AO Spare actually did not coin the term Chaos magick, some people might consider him a proto-chaote. He still is at the root of all Chaos Magick but he did not coin the term. Chaos is in reference to a lot of his cosmological ideas. It's essentially a stand-in term for God, Tao, etc. (a term to encapsulate that force without resorting to anthropomorphization). Liber Null by Peter Carroll is super accessible but still goes into detail about all of this stuff. Is a must-read for anyone interested in Chaos Magick
I like the paradox of the order/chaos cycle, which can be used in sigil workings and auto writing sessions. Characters such as latin or runic scripts can form sigils that will lose conscious meaning, formlessness potential out of symbols that had powerful meaning or information before their degradation and reformation.
I may have dabbled in Chaos magic without knowing it by the sounds of it. I’m a Libra and yes my life is pure chaos. I have been learning to be calm in the chaos though. If I focus on certain things that I really want I tend to get or achieve them. I notice that if I become distracted from what I want it doesn’t necessarily happen either the way I want or at all.
Where I would disagree with you as a chaos magician is you can use deities and still be doing chaos magick. It’s about choosing to believe it at a certain time. It’s quite literally using ALL forms of magick available. What makes it chaos magick is the fact that you choose to believe in the practices you use, even religions, but you have to embrace them fully and allow yourself to believe in it for it to work. You can go from being a devout Christian for a week, and drop it then go to Satanism, then drop that and go to witchcraft. The power lies within the belief itself. It’s a mindset. So you can say “well that’s more norse paganism”, but what you’re missing is that it’s being used as a tool, you’re not following just that path, you go between different ones, you can CHOOSE to believe in the power of symbols. That’s exactly why it’s chaos magick. Youre right there, but just missing the point by a wee bit. This isnt me coming at you btw lol just clearing things up. You can choose to believe it’s all real all at once. That’s the beauty of it. You get choose what works for you personally. Also, in regards to sigils, aside from set it and forget it, you still need to take actions related to that sigil. Like if it’s about winning the lottery, you have to buy a lottery ticket. If it’s for a job, you still need to be actively looking. It’s more like asking the universe to help out the odds in your favor while actively pursuing what you want. If you set, forget, and do nothing, it’s lazy magick and nothing comes of it. You get nothing by doing nothing. If you want love, you need to go meet people. Basically it’s just trying to metaphysically stack the odds in your favor with things you’re already working towards in the physical world. As above so below, as within so without, as the universe so the soul. It still applies.
I made a sigil to stop drinking and i couldn’t believe it but i didn’t drink for 4 months. The magik works but I mine had a time limit. I need to create the sigil again but have been lagging.
Good video, but, need to correct something. Austin Osman Spare lived around the Victorian Era and created the foundation of Sigil Magick with his Alphabet of Desire. However, Chaos Magick was actually founded by Peter Carroll in the late '70's and used AO Spare's Sigil Magick as the basic starting point of Chaos Magick. So, traditionally, Carroll is the Father of Chaos Magick and AO Spare is the Grandfather. Also, Chaos Magick was the first Magick System to utilize The Multiverse as The Multiverse; so yes, it is Multidimensional.
Love this so much! I've always avoided calling myself a chaos witch, but I definitely do a lot of chaotic spell craft! I love to do spell craft that I feel like the ancestors might have done. Very "quick and dirty!" 🤣 Absolutely no ceremony, no calling quarters, just knowing my guides are with me and supporting me. I dont do much sigil work, but I've been dabbling with Runes and the Ogham. This video made me want to charge my business logo as a sigil to attract my ideal client! 💕
Chaos magicians can use different paradigms and things other than the psych model! Although they do use the paradigm and their beliefs in it as a tool deities are not completely excluded
I think tech is a way to harness magic in general. I was using spreadsheets for a class the other day and the way there are codes reminds me a lot of sigils and spells
Your thoughts and questions on UAP/UFO’s are concise and intriguing! In live discussion, I only managed to make a quip about 🛸 UFO’s and to reference the X-Files. Those are actually really good engaging questions to ponder!
Listening to this during a thunderstorm 🌩 I've always found Chaos Magick interesting but feel I do lean more toward Eclectic Magick - really enjoying your videos, would be great if you start doing more again, but understand that taking a break or doing less can also be necessary 💜
Egregor is the spirit, a type of collective embodiment of the group...It is the group spirit created and animated by occult meditations within the magic group.
Sorry missed this live . My view on this is . Chaos magic is what is all around you you need to find a balance and learn to walk through this and use what you have at hand to. I find it funny how science is slowly proving my point the universe works in a very chaos manner you need to learn to understand this and work with it to be on this level is very inlighting
@@terryhayleypatterson7847 who taught you how to spell. I was trying to be helpful, but you just go right ahead and embarrass yourself by your own stupidity. Have a lovely day!
Because am dislexic and its extremely offensive to correct somebody's spellings over small mistakes . Think about how you would feel if you cant help but miss spell things and habing some one say there being helpfull it isnt helpfull at all
The part about sigil magic was really interesting for me. I am still pretty new to the multifaceted world of pagans and sometimes feel overwhelmed by the myriad of paths and possibilities. Is anyone using sigils in the described way while not following a totally agnostic path? I always was more on the „divine energies and subconscious mind“ side of things rather than on the „let us make a huge ritual with a hundred steps and ingredients“ page… but I do feel drawn to goddesses of different pantheons and ideas of reincarnation and could not identify with agnosticism. I sometimes still feel I could need a „how to take yourself serious as a beginner without the comfort of THE authentic rulebook“ video 🙈
I only know one person who identifies as a chaos magician and as a neopagan eclectic witch I feel like they couldn't be any more different than myself 😅 insists were the same but idolizes Crowley and believes in a large variety of strange conspiracy theories and criptids. I appreciate this video because up until watching this I had a very negative experience with this type of practice 😬 still not for me as I'm very faith based but I definitely feel less uncomfortable about it lol
Slenderman is a perfect example of an aggregor or a tulpa. It started on Creepypasta as an internet meme meant to terrify people in the modern world. But it has leapt out of the internet and into this world. Kids are affected by Slenderman. There were some young girls (around 12 if I recall) a few years back that had collected knives, rope and tape and went to the park to kill someone at night. They said Slenderman told them to do it. And yes I believe we are all connected, which explains why we all experience the same things like the Shadow Man or Hat Man. Yes AI could be an aggregor. AI Algol Algorithm. Algol is the winking demon star as well. People at the helm of like AI and super computers know very much what they are doing. If there is such a thing as an antichrist it will come in the form of AI. Geordie Rose said D Wave computers would crack the dimensions and bring forth the Old Ones, similar to creatures and entities talked about in Lovecraft novels.
@@rendall1338 except that the actual Slenderman is a Creepypasta internet meme created by Something Awful forum user Eric Knudsen in 2009… And forgive me if creepypasta isn’t part of Reddit. It was my understanding it was a subsection of Reddit. I use neither of those pages so I couldn’t tell you much about them.
@@alaskabornheathen8902 don't worry I have never had a reddit account myself. I had thought creepypasta was just some literature site they posted scary stories on.
I have a question everything your naming what if someone is all and does chaos magic. What if I do all magic and I'm be apart of it all. Each thing you mentioned my spiritual path has drawn me to all.
Thought forms. When we give thoughts enough energy they do become independent beings in essence. At least that’s how several sources such as the Law of One and what the Egyptian sources knew as the God Ra (Venusian beings who largely evolved through harmony to higher-light being levels closer to the original Source) claims. Ra isn’t one being but what Ra, through the transcribed channeling in the 80s by L/L research refers to as a social memory complex, which is a combination of many mind/body/spirit complexes (beings) who reached such vibrational harmony that they are now able to directly share all memories/knowledge and are essentially individual cells in a larger body. The readings are highly technical but soooo enlightening.
Great explanation. I enjoyed this video. I am just wondering your opinion on individuals who practice chaos magick and they have a daily ritual where they recreate their sygil every single day and charge it by burning it. I know you said that you should just create it one time then forget about it, but do you think this method is also effective?
Thors Hammer. Great. I have heard of people using this to clear the dead. Some version. I' had issues with hauntings and It still happens sometimes. I'm trying to find a way to protect and gain power. Near Chicago.
I'm a little late to the party. I imagine chaos magic and magic from deities can coexist. I see chaos magic is power from self and divine magic from the Gods.
🌪️I think I need to reevaluate my interpretation of Chaos Magick. Because of the word "chaos" I've seen it like the Peter Principle, instead I need to see it as anything is possible.
My daughter's greatest friend died last night and gave her a box before hand. She has not opened it but the young lady was well known and called a chaos witch... I have never come across such in 47 yrs of practise... should my daughter seal the box.. and being a very young new practiceing..is shein any danger
So... I got a problem... I didn't even know about the existence of these magics or things, but chaos (both as concept and symbol) had appear to me during my everyday activity, at one point I started using hand signs to try and "propel" this thought forward and... it started working... soon enough with hand signs I was able to perform way out of hand things like altering the space around me to a degree, but just recently someone close to me told me about how it reminded them about this magic and how it works, and so my question, is it possible to use these magics without even knowing them like it happened to me? or is my situation connected to something else?
Chaos Magic!?...i am a chaos magician and i bring order to chaos...everything you say about CM is good...the term chaos is used to highlight bringing order to chaos...btw...you look marvelous!!
Following demons is really not why we were created by God. Love, compassion helping and caring for others is how we learn and grow spiritually. Don’t practice magic, witchcraft any kind of divination. Please.
I imagine setting up an offering of goods that are native to your local area would be a good idea, assuming you're trying to attract/appease a local spirit.
Your thoughts on this RB section; th-cam.com/video/2GBcOCutzhc/w-d-xo.html ? He is aware of things for sure and uses very specific wording. I didn't want to bother Gordon White with this since he probably wouldnt respond anyway :p Preserving the sanctuary if you have one is a great thing.
Agragore: Perhaps the present nation of Israel is an agragore. If you discover the modern movement to create the 'new' Israel, the trace goes back to at least the 1890s, which by conspiracy theory opens reinterpretation of World War II, as the Levant was a region that could not support a population due to degradation of the ecosystem and human overpopulation, but for a new nation of Israel to exist tens to hundreds of thousands to millions of Jewish would need to relocate from their comfort zone homes throughout the world to the Levant, where now the present Israel probably could not exist without Aid from the British Commonwealth of Nations, including our USA. So all these people were longing for it to happen and voila: Israel.
The Inner Child has believed for decades he could cast spells at any distance. Golly! 52% of voters did get 48% of voters’ Donnie out of Our White House. The inner child still wishes Donnie no harm if he could give up his narcissism and excessive weight. Non-violence is good, magic can be chaotic…
True chaos magick? Giving birth to your second...third....child! KNOWING the risks and physical pain involved in doing so! NEVER an easy task! Full of physical PAIN! PLEASE EXPLAIN PHYSICAL PAIN....or keep avoiding the conversation! M
AO Spare actually did not coin the term Chaos magick, some people might consider him a proto-chaote. He still is at the root of all Chaos Magick but he did not coin the term. Chaos is in reference to a lot of his cosmological ideas. It's essentially a stand-in term for God, Tao, etc. (a term to encapsulate that force without resorting to anthropomorphization). Liber Null by Peter Carroll is super accessible but still goes into detail about all of this stuff. Is a must-read for anyone interested in Chaos Magick
I like the paradox of the order/chaos cycle, which can be used in sigil workings and auto writing sessions. Characters such as latin or runic scripts can form sigils that will lose conscious meaning, formlessness potential out of symbols that had powerful meaning or information before their degradation and reformation.
I may have dabbled in Chaos magic without knowing it by the sounds of it. I’m a Libra and yes my life is pure chaos. I have been learning to be calm in the chaos though. If I focus on certain things that I really want I tend to get or achieve them. I notice that if I become distracted from what I want it doesn’t necessarily happen either the way I want or at all.
As someone with my Mars in Libra I can totally resonate with you on this.
Where I would disagree with you as a chaos magician is you can use deities and still be doing chaos magick. It’s about choosing to believe it at a certain time. It’s quite literally using ALL forms of magick available. What makes it chaos magick is the fact that you choose to believe in the practices you use, even religions, but you have to embrace them fully and allow yourself to believe in it for it to work. You can go from being a devout Christian for a week, and drop it then go to Satanism, then drop that and go to witchcraft. The power lies within the belief itself. It’s a mindset. So you can say “well that’s more norse paganism”, but what you’re missing is that it’s being used as a tool, you’re not following just that path, you go between different ones, you can CHOOSE to believe in the power of symbols. That’s exactly why it’s chaos magick. Youre right there, but just missing the point by a wee bit. This isnt me coming at you btw lol just clearing things up. You can choose to believe it’s all real all at once. That’s the beauty of it. You get choose what works for you personally. Also, in regards to sigils, aside from set it and forget it, you still need to take actions related to that sigil. Like if it’s about winning the lottery, you have to buy a lottery ticket. If it’s for a job, you still need to be actively looking. It’s more like asking the universe to help out the odds in your favor while actively pursuing what you want. If you set, forget, and do nothing, it’s lazy magick and nothing comes of it. You get nothing by doing nothing. If you want love, you need to go meet people. Basically it’s just trying to metaphysically stack the odds in your favor with things you’re already working towards in the physical world. As above so below, as within so without, as the universe so the soul. It still applies.
I made a sigil to stop drinking and i couldn’t believe it but i didn’t drink for 4 months. The magik works but I mine had a time limit. I need to create the sigil again but have been lagging.
Good video, but, need to correct something.
Austin Osman Spare lived around the Victorian Era and created the foundation of Sigil Magick with his Alphabet of Desire.
However, Chaos Magick was actually founded by Peter Carroll in the late '70's and used AO Spare's Sigil Magick as the basic starting point of Chaos Magick.
So, traditionally, Carroll is the Father of Chaos Magick and AO Spare is the Grandfather.
Also, Chaos Magick was the first Magick System to utilize The Multiverse as The Multiverse; so yes, it is Multidimensional.
I always wondered why my magic was different, I never did all the circle casting, tools... weather magic is what i love
Love this so much! I've always avoided calling myself a chaos witch, but I definitely do a lot of chaotic spell craft! I love to do spell craft that I feel like the ancestors might have done. Very "quick and dirty!" 🤣 Absolutely no ceremony, no calling quarters, just knowing my guides are with me and supporting me. I dont do much sigil work, but I've been dabbling with Runes and the Ogham. This video made me want to charge my business logo as a sigil to attract my ideal client! 💕
Chaos magicians can use different paradigms and things other than the psych model! Although they do use the paradigm and their beliefs in it as a tool deities are not completely excluded
I think tech is a way to harness magic in general. I was using spreadsheets for a class the other day and the way there are codes reminds me a lot of sigils and spells
yes! AI servitors are apparently a thing.
Your thoughts and questions on UAP/UFO’s are concise and intriguing! In live discussion, I only managed to make a quip about 🛸 UFO’s and to reference the X-Files. Those are actually really good engaging questions to ponder!
Wtf?
I don't usually comment on youtube videos, but this live stream was an amazing, thought provoking watch! Very informative and I hope I can catch one!
If you have kids chaos magic should be second hand am I right?
😂😂😂😂
Listening to this during a thunderstorm 🌩 I've always found Chaos Magick interesting but feel I do lean more toward Eclectic Magick - really enjoying your videos, would be great if you start doing more again, but understand that taking a break or doing less can also be necessary 💜
Yet another enjoyable, informative, interesting *Happy Hour!* Well done. ✅✅✅
Yes, you CAN create a monster 👹! P.S. Chaos Magick is often used to establish harmony, especially in a haunted home.
I have stopped by to listen to your views and opinions of a magical school to which I've been dedicated most of my life.
Egregor is the spirit, a type of collective embodiment of the group...It is the group spirit created and animated by occult meditations within the magic group.
🌪🌪🌪 Thanks Scarlet! I learned so much going to rewatch this again
Sorry missed this live . My view on this is .
Chaos magic is what is all around you you need to find a balance and learn to walk through this and use what you have at hand to. I find it funny how science is slowly proving my point the universe works in a very chaos manner you need to learn to understand this and work with it to be on this level is very inlighting
*enlightening
@@chuckfriebe843 who called the spell checker poilce
@@terryhayleypatterson7847 who taught you how to spell. I was trying to be helpful, but you just go right ahead and embarrass yourself by your own stupidity. Have a lovely day!
Because am dislexic and its extremely offensive to correct somebody's spellings over small mistakes . Think about how you would feel if you cant help but miss spell things and habing some one say there being helpfull it isnt helpfull at all
@@terryhayleypatterson7847 whatever you say.
It sounds like a magician with ADHD said screw it and made up a new practice 😂 I say that with love as someone who can relate
The part about sigil magic was really interesting for me. I am still pretty new to the multifaceted world of pagans and sometimes feel overwhelmed by the myriad of paths and possibilities. Is anyone using sigils in the described way while not following a totally agnostic path? I always was more on the „divine energies and subconscious mind“ side of things rather than on the „let us make a huge ritual with a hundred steps and ingredients“ page… but I do feel drawn to goddesses of different pantheons and ideas of reincarnation and could not identify with agnosticism.
I sometimes still feel I could need a „how to take yourself serious as a beginner without the comfort of THE authentic rulebook“ video 🙈
I only know one person who identifies as a chaos magician and as a neopagan eclectic witch I feel like they couldn't be any more different than myself 😅 insists were the same but idolizes Crowley and believes in a large variety of strange conspiracy theories and criptids. I appreciate this video because up until watching this I had a very negative experience with this type of practice 😬 still not for me as I'm very faith based but I definitely feel less uncomfortable about it lol
🌪️ definitely learned a lot!
🌪 🔥 🔥 🔥! Great Happy Hour sad to of missed it! Loved all the questions!!
Slenderman is a perfect example of an aggregor or a tulpa. It started on Creepypasta as an internet meme meant to terrify people in the modern world. But it has leapt out of the internet and into this world. Kids are affected by Slenderman. There were some young girls (around 12 if I recall) a few years back that had collected knives, rope and tape and went to the park to kill someone at night. They said Slenderman told them to do it.
And yes I believe we are all connected, which explains why we all experience the same things like the Shadow Man or Hat Man.
Yes AI could be an aggregor. AI Algol Algorithm. Algol is the winking demon star as well. People at the helm of like AI and super computers know very much what they are doing. If there is such a thing as an antichrist it will come in the form of AI. Geordie Rose said D Wave computers would crack the dimensions and bring forth the Old Ones, similar to creatures and entities talked about in Lovecraft novels.
Slender man never came from reddit. In fact slender man movies have been around for a long time before social media sites began popping up.
@@rendall1338 except that the actual Slenderman is a Creepypasta internet meme created by Something Awful forum user Eric Knudsen in 2009…
And forgive me if creepypasta isn’t part of Reddit. It was my understanding it was a subsection of Reddit. I use neither of those pages so I couldn’t tell you much about them.
@@alaskabornheathen8902 don't worry I have never had a reddit account myself. I had thought creepypasta was just some literature site they posted scary stories on.
Future pagan happy hour idea: spirit guides????
I have a question everything your naming what if someone is all and does chaos magic. What if I do all magic and I'm be apart of it all. Each thing you mentioned my spiritual path has drawn me to all.
It's all fun and games until you lock horns with a warlock
Thought forms. When we give thoughts enough energy they do become independent beings in essence. At least that’s how several sources such as the Law of One and what the Egyptian sources knew as the God Ra (Venusian beings who largely evolved through harmony to higher-light being levels closer to the original Source) claims.
Ra isn’t one being but what Ra, through the transcribed channeling in the 80s by L/L research refers to as a social memory complex, which is a combination of many mind/body/spirit complexes (beings) who reached such vibrational harmony that they are now able to directly share all memories/knowledge and are essentially individual cells in a larger body. The readings are highly technical but soooo enlightening.
Great explanation. I enjoyed this video. I am just wondering your opinion on individuals who practice chaos magick and they have a daily ritual where they recreate their sygil every single day and charge it by burning it. I know you said that you should just create it one time then forget about it, but do you think this method is also effective?
Thors Hammer. Great. I have heard of people using this to clear the dead. Some version. I' had issues with hauntings and It still happens sometimes. I'm trying to find a way to protect and gain power. Near Chicago.
I'm a little late to the party. I imagine chaos magic and magic from deities can coexist. I see chaos magic is power from self and divine magic from the Gods.
🌪️I think I need to reevaluate my interpretation of Chaos Magick. Because of the word "chaos" I've seen it like the Peter Principle, instead I need to see it as anything is possible.
Hi. Where did you go? I haven’t found anything from you in about a year.
The Gollum wasn't a thought form. It was created by a Rabbi and then the names of god were inscribed in such a way, that life was given to it.
Blessingsonblessingsonblessings!!!💗🌈💜
My daughter's greatest friend died last night and gave her a box before hand. She has not opened it but the young lady was well known and called a chaos witch... I have never come across such in 47 yrs of practise... should my daughter seal the box.. and being a very young new practiceing..is shein any danger
So... I got a problem... I didn't even know about the existence of these magics or things, but chaos (both as concept and symbol) had appear to me during my everyday activity, at one point I started using hand signs to try and "propel" this thought forward and... it started working... soon enough with hand signs I was able to perform way out of hand things like altering the space around me to a degree, but just recently someone close to me told me about how it reminded them about this magic and how it works, and so my question, is it possible to use these magics without even knowing them like it happened to me? or is my situation connected to something else?
yes!!èsame here no shit!
Chaos Magic!?...i am a chaos magician and i bring order to chaos...everything you say about CM is good...the term chaos is used to highlight bringing order to chaos...btw...you look marvelous!!
Harmony! 🎑
This was a FanTastic session.
Can someone be a practitioner of chaos magic and also be an eclectic witch?
Why not? 🎑
Chaos magic sigil is the black sun. It is black magic. It will break your consciousness.
Hope you're having a happy 4th of July.. 💚
Thanks for your sharing
Hey Im raven lipe Im just having a drink of Dr pepper and doing some witchcraft
*cue drink music*
It sounds more "matter-based" rather than "energy-based"
sorry if this was already answered but is there a difference between magicians and witches or are they the same thing?
Witches are hotter.
Can you be Wiccan and do chaos magick?
I know a number of people who happily practice both. Indeed, one of the most influential authors of chaos magic (Phil Hine) was big into wicca
Yes, you absolutely can bring in the lord and lady into your practice of chaos magick.
Following demons is really not why we were created by God. Love, compassion helping and caring for others is how we learn and grow spiritually. Don’t practice magic, witchcraft any kind of divination. Please.
🌪
You are gorgeous 🥰🥰🥰🥰
😊
Please make a video about real scarlett witch
I speak enochian
I wanna learn enochian, can you point me in a direction ?
Anyone have tips on how to setup an altar to work with púca ? 🤔
I imagine setting up an offering of goods that are native to your local area would be a good idea, assuming you're trying to attract/appease a local spirit.
@@drakarra 🌻
How you find your soul mate
Blessings beautiful! SKÅL
It sounds like law of assumption with extra steps lmao
Your thoughts on this RB section; th-cam.com/video/2GBcOCutzhc/w-d-xo.html ? He is aware of things for sure and uses very specific wording. I didn't want to bother Gordon White with this since he probably wouldnt respond anyway :p Preserving the sanctuary if you have one is a great thing.
🌪️
🌪🌪🌪🌪☕️
So you consider astrology to be a form of magic? Interesting....
Cycles are considered magic in alot of disciplines. It becomes woo-woo easily but has grounds in 'reality' no matter what
How do you get chaos magic?
Look into Neville Goddard it's essentially the same thing
🌪️🌪️🌪️
Nice yand you so beautiful 😁
Two years later and Chardonnay.
🌪🌪
Agragore: Perhaps the present nation of Israel is an agragore. If you discover the modern movement to create the 'new' Israel, the trace goes back to at least the 1890s, which by conspiracy theory opens reinterpretation of World War II, as the Levant was a region that could not support a population due to degradation of the ecosystem and human overpopulation, but for a new nation of Israel to exist tens to hundreds of thousands to millions of Jewish would need to relocate from their comfort zone homes throughout the world to the Levant, where now the present Israel probably could not exist without Aid from the British Commonwealth of Nations, including our USA. So all these people were longing for it to happen and voila: Israel.
Michael joe Robinson oneonta Blount county Alabama I'm drinking fruit drinks
Can ypu do more on Chaos Magick
Also
Alcohol lowers your vibration
I rebuke Satan in Jesus name amen
DO NOT MESS WITH demons You will regret it and you will bring curses on your blood lines
20 minutes of nothing?
The Inner Child has believed for decades he could cast spells at any distance. Golly! 52% of voters did get 48% of voters’ Donnie out of Our White House. The inner child still wishes Donnie no harm if he could give up his narcissism and excessive weight. Non-violence is good, magic can be chaotic…
So what chaotic, inhuman forces put the mindless dipshit we now have in office there?
How do you interrelate with Demons?
Very carefully
True chaos magick? Giving birth to your second...third....child! KNOWING the risks and physical pain involved in doing so! NEVER an easy task! Full of physical PAIN! PLEASE EXPLAIN PHYSICAL PAIN....or keep avoiding the conversation! M
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