This eye contact argument is so f*cking absurd when talking via Zoom etc. It’s wrong anyway, but on a video call, eye contact is literally IMPOSSIBLE! When I look at the other person’s eyes on the screen, for them it seems that I’m NOT looking into their eyes, because I’m not looking directly at the camera. And when I look directly at the camera to give them the feeling that I’m looking at their eyes, I cannot see their eyes on the screen, because I’m LOOKING INTO THE CAMERA 🤦♀️
In his book “Unmasking Autism”, Devon Price also talks about how a lot of anxieties which would be irrational in the case of a neurotypical person, actually are very rational in autistic people.
We hear too many of these cases where someone who is autistic is told they are not because the have made eye contact, engaged in a conversation, etc. It's very worrying that some professional therapists have such stereotypical views. Autistic people learn to mask - they know that they are expected to make eye contact or engage in conversation and that it is considered rude not to do so. Indications of autism are much more tied in with past experiences, personal history, broad patterns of behaviour and a person's feelings and it is these which clinicians should investigate. If a person has been diagnosed having that diagnosis questioned can be disconcerting and even upsetting; however to someone searching for a diagnosis who is then denied it or steered down completely the wrong path it can be profoundly damaging. Experiences like this and lack of trust in the competence of clinicians are one reason why some with autism are reluctant to seek professional diagnosis.
Watching this 3 years later 😂 anyway i also had the best therapist ever tell me im not autistic...which is pretty confusing. You have grown a lot and it interesting to watch your journey 😊
It seems so many people end up having assessments with people that have a terrible understanding of autism 💔 I’m so sorry that was your experience, I hope you’re able to get a second opinion from someone more knowledgeable at some point!
People have always treated me like shit because i wont do what they say just because they said it to me. If i don't agree with something i'll ask for a reason why i should do it, and that instantly sets them off
That's very relatable. It took nearly 20 years for me and my psychiatrist to finally get to the point when she would say that my description of anxiety (in an imagined scenario) sounded like an autistic trait. It was only then that I started looking into autism and pursuing official assessment. It still took my psychiatrist almost a year after that to get comfortable with the idea, which is great now, but the anxiety I experience every day is still the main limiting factor in my life. I wish I found out when I was your age.
I am a clinically diagnosed Autist and have GAD. A clinician saying that someone cannot be autistic because they show emotions, have empathy and can maintain eye contact, is like a surgeon saying that a paralympic athlete cannot be an amputee because he has run a 100 metre race. Many autistics can do all these things, and smile and hold apparently normal conversations, it is just that we do most of them through intellect and conscious effort. The effort we exert is the result of anxiety and is the cause of exhaustion. I can and do make eye contact, I do it because I have years of experience in how much eye contact seems to be comfortable for other people, and when it is appropriate to make and break it. I am monitoring it all the time I am in a conversation, along with attempting to decode non-verbal signals, no wonder socialising is exhausting for autistics.
@@DanaAndersen Ahh well, I can do this sort of thing with the written word, but I would just freeze if put in front of a camera. I couldn't do what you have done here. Autism awareness/acceptance/advocacy needs all the eloquence it can get.
The therapist had no right to question a clinical diagnosis. Might be best to complain to someone, if only to let them know how upset it makes you feel, and also so it's less likely to happen again, as this can be very damaging.
Dana, you are an exceptionally smart woman. You also have acquired a heap of wisdom and common sense. It's clear that the therapist's conclusion disturbed you and pushed an old button. I think that was because your younger self would have reacted that way. You will never forget your younger self and what she thinks and feels. But you will teach her what you've learned and she will come to unders tand and will learn to believe in herself. When she does, I believe that your anxieties will decrease.
I’m diagnosed autistic and I give TOO MUCH eye contact…like an awkward amount. We are physically capable of it but we just have to tell ourselves to do it. If she was knowledgable, she’d know that.
I avoid eye contact as much as I can because I don’t know when to end it or where to look afterwards 😂 I have no idea if I do the right amount or too much when I do it, so I mostly just don’t do it!
HAHAHAHA omfg the way I am CRACKING UP at your wording at ~4:53 "I felt like a fraud! I still have times when i speak to some of my autistic friends and I'm just like 'Oh shit! What if I'm like, lying to them?! What if I'm not even autistic and I'm just like some neurotypical DICKHEAD that's like coming to their space and started taking over?!' " OMG I relate to this Imposter Syndrome SO HARD, even THO my diagnosing doctor emphasized all my "severe" results across several tests and that he "didn't think I realized HOW 'autistic' I was" I definitely feel that 'Oh shit! What if I'm like, lying to them?! What if I'm not even autistic and I'm just like some neurotypical DICKHEAD that's like coming to their space and started taking over?!'
Lol. I just watched that other video and while watching that I was repressing the urge to be like 'uh you sure this is all as fine as you say it is? Because I've been where you're at, praising a therapist who had the best intentions but ultimately didn't have the right methods, and should've taken me seriously when I told her I was aut!stic. My anxiety and depression are def influenced if not caused entirely by my aut!sm, and CBT is not actually shown to work for aut!stic people and can actually be harmful' but I guess you came to that conclusion by yourself haha For me this was linked to fawning/masking, so people-pleasing behavior. I didn't want to be ungrateful for a therapist that I thought was a nice person on a personal level, even though the therapy I went through was ultimately not the best.
When counseling therapists go to college they do not do any deep dives into the study of autism. So, unless they do special courses/continuing education hours after they graduate to further their understanding of autism, they are not going to be skilled in seeing and recognizing autism in a lot of people. If a therapist say “you can’t be autistic, you give give eye contact” then they haven’t done the deep dive.
I sought diagnosis at 42, and after a short ADOS interview -and without reviewing my questionnaires, which later came back as affirmative!- she told me, “You’re definitely neurodivergent… but you do not meet ASD criteria according to the DSM-5 … and a bunch of old, white males.” (She and I are both white, btw… but it was nice she had my back about the DSM being behind the times.) Being denied SUCKED, but I’m finally poking around for a second opinion. I felt so ashamed, it has taken me a year to work up the courage to bring the idea into the light again.
I think she sounds like she’s not a BAD therapist, but she is a mediocre therapist, and she’s going to leave a lot of patients misdiagnosed and that’s really disappointing, even if it is more of a reflection on her education than it is on her.
The therapist had no right to say that she didn't think you are autistic when you have a clinical diagnosis. This sounds very hurtful of them. Could you complain?. I mean, it's not her remit to question a diagnosis.
Non-autistic people never realise that autistic people essentially learn to not come across as autistic as a mechanism for fitting into society. I keep eye contact, not because it's natural or even comfortable for me, but because I know it's something that is expected. Autistic people can appear to be non-autistic, but that's only because we opperate social conventions on a more conscious level. This is my best explanation for why many people say I don't look autistic. I take it as a compliment because it shows that I'm fitting in quite well and it makes me feel normal. That is, until I make a social mistake and embarras myself again haha.
Yes, exactly! I might be coming across as a ‘normal’ person, but I’m working very very hard to come across that way! I’m glad you’re able to fit in, and I find most people don’t notice our social mistakes, or if they do don’t remember for long!
So your anxiety is just experience. "Because it has..." send me. It's the same for me. People just get aggressive out of the blue. Of course that would make you a bit nervous after a few decades, right? Right.
![[MV] A leap of faith...ความเชื่อใจครั้งสุดท้าย (From "Petrichor the series")](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/U1piZH2CNXA/mqdefault.jpg)
This eye contact argument is so f*cking absurd when talking via Zoom etc. It’s wrong anyway, but on a video call, eye contact is literally IMPOSSIBLE! When I look at the other person’s eyes on the screen, for them it seems that I’m NOT looking into their eyes, because I’m not looking directly at the camera. And when I look directly at the camera to give them the feeling that I’m looking at their eyes, I cannot see their eyes on the screen, because I’m LOOKING INTO THE CAMERA 🤦♀️
In his book “Unmasking Autism”, Devon Price also talks about how a lot of anxieties which would be irrational in the case of a neurotypical person, actually are very rational in autistic people.
Thanks for this reference! I'll add it to the tsundoku pile/list!!
We hear too many of these cases where someone who is autistic is told they are not because the have made eye contact, engaged in a conversation, etc. It's very worrying that some professional therapists have such stereotypical views. Autistic people learn to mask - they know that they are expected to make eye contact or engage in conversation and that it is considered rude not to do so. Indications of autism are much more tied in with past experiences, personal history, broad patterns of behaviour and a person's feelings and it is these which clinicians should investigate. If a person has been diagnosed having that diagnosis questioned can be disconcerting and even upsetting; however to someone searching for a diagnosis who is then denied it or steered down completely the wrong path it can be profoundly damaging. Experiences like this and lack of trust in the competence of clinicians are one reason why some with autism are reluctant to seek professional diagnosis.
Watching this 3 years later 😂 anyway i also had the best therapist ever tell me im not autistic...which is pretty confusing. You have grown a lot and it interesting to watch your journey 😊
I went for an assessment. I was told I can't be on the spectrum because I want friends and want to be in a relationship.
It seems so many people end up having assessments with people that have a terrible understanding of autism 💔 I’m so sorry that was your experience, I hope you’re able to get a second opinion from someone more knowledgeable at some point!
@@DanaAndersen thank you.
Ouch, yes same, want friends and I'm in a relationship
People have always treated me like shit because i wont do what they say just because they said it to me. If i don't agree with something i'll ask for a reason why i should do it, and that instantly sets them off
That's very relatable. It took nearly 20 years for me and my psychiatrist to finally get to the point when she would say that my description of anxiety (in an imagined scenario) sounded like an autistic trait. It was only then that I started looking into autism and pursuing official assessment. It still took my psychiatrist almost a year after that to get comfortable with the idea, which is great now, but the anxiety I experience every day is still the main limiting factor in my life. I wish I found out when I was your age.
I am a clinically diagnosed Autist and have GAD. A clinician saying that someone cannot be autistic because they show emotions, have empathy and can maintain eye contact, is like a surgeon saying that a paralympic athlete cannot be an amputee because he has run a 100 metre race. Many autistics can do all these things, and smile and hold apparently normal conversations, it is just that we do most of them through intellect and conscious effort. The effort we exert is the result of anxiety and is the cause of exhaustion. I can and do make eye contact, I do it because I have years of experience in how much eye contact seems to be comfortable for other people, and when it is appropriate to make and break it. I am monitoring it all the time I am in a conversation, along with attempting to decode non-verbal signals, no wonder socialising is exhausting for autistics.
This is so fantastically well put, much more eloquent than anything that’s ever come out of my mouth I’m sure! I wish more people understood this!
@@DanaAndersen Ahh well, I can do this sort of thing with the written word, but I would just freeze if put in front of a camera. I couldn't do what you have done here. Autism awareness/acceptance/advocacy needs all the eloquence it can get.
The therapist had no right to question a clinical diagnosis. Might be best to complain to someone, if only to let them know how upset it makes you feel, and also so it's less likely to happen again, as this can be very damaging.
Dana, you are an exceptionally smart woman. You also have acquired a heap of wisdom and common sense. It's clear that the therapist's conclusion disturbed you and pushed an old button. I think that was because your younger self would have reacted that way. You will never forget your younger self and what she thinks and feels. But you will teach her what you've learned and she will come to unders
tand and will learn to believe in herself. When she does, I believe that your anxieties will decrease.
I’m diagnosed autistic and I give TOO MUCH eye contact…like an awkward amount. We are physically capable of it but we just have to tell ourselves to do it. If she was knowledgable, she’d know that.
I avoid eye contact as much as I can because I don’t know when to end it or where to look afterwards 😂 I have no idea if I do the right amount or too much when I do it, so I mostly just don’t do it!
HAHAHAHA omfg the way I am CRACKING UP at your wording at ~4:53
"I felt like a fraud!
I still have times when i speak to some of my autistic friends and I'm just like
'Oh shit! What if I'm like, lying to them?!
What if I'm not even autistic and I'm just like some neurotypical DICKHEAD that's like coming to their space and started taking over?!' "
OMG I relate to this Imposter Syndrome SO HARD, even THO my diagnosing doctor emphasized all my "severe" results across several tests and that he "didn't think I realized HOW 'autistic' I was"
I definitely feel that
'Oh shit! What if I'm like, lying to them?!
What if I'm not even autistic and I'm just like some neurotypical DICKHEAD that's like coming to their space and started taking over?!'
My former therapist told me: "But you don't autistic", only 2 minutes after the fisrt session. Very unprofessional.
Lol. I just watched that other video and while watching that I was repressing the urge to be like 'uh you sure this is all as fine as you say it is? Because I've been where you're at, praising a therapist who had the best intentions but ultimately didn't have the right methods, and should've taken me seriously when I told her I was aut!stic. My anxiety and depression are def influenced if not caused entirely by my aut!sm, and CBT is not actually shown to work for aut!stic people and can actually be harmful' but I guess you came to that conclusion by yourself haha
For me this was linked to fawning/masking, so people-pleasing behavior. I didn't want to be ungrateful for a therapist that I thought was a nice person on a personal level, even though the therapy I went through was ultimately not the best.
When counseling therapists go to college they do not do any deep dives into the study of autism. So, unless they do special courses/continuing education hours after they graduate to further their understanding of autism, they are not going to be skilled in seeing and recognizing autism in a lot of people. If a therapist say “you can’t be autistic, you give give eye contact” then they haven’t done the deep dive.
I sought diagnosis at 42, and after a short ADOS interview -and without reviewing my questionnaires, which later came back as affirmative!- she told me, “You’re definitely neurodivergent… but you do not meet ASD criteria according to the DSM-5 … and a bunch of old, white males.” (She and I are both white, btw… but it was nice she had my back about the DSM being behind the times.)
Being denied SUCKED, but I’m finally poking around for a second opinion. I felt so ashamed, it has taken me a year to work up the courage to bring the idea into the light again.
I think she sounds like she’s not a BAD therapist, but she is a mediocre therapist, and she’s going to leave a lot of patients misdiagnosed and that’s really disappointing, even if it is more of a reflection on her education than it is on her.
The therapist had no right to say that she didn't think you are autistic when you have a clinical diagnosis. This sounds very hurtful of them. Could you complain?. I mean, it's not her remit to question a diagnosis.
Non-autistic people never realise that autistic people essentially learn to not come across as autistic as a mechanism for fitting into society.
I keep eye contact, not because it's natural or even comfortable for me, but because I know it's something that is expected.
Autistic people can appear to be non-autistic, but that's only because we opperate social conventions on a more conscious level.
This is my best explanation for why many people say I don't look autistic. I take it as a compliment because it shows that I'm fitting in quite well and it makes me feel normal. That is, until I make a social mistake and embarras myself again haha.
Yes, exactly! I might be coming across as a ‘normal’ person, but I’m working very very hard to come across that way!
I’m glad you’re able to fit in, and I find most people don’t notice our social mistakes, or if they do don’t remember for long!
@@DanaAndersen absolutely. This is precisely why I find social interactions so exhausting, I feel like I’m paying attention to everything.
So your anxiety is just experience. "Because it has..." send me. It's the same for me. People just get aggressive out of the blue. Of course that would make you a bit nervous after a few decades, right? Right.
Right! I’m so glad it’s not just me feeling/thinking that way!
Yeah definitely complain.
🧡
❤
Have you asked why she has this opinion? Bc complex trauma can cause neuro-divurgencies and she might suspect that in your life?
Her main point was that I ‘make eye contact’, despite having only ever met me via video chat
Fake, Fake, Fake, Fake, Fake,!!!!!!!