@ tbf our ghost was being cracked more and more by either the traveler or the witness as we progressed. Honestly though the witness is a hard counter to like every chaos god so honestly yeah I think the Witness would do quite well in that universe. I think the vex would as well
This is kinda overkill. The Witness enacting the final shape would be an outerversal feat, considering it encompassed both the physical and ascendant planes which are infinite and stack on top of each other infinitely. Basically infinity to the power of infinity. Theres nothing in Warhammer with this level of power. And even without the traveler its implied that the witness can just kill all life but it would take too long and cause too much unnecessary suffering so it opted to calcify existence itself as a quicker way to end the chaos that is life. Just to add a little context to how insane the Witness's power is, it won in every single other timeline. The vex who can create 6 dimensional constructs and have a network that spans infinite amount of timelines, calculated that the only way to survive the Witness was to either leave the Destiny universe altogether or join it in hopes of being preserved.
I think it's really weird that these youtube channels are making vs warhammer videos now. Warhammer isn't dragon ball z it's not meant for power scaling it's meantg just for having fun with armies on a table and stuff. Anyways that's my take
@@DirkNowitskii-x3g You're half right. The beings in this universe are notorious for their over-the-top power scaling. A single space marine is more than a match for a Spartan from Halo for example. So it's actually pretty conducive to these power scaling videos
@@ek5268 Well, it doesnt make sense to compare warhammer to a universe with over the top god stuff. Makes more sense to compare it to another sci fi verse like star wars
The witness taking all things in the galaxy would effectively make them a hive mind, no fear of war, death, betrayal or lust. The chaos gods would starve as only gods can. What is a god if no one believes anything anymore
Still a God, the thing with the chaos gods is that they are not really gods as we understand but concepts given shape by mortal perception of reality and the warp
Yeah but the gods of chaos are formed by amalgamations of similar thoughts and emotions. They exist because of the people within the material plane. So the final shape would cause them to eventually die of as there are no more emotions or thoughts
@@killclip6449true but the chaos gods would only exist in thought. The Witness’ Final Shape would prevent any change, mutation, or physical presence of Chaos. The Chaos gods would be unsatiated and unfulfilled since there would be no way to actually act on the emotions or phenomena that Chaos represents.
excpet thay that isnt a foreign concept to destiny the hive gods as well as the worm gods and even nezarec work very similar where they are bound and embody certain concepts like akka turning truths into lies just by speaking them or savathun being able to be brought back into the physical world from her throne world sooner through great acts of cunning since she's the hive god of cunning and lies and the same applies to xivu the hive god of war @@eduardoantoniomartinezmoli8191
Destiny defies powerscaling with other settings. This is largely because the moment you introduce paracausal power on the scale that it exists in Destiny, you HAVE to have either a direct counter to that paracausal power or nullify it in order to have any real contest.
It's mostly the Winnower, Final Shape Vex, and The Witness. Guardians don't remotely compare to these three beings, beating the last one needed the help of The Traveler to win.
There are a lot of ways to nullify that power, maybe nothing from warhammer can do it but places like DC, where a fucking character can walk out of the comic panel could easily. Someone like Mordru, would have no challege soloing the witness.
@micahbernard2532 Proving exactly what I said, a direct counter. 4th wall nonsense and meta stuff also makes powerscaling basically impossible, not to mention toonforce ridiculousness.
Bungie definitely know how to make lore seem ridiculously more op then in game. Witness being an arguable outerversal being inside the traveler, other bosses and raid bosses being able to destroy universes and are actually MFTL++
And let's not forget our guardian being at the very least capable of glassing the entire surface of Mars if they stopped holding back and didn't care about leaving shit intact for other teams to come and clean up afterwards, lightbearers range from stronger than average nigh-immortal warriors to walking galaxy killers
Its also important to note that the witness only becomes physical, and therefor vulnerable to the light, when it fuses with the light. In lightfall when the traveler hit the witness with all the power it holds, the witness was completely unaffected. Once it fuses with the traveler's light, It became possible to physically harm it, even if it took the full strength of one of the universe's two primordial gods and the willingness of the dissenting voices within it to rend it apart. before entering the traveler, the witness was genuinely unkillable. EVEN BY THE LIGHT.
Another thing too with the Witness is that to even *weaken* it requires very specific circumstances. Idk how anyone would figure out it's weakness if we didn't have Dissenting Souls within the Witness speak to us & give us information. There's also the Witness alters/ritual site in the Pale Heart that only exist because the Traveler manifest's memories of those inside it (thanks to the Witness), it requires a ridiculous amount of unified effort in all sorts of fields & things to happen, essentially alot of luck. Also 11:32 I'm unsure of this, because in Season of the Deep, Sloane (a Guardian) was on a gas giant that the Witness took, & she was becoming Taken thanks to Xivu, a servant of the Witness. Although she didn't become Taken, she was able to hold back it's corruption
It’s possibly in theory for a Guardian to be taken, but each time it’s been close the Traveler also personally steps in and basically self-destructs their Ghost. And in the case of Chaos Demons, they’re just aspects of the God so the Witness would have to be able to take a whole Chaos God to take a demon.
@@Buster-McTunderSloane being partially Taken is complicated. Sloane was only part Taken because she infected herself on purpose to listen in on the the Taken's "radio" so she could better avoid them. Not because an entity directly tried to Take her.
The core issue with anyone trying to fight the Witness in any universe is that it can only be killed under very specific circumstances. Not only does it take the pure energy of the Traveller at the heart of its power, focusing its energy into a single point, something that only a god could achieve. But simply attacking the Witness with the weapon yeilds nothing, you need to enter into the darkness itslelf and destroy the statues which represent its minds, something only possible within the traveller after the Witness alterred it, and needing mastery of darkness specifically, no equivalent power would work. Put simply, it doesn't matter how powerful someone is, they cannot kill the Witness without those specific conditions, and you can't imprison something that strong for long. Mara Sov and Savathûn are probably the next tier down from the Witness, they were considerred worthy desciples by it, and the Traveller even recognised Savathûn as a better protector than the guardians, the two of them are the only characters capeable of destroying pyramid ships, with Savathûn having killed a Desciple and imprisonned the first desciple. And it took both of them just to keep the Witness from escaping to give the guardians a shot at defeating it. The Witness' defeat was a miracle a combination of the power of twelve god killers, two gods, and one capital G God, along with aspects of the Witness itself. There is nothing that cam stop the Witness because to defeat it requires so many unreplicateable factors.
You're forgetting reality warpers, basically any god level entity from the DC universe would with ease take the witness down, because it is subject to rules, and they are above simple "rules" anyone who can reality warp could easily kill the witness, because they are not subject to concepts like "light and dark" they can create whatever they want
@micahbernard2532 Except the Darkness and the Light are paracausal, that makes them exempt from the rules of the universe, it's why the time-travelling vex have never been able to defeat the guardians. The light and the darkness are the elements that create reality and are above it, the same way the vex can't make the guardians never exist, a reality warper couldn't unmake the Witness.
@micahbernard2532 If that's how you choose to interpret it, but the light and darkness operrate on a level above the universe, reality warpers effect the universe itself, rather than the sphere above it, mostly because universes with reality warpers typically don't have a sphere above, that being the case, we can't know for sure whether they could effect the light and dark or not, but there's nothing to indicate they can, and since paracausal entites are stated to defy powers similar to reality alterration, I believe reality warping wouldn't work on them. It could certainly become an everlasting stalemate given the Witness likely wouldn't be able to do much against a reality warper either, but they wouldn't be able to destroy it.
Here’s the funny thing about a potential Warhammer/Destiny mashup: Destiny’s “Season of The Witch” showed that it’s actually relatively easy to become a “God”, or at least a Hive “God”… Just know the right magics, have a bunch of Worms on hand, pick a domain that’s appropriate for yourself, and BOOM; You can start collecting your tithes and work towards making your own throne world. If Hive Magics and The Sword Logic made their way into ANY Warhammer setting, The Chaos Gods are going to quickly find their “Great Game” becoming a massively multiplayer fiasco.
I really hate this because it’s a huge misunderstanding of what happened in that season. In fact it makes the real hive gods even more impressive because while Eris makes it look like she just showed up said “I’m a god” and everyone died she really over exerted herself and nearly killed herself and Ahsa to do it. The hive gods needed something to hold their power which is why they had their worms and other stuff but Eris only had herself and ahsa and it is CONSTANTLY said that whole season that if Eris doesn’t get strong enough soon ahsa wont be able to hold that much power for long and will die killing herself and likely Eris too. And if we’re saying that it was still too fast for Eris to ascend that high let’s not forget that and ENTIRE ARMY OF GODKILLER did nothing but constant slaughter tithed to her and her alone and directly for MONTHS even savathun was trying to help her giving her a lot of power she had sitting around. So yeah narratively it looks like Eris just showed up but it was a massive gamble and was assisted heavily by savathun.
@ Hmmm… That would actually help the whole thing fit better in Warhammer then, wouldn’t it? Imagine it: Scores of wannabe gods conducting the rites in an attempt to fast-track their way to godhood, only to find out they how VORACIOUS their upcoming divinity _really is_ to complete and maintain.
@@jacksonduncan142on top of that, every hive needs personal tithes so as to continue their existence. The guardians do not, meaning 100% of their tithes went to Eris. Pair this with the fact that The Guardian was one of the many tithing to her means not only would you have the average Godkillers working to make you as powerful as possible, you would also have the being who had Killed Crota, Oryx, became the Hero of the Red War, killed a Light Empowered Savathune, and killed Rhulk. If anyone is a master of death, it would be the guardian. Hell, in the season prior, wasn’t Xivu Arath trying to entice the Guardian into becoming the Hive God of Death, as compared to Eris who became Vengance?
The Witness actually *could* take guardians, they're just highly resistant to it. It is a long and drawn out process. Commander Sloane, one of the npcs in Destiny 2, was revealed to be partially taken during Season of the Deep. It got worse as time progressed. It acts like a corruption, only slowed because of their strong connection to the light through their ghosts. It's unknown what will happen to Sloane, but it is likely that she will continue to become more taken, seeing as the taken exist even after the Witness' own death.
@@WarTurtle-tv3gh Until he reads into the finer details of what that entails… Don’t forget, Nurgle is also a god of _rebirth,_ something The Final Shape would explicitly erase the possibility of in a universal scale.
@@WarTurtle-tv3ghthe final shape calcifies every being in the universe, there would be no one left to believe in the gods and they would cease to exist
On the front of “witness solos 40k Khorne even more pissed than usual.” I think it would cause a lot of damage the ruinous powers, the warp as a concept, and many groups in general. Imagine warboss gazgul getting taken levels of damage. But if the witnesses comes with a few friends like Rhulk, Nezzarec, oryx, and Xivu then things would get out of hand real fast
Khorne and Xivu Arath (Pre-Season of the Witch) getting into a scrap would quickly turn into a positive feedback loop of mutual empowerment that would last until either one of them is struck down, or local space/time collapses under the strain of their accumulating power. Hell, even AFTER Season of the Witch, a war against Khorne might just supercharge Xivu enough for her to be able to build a NEW throne world from scratch.
Now The Witness leaving us alone as it went to the traveler wasn't necessarily that it wanted to see our pain but of the pure fact it saw every one of us as nothing but ants to it and not worth the time nor the effort
@@SpaceElvisInc I mean the wipe mechanic of its fight in the Raid is literally it achieving the Final Shape, so for such a historic throw it actually got really fuckkng close lol
I think the scaling factor that best represents the witness in the 40k universe is how the 3 hive gods which are basically the equivalent of the chaos gods are so far beneath it that it sends a babysitter to look after 1 and almost completely ignores another
Eh, frankly the hive gods are more like greater Demons, or Demon princes. They are still organic beeings, very very powerfull, but still at the end of the day mortal. God is more a title for them. Even Savathun agrees that they are not really Gods.
@@centimanj8916 I mean yeah they’re mortal. But it’s more “mortal”. They can be killed but without some crazy power difference or the ability to warp the universe itself you don’t stand a chance to kill them once let alone a second time when they have access to actual omnipotent level god powers(the cannon level of power a hive god has in their throne world when not being challenged by an equal level of will). Plus at the very least xivu hit 40k god status for a bit after becoming one with the concept of war until she got kicked out of her throne
The 3 hive gods aren't even a drop in the bucket compared to the chaos gods. I don't think all of the destiny only fans (or warhammer only fans) understand that the chaos gods are on the same level as the winnower/gardener in the destiny universe. The reason the chaos gods don't "win" in their universe is because to them, winning is the continuation of all of this pointless conflict where there is no true winner. The 40k galaxy in warhammer is one of an infinite number of galaxies the chaos gods play in, and the universe that holds the 40k galaxy is just one of the universes that the chaos gods play in. The whole thing is just a game to them, the witness has nothing on them.
@@gamingoverlord8854 the Chaos gods are not even in the same scope as the winnower/gardener, they are a spec of dust compared to those two. They don't dictate the laws of the universe, they didn't create anything at the start, hell they aren't even they apex in their own place, they are just the warp shaped around the mortal's consciousness. The winnower and gardener dictated and made it all, the ascendant realm, the laws of The Game, hell they are closer to being abrahamic deities in power than anything Warhammer even has
I mean the only reason it didnt one shot us was the traveler. Lucky us. Also Oryx got the ability to take from the deep. Aka the darkness/Winnower itself
Oryx did not learn the ability from the Winnower, It was from the Witness after Oryx kill Akka. The Witness was the original master of the Taken as Savathun said in Witch Queen.
The witness didn’t give Oryx the ability to take. That was a separate unknown entity, most likely the winnower. If you read the conversation Oryx had with the entity it talks nothing like the witness.
@ he actually didn’t lmao. At least not knowingly. The Witness is the reason the hive came into being but the only two hive gods we know directly served the witness were savathun before she betrayed them and killed Nezerac, and Sivu Arath who immediately dipped out after she was cut off from her throne world. Oryx was just doing his own thing which just so happened to benefit the witness’s plan
This is just kind of a nitpick, but I think it’s important to clarify that chaos/warp stuff isn’t paracausal. Paracausality isn’t just magic. Paracausal power exists completely outside of the universe and reality, and is thus able to exert influence over it. The warp meanwhile is still intrinsically linked with the physical universe, they are two sides of the same coin. Since the warp still is constrained by the power of the physical universe, it can’t be called paracausal. The chaos gods are still very much physical beings within the warp, and the witness would have zero issue removing them from existence.
To be more specific, light and dark are energies that transcend the concept of "cause and effect." Hence the name "paracausal." You have fire with no fuel or source, electric currents with no conductors, gravity with no mass, ice with no cold, and soul energy itself in strand. It provides effects that lack any sort of cause. So things that could perhaps traditionally resist something like electric shocks or burns suddenly wouldn't be able to because they are really resisting the cause of what's happening, not the effect.
Theoretically The Emperor of man has a chaos god forming in his image, one of pure light. The major chaos gods could not stop The Witness, but this new chaos god definitely could. The faith in the emperor is what is creating this god, much like slaanesh was created from the depravity of the eldar. But.. all theory, currently at least.
@@heyj64 Hmm, there is a possibility. Though there are two factors: 1. Will emperor see a witness as a threat to humanity and imperium, no matter the ideas on the table? Because you see, for the whole history of the imperium and emperor's crusades, he made a lot of fun memories about all the separatists and xenos he purged along the way UwU 2. Though speculation, but if he's still as power hungry as before his technical death, he, in fact, will NEVER share even a fraction of galactic control with any entity akin to god
The light being referred to in the 40k verse is completely different from Destiny. Yes both the darkness and light of destiny are physically bright and dark, but they are also fundamental laws. Think ying yang in terms of their powers and keep in mind that they are the building blocks of reality. Life and death, mind/soul, the physical world, and of course light and dark itself.
There was no interference by the gardener and winnower. They to our knowledge watch over everything. We won because we freed the traveller and it was empowering us giving us a chance to hurt it. In the raid we free it and that’s our opportunity. After it’s fully freed it gives us the blade to sever the minds from the witness.
@@MitchellTheMitch assuming he’s referring to the light sword we get in the ritual site and excision. Both times it was a key part in hurting then killing the witness
Warhammer fans are always talking about how OP their setting is, but most enemy factions and characters can sweep the verse, with factions like the vex, hive, and the black fleet having been around for billions and billions of years longer than even the chaos gods. And then of course there’s our guardian that’s beaten all of them.
The hive are weak now and a species like the necrons could probably give the vex a run for their money since the necrons also can simulate basically anything. And also the vex cannot simulate like half the 40k universe since basically everything is magical
@ magic isn’t the same as paracausality. And I wasn’t talking about the current hive, was referring to the hive in their prime. Necron simulations are absolutely nothing compared to vex simulations, which are completely indistinguishable from reality.
@kogden8110 that is true about the vex simulations, although I think if we can talk about the hive in their prime the we can talk about the necrons in their prime as well and during that time they killed countless unfathomably powerful gods that could have wiped out the vex individually, so I still believe necrons in their prime could beat them. And yes I know magic isn't paracausality and that paracausality is specific to the destiny universe and I am a total destiny glazer myself but I am also more of a Warhammer glazer so I believe all magic should count as paracausality for balancing reasons if these universes were ever to do battle, but that's just my opinion. Also also the vex can't just not simulate paracausality, they cannot simulate anything that doesn't conform to the laws of physics, so anything anomalous or "magical"
@ the vex literally invaded oryx’s throne world, who is also literally a god, and weren’t able to be beaten until oryx took their leader. Also I don’t know why versus would need to be “balanced”.
Destiny's term for gods is a bit different than Warhammer's, a god in destiny is just something with Power that people worship, and oryx although strong, is not on the level of a ctan or an old one which the necrons annihilated, and yes it doesn't need to be balanced but that doesn't matter anyway because the vex cannot simulate anything magical not just paracausality
Loved that you brought up the taken but you forgot the Dread boys. Kind of like how you compared guardians to light demons you could say tormentors are dark demons, unable to be corrupted and impossible to kill
The Witness could Take Guardians, though... The only thing that saved Sloane was the Leviathan hiding on Titan when the moon was Taken. So, she was only partially Taken, but retained her mind.
I think you’re overestimating the Witness on the chaos front. One of the key things we learn over the course of the final shape is that the Witness isn’t nearly as perfect as it thinks it is. It’s obsessive, in denial and fuelled by rage. While it would definitely oppose the warp and the chaos gods initially, I think it would be very susceptible to corruption. Maybe not by any particular god by certainly by the warp itself. I could see it becoming a chaos god in its own right as the sheer psychic influence it and the warp leave on eachother kind of fast track the way a chaos gods is created. The chaos god of order might sound contradictory but the Witness is a perfect example of how an obsession with order can still lead to chaos.
I dont think Chaos can just corrupt the witness because Chaos doesn't corrupt by itself. The entities of Chaos would need to, and the witness is so singular to its goals that it would be able to withstand and fight back. Chaos is the immaterial, its a world and a mind at once. The witness is mind over matter incarnate. With its mind it can shape and reshape the universe. It can only do so in bits and pieces, and needs the traveler to do so all in one go. But that's more than Chaos can do, seeing as Chaos demons can barely exist
I've had many conversations with a friend about the Witness's power and its absurd ranking compared to even POTENTIALLY powerful entities, as in those that had INFINITE power but were philosophically bound to never use them, which would be the Veil/Winnower and Traveler/Gardener. We know from a lore book that the Witness has been near-death before, but we have no basis on how that happened. As such, the only weaknesses we have come from paracausal power, Darkness and Light specifically. During the raid, we damaged it through overwhelming Light. During the campaign, we were able to commune with the Darkness using specifically made shrines within the Pale Heart. Without the Veil or the Traveler, and thus no Pale Heart in any sense, there IS no getting into its headspace easily, and the Light we use to cut its pieces (visualized by a sword), void. Taking is the least of everyone's concerns. It once utterly annihilated a civilization by simply entering their hivemind and cutting and absorbing its members (Noesis). Taking, Necrosis (the Thorn stuff), Nightmare energy, and that mental stuff... most things would die. The reason why it beat the actual Gods of Destiny is because it not only has the power, but the will to use them. When discussing its power, the example I have with the Witness was my counter to the idea that the Flood could beat the Witness, as anything that would enter its headspace would simply be absorbed without the Light to repel/cut. Without having watched this video, I simply said "if the Flood could beat 40K, the Witness could too". Now I have seen it. Unfortunately, even Guardians can be Taken. Sloane was Taken partially through a ritual, an unconventional way to Take. She was able to resist... but if she couldn't, she'd have fallen to a mere Hive Goddess. We have no other examples of Guardians being Taken, other than the idea that they can't through conventional means because Blight-rifts required "living" hosts and, according to the Winnower, we aren't "living" but "robbed from our death". Those demons better not be undead. Regardless, the Witness may be able to deceive others into becoming Taken if it didn't just want to use the literal catch-all of Resonance (the stand-in for pure Darkness). Nightmare energy may render those not easy deceived into babbling creatures easily susceptible to simply standing there and letting the Witness do whatever. It's... ABSURDLY strong and it's no wonder it upended worlds for eons before coming to a halt simply because it had plans to use the universe's cheat room to 1-tap reality instead of just... DOING it itself (an endless struggle but still). Here? Without a Traveler? With no way to easily complete the Final Shape? That thing will be worse than when we fought it. Great video, gives me more insight into 40K in the process.
Since the Witness is an amalgamation of the souls of an entire species combined into a single being, wouldn’t that make it similar to the Emperor? Since he’s the amalgamation of the Shaman souls? That should give the Witness a pretty substantial Warp presence. I also don’t think the Witness would just lash out randomly when bereft of purpose. It would likely make destroying Chaos its goal, due to the parallels between the chaos of the Light and Traveler and the chaos of the Warp.
Not entirely, especially as the Warp isn't as "paracausal" as the Light and Dark have been described through the franchise. Warp itself's still bound with reality while paracausality is straight up "removed existence from reality and ability to exert influence over it. As for the amalgamation part, every Shaman had willingly contributed to the goal while the Witness is more an amalgamation of its entire species, both willing and unwilling (with the unwilling having been the only reason why Guardians had been able to start unmaking the Witness at all) It doesn't rly denote whether the shaman or average civilian of the Witness' species were stronger, or that numbers mattered. I'd say its something along the lines of "Its a familiar concept, however very different means, methods and results" Tho the Witness would 100% plan and fight for destroying Chaos completely.
Note on the hatred of the witness. The witness normally is not that hateful or spiteful. Most other civilizations it encounters which it ends, the civilizations are systematically dismantled swiftly so that they don’t suffer anymore. Its hatred is directed not just towards the traveler but mostly to civilizations touched by it. Like Rhulk its first disciple, whose world was touched by the light it was the intrusive thought that wormed its way and slowly but sure morphed his way of thinking until Rhulk inverted the star engine of its people and destroyed his entire civilization. Same way with humanity. It wasn’t swift, it brought terror and calamity to us touched by light who “leave only suffering in their wake”.
the final shape was born of the idea of at least one faction of it's origin species the goal was to stop all suffering in the universe, the final shape was it's plan to achieve it
I think the Cabal was a nod to 40k, their bulky armor, world breaker war machines. Even Calus could be compared to a corrupted primarch. On that note, the Witness can make powerful disciples, each requiring a specific task in order to hurt them. Each having heart beats as powerful as nukes. Even lesser Takens can be immune to attacks. Also the Witness CAN take Guardian as we saw lesser Guardian like Deputy Commander Salon almost being taken had the Leviathan not bonded with her. 2nd, when the Witness takes a planet, it could spy on ALL of that planet's history.
In "XXI: The Sword Logic" it specifically described sword logic and arguably paracausality as a whole is beyond magic "Causal closure". Therefore you could argue that the Witnesse's paracausality power would just simply overpower 40k's magic, but I don't know much about 40K.
@@Aceofspdess4777that and the fact that Fate is a Causal aspect used by Tzcheench (it literally defines its existence as a “god of destiny and luck”). Paracausality overpowers Fate itself, therefore Guardians and the Witness overpower Tzcheench.
@@kanewilson8624 This depends on your definition of Fate. in Destiny, fate is pretty much defined by the Vexs prediciton engines; without the Light they can predict the future with 100% accuracy. But since the Vex cant simulate the Light, they cant predict any events involving it, which wrecks the entire system. So no, the Light isnt inherently Fatebreaking, as defined in 40K, it just cant be predictet by one faction in Destiny whos entire stick is otherwise knowing the Future. Also, the Sword Logic is literally Witness propaganda. it contains just enough truth to be functional, but the Hives understanding is repeatetly shown to be flawed and driven more by religious zeal then actuall logic.
@centimanj8916 The vex predicts fate and can change fate but can not define fate. Fate is a destined outcome due to causality. Paracausality is either a separate system or beyond, depending on the definition of the prefix para- you are using.
Насчет taken. Вспоминаем, что существуют одержимые вексы, а также - одержимые стражи (например, страж титан со спутника Титан, которую мы встречали в сезоне глубины)
i feel like billions of minds in one entity fueled by seething rage and hate would leave a pretty massive imprint in the warp having pretty drastic implications for the witness
Ok next, let’s go with the 2 weakest factions of both universes: Neomuna VS Tau Empire! Before you immediately say Tau, consider this, Neomuna has self-repairing Nanites built into every building, and if the war got very desperate they would likely make way more than 2 Cloudstriders. But would the Tau just have to weather them through attrition for the next 10 years?
@@vidicuss3933another thing to consider for Neomuna, the Cloudstriders Nanites have Vex components built into them, giving them intrinsic access to the Vex Network and basically the ability to teleport through it. Their Skyboards also allow them to fly and they are strong enough to smash through walls, they could use them like missles at ships.
@@jakespacepiratee3740 please stop glazing the tau have already survived a lengthy amount of time as an empire in the 40k universe if you think a few miniature droppods into ships are enough you’re horribly mistaken
I feel like The Witness would be an absolute UNIT in the 40K galaxy, at least until the whole “dissenting voices” weakness is discovered. From there, it’ll be Psychic shenanigans that win the day, something that Warhammer 40K has WAY more of. Of course that would also probably mean that more “Anti-Psyker” factions like The Imperium are going to have to either swallow their pride and play ball or risk annihilation… And I don’t trust them to make the right decision in that regard.
Psykers arent paracasual though. Their power is pulling the warp into real space. The light bends reality to create power. It breaks physics to bring its powers into reality. It has the same effect on everything else.
I feel like it would basically be like the witness being a hyperconcentrated ball of psychers. Just trying to contact it would lead to you being instantly overridden
Two possibilities, 2- some factions research and find its weaknesses, then steal paracausal artifacts to reverse engineer the tech built around it. 2- the witness instantly recognizes the psychic feedback between belief and gods and kills off all physical anchors to their power so they starve. The mf ain't stupid exactly, just super arrogant and unaware of itself in weird ways. But also probably both would happen, as well as maybe new gods being birthed from the world shattering amounts of psychic power getting thrown around.
Thing is you can know the weakness of the Witness and spread it all over the galaxy but not one mf can do anything about it without mastering the darkness which is a paracasual power than only the witness would have access to in 40k
@@theyincorporated5711 I mean The Warp gets pretty damn close… It’s basically an equivalent to Destiny’s Darkness, except it’s as Chaotic as The Witness accuses The Light of being.
I feel like the Tenno from Warframe can survive Warhammer 40k. Here's why (spoilers if you're new to Warframe): The Warframes themselves on their own are nothing more than just destructible flesh golems. However, the Tenno can control them with their magical powers, and even directly assist them. The Warframes themselves are also known to be multi-purpose one-man armies, each with their own strength and magical powers harnessable by the Tenno. The Tenno are juvenile survivors of a colony ship's failed attempt at accessing an alternate dimension called the Void. A god-like entity known as "The Indifference" offered them a chance to return to reality, and they accepted it. The Indifference then fulfilled the bargain's end and not only gave them the power of the Void to defend themselves, but also removed the very concept of death from the Tenno. Other than that, I think the only other Warframe faction that can survive 40k is the Sentients. They are human-made machines that have the ability to quickly adapt to any attacks, even magical ones. They can also self-replicate as long as they're not exposed to the Void, which is a good thing since 40k has the Warp instead.
you just explained the tenno, not how they would survive 40k. i dont doubt they could SURVIVE, but they would not have a fun time doing so. for one the necrons existing is a problem, and the warp daemon possession is another threat, even a psyker can just blast them into the warp and at that point they are screeewwweedd. even if they cant die, there are much worse fates in 40k
@@Lucifer-bo3ol thing is, there are warframes that give you complete damage and status immunity. Most(if not all) warframes have that. if you include loadouts like companions and stuff then warframes can probably solo the 40k verse. As of now the big bad of the warframe verse is basically a higher entitiy than 40ks chaosgods, the lord of the void (manwitihinthewall), but the tenno is also basically its herald, so as long as the lord of the void and the void is alive, the tenno cant ever die, because there is always a copy of the tenno stored in the void(you could consider him still dying, but he technically still lives.) (you should look into it yourself, im not 100% on the warframe lore either, but tenno should be able to solo most of the verse)
@@Lucifer-bo3ol The Indifference made countless paradoxical clones of the Tenno, since the very concept of death has been erased. Manage to kill one, and it will send a clone to reality as replacement. The Tenno can't be corrupted by Chaos, since the deal with the Indifference is akin to a deal with a Chaos God (They're the Daemon Princes of the Indifference). Mods are canon. The Warframes will take hold of any weapons of Imperial, heretics and xenos alike and modify them to suit their needs.
@@somerandomdude7785 Agree that they can survive. They can have a good mercenary service to the tau and imprerium, also they can introduce themselves as humans, +40 to opinion with imperium)) Though I don't agree with you on corruptibility. You cannot know what will happen with tenno in the warp, warp and void energies are very different if not in possibilities, but for sure in structure. And presence of one doesn't nullify the other. And talking about the mods, some serious field testing needed for them to create mods for status effects in wh40k galaxy, because there are a lot of similar effects, but also a lot of different ones too. And, you know, warp is a different beast of a status effect too
I LOVE the Witness, and it deserved so much better in terms of buildup, the writers of destiny sadly instead of giving the necessary buildup shat out Lightfall :c
@AurelieAris I know, it's such a bummer. I'll never forget the end of witch queen as the Witness floats through his ship then the camera zooms in and he turns around. So good. Finding out the hive and Savathun were tricked all the way back on fundament was incredible. Then Savathun betrayed him and hid the veil and killed Nezarec. Ugh the lore in Destiny is just so good.
@@beeman4266 Unfortunately, The Witness was made generic in The Final Shape and doesn't really compare to The Man In The Wall. Of course, he wasn't much to begin with, beside his design. That one guy still has one of the weirdest, mind-boggling introductions I've seen.
no, the witness freezes everything in a moment. Some frozen have lust (Slaneesh), some frozen are sick (Nurgle), some frozen are in a state of intrigue(tzeentch but severely underpowered), hate/anger/rage (khorne), etc etc. The chaos gods would be damaged, but in no way defeated
@@gamingoverlord8854the witness doesn’t freeze everything in the traditional sense, he calcifies them. If he did that there would be no emotion or beliefs left as they are literally a statue made of some sort of stone 🤦♂️
I think the Warhammer universe has one trick up it's sleeve against the Witness with the Emperor. It has been stated in the Horus Heresy novels that the Emperor has the ability to obliterate souls. If the Emperor gave himself to darkness like the Gardian did in The Final Shape, I think he could do some serious damage to it.
The emperor is a copout answer imo. Depending on what books your reading and who the author is, the Emperor could be an all powerful omnipresent being or a complete fraud.
Lesser beings from the darkness (hive) can attack and destroy souls. And it's not only "gave himself to darkness" but the memory of the Iconoclasm was created both by the Traveler and dissident minds to allow the guardian to confront the witness.
Keep in mind that the witness was also Created with the help of the Winnower. I am making a separately comment for this. Because it’s kinda its own thing. It made Titan(Jupiter’s moon) stretch and bend and then let it go. To give you a picture of what he did to Titan, is take a rubber band and stretch it out then bring it back to the middle. Then repeat until you pull it as far as you can the let go, let the rubber band snap back together. That’s what the witness did to Titan.
Yeah witness would win. Its a literal reality altering being. He can freeze shit in time and no one could break out yet doesn. We was about to freeze existence entirely and was in the verge of succeeding. Bro had to tear apart the guardian and his ghost to have enough time to work
People tend to underestimate how overpowered the destiny universe is, sure it might be smaller scale than warhammer but the destructive power the forces of light and darkness have would make Vulkan harder than the Burj Khalifa
Good vid, though I cannot stress enough how I don't agree about your guardians as daemons point. In wh40k, daemons are not creatures, they don't have souls and real free will. They are all small parts of respectable chaos god. Daemons are uncorruptible because they're not really separate from their god thing, though they can be weakened or tricked and so on. The closest to the guardian phenomena would be daemon princehood. They are, as guardians too, gifted with certain powers, though they technically loose free will, in some sence. They become puppets, a lot of their thoughts are not their own. And even then, uncorruptibility is very questionable. I would argue change of allegience is possible, if the grip of original chaos god is weak enough. And in case of guardians and witness, they're not warp entities. And warp energy is not really a simple thing. Witness is strong enough to resist, I'm sure. Though I would argue that just being near warp rifts will affect him in some capacity. And imo guardians, maybe from individual to individual, but they can be corrupted. Because they can think and feel, they're not warp-resistant and they have their selves. Daemons are parts of a god, guardians are not, therefore there is a core to be corrupted
Oh, the Witness would definitely be affectet by the Warp. The Warp is psychic energy, emotions, pain. The exact same thing as the Darkness in Destiny. The Warp, and Darkness energy are almost literally the same concept. The same Darkness that was used to fuse the Witness together in the first place. When transplantet into the 40K universe the Wtiness would essentially be fromed out off Warp energy, so everything that affects the Warp could in theory affect the Witness.
@@centimanj8916the very big difference that makes your point null and void is that The Darkness in Destiny is Paracausal, and The Warp in 40k is not, meaning The Warp can't do anything to The Witness
@@aspserpent well, no really. The Warp itself has little to none causality. It especially shows in the bullcrap like "once the Chaos god is born, it always was, is and will be". Ther Warp actually has no physics laws in it, not understandable to us, at least. The causality, for example, is already broken by the simple fact that in 40k time travel exists. But even then, I would not think that the Warp and Darkness are the same types of energy. So I'm not as radical as centimanj, but I'm most certain that the Warp, in fact, can do something to the Witness. Even, perhaps, influence and corrupt, as it seems that the Witness is sentient, so there is definetly something to influence and corrupt. But I'm no scolar, so I cannot give estimates in required exposure.
@@r0bert649 no, really. the Warp is part of the world in Warhammer 40k. It operates within the confines of causality, no matter how much it bends or outright defies the rules as we understand them. The forces of Darkness and Light exist outside those confines. The Warp is not comparable to either.
The problem here is that Destiny throws the term paracausal around without adhering to what it actually means. Paracausal, per real world definition, means cause following effect, or the effect of an action preceding the action itself. In Destiny it's used simply as "a Wizard did it". Patacausal in Destiny is so vaguely defined, that im hesitant to use it in any crosssetting comparsion. Its the same as the term Gods; it means such different things in both settings that it only sparks confusion @aspserpent
For people who don’t quite understand the witnesses power. Guardians had to wound it 3 times before being able to kill it. 1st in the campaign where you barely scratch it, 2nd in the raid where you make it flee and 3rd in the excision mission where you make him cower behind a ‘impenetrable wall’ which almost cost us our ghost’s light
I like this take, but you're missing a bit of the Witness' motivation and backstory. The Traveler didn't abandon that first race, they wanted the Traveler to act like the god they thought it was and give them a purpose in the universe. When it didn't, they became spiteful and became the Witness to give the universe the purpose they wanted so badly. The Witness wouldn't fall apart in a world without the Traveler because the Traveler is ultimately just a means to enact the final shape, even if it hates it conceptually as well. It would likely end up taking the MCU Thanos approach of "reordering" world one by one and instilling itself as the grand ruler it thinks it deserves to be.
Can I just say? I HATE how Bungie never truly showed us the giant climactic battle we all yearned for. Hell…Call of duty has had better final showdown cutscenes… HALO had better cutscenes man…
If you play the raid then excision that’s a surprisingly good ending. We sever its connection to the light in the raid forcing it to retreat from its monolith. Excision shows the power of the allies we formed over the past few years joining with us now that the witness is hurt beyond repair and actively trying to flee. I just wish the ghost scene was a bit better. Like we finally got to see the traveler do something for us since we quite literally just saved it
I think you might be underselling Big E. In his God Emperor state upon the Golden Throne i think he could, if he mustered all of his psychic might, enter the Witness' ritual chamber where it was created. A memory of it manifest by the Emperor's influence. There he might be able to destroy each of the Witness' minds as the Guardians did, given how each mind was already a broken and dissenting voice within the greater whole, begging for an end to their spiteful existance.
@BrazarB I don't think the Light is a hard requirement, just a path of least resistance. And the ritual chamber is very much within the Witness' mind, this is also true in TFS, where the Emperor's powers are at their best. I don't know that Big E would 100% beat the Witness, but i think God Emperor has a surprisingly good shot at it, like if you threw them into a match 100 times i think that Big E would come out with at least a couple dozen Ws. Especially since every single mind within the Witness is a dissenter looking for a way to be freed. And then there's the whole Dark King thing, if GW wanted to explore that further... But i won't speculate on the Dark King's abilities based on nothing.
@@Spike2276 The characters do say in the final shape campaign in the last few missions that the light is what is needed to destroy the witness while darkness is to access its mind
@@Nannowatts19482it was explained at the beginning of the campaign that Darkness was needed to shape things into existence, and that Light was needed to form those shapes into reality.
@@Spike2276yeah nah the light is very much a hard requirement here the only reason the guardians could kill the witness is because they mastered light AND dark Darkness is needed to access the mind now this the emperor might do but without the light a power the emperor has no access to he'd lose because while the emperor is a super powerful psychic the Darkness is mental power incarnate and the Witness is the closest being to pure darkness we've seen in Destiny
Is the Warp paracausal? If yes, then 40K has a fighting chance. If no, then the Witness wins hands down. Unless a ghost somehow manages to find its way to the Golden Throne....
Well paracausality is a thing canonically specific to the destiny universe and cannot ever exist in any other universe but for sake of balancing i think the warp probably is paracausal
Yoooo imagine characters in 40k becoming guardians omg, it'd absolutely shake the entire continuity cause to answer your question (no) none of the forces or beings are outside any established physics.
@@deinekes9 Paracausal (without cause or effect) is a fancy words for reality bending or space magic, but you need Light specifically to destroy the Witness
Not really since the warp still exist and is connected in a way to the main warhammer universe while paracausality is something that exists entirely outside of the universe itself
@Ace-Intervention You also needed the dark to beat the witness as well. Light and dark are paracausal. The light is physically, and the dark is mental, but they both ascend the laws of the universe.
9:18 ok so paracausality is more then just “magic” a paracausal force is a force that exists outside of the confines of the universe itself but it can still affect the universe plus even guardians and other paracausal beings can be taken several have in fact beings like riven of a thousand voices or slone
No, the Light fundamentally is power over the physical, while the Darkness is power over the mind & soul. It's just that in Warhammer souls=>chaos and the physical=>order, while in Destiny it's the other way around. If brought to the Destiny universe, the Chaos gods would wield the Darkness, while the C'tan would wield the Light.
@ idk I‘m not too much into Destiny, but doesn’t the light give free will? and thus chaos? Isn‘t the whole goal of the witness to remove any chaotic aspects from the universe?
@@Kolibri1313yes and no, the witness does seek to remove chaos, but the light isn’t the source, light is physical aspects of reality like energy and matter, the darkness is metaphysical aspects of reality, like emotion or consciousness, that’s why the witness needs both light and darkness, it reshapes the physical world after its own mental image of what it should be
@Kolibri1313 the Light doesn't directly grant free will. The chaos in the universe created by the Light allows the will granted by the Darkness to living minds the proverbial breathing room required to choose freely. The Light creates this chaos by making physical reality diverge from what conscious minds think reality ought to be or expect it to be. It's very similar to a principle in real world physics that just because you think your theory is very clever doesn't mean it's true. Nor is the universe obligated to follow any of the so called 'Laws of Physics' we have come up with to describe it. The Destiny universe just takes this principle one step further and makes it so that if you think you understand the universe too well, the universe actively tries to change the rules.
@@Kolibri1313chaos doesn’t really depend of free will but instead it depends on its corruption. Taking things to the extreme. The light used by the traveler is meant to represent the right to exist and to determine one’s own course. The witness wanted to take that away because it saw that as causing suffering. So most likely the traveler would try to free the warp of the influence of the chaos gods, while the witness would try to either control or destroy them.
kinda wrong on the whole witness thing. it WANTED to have the final shape happen. it didnt want the guardian to suffer, it actually wanted the guardian to join it because they thought of themselves of saviors of reality, they thought they were saving all of reality by ending it in a perfect stillness, no pain, no agony, just pure stillness. it didnt kill the guardian because it didnt view them as a threat, because we werent. we couldnt even touch it because of how powerful it was
It partially wants us to suffer. More accurately, it wants species blessed by the Light to suffer. Eido has pointed out that the Black Fleet uses different combat tactics based on whether that civilization has been visited by the Traveler or not. For those who has like the Eliksni and Humanity, the Witness uses less efficient methods like combat troops, gravitational weapons that create tsunami, nanoweapons that can strip a person down to the bones in less than a second,... all of these to lengthen the victim's suffering. However, to those not blessed by the Light, they were snuffed out before they even realised that they were being invaded. If I remember correctly, the Pyramid fleet can just destroy a star system by encircling it and crushing the entire thing similar to the box torture machine in the Loki TV series if that makes sense. Compared to what the Witness has done to countless worlds blessed by the Light, the ones that didn't got it easy.
@@longps9528 Then maybe op should have presented it as their own personal opinion instead of just saying he was wrong. Considering both arent fact and extremely subjective in regards to the Witness' motivations and emotions, its pretty pretentious to come out the gate swinging with "you're wrong lol, anyways heres MY subjective take on it"
The Witness is unbeatable. There is nothing that scales to them. As with most beings of that nature, The Witness was their own undoing. Everything that allowed Guardians to defeat them was provided by The Witness, Guardians and the Traveler merely took advantage.
While I'll agree with witness being unbeatable. It literally took the traveler and veil to grant the power to the guardian to harmonically combine light and darkness to kill the witness. Guardians have a change because a paracausal being verses a paracausal being can kill each other. Normal factors cannot
sloan was a guardian and got partially taken and the awoken are able to be taken as well. the awoken arent quite guardians but they are similar due to how they were born and having ties to both the light and darkness.
11:40 the Witness can absolutely Take Guardians. It just takes way, WAY more effort. Oryx only encountered us twice and was getting dangerously close to Taking us until we countered him. Mara Sov got so good at the concept that she can partially Take us already and she isn't even close to the power the Witness can muster. I think the only reason it didn't try to was because it was both focused elsewhere and reveling in our collective torment.
I mean, Xivu could do quite well in 40k. I’m not acquainted well with 40k, this is literally my first introduction to it. I do know a lot of Hive lore though. Xivu took the knight morph (I think, my memory on terms is stinky), and she grows powerful through conflict whether winning or losing. Warhammer is a world that is ridiculously full of war. It stands to reason that her power would skyrocket to impossible levels because of the war everywhere, which is exactly what makes her strong.
She is literally Khorn but doesn’t have any of his weaknesses lol. Out of the sibling trio Savathun would struggle a bit but I wouldn’t say she stands no chance soloing the verse. Oryx and Xivu would devour 40k
Are we counting sloane as taken? because during season of the deep we see that she is partically taken and is fighring off its corruption. We also see her loose control for a second and nearly attack Zavala in a cutscene.
You just don’t wanna believe he can. You wanna believe there’s gotta be someone or something in 40k that could beat the Witness but that’s just not that case
If the witness was also able to rope in its subservient species (the hive, scorn, vex, fallen, etc) i dont see any faction beating their combined might. The are mostly mechanical with the little organic matter they do possess able to corrupt other organic matter. And the hve gods would likely be power boosted as the hive as a species derive power from their logic. Xivu Arath the god of war would surely become one of the most powerful beings in the galaxy. Savathun able to feed off of and gain power from the concept of trickery would be an interesting parallel to Tzeentch i think.
I will say there would be no way for the Witness to take tyrannids because there is no will to take. That would be one of them the few things the witness would actually have to take
The intrinsic will to consume or move or whatever stops the Tyranids from all just collapsing where they are is enough will to Take. Unless I'm fundamentally misunderstanding the Tyranids and every last one of them is nothing but a literal flesh puppet controlled remotely by a single entity, Tyranids could absolutely be taken.
The Witness doesn't require as much as chaos gods' deliberately dark symbolic rituals and specific numerical-astronomical concurrences to manifest powers in realspace by the chaos followers Not to mention that in newest lore, Necron techs, anti-Chaos warp gods (from Star Child, Gork & Mork, T'auva, Ynnead avatar, Tyranids' Shadow in The Warp, etc) are already complicating Great Game into not much of a game, but of actual existential metaphysical warfare within The Warp I think The Warp itself is already beyond the monopolies/oligopolies of the chaos gods, though every warp pantheons' factions regardless of Chaos, Order or Anything-in-between/Neutral are brewing, as there's technically already 3 CANDIDATES FOR 5TH CHAOS GOD (lol): Malice (at least until GW figured out on how they can evade copyright problems of their own), Vashtorr (from Arks of Omen) and Dark King (from The End and The Death which might be a dark side to ever-growing Star Child) I do think The Warp aren't intangible either, as Space Marines 2' way later missions against thousand sons' chaos marines had showcased so Final Shape might have able to grow Psychically within The Warp, provided if the wills are already stronger than Chaos Undivided greater daemons, while able to disrupt things in Realspace as the entire race group of Full-powered C'tan (which The Witness already does by distorting and reshaping causality, as even each of full C'tan individual need to stay as embodiment of an element/concept materially, though C'tan able to devour and being fueled by souls in War in Heaven also ironically, somewhat goes a bit close to chaos gods as Tulpa of their own, albeit more psychic)
@АрунАрун-н9о Yeah. Xivu Arath would stomp everyone because she wins all her wars by Attrition and she's just like Khorne, where she becomes stronger from Bloodshed, regardless of which side sheds it... The only way Xivu Arath was beaten was because she was banned from the Pantheon's Discord by Eris Morn after she stole Savathûn's Admin Privileges XD
I would say that he could beat Warhammer all the way to the Chaos Gods, though they are invinsible so long as there is life in the universe, but the Final Shape should be able to correct that, though he has killed temporal, conceptual beings before, don’t think on the CGs level.
Edit: forgive me for the length I tried to fit as much of my evidence as I could based off of what is off the top of my head that is common knowledge in the Destiny lore. My guy can flick his wrist and dispose of an entire squadron of fighters without looking. What makes you think that the warhammer universe can even come close. He was created by the Winnower the embodiment of death, decay, and darkness. Not to mention his millions of followers. However, and I want people to read this. Imma make 2 scenarios. Scenario 1, the witness has control over the traveler. The witness could just think everything into the final shape and call it a day. But to make it more fair imma say this is scenario 2 the Witness doesn’t have control over the traveler. So they would have a better chance. But the Witness specializes in deception in ways that would make the forces of Chaos shiver. Humanity’s devotion to the emperor would be the very thing that fucks them. Because the witness would feed on that and turn probably the most loyal to the emperor against each other in the name of…let’s say the witness promised them that he would make sure the Emperor was an unstoppable and an immortal being. Not like he kinda isn’t already. But that besides the point. Conclusion anything that the Warhammer universe tried to fight in the Destiny universe would be a massive fucking L for reasons that would result in YT putting a word limit in comments. The only thing that the warhammer universe could fight are the fallen and the cabal. The cabal would give space marines a run for their money but The imperium would eventually pull through on those 2 fronts I will most defiantly say. But the Hive feed off of war so they get stronger the longer they fight, example Xivu Arath this bitch consumed an entire planet with war because she tricker the cabal into fighting one another then fighting the hive. The moment Xivu Arath entered into the warhammer universe she would instantly be behind stopping. Due to the amount of war that goes on. I would say more but this is all I can fit in a chat. So take it or leave it as you see fit.
Here's a fun video idea, The Wraith from Stargate Atlantis (When they were a fully unified fighting force) vs any of the factions in warhammer. Although in space combat they may be beaten against a faction like the Imperium, I think the Wraiths food source being humanity could make for an interesting fight. Also I think something to not be underestimated is the difference in FTL. Wraith would not be limited by using the Warp and could navigate the galaxy with relative ease.
Its complicated, but I dont see the Witness losing to the chaos since they use the “chaos” energy as Order and their Law over both the Infinite Ascendant realms and physical universe, Big E would have a bit of problem dealing with this but honestly Big E could win if he knows how to trump the Final Shape
Theres a few things in this video i disagree with, and I think my interpretation could lead to a 40k victory here 1. I belive the Tyranids would be paracausal. People tend to forget that amongst all the countless chittering masses that Tyranid bioforms can be made to be very powerful psykers. The tyranid hivemind is almost the polar opposite of what the Witness is, one massive, infinitely hungry entity presiding over trillions of bodies. It has a psychic presence so powerful that wherever its fleets go, paracausal effects begin to break down under the weight of it's presence. I feel that anything that can function similarly to a darkness zone has to be paracausal. 2. The main weakness of the Witness is the fact that despite it being a gestalt mind, it has dissenting voices inside if itself that wish for its downfall. Preying on dissenting voices is what chaos DOES, it's their entire modus operandi. I dlfind it easy to believe that the manipulation of Slaanesh or Tzeentch could grow those dissenting voices until the witness was at war with itself, opening up the possibility for a champion to possibly defeat it. 3. Tzeentch is the Chaos god of Hope, Change, and Free Will. Conceptually, as he is so diametrically opposed to the Witness, I think he would be able to do SOMETHING against it, perhaps take up some if the roles that the traveler had to in Destiny's story, if with vastly different methods. He is also a master of manipulation, and given how opposite ti the witness he is, i think he would have no trouble using the Witness' rage and pettiness to get him into whatever position he needed in order to enact whatever plan could harm him.
Aight so the Tyranids are like a biological equivalent to the Vex, that'd be an interesting conflict. But paracausality means to defy causal mechanisms, I.E the established energetic rules of any system. Essentially infinite fuel typa thing. True tho that the witness is ironically gonna be weak af to psychic manipulation if those beings can get past all its walls. And very interesting to see a god in cannon already embodies the travelers purpose.
1. The Tyranids are not paracausal. Thats not how that works. To be Paracausal you need either the Light or the Dark. The warp is magic, not paracausal. 2. The only reason that the dissenting voices were of any help were due to them being made material through the power of the traveler. Its mind cannot be invaded otherwise, as ther is no mind to invade. He is a being made of energy that comes from nothing. THeres is no brain to "get into" 3. Sure, he may try to oppose him, but he physically cannot do anything to harm him without the light. I don't think the Witness could really hurt the chaos gods either though, as they are really just concepts made material through the thoughts of every living being in the warhammer universe. The only way to defeat them is to kill every being that believes in them. Which would take an immessurably long time. Buuuuut, we also know that the witness is BILLIONS of years old. Unimaginably older than any chaos god is currently
I honestly dont think the witness would go out to immediately overtly disrupt the chaos gods. I think it would attempt to sway them by lying about its goals and muddying what it is, like it did throughout all of destiny history, and attempt to leverage that to change these gods or other higher entities into warped disciples. It would try to seem benevolent and willing to sow chaos, like it tried to appeal to calus, the guardians, hive, rhulk, etc. only to wholesale turn its back and return to its true purpose overtly when the cards are down. It did exactly that to everyone who interacted with it, so whos to say it wont try to do so again? Overtly attacking them from the start just doesnt seem like the witness' MO to me.
Have to remember that the books of sorrow are an unreliable narrator. It’s what oryx knew. And oryx didn’t know about the witness like savathun did. He wasn’t even aware that the hive were tricked while pre guardian savathun was
Someday I want to see you do a video about Ratchet and Clank in the Warhammer 40k universe. Plus I want to see Space Marine’s reaction to seeing a fellow marine get hit with a Sheepinator and I want to see Tech Priests react to Ratchet and Clank’s weapons and gadgets. Plus I want to see a interaction between Dr Neferious and the Necrons
Sonic the Hedgehog vs Warhammer 40k Edit PS I want to make this really interesting so let’s say the Chaos Emeralds come with him but Sonic only has 1 with him the other 6 are scattered across the Warhammer Universe I’m honestly interested on what the other factions would do if they got a Chaos Emerald Edit Eggman vs Warhammer 40k Edit actually maybe Mobius/Sonic’s Earth should just appear in Warhammer 40k
The witness is just the president from the Lego movie that wants to freeze everyone in place. Very stupid villain for something that is supposed to be super threatening and life ending
An oversimplification, but even then how is a universe where life doesn't end but simply stops in place and means nothing for the rest of eternity not unbelievably horrifying? Just because a similar plot point was used in a kids movie doesn't make the concept itself childish or, as you put it, stupid.
The Witness and Final Shape are referenced as early as the Black Garden in D1, it was well known by a large contingent of the community that they were going to be the final, final boss.
Just because you oversimplified it doesn't make it scary. The witness wanted to turn the entire universe like that because it truly believed the final Shape was salvation.
The Witness only lost inside a place that didn't even exist yet physically & it's memories of the past being used against them.
and we had to fight it 3 times
12 godkillers, the vanguard, 3 armies + Savathun and Mara sov (godly beings). The Witness was an absolute unit.
@@gaiofattos2and the traveler actively giving us supercharging pools of light, and often
@@austinwilson7373 And that, the traveler empowered our ghost so much in the final blow that the ghost died.
@ tbf our ghost was being cracked more and more by either the traveler or the witness as we progressed. Honestly though the witness is a hard counter to like every chaos god so honestly yeah I think the Witness would do quite well in that universe. I think the vex would as well
I dont care how strong the 40K universe is, aint no space marines getting through encounter 4
Most real shit I've read haha, that encounter is too much 😆
Bet. If you can an Astartes would far surpass you.
Going through Verity first-time is like living hell.
Tiberos would just rip and tear through it
This is kinda overkill. The Witness enacting the final shape would be an outerversal feat, considering it encompassed both the physical and ascendant planes which are infinite and stack on top of each other infinitely. Basically infinity to the power of infinity. Theres nothing in Warhammer with this level of power. And even without the traveler its implied that the witness can just kill all life but it would take too long and cause too much unnecessary suffering so it opted to calcify existence itself as a quicker way to end the chaos that is life.
Just to add a little context to how insane the Witness's power is, it won in every single other timeline. The vex who can create 6 dimensional constructs and have a network that spans infinite amount of timelines, calculated that the only way to survive the Witness was to either leave the Destiny universe altogether or join it in hopes of being preserved.
I think it's really weird that these youtube channels are making vs warhammer videos now. Warhammer isn't dragon ball z it's not meant for power scaling it's meantg just for having fun with armies on a table and stuff. Anyways that's my take
@@DirkNowitskii-x3g You're half right. The beings in this universe are notorious for their over-the-top power scaling. A single space marine is more than a match for a Spartan from Halo for example. So it's actually pretty conducive to these power scaling videos
@@ek5268 Well, it doesnt make sense to compare warhammer to a universe with over the top god stuff. Makes more sense to compare it to another sci fi verse like star wars
@@DirkNowitskii-x3g I disagree, considering Warhammer literally has gods that routinely wreak havoc on reality and the universe. It's pretty fitting
Curse of Osiris showed a timeline where the Vex broke the forces of Light and Darkness, ultimately being the only things left in existence.
I always liked this concept, since the Witness HATES chaos
And suffering because of slaanesh.
The Witness is an ally of Humanity
The Witness is the concept the God Emperor of Humanity always wanted to archive
The witness taking all things in the galaxy would effectively make them a hive mind, no fear of war, death, betrayal or lust. The chaos gods would starve as only gods can. What is a god if no one believes anything anymore
Still a God, the thing with the chaos gods is that they are not really gods as we understand but concepts given shape by mortal perception of reality and the warp
Yeah but the gods of chaos are formed by amalgamations of similar thoughts and emotions. They exist because of the people within the material plane. So the final shape would cause them to eventually die of as there are no more emotions or thoughts
@@eduardoantoniomartinezmoli8191yes but it’s stated countless times that the gods are only as strong as how many people believe in them
@@killclip6449true but the chaos gods would only exist in thought. The Witness’ Final Shape would prevent any change, mutation, or physical presence of Chaos.
The Chaos gods would be unsatiated and unfulfilled since there would be no way to actually act on the emotions or phenomena that Chaos represents.
excpet thay that isnt a foreign concept to destiny the hive gods as well as the worm gods and even nezarec work very similar where they are bound and embody certain concepts like akka turning truths into lies just by speaking them or savathun being able to be brought back into the physical world from her throne world sooner through great acts of cunning since she's the hive god of cunning and lies and the same applies to xivu the hive god of war
@@eduardoantoniomartinezmoli8191
Destiny defies powerscaling with other settings. This is largely because the moment you introduce paracausal power on the scale that it exists in Destiny, you HAVE to have either a direct counter to that paracausal power or nullify it in order to have any real contest.
It's mostly the Winnower, Final Shape Vex, and The Witness. Guardians don't remotely compare to these three beings, beating the last one needed the help of The Traveler to win.
@Spino-hx2mr Can't forget the wacky ontological weapon nonsense the Vex are able to specifically achieve in the Vault of Glass
There are a lot of ways to nullify that power, maybe nothing from warhammer can do it but places like DC, where a fucking character can walk out of the comic panel could easily. Someone like Mordru, would have no challege soloing the witness.
@micahbernard2532 Proving exactly what I said, a direct counter. 4th wall nonsense and meta stuff also makes powerscaling basically impossible, not to mention toonforce ridiculousness.
Bungie definitely know how to make lore seem ridiculously more op then in game. Witness being an arguable outerversal being inside the traveler, other bosses and raid bosses being able to destroy universes and are actually MFTL++
Your inability to get laid is Outerversal level.
And let's not forget our guardian being at the very least capable of glassing the entire surface of Mars if they stopped holding back and didn't care about leaving shit intact for other teams to come and clean up afterwards, lightbearers range from stronger than average nigh-immortal warriors to walking galaxy killers
Its also important to note that the witness only becomes physical, and therefor vulnerable to the light, when it fuses with the light. In lightfall when the traveler hit the witness with all the power it holds, the witness was completely unaffected. Once it fuses with the traveler's light, It became possible to physically harm it, even if it took the full strength of one of the universe's two primordial gods and the willingness of the dissenting voices within it to rend it apart.
before entering the traveler, the witness was genuinely unkillable. EVEN BY THE LIGHT.
The Witness is basically what happens if Slannesh was formed willingly by all the eldar
is funny cuz the witness was not all willingly, some were forced and later culled from the whole until the final shape
@@digunder14one do the only reasons we were even able to beat it.
Another thing too with the Witness is that to even *weaken* it requires very specific circumstances. Idk how anyone would figure out it's weakness if we didn't have Dissenting Souls within the Witness speak to us & give us information. There's also the Witness alters/ritual site in the Pale Heart that only exist because the Traveler manifest's memories of those inside it (thanks to the Witness), it requires a ridiculous amount of unified effort in all sorts of fields & things to happen, essentially alot of luck.
Also 11:32 I'm unsure of this, because in Season of the Deep, Sloane (a Guardian) was on a gas giant that the Witness took, & she was becoming Taken thanks to Xivu, a servant of the Witness. Although she didn't become Taken, she was able to hold back it's corruption
Titan, which was once Taken in Beyond Light, isn't a gas giant. It's a moon orbiting Saturn, the actual gas giant.
It’s possibly in theory for a Guardian to be taken, but each time it’s been close the Traveler also personally steps in and basically self-destructs their Ghost. And in the case of Chaos Demons, they’re just aspects of the God so the Witness would have to be able to take a whole Chaos God to take a demon.
@@Buster-McTunder, What about those Star Parasites, I think they are the constant of the universe and didn't want to be still.
@@Buster-McTunderSloane being partially Taken is complicated.
Sloane was only part Taken because she infected herself on purpose to listen in on the the Taken's "radio" so she could better avoid them.
Not because an entity directly tried to Take her.
@@taxablefur9653 In duality, the guardian could also be Taken by killing so many Taken.
The core issue with anyone trying to fight the Witness in any universe is that it can only be killed under very specific circumstances. Not only does it take the pure energy of the Traveller at the heart of its power, focusing its energy into a single point, something that only a god could achieve. But simply attacking the Witness with the weapon yeilds nothing, you need to enter into the darkness itslelf and destroy the statues which represent its minds, something only possible within the traveller after the Witness alterred it, and needing mastery of darkness specifically, no equivalent power would work. Put simply, it doesn't matter how powerful someone is, they cannot kill the Witness without those specific conditions, and you can't imprison something that strong for long. Mara Sov and Savathûn are probably the next tier down from the Witness, they were considerred worthy desciples by it, and the Traveller even recognised Savathûn as a better protector than the guardians, the two of them are the only characters capeable of destroying pyramid ships, with Savathûn having killed a Desciple and imprisonned the first desciple. And it took both of them just to keep the Witness from escaping to give the guardians a shot at defeating it. The Witness' defeat was a miracle a combination of the power of twelve god killers, two gods, and one capital G God, along with aspects of the Witness itself. There is nothing that cam stop the Witness because to defeat it requires so many unreplicateable factors.
You're forgetting reality warpers, basically any god level entity from the DC universe would with ease take the witness down, because it is subject to rules, and they are above simple "rules" anyone who can reality warp could easily kill the witness, because they are not subject to concepts like "light and dark" they can create whatever they want
@micahbernard2532 Except the Darkness and the Light are paracausal, that makes them exempt from the rules of the universe, it's why the time-travelling vex have never been able to defeat the guardians. The light and the darkness are the elements that create reality and are above it, the same way the vex can't make the guardians never exist, a reality warper couldn't unmake the Witness.
@@samaron8970 but they are laws within themselves, they simply override the preexisting laws.
@micahbernard2532 If that's how you choose to interpret it, but the light and darkness operrate on a level above the universe, reality warpers effect the universe itself, rather than the sphere above it, mostly because universes with reality warpers typically don't have a sphere above, that being the case, we can't know for sure whether they could effect the light and dark or not, but there's nothing to indicate they can, and since paracausal entites are stated to defy powers similar to reality alterration, I believe reality warping wouldn't work on them. It could certainly become an everlasting stalemate given the Witness likely wouldn't be able to do much against a reality warper either, but they wouldn't be able to destroy it.
@ reality warpers like dr Manhattan affect other fictions so I would say it still counts
Don't forget that if The Witness can't assimilate you at the moment, it can turn you into a statute to try again when it's even more powerful
Here’s the funny thing about a potential Warhammer/Destiny mashup: Destiny’s “Season of The Witch” showed that it’s actually relatively easy to become a “God”, or at least a Hive “God”… Just know the right magics, have a bunch of Worms on hand, pick a domain that’s appropriate for yourself, and BOOM; You can start collecting your tithes and work towards making your own throne world.
If Hive Magics and The Sword Logic made their way into ANY Warhammer setting, The Chaos Gods are going to quickly find their “Great Game” becoming a massively multiplayer fiasco.
I really hate this because it’s a huge misunderstanding of what happened in that season. In fact it makes the real hive gods even more impressive because while Eris makes it look like she just showed up said “I’m a god” and everyone died she really over exerted herself and nearly killed herself and Ahsa to do it. The hive gods needed something to hold their power which is why they had their worms and other stuff but Eris only had herself and ahsa and it is CONSTANTLY said that whole season that if Eris doesn’t get strong enough soon ahsa wont be able to hold that much power for long and will die killing herself and likely Eris too. And if we’re saying that it was still too fast for Eris to ascend that high let’s not forget that and ENTIRE ARMY OF GODKILLER did nothing but constant slaughter tithed to her and her alone and directly for MONTHS even savathun was trying to help her giving her a lot of power she had sitting around. So yeah narratively it looks like Eris just showed up but it was a massive gamble and was assisted heavily by savathun.
@
Hmmm…
That would actually help the whole thing fit better in Warhammer then, wouldn’t it?
Imagine it: Scores of wannabe gods conducting the rites in an attempt to fast-track their way to godhood, only to find out they how VORACIOUS their upcoming divinity _really is_ to complete and maintain.
@@jacksonduncan142on top of that, every hive needs personal tithes so as to continue their existence. The guardians do not, meaning 100% of their tithes went to Eris. Pair this with the fact that The Guardian was one of the many tithing to her means not only would you have the average Godkillers working to make you as powerful as possible, you would also have the being who had Killed Crota, Oryx, became the Hero of the Red War, killed a Light Empowered Savathune, and killed Rhulk. If anyone is a master of death, it would be the guardian.
Hell, in the season prior, wasn’t Xivu Arath trying to entice the Guardian into becoming the Hive God of Death, as compared to Eris who became Vengance?
@@jacksonduncan142Proper Hive gods are backed by their worms that derive power from concepts. Kind of like Chaos Gods.
Which would be a massive win for the Chaos Gods
Before watching: I think it could.
After watching: It could.
Damn, long video?
@mono6.052 Had to pause to take a dump, then went to sleep.
The Witness actually *could* take guardians, they're just highly resistant to it. It is a long and drawn out process. Commander Sloane, one of the npcs in Destiny 2, was revealed to be partially taken during Season of the Deep. It got worse as time progressed. It acts like a corruption, only slowed because of their strong connection to the light through their ghosts. It's unknown what will happen to Sloane, but it is likely that she will continue to become more taken, seeing as the taken exist even after the Witness' own death.
Tzeentch would despise the idea of the final shape
Nurgle would love it
@@WarTurtle-tv3gh
Until he reads into the finer details of what that entails…
Don’t forget, Nurgle is also a god of _rebirth,_ something The Final Shape would explicitly erase the possibility of in a universal scale.
@@WarTurtle-tv3ghthe final shape calcifies every being in the universe, there would be no one left to believe in the gods and they would cease to exist
"we will bring order to chaos" line would go insanely hard in warhammer
On the front of “witness solos 40k Khorne even more pissed than usual.” I think it would cause a lot of damage the ruinous powers, the warp as a concept, and many groups in general. Imagine warboss gazgul getting taken levels of damage. But if the witnesses comes with a few friends like Rhulk, Nezzarec, oryx, and Xivu then things would get out of hand real fast
Khorne and Xivu Arath (Pre-Season of the Witch) getting into a scrap would quickly turn into a positive feedback loop of mutual empowerment that would last until either one of them is struck down, or local space/time collapses under the strain of their accumulating power.
Hell, even AFTER Season of the Witch, a war against Khorne might just supercharge Xivu enough for her to be able to build a NEW throne world from scratch.
Nezarec would do a little trolling with the Chaos gods, my boi would love it
Now The Witness leaving us alone as it went to the traveler wasn't necessarily that it wanted to see our pain but of the pure fact it saw every one of us as nothing but ants to it and not worth the time nor the effort
Witness really threw for content huh
@@SpaceElvisInc I mean the wipe mechanic of its fight in the Raid is literally it achieving the Final Shape, so for such a historic throw it actually got really fuckkng close lol
@thegloriouskingkronk8422 throwing is throwing no matter how close you get.
@@SpaceElvisInchey it tried. The final stand in the raid, it is locking in too late
I think the scaling factor that best represents the witness in the 40k universe is how the 3 hive gods which are basically the equivalent of the chaos gods are so far beneath it that it sends a babysitter to look after 1 and almost completely ignores another
Eh, frankly the hive gods are more like greater Demons, or Demon princes. They are still organic beeings, very very powerfull, but still at the end of the day mortal.
God is more a title for them. Even Savathun agrees that they are not really Gods.
@@centimanj8916 I mean yeah they’re mortal. But it’s more “mortal”. They can be killed but without some crazy power difference or the ability to warp the universe itself you don’t stand a chance to kill them once let alone a second time when they have access to actual omnipotent level god powers(the cannon level of power a hive god has in their throne world when not being challenged by an equal level of will). Plus at the very least xivu hit 40k god status for a bit after becoming one with the concept of war until she got kicked out of her throne
The 3 hive gods aren't even a drop in the bucket compared to the chaos gods. I don't think all of the destiny only fans (or warhammer only fans) understand that the chaos gods are on the same level as the winnower/gardener in the destiny universe. The reason the chaos gods don't "win" in their universe is because to them, winning is the continuation of all of this pointless conflict where there is no true winner. The 40k galaxy in warhammer is one of an infinite number of galaxies the chaos gods play in, and the universe that holds the 40k galaxy is just one of the universes that the chaos gods play in. The whole thing is just a game to them, the witness has nothing on them.
@@gamingoverlord8854 the Chaos gods are not even in the same scope as the winnower/gardener, they are a spec of dust compared to those two. They don't dictate the laws of the universe, they didn't create anything at the start, hell they aren't even they apex in their own place, they are just the warp shaped around the mortal's consciousness. The winnower and gardener dictated and made it all, the ascendant realm, the laws of
The Game, hell they are closer to being abrahamic deities in power than anything Warhammer even has
@@anormalhumanhopefully8570
m.th-cam.com/video/hGJI4yiaXHw/w-d-xo.html
I mean the only reason it didnt one shot us was the traveler. Lucky us. Also Oryx got the ability to take from the deep. Aka the darkness/Winnower itself
Just remember that the Winnowed and the Witness are 2 different beings. The force of darkness is neutral at best and corruptive at worst.
From killing his worm. Unless they retconned that as well. Bungos writing has been getting worse over the years..
@@bannedmann4469 no he didnt kill his worm, he would die if it dies, he killed akka the worm god of secrets
@@bannedmann4469 he never killed his worm lmao most informed destiny hater
Oryx did not learn the ability from the Winnower, It was from the Witness after Oryx kill Akka. The Witness was the original master of the Taken as Savathun said in Witch Queen.
The witness didn’t give Oryx the ability to take. That was a separate unknown entity, most likely the winnower. If you read the conversation Oryx had with the entity it talks nothing like the witness.
Still prefer this Take.
Oryx should be a problem even for the Fitness.
Even if it wasn't the Witness who did that, he still served the Witness.
@ he actually didn’t lmao. At least not knowingly. The Witness is the reason the hive came into being but the only two hive gods we know directly served the witness were savathun before she betrayed them and killed Nezerac, and Sivu Arath who immediately dipped out after she was cut off from her throne world. Oryx was just doing his own thing which just so happened to benefit the witness’s plan
This is just kind of a nitpick, but I think it’s important to clarify that chaos/warp stuff isn’t paracausal. Paracausality isn’t just magic. Paracausal power exists completely outside of the universe and reality, and is thus able to exert influence over it. The warp meanwhile is still intrinsically linked with the physical universe, they are two sides of the same coin. Since the warp still is constrained by the power of the physical universe, it can’t be called paracausal. The chaos gods are still very much physical beings within the warp, and the witness would have zero issue removing them from existence.
To be more specific, light and dark are energies that transcend the concept of "cause and effect." Hence the name "paracausal." You have fire with no fuel or source, electric currents with no conductors, gravity with no mass, ice with no cold, and soul energy itself in strand. It provides effects that lack any sort of cause. So things that could perhaps traditionally resist something like electric shocks or burns suddenly wouldn't be able to because they are really resisting the cause of what's happening, not the effect.
Theoretically The Emperor of man has a chaos god forming in his image, one of pure light. The major chaos gods could not stop The Witness, but this new chaos god definitely could. The faith in the emperor is what is creating this god, much like slaanesh was created from the depravity of the eldar. But.. all theory, currently at least.
Provided this new god doesn't side with the Witness's idea of order...
Oh good one
@@heyj64 Hmm, there is a possibility. Though there are two factors:
1. Will emperor see a witness as a threat to humanity and imperium, no matter the ideas on the table? Because you see, for the whole history of the imperium and emperor's crusades, he made a lot of fun memories about all the separatists and xenos he purged along the way UwU
2. Though speculation, but if he's still as power hungry as before his technical death, he, in fact, will NEVER share even a fraction of galactic control with any entity akin to god
The light being referred to in the 40k verse is completely different from Destiny.
Yes both the darkness and light of destiny are physically bright and dark, but they are also fundamental laws. Think ying yang in terms of their powers and keep in mind that they are the building blocks of reality. Life and death, mind/soul, the physical world, and of course light and dark itself.
"Light" in Destiny doesn't mean actual light. It's simply the term used for the power that the Traveller utilizes.
We only won because we were given a weapon created by the Gardener herself
There was no interference by the gardener and winnower. They to our knowledge watch over everything. We won because we freed the traveller and it was empowering us giving us a chance to hurt it. In the raid we free it and that’s our opportunity. After it’s fully freed it gives us the blade to sever the minds from the witness.
That weapon being?
@@MitchellTheMitch assuming he’s referring to the light sword we get in the ritual site and excision. Both times it was a key part in hurting then killing the witness
The guardians themselves being paracausal + dissenters
And because we had mastery enough over the light and dark to be able to wade into the Witness' consciousness to be able to deal damage to it.
I mean yeah, just look at that thing, it's face alone is a mind shatteringly creepy thing
Warhammer fans are always talking about how OP their setting is, but most enemy factions and characters can sweep the verse, with factions like the vex, hive, and the black fleet having been around for billions and billions of years longer than even the chaos gods. And then of course there’s our guardian that’s beaten all of them.
The hive are weak now and a species like the necrons could probably give the vex a run for their money since the necrons also can simulate basically anything. And also the vex cannot simulate like half the 40k universe since basically everything is magical
@ magic isn’t the same as paracausality. And I wasn’t talking about the current hive, was referring to the hive in their prime. Necron simulations are absolutely nothing compared to vex simulations, which are completely indistinguishable from reality.
@kogden8110 that is true about the vex simulations, although I think if we can talk about the hive in their prime the we can talk about the necrons in their prime as well and during that time they killed countless unfathomably powerful gods that could have wiped out the vex individually, so I still believe necrons in their prime could beat them. And yes I know magic isn't paracausality and that paracausality is specific to the destiny universe and I am a total destiny glazer myself but I am also more of a Warhammer glazer so I believe all magic should count as paracausality for balancing reasons if these universes were ever to do battle, but that's just my opinion. Also also the vex can't just not simulate paracausality, they cannot simulate anything that doesn't conform to the laws of physics, so anything anomalous or "magical"
@ the vex literally invaded oryx’s throne world, who is also literally a god, and weren’t able to be beaten until oryx took their leader. Also I don’t know why versus would need to be “balanced”.
Destiny's term for gods is a bit different than Warhammer's, a god in destiny is just something with Power that people worship, and oryx although strong, is not on the level of a ctan or an old one which the necrons annihilated, and yes it doesn't need to be balanced but that doesn't matter anyway because the vex cannot simulate anything magical not just paracausality
Loved that you brought up the taken but you forgot the Dread boys. Kind of like how you compared guardians to light demons you could say tormentors are dark demons, unable to be corrupted and impossible to kill
Gaurdians and tormentors are not at all opposites
@ I would light and dark wise they are. If I was to put it in game terms I’d say tormentors and subjugators are the same as hive guardians
The witness when Trayzin appears and sics his entire library just to lock it away in it's own cell:
The Witness could Take Guardians, though... The only thing that saved Sloane was the Leviathan hiding on Titan when the moon was Taken. So, she was only partially Taken, but retained her mind.
techeuns can be taken as well. they arent quite the same as guardians but are paracausal due to how they were created.
I think you’re overestimating the Witness on the chaos front. One of the key things we learn over the course of the final shape is that the Witness isn’t nearly as perfect as it thinks it is. It’s obsessive, in denial and fuelled by rage. While it would definitely oppose the warp and the chaos gods initially, I think it would be very susceptible to corruption. Maybe not by any particular god by certainly by the warp itself.
I could see it becoming a chaos god in its own right as the sheer psychic influence it and the warp leave on eachother kind of fast track the way a chaos gods is created. The chaos god of order might sound contradictory but the Witness is a perfect example of how an obsession with order can still lead to chaos.
I dont think Chaos can just corrupt the witness because Chaos doesn't corrupt by itself. The entities of Chaos would need to, and the witness is so singular to its goals that it would be able to withstand and fight back. Chaos is the immaterial, its a world and a mind at once. The witness is mind over matter incarnate.
With its mind it can shape and reshape the universe. It can only do so in bits and pieces, and needs the traveler to do so all in one go. But that's more than Chaos can do, seeing as Chaos demons can barely exist
@@TheDarkMaster312 Ah I see. I'm not as versed in 40k lore as Destiny lore, it appears my understanding of Chaos/the warp was flawed.
I've had many conversations with a friend about the Witness's power and its absurd ranking compared to even POTENTIALLY powerful entities, as in those that had INFINITE power but were philosophically bound to never use them, which would be the Veil/Winnower and Traveler/Gardener. We know from a lore book that the Witness has been near-death before, but we have no basis on how that happened. As such, the only weaknesses we have come from paracausal power, Darkness and Light specifically. During the raid, we damaged it through overwhelming Light. During the campaign, we were able to commune with the Darkness using specifically made shrines within the Pale Heart. Without the Veil or the Traveler, and thus no Pale Heart in any sense, there IS no getting into its headspace easily, and the Light we use to cut its pieces (visualized by a sword), void.
Taking is the least of everyone's concerns. It once utterly annihilated a civilization by simply entering their hivemind and cutting and absorbing its members (Noesis). Taking, Necrosis (the Thorn stuff), Nightmare energy, and that mental stuff... most things would die. The reason why it beat the actual Gods of Destiny is because it not only has the power, but the will to use them. When discussing its power, the example I have with the Witness was my counter to the idea that the Flood could beat the Witness, as anything that would enter its headspace would simply be absorbed without the Light to repel/cut. Without having watched this video, I simply said "if the Flood could beat 40K, the Witness could too". Now I have seen it.
Unfortunately, even Guardians can be Taken. Sloane was Taken partially through a ritual, an unconventional way to Take. She was able to resist... but if she couldn't, she'd have fallen to a mere Hive Goddess. We have no other examples of Guardians being Taken, other than the idea that they can't through conventional means because Blight-rifts required "living" hosts and, according to the Winnower, we aren't "living" but "robbed from our death". Those demons better not be undead. Regardless, the Witness may be able to deceive others into becoming Taken if it didn't just want to use the literal catch-all of Resonance (the stand-in for pure Darkness). Nightmare energy may render those not easy deceived into babbling creatures easily susceptible to simply standing there and letting the Witness do whatever. It's... ABSURDLY strong and it's no wonder it upended worlds for eons before coming to a halt simply because it had plans to use the universe's cheat room to 1-tap reality instead of just... DOING it itself (an endless struggle but still). Here? Without a Traveler? With no way to easily complete the Final Shape? That thing will be worse than when we fought it.
Great video, gives me more insight into 40K in the process.
Since the Witness is an amalgamation of the souls of an entire species combined into a single being, wouldn’t that make it similar to the Emperor? Since he’s the amalgamation of the Shaman souls? That should give the Witness a pretty substantial Warp presence.
I also don’t think the Witness would just lash out randomly when bereft of purpose. It would likely make destroying Chaos its goal, due to the parallels between the chaos of the Light and Traveler and the chaos of the Warp.
Not entirely, especially as the Warp isn't as "paracausal" as the Light and Dark have been described through the franchise. Warp itself's still bound with reality while paracausality is straight up "removed existence from reality and ability to exert influence over it. As for the amalgamation part, every Shaman had willingly contributed to the goal while the Witness is more an amalgamation of its entire species, both willing and unwilling (with the unwilling having been the only reason why Guardians had been able to start unmaking the Witness at all)
It doesn't rly denote whether the shaman or average civilian of the Witness' species were stronger, or that numbers mattered.
I'd say its something along the lines of "Its a familiar concept, however very different means, methods and results"
Tho the Witness would 100% plan and fight for destroying Chaos completely.
Note on the hatred of the witness.
The witness normally is not that hateful or spiteful. Most other civilizations it encounters which it ends, the civilizations are systematically dismantled swiftly so that they don’t suffer anymore. Its hatred is directed not just towards the traveler but mostly to civilizations touched by it. Like Rhulk its first disciple, whose world was touched by the light it was the intrusive thought that wormed its way and slowly but sure morphed his way of thinking until Rhulk inverted the star engine of its people and destroyed his entire civilization. Same way with humanity. It wasn’t swift, it brought terror and calamity to us touched by light who “leave only suffering in their wake”.
the final shape was born of the idea of at least one faction of it's origin species the goal was to stop all suffering in the universe, the final shape was it's plan to achieve it
I think the Cabal was a nod to 40k, their bulky armor, world breaker war machines. Even Calus could be compared to a corrupted primarch.
On that note, the Witness can make powerful disciples, each requiring a specific task in order to hurt them. Each having heart beats as powerful as nukes. Even lesser Takens can be immune to attacks.
Also the Witness CAN take Guardian as we saw lesser Guardian like Deputy Commander Salon almost being taken had the Leviathan not bonded with her.
2nd, when the Witness takes a planet, it could spy on ALL of that planet's history.
In "XXI: The Sword Logic" it specifically described sword logic and arguably paracausality as a whole is beyond magic "Causal closure". Therefore you could argue that the Witnesse's paracausality power would just simply overpower 40k's magic, but I don't know much about 40K.
Also supported by "IX.X.I: Apocrypha" added in shadowkeep.
@@Aceofspdess4777that and the fact that Fate is a Causal aspect used by Tzcheench (it literally defines its existence as a “god of destiny and luck”). Paracausality overpowers Fate itself, therefore Guardians and the Witness overpower Tzcheench.
@@kanewilson8624 This depends on your definition of Fate. in Destiny, fate is pretty much defined by the Vexs prediciton engines; without the Light they can predict the future with 100% accuracy. But since the Vex cant simulate the Light, they cant predict any events involving it, which wrecks the entire system.
So no, the Light isnt inherently Fatebreaking, as defined in 40K, it just cant be predictet by one faction in Destiny whos entire stick is otherwise knowing the Future.
Also, the Sword Logic is literally Witness propaganda. it contains just enough truth to be functional, but the Hives understanding is repeatetly shown to be flawed and driven more by religious zeal then actuall logic.
@centimanj8916 The vex predicts fate and can change fate but can not define fate. Fate is a destined outcome due to causality. Paracausality is either a separate system or beyond, depending on the definition of the prefix para- you are using.
Насчет taken. Вспоминаем, что существуют одержимые вексы, а также - одержимые стражи (например, страж титан со спутника Титан, которую мы встречали в сезоне глубины)
i feel like billions of minds in one entity fueled by seething rage and hate would leave a pretty massive imprint in the warp having pretty drastic implications for the witness
The Witness is above the warp.
Ok next, let’s go with the 2 weakest factions of both universes: Neomuna VS Tau Empire! Before you immediately say Tau, consider this, Neomuna has self-repairing Nanites built into every building, and if the war got very desperate they would likely make way more than 2 Cloudstriders. But would the Tau just have to weather them through attrition for the next 10 years?
I would say that the weakest destiny faction would be the Fallen. But they can hold ground against Hive, Cabal and Vex.
Tau already span multiple systems and have better technology altogether aside from the nanites, even a few thousand cloudstriders wouldn’t be much
@@gaiofattos2fallen vs tau empire would not be fair in the slightest
@@vidicuss3933another thing to consider for Neomuna, the Cloudstriders Nanites have Vex components built into them, giving them intrinsic access to the Vex Network and basically the ability to teleport through it. Their Skyboards also allow them to fly and they are strong enough to smash through walls, they could use them like missles at ships.
@@jakespacepiratee3740 please stop glazing the tau have already survived a lengthy amount of time as an empire in the 40k universe if you think a few miniature droppods into ships are enough you’re horribly mistaken
I feel like The Witness would be an absolute UNIT in the 40K galaxy, at least until the whole “dissenting voices” weakness is discovered. From there, it’ll be Psychic shenanigans that win the day, something that Warhammer 40K has WAY more of. Of course that would also probably mean that more “Anti-Psyker” factions like The Imperium are going to have to either swallow their pride and play ball or risk annihilation… And I don’t trust them to make the right decision in that regard.
Psykers arent paracasual though. Their power is pulling the warp into real space. The light bends reality to create power. It breaks physics to bring its powers into reality. It has the same effect on everything else.
I feel like it would basically be like the witness being a hyperconcentrated ball of psychers. Just trying to contact it would lead to you being instantly overridden
Two possibilities,
2- some factions research and find its weaknesses, then steal paracausal artifacts to reverse engineer the tech built around it.
2- the witness instantly recognizes the psychic feedback between belief and gods and kills off all physical anchors to their power so they starve. The mf ain't stupid exactly, just super arrogant and unaware of itself in weird ways.
But also probably both would happen, as well as maybe new gods being birthed from the world shattering amounts of psychic power getting thrown around.
Thing is you can know the weakness of the Witness and spread it all over the galaxy but not one mf can do anything about it without mastering the darkness which is a paracasual power than only the witness would have access to in 40k
@@theyincorporated5711
I mean The Warp gets pretty damn close…
It’s basically an equivalent to Destiny’s Darkness, except it’s as Chaotic as The Witness accuses The Light of being.
I feel like the Tenno from Warframe can survive Warhammer 40k. Here's why (spoilers if you're new to Warframe):
The Warframes themselves on their own are nothing more than just destructible flesh golems. However, the Tenno can control them with their magical powers, and even directly assist them. The Warframes themselves are also known to be multi-purpose one-man armies, each with their own strength and magical powers harnessable by the Tenno.
The Tenno are juvenile survivors of a colony ship's failed attempt at accessing an alternate dimension called the Void. A god-like entity known as "The Indifference" offered them a chance to return to reality, and they accepted it. The Indifference then fulfilled the bargain's end and not only gave them the power of the Void to defend themselves, but also removed the very concept of death from the Tenno.
Other than that, I think the only other Warframe faction that can survive 40k is the Sentients. They are human-made machines that have the ability to quickly adapt to any attacks, even magical ones. They can also self-replicate as long as they're not exposed to the Void, which is a good thing since 40k has the Warp instead.
you just explained the tenno, not how they would survive 40k. i dont doubt they could SURVIVE, but they would not have a fun time doing so. for one the necrons existing is a problem, and the warp daemon possession is another threat, even a psyker can just blast them into the warp and at that point they are screeewwweedd. even if they cant die, there are much worse fates in 40k
@@Lucifer-bo3ol thing is, there are warframes that give you complete damage and status immunity. Most(if not all) warframes have that. if you include loadouts like companions and stuff then warframes can probably solo the 40k verse. As of now the big bad of the warframe verse is basically a higher entitiy than 40ks chaosgods, the lord of the void (manwitihinthewall), but the tenno is also basically its herald, so as long as the lord of the void and the void is alive, the tenno cant ever die, because there is always a copy of the tenno stored in the void(you could consider him still dying, but he technically still lives.) (you should look into it yourself, im not 100% on the warframe lore either, but tenno should be able to solo most of the verse)
@@Lucifer-bo3ol The Indifference made countless paradoxical clones of the Tenno, since the very concept of death has been erased. Manage to kill one, and it will send a clone to reality as replacement.
The Tenno can't be corrupted by Chaos, since the deal with the Indifference is akin to a deal with a Chaos God (They're the Daemon Princes of the Indifference).
Mods are canon. The Warframes will take hold of any weapons of Imperial, heretics and xenos alike and modify them to suit their needs.
@@somerandomdude7785 Agree that they can survive. They can have a good mercenary service to the tau and imprerium, also they can introduce themselves as humans, +40 to opinion with imperium)) Though I don't agree with you on corruptibility. You cannot know what will happen with tenno in the warp, warp and void energies are very different if not in possibilities, but for sure in structure. And presence of one doesn't nullify the other. And talking about the mods, some serious field testing needed for them to create mods for status effects in wh40k galaxy, because there are a lot of similar effects, but also a lot of different ones too. And, you know, warp is a different beast of a status effect too
@@somerandomdude7785 trazyn poke balls them 😆
Idc what anyone says, the Witness is still one of the coolest villains I've seen in a game.
I agree, The Witness is one of my favorite villains in fiction
I LOVE the Witness, and it deserved so much better in terms of buildup, the writers of destiny sadly instead of giving the necessary buildup shat out Lightfall :c
@AurelieAris I know, it's such a bummer. I'll never forget the end of witch queen as the Witness floats through his ship then the camera zooms in and he turns around. So good.
Finding out the hive and Savathun were tricked all the way back on fundament was incredible. Then Savathun betrayed him and hid the veil and killed Nezarec. Ugh the lore in Destiny is just so good.
@@beeman4266 Unfortunately, The Witness was made generic in The Final Shape and doesn't really compare to The Man In The Wall. Of course, he wasn't much to begin with, beside his design.
That one guy still has one of the weirdest, mind-boggling introductions I've seen.
witness is way more compelling in warhammer, if you freeze time it would kill the chaos gods presumably
no, the witness freezes everything in a moment. Some frozen have lust (Slaneesh), some frozen are sick (Nurgle), some frozen are in a state of intrigue(tzeentch but severely underpowered), hate/anger/rage (khorne), etc etc. The chaos gods would be damaged, but in no way defeated
@@gamingoverlord8854the witness doesn’t freeze everything in the traditional sense, he calcifies them. If he did that there would be no emotion or beliefs left as they are literally a statue made of some sort of stone 🤦♂️
I think the Warhammer universe has one trick up it's sleeve against the Witness with the Emperor. It has been stated in the Horus Heresy novels that the Emperor has the ability to obliterate souls. If the Emperor gave himself to darkness like the Gardian did in The Final Shape, I think he could do some serious damage to it.
The emperor is a copout answer imo. Depending on what books your reading and who the author is, the Emperor could be an all powerful omnipresent being or a complete fraud.
Lesser beings from the darkness (hive) can attack and destroy souls. And it's not only "gave himself to darkness" but the memory of the Iconoclasm was created both by the Traveler and dissident minds to allow the guardian to confront the witness.
Short answer: Yes
Long answer: Also, yes. Destiny's paracausal powers make comparisons jinda unfair
iirc it wasn't the witness who gave Oryx the power to take, but the Winnower.
Keep in mind that the witness was also Created with the help of the Winnower. I am making a separately comment for this. Because it’s kinda its own thing. It made Titan(Jupiter’s moon) stretch and bend and then let it go. To give you a picture of what he did to Titan, is take a rubber band and stretch it out then bring it back to the middle. Then repeat until you pull it as far as you can the let go, let the rubber band snap back together. That’s what the witness did to Titan.
You NEED the Light and Darkness to beat the Witness
Darkness to open the path its weakness and light to shatter its mind
Yeah witness would win. Its a literal reality altering being. He can freeze shit in time and no one could break out yet doesn. We was about to freeze existence entirely and was in the verge of succeeding. Bro had to tear apart the guardian and his ghost to have enough time to work
People tend to underestimate how overpowered the destiny universe is, sure it might be smaller scale than warhammer but the destructive power the forces of light and darkness have would make Vulkan harder than the Burj Khalifa
Good vid, though I cannot stress enough how I don't agree about your guardians as daemons point.
In wh40k, daemons are not creatures, they don't have souls and real free will. They are all small parts of respectable chaos god. Daemons are uncorruptible because they're not really separate from their god thing, though they can be weakened or tricked and so on.
The closest to the guardian phenomena would be daemon princehood. They are, as guardians too, gifted with certain powers, though they technically loose free will, in some sence. They become puppets, a lot of their thoughts are not their own. And even then, uncorruptibility is very questionable. I would argue change of allegience is possible, if the grip of original chaos god is weak enough.
And in case of guardians and witness, they're not warp entities. And warp energy is not really a simple thing. Witness is strong enough to resist, I'm sure. Though I would argue that just being near warp rifts will affect him in some capacity. And imo guardians, maybe from individual to individual, but they can be corrupted. Because they can think and feel, they're not warp-resistant and they have their selves. Daemons are parts of a god, guardians are not, therefore there is a core to be corrupted
Oh, the Witness would definitely be affectet by the Warp. The Warp is psychic energy, emotions, pain. The exact same thing as the Darkness in Destiny. The Warp, and Darkness energy are almost literally the same concept. The same Darkness that was used to fuse the Witness together in the first place. When transplantet into the 40K universe the Wtiness would essentially be fromed out off Warp energy, so everything that affects the Warp could in theory affect the Witness.
@@centimanj8916the very big difference that makes your point null and void is that The Darkness in Destiny is Paracausal, and The Warp in 40k is not, meaning The Warp can't do anything to The Witness
@@aspserpent well, no really. The Warp itself has little to none causality. It especially shows in the bullcrap like "once the Chaos god is born, it always was, is and will be". Ther Warp actually has no physics laws in it, not understandable to us, at least. The causality, for example, is already broken by the simple fact that in 40k time travel exists. But even then, I would not think that the Warp and Darkness are the same types of energy. So I'm not as radical as centimanj, but I'm most certain that the Warp, in fact, can do something to the Witness. Even, perhaps, influence and corrupt, as it seems that the Witness is sentient, so there is definetly something to influence and corrupt. But I'm no scolar, so I cannot give estimates in required exposure.
@@r0bert649 no, really. the Warp is part of the world in Warhammer 40k. It operates within the confines of causality, no matter how much it bends or outright defies the rules as we understand them. The forces of Darkness and Light exist outside those confines. The Warp is not comparable to either.
The problem here is that Destiny throws the term paracausal around without adhering to what it actually means. Paracausal, per real world definition, means cause following effect, or the effect of an action preceding the action itself. In Destiny it's used simply as "a Wizard did it". Patacausal in Destiny is so vaguely defined, that im hesitant to use it in any crosssetting comparsion. Its the same as the term Gods; it means such different things in both settings that it only sparks confusion
@aspserpent
Neat idea. I'd like to think the tyranid hive mind would blink, and the witness evaporates.
For people who don’t quite understand the witnesses power. Guardians had to wound it 3 times before being able to kill it. 1st in the campaign where you barely scratch it, 2nd in the raid where you make it flee and 3rd in the excision mission where you make him cower behind a ‘impenetrable wall’ which almost cost us our ghost’s light
Oh and it took a total of 21 guardians to kill it, that is across the campaign, raid and final mission
I like this take, but you're missing a bit of the Witness' motivation and backstory. The Traveler didn't abandon that first race, they wanted the Traveler to act like the god they thought it was and give them a purpose in the universe. When it didn't, they became spiteful and became the Witness to give the universe the purpose they wanted so badly. The Witness wouldn't fall apart in a world without the Traveler because the Traveler is ultimately just a means to enact the final shape, even if it hates it conceptually as well. It would likely end up taking the MCU Thanos approach of "reordering" world one by one and instilling itself as the grand ruler it thinks it deserves to be.
Can I just say? I HATE how Bungie never truly showed us the giant climactic battle we all yearned for.
Hell…Call of duty has had better final showdown cutscenes… HALO had better cutscenes man…
If you play the raid then excision that’s a surprisingly good ending. We sever its connection to the light in the raid forcing it to retreat from its monolith. Excision shows the power of the allies we formed over the past few years joining with us now that the witness is hurt beyond repair and actively trying to flee. I just wish the ghost scene was a bit better. Like we finally got to see the traveler do something for us since we quite literally just saved it
@@adamboy0559ngl, the avengers esc battle cutscene was kinda….gay.
@@Cabbage22927 Happy Pride
I think you might be underselling Big E. In his God Emperor state upon the Golden Throne i think he could, if he mustered all of his psychic might, enter the Witness' ritual chamber where it was created. A memory of it manifest by the Emperor's influence.
There he might be able to destroy each of the Witness' minds as the Guardians did, given how each mind was already a broken and dissenting voice within the greater whole, begging for an end to their spiteful existance.
Thing is that u need the Light to be able to weaken/harm the Witness. Idk if there's anything like that in WH
@BrazarB I don't think the Light is a hard requirement, just a path of least resistance. And the ritual chamber is very much within the Witness' mind, this is also true in TFS, where the Emperor's powers are at their best.
I don't know that Big E would 100% beat the Witness, but i think God Emperor has a surprisingly good shot at it, like if you threw them into a match 100 times i think that Big E would come out with at least a couple dozen Ws. Especially since every single mind within the Witness is a dissenter looking for a way to be freed.
And then there's the whole Dark King thing, if GW wanted to explore that further... But i won't speculate on the Dark King's abilities based on nothing.
@@Spike2276 The characters do say in the final shape campaign in the last few missions that the light is what is needed to destroy the witness while darkness is to access its mind
@@Nannowatts19482it was explained at the beginning of the campaign that Darkness was needed to shape things into existence, and that Light was needed to form those shapes into reality.
@@Spike2276yeah nah the light is very much a hard requirement here the only reason the guardians could kill the witness is because they mastered light AND dark
Darkness is needed to access the mind now this the emperor might do but without the light a power the emperor has no access to he'd lose because while the emperor is a super powerful psychic the Darkness is mental power incarnate and the Witness is the closest being to pure darkness we've seen in Destiny
Is the Warp paracausal? If yes, then 40K has a fighting chance. If no, then the Witness wins hands down.
Unless a ghost somehow manages to find its way to the Golden Throne....
Well paracausality is a thing canonically specific to the destiny universe and cannot ever exist in any other universe but for sake of balancing i think the warp probably is paracausal
Yoooo imagine characters in 40k becoming guardians omg, it'd absolutely shake the entire continuity cause to answer your question (no) none of the forces or beings are outside any established physics.
@@deinekes9 Paracausal (without cause or effect) is a fancy words for reality bending or space magic, but you need Light specifically to destroy the Witness
Not really since the warp still exist and is connected in a way to the main warhammer universe while paracausality is something that exists entirely outside of the universe itself
@Ace-Intervention You also needed the dark to beat the witness as well. Light and dark are paracausal. The light is physically, and the dark is mental, but they both ascend the laws of the universe.
9:18 ok so paracausality is more then just “magic” a paracausal force is a force that exists outside of the confines of the universe itself but it can still affect the universe plus even guardians and other paracausal beings can be taken several have in fact beings like riven of a thousand voices or slone
If the witness is the embodiment of darkness and darkness is the opposition to chaos, wouldnt chaos simply be the warhammer equivalent of light?
No, the Light fundamentally is power over the physical, while the Darkness is power over the mind & soul.
It's just that in Warhammer souls=>chaos and the physical=>order, while in Destiny it's the other way around. If brought to the Destiny universe, the Chaos gods would wield the Darkness, while the C'tan would wield the Light.
@ idk I‘m not too much into Destiny, but doesn’t the light give free will? and thus chaos? Isn‘t the whole goal of the witness to remove any chaotic aspects from the universe?
@@Kolibri1313yes and no, the witness does seek to remove chaos, but the light isn’t the source, light is physical aspects of reality like energy and matter, the darkness is metaphysical aspects of reality, like emotion or consciousness, that’s why the witness needs both light and darkness, it reshapes the physical world after its own mental image of what it should be
@Kolibri1313 the Light doesn't directly grant free will. The chaos in the universe created by the Light allows the will granted by the Darkness to living minds the proverbial breathing room required to choose freely. The Light creates this chaos by making physical reality diverge from what conscious minds think reality ought to be or expect it to be. It's very similar to a principle in real world physics that just because you think your theory is very clever doesn't mean it's true. Nor is the universe obligated to follow any of the so called 'Laws of Physics' we have come up with to describe it. The Destiny universe just takes this principle one step further and makes it so that if you think you understand the universe too well, the universe actively tries to change the rules.
@@Kolibri1313chaos doesn’t really depend of free will but instead it depends on its corruption. Taking things to the extreme. The light used by the traveler is meant to represent the right to exist and to determine one’s own course. The witness wanted to take that away because it saw that as causing suffering. So most likely the traveler would try to free the warp of the influence of the chaos gods, while the witness would try to either control or destroy them.
And he's only the first knife
An interesting idea for a video would be seeing what beings in fiction would the witness want to make a disciple and how strong they would be
Guardian can be taken by the witness you can see it happening slowly with sloane
kinda wrong on the whole witness thing. it WANTED to have the final shape happen. it didnt want the guardian to suffer, it actually wanted the guardian to join it because they thought of themselves of saviors of reality, they thought they were saving all of reality by ending it in a perfect stillness, no pain, no agony, just pure stillness. it didnt kill the guardian because it didnt view them as a threat, because we werent. we couldnt even touch it because of how powerful it was
It partially wants us to suffer. More accurately, it wants species blessed by the Light to suffer. Eido has pointed out that the Black Fleet uses different combat tactics based on whether that civilization has been visited by the Traveler or not. For those who has like the Eliksni and Humanity, the Witness uses less efficient methods like combat troops, gravitational weapons that create tsunami, nanoweapons that can strip a person down to the bones in less than a second,... all of these to lengthen the victim's suffering. However, to those not blessed by the Light, they were snuffed out before they even realised that they were being invaded. If I remember correctly, the Pyramid fleet can just destroy a star system by encircling it and crushing the entire thing similar to the box torture machine in the Loki TV series if that makes sense. Compared to what the Witness has done to countless worlds blessed by the Light, the ones that didn't got it easy.
Building off that the only reason we were able to kill it in the first place was because we had help from *INSIDE* the witness itself
"Erm, aksually ☝️🤓"
@@me3moo2 oh c'mon. We're all watching a video on a fictional character fighting another fictional character. We're all a bunch of nerds here.
@@longps9528 Then maybe op should have presented it as their own personal opinion instead of just saying he was wrong. Considering both arent fact and extremely subjective in regards to the Witness' motivations and emotions, its pretty pretentious to come out the gate swinging with "you're wrong lol, anyways heres MY subjective take on it"
The Witness is unbeatable. There is nothing that scales to them. As with most beings of that nature, The Witness was their own undoing. Everything that allowed Guardians to defeat them was provided by The Witness, Guardians and the Traveler merely took advantage.
While I'll agree with witness being unbeatable. It literally took the traveler and veil to grant the power to the guardian to harmonically combine light and darkness to kill the witness. Guardians have a change because a paracausal being verses a paracausal being can kill each other. Normal factors cannot
sloan was a guardian and got partially taken and the awoken are able to be taken as well. the awoken arent quite guardians but they are similar due to how they were born and having ties to both the light and darkness.
Been waiting for you to drop this
11:40 the Witness can absolutely Take Guardians. It just takes way, WAY more effort. Oryx only encountered us twice and was getting dangerously close to Taking us until we countered him. Mara Sov got so good at the concept that she can partially Take us already and she isn't even close to the power the Witness can muster. I think the only reason it didn't try to was because it was both focused elsewhere and reveling in our collective torment.
Short answer: yes
Long answer: this video
I mean, Xivu could do quite well in 40k.
I’m not acquainted well with 40k, this is literally my first introduction to it. I do know a lot of Hive lore though.
Xivu took the knight morph (I think, my memory on terms is stinky), and she grows powerful through conflict whether winning or losing. Warhammer is a world that is ridiculously full of war. It stands to reason that her power would skyrocket to impossible levels because of the war everywhere, which is exactly what makes her strong.
She is literally Khorn but doesn’t have any of his weaknesses lol. Out of the sibling trio Savathun would struggle a bit but I wouldn’t say she stands no chance soloing the verse. Oryx and Xivu would devour 40k
the final shape is one part the witness' idea of perfection and one part universe level stagnation
Are we counting sloane as taken? because during season of the deep we see that she is partically taken and is fighring off its corruption. We also see her loose control for a second and nearly attack Zavala in a cutscene.
one issue, the witness didnt give oryx the ability to take. that was the winnower.
I don't think the Witness can solo the ENTIRE Warhammer verse BUT he can cause some massive amounts of damage to it before being sealed away probably
Sealed away? By who homie? Not even the necrons have technology powerful enough to stop the Witness
You just don’t wanna believe he can. You wanna believe there’s gotta be someone or something in 40k that could beat the Witness but that’s just not that case
@@ThatRandomDude204 The Witness cannot be trapped nor sealed in a world with no light.
@@TheBitingBat Dunno there's enough bullshit to go around in Warhammer for something like that to happen
it, the witness is a compound being
Warhammer doesn't have The Light, so probably.
If the witness was also able to rope in its subservient species (the hive, scorn, vex, fallen, etc) i dont see any faction beating their combined might. The are mostly mechanical with the little organic matter they do possess able to corrupt other organic matter. And the hve gods would likely be power boosted as the hive as a species derive power from their logic. Xivu Arath the god of war would surely become one of the most powerful beings in the galaxy. Savathun able to feed off of and gain power from the concept of trickery would be an interesting parallel to Tzeentch i think.
I will say there would be no way for the Witness to take tyrannids because there is no will to take. That would be one of them the few things the witness would actually have to take
The intrinsic will to consume or move or whatever stops the Tyranids from all just collapsing where they are is enough will to Take. Unless I'm fundamentally misunderstanding the Tyranids and every last one of them is nothing but a literal flesh puppet controlled remotely by a single entity, Tyranids could absolutely be taken.
Nice vid, only recommendation is use higher quality video files. This looks like 240p
The Witness doesn't require as much as chaos gods' deliberately dark symbolic rituals and specific numerical-astronomical concurrences to manifest powers in realspace by the chaos followers
Not to mention that in newest lore, Necron techs, anti-Chaos warp gods (from Star Child, Gork & Mork, T'auva, Ynnead avatar, Tyranids' Shadow in The Warp, etc) are already complicating Great Game into not much of a game, but of actual existential metaphysical warfare within The Warp
I think The Warp itself is already beyond the monopolies/oligopolies of the chaos gods, though every warp pantheons' factions regardless of Chaos, Order or Anything-in-between/Neutral are brewing, as there's technically already 3 CANDIDATES FOR 5TH CHAOS GOD (lol): Malice (at least until GW figured out on how they can evade copyright problems of their own), Vashtorr (from Arks of Omen) and Dark King (from The End and The Death which might be a dark side to ever-growing Star Child)
I do think The Warp aren't intangible either, as Space Marines 2' way later missions against thousand sons' chaos marines had showcased so Final Shape might have able to grow Psychically within The Warp, provided if the wills are already stronger than Chaos Undivided greater daemons, while able to disrupt things in Realspace as the entire race group of Full-powered C'tan (which The Witness already does by distorting and reshaping causality, as even each of full C'tan individual need to stay as embodiment of an element/concept materially, though C'tan able to devour and being fueled by souls in War in Heaven also ironically, somewhat goes a bit close to chaos gods as Tulpa of their own, albeit more psychic)
If a man can do it with a damaged traveler’s chosen then they can do it
The witness would turn the space marines into one of its factions/take them and not think twice about them
Btw paracausality isn’t “magic” it’s literally being fully unbound by causal closure
Nobody has made a video on the Hive in Warhammer 40. With all Hive Gods. Especially Oryx.
If the Sword Logic is applied, The Hive wins by default against all but Khorne.
@@papounator8843 With Sword Logic.
@АрунАрун-н9о Yeah. Xivu Arath would stomp everyone because she wins all her wars by Attrition and she's just like Khorne, where she becomes stronger from Bloodshed, regardless of which side sheds it... The only way Xivu Arath was beaten was because she was banned from the Pantheon's Discord by Eris Morn after she stole Savathûn's Admin Privileges XD
I would say that he could beat Warhammer all the way to the Chaos Gods, though they are invinsible so long as there is life in the universe, but the Final Shape should be able to correct that, though he has killed temporal, conceptual beings before, don’t think on the CGs level.
Helldivers vs Helghast
Edit: forgive me for the length I tried to fit as much of my evidence as I could based off of what is off the top of my head that is common knowledge in the Destiny lore.
My guy can flick his wrist and dispose of an entire squadron of fighters without looking. What makes you think that the warhammer universe can even come close. He was created by the Winnower the embodiment of death, decay, and darkness. Not to mention his millions of followers.
However, and I want people to read this. Imma make 2 scenarios. Scenario 1, the witness has control over the traveler. The witness could just think everything into the final shape and call it a day. But to make it more fair imma say this is scenario 2 the Witness doesn’t have control over the traveler. So they would have a better chance. But the Witness specializes in deception in ways that would make the forces of Chaos shiver. Humanity’s devotion to the emperor would be the very thing that fucks them. Because the witness would feed on that and turn probably the most loyal to the emperor against each other in the name of…let’s say the witness promised them that he would make sure the Emperor was an unstoppable and an immortal being. Not like he kinda isn’t already. But that besides the point.
Conclusion anything that the Warhammer universe tried to fight in the Destiny universe would be a massive fucking L for reasons that would result in YT putting a word limit in comments. The only thing that the warhammer universe could fight are the fallen and the cabal. The cabal would give space marines a run for their money but The imperium would eventually pull through on those 2 fronts I will most defiantly say. But the Hive feed off of war so they get stronger the longer they fight, example Xivu Arath this bitch consumed an entire planet with war because she tricker the cabal into fighting one another then fighting the hive. The moment Xivu Arath entered into the warhammer universe she would instantly be behind stopping. Due to the amount of war that goes on. I would say more but this is all I can fit in a chat. So take it or leave it as you see fit.
Here's a fun video idea, The Wraith from Stargate Atlantis (When they were a fully unified fighting force) vs any of the factions in warhammer. Although in space combat they may be beaten against a faction like the Imperium, I think the Wraiths food source being humanity could make for an interesting fight. Also I think something to not be underestimated is the difference in FTL. Wraith would not be limited by using the Warp and could navigate the galaxy with relative ease.
Its complicated, but I dont see the Witness losing to the chaos since they use the “chaos” energy as Order and their Law over both the Infinite Ascendant realms and physical universe, Big E would have a bit of problem dealing with this but honestly Big E could win if he knows how to trump the Final Shape
Yknow what would be a cool analysis?
The Witness Vs Bill Cipher
Order vs Chaos
Deity vs Deity
Theres a few things in this video i disagree with, and I think my interpretation could lead to a 40k victory here
1. I belive the Tyranids would be paracausal. People tend to forget that amongst all the countless chittering masses that Tyranid bioforms can be made to be very powerful psykers. The tyranid hivemind is almost the polar opposite of what the Witness is, one massive, infinitely hungry entity presiding over trillions of bodies. It has a psychic presence so powerful that wherever its fleets go, paracausal effects begin to break down under the weight of it's presence. I feel that anything that can function similarly to a darkness zone has to be paracausal.
2. The main weakness of the Witness is the fact that despite it being a gestalt mind, it has dissenting voices inside if itself that wish for its downfall. Preying on dissenting voices is what chaos DOES, it's their entire modus operandi. I dlfind it easy to believe that the manipulation of Slaanesh or Tzeentch could grow those dissenting voices until the witness was at war with itself, opening up the possibility for a champion to possibly defeat it.
3. Tzeentch is the Chaos god of Hope, Change, and Free Will. Conceptually, as he is so diametrically opposed to the Witness, I think he would be able to do SOMETHING against it, perhaps take up some if the roles that the traveler had to in Destiny's story, if with vastly different methods. He is also a master of manipulation, and given how opposite ti the witness he is, i think he would have no trouble using the Witness' rage and pettiness to get him into whatever position he needed in order to enact whatever plan could harm him.
Aight so the Tyranids are like a biological equivalent to the Vex, that'd be an interesting conflict.
But paracausality means to defy causal mechanisms, I.E the established energetic rules of any system. Essentially infinite fuel typa thing.
True tho that the witness is ironically gonna be weak af to psychic manipulation if those beings can get past all its walls. And very interesting to see a god in cannon already embodies the travelers purpose.
1. The Tyranids are not paracausal. Thats not how that works. To be Paracausal you need either the Light or the Dark. The warp is magic, not paracausal.
2. The only reason that the dissenting voices were of any help were due to them being made material through the power of the traveler. Its mind cannot be invaded otherwise, as ther is no mind to invade. He is a being made of energy that comes from nothing. THeres is no brain to "get into"
3. Sure, he may try to oppose him, but he physically cannot do anything to harm him without the light. I don't think the Witness could really hurt the chaos gods either though, as they are really just concepts made material through the thoughts of every living being in the warhammer universe. The only way to defeat them is to kill every being that believes in them. Which would take an immessurably long time. Buuuuut, we also know that the witness is BILLIONS of years old. Unimaginably older than any chaos god is currently
I honestly dont think the witness would go out to immediately overtly disrupt the chaos gods. I think it would attempt to sway them by lying about its goals and muddying what it is, like it did throughout all of destiny history, and attempt to leverage that to change these gods or other higher entities into warped disciples. It would try to seem benevolent and willing to sow chaos, like it tried to appeal to calus, the guardians, hive, rhulk, etc. only to wholesale turn its back and return to its true purpose overtly when the cards are down. It did exactly that to everyone who interacted with it, so whos to say it wont try to do so again? Overtly attacking them from the start just doesnt seem like the witness' MO to me.
Hey, I could be wrong, but I’m pretty sure that the Witness didn’t give Oryx the power to take. It was the Winnower that did that.
Have to remember that the books of sorrow are an unreliable narrator. It’s what oryx knew. And oryx didn’t know about the witness like savathun did. He wasn’t even aware that the hive were tricked while pre guardian savathun was
@ the way the entity talks to oryx matches the way the winnower talks to us, not the way that the witness talks though
anyone know what the cinematic is called at 4:29?
Destiny 2: The Final Shape opening cutscene
Short answer
Absolutely
The witness would destroy everything in an instant
Someday I want to see you do a video about Ratchet and Clank in the Warhammer 40k universe. Plus I want to see Space Marine’s reaction to seeing a fellow marine get hit with a Sheepinator and I want to see Tech Priests react to Ratchet and Clank’s weapons and gadgets.
Plus I want to see a interaction between Dr Neferious and the Necrons
Sonic the Hedgehog vs Warhammer 40k
Edit PS I want to make this really interesting so let’s say the Chaos Emeralds come with him but Sonic only has 1 with him the other 6 are scattered across the Warhammer Universe I’m honestly interested on what the other factions would do if they got a Chaos Emerald
Edit Eggman vs Warhammer 40k
Edit actually maybe Mobius/Sonic’s Earth should just appear in Warhammer 40k
Imma save everyone some time:
Yes.
Malice: my man !
The witness is just the president from the Lego movie that wants to freeze everyone in place. Very stupid villain for something that is supposed to be super threatening and life ending
An oversimplification, but even then how is a universe where life doesn't end but simply stops in place and means nothing for the rest of eternity not unbelievably horrifying? Just because a similar plot point was used in a kids movie doesn't make the concept itself childish or, as you put it, stupid.
@ when they come out of nowhere for the sake of continuing a dead game, I would consider it stupid
@@bmohr9826 💀💀
The Witness and Final Shape are referenced as early as the Black Garden in D1, it was well known by a large contingent of the community that they were going to be the final, final boss.
Just because you oversimplified it doesn't make it scary. The witness wanted to turn the entire universe like that because it truly believed the final Shape was salvation.
Simon the Digger in Warhammer 40K