Elder Jeffrey R. Holland on Chastity and Gender (LGBTQ)
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 29 พ.ย. 2024
- "I think we have talked altogether too much about gender and altogether too little about chastity. The issue is chastity. The issue is not gender." Although the topic at hand is certainly more complex, Elder Jeffrey R. Holland's remarks on chastity and gender (LGBTQ) might be a helpful starting point for addressing sensitive issues pertaining to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and its doctrine. What are your thoughts on his counsel?
Elder Holland was answering a question asked during a worldwide Face 2 Face event with LDS young adults. The full 2016 event can be found here www.churchofje...
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I am not LDS but I appreciated listening to your talk about chastity vs gender and sexual preference. Chastity is a long forgotten subject in this day and age but I am proud you are teaching it to your young people. Thank you!
Don’t let him pull the wool over your eyes. The church is still homophobic. It doesn’t matter if a gay member followed the exact same moral track as a straight member in their dating/spousal selection (e.g no premarital sex, monogamy, etc.), they would still be excommunicated if they got married. Sounds like it’s still about “gender” then, wouldn’t you say? The church is entitled to their doctrine, but Holland needs to have the balls to call it was it is instead of hedging up semantically weak and misleading narratives.
@tllc203 Thank you. Yes chastity is very important in the church more so than other Do's or don'ts. It is nice to be supported in this gospel law. We have been advised to get closer to God because of the difficult coming times, so we can be led by the holy spirit and not fear. I hope that you will enjoy other talks by our church leaders and guidance that we get twice a year at conference. Much love 🖖✌️
@@BarberLoriHi do want me to refer you to the missionaries who would teach you more about the gospel?
Holland talks altogether too much about chastity (aka zero orgasms) and altogether too little about morality, which involves harm to others. When new life is NOT involved -- as in LGBTQ relations, menopause, vasectomy, masturbation or marriage partners who use contraception -- there is no moral argument left to debate. There's only the intrinsic evil of pleasure itself. How very Calvinist ... or is that Hollandist? There is no "law of chastity." The whole concept is stupid.
@@unclejoesghost488 I am not LDS but I disagree with you. Chastity means using our sexual activities in accordance with God’s plan for creation. The place for sexual pleasure is in marriage, to bind the couple together and possibly result in children. We honor God by being chaste. It is a kind of dying to ourselves in order to follow Christ. At Paul says if we cannot control ourselves it is better to marry. But not everyone is called to marriage. Nevertheless, chastity is using sex only according to God’s plan.
Of course we are also called to love each other and do good to others.
As a lesbian & LDS I agree with Elder Holland. We should focus on the Lord’s commandments. It is not easy and takes faith & courage. However, within time we learn to love God more than our personal desires.
I suspect my 8 yr old son is gay. I wrestle with what to tell him.
I would pray about it and validate his feelings with love not shame. Also letting him know how God’s way is best for us.
@@LegacyProWindowCleaningtrust in the Lords plan for him. We all have our exodus to cross pray for God to help you be the parent he needs you to be. ❤ Listen to the Lord he’s got you. Even asking here is evidence that you care deeply for your son. May he see your efforts and be receptive towards your wisdom.
@@LegacyProWindowCleaningLove him exactly as he is. Listen to him, learn from him, understand him. Love always wins. Any group/person/Being who interferes with our natural desires to love each other is cruel and full of darkness. Telling your son that he is anything other than perfect and whole just the way he is will put darkness in his heart and lead to a life full of pain. Christ taught love. Simply love. There is no sin in love.
I mad mad respect for you sister…sincerely…I salute you 🫡
I am Bi and LDS and this man speaks truth and simplicity. Chastity is always important, even if it may be more difficult to keep than others. The Lords commandments will never change.
Sending love and hugs my precious LDS friend ❤️🌟🙏
I love you for your integrity. May God bless you!
My attraction is not a struggle. The struggle is dealing with the hatred, oppression & discrimination from Mormons,Protestants& Catholics. LDS CHURCH doesn’t practice the love of the Creator, it’s a cruel scam!! Asking chastity for life, demanding people avoid love for life is insanely cruel! Chastity is something that he conveniently isn’t practicing. Jeffery conveniently doesn’t practice chastity. Neither did Joseph, in fact he did the exact opposite having sex with several people, as did the following 5 presidents and their apostles. Jeffrey and the church are rejecting the top command of the Creator and his sum of all commands. If the lords commands never change, why did the 15 declare that God said that the children of Gay parents can’t have the preisthood or enter the temple but changed that when social pressure came and many people started resigning from the church? Why did they change the command and doctrine that black people couldn’t have the preisthood? Or the command against interracial marriage? It’s not divine, it’s elitist cruelty.
@@timmiestabrnak Lol, how is Elder Holland not practicing chastity? We absolutely do practice the love of our creator.
clearly you don't understand chastity@@timmiestabrnak
I am a single woman who is 58 and would absolutely love to be married to a wonderful, honest, good man who loves God and Jesus, who will treat me well, someone whom I love and who loves me. However, I have been divorced for 14 years now and I’ve been raising children during that whole time and have not found a good single man. I have kept the Law of Chastity during the 14 years because I love God and Jesus more than I love sinning against them! It’s not easy keeping the Law of Chastity, but so worth it!!! And you know at my age, it has nothing to do with trying to avoid a pregnancy! I keep the Law of Chastity because I love the Savior, who gave his life that I might be saved. Can’t I do this for Him?
Yes, I can!
Yes, I do this to show my devotion to Him, and I do know I’ve been blessed by keeping the Law of Chastity. Just one important blessing is that I’m a good example to my three teens. 😊
#cancelthemormoncult
I have been divorced since 1995, unable to find a good man to marry. I haven't even dated. Absolutely 💯% chastity and celebate. I would love to get married to a good man, but at 71, I've given up on that ever happening.
You should find yourself a nice chaste, gay man to re-marry. Help him follow the law of chastity, and get yourself a companion, it’s a win-win.
So well said @debra
I think this comment shows you don’t understand what gay people are actually asking for. You desire a husband. You would love to get married. And if you found a man you would marry him.
For gay men, you expect something different. They cannot desire a husband (which you do) and if they meet someone who is a good man who loves them and they love them in return, they are not allowed to marry them but will probably have to completely stop the relationship - probably can’t even be friends anymore because it’s too complicated.
I would say, your lack of understanding in how your situation is vastly different from a gay man who is forced into painful celibacy even when he finds a suitable partner, is cruel.
The best response I’ve heard. It simplifies what the world would rather complicate. Brother Holland thank you for such clarity spoken with love and boldness.
Nothing about this was loving nor bold.
@@timmiestabrnakno you troll lol
It was a clear, concise, charitable discourse on the issue, and I greatly appreciated it.
#cancelthemormoncult
#cancelthemormoncult
I taught this to my Institute class 10 years ago. He has been emphazing this for ages.
#cancelthemormoncult
That’s a shame.
good for you and your students. this is a better focus
@@Applest2oApples Agreed. Shame is never a healthy or sustainable motivator for change. Yet, that’s how the church operates. 🤦🏻♀️
So true! Love you Elder Holland! Praying for your speedy recovery!!!
Yes. We all deserve to enjoy feeling the Spirit of God each day. Living the Law of Chastity is worth it.
Thank you, Elder Holland, for these wise and uplifting words. I have friends who never married and are way down their 50's. They have kept the law of chastity for decades. It has been hard , very hard. It requires sacrifice, and commitment, resisting the world enticements. Yes, I fully agree. It is not about gender , it is about chastity.
YES! No one even mentions chastity anymore. It is God's law and a simple concept to understand. Praises for Brother Holland's simple, frank, and honest words.
Chastity is underrated
Chastity is better than scripture mastery
The Holy Spirit's Favorite Snack is CHASTITY
Jeff isn’t practicing chastity. Are you? My attraction is not a struggle. The struggle is dealing with the hatred, oppression & discrimination from Mormons,Protestants& Catholics. LDS CHURCH doesn’t practice the love of the Creator, it’s a cruel scam!! Asking chastity for life, demanding people avoid love for life is insanely cruel! Chastity is something that he conveniently isn’t practicing. Jeffery conveniently doesn’t practice chastity. Neither did Joseph, in fact he did the exact opposite having sex with several people, as did the following 5 presidents and their apostles. Jeffrey and the church are rejecting the top command of the Creator and his sum of all commands. If the lords commands never change, why did the 15 declare that God said that the children of Gay parents can’t have the preisthood or enter the temple but changed that when social pressure came and many people started resigning from the church? Why did they change the command and doctrine that black people couldn’t have the preisthood? Or the command against interracial marriage? It’s not divine, it’s elitist cruelty.
In the near future people will accept and recognize the same sex marriage is normal.
Just like giving Priesthood to black people.
The Christian God is a pimp. Controlling when and with whom members can have sex… masterbation is a sin, oral is a sin, kink is a sin, having pleasurable sex is a sin. PIMP! How many Mormon men can actually practice what they preach and abstain from sex? Or have sex with someone they’re not physically attracted to? Being gay is just as natural as being straight. But, Christians will never agree to that because they’re too afraid of being wrong. Christians are literally terrified of living due to a debilitating fear of going to hell. And that fear is engraved in them from birth. It’s not faith, it’s fear!
Holland nailed it. Said it perfectly. Then kept talking in order to be sensitive. Too sensitive in my mind. The gospel cannot live on eggshells. It makes room for messy confusion. It’s plain and simple. It’s an issue of chastity. Period.
All of us struggle by choosing not to do things that entice us. Things we want to do. And the more we overcome these enticings, the stronger we become. “I will make weak things become strong.” Don’t give up. Love God. Then love yourself so that you might properly love others.
Maybe I am just not sensitive or empathetic enough, I’m just feeling so overwhelmed in this time of war against the family.
That's fair, and I do agree. It is very simple. However, as someone who has struggled personally with feelings of same sex attraction my whole life and because of it kinda got stuck in a toxic echochamber for a time, there is a necessity to be more sensitive to reach those stuck and lost. I have since realized that it is about chastity, and I devote myself to the Lord and believe His plan for me will make me happier than anything I could ever dream, and through Him I will reach my divine potential which is what I really want and I have come to understand. Sadly, as I have made this realization my older sister has started going down the same path, getting confused in labels and beginning to harbor feelings of hatred towards the church and its standards. When you are stuck like that you cannot be reached by the plain and simple truths. There is too much denial and refusal to even listen. There is too much emotion and not enough logical thinking, and so trying to reach them with the truth is seemingly impossible. And it sucks. I am not saying the gospel should live on eggshells. God is the same today, yesterday and forever. We stand firm in our beliefs and the knowledge that has been revealed to us. I also am not saying I have a great answer for how to handle this to be honest. I'm just saying I understand why Elder Holland was taking that approach, not to diminish truth or to soften the blow persay, but to try to penetrate the walls of defense so many are trying to keep up to not allow the Spirit in. Sorry, I dunno if this made any sense or not. Apologies if not.
Also I'm sorry you are feeling overwhelmed. You are not alone, but it is hard. I pray for you and all of us that we will be given the strength we need in the tumultuous time.
And understand I'm not saying you need to be more empathetic or sensitive, as I don't think it's really necessary, but I was just wanting to try to explain why others might be trying to do that in a way. If that makes sense. Just maybe give you a different understanding is all. Thanks! God bless!
@averiebrown3652 thank you for your explanation and sharing your experiences ❤️
he's wolf ;in sheep clothing
I've always thought Chastity was the real issue, not which gender attracts you. I appreciate Elder Holland always gets to the heart of a matter with plain speech. Whether individuals met others with compassion and respect is up to them. Everyone cannot avoid prejudice or judgmental behavior. But the Church is teaching what is most important. Chastity is a requirement that Heavenly Father has asked of us. Treat everyone as Jesus would. You can not go wrong doing as He does.
#cancelthemormoncult
Straight people can experience a satisfying sexual relationship within the bounds of chastity. Gay people can not. Thus the issue is not about chastity, it’s about why most people can inherently be chaste if they choose, and why a minority of people can not be.
@@tannersuman an excellent argument as to why God doesn’t exist.
@@Applest2oApples and a great argument as to why He does. :)
If you keep the law of chastity as Elder Holland teaches, then you cannot break it by engaging in homosexuality. The law of chastity forbids or outlaws samesex relations and acts........
Absolutely fantastic! Very well said, Elder Holland.
Hear hear! Perfectly said, love Elder Hollands open, frank manner.
#cancelthemormoncult
Spot on. Thank you Elder Holland. ❤
My love for Elder Holland has no bounds ❤ I really needed to hear this
Hearing an apostle of Jesus Christ explaining anything is so clear, so logical, so loving, and so true.
You are gullible. He makes no sense.
How could he be an apostle when he disagrees with the Apostle Paul in his letter to the Roman's, chapter 1:24-27 and Jesus in Matthew 19:4-6? Rightly did Paul warn Timothy For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables
II Timothy 4:3-4.
He doesn't have to quote it to disagree with the scripture. Did you read the verses? Romans says "Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due. And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting" and Matthew "And He (Jesus) answered and said to them, “Have you not read that He who made them at the beginning ‘made them male and female,’ and said, ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’? So then, they are no longer two but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let not man separate.”
@@clayrush1413 I’m puzzled about how you use Paul’s condemnation of homosexuality to question Elder Holland’s apostolic calling.
In 1829 the resurrected apostle Peter, James, and the translated John were sent to the earth and restored the Melchizedek Priesthood to Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery. Later after the organization of His restored Church he called twelve apostles. As Paul taught, the Church of Jesus Christ is built upon a foundation of apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ being the chief cornerstone. The authority restored by Peter, James, and John is active in the earth today within The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. It is this priesthood authority, restored to the earth in our day, that separates the Lord’s Church from man-made religions operating without continuous revelation. Jesus taught you can tell a true prophet from a false prophet by their fruits. If you took the time to read with an unbiased mind the various sermons of Jeffrey R. Holland you would see the fruits he offers. Every message he’s ever taught is centered in Jesus Christ and His restored gospel. If you truly believe the Bible you will also believe The Book of Mormon. I invite you to get a copy and prayerfully read it. If you do you will gain a testimony of its truthfulness.
As members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, we don’t argue over the scriptures or religious beliefs. We teach correct principles and bear testimony as to their truthfulness. I’ve received an answer to my prayers as to the truthfulness of The Book of Mormon and as to the truthfulness of The Church of Jesus Christ as restored through the Prophet Joseph Smith. You can know this true.
Read Moroni 10:3-5 in The Book of Mormon.
@@clayrush1413you appear confused as to his message. He is not condoning homosexual behavior. He not contradicting the scriptures you quote at all. He is recognizing that some of God’s children are born with attractions to their own gender. But as long as they don’t act on those feelings, meaning engaging in homosexual activity, they are not sinning. The same standard of morality applies to so-called straight individuals as it does so-called gay individuals. Straight individuals are forbidden by God to engage in ANY sexual activity outside of the bonds of marriage. And to do-called gay individuals are forbidden to engage in homosexual activities. This is exactly what Paul the apostle taught. It is also what Elder Holland the apostle taught.
Truth never contradicts truth.
I thank GOD the Eternal FATHER & HIS WIFE, GODDESS, our beloved HOLY Eternal MOTHER, this amazing message, from Apostle Holland.
Angels, please surround this Servant of our Lord who in this time of his inexpressible sorrow, continues to fulfill his calling to be a 🕯️🕯️🕯️🕯️🕯️🕯️🕯️ light calling us to safety, to choose God's way where no regrets linger.
Prayers to you dear Elder Holland 🕯️.
Thank you. God is real and gives us the law of chastity which is to engage in sexual activity only as husband and wife. This is a solid truth and what a blessing it is. Obedience to this commandment is the only way to lasting commitment and a pure, true, honest and faithful relationship.
why do you believe in an adult Santa Claus?
@@dalin6275 Because Jesus Christ has done more for me and @christinebarger_eaglecrest8275 than you, or any other person ever will.
The Holy Spirit is the one that testifies of Jesus, not scientific evidence or extensive historical records.
Your mocking question seems to stem from either hatred or deep sadness. I honestly hope that one day you can also enjoy of the blessing it is knowing that the eternities are not filled with void nor oblivion, but light, love, and mercy.
Have a great Sunday.
If there's no chance of pregnancy, as in menopause, masturbation, LGBTQ relations or even married couples who use contraception, What, exactly, is the moral question involved for consenting adults? Please explain. Is it just that the body is evil and shouldn't be having orgasms unless there's a piece of paper legitimizing it? Do tell...
There simply is no way to express my love for Elder Holland, and the other church leaders. I had the privilege to meet him and his sweet wife when me and my wife went to my mission president's funeral about a year ago. Since my mission was a General Authority, many other GAs came to his viewing and funeral. Elder Holland presided, but unfortunately looked very tired. I said a little prayer towards the end of the services that the Lord would allow me to shake his hand and express my feelings towards him and his sweet wife. Even though the Bishop stated that Elder Holland would be leaving immediately after the closing prayer, he didn't. He stopped at the bottom of the stairs to the stand and waited; I wanted to think it was for me, regardless I didn't wait. I quickly walked over to him with my wife and expressed my feelings. My wife then expressed hers and made a statement complementing his wife on her beauty. Sister Holland blushed a bit and then complemented my wife, quite emphatically I might add, on how beautiful she was. It all was a very sacred experience as we were able to meed Elder Christofferson and President Eyring the evening before at the viewing. We also noticed that President Nelson was the first name on the signature book. Should have arrived a little earlier.
By the way, my oldest is gay and my mission president has been crucial in helping me deal and understand the church leadership's position on this subject. I've spoke with him at great length after he was made emeritus. My mission president's name is Elder L. Lionel Kendrick and has some wonderful conference talks that can be looked up and watched on TH-cam. He changed my life for the better in so many ways. I deeply miss him since he was very much like another father to me.
#cancelthemormoncult
@jimhatatube How great it must have been to actually meet and shake the hand of Elder Jeffery R. Holland. He is so wonderful and I have always wanted to meet him and tell him how he blesses my life. God Bless Elder Holland! I am writing this after his wife, Pat, passed away. Elder Holland is in the hospital. Heavenly Father, please bless this wonderful man! He loves the gospel and lives it and impacts my life and many others with his talks.
@@tmadsam I have been blessed in many ways when it comes to meeting church leadership. Because of who my mission president was, I've met many apostles and prophets. I was able to meet Pres. Hinkley when he was an apostle since he was speaking with my mission president at Ricks College, now BYU-Idaho, while my wife and I were going to school there. I met Elder L. Tom Perry a couple of times and sang in a regional choir sitting only a few rows away from Elder Maxwell and Elder Perry. Without exception, I felt the spirit testifying that these men were apostles of the Lord Jesus Christ. It helps me get through the hard times. I'll be honest though, I pray for and can't wait for the return of the Lord Jesus Christ.
100%! Chastity is important to follow. It is difficult for all of us. It takes effort and purpose driven living.
"The Holy Spirit's Favorite Snack Is CHASTITY." -Galatians 5:22-23; Gooftext
Chastity is important, but if a person is gay, isn’t the church asking for a life time of celibacy? That is NOT the same standard as the those of us that are straight deal with. He did not acknowledge this!
@@brucejensen3700 how would you acknowledge it? How would Christ?
@@jordan-xe2yb I’m not the one that was asked the question and I don’t claim to speak for Jesus but the answer seems to be a life of celibacy.
That’s my point. Don’t make it sound like it is the same standard as for straight people. It isn’t.
@@jordan-xe2yb
Also, I if were to guess, I would say that Christ would likely welcome a loving, monogamous relationship.
Amen It's "Chastity" keeping yourself Pure for your Self or for Me 🙏❤️
So as long as we all are striving to keep all of God's commandments, all contention and confusion eventually fades away.
Thank you Elder Holland. Perfectly said, excellent message. ❤️❤️
This guy is a false prophet and an absolute ungodly fraud.
Holland is not helpful. He thinks if he spouts enough mush, people will think he has said something.
Mr Holland, I am just going to say this. YOU KICK ASS SIR!! 😁 You Kick Ass & Take Names! 🤗
I'd sure hate to smell your shoes! lol
I have loved John McArthur for many years, but his recent sermon made my heart hurt. It was not of the Father, and it spewed hate, judgments, and separation. I lost all my respect.
You Sir haven't changed, and the Father is clearly in you!!
I am straight, and my LDS family (ward family) taught me that everyone is deserving of the Father's love and respect.
Thank You For Not Changing Sir 🤗
I think a lot of the mystery lies in the lesson to love and not lust. It is not good for a man to lust after a woman, or man. But instead to love. A love that remains even when we grow old. A love that endures the temptation of divorce. Enduring families come from the love of a man and woman. People have to learn to put their desires behind the commandments of God. When we put ourselves first we put heavenly father last.
#cancelthemormoncult
I suppose that means that a married person cant fantasize (lust) about good physical sex with their spouse. Correct?
This brings us to the question of what is the purpose of sex ? Is it just to procreate ? Certainly sexual intimacy is a good thing but at what point does it cross the line and become too lustful? How about just satisfying the natural need for a sexual release. Is that an acceptible reason for sex? Add in the Churchs regular teaching that you should "bridle your passions" and "overcome the natural man" and this issue becomes much more difficult and unclear. Based on these teachings it is easy to understand how some people could think that the Church is advocating for basically a sexless marriage (having sex once a month or less).
Sex is a difficult issue for both married couples as well as single individuals to deal with. I suppose that is made even more difficult when both the man who wants to continue haveing sex 4 times a week and his wife would prefer it be 4 times per year and not be outside of Church teaching either way. Sure it is easy to say people should not be selfish but the resentment that would build up from this type of situaltion is what often leads to more trouble than the orignal issue.
@jdw24 JD, you will have to be more specific with your response. Exactly what part of my comment is "jibberish" to you? By the way, read my more complete individual comment that I made under this video Tell me under that video what you disagree with about this issue; or not it doesnt really matter.
Love this teaching! Thanks, Will!
The voice of clarity and truth.
#cancelthemormoncult
@stevietv321 Amen!
I know what it’s like to feel as though I can never have a normal relationship with someone, and it freaking sucks. It’s the single hardest thing I’ve ever had to deal with in this life. Well, bring it on. Every law applies equally to everyone. That doesn’t mean following them comes with the same sacrifices. It was never supposed to.
I want to be the sort of person who can take it. I’m not yet as Job, am I? Sure that’s terrifying to think about, but there’s not much place for courage without a bit of fear, is there?
I’m not going to tell anyone to pull themselves up by their bootstraps and push through. I’d be a hypocrite. But there are others out there who can help, and goodness knows there’s plenty of room for more.
I’m not going to tell anybody that they have to live a certain way, but I’m sick of hearing that it’s irrational to hold yourself to certain standards if that’s what you believe in. Unhealthy even. Do what you think is right.
Sorry that you feel like god doesn’t want you to love anybody or that you have to forgo physical intimacy. I promise you you are perfect just the way you are and god isn’t concerned about which gender you love. This teaching by the church is unhealthy, homophobic and not of any god worth your worship. Be like Jesus. Treat people well, be kind and love who you love. Don’t commit to a life of celibacy bc a racist homophobic church tells you it’d what god wants. They are lying to you.
@@johnhorner1969God isn’t concerned?
@@johnhorner1969 I’m not gay. I just figure nobody in their right mind is going to want to take a chance on a guy who accidentally got addicted to something so disturbing that I can hardly imagine being remotely intimate with anyone. I haven’t got a clue what liking someone feels like, let alone love. Feels like I’m functionally asexual most of the time, but I really don’t want to spend my life alone. I don’t feel like I’m meant to.
I guess there’s supposed to be some kind of difference between underlying sexuality and the things that grow out of it, but I hear gay people talk about how that’s just always how they were from their earliest memories and I can relate. It feels like it’s always been there and it’s all I’ve ever had. It just happens to really suck in my case.
I get why people leave and I don’t blame them, but I’m not convinced anybody understands this stuff half as well as we’d all like to think. I guess I’m just willing to bet that God knows what he’s doing, and that somehow or another, everything is going to work out in the end.
I know it’s not the same for me as it is for your average gay dude, but I’m sick of being made to feel as though I don’t have a real choice, and I know I’m not alone. Through everything, nothing has ever been worse than feeling alone. I think the people who stay have just as much right to know they’re not the only ones as the people who leave, and I want to try to help with that, even if I’m not the best person for the job.
@@captainsirk1173 it sucks. But I am confident God knows how to help you and that He has a plan for your personal happiness with that struggle in mind.
#cancelthemormoncult
I love Elder Holland and his ability to to get to core issues. There is space I think to acknowledge that in the past the brethren have emphasised the sin and and have not helped the sinner separate themselves from the sin. If I believe what I’ve read President Kimball regretted not being a little more sensitive in his book, The Miracle of Forgiveness.
Wow this is an insanely cruel comment. You and Jeffrey and the rest of the church are doing immense harm. Please stop. Existing isn’t sin. Loving isn’t sin. Live is the greatest command.
@@timmiestabrnak so you're saying you don't have to live God's law of chastity but the rest of us do?
He is a cult leader! #cancelthemormoncult
@@timmiestabrnak why would it be cruel? He is literally saying that in the past the church leaders have not been as sensitive as we would rather be nowadays with these issues.
There is nothing wrong to wish a bedridden cancer patient to be free from their illness, why would it be cruel to wish that all people, no matter their sexuality, follow the law of chastity?
Wasn't it prophet Kimball who declared that oral sex was a sin? And a few weeks later the leaders had to back off because temple attendance plummeted.
Huge respect to the Elder. ❤
Thank you Elder Holland! You addressed this with sensitivity and tact while stating what we need to hear!
There is no lord and this guy is full of shit. Look how well chastised has worked for the Catholic Church. This is just insane.
#cancelthemormoncult
“We”… you mean as a homosexual right?
I’m gay and a practicing member of the church. I do not engage in homosexual behavior. If anyone is curious what that is like, or has any sort of questions about it feel free to ask. I am very open to talk, and do not get offended easily.
As a gay practicing member do you believe that heavenly father does not wish you to engage in a marriage of your natural choosing?
Being chaste until marriage is a universal idea many religious and non religious people hold but it seems that being unable to marry and act as lawfully married individuals emotionally and physically whilst remaining a fully entitled member harkens back to the church's original views on blacks in the priesthood. Would it be beyond reason to think that prophet revelation for allowing same sex marriage is going to occur in our current lifetimes?
I am interested in following this thread to see where it goes. :-)
Sure, how long do you think you will last?
@@Applest2oApples for the rest of my life. I joined the church when I was a teenager, and left the church for several years. I came back because it’s what I wanted. I have nothing keeping me there, and I would face zero social repercussions if I left. I’m here because it’s what I truly want.
@@osiris7208 you are absolutely correct. I 100% experience same sex sexual attraction. One of the hardest part about not being what people conventionally view as how a gay person should act, is that everyone thinks they now have the right to tell you what you are. I can’t tell you how many times people have tried to tell me that I must be bi or asexual, but I very much am a guy who is only attracted to other guys. I have experienced discrimination by people in the church for being gay, and it’s caused me to be very secretive about it with members, but I’ve experienced the same push back from people who support the LGBT. It seems to me that you are only valid to people as long as you fit the box of what a gay person looks like to them. It really sucks to be told that I’m not gay, because homosexuality doesn’t exist. It also really sucks to be told I can’t be gay and choose to attend a religion. Both sides of the coin can be extremely toxic, and will only give you validation as a human as long as you conform to what they’ve decided you must be. Regardless of what boxes people have told me I must fit in, I am very much gay, and my religious choice isn’t what decides my sexuality.
Chastity is awesome and underrated! Chastity is the 9th Fruit of the Spirit in Galatians 5:22-23
#cancelthemormoncult
16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
It does us well, to study the whole chapter this year.
Fruit of the Holy Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, and temperance. I have been having a hard time with hope and joy lately. The physical and spiritual trials are getting harder and will only continue to get more difficult as the coming of the LORD gets closer.
I was just teaching my seven year old daughter what it means to be baptized. As she has learned about Jesus in primary I have asked her if she would like to follow Him and make a covenant to be separate from the world. Everyday we talk more about what that means, to follow Jesus and believe in His way and come out from the world. My older children listen and we have some discussions on how to love God and how to love our fellow man. We read scriptures about the nature of man and what puttingvoff the natural man means. We talk about what yielding to the enticing of the Holy Spirit means. We talk about God's promises of being filled with love. We get to choose to believe God or don't. I get to show whether I believe Him or don't. That's all I can do as a parent.
After two mariages I have been alone for more than 20 years now. Keeping chaste was difficult in the first few years but it becomes easier, the longer you keep it and also knowing it is right in my situation helps a good deal. Not alone single gender alike feeling people need to keep chaste. Also hetero people living withouth a partner need to keep chaste. So gender alike loving people are for sure not alone in this!
I am so thankful that I have never had a problem with knowing and accepting that my gender at birth was female and I have lived as a female all of my life. One problem I don't have!
Back in graduate school, I had a gay friend who was investigating the church. I did not introduce him to it. I addressed it simply in accordance with the law of chastity that, no matter what temptation you face, if you follow God's commandment to only have relations with your legal and lawful spouse, you are conforming. I don't know if he joined, but he felt less put upon as a "sinner" because I "shifted the discourse" to chastity, which is what it is really about.
Those who are fully homosexual more is being asked of them by the Church to sacrifice than those who are not fully homosexual in their feelings. Those who are fully gay in their feelings, (have no attraction to the opposite sex at all.) They have to live a much higher bar of difficulty in the church than the others do in order to keep the same of law of chastity because they don't have the required opposite sex feelings for marriage so they have to deny everything of themselves of their gay feelings in order to live that strict law of chastity, so the law is I think more harsher for this group while those who are hetrosexual or are bi-sexual, have it less harsh because they are not being denied everything and can still exercise their feelings and date within marriage even those who have no opportunity to marry here in this life can still date and have hope for marriage in the temple who have either the hetrosexual feelings or have a degree of them (bi). But for those who are fully gay, and unable to marry the opposite sex then lifelong chastity is whats expected and no hope of gay marriage is what the church offers if they unable to marry to the opposite sex having not the opposite sex feelings which which means they have to deny everything of their gay feelings and remain single and chaste as they cannot exercise any of their same-sex feelings that is why the law is more harsher so they get impacted more fully by this law while bisexuals get half impacted by it, and the straights are not impacted by these gay restrictions so it don't affect them and they are free to express all their feelings
inside of marriage inside of God's laws while the bi-sexuals are only allowed to express the straight side in marriage and have to deny the gay side.. But homosexual behavior has definitely been outlawed by God as being outside of his law..
So its a special conundrum for those who don't have any of the hetrosexual feelings or are not bi-sexual, so they don't really qualify for marriage, thus some of them may have to wait instead until the Millennium in order to marry the opposite sex and at the same time deny themselves of everything in order to stay chaste just so they can conform to the strict law of chastity to qualify for that blessing if not here in this life.
Those who are not fully impacted by this just think the restrictions maybe just all the same for straights and bi-sexuals as for those who are fully gay, but that is not accurate for those who are fully gay are more restricted in the church than the bi-sexuals are in their feelings. Because the bi-sexuals can fall back on their straight side and just turn their gay side off to conform, so they are only required to deny half of themselves to conform to the law of chastity, but the fully homosexual member who doesn't experience any opposite sex feelings attractions at all however has nothing to fall back on and have to fully deny themselves of everything and have no hope of gay marriage so they are required to deny everything of themselves just to conform or to seek professional help to try to reverse their own sexuality in order to try to qualify for the blessings.. But that doesn't always work out either for everybody. So the Lord's answer is that for some its a trial that has to be endured here in this life and lifelong celibacy may be what's required to live the law of chastity if the Lord will not heal that person of the same-sex attraction here in this life..
The Lord does not leave a whole lot options when it comes to the law of chastity. Hes very strict with this law.
So its a difficult situation for those people who don't have any degree of opposite sex attraction.
Its the same law for everyone who is not married, but it impacts people differently..
The Church has already said that it will not be changing this Law of Chasity. So the trial of SSA continues on for those
same sex attracted only members. God is not going to let up on his law of chastity.
Are non-sexual celibate relationships even possible for those with only same-sex attraction?, I dunno if that's even possible.
But talking more about the law of chastity and less about Gender I think will just probably upset some of the gay single members
who talk all the time about gender instead of about chastity.
I'm a little confused by Hollands words here when he says the issue is just about chastity and not about gender
because the church teaches that there are only two genders in eternity, just male and female when it comes to marriage.
There are those gay saints in the Church who are just not willing to make the sacrifice for lifelong celibacy as its not an easy road. I think half the trouble why some of the gay saints find it more difficult is because they are still in the world and of the world instead of being in the world and not of the world..... (not converted yet to the gospel) Because you cannot hang out in all the wrong places or it unleashes that SSA,and will sooner or later go out of control then it gets more harder to live the law of Chasity Harder to live by Gods covenants. But they try to serve two masters one foot in the world and one foot in Zion and end up hating one and loving the other. These people want to have it both ways but God says you can't have it both ways in Zion.
I had a problem with one of the tennis clubs recently where certain people were swearing on the tennis court, and bringing up also lewd suggestive talk also during play and also after playing and it was driving away the Spirit gradually little by little each time I went there, so seeing the standard just wasn't acceptable and the people were going to do nothing to correct it, I left and went to another club where there wasn't the problem of profanity going on where the standards are higher.
@@JS-fm7ch Yes, When it comes to adversity, every person gets a surprisingly fair share, and when we stand at the bar to be asked what we did with our challenges, we will know how to answer and it will not be with any excuse nor will we compare our adversity to others. I have a child with an extra female chromosome. Others’ hormone balances are affected by plastics and harsh chemicals in the environment, hormone disruptors etc., etc. what they disrupt is a lot, but it is still not something where one would be healthy to just go with the disruption. There are birth defects, and yet someone born without legs still learns to be resilient, not full of excuse-making. I’m just saying that “attraction”, per se, is nOT a guideline or valid stance any more than one being attracted to eating too much cake or shopping too much or whatever. We are all challenged by attractions to counterproductive, glittering imbibe-ments. Attraction is not “bottom line”, especially since addiction is also an attraction thing. Does that make the fact that attraction itself says everything? It does not. Even in using the ancient 7 Steps of Human Entrapment to lure victims, perpetrators know that they can create a destructive attraction that will serve the perpetrator, not the victim, and this is how the Gadianton Robbers work, which is the same pattern used by the mafia, blackmail, drug pushers, sexual abusers, human traffickers, bullies, media manipulators, and all other firms of abuse of power including socialism (which is anti-social for this very reason), and communism, which is anti-community, the very opposite of how it attempts to sell itself, claiming that bad is good, and that good is bad.
The law of sacrifice is everything to our salvation, denying ourselves of all that God deems as unGodly. Can we not trust Him on His judgment? Yes we can, because He is advanced far ahead if us and knows much more than do we. He is an arm on which we can 100% trust.
The Lord will heal everything we suffer, but we must not assume that our present, earthly, imperfect condition opts us out of obligation to principles of truth that do not change. The “church” does not have the option of changing the Lord’s wise standards or doctrine because these are Christ’s doctrines and standards, not the leaders’. So hoping for leniency is not even wisdom for our own true, healed happiness! Hoping for understanding in Christ’s wisdom and healing is where our hearts can find peace. He is 100% perfect in how to perfect our “attractions” as we learn and pray to love what He loves. That’s what I pray for-to learn to love what he loves because he is the one with perfected perspective on how to obtain the highest joy. For those who don’t know that for themselves yet-seek a testimony of that first, asking why it is that he chooses how he chooses and how he knows the truly best way to the highest joy. Is it not our highest sense of joy that we truly desire?- to feel our very best at our highest potential of feeling best? May we lean on his wisdom and not assume our own is sufficient. We are still infants in our progression. But he has worked the full path and knows where the full joy is. May always trust him on that.
@@JS-fm7chthank you for your words!
Yes legal and lawful spouse is not the rule. It has to be a heterosexual marriage only.
Most of our problems in the world would be solved if we lived the law of chastity. Well said.
Don’t you mean the law of charity?
This comment should receive an award for being one of the dumbest things ever said. People are starving, people are homeless, there are wars and murders happening all day every day. . Where in the world is your brain?!
This comment should receive an award for being one of the dumbest things ever said. People are starving, people are homeless, there are wars and murders happening all day every day. . Where in the world is your brain?!
...and that what is all about!
Simple and clear!
Beautifully answered
Absolutely about obedience to God’s laws.
You were born that way and you both fall in love but your religion wont allow you to get merried..
@@bagnasbayabasif someone is born straight and wants to have intercourse with many women it doesn’t mean it’s okay even though he was naturally born with those tendencies and desires. That’s simply called a temptation that needs to be resisted. That’s why it is about obedience. We are all born with different tendencies and desires. It doesn’t mean we don’t need to change our behaviors.
Besides if a church claiming to be God’s church changed their stance on a controversial topic based on public opinion then it would only be the Church of Public Opinion.
Easy for you to say when you’re married and get both love and sex. What a cruel , obnoxious, out of touch thing to say!
@@elmergloo3259 sorry gay people because you can never fall in love and get married just like straight people.
Religion do not accept naturally born gay.
@@timmiestabrnak what a cruel world. They dont know the word natural means.
No wonder some gay members left the church.
Amen and amen well said Elder Holland😊😊😊
So on point. 🙏
#cancelthemormoncult
This is literally therapy for me
I don't know if this is what everyone else is thinking but he didn't say anything about same-sex marriage. He never addressed it. I think if he were pressed he'd say it is not in the Lord's plan for His children.
Knowing all else we know, how could it be?
doesnt actually exist, not in the Plan
@@SaxSpy I dont think it does exist in the plan. There are no partners in the lower kingdoms to tell us that it exists.
It’s wishful thinking. Same sex marriage is not part of the plan of salvation. It’s plain and simple in the scriptures. If you argue against that, you’re arguing against Gods plan. 🤷♂️
The Church’s position on homosexuality has changed over time, a LOT. The Church still has no clear doctrine on how a same sex person fits into Heavenly Father’s Plan. They have only made statement like our opinion is X. They even went as far as supporting gay marriage in United States. I don’t think we have heard all their is on this subject from the Savior.
I find it interesting that in this clip Elder Holland did NOT define what the Church means by "chastity" so either 1) he is skirting around the issue that chastity in the church means abstinence before heterosexual marriage and fidelity within heterosexual marriage or 2) he is preparing the Church for the day when chastity means the same for both heterosexual and homosexual couples - abstinence before gay-marriage and fidelity within gay-marriage.
If someone shares a harsh truth directly it's intolerant/mean; if they share a harsh truth gently its misconstrued. Skirting is certainly a way to put it, but gentle is likely more appropriate. It's incredibly presumptuous to think that one day hetero and homo will be the same, but then again, I didn't think "genders" would ever be socially interchangeable either.
Faith , love, trust Jesus
I appreciate his comments. One thing that needs to be clarified is whether gender reassignment and cross dressing is against the law of chastity.
Deuteronomy 22:5
Definitely not allowed
Cross dressing isn't allowed when the intent is to make yourself look like the opposite gender. You can imagine it like how kilts are perfectly acceptable for men to wear, but skirts aren't. The ultimate reason behind this is because it denies one of the most sacred and beautiful gifts that you've been given, the nature of your own mortal body.
In terms of gender reassignment, the logic there is the same. You've been given a beautiful body, and to presume that we know better than God on how we are to be, or that the gender we are is somehow wrong for us is a terrible way to spit in the face of God. I understand that gender disphoriya is a very real medical condition, and I know that such a condition can be terribly difficult to deal with, but just like Elder Holland said, we focus on the wrong issue. It's not a matter of whether you feel at home in your body but whether you are willing to sacrifice your own desires in order to preserve its divinely inspired beauty and cleave more fully to our Savior, and to God.
I don't feel you can say it is the same for heterosexuals and the LGBTQ community.
I am a woman who has been divorced for 17 years, and who has been chaste for the whole time. I believe in and understand the law of chastity. If I were to find my eternal companion, the one who would be my best friend, lover, and better half, there would be joy and rejoicing from me, my family, and the church leaders. I would be able to have the blessings of eternity with the one I love, and yes, attraction is very much a part of that.
If my beautiful, gay, daughter, who has also remained chaste, finds her best friend, soul mate, better half and lover (she is physically unable to be attracted to the opposite sex, so her soul mate would be of the same sex), there not only would not be rejoicing, there would be condemnation, removal of blessings and the requirement to run away from any possibility of that relationship with no possibility of another one unless she is able to change into someone she isn't and be attracted to someone she can't be. I guess the other possibility is to marry someone she can't be attracted to and then have both she and her spouse live in a relationship that will never be able to fulfill eiter one the way marriage is meant to.
I am not saying the church needs to change its stance on gay marraige, that is up to God. What I am saying is there needs to be more compassion and understanding of what we are asking of our gay brothers and sisters and not judge them when they say they can't remain members of this church and remain mentally healthy.
The law of chastity may be technically the same for both same sex attractrd and heterosexuals, but it is not the same in reality. The pain and sacrifice is far, far greater for my sweet daughter than it is for me.
My husband is same-sex attracted and we have been struggling to deal with that as a couple for over 20 years now. We even tried to get a divorce and separated for 4 years and God only wanted us to have some time apart and now we are trying to reconcile with God's help. We are in the midst of reading An Impossible Marriage and it is very insightful.
Thank you for your comment. I was thinking the same thing as I watched the video. I completely agree with everything Elder Holland said. I do think chastity is the key challenge for all single adults regardless of sexual orientation.
However, the topic of marriage is a whole different situation. I agree that we need greater compassion for our LGBTQ+ friends and family who cannot marry their soulmate in the temple and have the same blessings of eternal marriage. You sound like a wonderful mother (my sons are 25 and 26) and I wish you and your daughter all the best! 💖💖 ~ Dara
I’m not LDS. I grew up in the church but no longer practice. That being said, I think I understand this conundrum and the only way to rationalize it is like this:
We were all sent to this life with our own set of trials, tribulations, and challenges. Some have it harder than others and only Heavenly Father knows why.
Some people are born with Cerebral Palsy. THAT’S a tough life and one could argue it’s unfair. But god has his reasons.
Some people are born gay and will never enjoy the same earthly pleasures that a straight person would if they’re following the commandments. That’s a tough life and one could argue it’s unfair. But god has his reasons.
I don’t claim to know how it actually works, but if you believe in the gospel, you can’t have it both ways.
Do you know that President Spencer W. Kimball said there is no such thing as "soul-mate"? He, and other prophets have said that love is a choice we make. And please ask Sheri Dew how she feels about pain and sacrifice. In reality, it is exactly the same, chastity is the same for everyone. If your sweet daughter is not looking for love with other women, then she will have an easier time remaining chaste. She probably needs to be careful about who she associates with. Rather like another sister not dating non-members or those who don't share moral values. I do have compassion for your daughter. The crosses we are called to bear often seem beyond our abilities, but that is what the Savior is for, to help us bear them and resist temptation. May God bless her in her journey.
@@JS-fm7ch your thoughts are so beautifully expressed! Thank you for sharing your experience and your journey. Bless you for deciding on your priorities and finding inner peace! I agree that we existed before we came to earth, and we agreed to the circumstances of our life. We each have our own unique set of circumstances, and there are many people who will not marry in this life... some for reasons other than LGBTQ factors. It is so hard for us mortals to really have an eternal perspective, and often life just seems really "unfair". Thank you again for your comment! Bless you 💖
I like his response. I feel like the actual issue is self acceptance in the unspoken demographic this is addressing. The truth is that it is difficult to feel holy while not chaste. It doesn't mean that we/they/them are growing horns (like the devil) while breaking that commandment. It should allow us to become hyper aware of the dangers to our health both physically, mentally and most of all spiritually. Id like to also refer to the fact that those who have decided to live by some rules and decide to meet in specific places should be allowed to do so without being protested against and slandered publicly especially when those people happen to be the church..any and all churches..sexuality should never interfere with church. We can be proud to have people willing to speak on the issue but it reflects just how fast our spiritual common sense can be obscured. Those are private concerns. I will finish by saying this is my personal opinion not at all endorsed by the church as far as I can say. I do tip my hat to those who have had thier vision blurred and have stayed on the path. God still loves us all and maybe we can not let these issues make the devil himself grin so proudly. Know that when you pray, you are forgiven. Being accepted at church is a different subject all together. Respect and promote the traditional family as much as possible, when it works it is a beautiful thing! AMEN
In all fairness, the standard IS different for those with same-sex attraction. The definition of chastity allows for sexual relations inside a heterosexual marriage, but not in a homosexual one. Imagine being attracted sexually to your spouse in a heterosexual marriage, but not being allowed to have any type of sexual relations. That is the standard we require of those with same-gender attraction. The treatment is NOT equal.
Well said! Holland, in his syrupy sweet way, just dismisses the core of the issue. He fails to mention and acknowledge the reality that within the Mormon church you cannot be active and practicing and be gay in a committed and fulfilling relationship at all levels of intimacy. You can't be in a gay marriage and Mormon. This effectively cuts out the need for chastity. He is effectively telling LGBTQ people you don't need to worry about chastity because you don't get to explore sexuality within relationships.
Nor should it be equal. Homosexual relationships are not, and never will be, equal to that of male and female.
@@marathon-3hr The Lord and eternal law says it. Homosexual relationships are a literal dead end and cannot lead to exaltation. There's no getting around that.
@@jaredshipp9207 show me where God has said this as an eternal last. And you don't get to use any mormon church leader statements. They have no moral sway on me. I don't view them as authorities on God. They are liars and crooks not prophets. Nelson and Oaks are proficient at lying. God doesn't lie. Man does though. No where in Mormon scriptures does God condone homosexuality and the Bible is grossly misinterpreted and translated for control. Have you ever asked God if he hates homosexuals? Have you deeply pondered it? Have you reconciled the love of God with the hateful rhetoric towards LGBTQ people? How do you deal with the cognitive dissonance that comes from such a deep wrestle?
Homosexual “marriage” doesn’t exist. It doesn’t fulfill any of the necessary characteristics of a marriage. A mother cannot be replaced by another father. The unification of the sexes in marriage is a part of the image of God; it cannot be replicated among those of the same sex.
amen, thank you Father God, it is a matter of chastity
You can't get more clear than that.
Clear? Not so much. At best it’s a slippery, misleading answer. Take being chaste to one level deeper. Sexual relationship inside of marriage is permitted and follows the rule of chastity. So is he clearly stating that within a legal same sex marriage all blessings of the Lord are bestowed to that couple? The wisdom of these aged and seasoned men comes in the form of perfecting the right sound bite for the followers to praise. Even hate can wear pretty lipstick. And those that may suggest “our marriage doesn’t follow the law of the land” I believe #12 of the articles of faith has a good point…
@@sbailey210It's a core fundamental of the theology, the whole "neither is the man without the woman" scripture in 1 Corinthians 11. It's not even unique to Mormons. You cannot endorse same sex unions, simply put, because otherwise it would be theologically contradictory.
@@scottanno8861ok fair. Only issue is Holland is surgically cutting out your gender framework and upgrading it with a new and improved chastity one. Holland suggests that theologically speaking it is more about chastity and not gender, his words not mine. My point is we’re all getting master classed in nice sounding words, while, deep down inside he is really believing exactly what you do…it’s about a boy and a girl and not marriage.
@@sbailey210 Holland overrationalizes things for the sake of rhetoric. He should just simply put out the theology and draw the line due to that. Like the Pope and celibacy for clergy.
Clear would be to explain to a straight man that in order to gain gods love and approval you’d have to marry and have sex with another man forever and you’d be turned gay after this life of suffering through an unfulfilling and traumatic relationship. That’s the shoe on the other foot. That is clear. You think any god worth your worship wants that for you? Didn’t think so. So why do you believe in this bullshit church?
Physical intimacy between married man and woman is such a powerful and holy Act that must be kept within the bonds of matrimoney. In the act, life is created, marriage bond strengthened, divorce defeated and God the bringer of life summoned. So this holy act must not be abused the same with the powers. So much which is spiritual takes place...... When man decides to sleep with man, he is mocking the very God who is Holy who created them and in the equation making contact with the powers of darkness and defile themselves. We can be masters of ourselves and rule over ourselves, including choosing and resisting to death the urge of homosexuality. We are not to be ruled over or be servants to the sin of homosexuality. Rather we should be our own masters and servants of no sin.
We also need to remember. Just like someone who struggles with porn can change and one day no longer struggle with it, people attracted to the same sex can also change through Christ's atonement. It won't be over night, but you can change and no longer struggle with that temptation it just takes faith and perseverance.
Do you have a same sex attraction? I’m guessing not. No one needs to change what they were born with. People are enough just as they are.
Well said Bro Holland wheter Gay or straight it is about chastitiy and honoring God in what we do
Thank for posting this video. I have been struggle to figure how to explain, like being deaf, being homosexual, is not sin but the action of their choice may be. Didn’t think of the word “chastity” till just now. Again thank for posting this video. It give me some idea.
We are all equal in the eyes 👀 of the Lord.
I dont always mind my own business but when I do, it works 100% of the time.
That's how it is for me.
I thought I was gay for a long time. Society teaches us that if we find someone attractive of the same sex that makes us "gay". I've learned that is a false label and a destructive way to view yourself and the world. I learned to see the attractiveness in women and learned to let go of the idea that "because I also saw men as attractive I was gay". Men and women are attractive in different ways. Just because you can acknowledge that sexual attractiveness doesn't mean you need to put yourself in a box. You have much more choice than you think you do if you are anything like me.
There are people who are intensely addicted to porn, that doesn't mean that can only be attracted to porn. It also doesn't mean they can't choose to abstain from it. It can be excruciatingly difficult, but it's possible with the Saviors help and your choice.
Amen 🙏
Love this by Elder Holland!
Agree with all that’s said about chastity. As a gay man in the church, I’m offended by the comment that we “struggle” with same sex attraction. Being queer is not a negative quality. I’m proud of who I am and how God made me.
Do you not find it difficult to never be able to indulge those desire though? Does it not make anything for you harder?
I think the "struggle" part is the same kind of "struggle" that those who are heterosexual can experience in not acting on urges.
For some people not acting physically on attraction is not difficult, but for others it is.
I do see special qualities in ss attracted couples and have a few ss attracted friends in and out of the church. I find them often to be easier to communicate with, fun and generally judging less and loving more. I understand what you are saying and hope that my interpretation of the comment makes sense. Typing is such a limited communication medium
God loves you because you are his child, period. Being gay or straight doesn’t disqualify you from his love but an active homosexual lifestyle does disqualify you from entering his kingdom. Being proud to be gay is the equivalent of being proud to be an alcoholic or a drug addict 🤦♀️
It doesn't matter what you are attracted to. Keep the commandments and those attractions will become precious moments between you and Jesus. They are for me!
"Cherish those who speak the truth, but beware of those who find it." (Voltaire)
Because those who find it may hate it with a passion…
YE simple truth. First rule is to love God and that helps the rest fall in place. Do what madders most and don't forget. God will never dissapoint. You might get dissapointed before you realize how perfect He and His work is though
Assuming I outlive him, I’m going to miss Elder Holland terribly.
#cancelthemormoncult
He has really given thought and empathy. So hard to stand for truth. I struggle to understand if you are gay, how can one stay alone?
“What we ask for those inclined to a homosexual feeling is exactly what we ask for those with heterosexual feelings." - Elder Holland
No, you do not. Compare this to a clarification of the BYU Honor Code from March 2020, “Same-sex romantic behavior cannot lead to eternal marriage and is therefore not compatible with the principles included in the Honor Code.”
I know BYU Honor Code is not church doctrine, but if same-sex dating is not considered chaste at BYU where is it considered chaste? If it is considered chaste outside of BYU then why prohibit it while there?
There's no same sex dating program in the Church, its not in our sunday school manuals or in our lesson books. And if there is no same sex dating program in the curriculum then there's no same sex marriage. So these things are not encouraged because the doctrine of the church teaches that marriage is to be with a member of only the opposite sex.
Was he evading the issue, or did he hit the nail right on the head? For me, he hit the nail right on the head, at this point in time of our understanding.
Yes, go through life without love. That’s the plan? So simple. So easy!
Right⁉️🤯😟😤💔
Do you think that if someone can’t live the law of chastity that God somehow doesn’t love them? Of course He does. And so do many members of the church (though we’re not perfect).
Receiving Gods love doesn’t mean you’ve kept all the commandments, nor does it mean that you get a free pass to break the law of chastity.
So you can’t live the Law of Chastity- God still loves you.
So you can’t get a temple marriage or attend the temple because you break the law of chastity- God still loves you.
Doesn’t mean you need to try to change God’s commandments.
Let’s say you don’t even try to live the law of chastity and get excommunicated- God still loves you!
So no, you don’t have to go through life without love. Just stop getting offended every time someone teaches the Law of Chastity. You’re not a victim.
Often times, it's better to go without temporarily than it is to do it wrong. I've spent a chunk of my life working with people that did it wrong and most of them, what they wouldn't give to take it back and have done it right. Nobody said this life would be easy and there's always someone that has it a lot worse off than you do. Sometimes, it's better not at all than to do it wrong, because at all can always change, but to do it wrong can take a long time to fix and that feeling doesn't ever go away. Even if one subscribes to evolution, gender still plays a vital role, but you have to understand why that is, this isn't compatible with that no matter how you want to slice it. I promise you
That's the fallacy of this argument. Nobody has to go through life without love. Love is sacrifice. Love is action. God's love is full and true and extended to all, not to mention love from a faith family, regular family, etc. Nobody has to go through life without love and when we do its usually because we turn away from God's love. It may be simple but nothing is easy, especially things worth doing, especially things with eternal consequences. God will provide ways for all His children to keep his commandments. But it is rarely ever easy.
I wouldn’t confuse love with Attraction.
We’ll follow the Saviours teachings on the matter and the fact is he taught “Chastity “
Any other interpretation is simply wrong.
I recognise it’s difficult but it’s wrong!
Thank you Elder Holland
I found this as my own answer in my search to know how to confront these questions and scenarios. I'm glad he confirmed it.. The Law of Chastity. Look at that, going back to primary basics. The human family really won't progress as a whole past them till the millenium. For now, the basics can prepare one to live a celestial law in the presence of God.
HONEST QUESTION: Can a Hetero-normative Couple kiss each-other on BYU campus? Can a Gay Couple kiss on the BYU campus? If not, then does that affirm Elder Holland's Answer?
My question is this: If I were lesbian, and got married civilly in the country where it is legal, is it still considered breaking the law of chastity? Even in the temple it says "legally and lawfully married", so this is something I am confused about.
Yes, man's laws are irrelevant. It's about eternal law recognized by the Lord. Same-sex relationships have always, and will always, be sinful. And a dead end in the eternal sense.
Spoiler alert it’s just made up, it’s that simple.
@@Applest2oApples You are in for a surprise.
@@jaredshipp9207 Can you complete this number sequence: 2 4 6 8 ?
@@jaredshipp9207 a bit too tough, huh?
There is no in between , there is no ambiguity, there is no confusion, there is no grey lines. The Lord was very clear in his standing and position on this topic.
The fact is, there is nothing that is more clear than what an absolutely false manmade ungodly abomination the cult of mormonism is.
I agree. Sodom and gomorrah is an example.
@@arotogtech ,...Sodom and Gomorrah is an example of what is going to happen to all those snared into the Godless, false, manmade abomination of mormonism.
@@tonybasoni8443
Interesting. But why do you call it the abomination of mormonism?
@@arotogtech ,....Because mormonism is a 100% fake manmade abomination. Mormonism has nothing whatsoever to do with the God, the Jesus, nor the Christianity of the Bible. Mormonism is a 100% antigod/antibible/antichrist/manmade religion. It is everything the Bible repeatedly warns us not to be deceived by.
Please read the book of Jude. It is speaking of mormonism.
For LGBTQ members the command is to be celibate and alone until you die. Jesus said " it is not good for man to be alone". For single members the command is to be celibate until you find someone to marry. That is a much different standard.
God's standard is to keep the commandments regardless of personal cost. some commandments may be easier to keep than others. Some may require more of a sacrifice for some than others. There is also daily repentance for all. God understands, God is perfect and Christ suffered for all so that he would be able to succor all men in their infirmities and provide grace and strength. His promises are sure. Our difficult choice is whether we will follow him or not. But he has surely set conditions for each person and they are not easy. God bless you!
As someone whose health began deteriorating when she was only 16 years old, I never had the chance to even have a boyfriend, let alone marry, and I probably won't in my lifetime. The Church isn't singling me out or mistreating me because I am expected to live the law of chastity, the same law someone who is LGBTQ+ (or straight) would be expected to live. To be totally frank, there are privileges that many people who experience same-sex attraction in the Church have that I do not because of damage caused to my body by doctors' well-meaning-but-ultimately-very-destructive ministrations over the years (I haven't been able to wear normal clothing for over 20 years due to permanent damage the doctors caused when I was a teenager, and that means I can't wear Temple clothing). Again, they aren't singling me out or persecuting me. It's just the way things sometimes are in an imperfect world. I know that, in the end, there will not be ANY blessing I am denied if I remain faithful and endure the struggles of my life to the very end. This knowledge fills my heart, and I can feel the Lord's love for me, especially when I am willing to be patient and long-suffering and continue in faith despite the challenges I must live with every day.
I don't know what it's like to feel same-sex attraction, but I know what it's like to have pain every day of my life, often severe pain that may leave me in bed for hours or days. I know what it's like to be unable to attend church for years because a sufficiently safe environment for someone of my severely-compromised health condition cannot be created in my local church meetinghouse (i.e. ward building). I know what it's like to sometimes have a few members of the Church, even occasionally a local Church leader or two, say horrible things to me and ridicule me for being sick, but thankfully such people are very much in the minority. I know what it's like to feel lonely, to feel like others have forgotten that I exist, and to struggle, sometimes for years, just to get a chance to have the interviews necessary to renew my Temple Recommend (and the frustration it causes when local leaders are confused over what to do with a long-time member renewing her recommend when she has never had, and cannot have in this life, her Temple ordinances done in the first place). In short, I know what it's like to feel as though things aren't always fair, and, truth be told, in this world things are not always fair, even in the Church. That's just a fact of life.
People often say, "The Church is perfect but the people are not". My dad took exception with this after he left the Church, saying that, "The Church is made up of the people, so one can't be perfect if the other isn't." I do not feel that any Church, no matter how inspired by Heaven it might be, can ever be perfect because perfection is an attribute of God, not the works of mankind, even inspired works like the scriptures. Joseph Smith never even said the Book of Mormon was perfect. He said it was "the most correct of any book on Earth", but the Book of Mormon prophets make it clear that they knew their record could not reach the lofty spire of perfection. In my humble opinion, expecting perfection from ANY Church is eventually toxic to one's personal faith. Acknowledging that there will be imperfections in any Church with members and leaders who are, themselves, imperfect people just like ourselves is, if you ask me, essential to lasting, unshakable faith.
Well I read every part of what you wrote and I can imagine us being 2 great friends. I really have no idea what it's like to go through what you went through, but the way you understand the struggle of a homosexual for having points similar to your life makes me understand you too, because even though your pain is on different levels in this point in relation to the church is very real with mine.
A straight person can be in a loving, committed sexual relationship with someone they are attracted to AND keep the law of chastity. A gay person can't. So the end result of this is that the gay members of the church don't get the same blessings as straight members do. So sure, its "all about chastity" but the effects of the law of chastity on the real world are that gay members of the church as a group, are not equal to straight members.
@@JS-fm7ch I thought all are equal unto God.
And my issue isn't with God, its with people who claim to speak for God.
The thing about a heterosexual couple is it isn’t all about sex, where as for gay people it can all be about sex. A man and woman can’t have sex all the time because of emotional & physical limitations and needs of women (menstruation, after childbirth, she’s only ready when she’s emotionally ready, etc) so the man has to spend some time not having sex with his wife and still take care of her emotionally. Whereas a gay couple can (and do) have sex many times every day of the week, month, year. The same natural limitations aren’t there between them. Don’t forget the eternal perspective. We’re only here for a little while and billions of others have suffered way more in this life than we have with our modern comforts.
@@jillianhq er... women can have sex while menstruating, after child birth and WTF are you talking about when she's "emotionally ready"...? Men deal with erectile dysfunction, refractory periods, etc. And how do you know so much about gay men's sex lives? :D You also forgot about lesbian sex lives (both are women...) You are coming across as extremely ignorant about sex in general...
You realize every couple is different and that applies to heterosexual couples and homosexual couples right?
Just because other people have suffered isn't an excuse to make other people suffer... You're trying to be dismissive so you don't have to think about how harmful that way of thinking is. Its not an excuse to hurt people.
Look up the talk signs symbols and sacraments for a more complete answer, he explains the why verry well.
But if you only teach about chastity the alphabet community will say, “then I’ll just marry my same gender partner and I’ll be good”, since breaking chastity is doing things out of wedlock. Teaching only about chastity is not enough, we have to keep emphasizing between a Man and a Woman.
YOU .................NAILED IT !!!!!!!!!!!!
God's marriage is only exclusive between man and wife. I will go one step further the only marriage valid for God is the marriage he established, Temple marriage.
@@mahonri69yup, although I still recommend having a civil marriage just so it’s legally binding and all that. Temple marriage is indeed the most important.
Altogether too much is said about chastity and altogether too little about morality. Moral questions involve harming another person. There is no moral question involved with orgasms. A new life may be created with sexual relations -- so that is a moral question. Simple physical pleasure by consenting adults, however, involves no such question -- i.e. LGBTQ, post-menopause, vasectomy, masturbation and even married heterosexual couples who use birth control. There is no moral question in these instances. Pleasure is not immoral, per se. Grow up, people.
Maybe start by not calling them the alphabet community.
This is a good focus and a 90% complete answer. This advice is exactly the same for everyone that is single.
The part he did not address is that heterosexuals who get married do not break any commandments by having sex, while homosexuals do. Why is this the case? The only answer we can give is that it is just the way it written in the scriptures. It's a commandment, so we follow it.
I think we focus way too much on attraction in our society. Sexual attraction is only one part of a relationship. We all know that usually when we meet our partners, we are sexually attracted to them, but over the years, life happens, gravity sets in, and that initial sexual attraction is not there as much. But hopefully by then, we are still attracted to them in a much deeper way.
When I was younger, I was very attracted to men with big muscles. Now it is their personality that attracts me to someone. So your attraction can change!!
We also know that some children that have been sexually abused as kids, will be sexually attracted to kids when they are grown. But do we argue that they can't be true to themselves unless they act on that attraction? No... We tell them to suppress that urge or they will end up in jail. But the same argument can be said of them and their desires, that we use for same sex attraction! Are we asking them to deny their true selves by refraining from sex with children? Are we asking them to live a life of denying themselves who they are really attracted to? After all, they did not choose to be abused as kids, they can't help that they are sexually attracted to kids because of it!! But.... They CAN choose to deny those feelings. They can choose to be chaste. They CAN choose to follow Christ. All that is in their power and they will be so much stronger and more in control of their mind and bodies if they work on staying true to God's laws.
I am a single mom, who has to suppress my sexual desires. Maybe I will get a husband again, maybe not. But I can live a beautiful fulfilling life, without acting on my desires or attractions.
Focus on what we know to be true. Pray for the help to suppress what needs to be suppressed. We CAN control our desires and our bodies. We can teach ourselves to focus on eternal happiness that gives us joy. We need to be in control of our bodies and desires and not let our bodies control us!
#cancelthemormoncult
You still have attractions though, do you not? The idea of being with a man, including sexually, is appealing?
Nah I think there’s too much focus on personal purity. These doctrines are incredibly selfish when you think about it.
Are these comments censored? I've yet to see a comment in disagreement with the elder. I am neither gay nor Mormon but I find this subject facinating.
I felt the same way! I couldn’t believe how few people disagreed. I posted that I thought it was ridiculous and people are missing the point. I never considered that it might be censored.
I literally had this view ages ago... I was shut down by a LGBTQ parent.
Can you or would you elaborate? What was the basis for them shutting you down. Did you change your mind about it?
@@andrewwood6285 it was probably because same sex is still not approved by the church. Ie: God.
Stay on the path. ❤️
So I had said it was about chasity. That if I entered in to a sexual relationship as a heterosexual or same sex attraction, God still would not want that for me. I'd still not be married.
Elder holland is so good, God bless him for his dedication and love for us all. ❤
I was told for an unmarried heterosexual couple it was different, I still disagree.
@@joanneralphs217 thanks
The hard part is that if you're gay you'll never be able to have sex or have any sexually outlet of any kind their entire lives. That's brutal.
Well said.
How does this affect Charlie Bird and his legally married husband? Does the two men’s legal marriage meet the standard of chastity?
If it does then when will the church announce a policy change that recognizes same sex marriage?
I love and value our single members- they are amazing and so wonderful i really value the sacrifices they are making. Bless them.
There are some differences for my lgbt children
If my child mentions in confidence to their friend at church that they are attracted to someone of their same gender- what would the response be? Would it be the same response to someone who is attracted to someone of the opposite gender?
Is anyone praying that my lgbt kid finds someone they can love and be attracted to? Or are they praying my kid will change?
Is anyone trying by to set my kid up with someone they would be attracted to? Or are they wanting to set them up knowing they wont be attracted to them- but hoping they can just muscle through that?
If they did go on a date and not hold hands or kiss- with someone of their same gender how would we respond? Would we feel the same way as we do about our hetero single friends? What about if they hold hands? Kiss?
Is it really the same?
After this life are we telling are hetero friends they will have to fundamentally change who they are attracted to and who their whole souls are oriented to?
There are couples in our church- great couples who our hetero single people can look to and imagine their future relationship may be like- do our gay friends have that?
Is it really the same?
I love the law of chastity. It has been a huge blessing in my life.
Let’s recognize it is not the same.
How is it so different? I have a friend in his late 50s who never married. Always faithful. He has a physical disability. No wife, no children, no temple sealing, lonely every night . Why is it different? Of course, each person is unique . But the sacrifice, the pain do not belong to one particular group. I hope your kid finds peace and purpose in his life and that their faith in Christ supports them in their challenges.
Add to that single men and women with no disability who never marry, but remain chaste, no different. Still the longing for a family, the feelings of being left out and alone. If people, straight, gay, bi, or those who want to become transgender, stay chaste, they can be partake freely of the blessings that come from being chaste. I see no reason why they can't lean on each other for support because the conversation turns from it being a 'sexual' problem, to one of doing their best to stay chaste.
@@curlytigga7583I can really testify of that personally because I am a chronically ill and thus severely debilitated person who is being kept entirely from a social life by my health issues. I am 36 and have tried to reach out through the mutual dating app (cause it's all I can do in my situation) and I have had guys stop talking to me as soon as they learn I have health struggles. I am not able to live as impressively or attractively in any way as normal and healthy women my age. I am SO lonely and have been so lonely for SO LONG that I can't function well on a daily basis anymore, and I am legitimately starting to fear for my sanity. Being homosexual is not the only issue that can bar someone from being treated normally and with the same respect as other church members (cause I have on SEVERAL occasions been harshly judged for being sick) or that can bar a person from the prospect of finding an eternal companion. I do wish too that we could all come together more and realize how our struggles are similar so we can help each other rather than constantly trying to decide whose problems are harder and deserve more attention. God cares about us all equally, we should care about each other with more equality too. 💛 Also I don't say any of this with ignorance about homosexual church members bc I have a sister who is gay and struggling. I've heard her thoughts and I know how deep her pain is. But I wish sometimes that she could see how deep mine is and support me as well. Instead she always tells me that despite my severe trials I don't have as much reason to feel discouraged about marriage as she does. She is well tho, and beautiful, and wealthy, and popular with guys and girls of all ages. She has much more opportunity for everything than I do-even just helpful distractions-and yet she thinks her pain is greater than mine. But really, we aren't so different in our struggles. Hopefully someday she can see that so we can support each other. 💛
What does chaste mean? Zero orgasms...?@@curlytigga7583
Any gay individual, couple or family is more than welcome to sit with me and my kiddos on Sunday. The gospel is clear to me on this matter.
AMEN!!
When your feelings and thoughts are not in line with the teachings and principles of the gospel of Jesus Christ then you know you have been deceived and need to repent is that simple,align yourself with the teachings and principles of the gospel of Jesus Christ and be saved in his name ,we all fall at some point in our life everyone goes through it and we need to make the right adjustment and correct that mistake we made through the teachings and principles of the Gospel of Jesus Christ for he is the way the truth and the life ,thats my take on it and Thankyou to the Apostle of God for teaching us the truth for our salvation ❤❤
I’m not clear here. If the gay person remains chaste, but dates and marries a same sex person, which is now recognized by law, would they still be considered chaste? Or, does chastity in marriage only apply to heterosexual couples? Thoughts?
Chastity includes reserving the powers of procreation for bringing children into the world within the bounds of a marriage between a man and a woman, and for the expression of love within that marriage. Anything else rapidly steps away from the sacred nature of these powers, and into the territory of lust and depravity. Note that these can also occur within a heterosexual marriage, when sexual relations are either non-consensual, violent or degrading. In other words, when they are not built on a foundation of love and to protect the union, mostly for the protection of children. It can't be over-emphasised, that raising the next generation of children correctly is the single greatest responsibility and opportunity of the human race.
The church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints does not perform marriages of homosexual couples because it does not recognize this as the type of marriage that God recognizes. This is just one of many examples of how God’s law diverges from the laws of “this world.” I don’t see Elder Holland’s answer as “dodging the question” (like many other commenters here). He was recognizing his audience was primarily long-time members of the LDS church, who should not need an explanation of God’s law (see Proclamation to the World: The Family), but also trying to be sensitive to the fact that same-sex attraction is not something that will go away in this life. So, to more succinctly answer your question: We consider any type of sexual relationship outside of heterosexual marriage to be “unchaste”. This does not mean that we shun or exclude those who choose to live this way, any more than we shun or exclude those who choose to smoke cigarettes or drink coffee, or cheat on their taxes, or lie on college applications, etc. One way we can do better to show love to our LGBTQ brothers and sisters is to not keep reminding them of their sins - we all have them!
This was my thought too. His words seem to only apply to homosexual youth who aren't thinking about marriage yet. The sealing ceremony is only available to those in a heterosexual relationship. His answer was an attempt at equality and tolerance but it very much falls short of addressing the core of people's concerns. What is a homosexual's place in a church with heterosexual marriage as it's crowning ordinance? And for that matter what is the place of anyone who abstains from heterosexual marriage? The LDS church loses people because relationship with Jesus and relationship with spouse and family share the pedestal.
The answer is Jesus; He is our sanctification and reward. Until the LDSaints stops mistakenly insisting all sincere relationships with Christ include eternal marriage relationships between man and woman they will continue to lose people. Jesus is the bridegroom of our souls as related in scripture.
Dating is engaging in romantic behavior, so yes, the law of chastity would apply there too. Dating someone is a behavior, not just a thought.
It’s pretty clear. Read: “The Family; A Proclamation to the World” by Gordon B. Hinckley.
If you still don’t get it after that, you’re not going to get it. 🤷♂️
So as long as they wait until marriage it’s ok? They can hold hands and kiss on BYU’s campus?
Anyone else feel like LGBT issues are a specifically large issue specifically within the LDS church? Lots of broken shelves because of this.
No. I feel like the church’s stance is pretty reasonable and that we are not the only ones.
Well...They are more heated issues but no more or less important than the other standards set forth by Heavenly Father. People make them bigger by forgetting what is required. Trust me, I wish it were easier.
bc the rainbow is a religion, it's in conflict with God
Yes, it is crazy everywhere. Not necessarily from the 12 but local communites.
"Time is running out." - President Russell M. Nelson, a phrase never said before in General Conference. The work is hastening. The advesary is hard at work trying to derail the elect from fulfilling their true calling and following the covenant path because he has little time left as well.
LOVE. THIS. MAN.
He says nothing about whether it is okay to be gay in the church or not. So if a gay person stays chaste until their gay marriage, they are then entitled to all of the blessings of every other chaste married couple?
You get eternal blessings from gay marriage the same way that you get drunk from virgin cocktails, or healthy from eating vegan meat.
@@anthonyshannon7559 I am not sure what you mean by this. Is it sarcasm?
@@krislarabee7902 No its not possible for a gay person to stay chaste in the church only until their gay marriage because there is no gay marriage in the Church only hetrosexual marriages are allowed.
@@krislarabee7902I would ignore the other guys comment as it is a bit disrespectful. I’ll put it in a different way. You will not receive the same blessings because holland was talking about gods law. Not the legal systems law. The reason is that marriage isn’t only about loving your partner but also the intimacy that comes with it and the ability to create life. That’s why it is a sin to act on those desires as they do break the law of chastity.
Question, in the church temple recommend questions question seven states: Do you support, affiliate with, or agree with any group or individual whose teachings are contrary to or oppose those accepted by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Wouldn't acting on a behaviour which is not heterosexual, even just something as simple as a date, be contrary to the teachings of the Church since we know that marriage is between a man and a woman only? And wouldn't that potentially keep you from the temple, what about supporting the LGBTQ+ community? As I'm sure some may want to be a part of this community in order to feel that they "fit in"