No, This Couldn't Save the Empire.
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 11 ต.ค. 2024
- The TIE Defender is one of the ships that's always brought up as being able to save the Empire in Star Wars, especially if it replaced the Death Star, but it could not. No ship could save the Empire, because they didn't lose the war militarily.
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One thing I appreciate about Thrawn's Revenge is how it demonstrates that the Empire does _not,_ in fact, have poor military hardware. I think a lot of people have this misconception that somehow the New Republic "hard-countered" the Empire into oblivion because ISDs don't have point-defense or something. Uhhh no, the Empire collapsed because it had a shit political system wherein the state destroys itself when it doesn't have a single unifying leader.
Yep.
Fun Fact: The Executor crashed into the Death Star not because an A-Wing crashed into the bridge, but because all the chairs were on one side. Rearranging furniture is a serious topic.
The furniture actually was the ballast for the whole ship, ngl
The galactic empire would’ve fell into civil war sooner or later. With or without the rebellion. Too many ambitious and power hungry individuals who’s ego is egged on by Sidious himself. So much strife was there downfall.
Indeed, in fact the original mastermind behind the Tie Defender was actually pretty close to ousting Palpatine himself!
Not to mention that even with the Death Star it couldn’t be everywhere and it couldn’t destroy planets constantly. Rebellions we’re inevitable because Palpatine decided to make an empire first before making imperials. Then again it’s palpatine it would be out of character if he wasn’t constantly screwing people over.
Their*
@@LAV-III The point was not to destroy planets constantly, it was certain death for the first group who rebels. Much like nukes, it was ultimate terror weapon - if your planet gets blown up for revolting, then no one will dare to revolt unless enough planets at once revolts destroying them is infeasible, and Imperial Navy/Army could prevent that. You'd pretty much need complete collapse of the regime for any sort of rebellion to be possible with DS around, best rebels could do under it would be a nuisance but on such low level the planet doesn't reach nuke treshold and Palpatine would love that because misery and fear feed the dark side, population well being be damned...
@@cimcity1863 That's right, the Zaarin coup.
Palpy was so high on Great Man Theory that he turned himself into Load-Bearing Great Man of the Galactic Empire.
Palpatine is inverted Great Man theory, as in literally the Sith pyramid where all of society exists to serve his needs, not the other way around.
He really was. This was a flaw in his thinking, BUT it was a flaw that made sense. Dude was going to live forever and didn't care what happened afterwards. Even in the new canon, at most he would have accepted getting betrayed and replaced by an apprentice, who would then act as the new Load-Bearing-Great-Man. Silly in some ways, but makes total sense for a villain who thinks that way.
The real issue with mass producing a super-fighter like the TIE Defender, is that it won't be long before a pilot defects to the Rebels with one. That's why the Empire much preferred starfighters that didn't have hyperdrives. Only a few of their most trusted pilots got to fly advanced starfighters with hyperdrives, like the TIE Advanced X1 and the Alpha-class Xg-1 Star Wing (a.k.a. the 'Assault Gunboat').
I feel like for most Tie Defenders they could easily just not give it a hyperdrive by default. Depending on the source one is using, the hyperdrive can be the most expensive part of a ship, and there generally isn’t much of a reason to have it on the Defender unless they really needed it to do a long range strike or something only using fighters for some reason. So making it an optional module could probably fix that issue while also reducing individual unit costs.
Maybe I’m wrong, but that’s just my two cents.
@@woofwoof6419 I argue the Hyperdrive is one of the main reasons why the Defender would have been so effective against the Rebellion since Defender Squadrons would be more capable of quickly responding to rebel hit-and-run attacks as well as pursuing fleeing rebels
@@woofwoof6419 You could still defect to rebels by flying into hangar of one of their capital ships. It would be harder but not impossible. On the other hand, if Empire really did that the rebels could just offer massive bounties for anyone who defects with a ship to them and funnily enough TIE Defender speed and durability would make preventing defection hard...
Yes.TIE not having hyperdrive wasnt a bug, it was a feature
Here’s the thing. The TIE Defender has a failsafe in case someone steals one. So that problem is solved
The Empire lost becaust it was centralized around the Emperor, he built it in a way that it would collapse without him, and in case we didnt see that he also decided to orbital bomb Imperial planets after he died to get the point across
Trust me bestie, if we just fight our battles more effectively we can defeat this insurgency
Ironic that this can be used for actual wars too lol
@@raemont1328 hi not to be rude what do you think is ironic about that
@@spindlephysalia7564 That description, Losing a war but winning the battles, has happened several times in history and often enough the responce of the leading force was it to win the battles even harder, thus not changing their strategy to address the real reason teh war is lost Like the Vietnam War, Afgahnistan or even the Roman Conquest of Germania. So a fictional setting that explores a similar problem while the Empire makes the same mistakes is pretty Ironic.
@@raemont1328 I don't think that's irony? Star wars is quite famously drawing from vietnam, one of the most prominent "wow we won so many battles how come we lost the war?" wars in the public consciousness, there's nothing to create an expectation that it wouldn't have the same dynamics in its own world. It's just star wars adopting a historical dynamic, which star wars loves to do.
@@spindlephysalia7564 Tbh the Ewoks are the lames part of Episode 6. But to be serious again, the Response both of Real World Militaries and of the Empire to a Insurgency Situation like this often times leads to just that thinbking, we just have to win mroe efficently, which does not Change the Political Outcome, "You have the Clocks, We have The Time." is a fitting notion of it. And I do think thats Ironic, that so much Power can not archive its Goals because the People on top can not implement a better Strategy than just doing what their already good at, but more of it. Insurgencies can be either beaten by Extreme Violence, Mongol Conquests, or Indurrence, Rome's 50 Year Campaign in Spain, not by a missunderstanding the Battlefield and Poltical Landscape.
No matter what, the Imperial civil war would have eventually happened. Tarkin, Motti and other officers on the Death Star I contemplated seriously using the Battlestation to seize power. Zaarin showed that a high ranking officer could go rogue with a very large military force that was loyal to them, which paved the path for many of the future Warlords to realize they could potentially get away with that. The Empire was built on the concept of rivalry, backstabbing, distrust and competition, Palpatine and Vader were only barely keeping that restrained with coup attempts trying to dislodge them.
This would be on top of the Rebellion, IG-88's droid uprising(since he'd taken over the Death Star II's Computer Core) the other threats cropping up from the Ssi Ruuk, the Yevethan uprising, Jerec trying to become a God with the Valley of the Jedi.
Essentially the Empire was doomed to implode into infighting and instability eventually.
One thing people don't think about is how the other side will react to the changes. A historical example is germanys plan z in WW2. People like to argue that if germany had completed plan z they would have destroyed the royal navy. But that argument ignores th3 fact that the British would have built more ships to counter it.
If the empire had built better fighters or lancers, but the rebellion would have changed their tactics.
Exactly. Rebel pilots had better coordination and had better tactics plus they had much better situational awareness.
As good as the TIE Defender was, once the Rebels got over the shock of its initial performance (while stellar compared to regular TIE Fighters) they found that it had its flaws and weaknesses just like any other TIE. It was a bigger target, more expensive, more complex and there were certainly ways whether it be tactics or maneuvers that could be used to successfully bring it down.
The TIE Defender couldn't save the Empire because *nothing* could save the Empire. The Galactic Empire was it's own worst enemy by design.
@@Gamerguy826 I disagree; a great flaw in the Empire was its military choices, going for numbers and attrition over quality. Tie Defenders and more balanced fleet formations of ISDs + Strike Cruisers + Frigates + Corvettes + Interdictors would've allowed them to turn the tide in engagements like Endor.
I once had someone legit tell me Germany could have won WW2 by invading neutral Ireland and launching Sealion from there. As if the Royal Navy would do nothing to stop it because Ireland was neutral.
@@cass7448 England would most likely occupy Ireland similar to what happened to Norway.
Lancers and Defenders are hard countered by CR-90 Corvettes, which the Rebellion had plenty of.
Something about Empire fanboys thinking a singular new tool for the military would win the war always rubbed me the same as Wehraboos who still think that if Germany just built the next best panzer or whatever it would solve all their other problems.
The difference here is there is no glaring flaw or production limitations for TIE/Ds or Lancers, and in the case of the imperial starfighter Corp you are probably going to end up saving more money overall due to not having such a high turnover rate in pilot deaths, as training a fighter pilot takes years of resources, more so then the time it takes to produce a single fighter, even one as advanced as the TIE/D. In terms of costs it’s twice as expensive as a brand new T-65B X-Wing, but I would argue it’s twice as capable as well. I really don’t think any legends design after it ever surpassed it in capability. Unlike German heavy tanks of the Second World War which were just too heavy, didn’t have enough fuel, and didn’t have good quality parts leading to breakdowns.
To be honest, the empire had no business losing to the Rebellion in a conventional war. They probably would've collapse if Palpatine ever died, but they're not the N@zis, they actually have more manpower, resources, industrial capability, than their opponents. This is less ridiculous in Legends, but still pretty ridiculous.
Edit: I have to clarify, this is after Endor and Palpatine's death, before then, of course, the Rebels were not fighting conventionally.
@@captainkeyes1523 And then the rebels would just starting to offer bounties for defecting with TIE Defender and now you still have turnover problem along with way more painful fighter losses. And then there is issue of rebel squadrons armed with these ultra high performance fighters attacking stuff they couldn't touch in original canon...
@@KuK137 yes the rebellion that can barely afford a single central fleet is just gonna be able to bribe trained and indoctrinated fighter pilots and steal and keep TIE/Ds maintained. Never would have thought of that one. Truly strategic genius on display here/s
@@KuK137 the Rebels who can only afford one central fleet of primarily frigates and corvettes are going to be affording bounties for stealing a 300,000 credit state of the art space superiority fighter? And the trained, indoctrinated imperial pilots are going to be their main target for these bribes? I’m not sure if we watched the same movies or not but manpower was never something the empire had a problem with, even until Jakku their troops stayed at their posts and fought. If your counter argument is “oh the rebellion will just pay their pilots to swap sides” then I honestly don’t know what to tell you because that is in no way a serious or viable strategy.
"If Germany just built more [ Assault Rifles / Jet planes/ Super Tanks ] they could have won!"
"And pray tell, how do you just 'build more' when you have no fuel and no steel?"
Don't forget manpower shortages
Insert manadatory Steiner reference here
@@SSDConker2 and still had an incompetent Leadership
Germany’s industrial capacity and output were increasing till 1945. They produced more tanks and aircraft in 44 than any point prior.
yet the empire had more rescourses that they waisted on 2 death stars.
Very nice, but now I want that Obi-Wan in politics video.
Story's much the same but Obi Wan drinks more.
@@nickmalachai2227 2 grown kids with lightsabers vs an entire senate... fair...
Obi-Wan is too sassy for politics
You crappost but if he left for Sabine, and he should have, it might have happened. No man in Mandalore could read the room better.
His campaign slogan: “I am politician. I am not to be trusted.”
I disagree, the Tie Defender would have stopped Vader before he threw the emperor down the elevator shaft.
"Get down Lord Palpatine!"
As the brave fighter sacrifices itself for the glorious leader.
Straight through the window of the Emperor's throneroom. 😂
the A wing that survived the executor bridge crash now crashing into the death star bridge : hell yeah another boss kill with a emperor vader death star and tie defender 4x combo kill , pay rise and sick leave for sure this time , hope admiral fish face wouldnt mind the moisture farmer boy as a friendly fire now
Presumably in the "the Empire never builds the 2nd Death Star and invests in TIE Defenders instead" scenario, Luke, Vader and Palpatine are all packed into a TIE Defender's cockpit like sardines when they have their final confrontation and it's all very awkward.
@@sumukhvmrsat6347
Nah Luke uses the force to grab onto the A wing and hold onto it to get back to base.
@@sumukhvmrsat6347 A battle to rival duel of the fates
"Fear will keep the local systems in line. Fear of this triplane."
The Rebels: "Are you sure about that?"
@@merafirewing6591 "Send in the Flight Baron!" "Uhm, herr Kaiser, the Flight Baron appears to be defecting..."
No weapon would've saved them, but doing Defenders over Death Stars would've allowed them to last a decade or two more.
+1 for Jedi Prince reference.
Dictatorial Empires built on military force (or the threat of force) die quick. Most species attack out of fear, and social species are not an exception. This is why real empires built up or stole elaborate forms of legitimacy, and why Palpatine leaned into fanaticism as a form of legitimacy (although too little, too late, in my opinion). 20 years would be longer than I'd expect in real life, with how fast information and troops travel in Star Wars.
The TIE Defender program was fine for elite squadrons, but not for fleetwide implementation. It was way too expensive for that. But when it comes to an upgraded TIE Interceptor then we're talking.
Upgraded TIE Interceptor and upgraded TIE Bomber.
The X-Wing had shields of 50 SBD strength, and the Y-Wing had shields of 75 SBD strength.
Imagine an upgraded Interceptor with 25 SBD shields, and a Bomber with 50 SBD shields.
Coupled with their small size and better maneuverability, making them harder to hit than Rebel fighters, these shielded TIEs would have been almost an even match for the X-Wing and Y-Wing.
@@timonsolus look up the TIE Interdictor. I believe you'll lile that TIE Bomber upgrade.
Fleetwide implementation is a strawman argument though. No one with strong lore knowledge seriously argues for that. The video blatantly shifts from 'what if the Empire spent 2 Death Star's worth of cash on Defenders' to 'what if the Empire replaced their entire starfighter corps with defenders', which are completely different things.
@@tk-6967 fleetwide implementation doesn't necessarily mean replacment of all TIE fighters and interceptors. It could mean one squadron of defenders per carrier/ base. That's still way to much in my opinion. Leave this overpriced high performance machine to some elite squadrons and ship updsted interceptors to the redt of the stsrfighter corps.
It's almost like...Fascism doesn't work.
unrelated?
@@ahnok2855It's literally the point of the video I am begging you to have a modicum of media literacy
@@ahnok2855 The Empire is LITERALLY a fascist regime oh my GODS dude.
@@ahnok2855 Master, please teach me the ways of such ignorance! I must learn how to miss the most obvious sorts of themes and/or rhetoric in the media I consume.
"F-facism hasn't been tried yet!!!!! Palpatine wasn democratically elected and we CHOSE to keep him in power!!! He's a democratic emperor!! "
The empire was built around palpatine.
However no death star's means he wouldn't have Been on board.
Meaning there wouldn't have been a chance to get him
You’re right, the TIE Lancet would’ve saved the Empire
The plan to save the Empire is simple, we just need to build a bigger star destroyer, surely this won't be another massive waste of resources.
oh and we _gotta_ tell Thrawn about it. It's so fun giving the blue guy migranes!
The best thing that the second Death Star gave the Empire, was the chance to destroy the entire Rebel fleet. All in all, Empire is a classic pulp villain who always shows up with a more powerful and scary superweapon, so that destroying that one weapon will cripple them and allow for an easy and quick way to end the story with the good guys as the winners. The "Tarkin Doctrine" worked as a decent way to explain why they did this repeatedly. They simply believed in the fear effect wholeheartedly. Zahn also in his books made the suggestion that Palpatine being a dictator, preferred a few superweapons that are under his control, rather than a bigger and more flexible military that could turn against him. Looking at some real dictatorships, some aspects of this thinking are very realistic even if "planet sized planet destroying megabase" is a silly overkill no matter how you look at it. But to give credit to Palpatine, Death Star 2, was part of a good plan. Not only would they have crippled the Rebels who threw everything they had at it, even if more Rebels popped up later, the Empire would have at that point had their planet killer which would keep their enemies in line because without a weapon to surpass it, any rebellion would not be able to hold ground.
One thing too. With better equipment and fighters (especially ones with hyperdrives) it means that when Imperials defect they would be taking their far better equipment with them. So those one on one fights when the Rebels do their hit and runs might see Tie Defender face off against Tie Defender, negating the advantage of superior tech.
Imperials wouldn't be defecting so easily since Alderaan didn't happen
Palpatine would never have divested from scary star destroyers and death stars for better fighters and a more versatile fleet, so a fleet utilizing TIE-defender would not have been the Empire at all. So in affect yes the tie-defender could have saved the empire because it wouldn't have been the empire that used it.
There is a fighter that could have saved the Empire, that fighter is the X-Wing. Not because it was better, but because if the Empire just gave Incom a big juicy contract rather than trying to nationalize them all their designers wouldn't have run off to the Rebellion.
Same with the Mon Cals. Rather than trying to subjugate Mon Cala just put them all to work building Mon Cal cruisers. The Imperial Navy didn't even need to use them, just toss them in a black hole.
Yes, a galactic jobs program so everyone is to busy working & making fat stacks to bother with that whole Rebellion thing.
I maintain that defenders, or even shields on the basic ties, would have made the rebellions job much harder. Perhaps to the point that a new republic didn't form over a feudal or corporate government from a warlord. But i fully think you are absolutely correct that the linchpin was Sidious. The rebellion did not win with its own military power, but by the empire destroying its own.
Tie Defenders were never neccesary. Imperial Naval Doctrine is amazing if you look deeply into it. All crafts are given one major advantage instead of being turned into a jack of all trades, ISDs capable of annihilating anti-starfighter corvettes or other capital ships, but struggle with small fighters, Tie Fighters speed and manuevarablity give them an immense advantage at dogfighting added with more powerful better cooled cannons and best targeting system the galaxy offered, so ISDs are useless without Tie Fighters and same goes for other crafts.
@@garlixbread I have looked into it deeply, and maintain my stance. Though I will explain why as well as point out that I did also offer regular shielded ties as another option. ISDs carried a full wing if fighters, and as you said the ties were good. Faster and more agile than the X-Wings. But they had a critical flaw that had more to do with empire military culture that effected design, in that pilots were viewed as expendable. Expendable pilots led to a high loss rate and a general low level of experience, especially when compared to how good rebel pilots got. Light shields alone to survive a hit or an ambush would steadily add up. But why do I argue for the tie defender specifically? That actually comes down to the hyperdrive and the ion cannons. A hyperdrive allows scouting of neighbouring systems and the ion cannons allow a fighter squadron to cripple a small ship for capture and interrogation. Couple the pair and opportunities become much easier to exploit. I will fully admit it wouldn't have to be the whole wing on an ISD as defenders and could do much the same with a single squadron in each ISD of the fleet being replaced while the rest remains the old fighters. In combat the ISD packed the firepower while the fighter wing covered small threats like bombers and it typically worked, there's a reason the rebellion never made much military headway till the empire ripped itself apart, but the ability to capture raid or scout better would have helped quite a bit I think.
@@00yiggdrasill00 Tie Scouts exist as a model of fighters with hyperdrives, adding a shields to Tie Fighters would make them slower and prone to being hit more than before, plus X-Wing shields don't do much favor aganist the powerful cannons of the Tie Fighter as see in the OT. Tie Fighter pilots being viewed as expandable is more of a writing inconsistency as why would anyone sign up to become a pilot if you are likely to die, word of a pilot's life expectancy in the Empire would've gotten outside even among the Imperial Propaganda so not many people would join. It took 30 years to make Tie Fighters with shields with the same specs of the previous model, however that didn't really help the First Order
@@garlixbread sorry the late reply I got really busy. Yeah I had a feeling I should have mentioned the tie scout...but can you see it winning a dogfight with an X-wing? I personally can't. I would also disagree that shields make little difference even in the OT at yavin. The first DS held some of the most elite forces the empire had, and that included the pilots for the ties...and an under equipped rebellion gave them a hard fight, though no doubt Luke and the force made the difference. Shields matter greatly to survivability and pilot experience in some way even there. Moving beyond the movies. The empire developed the xg1 and put time into the tie avenger before the defender, and let's not forget the X-Wing was originally commissioned by the empire. they knew there was a gap in their capabilities and were at least moderately interested in filling it. We don't have to agree on this, but I thank you for the discussion anyway.
I’m sure a _third_ Death Star would’ve worked.
But see if they didn't build the Death Star then there wouldn't be a shafts to throw people into. TIE defender certainly didn't have any steep falls inside.
It’s really more a symptom of the problem (that the defender didn’t get proper funding) than a conflict changing decision.
More tie fighters, tie defenders, star destroyers, and frigates instead of death stars definitely could've won
Repeating Joseph McDonald, the best weapon is the one you have most of because then you can repair it. Obv this doesnt apply to the TIE fighter as its state of repair are factory fresh and shot out of the sky with no inbetween.
Also if Palpatine didn't order Piett to not attack the Rebel fleet when it jumped out of hyperspace inti Endor. The Imperial Fleet would have being given the upper hand as the opening salvo alone from the turbolasers could have devastated a lot of rebel ships during the battle's inception.
🤔 . . . So, what if the Galactic Empire changed most, but not all, of their political policies to ensure that the Rebel Alliance doesn’t have a valid justification to fight the Galactic Empire?
Then the Galactic Empire would just become the Galactic Republic again, which was the goal the Rebel Alliance wanted to achieved. Also, this would unfortunately be impossible to implement due to Palpatine constructing the Empire to primarily keep himself in power. Without the policies that Palpatine directly created or manipulated to be created, the Galactic Empire would not be the Galactic Empire.
Not entirely, @@therealslimweegee. All Palpatine had to do was simply not let his subordinates commit mass slaughter, make sure the citizenry’s needs are met, & then some, basically letting his subjects be ‘happy’ without letting the Imperial Senate debate on anything & such…
@@therealslimweegee I think there is a theoretical balancing point where the Empire remains a dictatorship entirely subservient to Palpatine's interests but doesn't incite any significant rebellion.
Make sure some of the CIS leaders survive - enough to sustain a forever-war but not enough to pose a serious threat, rebuild and industrialise the core and loyal worlds, double-down on the exploitation of conquered worlds and worlds outside the imperial core. If standards of living are passable and Palpatine's power is 'legitimised' by a permanent military crisis I think you've got a much more stable Empire that still puts Palpatine in a position of ultimate authority.
If you want to take it a step further, build a secret superweapon and claim it belongs to the CIS remnant. The Imperial superweapons factory was pretty damn good at keeping secrets and who's going to believe you're blowing up your own planets while at war? The existence of an enemy superweapon further justifies the 'emergency military powers' and dictatorship and it's a way to deal with planets that seem too rebellious or that contain rebel cells you can't track down.
Of course, it comes with the problems that if the CIS ever start winning, your position as leader becomes very unstable. Also if the threat ever gets wiped out you'd better hope nobody remembers that you used to be a democracy. So you have to be really cautious about who you promote, you don't want anyone competent enough to win the war but also nobody who truly believes that this is a fight to restore peace so that democracy can be restored and you don't want anyone too self-interested who'll bring the suffering back home to line their own pockets. It's possible, but requires so much political micromanagement that it might be easier to retain a nominal democracy and rig the election every time.
@@nickvinsable3798
Then he wouldn't be Palpatine.
Brilliant schemer, good politician, excellent Sith. But he totally sucks at actual ruling. He takes power and then spends most of it trying to find a way to jerk of with force lightning instead of actually ruling the galaxy he had just conquered. He obviously lacks the patience to administrate himself while all the people he delegates too are just scrambling for their own little fiefdoms and his favour. For the most part, his subordinates compete on how big their ships are, not on how to govern their sectors.
And every time he wants something done that's important to him, he sends out Vader who has to literally murder his way through a whole bunch of incompetent people until he finally finds someone halfway competent. Which he then also sometimes murders, making it even less efficient.
And I think it's good that way. Many Legends stories already gave Palpatine the Mary Sue treatment. Let him be bad at something. Especially something in character like this.
And there lies exactly what needs to be changed, mostly, @@hafor2846. He’ll get people who’re blindly loyal to him &, more importantly, are capable of actually doing their jobs & such. Even if he lets the Death Star be built anyways (a super secret project that’ll create an economic boom), his ‘military first’ policy wouldn’t actually be military first, rather, the military acts as a testbed of future technologies, technologies that’ll make its way into the civil markets, which you can find throughout our own history, such as national languages being a means of effective communication, primarily the written, not just the spoken, & more.
I would say building Tie Defenders or really anything instead of the Death Stars would have changed things, not militarily, but politically. If you don’t have a Death Star or another weapon capable of destroying planets, you don’t have Alderaan destroyed. Destroying Alderaan, a core world, seriously changed the political climate of the galaxy, giving much needed fuel for the brushfire that was the Rebellion. Taking away that fuel may be enough to keep the Empire around.
Changing the military might not be enough, but it if changes or more importantly, doesn’t change the political landscape, that might be enough to ensure the survival of the Empire for a bit longer.
That stretched too thin problem is also a thing with SWTOR's Great Galactic War.
I loved this video! I hope you'll make more videos like this one.
What you said about a lot of the imperial fleet not caring for the outer rim but seeing Alderaan as too far got me thinking. There had to be some former Imperials that maintained some of their speciesist views right? As far as I know it really isn’t mentioned anywhere
Mace killing Palpatine, as far as scenarios go, is honestly far less interesting than _Yoda_ killing Palpatine. Sure, the Sith have been defeated, but the Jedi Order is still on the run (anti-Jedi sentiment has already largely solidifed. The newborn Empire, meanwhile, is caught up in a power struggle between the Delegation of 2000 and all the various people who want to take the Empire for themselves.
And even then, the Force will be pissed at the idea of someone other than Anakin Skywalker killing Palpatine. Screwing up with the Chosen One prophecy will lead to inevitable reality crashes, in my opinion.
That's honestly a fascinating scenario.
Bro its a story, if Lucas wanted the Emprie to win it would have won.
I follow Mask CEO on Twitter and the fact that his post influenced this video is awesome
TIE defender has a hyperdrive. So for the price of a couple TIE defenders that can effectively patrol one system, you get a full squadron of TIE fighters, that can... only patrol one system as well. And of course these couple TIE Defenders will be much more effective than a squadron of TIE Fighters
They would not need to split three fighters one way for one Defender if they did not use the resources needed for the Death Stars. They would have more fighters overall if that funding was funneled to the Defender Program. I do wonder how they would have targeted Sidious without him purposefully making himself bait.
Luke could just fly to Coruscant to meet up with Vader instead of Endor, like it was even planned in RotJ concepts.
@@antonisauren8998 So the Rebels would attack Coruscant?
@@tk-6967 Innitial plan was to have DS2 over imperial capital, named Had Abbadon then. I'm not sure if fleet battle was in the cards at that point or just infiltration by Luke alone. Check out concepts for RotJ.
Well this is a loaded question because the rebels won because George wanted them to win, even if you change the equation the result will be the same became it was set in stone by George that the rebels win.
Everyone focuses on the Tarkin doctrine, without looking at the real reason for the Death Star's existence: planetary deflector shields. The rebels were able to install a deflector shield over Echo base that could "deflect any bombardment." The fleet was forced to resort to a ground assault, an assault that would have faced hopeless odds on a populated rebel stronghold like Alderaan or Mon Cal. With a completed Death Star, the Emperor could force these rebellious worlds to surrender.
But even a completed Death Star could not save Palpatine's empire, because the Dark Side brings with it what we could call pathologies. Palpatine puts up a good front, but he's not truly sane, and his empire's flaws are the inevitable result of those pathologies.
Or the Lancer Frigate - oh, you mention that too.
Great video! I'd like to see why Vader would fail to control the Empire, had he survived the Destruction of the 2nd Death Star and not gone back to the light side of the force.
I think the Executer did have a secondary bridge but it was either unscrewed or not fully staffed.
What the Empire ironically didn’t do was use politics to their advantage. The irony is the Republic lasted so long (some 25,000 years) because people had a way of airing their grievances and find political resolution.
9:39 Thanks, now I need to go mind wipe myself of that plot line again.
your "3 tie fighters in 3 different places is better than 1 tie defender in one place" statement is just flat out wrong. one of the biggest reasons the tie fighter was inferior to the tie defender was lack of hyperdrive. 3 tie fighters cant go to 3 different places because they need a carrier (which is bound to be more expensive than just making 3 tie defenders) to haul them around
Fair, but also raises another logistical concern for the Defender. It's bigger, with a more complicated wing setup, and standard Imperial ships have been set up with standard TIE racks for decades.
The logistics needed to actually field the Defender in mass would probably actually make the disparity greater than 3:1.
The defenders might be there, but that doesnt mean theyd be able to do anything. A defender isnt going to be ablw to say, destory a rebel convoy or wing of xwings they find. You still need to actually be able to win the fights you pick. Scouts are always useful, but the empire already has those.
A pack of convential ties may be bound to a carrier, but with the way the empire is set up those carriers would likely be able to deal with most things their ties couldnt. You might even have less pilot loses if the first salvo of the Tie swarm takes out the rebel fighters than the prolonged knife fight of shielded defenders vs shielded xwings.
@ianmckee4726 if you just watch star wars rebels you can see the difference. The ghost blasts through many ties and even blows up transports but against one defender they almost get shot down
@@dihoxide it doesnt need to latch onto racks because it HAS a hyperdrive. it can jump around on its own
@Shuinon it still need carriers. There's not enough room on board a the Defender for extended missions and they're highly complex machines in need of upkeep.
The Empire would have been better off displaying the death star's power on an outer rim world and using the fleet to blockade Alderaan for it's financing of terrorist organizations. Unfortunately the reason why the Tarkin doctrine was given the green light is because of Palpatine's own Sith doctrine being aligned.
If only the Empire shopped at Pottery Barn that Executor Deck Furniture would have been ultimate!
Rather than either weapons platform, what would have saved the empire was ramping up their misinformation efforts. Palpatine made sure to point out that it was he who engineered the Rebels getting the Death Star 2 location and specs, as well as knowledge that he would he there. If you can make the rebellion believe the truth, you can feed them lies instead. If the empire had tricked the rebels into to hitting civilian targets, or military targets with obvious consequence, they could paint the rebels with the same brush the rebels were painting the empire with. For example, we know the empire was fond of bio weapons, so they should have just gone “oh gee, you blew up our bio weapons lab. Now the bio weapons are loose. Aren’t those rebels reckless and careless?” or trick them into torpedoing an orphanage. Tldr: the evil empire needed to lie more.
In terms of defeating the rebellion, even though new anti imperial factions would likely rise for as long as the Empire existed, not creating the two deathstars and investing in other military pathways would have lead to a victory, swift or eventual.
Even if the deathstars were 1 trillion credits each as listed on wookiepedia (which are highly undervalued considering executor class SDs are listed for a believable 350 billion), the empire could have made 6,666,666 very expensive tie defenders at 300,000 credits a piece, allowing the average imperial pilot to gain an overwhelming advantage against a rebel pilot.
Further more, these fund could have been allocated to split the imperial navy into two, keeping the currant planitary defense and occupational fleets, while creating 'hunter' fleets which specialised in guerilla tactics like the rebels compromised mainly of tie defenders, the underutilsed arquitens and raider II class ships and star destroyers when needed. These hunter fleets could play the rebels game, relentlessly hunting them with overwhelming numbers allowing for no respite, and jumping out of hyperspace in mass numbers to support the imperial navy during crucial/large battles.
While the premis of hyspacing ships or torpedos into to planets to kill them wouldn't be as fear inducing as a purposebuild space station mobile laser, it would still cause fear nether the less as word eventually spread. IMO this loss in fear is totally worth the increased budget.
I feel the Empire would still choose to keep Produktion of the TIE Starfighter. But additionally having a Corps of half that size in DEFENDERS and Lancers would make a significant difference in my opinion. The Empire could have fast response patrols/bases to respond to rebel raids. Patrols well suited to counter rebel equipment. If they bite off more than they can chew they can still call a few Star destroyers.
Do a video on Lumiya and why there's such a big gap out-of-universe between her healing on the Executor and reappearing as a cyborg.
Honestly nothing could have saved the Empire, least as it was. It was far too corrupt, to military focused, and despite the later point still too overstretched. Even if the rebels didn't manage a threat, it would only have been a matter of time before a coup or assassination attempt on the Emperor (several of witch happened in both Canon and legends) by one faction of the Military lead to all out civil war. The Imperial Remnant in legends was really in a prime position to survive because it's core territory was in the north, left untouched by much of the fighting in the Southern Rim and Core, already centralized under the Pentastar Alignment, led by one of the best Imperial commanders (Pellaeon), and was at the end of a decade of war (while I'm not sure if this was a feature in any books, the New Republic would probably be suffering from significant war exhaustion even all while rebuilding a democratic government). Even then it almost fell apart because the Moffs grew overly ambitious, so they could have like the rest been wiped out. And the Imperial Remnant had made several changes which made it very distinct from the Empire of old, so overall the Empire had no chance at long term survival regardless.
The Emperor was too powerful to be successfully assassinated by anyone except Vader (the only one strong enough to kill him while simultaneously being hit by a massive burst of Force Lightning.
@@timonsolus Honestly I don't think so. During the Ghost Prison incident in legends he barely survived an assassination attempt via virus bombs. Yes it failed, but given that after Vader found a cure he still needed time to recover, it's not unlikely he would have ultimately died if they had been slower or even failed to find the cure. Yes it did fail, but given how close it was I doubt one could really say he was "too powerful" to be assassinated, especially with the many means it could be done without direct contact.
@@timonsolus 1v1 duels isn't the only way to assassinate someone though.
Look at what happened to Revan for a good example.
What doomed Palpatine was what put him on the throne in the first place. Being a Sith.
honestly, what was needed was a redesign on the basic tie so pilots aren't blinded to the sides/up.own by the restrictive side panels/viewing port! bubble canopy like with modern fighters! Having a clear all-around view is crucial in dogfights!
just tilt the panels on their sides and redesign the sphere body to have the top half as a transparisteel bubble canopy
best of all, that do almost nothing to raise the COST of the basic Tie!
The Death Star cost "over a trillion credits" (which shows less the Empire's spending and more how ridiculously cheap spaceships are compared to real-world military hardware), which would be enough for 3.333 million Defenders. Do you think the Empire is competent enough to use those ships effectively? Fuck no! They'd all be wasted sitting on board Star Destroyers or in racks on planetary installations instead of actually taking advantage of their strengths.
Like any dictatorship, the dictator makes himself the focus of the regime instead of making a self sustaining government. They make themselves so necessary for their regime to work that without them it all falls apart. Which is also the point as most believe if a government cannot protect its leader than it does not deserve to thrive. Often forgetting that they will eventually pass due to old age or sudden hero death😂
papa palpatine should have just made kids and have one of them be his ''heir''
Unpopular opinion but standard TIE/ln's weren't all terrible. They had two purposes, to counter most fighter craft in the galaxy, which they did before the Civil War, and to be an ever present reminder. They were faster and more menuverable than most fighters, including the newer X wing, meaning an slight edge in dogfighting. Now dogfighting isn't everything in SW, but it certainly seems that starfighter combat quickly devolves into dogfighting once an engagement starts.
X wings will have difficulty taking on 2 TIE fighters at once, as really most fighter craft would, but 3 or more and any fighter really is in trouble. There really is a real strength in numbers for TIE fighters.
Muntitions and sheilds are important, but sheilds give you a second or two, thats it. Muntion launchers are excellent against meatier or capitol grade targets.
Now you can imagine why the TIE Interceptor was feared by rebel pilots. They were even more menuverable and fast. It had insane acceleration, a top of the line targeting computer, and 4 to six newer, more powerful ls9.3 guns. Not to mention the Empire put Ace's in these
This has the thumbnail and title of a german ww2 wonder weapon debunking video
5:40 I strongly disagree with this. The Rebels wouldn't have any strong support base without the Death Star, and the TIE Defender argument doesn't mean the Empire sacrifices its other fighters whatsoever.
As you yourself mentioned, the argument is that the funds that went towards building *the Death Star specifically* should have gone to the TIE Defender project, or simply naval advancements in general. In that scenario, the Empire's pre-existing Starfighter Corps doesn't magically disappear as you suggested.
Whilst I agree that Imperial civil policy should have changed to counter the Alliance, the Rebels didn't have the resources or support to defeat the Empire militarily and relied entirely on military and political blunders. With the Tarkin Doctrine no longer being in place and the Navy being better, it seems inconceivable that the Rebels could win.
I mentioned that myself because I was covering /*two*/ possibilities for where the resources would be shifted from- coming from the Death Stars is one model, and the other model is coming from other Starfighters, since people do often make the argument that the Empire should have made better starfighters *instead* of the bad ones, and that's why I addressed them separately.
A Lancer, but made of Tie Defenders. I think it could beat the rebellion.
Go for the middle part, TIE interceptors
No matter what the situation is the Rebels always get an X factor because, well, the good guys have to win. I think the superweapon angle gets downplayed a lot because all of them ended up failing for the exact same reason. One squad goes in, sabotages, gets out, etc. It became so formulaic that it's now a sort of expectation that everything big is designed to fail, despite each victory being "one-in-a-million"
As far as investing in better ties or frigates goes, well the X factor there would be that the Rebels would just steal them. They managed to do that already with the Nebulon B being one of the largest they could consistently crew. And it wouldn't be hard to pencil into the story either while making sense. A defecting Imperial pilot, a hangar raid, a convoy interception, doesn't matter. In fact you could argue that this would be worse for the Empire since they'd be getting their hands on hyperdrive-enabled top-of-the-line craft doing the same guerilla engagements.
Let’s be real; it’s plot armor and over stressed Imperial logistic that win the war for the rebellion, not X-wing or lack of Tie Defenders
the tie defender would have bought time most of battle on star fighter level and rebels did not engage star destroyers head on. also tie fighters lack hyperdrives so very limited what they can defend. they can not escort ships once they went to into hyperspace. So once dropped out hyperspace it vulnerable. Sometime the rebels took full advantage off. How ever once empire fell and no darth Vader the empire would broke apart.
It's an excellent analysis but I have somewhat of a problem with the conclusion.
Basically the only way the empire is going to choose build star fighters or frigates instead of a Death Star is if the Empire doesn't embrace the Tarkin doctrine. Such an empire is fundamentally politically different, more like Thrawn's Empire of the Hand than the canonical Galactic Empire.
That Empire would still likely be an extension of Palpatine's personal power and collapse if he were to die or be incapacitated. But Palpatine died because he felt the need to be personnally present on the 2nd Death Star. Obviously, the empire building superweapons and Palpatine traveling personnally to the 2nd Death Star to confront Luke are inherent to his character and fundamental to the story.
But if, just for fun, you step back and say "what if Palpatine was content to run a dictatorial, but non-meglomaniacal empire", than I think it becomes plausible that such a hypothetical Galactic Empire could have survived until Palpatine died of old age, presuming he didnt find some way to preserve his life indefinitely. At that point, the empire is of course destined to fall into succesion wars.
The decision from a purely military, tactical standpoint to build fighters or support craft vs. a Death Star wouldn't be significant militarily, but not building Death Stars would also mean not embracing the Tarkin doctrine and fundamentally not being the same kind of empire politically.
My counter is this. More defender s.or advance models means more pilots survive, likely more compotent commanders will arise and a better fleet. Pals being pals is still an issue bit with out the pr disaster of alderaan less defectors better air superiority in enagements means better chance.of.vocotry even if it means the rebels just flee. And in interdictors and their goes that idea. The big difference between Nazi Germany and the Empire is the Empire is not the underdog fighting against restrictions.
Tie Defenders would not have been the propaganda targets the Death Stars were.
Tie Defenders and Lancers would have much less strain from a logistics/supply chain challenge and drain then Death Stars and Super Star Destroyers would have been, so the Empire could have covered more space for a longer period of time.
The Palpatine centric rule would still have led to its collapse, no disputing that, but the longevity of the Empire would have been much greater, and perhaps in time, even a true successor would have emerged (a Luke turned to the dark side replacing Vader for example). The Tarkin Doctrine hastened the Empire’s fall though no doubt about it.
Thousands of Lancer Frigates could have saved the Empire.
The resources were there already they just used them wrong
The Lancers also had massive issues. Namely, they were slow. Extremely, extremely slow. Ancient bulk freighters could keep pace with them. Rebel fighters could simply outrun them when they were in the field to avoid them. They had no anti capital ship weapons, so in engagements they were easy prey for Rebel corvettes and frigates. If they were deployed with a fleet then the fleet has to go extremely slowly to allow the Lancers to keep up, which means said fleet is completely immobile.
The Empire rarely knew /where/ large numbers of Rebel fighters would hit, which was a harder thing to know where to deploy Lancers to. And they had a near infinite number of smaller craft they could put to such places instead that were more effective. Lancers thus were mostly left to garrison duties on important stations or convoy escort.
And the Empire did have TIE Defenders at Endor. Limited numbers, yes, but they were present.
Maybe Crusader corvettes?
Hello there
It would Of Made the empire win if Admiral Zarian didn’t have to betray the empire
The Empire would have won had they just liked and subscribed.
The Empire fell because it's unnatural.
The What-If scenario that would have saved the Empire is if the Stormtroopers didn't kill Owen and Beru. Luke turns down crazy Old Ben and joins the Imperial Academy like he planned. Talented pilot with supernatural reflexes named Skywalker from the planet Tatooine born the day Padme died raised by Anakin's step-brother would get Vader's attention.
That's an interesting scenario. Imagine crazy old Ben Kenobi taking Luke back to Uncle Owen's farm, and then stealing his land speeder and the 2 droids, so he could get to Mos Eisley spaceport - and hiring Han and Chewie to take him to Alderaan.
Could Obi-Wan, Han and Chewie rescue Princess Leia without Luke's help? Difficult, yes, but perhaps not impossible - particularly if Tarkin and Vader deliberately let her escape so that they can track her. Problem is, the Rebels can't destroy the Death Star without Luke - unless Obi-Wan survives and escapes somehow, and flies the mission himself.
The other alternative is that Kenobi rescues Leia from the Rebel base on Yavin 4 just before it gets blown up by the Death Star. The Rebellion is crushed. Kenobi takes Leia to Dagobah to be trained as a Jedi by Master Yoda. Leia trains for 4 years on Dagobah, and becomes more powerful than Vader.
@@timonsolus Obi-Wan would need to stay in the fight and not sacrifice himself. It would come down to Luke vs Leia.
Luke would absolutely be trained as an Inquisitor. Palpatine would want to replace Vader with Luke and Vader would want to replace the Emperor and have Luke as his apprentice.
@@jiffypoo5029 : I thought all the Inquisitors were former Jedi? Luke doesn’t fall into that category.
Excellent points
Not really. It is a, for lack of better term, de facto strawman of the Defender argument since the Defenders replace the Death Star, not the main imperial starfighter corps, so the problem posited by Corey wouldn't happen.
Are you trying to outsmart THRAWN? What he says goes, don't want to be killed by a Noghri.
Like he was killed by one?
(Legends)
Ironic considering that it was his own personal Noghri bodyguard who ended his reign in Legends. If anything that should prove that Thrawn, for all of his military genius, was not infallible.
What if Grand Admiral Zaarin survived his insurrection! What if he had dragged it out past the Battle of Endor?
The Empire could have been saved if they weren't insane maniacs for no reason.
If it were me as a pilot like TIE Fighter's Maarek Stele, though, I would not have given a damn about what happens to the Empire on Endor and after. A guy like me would have already been content with flying a fair share of supercraft, getting a nice killcount on Rebels/traitor Imperials/pirates, acquiring a whole kazoo of medals and Secret Order rankings, and so on and so forth. In short, a guy like me would have led a more glory fulfilling life than even Keyan Farlander's and Ace Azzameen's... won't be surprised if that will lead to being isekai'd to fly for an elite Omniversal defense squadron or something afterwards.
As an aside, I don't get the hype for the Disney Canon Thrawn-Elsbeth TIE Defender. A slower, no ion cannons iteration with not a single memorable ace pilot worth naming on their ranks compared to the Legends Zaarin variant just didn't intrigue me much. Also, Missile Boat needed more love, for I adore overpowered things.
If only Palpatine was just a bit… nicer..
I despise "What If?"s. Things happen in sequence from cause to effect, otherwise story is nonsense. As this video proves with example of Star Wars.
You're right on the political side of it, certainly, but the military aspect remains quite relevant. The Empire for numbers and attrition over quality. Just look at the Endor order of battle, ISDs + Executor and a bunch of Tie Fighters and Interceptors. It's a very weak fleet arrangement. Tie Defenders, Missile Boats, hell even mass formations of Tie Bombers targeting the Rebel ships would've been deadly. Add to that a more balanced fleet formation of ISDs + Strike Cruisers + Frigates + Corvettes + Interdictors, it would've realistically allowed the Empire to hammer the Rebel fleet, especially with the Death Star destroying Mon Cal cruisers one after the other.
It's the Emperor who ordered those advanced weapons sidelined or even mothballed (the Missile Boat) in favor of shittier fighters, and the defeat is 100% on him, but it's an entirely realistic proposition to think the battle would've gone differently with a better order of battle.
I think even without a resource re-allocation (Defenders instead of DS2), just the existing advanced fighter formations would've been enough to turn the tide in a decisive battle. Without the colossal waste that was the death stars, the Imperial Fleet would've had all the resources necessary to root out the Rebellion. Especially since without the DS you have no Alderaan destruction, therefore far less Rebel recruitment
Same as the argument that the tiger or komet would’ve saved the Germans
Wait, some specific wonder weapon being able to completely change the course of a war, where have I heard this story before?...
Not at all comparable since the Allies had already won the war by the time the Wunderwaffe were produced, and most of the Wunderwaffe were total dogshit ideas.
The tie defender sounds like a wunderwaffen some empireboo cries could have saved rhe empire 50 years aby.
As usual the answer to how the Empire could have won remains "Be less evil, stupid."
Fundamentally, Alderaan was a worse loss for the Empire than ten Death Stars. Palpatine spent decades subtly manipulating people in order to achieve absolute power, then as soon as he fries his own face into pudding he totally loses all sense of how to actually win allies. Just do a 1-1 comparison of how he tried to turn both Anakin and Luke to the Dark Side - He literally anti-turned Luke, he was so cacklingly absurdly evil that Luke snapped back to his senses after nearly killing his father.
Interesting you mention Alderaan when with no Death Star, that would never have happened, meaning the Rebels never get their big military and propaganda victory, and with a stronger navy to put down their fighters, the Rebels have nothing.
yes but how would it change the rebels???
Proving as always that counter-factuals are fun, but not scientific or truly useful endeavors
Sadly, no, the defender would be thrown at every problem the Empire has, though it is one the strongest and the bestest (it's a word! 😅) strike craft in the galaxy. It would be used and abused by incompetent commanders, and someone would just mass produce them completely ignoring the need for dedicated interceptors, bombers, and all the other necessary craft in between these classes that are necessary for a modern galactic military force to function.
The Empire would've been better off by far if it focused on making good commanders that will think outside the box to achieve the Empire's goals. More people like Thrawn, Paelleon, and our favorite ISB director and Clone Wars veteran (forgive me! I forgot his name 😥) could've made a bigger impact on the Empire and the Galaxy as a whole if they didn't reward the "yes men" and most backstabby morons that Palpatine always simped for.
@@austinguthrie5528 Wullf Yularen
"The Empire could have won" arguments tend to remind me of Wehraboos trying to justify how Nazi Germany could have won WW2. Both regimes were beholden to the maniacal ideologies of their respective leaders, which meant they were bound to go down the routes they did. If you try to change that, well, then they wouldn't be Imperials or Nazis anymore respectively, and there would have been no need for wars to happen in the first place. By the time cooler heads like Pellaeon took over the Imperial Remnant in Legends they were beyond any chance of wresting the galaxy back completely from the New Republic.
6:51 where is that clip from?
Outlaws
@@CoreysDatapadhm I don’t remember that at all
Its not any 1 thing. As the dominant government, they could've adapted to every single strategy the Rebels pulled simultaneously. ANY shielded TIE would've let them hold their own at the starfighter level. A shielded TIE with hyperdrive? C'mon. Properly used Interdictors could've controlled strategic battle locales.
If only the Empire had more oil reserves...oh wait wrong Fascist empire.....