Tolkien Reveals Tom Bombadil's True Identity!
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 7 ส.ค. 2024
- In an offhand remark, Tolkien tells us who Tom Bombadil really is, but more importantly he raises a lot of interesting questions about the nature of identity and the importance of names.
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Eldest, that's what I am.
Tom remembers the first raindrop and the first acorn.
He knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless, before the Dark Lord came from Outside.
Spirit of Arda
I'm reminded of what Treebeard said to Merry and Pippin in the forest of Fangorn in The Two Towers. He said, "For one thing it would take a long while: my name is growing all the time, and I've lived a very long, long time; so my name is like a story. Real names tell you the story of the things they belong to in my language, in the Old Entish as you might say."
As a Welshman, though not a true Welsh speaker, I had the most profound and peculiar sensations when I first read LOTR. Tolkien based the Elvish language Sindarin on Welsh. They have the same "tune" though not the same word for word meaning. The mountain Caradhras sounded like the actual Welsh mountain Cader Idris, although their meanings in English are quite different. Gandalf's fire raising incantation "Naur an edraith ammen. Naur dan i ngauroth" after they are attacked by wargs after the abortive attempt at the Redhorn pass, was so similar to Welsh that I felt I ought to be able to understand it and I was upset that I couldn't. I since learned that NAUR is Sindarin for fire, whereas in Welsh the same-sounding word NAWR just means "now". Then again AMROTH is an actual little place by the sea in Pembrokeshire and well worth a visit if you're ever down that way.
I wonder if Finnish speakers have a similar experience with Quenya ?
I always felt that he was just the corporeal, and sentient, manifestation of illuvatar's uncorrupted music
Tom Bombadil IS the secret fire that Morgoth could not find!
Names are very important in the occult. Knowing the true names of beings could grant power over them or grant the ability to channel their power. That’s why the idea of “he whom we do not name” is a thing. Today, it’s a trope but in other times and places, it’s serious.
The occult was huge back in the 1920s. There’s no way Tolkien wasn’t intimately familiar with the idea of the power of names.
My personal opinion. Tom is Tolkien himself (the creator of all). Thats why he can simply hold the one ring, its his creation along with everything in LOTR, The Hobbit and The Simirilion
I think you hit the marque. the creator of a story is not subjected to the laws of the story and neither is Tom Bombadil.
Writing yourself into a story has a bad name since Wesley Crusher in Starwars and the tsunami of Mary Sue's in all kind of fiction.
But if Tom Bombadil is what we now would call a Mary Sue, this is the way it should be done.
@@kamion53 pardon me, but you mean Star Trek: The Next Generation. Incidentally, the first use of the term ‘Mary Sue’ was actually in a parody of low-quality fan-fiction.
The idea that Tom Bombadil is an author avatar is quite interesting indeed.
But Tolkien has stated out of his own mouth that he has never represented himself in any of his literary works so Tom Bombadil can't be Tolkien
@@jameshewitt7376 It was just a thought, but it was wrong. Makes it even more mysterious who or what Tom Bombadil is.
13:14
Michael: "Your dentist's name is Crentist?"
Dwight: "Maybe that's why he became a dentist."
Bombadil is the author...that’s the impression I always got. I think the debate isn’t over who he is but what he is or represents.
9:10 "his bow which only he has the strength to pull"
Reminds me of a beggar hosted by Penelope and her suitors ... you know Tolkien loved the Odyssey as an example of eucatastrophe, right?
13 minutes in at what point do you actually talk about him?
21:40
@@jimjohnson5739 thank you.
Thanks that saved me 20 minutes of my life!
ADHD much?
"Frodo sum of Drogo" is also a way to identify yourself to someone who may not know you but does know Drogo.
I have introduced myself as "Joe, Larry's son" to people who didn't know me, but did know my father, Larry. It is pretty effective at denoting who I am and why that person may care to meet me.
You just need to think in a smaller scale context. Forget about modern large cities and people's ability to relocate across the country (or world). If everyone is from the same small county these sort of names make sense. There are places in the USA where this still holds.
I think he's Tolkien and Goldsberry is his wife.
Me too... especially if you look at Edith's home by the river, her absent father, raised by her mother "river woman's daughter' and "barrow wake" just outside her town. See comment above as well.
I am underhill, and under and overhills my paths lead
The idea that your name can influence who you are is interesting and many cultures believe that.
Just to add on the name Mordor, mord means murder in swedish (and norwegian and danish as well i think). Might be a coincidence but JRRT knew some scandinavian.
Some..?
and took means fool:)
Quote: "I am going to have a long talk with Bombadil: such a talk as I have not had in all my time. He is a moss-gatherer, and I have been a stone doomed to rolling. But my rolling days are ending, and now we shall have much to say to one another."
speaking of the quote above; tolkien is contrasting gandalfs moving around, with bombadils staying in one place. also, he is contrasting gandalf's dealings with the 'big picture' of events, with bombadils interest in the small doings of localised nature. obviously, they would have much to talk about and teach each other, exchanging the fleeting big events news, for the small scale but eternal 'news' of the natural world.
Fascinating stuff. Sadly, most of the people that watched the video were not subscribers. They had not sympathy or patience with your "joke" with Bombadil, that's why so many dislikes. But I appreciate it.
I am named Ildefonso, germanic origin, it means "ready for battle". I didn't know the meaning (I just learned now about it). And until well into my twenties, that was my spirit. Always defensive, always ready to battle with life and with whoever I thought was deserving of being battled. Always fighting. As a kid, with my fists, as an adult, training my debate skills. Always looking for conflict.
I solve many of my problems and now I am not so conflictive at all. I am more relaxed. But even now I tend to respond too much to people, I answer too many comments even when I know I shouldn't, I discuss too much.
Of course, I think it's pure luck. Like the horoscope. Everyone had to battle at some point, I bet a lot of people would have thought that kind of name was fitting.
What I think about the names is that they wear the wishes of the parents. They put names they think are beautiful because they want their children to be beautiful. They put names of people they love because they want to love them. Or they put names with a meaning because they want their children to understand that meaning.
That kind of things truly define our early relationship with our parents, which define our personality and the way we face the world.
So yes. Our names are our destinies.
I very much appreciate the thumbnail :)
I had no chance to even think "What?! No!" LoL
This whole book was written for Christopher Tolkien (not exclusively, but that is an important aspect of it).
Christopher LOVED the character Tom Bombadill (who was a common character in night-time stories based on a doll his son had).
Hence, he put him in here as a way to give his son his favorite character in a weird place.
This is interesting information.
I find the way you’re thinking about it very interesting. I like it. It brings up pleasant memories and sort of longings/fantasies. So many beautiful names in Tolkien have the effect on me like you describe with Mordor. (The evocative characteristic the names seem to have.) one name I find super beautiful is Eärendil. What a beautiful glistening name. Now, I admit I’m probably influenced by the phial of Galadriel, the “light of Eärendil, our most beloved star” and its compelling presence in the movie trilogy. But that name really seems to glisten with silver and gold and starlight... something like that, lol. And Eärendil in the story is just so, so cool and compelling.
Initial reaction when I first came across Tom. "Wtf is going on. Is this a troll?"
Tom Bombadil is from the Void, where we know things exist. He was in the bricks the Valar and Maiar used to shape Arda. He's a thing like Ungoliant, BROADLY speaking. A thing of another universe outside in the void. No one said Arda was the *only* universe Eru made.
Tom is Arda manifested
he is nature itself
Tom I believe is the manifestation of the Author's creative power, he is a transcendental metaphysical construct of multiple spanning realities, as it exists as a Real Being in Tolkien's mind as the Origin of all of his ideas and it had the power to seep inside the fabric of his writing and decides to live there. This might not be known to most people, but some writers who create a world for their own enjoyment, tend to create such reflections of their Will inside their stories. However, these characters can not help in the story, for they are mere observers, manifestations of the Author's Unconsciousness to experience and live in the world they had created. This is why Gandalf expresses that Tom can not help, for he is not there for that, save for experiencing the World of Arda as its flows from the Author's consciousness and into the fabric of the story. He could do anything, but that would ruin the story, so he has to watch and see how the story unfolds.
Very thoughtful without having that very unsavory flavor of trying to redefine the story or push a certain agenda, kinda rare for original thoughts.
Spot on. In support of that, notice Goldberry is 'River Woman's Daughter' -- Edith Tolkien grew up hard by the biggest river in the UK, her father was 'gone' very early in her life so 'River Woman's Daughter' -- and more than that, just off to the east of Edith's birth town is a lovely garden with unusual flowers and an unusual iron age barrow, called 'barrow wake' near Gloucester. Remember what happened to Frodo just after the first meeting with Tom and they headed off... More than that, Tom predated ALL of the LOTR published works, Tom was, in fact eldest.
Goldberry said of Bombadil "He is. He is, as you have seen him."
What, though, do the elements in the name mean?
Among other definitions, "Tom" may mean "strong" or "simplicity".
"Bomba" is a particular type of drum, implying rhythm, which Tom continually displays.
And while "dil" is officially defined as an abbreviated form of "dilute", it may also be a nonsensical append to another word.
Tom Bombadil is a strong, simple (as in living, not mentally), rhythmically driven individual
who plays freely with nonsensical expressions.
As for surnames... I think Dickinson is one of the most suggestive I've seen or heard.
A name is something for other people to use. If you lived alone on an island and had no contact with other people, then a name is not needed. Or even if you live with another person, do you really need a different name for each. You could easily use the same word for both of you. It is not uncommon for couples to call each other "Dear" or "Honey".
Your name is something society imposes on you. It is needed to keep track of you and the things you do.
How close do you think Dunderklumpen comes to Tom Bombadil?
th-cam.com/video/Y0KF5_wcIv0/w-d-xo.html
Tolkien was a language expert. Also a historian and translator of mythology.
Whoever he is, he's got style and he loves his wife Goldberry
I always thought of it like this The idea that people are the universe experiencing itself has been around a long time I kind of just see Tom like that he is the universe experiencing itself. And I think you're right Tom bombadil is just Tom bombadil
Tom Bombadil is the Bob Ross of Middle Earth.
People can tell that Bombadil is important to Tolkien and they assume that means that Bombadil is a major character...he isnt
It's the name of the dutch doll he and children played together with.
The personality ,backstory and world that Tolkien created for the doll was the beginning of the mythology of Middle Earth.
He wrote several poems about the adventures of Tom Bombadil years before "The Hobbit" and you see places , names and events that later became part of Middle Earth in those poems.
This character was created by Tolkien and then the world of Middle Earth was created around it.
That's why Tom says he's the eldest who remembers the first acorn and raindrop.
Tolkien included him in LOTR as a tribute to how it all started.
Middle-earth started before Bombadil. But he might have been the first “outside” character to get drawn into that world.
This is right, except it was only one poem, The Adventures of Tom Bombadil which was in The Oxford Magazine in 1934. Goldberry, Old Man Willow, the Withywindle and the Barrow-Wight are in it. He had them, he needed an 'adventure' (Letter 153)' he used them. Actually The Hobbit was written but not published by 1934. He wasn't too sure how/whether it fitted in with the Silmarillion stuff, it was off to one side. Bombadil even more so, and it kinda shows. PS Tom has lots of other names as per Elrond -- Tom probably wasn't the first. I don't know where that leaves us
I know Tom Bombadil's true identity, of which I shall now truly reveal:
Old Tom Bombadil is a merry fellow,
Bright blue his jacket is, and his boots are yellow.
None has ever caught him yet, for Tom, he is the Master:
His songs are stronger songs, and his feet are faster.
Theory: Tom is an incarnation of the Music of the Ainur and was in Arda from the begining. He is Tom Bombadil because that is his name but that doesn't tell us what he is or how he came to be. Also he was known by other names (Iarwain Ben-adar, Orald, Forn, "Moss gatherer") in times past so this explanation doesn't necessarily make sense. "He knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless, before the Dark Lord came from Outside." this implies (but not implicitly) that he was in Arda before any of the Ainur entered. People have discussed this topic for years and just because Tom says his name is Tom Bombadil does not mean he couldn't be Eru, or Aule or any of the other theories. I like the music of the Ainur theory because it tracks with him being 'eldest', presumably elder than other Maiar at least in terms of how long he has resided in Middle Earth. Music of the Ainur also ties in with Tom always singing, chanting or humming.
Tom is Arda
the Spirit of the Earth manifest
Wouldn't the completion of this argument include a linguistic analysis of what the name "Bombadil" meant? Seeing as how the premise of the argument is that the name is what defines the LOTR character.
Well, yeah, but that would require actual knowledge on where the name comes from.
Tom Bombadil has several names in several languages, all refering to his age, and Tom Bombadil is the one he reveals to the four Hobbits, since this is the name he also revealed to other Hobbits like Maggot or people like Gandalf and Elrond. It's the name he identifies with.
It's clearly not modern Westron/Hobbitish (since it would have been translated to English then), and in the book "The Adventures of Tom Bombadil" Tolkien referred to it as Bucklandish (which makes it a Westron name with maybe some archaic, Stoorish elements in it).
The Appendixes of LotR also reveal that names like Tom don't match their modern counterparts, but are only phonetic replacements of common Hobbit-names like Tomba (which might have a legendary origion, but were practically meaningless to modern Hobbits).
You could say the same thing of his last name, especially when you compare it to the similar sounding "daffodil", which somehow derives from greek "asphodelos". But though it might share the same ending syllable, the rest of it is lost to time (even though there are real-life "bomba"'s that we could try to connect, it's ultimately fruitless).
Tom(ba) Bombadil overall is as undefined as before. It sounds both familiar and nonsensical, but it's defies all translation, and maybe Tolkien was aware of that, since he called him once "one of those riddles that have to exist".
@@fermintenava5911 I'm aware of all this. 🙂 All that I was asking was for an analysis in the video such as that you just proffered (which didn't need to start with a "but"). IF the premise is that the name defines the character, THEN at least the attempt should be made.
In a word, "Yes".
Is Tom the music of the ainur?
Black Land is what the Egyptians called Egypt: Kemet, the red land was the desert around it. Black in this case was a good thing because it indicated the fertility of the land (basically it was black because of the organic deposits from the Nile). Culture can change the meaning of color and other symbolic things according to their history or perspective.
i would say, simply, that tom bombadil is a maia, maybe one of the people of yavanna. i compare his little land as they mention in the council of elrond as like the girdle of melian, and he has power over everything within his girdle which is why he cannot pass beyond it
I would contend that Ungoliant is not merely descriptive. She destroys the Two Trees, sucking the life and light out of them, causing the Elves and the Valar great sorrow and leaving the world without light until the making of the Sun and the Moon, thus creating, or 'weaving', rather, "gloom" in two senses of the word. Thus, it has a predictive element, too.
Before the Song Had Ended.He came when Arda was Lava and Incandescent Gas.Was Trying to Fulfil the Song Even as Melko De
Descended and Claimed it as His Own.
I like to entertain the concept that Tom Bombadil was another "unintentional" creation from the music because of the added discord of Melkor. A true and unique anomaly. Cheers
14:22 Hans (meaning John) is common in both Swedish and German. Georg (meaning George) is so too. The combination is striking in German and rare in Swedish.
How would that affect my upgrowing, do you think?
I forget what John means, but I thunk George means farmer. Of course beyond that the associations within your own language would be better known to you since my foreign language knowledge is a tiny bit of Spanish, French, and of course Elvish. ;)
@@TolkienLorePodcast My point was, Hans and Georg are each common in both childhood languages, but the combination is not, in German it is so little common as to be striking, in Swedish it is very rare.
The influence of the meanings are another matter, John means gift of God / gift of the Lord, in Hebrew, George means farmer or literally "earth worker" in Greek. But knowledge of meanings would be a more conscious kind of influence, comparable to knowing about Sts John the Baptist, John the Gospeller (usually identified with son of Zebedee, one of the 12), George of Cappadocia ... a knowledge I also had.
How is Hans anologous to John? They sound completely different.
@@arte0021 They are both short for Iohannes or Iohannem. Different accents and cutting off different parts of the word.
Iohannes and Iohannem are not two names, but two case forms of same name in Latin.
Unlike quite a few other names, it is not the nominative, but the accusative which matches the Hebrew original IohanaN. Like Latin, Greek also has both nominative and accusative, but the Greek accusative ends in N.
So what does Bombadil mean?
Nothing as far as I know. It was just a name given to one of his son’s toys.
I think Tom and Goldberry are incarnations of Arda, like Pans and Nymphs, without the debauchery.
11:49 Frodo is Saxo's latinisation of a name which in Old Norse was Fródhi, so, Old Norse with a Latin twist. Perhaps extant in Anglo-Saxon too (same person in Beowulf : Froda).
In the Westron language (called "Common Speech" in the books) "Frodo" is actually "Maura". This is not an actual word in Westron, but in archaic Rohirric it means "wise". Also, in Westron "Samwise" is "Banazir" (which translates to "half-wise"), shortened to "Ban". "Merriadoc" is "Kalimac", shortened to "Kali" which translates to "jolly" (hence "Merry"). Peregrin is "Razanur", or "Razar" for short, which translates to "small apple" (much like "Pippin").
Note also that the Gaffer's name in Westron is "Ranugad", which translates to "stay-at-home".... "Hamfast" in English.
@@davidkulmaczewski4911 Do you remember the edition of LotR which claimed to be rendering the Westron more accurately than Tolkien, and where Gandalf's words were a bit saltier?
I think the court turned down the plea that Tolkien himself had claimed it was no novel ...
Thanks for reminding me, it was some time since I read that appendix!
So far you’ve been talking about three kinds of ideas about names.
First as a more or less arbitrary identification code. ”This story is about a hobbit. Which one? Frodo. Which Frodo, there are several? Frodo son of Drogo, ward of Bilbo, who lived on Bag End. Ah, that hobbit.”
Second is as a way for an individual to place himself inside a societal context. Aragorn isn’t just ”son of Arathorn” as a way to differentiate him from other rangers. ”Strider” does that just as well. Whenever Aragorn or Legolas does the whole ”son of this, son of that” routine, they are evoking the royal lineage of the lost crown of Arnor, they are placing him at the head of a dispersed but still cohesive tribe of people that count themselves as the inheritors and secret protectors of that kingdom. A kingdom that they still think of as a living reality even if it currently lacks a political or geographical location. The Rohirrim use their names in a similar way, but I’m not sure if elves do.
Third is as a kind of magical word for the platonic idea of a person. The Glorfindel we see with our eyes, the flesh and clothes and signs of tiredness and worry (or am I thinking of PJ Arwen now?) is not the real Glorfindel, any more than your overcoat and job title is who you are. The real Glorfindel is a phrase in the celestial music, and Frodo glimpses him as an angelic shape made out of light and elvish words and character traits. This is the name concept that leGuin runs with. I think that is what Treebeard is talking about.
But I’m not sure Tom Bombadil means either of these though. It sounds more like he’s saying that names cannot tell you who and what someone really is. Only the actual physical person standing in front of you is real, and a word can only capture a fraction of that.
But I might be reading in stuff from other sources.
I always saw the Aragorn thing as him being Aragorn II, son of Arathorn II - whilst Aragorn I was the son of Aravir, and Arathorn I was son of Arassuil - there was no other Aragorn who’s father is Arathorn, and there is no other Arathorn whom’s son is Arathorn - so basically what you said about Frodo , but I’d never considered the evocation of royalty with Aragorn, so I carried only that first thought across contexts.
Belegaer sounds to me like waves washing on a sandy beach. Shores of sand in elven land...
10:53 It is a loss to English the adjective "sarrow" is no longer there, however, if it had been Saruman would have been less systerious to the readers, it's simply sarrow man in Old Mercian.
Crafty to wise / sneaky to treacherous.
Cool!
Tom is a Maia gone native.. Some think he was of Yavanna's kindred, but that does not explain his power over the Barrow Wight, and being totally unaffected by the Ring. He is rather of Irmo's kindred.
You forgot that, on one level, the entire tale of Numenor in the Silmarillion is a set-up for a pun based on the word Atlantis.
Tolkien actually wrote that Atalanta was Atlantis. Chris Tolkien quoted him in the Middle Earth explained books.
Son of X also probably comes from surnames often being literally "Son of X" in nordic countries.
Mattsson==Son of Matts for instead.
Karlsen is danish for Carls son.
I think the connection between words and names in Tolkiens mythology are actually to a great part taken of the old testament, which in some parts was translated several times rfrom different local languages. What came out of the process, was not a very homogeneous work It started( like the Silmarillion) with the Genesis. And its word in Greek can mean." At the beginning there was the word. But the word used ( Logos) also means sound. So logically, since Jahwe( interestingly the biblical go has a personal name) didn't have anything to talk to before the creation, Translating logos with sound makes far more sense. And Tolkien mirrors this in the Ailulindale where he sings the world into being with sound. So I think you have a ver yimportant point there.
I like your thinking man.
Why does this guy remind me so much of Cody from Cody's lab? Can anyone explain?
I think Bombadil is a manifestation of the music of the Ainur. Neither he nor Goldberry seemed like other living creatures of Arda. Manifestations of earth and water spirits? Goldberry is called river daughter and her symbol would seem to be water lilies.
I sat through 22 and a half minutes to hear you say...Tom Bombadil IS Tom Bombadil, no more, no less. But you know, you just may be right. I can't argue with it either. We can only enjoy being with him when we read that chapter and a half that Peter Jackson had no idea what to do with.
Enjoyed listening. Though different from your usual posts, as you stated, you explore language with a Tolkien-like enthusiasm, so it's all good. On a side note, you talk about Mordor being a wasteland starting around the 18:11 mark. I've always wondered how Sauron supported huge orc forces for years and years with no fertile land and water sources. Don't recall it ever being referenced in the books. Perhaps a topic for a future video?
It actually is mentioned in the books very briefly. I might make a video but I’d need some extra stuff of a similar nature to fill up some time lol
aye, it is indeed mentioned, I believe in RotK, Frodo, sort of...lamenting their state as they walked in the shadow of the Orodruin, at its base til they reached the path up. the train of thought started with, as I said lament. lamentation of almost spent supplies, in a barren land where barely water was found. yet, in the south region of Mordor there is Nurn. ash-blown lands, but the land is moist enough that the Sea of Nurnen, an inland Sea, and only real body of water in Mordor, doesn't dry up. now, moving along...if I remember correctly, it's an ash-blown land like Lithlad's plain (also in Mordor) though Nurn it, managed to absorb and maintain nutrients in the soil because of Orodruin's ash...allowing for dry land farming.
maybe@@TolkienLorePodcast will fact check me, but I think that I'm correct, it's just been a while since I read it.
I don’t remember where they are in their journey but either Frodo or Sam wonders out loud how Sauron feeds his armies and the narrator breaks in to let us know about the Sea of Nurn. I don’t recall it going into detail about the ash providing fertility or anything.
@@TolkienLorePodcast now, the ash laden lands specifically I can't recall the source. I just remembered reading it when younger and recalled thinking it made sense. i'd cite specifics if I recalled, but as it is...that was the best picture I could paint of it in my head. though I know this bit to be absolutely true, part of their food source was from Nurn, part came from outside Mordor...and Sauron's troops, orc, man, beast alike all got fed.
So about Tom bombadil...
Not only did I endure your whole video, I even skimmed through All the numerous comments and read more than half of them, to see if Anyone had at least clarified the root meanings of the name Tom and had tried to build up on some etymological POSSIBLE meaning on what Bombadil could mean. honestly by the video's intro I had guessed that that's what you would try to do. MAYBE I'll try and comment something of that sort here later. frankly I suppose I already went through All your Good videos. Not even interested at All in the amazon show or its reviews.
Does any other common real world name appear anywhere in the Lore of Middle Earth/Arda? Never heard/read of any other Tom or John or Bob for that matter. That might be another clue/interesting topic of itself.
Many hobbits have names that are common in our world e.g. bob (the hobbit from bree tending to the stables), daisy and may (two of sam's sisters), laura baggins (bilbo's grandmother) etc.
I seem to remember that the name Tom appeared also in Sam's poem about a troll eating a human bone. Of course Sam had met Tom Bombadil when he made the poem so he might have been using his name in a sort of hommage.
I believe Tom was one of the names of the three trolls from the Hobbit, along with Bert and William.
Bill Ferny and Bill the pony.
And Sam marries Rosie Cotton.
Nicknames like Merry, Pippin, Fatty and Old Gaffer are also familiar sounding English words.
Seems to me like the shire is sort of the familiar normal world that an English person would recognise. The people in and around the shire have more normal, common names.
They dress in waistcoats and jackets and trousers and they eat normal British food and tend their gardens and go to the pub.
Also the place names like Hobbiton and Buckland are more like common English sounding place names. The suffixes -ton or -land are very common in English place names. Then you have the Brandywine river, midgewater marshes, the old forest and the barrow downs.
To the hobbits, the rest of the world seems strange but the shire is actually a pretty unusual place for anyone from other parts of middle earth.
Loved this interesting discussion! Sorry for all the people that didn’t appreciate it
In fairness it is clickbait though 😂
Do you know how old the saying is?
// The origin of this saying is attributed to the Roman playwright Plautus. In his play “Persa” the slave Toxilus lures his owner, Dordalus, to buy an expensive slave-girl named Lucris (“profits”), saying, “Nōmen atque ōmen quantīvīs iam est pretī” (“The name and the omen are worth any price”). //
en.wiktionary.org/wiki/nomen_est_omen
// Titus Maccius Plautus (/ˈplɔːtəs/; c. 254 - 184 BC //
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plautus
I always thought that Tom is like Melian but of course is wrong because he is so odd and in his own world .
Words are symbols for things. In the case of names, the word is a symbol foe the continuation of a person.
A name has more meaning, as far as identity goes, to the person who uses it as a symbol for another person than it does for the person it represents.
Tolkien is part of an older moral-and-other-things absolutism. In LotR, names have power over the thing (not really true irl). In Tolkien's views, the name probably has more meaning over the thing than it does to the people who use the name.
In the case if kids growing up to become something, that has more to do with societal expectations about the name being mapped onto the kid.
As far as the occasions where we think we know something about someone based on a name, that is just us allowing ourselves a bad logical process and then propping it up by pointing to the one time we nailed it.
ok. So what language is 'Tom Bombadil' and what do those names mean in that language?
Tom seems pretty clearly to be a name designed to be familiar to Hobbits, not really his “real” name. Bombadil is just…made up lol
@@TolkienLorePodcast I disagree. 1. Tolkien was too diligent. 2. The personality is too close to Bombur the dwarf. Bomb- has some meaning. (possibly merry?)
@aSnailCyclopsNamedSteve is challenge you to come up with ten lines from Bombur in the books. He has very little personality; same with most of the Dwarves. So I doubt there’s a connection.
@@TolkienLorePodcast I cannot post here but his name appears on 33 pages, some sequential. An ebook is searchable. He has more personality than most of the dvarves.
@aSnailCyclopsNamedSteve but can you produce ten spoken lines?
My name is literally Princess bushel of oak trees
Damn my name is John?
It's called metaphysical etymology. You don't name a horse Rebel or a dog Damien unless you want problems. It may just be subconscious energy people put in to the animal when they interact with them, or it could be something more.
Either way, it shouldn't be done unless you just like inviting problems.
Like the pine trees winding a winding road..I've got a name...I've got a name...Also reminds me of a famous person who sang.."My name is Sue..How do you do"...lol
At the beginning of time the creator thought mm an audience would be nice, hence Tom Bombadil 😁 Sorry twisted English sense of humour 🖖
Well Tom did have other names. I think they were listed at the council of Elrond. But if he calls himself Tom then thats likely most accurate.
Or his name in westron, the common language which was the language of his hobbit guests...and English readers
Reminds me of George Carlin's joke that you cannot eat certain foods, simply because of the name. Like yogurt: "YO-GURT. It sounds like it's coming back up!"
There is a lot in a name, for sure. I also wonder if Tom Bombadil meant on a more esoteric level that his identity is hidden in the etymology (or numerology, et cetera) of his name. The name Tom also reminds me of the Nordic spirits known as Tomtar, which look very like Tom Bombadil (short with long beards and funny hats), and are likewise associated with homesteads and barrows. Indeed, almost everything about him seems fairy-like, and it would probably explain his "immunity" to the one ring.
Cronin County Cork Ireland 😊
Tom Bombadill was first, so that eliminates common group identities such as family, village, country, etc.
There is one other with a similar claim. His name was Adam. Curiously, it was Adam, not God, who named all the animals which God created. We might reckon that this was pretty much the first thing Adam did. The naming of things seems pretty important imo and I believe that Tolkein also thought so.
Learning English. Why do you say “Impordent”? I can’t find the word. It it same as important?
Yeah, that’s just my lazy southern accent coming out lol.
@@TolkienLorePodcast Oh got it! Really like your channel!
Tolkien used mythology as inspiration all over his stories.
Aragorn is King Arthur.
The sword that was broken is Excalibur.
Gandalf is Merlin.
Numenor is Atlantis.
Much of the Dwarves and Elves are taken from Norse mythology.
Look at his creation story in the Silmarillion.
When we first see Bombadil he has big boots and a big hat. When we see him at home, he has thick socks and a crown of leaves.
His feet and head are always covered. He knows all about trees and flowers and the water and the sky and things that grow.
He knows all about nature. And he is skilled in music.
Bombadil is Pan
Sounds good but for the fact J.R.R. went to some length to tamp down such interpretations.
@@serenerepose So a whole bunch of coincidences then?
@@davemiller6055 or, let us say such similarities exist within all mythologies, as they all deal with the same core issues of being human -hero/villain, etc. - and we tend to attach significance to that with which we are familiar. A reading of the broad range of mythology engendered by humanity bears this out
Tom Bombadil is J R R Tolkien himself.
When Tom said that, it put me in mind of 'I am that I am.' People interpret that to mean, 'I exist because I exist.' However, if you consider the 'I am' in the sense of Descartes' ergo sum, an 'I am' would be someone who exists, or 'is'. (I exist. I am.) In that sense it would refer to someone who legend refers to and the speaker saying he is that person being referred to in that legend (or prophesy); I am THAT I am, rather than ANOTHER I am. However, this interpretation of that phrase is likely lost on modernity.
SR: You've clearly thought about this topic a good deal. Is this an impertinent question, or can you give us some idea of WHO you consider Tom B. to be, besides himself? Also, WHAT is he?
@@kevinrussell1144 Personally, with no evidence other than a general sense of J.R.R.'s way of thinking and the knowledge he was creating an "English mythology", and by that creating with symbolism in mind, I tell folks I think Tom is a male Mother Nature; the embodiment of the Gestalt of Middle Earth as a whole, or the personification of Middle Earth itself. As such nothing created on this ME could hold dominion over him. Just think of him the way we think of Mother Nature. She didn't create existence. She isn't involved in the push and pull of good and evil. Yet, she's all around us and within everything. Tom abides.
@@serenerepose Thanks for the thoughtful reply. However if Tom is like Mother Nature, not involved in the push and pull of good and evil, why did Tom act to save the Hobbits (to them, a "good deed")? Is this just because it's in the notes of the song, and Tom is simply singing one of his pre-ordained parts?
@@kevinrussell1144 All he did was sing a song to the old willow. Didn't that make it interesting? As you may recall, existence itself was created by song. (Mother Nature sings, too.) And, he did it as a favor to his friend Gandalf. This didn't involve him in the travails of this ME struggle with Sauron (dating back to the first age with Melkor.) Unless, of course, you wish to characterize what the willow did as "evil". It was setting things aright. I didn't say they were inanimate ornaments.
@@serenerepose I'll have to think about this some more. Oh, I've read that part many times trying to figure out what it means on so many different levels. Yes, singing to the old willow was more than interesting, it was disturbing. Those two chapters make me happy; that I know.
What the willow did was spiteful and potentially lethal (like a gardener weeding a vegetable bed), but evil, now you've got me. You could also say Tom "liberated" the wight from bondage, but killed nothing.
Also recall what Goldberry and Tom serve the Hobbits.....quite peculiar.
Thanks for this. You ought to have your own channel. I'd subscribe.
Tom is a powerful Maia who came to Arda at the very beginning probably before even the Valar came. He wa never allied one way or the other with any group. He probably has a direct connection to Try Iluvatar
Maiar are lesser than Valar. Tom is way more powerful than the Maiar. Remember, the ring does not effect him while it totally effects the Maiar.
Not all Maiar are the same though, and how do you know what effect the aging has on other Maiar vs Bombadil?
@@TolkienLorePodcast Didnt you basically agree in the video and said yourself that Tom is unique and nothing we already know - which includes Maiar. He cant be one of them. The ring is just a useless ring like any other for him, which is not what other Maiar like Gandalf or Sauron experience.
Also I think Tolkien himself said, he doesnt know what Tom is. So I think we can safely say he is not a Valar or Maia.
We can’t know for sure, but given what we have to work with I think he has to be a Maia. He lives forever so he’s either an Ainu or an Elf, unless there’s some category in forgetting, and he’s clearly not an Elf or a Vala, so Maia wins by process of elimination. There is the possibility that there are things Tolkien just didn’t account for, of course.
@@TolkienLorePodcast There is an interview from 1964 with Tolkien (its here on youtube) in which Tolkien himself says that Tom is a one of a kind not related to any other being he invented.
I'm Tom Bombadil, and so is my wife!
My name is the good enduring one, hope that describes me well
He is THE ONE.
Wow. My name is Anthony "Anti-Money" is the core root meaning. I have been a civil rights activist against cruel money power. I have shunned money as a goal, and not made a lot! lol. I didn't source my name's meaning until I was in my forties, so it wasn't because I was told early, but, it has described me, that's all I can say. Wow. Nomin est Omen. Wow me out. P.S. I don't go for superstition, but strange things relate wondrously in this existence.
And lol, if you add full name, Anthony Oliver Smith, and take the Scandinavian "Olifar", you get Anti-Money Elf Army Smith. I can't complain for a name, although, my adventures haven't been as epic as it sounds.
Maybe language and writing are magic enough?
Bombadil stated that he was also known as Iarwain.
Elrond said that actually.
@@TolkienLorePodcast Elrond knew whéreof he spoke. I love the way he said, "but even then, he was older than old."
Colonel Flagg is the only one who knows who Tom Bombadil is. And he aint telling.
I'm not 100% positive about this, and still trying to recall where I read it but the Meriadoc and the Peregrin were Frankish tribes/clans of northeastern France, possibly 8th - 10th century.
His power is in being himself true power is knowing this x
Tom Bombabil is the first man, or one of the first men. Gandalf reveals that when Frodo asks if they couldn't give the ring to Tom Bombadil. Tom would eventually succumb to the power of Sauron, even Tom, he would be "last as he was first." And then eternal night would fall or something..
That doesn’t make him a Man though.
My own thought, likely just for my own satsfaction, is that Tom uniquely embodies characteristics of all four races: elves, dwarves, men and hobbits. Physically he is mostly somewhere between men and dwarves, but mentally he is closer to the elves. Oddly, his nearest neigbors are hobbits.
As master, he is servant to none, not even his own internal corruption, thus the ring had no power over him.
Men, more than all others, seem vulnerable to the temptation for the power of the ring, but we also see that men are the race which have the strongest sense of responsibility, unlike merry sing song elves, gold hungry dwarves, or xenophobic homebody hobbits. The greatest sense of responsibility has its flip side of the greatest weakness to go 180° counter to that responsibility.
Tom is a responsible agent of a sort which is the things of his own choosing plus we don't know how much Goldberry completes him, roots him and possibly even sets his bounds. If the ring was inherently Tom's responsibility, like trees are the responsibility of ents for example, then Tom would be the right choice to safeguard, or even destroy the ring, but it does not belong to him.
I agree that Tom was a man, but would add that he was an unfallen man.
@@Scapegoat2t Is there a Fall story particular to Tolkein's fictional world or does he leave that as a mystery for the readers?
@@treebeardtheent2200 It is mentioned in the "Debate of Finrod and Andreth"
Hmmm. Names - did John Wayne become a screen tough guy because his real name was Marion Morrison ?
The Name Yahweh in the Old Testament carries extreme importance because it tells you in many ways who He is. I am, I have been, I will be, I am there for you, I'm faithful, etc. Just as Shakespeare announced: a rose by any other name would still be a rose.
He's referencing God. "I am who I am." Tom Bombadil is the portrayal of God entering into the lives of the Hobbits in ways that don't makes sense.
No, he isn't. That was debunked.
But he was describing himself as God did. He just IS as he is.
could it be possible that tom is you, the reader?
Some say that Tom is Tolkien himself, incarnate in Middle Earth.....
Tom Bombadil may be Eru Illuvatar on area or middle earth. The eldest, not a care in the world. The ring is a joke to him. So much so that he'd forget he was on a world saving quest IF he had been involved. The rings power seemed to be no more than a sneeze of Tom's. Perhaps allowing Eru Illuvatar to experience the mortal plane and/or interact with the theme itself that he himself put forth during the music of the Ainur. On top of allowing him a first hand experience of events unfolding and the individuals involved.
A lot of people have that view but to me Gandalf at the Council of Elrond makes that pretty well impossible to sustain.
@@TolkienLorePodcast perhaps, perhaps. But surely there is much that Tom doesn't willingly share either about himself or the world in general, IF he even knows himself! LOL, could be similar to the Istari in that their memory of the visions of the music of the Ainur have been limited on the mortal realms. Interesting path of thought... Happy holidays
@@superherbs369 Tom is the Spirit of Arda
@@ffxiarcadius Eru in middle earth, spirit of Arda. Remnant of the song of the ainur. I think we're on the same page
@@superherbs369 yeah, there is a music angle to him for sure, his constant singing as he goes about, saving the hobbits from the barrow wight, but he also whistles and seems to make the sun rise.
Goldberry seems to be the Spirit of Water; and earth and water have a relationship.
And at the council of elrond, gandalf mentions bombadil has not the power to destroy the ring, unless that strength resides in the earth itself - something to that effect
Tom can't be caught because you can't control the earth itself - not yet anyway - but if Sauron got the ring, all of middle earth would have been his and eventually Bombadil would Fall . . last, as he was First
well I do feel heartbroken now that you said its clickbait.
It’s not all clickbait lol.
I knew it was clickbait and yet i clicked :D ha.. what is that about :D
21:50
Holy cow dude
even if you do clickbaity crap....i think all of us are gona watch it anyways....coz you know, we all are here for that juicy Tolkien lore :D
...concerning my last name, Drljača(translated means Harrow, agricultural implement)....well, it all started when my ancestor killed his lord, who was siting on a horse, and who forced him to work the land a bit too much ;) i guess thats cupple bits about the last names :D
If you wanted to talk about language and names that's fine, but you shouldn't act like this video had almost anything to do with who Tom bombadil is. That makes this clickbait which is crap.
Tom Bombadil is Tauriel
You need to read two important works. First read The Golden Bough by Sir James George Frazer. Then read Sigmund Freud's lecture on dreams. I had read them before I read The Lord of the Rings. I hope you read those works, and gain a greater understanding into Tolkien's genius.
Frazer and Freud are names to conjure with. May we have a greater insight into your genius?
@@pwmiles56 Read the books like I did.
@@Brvnkaerv I've read Frazer and I have some understanding of Freud.
I'm interested because I think Tolkien's method makes sense as psychoanalysis. Strangeness and Wonder, which he insists on in Fantasy, are, respectively, a state of unresolved associations and an unassociated state.
That might be totally different to your idea. Let's hear it!
@@Brvnkaerv Hi Handy. I had a look at your channel. Brilliant! You know who you are, I don't have to tell you, but I wish I could do that stuff. (I do handmade electronic circuits, the odd craft project like a loom heddle etc). Anyway please don't take my comment as dismissive. I really am interested in what's drawn you to Tolkien. It's the closest I've ever heard to my own reasons.
Long story. I go back a ways with Tolkien. About ten years ago I had some help from a guy called Patrick Curry, a Canadian humanities teacher living in London. Patrick forwarded my work to both Tom Shippey and Verlyn Flieger, but it never got any further than that.
Freud and Frazer ... yes, these are angles. I'd be fascinated to hear any further thoughts you might have.
Profound? That? These books are riddled with incredibly profound statements. I'd like to see a bio on Tolkien, as a philosopher. Genius send an understatement, not to say I take much stock in genius. Not much use, without wisdom.