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Resurrecting an Indycar V6 turbo Buick Stage II engine | fullBOOST
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 14 ส.ค. 2024
- Built for the AJ Foyt Indy Racing Team circa 1984, this Buick Stage II V6 ‘stock block’ turbo engine is now back up and running in an Australian Holden Torana Sport Sedan racer. Tyrone Smith from Octane Alley gives us some background on this unique engine and some of the improvements they have made with current day technology.
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#fullboost #indycar #v6turbo #dynotuning #motec
Jesus, you can tell this blokes passionate about what he does. Good on him 👍
No kidding ask him one question and he'll take over from there to bad more people aren't as passionate about their jobs
If this way my day job I would be passionate about it too. More people would be passionate about there job if they were doing what they loved. But lets be honest... how common is that?
Gone are the days when Buick turbo V6s could be heard growling around the 2.5 mile Indianapolis oval at dizzying (230+mph) qualifying speeds. These were the last of the legitimate stock block contenders in a field dominated by exotica. Those lucky enough to own such an iconic piece of race history, and keep it running, are in rarefied air indeed. Thanks for sharing this video. I'm glad to see this fantastic example is in conscientious, capable hands.
They had a sound all their own. I miss them
@gusmc01 watch some of my vids. I used the late model 3800 but at 1000hp they sound the same 😀
I was a Machinist at Brayton Engineering in Coldwater, Michigan during the 1992 Indycar season. I was having the time of my life working on the Buick Indy V-6 program! My Bridgeport was on the other side of the Dyno Room wall! The RPM and Horsepower numbers were incredible for a 209 CID "Stock Block" race engine. I am thankful to have known and worked for Scott and Lee Brayton and also for the guys that I worked with back in those days! The Buick did have a sound of it's own and I was fortunate enough to be able to hear it on the Dyno and on the track at 9200 RPMS. I was a very lucky young man.
A great video. A rare chance to hear from an Engine Calibrator rather than just a tuner.
OEM calibrators are chalk and cheese compared to most tunas. It is a proper engineers job, not one for a year 10 dropout.
I built Buick V6 Indy motors from the beginning of the project @ Mclaren in Michigan to the end where I worked @ Brayton engineering in Michigan,at Brayton we developed a 7 butterfly intake system for that engine that made it much more drivable. I loved that motor!!!
this bloke knows what he's talking about. Christ. That's the guy you want to trust your engine to.
yeah wish i knew this much hes awesome
I could only watch the first two minutes, but he does NOT know what he's talking about when it comes to the Stage II Buick V6
Maybe watch the entire video then you can provide more information.
@@fullboost I agree fully :)
@@fullboost I could. But what's really bad is that I'm not a stage expert.
I am a Buick V6 expert and like I mentioned earlier, I could only last 2:00 before I had to give up on your video.
Now I realize you make your money not on 'clicks' but 'minutes watched', so I fully understand why you want the videos as long as possible... And the Buick V6 does have place in history as a badass engine that done cool stuff....
...but if you get bored do a google search for he words ''earlbrown'' and ''grand national'''..
...or ''earlbrown'' and ''oil pump mods''....
...or any variation of my name and anything having to with a Buick V6
cheers!
Cleanest boost curve ive ever seen
I used to own a 4.5 liter, twin turbo Stage 2 in a Grand National.
7.88 @ 173 quarter mile.
Lies
I've worked on one of the Busch GN versions of these engines, and found the part of the vid where mentions the issues with the gear drive telling.. Whilst opening it up for a refresh I noticed the gear drive and thought it to be odd that an endurance pushrod engine would be so equipped, as most have a Jesel belt drive for numerous reasons ( valvetrain harmonics absorbtion being a BIG reason.).
Perplexed I asked My mentor and He told Me that nothing else would live with the extreme harmonics the engine generated @ 8,500 rpm's.. Not surprising that this builder found theirs damaged.
Splendid trip down memory lane, thanks for sharing it!
Sounds like the engine needs a torsional damper on the cam.
Buddy Ingersoll was whooping that ass in the early 80s with his pro stock car. They actually kicked him out. Bob Glidden and Warren Johnson were crying about it.
Woah! Amazing! What an insight! And to think this thing is 30+ years out of date. Incredible! Love this bloke’s passion and understanding and willingness to share his knowledge. But, what I love most about this is the fact that the owner, whoever he/she is has been prepared to spend the huge coin to not only restore this engine but to continue to use it as was always intended! As a race engine. And to top it all off, in an LC Torana! Kudos to you man!
That man is extremely talented and has the knowledge to back his talent, Full Boost you nailed with this video
I've wanted to see a good exposé on these legendary engines. Been searching for a while and this popped up. So great. Thank you.
Very knowledgeable dude. Props Fullboost.
I am SO GRATEFUL somebody finally came out with a video on this engine. Eddie Cheever still holds the Indy track record for fastest race lap using this motor. Later taken over by Menard, it would later kill Scott Brayton during qualifying.
My favorite Indy engine ever
Imagine this thing pultting down single peggers in a maccas car park in a commodore.
matt standage I’m trying to find one to swap in my VP as we speak
I kinda wanna stick one in my vn now 😂 but with a 4/71 On top of it 👌 but I suspect they're very expensive :( he did say 3k for a block at least, blown small block chev might be cheaper lol
Hahaaaaaa mate you made my night !!!
@@5lcalais1 people have gotten 700hp on bottom end 3800s here in the states. dont worry.
Single leggers? Phuck no brah, we got shit tons of chemiweld in the shed, we'll lock her good & pick up the barely legal girlfriends from skool whilst cutting sick!
Also; i built a 1993 Aquamarine color VR 3.8lt block with a nice Trust T67 turbo, 4lt stroker and more money, parts and lack of sense in 2007/08; that thing knocked out a lazy 603rwhp, and it didn't give me any issues at all for the 4 years i kept it (bar the aircon condenser core failing); the 3800's are just a great little motor (and that's coning from a diehard Ford bloke).
Buick never put the Stage 2 V6 into any passenger car. They were race only motors. They were used in Indy car, GTP racing and drag racing. I am from Flint. I know the people involved in Buick's engine program back in the day. Most of them are now in their 80's. There was never a factory twin turbo GN. There was an Indy pace car with twin turbo built with the help of Gale Banks. We built a Regal drag car with a GTP engine in it back in the 90's. The engine came from Scott Brayton racing. The "manual" for the motor was a loose leaf notebook that was written with a typewriter and had had written note by Buick engineers.
Cool memories. I went to college in Flint during the heyday of the Buick V6. Toured the assembly plant, and the guide said they were producing 4000 V6's per day. Then Six Flags built an amusement park in Flint, where they had a giant walk-through Buick V6. The amusement park failed miserably, but I did appreciate the city's enthusiasm for the engine.
Wow, what a knowledgeable and passionate bloke, and a great story in that engine!
Fantastic Video, awesome work Fullboost
Please do a follow up video once they have the car doing some testing!!!
Lots of people commented on how much they liked the history side. If you go back to 1950/51, Buick made a 215 all aluminum V8 that was a true hemi with a rocker system to the intake side of the piston and another to the exhaust side. The engine was supercharged and dual fuel gas/alcohol and made about 300 hp. BTW Ford still had a flathead back then. The engine was complicated and took up a lot of real estate. Buick quite literally cut the cylinder head in half and the result was their nailhead engine family which took very little room as the valve train was perpendicular to the ground and that made the engine less wide. This was also the Achilles heal that it was confined to very small valves and awkward port design. The production 215 engine was more conventional along the lines of the SBC and was the predecessor to all Buick V6 and V8 small blocks up to 1986. The Buick Big Block Family is the same type of architecture but scaled for bigger bore and platform. Like mentioned, the gas crunch of the 70's found everyone scrambling, Buick first had their V6 in the 1960's when they had the 215-300-340 engines and like the 215 they sold the tooling. The V6 went to Jeep (Dauntless 225). Buick was able to buy back the V6 tooling by 1975 and the primary change was an increase to 231 CID. The first couple years it remained an odd-fire engine and even used a modified V8 distributor. Buick provided the Indy pace cars in 1975 and 1976. A 455 engine was used in `75 and a twin turbo V6 in `76. At speed, the V6 accelerated at twice the rate as the 455 car. This triggered the Buick Turbos. In 1978 Buick offered the Regal and LeSabre with turbo V6 now in even-fire configuration. The 4bbl turbo V6 rivaled the 350 cid of the Corvette in 1978.
I love that the guy knows the history behind it. Fantastic video, love this kind of content
Actually he doesn't.
@@earlbrown to be honest I would love to know. If you have more accurate info, would be greatly appreciated. thanks
@@CorndogBrownie I only made it to the 2:00 mark before I had to turn it off.
In that short amount of time, he was wrong about that engine being a special order item on street cars for homogenization rules.... They were NEVER put on the street EVER. They were sold out of the Buick Motorsports racing catalog for racing use only. Not to mention, Indy, NASCAR, and private drag racing teams have zero rules saying an engine has to be street based.
The other thing he messed up was the blocks were all cast iron. They were not. When they were available, you could get them in iron or aluminum.
I have no idea what else they got wrong, after 2:00 as I turned off the video.
@@earlbrown oh ffs dude, you read WAY too hard into this. he wasnt talking about the stage ii block being iron only. he was talking about when they released it after they bought the designs back from amc.
@@frigglebiscuit7484 AMC had nothing to do with Stage racing blocks. NOTHING at all.
Granted the tooling and rights for Buick stuff bounced around for a while to a few different places (just as Land Rover)....
....but stage shit was stage shit. It was straight up GM racing only. AND in both iron and aluminum.
...and I didn't read ''too hard'' into anything. I started watching a video that interested me and came across a cash grab that was put on the internet to generate clicks, likes, and ''watched minutes' that makes money for the uploader.
I'm not going to apologize for knowing more about Buick's than the kiwi pretending that's he's and expert on 80's American oddball stuff (that actually worked).
Really enjoyed this, thanks for taking the time to put this experience together. It’s a massive deal for a Petrol Head, cheers 🍻
That old 3800 was a great engine I owned 3 of them and they all went over 300000 miles with just a little love. Just keep up on regular maintenance
Charles Lewer like a renaissance engine? Hohh... 😂
More videos like this please boys. Love the tech side of it all
So much knowledge and information in one episode, Thankyou for an amazing video. I genuinely enjoyed this
What an fantastic bloke to have on your engine side ...Awwwsum info thank you !! What an era
wow helpful. I'm building an 84 GN motor and plan on the same kind of hp levels. these videos really do help me focus, thank you.
Who the hell is this guy and why haven't I heard about him before? Wow what an absolute guru ... on everything! Great video, thanks for taking the time to shoot it, edit and upload and thanks to Tyrone for sharing some of his knowledge
Really switched on dude, works on power train calibration for Ford Product Development as well as private stuff.
What a treat to listen to someone who deeply understands what he is talking about.
Really enjoy seeing more of these super-unique Sport Sedans! Tyrone is also a wealth of knowledge & a great attitude to be happy to share it too :)
Notebook open. Pencil in hand. Notes taken. Thanks, Professor!
The Buick V6 has to be one of the greatest engines ever built, second only perhaps to the SBC.
slant 6 was good too
@@man.i.literally.failed6772 Had a '64 Dart and a '72 Dart, both with slant 6. Gutless motors, but I suppose they didn't blow up on me, so there's that, I guess.
The Buick V6 was horrible when it started out in the early 60's, but started improving bit by bit in 1977 when GM made it even-fire. 1984 it got port EFI. 1988 they made the conrods on-center with the bores and added a balance shaft. 1995 the deck height was lowered and valve sizes increased, and it became the Series II.
@@andyharman3022 Not a thing wrong with the odd-fire engine. Millions of 60's & 70's Jeeps and Buicks testify to that. Got one in my old Commando that's been merrily chugging along for 54 years.
The precision of the boost control is amazing.
High wastegate flow capacity is what allows that.
Awesome feature. Intelligent fellow as well. The modern series 1, 2, and 3 production counterparts of this engine are underrated. They're like little baby LS engines. The front timing cover is like a mopar. The rear main seal is like an LS. The oil pump is like an LS. The rockers are like an LS. Forget monster 700+ hp figures. An engine like this with a G40-900 turbo in the 500-600hp range would be great long-lived fun.
A friend had a SS/DX with an N/A 277 inch Stage II Buick. Made near 700 HP @8800 when it ran. Broke a lot of valve train parts. Bottom end never had an issue. Car weighed 2950. Quickest ET was low 9’s 1/4 mi. best MPH was 139.24 1/4 mi.
Our shop car ran a 7.75 with that engine.
inches of manifold pressure is an aircraft thing, measures absolute pressure. Automotive 'boost pressure' just measures pressure above atmospheric, and atmospheric pressure varies with altitude. The crazy Unlimited Air racers run upwards of 140 inches, that's over 55psi boost, on a 27L engine.
inches of Mercury is just another unit of pressure. 29.92 in Hg = 14.7 psi. You can measure absolute pressure in psi, in Hg, bars, kPa, or whatever pressure unit you can think of.
This guy knows what he is talking about, pure passion in his voice! Love it
This is a great interview
Turbo 6 Buick engines are one of the best sounding engines of all time. T/A Performance still makes a billet aluminum block for them and Al heads.
Can we hear from this bloke every time he sneezes? What a legend.
He even calls individual coils "coils," not "coil packs." I think I'm in love.
Pretty safe to say this guy knows his shit. I aspire to be one of these people that can tell you where the raw material of an engine block is from, just by looking at a few dots on the casting.
So good, I learned so much from that.
Love the knowledge being shared so well.
Great work to all involved
🤜🏼🤛🏼🇦🇺🍀🍀🍀😎
Awesome video!
Good to hear aftermarket ECUs have full fuel modeling these days. That is one of the main reasons I love the OEM Delco units as they had all that from the late 80s. Btw if you can't tell I love me a good Buick 6!
But do you love the Buick as much as your GF 😉
@@miknanita Well I do like to give it to you as much as I do to my Buicks ;)
Great video from a true expert. A nice history lesson too.
Everytime I see that intake I want one for both of mine just to cut a whole on the hood 😂
He knows his shit. Great motor, but I now know more than I needed.
i remember these buick v6 turbo engines in the CART racing series they were strong runners
I know exactly what Tyrone meant when he said Mitsubishi Starion technology. The 4G63 Sirius.
No Intercooler (though I believe one was added later , Throttle Body Injection ( with an Anemic two injectors) and a computer that couldn't control detonation.
Awesome video. Very informative, we definitely need to see this in the car and on track. Should be pretty amazing.
Tyrone is expert tech and an ex racer. Kudos to the interviewer who let him run with it. Totally enjoyed this and learnt some too. thanks
Cool to see RWD 3800 four door "Burnout machine's" I think we only got that combo in the Camaro/ Firebird.
Actually these engines were FWD 3.8s (not the same as series two 3800s)
Literally nothing the same between the two engines. Bell housing, orientation, etc....
And Buicks, Olds, Pontiac Grand Ams. The 80s had them in lots of things
@@earlbrown 2:44
I know a guy that was a teacher at a tech school who built and took care of a couple of Grand Nationals one being a GNX. He told me he ordered a set of wheels but before doing so he wanted to know exactly how wide and what offset he could go and that he had spoken to a guy in Australia that had an immense amount of knowledge about them. He knew the guy was for real when he asked him which caliper option he had as there had been 2 different ones with the only difference being how they were machined. Anyway my point is I wonder if this is the guy because of how deep his knowledge of Buick’s goes and he’s an Australian.
What a fantastic build, thanks for sharing would love to see the thing in action one day
Did anyone else feel like this video was a modern day video version of zoom magazine?
great job guys!!
So very interesting this episode:-) :-) I took a real step back in time and a leap forward in adaptation knowledge :-) :-) :-)
Impressive. Lots of info, and logic for the decisions. I'll have to watch it a few times just to take it all in. Very nice work on both the engine, and the video.
55 inches of mercury is about 27 pounds per square inch for you youngsters
Wow what an amazing video!
Great little interview!
Fantastic 👍🏿👍🏿🇬🇧🇬🇧
So much info. Terrific post on how advanced buick racing was for its day
the buick 3.8 has a reputation of being DURABLE AS HELL...... making good hp, and lots of torque..... yet getting 32 to 35MPG pulling a full sized car (boat) around
my dads 3.8 has 270,000 miles on it.... and runs like brand new
a few 3.8s have over a million miles on them..... and still going strong
as you can tell.... i love the 3.8
its still one of the best all around V6 engines used in GM cars..... newer engines make ONLY SLIGHTLY more power, yet have worse MPG
the 3.8 lasted from 1955 till 2010...... same block, just with a few updates (balance shaft being the biggest)
There is zero chance you are getting 35 mpg out of a Buick 3.8. 25 all highway on a GOOD day.
@@1439of2000 9 to 10 gallalons of gas to go 320 miles.to billings
Given its montana.... zero stopping, zero traffic to pass, and mostly flat land
97 buick lesaber
My LeSabre would do 30mpg year after year. Sold it last year, should've kept it.
Commodore owners now frantically checking Ebay for ex Indy engines.
Great video guys and very knowledgeable engine builder/tuner.
that is impressive you guys know your stuff wow!!!!!!!!!
Had a 79 Olds Cutlass Salon with the 3.8 2 barrel rochester V6... a gutless tank of an engine.. wouldnt rev for shit, ate fuel like a big block, made 100hp but would not be killed. We beat the fuck out of that car. Somehow, one night on a back road in SD i was clocked at 140mph by a trooper... I was amazed when he showed me the radar read out. I had it pinned for a good 4 miles
You didn't do 140 mph in a beater '79 Olds Cutlass with 100 HP. I think the state trooper's radar gun was way out of calibration, or was reading out in kilometers per hour.
Stage motor for the win!!!!!!
Great vid. This guy knows his stuff 👌
Love the history lessons from this man and the Buick motors and racing facts
Wow what great video full of tech information
Love the tech talk! Hello from the US friends.
I'm not an expert on speed engines like this, but the description of the whole thing sound awesome and complete. I just built a scale model by monogram in 1/24 that by the way, I imported from Down Under to Mexico, and I could dimension how small this engine's block is, along with an impressive turbo system. I wandered around youtube looking for this kind of video and finally, I got it. Thank you for the great video.
So interesting!! Thanks Fullboost!. 👌
Fuck me this guy knows his shit. So much information to take in Awesome
Awesome interview. Would have loved a clip of the car in action.
Yes we will endeavour to do an update video at a later date. Cheers
good video , good to see some high power v6's
These were notorious for blowing up at Indy! Super fast and super powerful but you never knew when they were going to let go.
That was freaking awesome!
I had a 1986 oldsmobile cutlass Supreme and it had the buick 231 V6 carburated I use to push it to 6700 hundred RPM and float the valves she always held together sounded like a rattle box once it started eating sensors I replaced it with a 307 olds V8 cuz I'm a oldsmobile man and puritan and believe in only oldsmobile power in a oldsmobile just wanted to share my experience on the 3.8 buick good times good times peace and much respect to you all Jason also always had to leave a 1/2 hour early because she was so underpowered LOL 😆 always gave her full throttle till up to the speed limit 👍😀
own the MOMO GTP of Gianpiero Moretti . has the Buick Indycar V6 w/ the Kinsler injection.
just installed a new Halltech ECU. cannot get it to run.
would like to speak with Tyrone.
Very cool motor. super impressive numbers as well
wish all tuners were like him !!!!
I had an on center stage two in my Buick T Type. I was amazed how big the intake ports were on the heads. I ended up getting rid of it because it’s just too hard to find certain parts for them.
That's pretty cool.....u must be pissed off knowing the engine is expensive
this video is fucking awesome. i could listen to him talk all day about this kinda shit!
There was a guy here in NY that ran a Buick V6 in dirt modifieds against big blocks. Search Ed Haenelt V6 on TH-cam.
back then it was the CART racing series all the top teams ran buick engines i know your going to make big power
No. CART teams did not run Buick engines after about 1987. CART did not give stockblock turbos a 10" Hg manifold pressure advantage, so they weren't competitive. Stockblocks were only competitive at Indy, which was sanctioned by USAC, where they had a 50 cubic inch displacement advantage, and the 10" Hg manifold pressure advantage.
I love those grand nationals
One of the old greybeards I had as a mentor used to say RPM is the only substitute for Cubic inches (mm³).
Well that was indeed indeed Octane Allley as in Grand Tour's Conversation Street
Buicks were waaay ahead of their time!! Long live the 3800!!!
Its a 3300 😊👍
@@fullboost my brother had a car with a 3300, he towed a lot with it and sold it with 246,000 miles on it and it ran perfect!!
This was beautiful
And I have a new 4" bore and a3.8" bore block and stage 2 heads yep are very difficult to locate in Australia
Buick made some amazing engines in the past...
could listen to this man talk forever
GM never offered a stage II in a production car for the public.
A little goof, but not too bad. He might be thinking of the Stage 2 option in the late '60s/early '70s. Only a few were actually sold as Stage 2s, most of the parts (heads/intake/exhaust/cam) were sold by dealers to be added to regular or Stage 1 455s.
They where available from the GM parts catalog though.
T Sci is right
Asc would of really out did themselves if they dumped this in the Gnx
Buick Stage 2 V6 turbo is 🔥🔥🔥
This dude knows his shit....
Are there any videos of this torana in action on track?
Very nice boost curve
Very detailed video awesome
interesting, great video
I wish I could have had one of those in my old Buick