mirroring thine own of likewise inclinations both perceived and empirical.
Thereuntofore, it behooveth mineselficness to implore thee to reconsider, and mine regentic person doth abstain from witholding utterance in relation to the protocols alluded to.
Henceforth it is of clarity established by the interlocuting authority at present, that the higher degree of worth accreditation is granted by the party authoring the currently read, in light of the factuality that thine selficness of netherworth lies.
Played a migration game today and went dravidians after watching this video and my opponent asked "did you watch solt?"
We chatted for quite a bit after the game, just thought I'd say you really bring and mean a lot to the aoe community
1:52 Damn, the "take this with an ocean of salt" is genius. I'm gonna steal this line.
Good old SOTL: "yeah ok the numbers are this and that but I'll be sticking with the Japanese thank you bye" :D
Oh yeah I'd totally do the same, he mentioned if you like byzantine defensive style you might like Koreans even more. But I like the greek/Roman theme more and I'd choose them over Koreans every time.
Mentioning Sicilians you have to mention the Donjons. Castles in water are very strong. Having a mobile infantry that can defend itself on raids or defensively, while building sorta castles around wherever is really strong. You can go build Donjons where you expect a ship raid, and if they drop off units, you've got some infantry ready to go as well.
Viking longships on swamp maps are insane. They can raid villager eco, they’re the fastest unit in the game, can hit and run siege onagers. It’s no surprise that they’re #1
ackchually fully occupied Mongol Siege Towers with Drill move faster
The legend back at it again. Quality video, thank you for all you do!
I've given it some thought and I think I made the connection on why the Sicilians are good on water maps so just here me out.
Sicily is part of Italy,
Italy looks like a boot,
Boots are designed to keep out water,
Water is where ships swim,
Ships are used to get to islands,
Sicily is an island.
Therefore Sicily is good at islands
Nice :p Thank you for your analysis!
I feel like majority of people playing Malay on swamp maps just didn't have it click for them that they should spam harbor as combination of tower and barracks.
Harbors do nothing against land units with upgrades, most of their damage comes from anti-ship bonus damage.
@@biggali
1)even against camel civs(one of which is current top by pick and win rate)?
2)normal towers have better arrows?0_o
@@TheArklyte The primary arrow has 3 base damage (+10 vs ships) and the 3 secondary projectiles will deal 1 damage each. Unless the enemy forgets to upgrade armor (while you're going archers), the harbors are going to tickle any unit.
2) -_- only British and Japanese towers
Thank you Sotl! At last, my dream about top 5 water civ list come true.
Not gonna lie, I'm impressed of how you present the video just like thesis
i agree. since ive started working as a scientist and writing papers i use sotl's so often. probably even more often than i think :D
It's not what I had in mind when you were talking about "lake map", I was thinking of maps with a big lake in middle and a "donut" of land all around.
In Rise of Nations,when I played on such a map, the lake was pointless because any unit would automatically transprot across. I much prefer how Age of Empires does borders, than the perpetually shifting crayon lines of Rise of Nations.
But I do miss nuking people.
For Sicilians, I think their team bonus, plus their classic land strategies, and notably the tower rush one, gives players the incentive to go and sneak a transport ship into the opponent's island. It's not so much that they get good bonus for that, it's more that the civ is kind of reminding players to do that, I think. Indeed, most of the Sicilians I've faced were colonizing my island around castle age or earlier.
glad to see the dravidians make it in a list..its an underrated civ, and my personal fav would like to see a civilizational overview from SOTL on the civ
Lower pick rates for Dravidians make sense considering they are a DLC faction. Or does the stats only consider those that CAN select it?
Then you would get the inverse result. Chances are players aren't buying the DLC unless they want to play one of the civs in it.
You FINALLY made a video on this topic... Nice!
Honestly, I was really rooting for the Portuguese to be somewhere on top, but I can see why that's not the case.
Sad, but the data speaks for itself.
It’s nice seeing the Sicilians showing up and I guess kinda weird I never noticed them only having one water bonus
I remember when I was younger. I'd only ever play Koreans on Islands or Team islands. I don't play them anymore in the modern remakes, but I still do love the turtle ships... Curse them nerfing Korean towers.
Gurjaras have an amazing bonus for hybrid maps that almost nobody knoes. Even sotl doesn't even mention it
The camels get big bonus vs ships 11
Lithuanians are so high on hybrid maps thanks to their extra starting food allowing them to dock much earlier and get ahead in fishing eco
I'm surprised the Spanish have such a low win rate, considering they're my favourite water civ because of their boosted elite cannon galleons. The bonus that allows cannon galleons to benefit from Ballistics is absolutely deadly. It makes the cannonballs travel to target almost instantaneously and hit with 100% accuracy. A fleet of Spanish elite cannon galleons guarantees no enemy is building anything within shot range of any body of water!
I also was surprised by this. Back in the day I always selected Spanish for water maps (I don´t play much AoE 2 these days).
I'm Spanish, and I clicked on this video to see the Spanish ranking, and am sad that this game nerfed my people so much. It must be the Black Legend. :-)
See my video "ATHEIST PROPAGANDA in Age of Empires" where I prove that Huns were not atheists. See my many giant realistic maps for The Conquerors and HD, in my early uploads after the video "Slavery isn't wrong."
The other day, in my Europe map, I was Spain allied to France, Germany and Russia, and we fought the Byzantine Empire which had the British as their allies, plus the Scandinavians and Moors. Those Greeks must hve soiled themselves when they saw the sons of Charlemagne crossing the Danube to reach the capital, while the Russians were coming down from Georgia burning everything in their path in Asia minor, while the Spanish were taking Crete while in the north, Constantinople was bombared to rubble while I seized the city after entering by the harbour.
Vs a decent opponent, the match is over before you ever get to canon galleon.
In a game of a somewhat decent level with even players, there is no way to accomplish such a fleet of cannon galleons. Also they lack the head to head strengh to be impactful in low numbers upon reaching imperial age. Considering the price and creation time, you will lose water control as soon as you stop producing galleon/ fire ships to make them, because it takes so long to get enough of them. Its is like going for Elite War Elephant + Heavy Scorpion on land - only possible in ultra slow/ low level games or in FFAs
The Spanish are always my go-to for "Should be overpowered but somehow aren't." They're good at basically everything but lack the laser focused power of a lot of civs and so they're only a little above average. On the water this is especially noticeable because, while they have a fully upgraded navy, that only comes in late game, when the naval powerhouses have already brought a decisive edge to bear; they're not bad, just outshone.
I very like best civs for the various type of maps. Please do more similar videos
I'm choosing to think there's a guy who only plays Cicilians on water and is an absolute beast, skewing the stats towards this civ.
The hoang of water map
The Dravidians not being picked that often may simply be because it's a recent expansion civ, not everyone bought it.
I love Sicilians, and Hate a lot how devs nerfed they a lot.
It's great to see a game area where Sicilians are fine :D
So, thanks to Donjons (ofensive) and First Crusade (Defensive), we have the perfect invisible bonus on water maps: Teleport!
Great video Sotl
I think we are long overdue a water combat rework to make it more fun than just spam the best unit for the situation you're in
Let all ships work as transports. Vikings shouldn't need a separate ship for transporting their rapists.
The Chinese should have ginormous junks.
Italians should have the caravel if not already, since they invented it. It's not a coincidence that Portugal acquired that ship after hirign Italian experts. Portugal is overrated.
Monks with redemption garrisoned in transport ships should be able to convert enemy ships.
11:39
if you read the first 4 here diagonally starting from the "D"
you get the word "DIVE"
which is quite fitting for this kinda list
Perhaps Sicilians are good on pure water maps because players who pick them, pick them because they plan to land with them, and players with a plan are always more likely to win.
Good morning cool 90s kids :)
:-)
I always thought that Spanish (with their fast firing cannon galleys) or Portuguese (with feitorias and caravels) might be on the top 5 but they barely get to the top 10.
To my surprise Sicilians ended up being a better pick, good to know for next time I decide to play on water.
I'm convinced that people who regularly play and enjoy water maps are Fish people and they probably live in Atlantis.
@SpiritOfTheLaw Vikings have only a 54% winrate, because they are indeed by FAR most picked civ => they play often mirror matches, which anchors the winrate towards 50% [since one of them always lose, the other wins]. If you remove mirrors, it will be almost 57%
I would like to see tournament results for civs. Warlords had water and hybrid maps featured. Also water civs are usually not banned.
11:35 - what you probably meant was: "I'm going to stick with Japanese, because they are the Japanese. And I love the Japanese."
The Malay really shine on team or ffa water maps. Those settings just aren’t that popular, but the Malay are at their best during wars of attrition. Harbor spam protects against raids and allows you to build a massive navy quickly. And because harbors are so cheap and only cost wood, it’s virtually impossible to take them down in a cost effective way.
So what you're saying is, this is the definitive list. Hands down.
I thought Saracens would come up somewhere because those galleons are strong but they are extra late game strong it seems. Like Turks and their cannon galleons.
They were stronger before the introduction of fire galleys and demo rafts, so the only Feudal war ship was the galley. For Saracens, having 5 was like having 6. Really helps with a unit that relies so much of snowballing from small number or k/d advantages.
i think migration is very different from the other pure water maps. on most water maps it heavily depends on how fast you can get your first ships out to win the feudal water battle and take out opponent fishing eco. on migration however, the sea route is so long that your opponent will have outnumbered you until you would arrive as attacker. unless (s)he has gambled that you wouldnt attack anyway and didnt build navy
You should make a comunity event and let everyone play just water maps to get some good data
Gurjaras are OP on Water Nomad because of the bonus of getting continuous food from herdables. There is a seemingly infinite supply of water buffalo on Water Nomad.
I think the reason why Italians feel like #1 pure water civ but are actually lower is because in tournaments the other better civs would be used in maps with more land. Italians on land would always be the last pick while for example Byzantines and Sicilians are much more capable on land so not many players want to waste them for a water map.
Im suprised the Koreans didnt show up, despite having the strongest water unit in the turtle ship
With team games we have awsome successes with Huns + Vikings. Why? The no houses needed bonus is hinderance for fishing, but you can easily put up much more docks and warships. Did not try celts instead but might also be good similarily. Also people will be completely surprised by this combo haha.
The reason Sicilians do so good is because they do not have to use transports as much:
- Castles and TC build faster. And "local" production of villages and troops is important on water, as you can't just send people over.
- Farms last longer. This in turn is a wood bonus. And ships need wood.
- Donjons. They are more durable watchtowers, that can only be destroyed by cannon Galleons or a landing force. As heated shot and armor make any Galleon line attack quesitonable
- Serjants being able to build Donjons and spawn from Donjons. That means your army is also your builders. No villager to move over. Once you got a foothold, you can spam units on their landmass
Just jumped back into AOE2 ranked (500 ELO legends holllaaaa) and this list came in the right time.
0:02 & 0:07
F for respects to those two brave ships
I'm a bit baffled as why they made the dravidian unique boat so effing big. It's like a weird boat death star juggernaut, and even the sprite's details make it look like it's supposed to be kind of a small vessel.
Thank you
8:33 - Am I the only one surprised not to see Koreans on the list?
One aspect of it would be that Koreans don't get demos. I think everyone would remember Vikings not getting fireships but forget about Korean demos, so people don't play around that shortcoming until it's too late.
Also turtles are expensive, slow moving and slow to produce. Pretty difficult to mass them in time to control water.
I will prefer a list above a certain ELO. The lower level players don't use the civ to its potential and hence this list might not be considering the full merit of a civ (Like Sicilians at Number 2). But nevertheless, its always great to watch your videos
4:14 Oh no! A bugged fishing ship! Someone tell Dave!
I enjoy the knowledge that SotL likes Japanese as I watch the results of things like this include them in high standing.
I'm surprised he didn't cover this topic sooner.
I actually think dravidians are kind of borken on Nomad, you save 25 wood for you first two house, you get more efficient fishing ships, you can also do a very early archer rush because of the 200 wood per age. Only thing is they lack mobility...
I like Bog Islands, Golden Swamp, Four Islands, and Mediterranean as opposed to Islands. These maps have water but you can still do a knight rush. I also find that people trend to underestimate me when I play as Vikings, Saracens, or Portuguese on these maps since while navies aren't needed per say, they can be useful while on Islands even if someone picked a civ without a water bonus and faced down my super Galleons, they at least know to shore up on their weaknesses.
Malay used to be OP on swamp maps because harbors, but harbors have had their damage against units significantly nerfed. It tickles anything that isn't an unarmored spearman.
Spanish are #1 for me simply because of their Super Cannon Galleons
They are easily counter with naval based civs.
Canon galleon is seige expert not anti ship.
Longboat, fast fire ship thrisadai, turtle ship demo ship to counter. So Spanish is not top tier
@@sashidharan1192 seems like u don't know how op Spanish canon galleon
@@widodoakrom3938 nah he is right. Spanish canon galeon might make for some hillarious lel moments but neither has the civ the means to survive this long nor is the unit actually usefull vs someone who does micro.
I'm kinda surprised the spanish weren't on the top 5, those late game cannon galleons and economy bonuses can be fearsome
Spanish cannon galleons are the most fun unit in the game, however, they come in so late that it doesn't matter in the competitive scene.
Portuguese: Am I a Joke To You?
As an italian i can say that Dravidians "beating" my civ(s) is a certified *indha ganame pogirin moment.*
😂😂 Wow!! You understand Tamil??
@@vigneshorthodoc ahah not exactly. But i have some story with Tamil language since my parents visited Sri Lanka/Ceylon after marrying.
Ok so this is definitely a definitive list, got it
I love how the comment section about Sicilian winning is mostly : "Yep, must be those friggin Donjons"
I can't help but agree with the notion too lol
As someone who plays sicilians routinely on water maps, the big reason they're good for me is their super easy and cheesy rush that, for some reason, no one expects. You get a cheap transport ship, extra stone, and donjons are super annoying. Just go to feudal and start dropping donjons on your opponents island. You dont even have to worry about bringing a vil over if you dont want to because serjeants build donjons. Keep spamming donjons and serjeants into castle age, and water control never really needs to be a huge concern. You just turn water maps into land maps. Its even good in team games to make someone early resign. I'm like 950 ELO, and this works pretty well at my level, I doubt at higher levels though this would work with as much consistency. I feel like at lower levels, people play water maps like arena and dont build land military early, so they get stomped by the one guy who builds land military early.
Could you please do a video on the 10× shared civ bonuses? I'm very interested on seeing your take on it
i let some bots fight each other and while they are really reluctant to use their boosted stuff some things were standing out:
Goths are op. I beat a team of 6 AI on hardest difficulty on post-imperial Arena with a Huns ally so i don't need houses.
Malay are top tier on land despite having no good land bonus. Elite Karambit spam is surprisingly strong.
Elite Chu Ko Nu are incredibly strong.
Inca with access to gold are tough to beat (but they are bad in offense).
Vikings and Japanese are surprisingly bad.
Hindustani might seem great for free vils but that actually doesn't matter. They're still top tier thanks to Elite Ghulam and super camels though.
Slaws and Bulgarians AI are pure disappointment.
What if they added in Water walls and gates in regular play like they have in the campaigns ? I think the way they should be built is with a transport ship garrisoned with Villagers. I know in the original vision for AOE2 they had a builder ship to build them but I think a builder ship would make the mechanic underused.
In old builds of AoE2 (like on CD and maybe HD?) fishing ships were able to construct buildings besides fish traps. I think if water walls had been added to random map games, it would be via fishing ships.
@@clefspeareiii1710 That could work to but I still like my idea of garrisoning villagers on transport ships.
peak humor, peak analytics. thats how we like it
Malay is my go to, especially at my elo (750-800) the food only 2 handed swords with the low fish-trap cost really amp up the civ. People often forhet the Karambit is really cheap, spawns fast, has only half population cost and is devastating when massed!
I'm surprised Koreans aren't featured in any of these lists. With warship wood cost discount, powerful turtle ship, and towers covering shoreline, you would think they are a decent water civ.
They don't get demoships, which means they can't counter a mass of Fires or any type of ship at all, Turtle Ships take ages to create, so the opponent will have army size advantage over you. Turtles are strong solo against not a lot of enemy ships. They do get upgraded towers, but, that can only help you so much, when the other player has all the water boom going without spending the stone on Towers and instead on TCs and castles.
They aren't bad overall, just require a plan and strategy, so they are probably way better in tournament play than ladder.
without demos they're imo at least flop10, maybe flop5 on islands and team islands. they have slow dark age, so theyre doomed to lose feudal water battle to most other civs. and without demos they almost have no chance to come back. maybe coastal towers can somehow save them. havent tried yet.
on migration they could be good, as the big distance saves you from early feudal attacks.
One of my most favourite water map wasn't mentioned. Is it not a ranked one?
Continental is awesome. Land is most important here, but water holds a lot of resources, that aren't safe like with lakes, but can be contestet.
I also like when maps have rivers as natural boundaries.
many recent tournaments have proved that Dravidians are VERY STRONG on pure water maps, definitely stronger than many traditionally strong water civs.
"in isolation has very little predictive power of how good a Sith will be on Four Lakes Japanese and"
Gotta love youtube closed captions.
I think sisicilains being so good in watermaps is probably bit of low elo bias.
I think there is type of player who really likes landing on water maps. They probably favorite watermaps and win lot of their games on water. Landing on water maps is good strategy even on high elo, but on low elo it can be super devestating. Sisicilians have pretty good bonsues for early landing (mainly serganets and transport bonsues) and they are only used for early landing (unlike vikings)
Dravidian low pick rate might be bc not everyone brought the DLC. imho a reasonable idea for lower ELO players.
on hybrid you have really small water so Vikings are bad bc its 99% fire galleys.
Huns are super good bc a) you are never housed what sometimes happens with more dark age production and also 6 Fish sustain your TC and the rest allowes for heavy CA play. 4 Range not uncommon.
Lithuanians get a 1 minute dock so they get fish earlier. a really nice boost.
It was a pity that didn't classify the nomad as a hybrid map in this video, in my viewpoint, nomad is also a map which needs you to develop a massive amount of navy to defend your fishing ship and harass foe's fishing ship to keep them away from booming too fast or gather foods from both water and land.
I bet the berbers are good, because people get surprised by a lot of knights when they try to set up their land and water ecos^^
I always thought they should change the Brits to an archer and naval civ. It would make more sense from a historic point of view. Maybe a tech that makes Gallons stronger or gives resistance to fire ships. Never fully got the treb tech.
I am surprised Byzantines did so good. I have long been an advocate for a Byzantine Buff but water is one of the things they are better at. Byzantines are so incompatible with the way AOE2 has evolved that I honestly think they need a Hindustani style Overhaul. The problem with the Byzantines on water is that all their bonuses apply to fire ships which generally speaking stop being relevant late game. I think a good way to buff them without going overboard would be to make Greek Fire apply to all Ships. Another idea is to give them faster firing Galleons or Cannon Galleons to help them late game (Notice how I said Galleons not Gallies meaning this only applies to the final upgrade as to give them a late game water bonus). The problem with the Byzantines on water is the problem they have in everything. They take so long to get going and by the time they do they aren't even all that good compared to other slow start civs like the Turks. What do you think about this suggestion ?
I just thought about it and adding the fire ship fire rate to Galleons or Cannon Galleons would be a bit much. I think a smaller bonus like 20 or 15 percent faster firing rate for Galleons or Cannon Galleons would be more suitable.
I don't know who is telling you fires are bad late game, when you just have to dominate with the stronger faster fires you have and control their docks never going back up.
Fires have the advantage against Galleons if they aren't massed, if you can control their army size you win.
awesome!
Lobe your vids ❤
I main Vikings and byzantines
And love using both of them on water and mixed maps
Me, not having bought the Indian DLC yet: "Hrm, maybe I should give these Dravidian fellows a try."
Man the dravidians' ship is such an imposing sight
I think Sicilians winrate is because their bonuses incentivises a landing and it might be a winning strategy, especially considering that Sicilians are good at landing
I wonder whether the Sicilians having a transport ship bonus is incentivizing early landings that catch players off guard.
Sicilians old TB used to give you a free instant transport ship and people abused it like crazy by landing in dark age to lame. Maybe this is a big contributor to why Sicilians are #2?
Playing against the Davidian ships are such a pain in the butt.
i kind of like using Malay ( to spam harbor as towers )
Vikings having a very high pick rate could contribute to a lower win rate. Many players might pick vikings simply because its the notorious water civ, and then play suboptimally dragging the stats down.
sad to not see korean's on this list with their decent towers, and turtle ships especially on maps with limited waterways like team islands the ability to hold a straight cant be understated
Oh yay first time one of my games is ever included in the stats
I don't find the Sicillians being high win rate surprising at all, Serjeants are probably the single best landing unit for feudal and castle shenanigans, especially since that'll involve Donjins with upgrades shooting at either boats with heated shot, or villagers/land military with no armor.
As for the Dravidian low pick rate? I think it genuinely just has to do with them being a DLC civ, and the absence of people owning said DLC.
muchas gracias SOTL