I did the Munter Hitch rap on the winter lions head route on Mt. Washington in NH. I had purchased a Petzl Rad System for routes like this (Dealing with steps that required a few moves) or for getting cliffed out skiing. I have added a Grivel Scream, a dynema double length sling, two small prussiks, a snapper, and two HMS lockers to round the kit out at a full on minimalist glacier kit, even if there is little likelyhood that I would need that in New England. With the inclusion of a PETZL Fly harness the whole system packs down to the side of a football or insulated Nalgene bottle. It's pretty sweet. My partner and I were planning to use this minimalist rap and accent kit for this one step. when we got there, a group of ice climbers had set up the rappel before us so we decided to use the other team's rope. I had to set up munter hitch to rap off of as a change of plans. I also did drop my ATC once while doing Rappel instruction with my sister on some low angle slab as well.
Thanks for sharing your story! That system you describes sounds pretty cool. My last rappel off a Munter was when the whole family (4 climbers) was off to do a little two-pitch sport climb and I forgot to pack one of our devices. We sent my wife down on one device, then I fixed the line and we sent the boys down together, one strand each, and then I unfixed and I went down on the Munter.
An issue with the first system (I know it as the "carabiner brake" in the Austrian alps ) is that the topmost carabiner can rotate sideways and slip over the entire middle carabiner thus losing a lot of the friction. That's why I learned to clip the topmost carabiner to only one strand of the rope in the last step. Also the system is really dependant on the relative size of the carabiners used. Works best with similar sized carabiners.
I actually had to descend last weekend with a double stranded munter since I forgot my rappel device at the bottom. I was always taught that the brake position is up and that this also twists the rope. Besides not being able to back it up with a friction hitch, is there any reason you don't do that while rappelling?
Well, the two are related. It is far, far more risky to rappel without a friction hitch backup; we've lost redundancy and have no safety mechanism if we are hit from falling debris or the like. Then it is even riskier still to try to work against gravity to hold the breaking position, pulling up all the rope weight that is below you. That friction hitch material is going to wear out a lot more slowly (thousands of rappels) than our arm muscles (maybe a few rappels). So, we've increased risk in two different ways by not using that friction hitch.
Though no longer a climber, when I taught new folks to the sport I always taught 2 means of belaying and rappelling by other means should equipment be lost. Gone are the days of Carabiner break bars and figure 8's. I am glad to see that the habit is still in practice; stuff happens.
I get not wanting soft goods to rub under tension *but* as you descend only the rope above the belay belay should be under tension as you move down the rope. The rope between the belay and the third hand Autoblock will only be weighted if your belay fails, in which case the extender won't be weighted. So why the need for a second biner?
I think it has more to do with the various different kinds of soft goods people now use. For example, dyneema has a really low melting point and so just rubbing (not cutting) might be any issue over many rappels.
In the first method, is it safe if all the crossing between carabeaner and rope are reversed, so that from the top the rope starts going below the carabeaner instead of above? This happens if when you start setting it up you don't remember if you have to pull a bight of rope through the carabeaner from above or from below...
I don't think that would matter a lot. The bigger concerns are keeping the rope from dragging the carabiner gates open. I guess that could be more or less of a factor based on how you thread the ropes depending on which side of the setups the gates are on.
Why don't you set up the supermunter with the tail also going to the spine, rather than the gate? You'd have to completely redo the munter, but if the tail running over the gate is a concern on a standard munter why is it not with a supermunter?
Love this question, as it is the major drawback of converting to a super-munter off of a munter. It's actually really hard to tie that way. You can just start with a munter and then clip the extra strand because the munter tail is on the wrong side. So, you'd have to tie the whole thing "in the air" and then clip through. Given how much space the hitch takes on the carabineer, that'd be pretty hard. I don't think it would be impossible, but you should play around with it and see if you find a good procedure. Because, you are right: having the strands gate side is a drawback of tying it this way.
I got the air supermunter relatively smooth, but I don't think it's worth the effort. I'd also worry about missing a strand when clipping all six strands of a supermunter, considering I'd be in a state of mind where I've already dropped a belay device. I tested missing a strand, and it doesn't obviously fail when body-weight testing it while tethered at an anchor like mis-clipping a normal munter does. Rather, it turns into an unrecognizable tangle a foot or two down the line, which could cause some alarm. It didn't seem to slip, but I'm testing at low angle terrain. Missing two strands could result in a supermunter on one side of the rope, and simply clipping the other. That is definitely deadly. Overall, building the supermunter slowly from a munter, and frequently checking your gate seems to be the best option. Clipping 6 strands with one hand while holding the hitch with the other is a terrible idea. These are emergency techniques, and breaking them down into individual steps that are hard to mess up rather than one complicated step that can kill you is the correct move at heights.
@@ShortGuysBetaWorksisn't the solution just to tie the munter backwards so that, before converting to the supermunter, the brake strand is on the gate side?
@@Outsidersman @Outsidersman If we assume the ends of the rope aren't available (maybe you tossed the ropes and dropped your rappel device as you tried to attach it), then having the munter tied backwards would mean that you couldn't re-clip it once running the strands behind the hitch; they would be on the spine side.
I did the Munter Hitch rap on the winter lions head route on Mt. Washington in NH. I had purchased a Petzl Rad System for routes like this (Dealing with steps that required a few moves) or for getting cliffed out skiing. I have added a Grivel Scream, a dynema double length sling, two small prussiks, a snapper, and two HMS lockers to round the kit out at a full on minimalist glacier kit, even if there is little likelyhood that I would need that in New England. With the inclusion of a PETZL Fly harness the whole system packs down to the side of a football or insulated Nalgene bottle. It's pretty sweet.
My partner and I were planning to use this minimalist rap and accent kit for this one step. when we got there, a group of ice climbers had set up the rappel before us so we decided to use the other team's rope. I had to set up munter hitch to rap off of as a change of plans.
I also did drop my ATC once while doing Rappel instruction with my sister on some low angle slab as well.
Thanks for sharing your story! That system you describes sounds pretty cool. My last rappel off a Munter was when the whole family (4 climbers) was off to do a little two-pitch sport climb and I forgot to pack one of our devices. We sent my wife down on one device, then I fixed the line and we sent the boys down together, one strand each, and then I unfixed and I went down on the Munter.
An issue with the first system (I know it as the "carabiner brake" in the Austrian alps ) is that the topmost carabiner can rotate sideways and slip over the entire middle carabiner thus losing a lot of the friction. That's why I learned to clip the topmost carabiner to only one strand of the rope in the last step. Also the system is really dependant on the relative size of the carabiners used. Works best with similar sized carabiners.
Nice call outs. All the systems have strengths and weaknesses.
I actually had to descend last weekend with a double stranded munter since I forgot my rappel device at the bottom. I was always taught that the brake position is up and that this also twists the rope. Besides not being able to back it up with a friction hitch, is there any reason you don't do that while rappelling?
Well, the two are related. It is far, far more risky to rappel without a friction hitch backup; we've lost redundancy and have no safety mechanism if we are hit from falling debris or the like. Then it is even riskier still to try to work against gravity to hold the breaking position, pulling up all the rope weight that is below you. That friction hitch material is going to wear out a lot more slowly (thousands of rappels) than our arm muscles (maybe a few rappels). So, we've increased risk in two different ways by not using that friction hitch.
Though no longer a climber, when I taught new folks to the sport I always taught 2 means of belaying and rappelling by other means should equipment be lost. Gone are the days of Carabiner break bars and figure 8's.
I am glad to see that the habit is still in practice; stuff happens.
Thanks for giving back to climbing, appreciate it. 🙏 And, yes, stuff happens. Self-sufficiency is easy when everything is okay; but when it's not...
I get not wanting soft goods to rub under tension *but* as you descend only the rope above the belay belay should be under tension as you move down the rope. The rope between the belay and the third hand Autoblock will only be weighted if your belay fails, in which case the extender won't be weighted. So why the need for a second biner?
I think it has more to do with the various different kinds of soft goods people now use. For example, dyneema has a really low melting point and so just rubbing (not cutting) might be any issue over many rappels.
In the first method, is it safe if all the crossing between carabeaner and rope are reversed, so that from the top the rope starts going below the carabeaner instead of above?
This happens if when you start setting it up you don't remember if you have to pull a bight of rope through the carabeaner from above or from below...
I don't think that would matter a lot. The bigger concerns are keeping the rope from dragging the carabiner gates open. I guess that could be more or less of a factor based on how you thread the ropes depending on which side of the setups the gates are on.
Why don't you set up the supermunter with the tail also going to the spine, rather than the gate? You'd have to completely redo the munter, but if the tail running over the gate is a concern on a standard munter why is it not with a supermunter?
Love this question, as it is the major drawback of converting to a super-munter off of a munter. It's actually really hard to tie that way. You can just start with a munter and then clip the extra strand because the munter tail is on the wrong side. So, you'd have to tie the whole thing "in the air" and then clip through. Given how much space the hitch takes on the carabineer, that'd be pretty hard. I don't think it would be impossible, but you should play around with it and see if you find a good procedure. Because, you are right: having the strands gate side is a drawback of tying it this way.
I got the air supermunter relatively smooth, but I don't think it's worth the effort. I'd also worry about missing a strand when clipping all six strands of a supermunter, considering I'd be in a state of mind where I've already dropped a belay device.
I tested missing a strand, and it doesn't obviously fail when body-weight testing it while tethered at an anchor like mis-clipping a normal munter does. Rather, it turns into an unrecognizable tangle a foot or two down the line, which could cause some alarm. It didn't seem to slip, but I'm testing at low angle terrain. Missing two strands could result in a supermunter on one side of the rope, and simply clipping the other. That is definitely deadly.
Overall, building the supermunter slowly from a munter, and frequently checking your gate seems to be the best option. Clipping 6 strands with one hand while holding the hitch with the other is a terrible idea. These are emergency techniques, and breaking them down into individual steps that are hard to mess up rather than one complicated step that can kill you is the correct move at heights.
@@forresthsu582Thanks for messing around with it and sharing your thoughts. That's what a climbing community is supposed to do! ❤🙌💥
@@ShortGuysBetaWorksisn't the solution just to tie the munter backwards so that, before converting to the supermunter, the brake strand is on the gate side?
@@Outsidersman @Outsidersman If we assume the ends of the rope aren't available (maybe you tossed the ropes and dropped your rappel device as you tried to attach it), then having the munter tied backwards would mean that you couldn't re-clip it once running the strands behind the hitch; they would be on the spine side.
thanks
Hope it helps... well, I hope you never have to use it, but then I hope it helps 😂