I think the solution lies in the part about the words of Saruman. Gandalf says that they were "half-heeded at the time." Meaning that when Saruman made that comment, Gandalf listened to parts of it, but not all. In my mind it's pretty clear that at the time Gandalf only focused on the fact that all the Great Rings "had each their proper gem", concluding (correctly) that Bilbo's ring therefore couldn't be one of the Three, Seven, or Nine. However, he didn't think it was the One, because Saruman had already repeatedly assured them that the One was forever lost. So Gandalf, defering to Saruman's expertise, then assumed (incorrecly) that his own initial impression that it was "clearly" a Great Ring was wrong, and that it was in fact a lesser ring. When Gandalf later, during the hunt for Gollum, recalls those words, he focuses for the first time on the second part: the fact that the One's "maker set marks upon it that the skilled, maybe, could still see and read." That's why he then immediatly travels to Minas Tirith for research. Because the other Great Rings were made by the Elves, they presumably had records of their appearance. But the only person, except for Sauron, who had ever held the One, and therefore had been able to give a description of it which Saruman could later repeat, was Isildur. So the timeline is: Gandalf first judges Bilbo's ring to be a Great Ring. Then he is shortly afterwards convinced by the words of Saruman that it must be a lesser ring. However, Bildo's words and actions on his birthday makes Gandalf realise that Bilbo's ring can't possibly be a lesser one, leading him to start hunting for the truth. After failing to catch Gollum, Gandalf remembers that the One Ring could have markings and then travels to Minas Tirith for information. Having gathered that, he takes a detour to Mirkwood to meet the recently captured Gollum whose story supports his suspicions. Finally, he travels to the Shire and confirms it is the One by throwing it into Frodo's fireplace.
I definitely think it was Sauroman's powers of persuasion. I think it's like a sort of hypnosis or inception where Sauroman subtlety plants an idea in someone's mind and the victim just accepts it to be true. I think the clue from the book is that Gandalf says at the council of Elrond that he had been "lulled" by the words of Sauroman. This suggests to me that Sauroman put a spell on him. This is why Gandalf warns everyone later on to beware of his voice. He knows from personal experience how dangerous it is.
I've always thought there was at least an element of "I don't want to consider that possibility" to how long it took Gandalf to make that discovery. It's a relatively common phenomenon for people to live in a state of denial about looming problems. So, I've always assumed that Gandalf was subconsciously talking himself out of that possibility due to just how terrible the implications would be. Not sure if there's much textual support for that theory. Thats just how my brain filled that hole.
This is pretty much my interpretation as well. Gandalf may have had all the information he needed to figure out Bilbo's ring was The One very early, but simply didn't put 2 and 2 together, because as wise and powerful as Gandalf is, he's not perfect.
Gandalf knew from Bilbo's initial story that Golum thought and was built like a hobbit, but had to travel far to verify such folk had lived near Anduin. Like Butterbur, one thing drives out another, just on a bigger scale.
Perhaps Gandalf was behaving humbly, and meant that it was obvious (in an absolute way) that it was a Great Ring, but wasn't obvious to him, back at the time?
I'm writing a book and I can't tell you how many times I've seen that I haven't quite explained small things like this which I could explain only through an infodump. I have reasons but I can't just dump it all on my readers. At some point, willing suspension of disbelief and a willingness to trust the author and enjoy the mystery of not knowing have to supercede your critical eye. That threshold is different for every person but our culture today has raised it far beyond acceptable levels.
Sometimes a footnote or an appendix is the best way to handle these things. Leaving the information out altogether can cause lots of problems, but if you can’t work it into the story directly placing it in a footnote or appendix is the best way.
The answer to the question is just another question-"Why should Gandalf expect any magical ring to be the one ring?" It's only our focus on the story told that makes it seem obvious. No one would really expect a magical ring to be the one ring in-world.
Precisely. It's insane to assume that a random ring Bilbo found in a cave is the mythical One Ring to rule them all that will decide the fate of Middle Earth, especially when your trusted friend and wise expert is saying it definitely is long gone by now.
The only one who felt the Ring, when Sauron put it on, was Celebrimbor, the maker of the rings of power. And after he learns about that, he goes out and gives Galadriel one ring and Cirdan 2. Cirdan gives the two rings to Elrond and Gandalf later on. So no! Galadriel didn't have the ring when Sauron put it on for the first time. Cause all three were with Celebrimbor at that moment in time.
I say Gandalf is is talking about the ring in hindsight, "it was apparent Gollum had a great ring from the start" is him basically saying hindsight is 2020. Or "I should have seen it but didn't." Or this could be referring to a dwarven ring , which was not one of the lesser rings, but a "great" ring which would have been harmless due to Sawron not having the one so Gandalf saw no harm in it. Finally, on a different note, Gandalf and the other holders of the Three may not have sensed the use of the one ring simply because they A:Did not know the presence of bilbo, or smeegal, and B: where not looking for it directly. Gandalf would not have probed Bilbo for Bildo was his friend. And Galadrial never met Bilbo as far as I can remember, where as kelabrimbor knew who sowron was and so felt his presence immediately. Once Gandalf, Elrone and Galadrial where activily searching for the one ring, they clearly felt when it was being used.
I mean part of it is also they are also just not strong enough to reach out much in terms of those holding the one and their not trying to reach out like Galadriel says to Frodo you never tried and it would break him if he tried. Though Frodo can see past the way Galadriel hid her ring from Sam so it has some measure of reaching out. Similar to how Sam could put on the ring and sneak into Mordor and not be noticed by Sauron and as soon as Frodo claims Sauron knows and immediately looks over sensing it, aka how you use the ring and why effect what kind of direct level of sense they have
I think it's possible that already the invisibility effect gave the Ring away as a Ring of Power. If the extended lifespan can be understood as an accumulation of the same factor that makes mortals invisible - that is, to tie them to the Unseen - and combine that with the reasonable assumption that the lesser rings did not extend lifespans (Gandalf implies that), then you would assume that neither did the lesser rings confer invisibility.
True, but it is all based on guesses by Mithrandir. The so-called "lesser rings" must have had some magical qualities or else they would have been a waste of time forging. Maybe making mortals disappear was something the more advanced ones could do.🤔
I think you can distinguish between four groups of rings. There are rings which are just common jewelry, no matter how beautiful, or storied. The Ring of Barahir that Aragorn wore falls into this category (even though it was made by a Ñoldo). Then there were the lesser magical rings made by the elves of Eregion prior to their tutelage by Sauron. There were the great magical rings made by the elves of Eregion with knowledge gained from Sauron and either with (the seven and the nine) or without (the three) Sauron's direct help in their forging. Finally their is the one ring. Linguistically, each of these groups of rings other the first can be called a great ring relative to the less powerful rings. Thus, when talking about rings in general, the lesser magical rings would be properly called Great Rings; even though when talking about magical rings in general, you would call them lesser rings, and call only the twenty major rings Great Rings; just as when talking only of those twenty, you would refer to only the one ring as the Great Ring. Given this, I think the best resolution of the conundrum is your original one - that Gandalf originally thought the ring was one of the lesser magical ring; but when he says that it was clear from the start that it was a Great Ring, he is merely distinguishing it from non-magical rings. I base this conclusion on the facts that: 1) Initially, when it was clear to him that it was a Great Ring, all he knew of it was that it rendered Bilbo invisible; which is not enough to distinguish it from other lesser rings; 2) In Gandalf's view, even the lesser rings were perilous to mortals. It follows that if the ring were one of the seven, it would be very perilous to Bilbo, and Gandalf would not have rested on the issue so long if that was his belief. The seven, after all, are rings of approximately the same level of power as those that turned men into Nazgul - which is hardly an outcome Gandalf would have accepted for Bilbo; and 3) Only the lesser rings and the one ring were unadorned. I would agree that this solution is not ideal given the language Tolkien uses, but also think that no resolution is perfect, and this does the least violence to the story, and Gandalf's character.
That’s actually a good point, because it does seem Gandalf is contemplating Bilbo not having a Great Ring (one from the rhyme) with his comment that he came from a long lived family.
@@BanjoSick given that it was made by a Ñoldo, it seems possible that it did. Unless there is evidence that it doesn’t, we can’t rule out that it had some kind of magical power, even if it was very basic (like hypothetically providing light and better vision in darkness and warning the wearer of foes, similar to elvish weapons).
@@JohnGeorgeBauerBuis In the old Middle Earth RPG the powers of Barahirs Ring were: 70th level Ring of Dragon-warding; if held before a Dragon, those Drakes who fail an RR return home for an indefinite period (e.g. 1-100 months or years), fearing the place where the ring is so used; x6 PP enhancer (6 times the magic resources). So there its extremely powerful. So Aragorn should have gone to Erebor instead of Bilbo, haha.
Galadriel could have got knowledge about how many times Frodo had used the ring from Elladan and Elrohir visiting Lórien between the counsel of Elrond and Frodo's departure from Rivendell two month later. The sons of Elrond visited Galadriel and told her about a fellowship soon comming with the One ring. Perhaps they gave her detailed information about what Gandalf and Frodo had been telling during the counsel.
I can think of three obvious reasons why Gandalf might have hesitated to consult Saruman about Gollum's Ring: - As mentioned in the video, it could have been the promptings of divine providence - Another possibility is that it could have been the One Ring, subtly influencing those who know of it to keep it secret (thereby leading to its own undoing) - Or, it could be that, even if only subconsciously, Gandalf smells a rat in Saruman's apparent lapse: how is it that the Wizard who specialises in Ringlore could have not only mistaken the fate of one of the Twenty, but done so so completely as to be convinced of the false fate without any hint of uncertainty or doubt? There's clearly something wrong there...
There are a couple of comments in the books about how the Shire is unusually 'forgettable' to outsiders. I think Gandalf compares the 'magic' of the Shire to the magical protections of Bombadil's forest (maybe it was Rivendell, or Lothlorien?) at some point. Sauron, after all his years, had never even heard of the Shire... A magic ring kept by a happy, tiny old hobbit under a hill -- just the kind of thing you'd forget about, in a world as magical and dangerous as Middle Earth. Add in a bit of indirect, Manwe magic (to make that specific region especially forgettable), and you have a place that all sides -- good and evil -- tend to overlook.
It was basically impossible for Gandalf to know it was the one ring and not one of the lesser rings. Lesser Rings being of the same program as the Greater Rings should still be corruptive, so Bilbo being corrupted isn't a shock. Invisibility shouldn't also be a shock as it might be the intended design or an odd quirk of the ring. Bilbo having an extended lifespan is also something to be expected. The only traits that are undeniably of the One Ring are the invisible signs on the ring itself and the ability to dominate others. Since neither had made themselves clear, the only option even with vague premonitions is to leave things as they are. People are arguing from the conclusion. Of course if Gandalf acted rashly and taken the ring to test it, things would have worked out better. But what if he was wrong (as even Gandalf could be sometimes)? If it was a lesser ring and he made a big fuss then not just would his friendship with Bilbo be ruined, but also Sauron would believe that the One Ring had been found. Sauron would have plunged the world into war and no amount of oops it wasn't the One Ring would persuade Sauron otherwise. Hundreds of thousands would die due to Gandalf being an idiot. Saruman the world's foremost authority on rings said the One Ring was gone. No traits Bilbo showed demanded it to be the One Ring. As such the only wise thing Gandalf could do was watch and wait. If it was the one ring that fact would make itself known in time as it eventually did. EDIT: As for Gandalf's clearly a great ring comment, this can be explained as a hindsight is 2020 comment. Once you know that Gollum has been alive for several hundred years you know you are dealing with a great ring. Gandalf didn't know Gollum was all that until much later. By then Gandalf already knew that the One Ring was in the shire. He just double checked his work by going to Gondor and then proved his work to Frodo by throwing the ring in the fire.
One thing that I feel really affected Gandalf was he didn't want it to be the one ring. Because if it was it would be a likely disaster for the Free Peoples. Especially the hobbits. It's very common for people to avoid the unpleasant truths that are staring them in the face.
But finding the ring was the best thing the Free Peoples could ever have hoped for. Sauron without the ring wins just by military strength and lack of a unified opposition. The reason he wanted to get the ring back so badly was because of his fear someone like Galadriel or Aragorn would try to claim it and be successful. It was his only weakness left.
@@alexanderprahauser1261 I don't think that holds with everything Gandalf, Eldrond, et. al. say about The Ring; it corrupts, they fear it, and if Sauron gets it, they have /no/ chance. In spite of Sauron's military strength, there's still a hope that you can defeat him, and, ultimately, with something so powerful, there's just no 'knowing' what's going to happen. I think Steven B is right on the money; part of Gandalf knows it's important to find the truth about The Ring; he can't ignore that responsibility, curiosity, and compulsion, but another part fears what he might find. That conflict is expressed both in that he pursues the truth, but it takes him a great deal of time to do it. And I think if The Ring was indeed the best thing the Free Peoples could ever have hoped for, no one more than Gandalf would have known that, and if he did know that, he would have pursued the truth about The Ring more swiftly. The fact that he didn't, to me at least, is proof that The Ring was not the best thing for the Free Peoples.
@@alexanderprahauser1261 Finding the One Ring gave the Free Peoples a chance of victory, but the One Ring being active again meant that the end was near - the time for Gandalf (and the other Istari) to fulfill the purpose for which they were sent to Middle Earth and have to either depart, or forsake their commissions.
@@danielnabben8480 it is worth noting that Sauron was defeated before, and wearing the One Ring at that! So defeating Sauron *with* the ring was not impossible, just very difficult, although it is true that Gondor would have had to abandon their coastline to the raiding Corsairs to bring their full military might to bear against Sauron, and likely would have wanted to have the dwarves and elves muster out every last soldier as well, just to make sure.
@@JohnGeorgeBauerBuis The Elves were much diminished at the end of the Third Age, and no longer held the strength to defeat a Ring-empowered Sauron even with the aid of Men and Dwarves. But they probably could have defeated him without the ring in play, as you noted.
These videos and others like it always make me question what I have taken from reading the books. I always thought Gandalf needed to let time pass to see if it affected Bilbo's lifespan. which would takes years to see. Also I never assumed that the 20 great rings talked about in the poem were the only great rings. They were just the ones made to enhance the beings but because of Sauron's corruption they used the weaknesses to enslavr (or that was the intent). The 9 to corrupt the Gift of Man and the 7 to turn love of gems and metals into greed.
@@TolkienLorePodcast Actually @Jackrabbit991 might have a point. It would explain why the first words out of Gandalf's mouth when he sees Bilbo for the first time since The Hobbit is, "You haven't aged a day..." That could be Gandalf confirming a suspicion he's had since the end of The Hobbit. While Hobbits may have long lifespans, they still AGE. And Gandalf would have to wait a long time to see if Bilbo ages, specifically BECAUSE of their long lifespans.
In Galdalphs defense...there are many magic in that world and none of them should be taken lightly....One could wonder if Bilbo got a Good Luck ring or one that gives natural hair growth. Either way, theres no way Mithrandir could know!
I think that Gandalf always had a suspicion, but did want to move toward rash action until he confirmed it. He always had a trust of Hobbits beyond that of other races, and new that they were overlooked by those of power for the time being. There was a reason that he impressed on the Dunedain to protect the shire. Also, he did not want to take the ring for himself and he did not entirely trust Sauroman. He felt it safest in humble hands and only risked to move it when the time pressed him.
Great videos! After watching both videos, I find this argument to be more convincing for Gandalf’s path to discovering the true nature of Bilbo’s magic ring. I think Gandalf, like Tolkien, assumed that this wasn’t the ring that it was but after much research and wandering (or writing in the case of Tolkien) it proved to be the great ring - the One Ring. Gandalf being persuaded by Saruman makes sense given that it wasn’t until Saruman trapped Gandalf and locked him in the tower at Orthanc that he discovered Saruman’s treachery and union with Sauron. He naturally assumed Saruman’s argument that The Ring was lost in the sea to be the truth, so it would have been impossible for this to have been the Ring of Power. The jewels on nineteen of the twenty great rings seems to have been either overlooked or forgotten by Gandalf probably because, in his mind, this cannot be Sauron’s ring because it was lost to the sea; therefore, if it is a great ring it must be a dwarven ring or one of the nine given to men. On a different topic, what do you say in your intro and outro and what do they mean (I’m afraid I know very little of Tolkien’s languages, although I find them to be fascinating)?
When Gandalf is in Minas Tirith before he returns to Frodo, he reads a document that tells Gandalf how to test the ring by heating it up. That is the final piece in the puzzle for Gandalf
I recently discovered your channel and love what you do. Just want to thank you for your work. I really enjoy the more conversive approach to your videos.
Do we even know for sure that Gandalf knew the entire time how many rings of power there even were? Is it possible only Saruman knew that and Gandalf discovered quite late through his research there were just those 20?
Pretty sure he knew of the number of Great Rings. He was aware of the rhyme and says Saruman had told them of each having its proper stone. H forgot the bit about the stones for a while it seems but there’s no reason to think he forgot the number.
Stealth, I think the Ring betrayed Isildur and when Smeagol got his hands on it, it eventually corrupted him but sought to hide where he did until Sauron reached out once more. Bilbo picked it up, but his compassionate nature made him more resistant to the ring's allure so by the time it could alert Sauron the Council had driven Sauron out of his tower and back into Mordor unaware the ring had resurfaced. From Bilbo's stories Gandalf asked for help investigating and I think the Rangers learned of Gollum's resurfacing and learned who he was hunting for and probably got him to reveal his true name so they could double check the details. Gollum evades them ending up in Mordor where he confesses to the Nazgul. I think it was Gollum's capture that caused Gandalf to rush to Frodo's side to confirm once and for all if that is the One Ring.
I realized that the full ring poem must have been written after the rings were made because, Sauron was unaware of the Three Elven Rings prior to wearing the One, and the elves were unaware of the One until Sauron wore it for the first time.
One reason Gandalf is going to try to get his evidence down cold, hence his research trip to Minas Tirith: at this point, he probably thinks he is going to have to convince the Wise, and that Saruman is still going to argue the Ring went down the river to the sea. Even assuming Saruman is on their side, and just believes this, Gandalf is going to have to have a very good case to convince the Council that he’s right, and not the expert on Ring lore. In addition, even a good Saruman is probably very persuasive. So Gandalf may have to contend with that even under the best case scenario. Of course, having the case this on lock by the Council of Elrond ended up being good too, since he had to convince a bunch of people with little Ring lore knowledge that this was the One Ring.
Just repeating something I said previously, Gandalf not Realising it is not a Plot Hole, even if it is the inevitable conclusion. Anything that relies on a character's understanding or misunderstanding is characterisation. Perhaps he, wise as he is, should have realised it. But he didn't. He did not put it together. We can come up with discussions to explain why but it is simply a plot point that a Smart character did not realise something in a moment of dumbness. Gandalf proves he is not infallible. I, as a reasonably smart person, sometimes do not realise things that are plain as day. It once took me until my third date with a Girl, and her referring to our "previous dates" to realise she might be into me. I hadn't realised they were dates. Point is that Smart people can be dumb, and unless the story pretends it is not dumb then it is not a plot hole. It is someone being dumb. That is it.
I always thought of the "The other rings all have gems" thing as a plothole. Thanks for reminding me of the timeline. The problem is that in hindsight, we might take some information for granted that became later on. I never considered that this detail about the rings would bei either unknown to Gandalf or have slipped from his mind. But it is possible. I think Galadriel really felt that Frodo had put on his ring. There was something different for Frodo than it was for Bilbo and Gollum: He knew what this ring was. IMO it doesn't matter that he didn't actually try to bind someone's mind. The very fact that he knew that this ring was more than something that could turn you invisible was enough for him to tap involuntarily into the more corrupting effects of the ring. I became more convinced of this by the effect it had when he used it Amon Hen. As for what greater rings are or not: You are right that I can't picture either Tolkien or Gandalf mixing those meanings up. However, at one time he was talking to Frodo explaining something that was way over his head, the other time in front of powerful people who partially already know about the lore of the rings. I think he is using the term relatively to whatever he was talking to. I don't think there is a general definition of the term Greater Ring for the people in Middle Earth. I do not think the "lesser rings" (in the sense of not the 9+7+3+1) have any tangible magical effects like invisibility. Tolkien used obvious magic sparingly in his works and only very few people are capable of showing it. If there were other people around with the capability of turning invisible, something in the ages they existed would have made history eventually. But they are never even referenced beyond that they existed at all. So yes, Gandalf must have suspected it was one of the 9+7+3+1 almost from the start. My guess is also that he considered it to be one of the 7. Maybe not all were destroyed, maybe Sauron gave one away. As for the 9: The Nazgul didn't carry their rings, did they? They were with Sauron. Theoretically he could give them away again. What that would do to the corresponding Ringwraith could be anybody's guess, but mine is that at the very least Sauron would lose some amount of control over him but more likely that Nazgul would eventually fade away completely. So I think your line of reasoning here is still sound.
The Nazgul do carry their rings with them... it would be the only way they are still alive. If Sauron took the ring back from one of them, he would die immediately, right?
Not necessarily. There are conflicting statements on this-in one place it says the Nazgul hold the rings, in another it says Sauron holds them. The latter could be interpreted to mean they’re under his control rather than direct physical possession, but in either case I think since the wraiths are what they are because of the power of the One, only it’s destruction would lead to their own final death.
@@TolkienLorePodcast My impression was that they really didn't carry their rings with them because Frodo would probably have seen or noticed them at Weathertop. Okay, they could have been hidden under gloves, but I thought that this would have been too much of an opportunity for a writer to show them off at this point. Edit: Also, that would likely mean that they would have found one of the Nine in the remains of the Witch King after his demise on the Pellenor Fields. Edit2: It doesn't really matter. I am sure neither Gandalf nor Saruman would have known if the Nazgul still carried the rings. It's not like they could have asked.
Yeah, Galadriel read Frodo's and the rest of the fellowship's minds. Galdalf for sure suspected the ring could be the one for Gollum's lifespan, but I'm not sure when he staring being aware of that in the timeline. He clearly knows Gollum exists from Bilbo's account later, but before that, I'm not sure - or don't remember him mention it anywhere. It could be that he later (as is in LotR) learns about Gollum and retroactively think "so, he used the ring, which is why he is alive", making it retroactively obvious starting from the time he learns a lot about Gollum.
Good defense; I am convinced. Minor nitpick: Nazgul were active in taking Minas Ithil after the fall of Angmar, but since this basically happened within the same generation, no biggie.
@@brandtbollers3183 This was still the time when (Dunedain) Gondorians lived for a long time. Earnil died when he was 160 years old. 27 years in that context is still within the same generation. :)
Wasn't the One in a dormant state up until it came into Frodo's possession? Wouldn't that clear up why Gollum and Bilbo's usage of it went unnoticed by Gandalf and/or Galadriel?
I would say she does it because in part because of mind reading in part of the nature of the three to connect to the one similar to how Frodo can see past how she is hiding the ring and her ablity to look into his spirt to see how much effect it has on fading him in addition to knowing about the morgol blade
I feel like the wearers of the Three were able to perceive when Frodo put the ring on because by then they knew for sure that the ring had been found and were open to the perception. Gandalf, Elrond, and Galadriel were all very perceptive beings and could sense many things. The original wearers of the three perceived the existence of the one, as you said, Sauron set to work at once wielding its power, essentially blowing a large trumpet blast. I do agree though that Galadriel probably divined Frodo's three uses of the ring by reading his mind and memory.
Saruman invoked the precedent of the silmaril that was lost in the sea, a fact decisively agreed upon at all levels of the mythology. Maybe gandalf's gut could've led him to ask bombadil's opinion about saruman's assertion.
@Tolkien Lore I just discovered your channel and its great I watched almost everything twice. Question? I always wondered why if Sauruman was the ring expert because he studied its lore and history so much why didnt he just make a ring of power for himself? With him and Sauron both being maiar wouldnt his have been similar in power ?
Hey. I'm not @Tolkien Lore, but lemme take a crack at this.I believe Sauron was originally called Mairon, and he studied craft under the Vala of craft, Aulë, as an apprentice. This is where he learned to craft things. Curunir, Saruman, was also a Maia, but specifically an Istar, a wise one, a wizard, sent by the Valar to help in the fight against Sauron. Technically, both are Maia and would've been similar in power but Sauron had learnt the skill and Saruman had not. It probably would've taken years to learn the skill, if he could've went back to Valinor and convinced Aulë to teach him to craft, but this would've been pretty suspicious, don't you think? I think Saruman was just been opportunistic.
It clearly states in the books that Saruman DID research making rings of power and did make some. Gandalf specifically mentions him wearing them when he visited Isengard after meeting Radagast.
@@simonmorris4226 True, I had forgotten about that. He probably didn't get the power he wanted out of them though ; not having the experience and skill that Sauron had.
With respect to Vegetaryan, Saruman was also a Maia in the service of Aulë. In contrast, Gandalf was a Maia of Irmo, who concerned himself (as did his brother and sister) in the consolation of the spirit. Thus it was natural that Saruman should take particular interest in a matter of craft, while Gandalf always concentrated on encouraging others. However, just because Sauron, Saruman and Gandalf were all Maia does not mean they are equal in power. A Maia is just an angelic being who entered Middle Earth, but who is less powerful than the Valar. That allows for a very wide disparity in power, and though Gandalf is accounted the wisest of the Maia, neither he nor Saruman are among the most powerful, while Sauron was definitely one of the most powerful. Further, the Istari emptied themselves of some of their power as part of their mission. (Think of the difference between Gandalf the Grey and Gandalf the White). As Sauron put a large part of his power into the ring, for it to be effective, it would not be possible for a less powerful being to make an equally powerful ring.
Love your channel. (I think Sauron would make a great sith.) At around 23:ish minutes in you talk about the nazgul being "in action", but is it actually stated anywhere that they, in some semi-physical manner, actually carry the nine rings? Perhaps Sauron just used the rings to get them "hooked", and now as they are "bound to his will" he could give the "men-rings" to other men and start making even more nazgul. (Unless he thought it to be too much work for too little margin benefit.)
It might also be that Gandalf in a way foresaw that Frodo would have already used the ring once when arriving in Bree... Actually, this seems to be the only explanation, if the word “again” wasn’t simply wrong....
The primary purpose of the letter is to tell Frodo to leave Bag End immediately. It doesn't really make sense that Gandalf would foresee Frodo using the ring between leaving Bag End and receiving the letter. It could merely be an intuitive assumption by Gandalf that turns out to be correct. Another interpretation is that Gandalf writes "again" because he has already told Frodo not to use it.
Great video. A thought about Gandalf's potential psychic awareness of Frodo's ring usage: when Frodo was on Amon Hen, Gandalf was aware of him and was able to communicate with him very quickly saying "Fool! Take it off!". Do you have any thoughts about this perhaps implying an earlier psychic connection? Or perhaps this was since Gandalf was White at the time of the Amon Hen encounter? Or perhaps this encounter is explained by the usage of the ring at a place of power? I do think that it is important that in any aspect of the ring's use that a distinction is made between actively 'using' the ring, which according to Galadriel would require a strong mind or intense training, and simply 'wearing' the ring. Really enjoying the discussions your videos bring about, keep them up!
I think the use at a place of power is certainly significant. Frodo is actually granted sight beyond the usual there so that is likely what caught Gandalf’s attention, or else it was Sauron’s activity in searching for Frodo that did.
Gandalf was following the rest of the Fellowship with a delay at that time. Tolkien wrote notes on the off-page movement of characters (such as how the orc parties who attacked the Fellowship came into place) and I think for Gandalf it says that he stood atop a hill in Fangorn forest and could see all the way to Amon Hen. Not sure if he literally saw them from that distance or if he projected himself into a bird's-eye perspective. Once again, one of the most epic battles in the novel happens mostly off-page.
Gandalf was simply using "Great Ring" in an improper sense to refer to a powerful magic ring, not exclusively to refer to the 20 rings of power; Tolkien uses "Great Ring" in the same sense in the preface to refer to a hypothetical Great Ring of Saruman. The reason Gandalf immediately knew the ring was powerful (he probably assumed it was one of the last made before the 16), even before knowing anything about Gollum or how Bilbo got it, is stated shortly prior, where he says that Great Rings extend the lives of mortals and can be used to turn invisible, both of which are very extraordinary powers given how invisibility was achieved. So the moment he learned it was a ring of invisibility, he knew it was a very powerful ring and it was very extraordinary that it was found in the misty mountains.
Even with your explanations, I see one thing being a bit strange: Gandalf mentions he was quite surprised to see Bilbo not aging, and even explained it to itself (he comes from a long-lived family). Why would he think such way, being sure that Bilbo's ring is a Great Ring? All of them prolonged lives of mortals, this is how the Nazguls work after all. I think the only way of reconcile this is to assume that Gandalf was deluding himself: He knew that reasonably it's a Great Ring, but still hoping that the reality is not so bad.
I'm not convinced if Gandalf initially suspected a Great Ring, because although Gandalf wouldn't forcefully take the ring from Bilbo, I think if he told Bilbo early on that he could become a wraith, Bilbo would willingly give it up.
Galadriel could reach out and sense actively, using her ring. Though she did not sense the other uses because she is not trying to find the ring because it is gone.
Sauron could maybe have disguised a dwarf ring as a magic ring as a trap for an inquisitive scholar experimenting on magic rings not expecting to have to dezl with that much corruption
Saruman's the ring expert so a better question why did Gandalf NOT ask Saruman instead as he would have been more likely to recognize it? My guess is that after the events of the Hobbit Gandalf was wary of involving the Council until he knew for sure. I think Bilbo's reluctance to relinquish the ring was the alarm bell that caused him to look more closely and why when he returned and met Frodo took the envelope with the ring and cast it into the fire. Movie wise I took Gandalf's expression as being relieved there was no writing turned to horror when Frodo mentioned the writing appearing because of the fire.
Also if it was one of the seven, it would be the dwarven ring, so it would most likely enhance greed, so Bilbo and Smeagol running around saying this is MY ring, would make sense (also Bilbo got pretty rich after he got the ring :D )
I've listened to this and the other video about three times now. Great work. I still think there are contradictions in 'The Shadow of the Past'. Regarding Bilbo and Gollum's stories, Gandalf says 'the lies were too much alike'. But in 2941 Gandalf couldn't know Gollum's story was a flat-out lie. All he had was some second-hand mumblings about a grandmother and a birthday present. I suggest as a class exercise, rewrite the chapter to preserve the threat of the Ring but leave open that it was one of the lesser ones. Hard to do!
I think we can explain that as Gandalf just omitting the necessary verbiage to make clear that he is simultaneously talking about what he knew in the more and less distant pasts. Ie it’s only a contradiction in the most technical sense. What I think is harder to explain is his apparent belief that Bilbo might not have a great ring (after all, he is from a long lived family....) and his statement that Gollum clearly had a great ring “from the first”.
Another fun detail is that Sméagol's relatives uses the exact same "name" on him as Bilbo uses, not knowing anything about his past: Gollum. It could of course be explained by the actual sound - perhaps it sounded "gollum" so clearly. But Gollum never introduces himself as "Gollum". He just gargles it. It would be more likely that Bilbo should call him for example "Cave man", "the cave creature", "Slimy", etc. Not a big issue, but sometimes I find that Tolkien is putting some "knowings" in the characters mind, so to speak. And, of course, it's a GREAT name. And it is a fantasy storie. (It's more strange that rings could make you invisible ...)
Lots of holes in the plot holes.The one for me is if Gandalf suspected that the ring was The ring and didn't fully trust Saruman he could surely have talked to Elrond or Galadriel the bearers of the other two elven rings?
@@TolkienLorePodcast none probably, might have made things worse. If they acted earlier then the fellowship would have been different, Gollum wouldn't have followed Frodo etc.
This issue is so confusing that I wanted to revisit your videos. Some people suggested that Gandalf either meant to say "with hindsight, it should have been clear from the beginning that it was a Great Ring" or that Great Ring refers to any magical ring. Both explanations kind of work, but I don't like the extra assumptions they rely upon.
We need to beg Joshua to do an updated video containing all his main points and arguments. It was overwhelming for me to watch Part 2 just once. I need to watch it 3-4 times and take notes.😅
@@TolkienLorePodcast I think you have way more than enough detail in the two videos you made. I am just lazy and want one condensed video with your key points 😅. I think drawing attention to the topic would be great whether you make a Part 3 or not. Thanks for answering all of my questions. I appreciate it.🙏😁
Is it possible that gollum did not trigger "feeling" because Sauron was still much diminished in power himself, regardless of the ring. As time has passed he has come back to strength - it is part of saurons life force/whatever and between frodo getting it and leaving the shire he has gained a decent amount of power compared to prior? If that makes sense.
Didn't frodo use the ring a fourth time after Lothlorien? Aman Sul... On a chair and didn't he connect with sauron who spoke to him saying he could see him? Right before the fellowship officially broke up... So more than three total times.
Why did Bilbo not alert the ring wraiths whenever he put it on? The only counter I could see is when gandalf said it has re awoken or something like that
Gandalf should have known that if Bilbo's Ring were one of the Great Rings, it had to be the One Ring because Dwarves don't disappear when they put on their Rings, so why would Gandalf assume Hobbits could or would? When the Nazgul first put on their Rings, did they disappear? I don't think so. That means that the 16 and the Elven Rings don't make anyone disappear, although they do in the Amazon Prime Video series🙄, so why would Gandalf believe they could make Hobbits disappear? Is it all based on Gandalf believing Hobbits were lesser beings so that all of the Rings of Power could make them disappear? It seems racist.
‘A mortal, Frodo, who keeps one of the Great Rings, does not die, but he does not grow or obtain more life, he merely continues, until at last every minute is a weariness. And if he often uses the Ring to make himself invisible, he fades:’ all great rings cause invisibility based on this passage. Only Men (including Hobbits) seem to experience this however, because Elves are already simultaneously in both the seen and unseen worlds, and Dwarves are too resilient to be affected. The Dwarven Rings were not *made for Dwarves;* they were just 7 of the 16 that Sauron gave to the Dwarves. All were originally meant for elves.
@@TolkienLorePodcast You posted, "And if he often uses the Ring to make himself invisible, he faded." Gandalf mentioned the "fading" part. I am bothered by the "disappearing" part. Why would Gandalf think that one of the Nine Rings that didn't make men disappear until they had completely faded or one the Dwarven Rings, which clearly don't make Dwarves disappear would make Hobbits disappear? Look at it this way: Would wearing a Nazgul Ring or a Dwarven Ring make Frodo disappear? Gandalf says it is possible. I don't think so. I think he should've known that Ring was the One Ring, or at least assumed it was.
@Enerdhil Gandalf says it in the quote: “if he often uses the Ring [in context, the Great Ring he happens to possess] *to make himself invisible*… Clearly he’s contemplating the use for the purpose of invisibility. But what examples does he have of permanent fading? Only the Nazgul. Ergo we must conclude that somehow he knows that they became invisible when wearing their rings and through repeated use became invisible permanently. There’s no other way to explain what he’s saying, unless you take the approach that he’s making stuff up for no apparent reason.
Is the most likely explanation that it is a mistake by Tolkien? Doesn't he say in the prologue that he noticed a lot of errors himself but hadn't corrected them? Forgive me I am too lazy to go upstairs to get the book.
I feel this relevant. Upon finishing another read through, an idea/theory kept creeping into my mind. The nature of the one rings' power, which is somewhat vague in my interpretation, seems to be dependent on the fact that the other rings exist and possess their own, again, somewhat vague, powers. The power of the one ring is arguably its control of the other rings and their wearers. The crux of the theory - wouldn't the destruction/abandonment of the Elven rings diminish the power of the one? If so, are not the Elves/Gandalf guilty of the same sin as Isildur? Further evidence of their weakness/folly is they never suggest this path as option nor do they even attempt it to see if this is true or even possible or maybe it will weaken Sauron. They even cling to a hope that their powers will not diminish upon the one's destruction. Then upon the destruction its implied that they do in fact lose their powers. So maybe 🤔
Well, yes and no. The One was designed to control the others, so in that sense the destruction of all the other rings would lessen the power of the One as a weapon. But at the time of the story it’s clear that Sauron will eventually win even without the One, and since much of his power went into it he would be “whole” if he regained it and thus be more powerful as a general matter, so in the long run destroying the other rings couldn’t bring victory. Only destroying the One could do that.
When did Gandalf really know Gullum? Gandalf says it was obvious that Gullum had a great ring, but Gandalf never met Gullum in the hobbit. I want to say he didn’t meet with Gullum until after Bilbo left the Shire. By that point Gandalf had already seen the influence the ring had on Bilbo and when he talked with Gullum he quickly learned he had to have had a great ring. I mean before he talks to him all he knows about Gullum is what Bilbo told him. But it was Gandalf that learned Gullum was even a halfling.
Is it necessarily true that the one, the three, the seven, and the nine are the only great rings? If Gandalf thinks that he has accounted for all those great rings, and then he discovers that Bilbo has yet another great ring, then the logical conclusion seems to be that someone else at some other time somehow made yet another great ring, perhaps with no association to Sauron. Even if there truly are no other great rings in all the world, would there be any way for Gandalf to know that, especially when he's presented with the evidence of an apparently unknown great ring popping up?
Gandalf acknowledges "lesser rings" at The Council of Elrond but doesn't go into great detail about them. I believe he calls them 'an essay in the craft' of smithing, implying they were practice rings made before they went all in with the rings of power. So my assumption is that Gandalf thought Bilbo had found a lesser ring because, other than not ageing, Bilbo didn't seem to change in any of the ways a greater ring would suggest he should. He was amiable as ever, remained just as "partial to his vittles" (a trait that, should it change in a hobbit, would be a cause for concern), and he was charitable and good even in possession of the ring. That's not to mention that Saruman had convinced Gandalf that the one ring was lost forever. I'm willing to be corrected on any points I've made but that's why I believe Gandalf wasn't overly concerned about Bilbos ring. Until the night Bilbo left the Shire of course but by then Gandalf had more suspicions than ever..
It would be extremely unlikely for another great ring to exist. All rings except those created by Celebrimbor alone were created by Sauron, and he demanded and got them back once the elves took them off, so a further ring would probably have been noted and resulted in either another Nazgul or a greedy dwarfen king. I guess the latter is still somewhat possible, but would not change anything said in the video. Would another ring by Celebrimbor be possible? Perhaps, but it would have been given to his elves, so at least the other ring-bearers should know of its existence. Could someone completely different have made another ring? If it were one of the smiths around Celebimbor, again, the elves should know, and nobody else had Sauron's knowledge. He could possibly have told someone else in an attempt to further his control? Perhaps, but to be mighty, it would have to have had a mighty smith, it would have to have been before him losing his fair form, and given how his plan just backfired, I doubt he would be too keen on risking the possibility of creating more Great Rings not under his control. Could someone have created rings without using his knowledge? Extremely unlikely. He chose the form of rings as vessels of power because it suited his purpose, the form is not inherently important. Even if a completely unrelated ring were created however,it would have been very different from Sauron's or the elven rings, as those reflect their own nature.
@@alexanderprahauser1261 It's also possible that there is some natural (or unnatural) limit on the creation of Great Rings - the three Elven Rings are each associated with one of the classical elements - Fire, Air and Water - so that only leaves Earth conspicuously vacant (and that could be accounted for by the Seven). Or the creation of the One and its control over the Nineteen could prevent any others from being forged successfully.
I sort of like the idea that the holders of the Elven rings could feel the other rings being used. We have Gandalf’s line at the end of The Hobbit when he tells Bilbo that his story has, “the ring of truth.” I want to say he even repeats that phrase “the ring of truth” to emphasize it and since Gandalf was gone for most of the story once the ring comes into play how did he know magic ring was involved anyways?
I've also been curious, so ok... Interesting question about galadriel and whether she was aware of the one rings existence being a ring bearer herself. But what about Sauron, the ring's creator. How was he not aware since the ring was him. Bilbo was using it freely in Mirkwood essentially next to Dul Goldor. And if we use the argument that he was in too weakened of a state, he had freely declared himself by the time Bilbo used it at his birthday party and was certainly strong enough then to sense it. I believe that was before he captured Gollom. Sauron should have had a heck of a head start over gandalf.
I think it was confirmed that he knew the ring was out there, active and trying to make its way back to him. But the uses of the Ring by Gollum, Bilbo and Frodo were so minor that it would probably have taken Sauron actively searching for any uses of the ring in the area where they were used to notice them.
@4:50 the bearers of the elvenrings sense when someone wears the one ring.. like when sauron put on the ring the elves took theirs off immediately since they sensed him.
Strictly speaking, it was when Sauron empowered the One Ring and sought to claim control over the other Great Rings and their wielders that his purpose was revealed to them - simply putting it on without intent wouldn't have done anything.
Gandalf Carries the Ring of Fire,Elrond the Ring of Water.Both were within arms reach for Decades.Gandalf Handles the Ring after Bilbo Escapes the Orces.All of the Them are Hobbits same Signatures.But You can Bet Sauron knew EVERY TIME Someone Put it On.Think a Finger in Your - ----.!The Ring Was Quiet until Gandalf put it in the Fire and Said the Ring Spell,Abet in Common Speech from that point Saurons Eye would Be Straining to See IT.
@@TolkienLorePodcast Thought that was Galadriel Ring of the Firment.Really was Sure Gandalf Handled it before the Eagles.In Any Case Was Next to it While Bearing an object of the Greatest Power.Made To find and Control Those Other Rings.BUT NO!.
Outside the story it's an interesting fact tha not even Tolkien did know what kind of ring it was that Bilbo found from the beginning. When he started to write The Lord of the Rings he thought of one among many magic rings, just like the "lesser" rings. It wasn't until later that he desided that it of course should be THE ring, the One. This fact could have played a mane role in how the story was built in the first place. Inside the story it is easy to explain it just as you do: Gandalf has been using 17 years to make it clear for himself how everything with the ring-lore has happened. We can't forget the fact that in comparision this is as if the Grail should be found, or the lost ark, or something else that is 2000-3000 years old. If my friend was healed by drinking from a golden cup I should not immediately think "Oh, it MUST be the Grail!" I should be skeptical and think in other directions.
So your argument is Gandalf was guilty of appealing to authority fallacy? Fair enough not a plot hole Gandalf was just really bad at his job. He was in wizard form for around what 2000 years and his job was to stop Sauron. You'd think he would find 1 out of 700,000+ days to stop by Minis Tirith and read a few documents. But no Sauraman says the ring is gone forever, cool anyone for happy hour at Outback? I could murder a Bloomin Onion, first rounds on me. I'm driving...chicks dig the white horse!
Trusting Saruman doesn’t make him bad at his job. There was no reason to think he was dishonest and he was the literal world expert (other than Sauron) on the topic, and sort of Gandalf’s boss. Questioning him would be a huge step.
In the beginning the Ring holders were Cirdan, Celebrimbor and Gil-galad. Galadriel got Celebrimbor's ring, Elrond got Gil-galad's ring and Cirdan gave his to Gandalf. None of the holders of the three rings at the time Sauron made the One Ring still had one a millennium+ before the time of LOTR.
Sauron clearly did. Gandalf was probably far too pre-occupied with not dying on the battlefield to notice. Galadriel, more than likely, noticed, seeing as how she had some sort of actual connection with Frodo and she WAS temped by The One Ring. Elrond... given his special abilities, I'm going to say yeah, he probably knew.
Hi if smaug had incinerated Bilbo Baggins in the Hobbit would he have destroyed the one ring as Dragon fire can destroy the rains and the ring was in Bilbo’s pocket at the time just a thought what do you all think paul
@@TolkienLorePodcast Maybe I misunderstood whether you think Gandalf knew that Bilbo's Ring was the One Ring OR you just think it was one of the Rings of Power.😅
I think its tied to Sauron so when he was recovering the ring was silent. Now when Gollum revealed the One Ring has resurfaced Sauron began the search for the ring and his ring acknowledged this by becoming "active" enough to draw attention to itself. The Three ring wielders who remain free of Sauron's influence can sense the ring, but its only because of the meeting at Rivendell with Elrond that allowed Galadriel to know about Frodo.
I think the solution lies in the part about the words of Saruman. Gandalf says that they were "half-heeded at the time." Meaning that when Saruman made that comment, Gandalf listened to parts of it, but not all.
In my mind it's pretty clear that at the time Gandalf only focused on the fact that all the Great Rings "had each their proper gem", concluding (correctly) that Bilbo's ring therefore couldn't be one of the Three, Seven, or Nine. However, he didn't think it was the One, because Saruman had already repeatedly assured them that the One was forever lost. So Gandalf, defering to Saruman's expertise, then assumed (incorrecly) that his own initial impression that it was "clearly" a Great Ring was wrong, and that it was in fact a lesser ring.
When Gandalf later, during the hunt for Gollum, recalls those words, he focuses for the first time on the second part: the fact that the One's "maker set marks upon it that the skilled, maybe, could still see and read." That's why he then immediatly travels to Minas Tirith for research. Because the other Great Rings were made by the Elves, they presumably had records of their appearance. But the only person, except for Sauron, who had ever held the One, and therefore had been able to give a description of it which Saruman could later repeat, was Isildur.
So the timeline is: Gandalf first judges Bilbo's ring to be a Great Ring. Then he is shortly afterwards convinced by the words of Saruman that it must be a lesser ring. However, Bildo's words and actions on his birthday makes Gandalf realise that Bilbo's ring can't possibly be a lesser one, leading him to start hunting for the truth. After failing to catch Gollum, Gandalf remembers that the One Ring could have markings and then travels to Minas Tirith for information. Having gathered that, he takes a detour to Mirkwood to meet the recently captured Gollum whose story supports his suspicions. Finally, he travels to the Shire and confirms it is the One by throwing it into Frodo's fireplace.
Precious
I definitely think it was Sauroman's powers of persuasion.
I think it's like a sort of hypnosis or inception where Sauroman subtlety plants an idea in someone's mind and the victim just accepts it to be true.
I think the clue from the book is that Gandalf says at the council of Elrond that he had been "lulled" by the words of Sauroman. This suggests to me that Sauroman put a spell on him.
This is why Gandalf warns everyone later on to beware of his voice. He knows from personal experience how dangerous it is.
The last time I was this early, Bilbo still had the ring.
Last time I was this late I sleep through the Dagor Dagorath haha
I like the idea that Gollum must have been a monster of legend among the orcs who he had been feeding off for centuries
I've always thought there was at least an element of "I don't want to consider that possibility" to how long it took Gandalf to make that discovery. It's a relatively common phenomenon for people to live in a state of denial about looming problems.
So, I've always assumed that Gandalf was subconsciously talking himself out of that possibility due to just how terrible the implications would be.
Not sure if there's much textual support for that theory. Thats just how my brain filled that hole.
Agreed.
This is pretty much my interpretation as well. Gandalf may have had all the information he needed to figure out Bilbo's ring was The One very early, but simply didn't put 2 and 2 together, because as wise and powerful as Gandalf is, he's not perfect.
This is also one underlying theme to the whole novel, so agreed.
Gandalf knew from Bilbo's initial story that Golum thought and was built like a hobbit, but had to travel far to verify such folk had lived near Anduin. Like Butterbur, one thing drives out another, just on a bigger scale.
I think that there is text that supports your argument. Gandalf admits he discounted Bilbo's longevity as he came from a long lived family.
Perhaps Gandalf was behaving humbly, and meant that it was obvious (in an absolute way) that it was a Great Ring, but wasn't obvious to him, back at the time?
I'm writing a book and I can't tell you how many times I've seen that I haven't quite explained small things like this which I could explain only through an infodump. I have reasons but I can't just dump it all on my readers. At some point, willing suspension of disbelief and a willingness to trust the author and enjoy the mystery of not knowing have to supercede your critical eye. That threshold is different for every person but our culture today has raised it far beyond acceptable levels.
Sometimes a footnote or an appendix is the best way to handle these things. Leaving the information out altogether can cause lots of problems, but if you can’t work it into the story directly placing it in a footnote or appendix is the best way.
The answer to the question is just another question-"Why should Gandalf expect any magical ring to be the one ring?" It's only our focus on the story told that makes it seem obvious. No one would really expect a magical ring to be the one ring in-world.
Precisely. It's insane to assume that a random ring Bilbo found in a cave is the mythical One Ring to rule them all that will decide the fate of Middle Earth, especially when your trusted friend and wise expert is saying it definitely is long gone by now.
The only one who felt the Ring, when Sauron put it on, was Celebrimbor, the maker of the rings of power. And after he learns about that, he goes out and gives Galadriel one ring and Cirdan 2. Cirdan gives the two rings to Elrond and Gandalf later on.
So no! Galadriel didn't have the ring when Sauron put it on for the first time. Cause all three were with Celebrimbor at that moment in time.
The text says "the Elves" (plural) took of their Rings as Sauron made his bid. It was several of them
I say Gandalf is is talking about the ring in hindsight, "it was apparent Gollum had a great ring from the start" is him basically saying hindsight is 2020. Or "I should have seen it but didn't."
Or this could be referring to a dwarven ring , which was not one of the lesser rings, but a "great" ring which would have been harmless due to Sawron not having the one so Gandalf saw no harm in it.
Finally, on a different note, Gandalf and the other holders of the Three may not have sensed the use of the one ring simply because they A:Did not know the presence of bilbo, or smeegal, and B: where not looking for it directly. Gandalf would not have probed Bilbo for Bildo was his friend. And Galadrial never met Bilbo as far as I can remember, where as kelabrimbor knew who sowron was and so felt his presence immediately. Once Gandalf, Elrone and Galadrial where activily searching for the one ring, they clearly felt when it was being used.
These were my thoughts. Kudos to beating me to it...
*Celebrimbor
@@spencerfrankclayton4348 I would edit it, however TH-cam hasn't been letting me do so as of late.
I mean part of it is also they are also just not strong enough to reach out much in terms of those holding the one and their not trying to reach out like Galadriel says to Frodo you never tried and it would break him if he tried.
Though Frodo can see past the way Galadriel hid her ring from Sam so it has some measure of reaching out. Similar to how Sam could put on the ring and sneak into Mordor and not be noticed by Sauron and as soon as Frodo claims Sauron knows and immediately looks over sensing it, aka how you use the ring and why effect what kind of direct level of sense they have
Fascinating. Watching your videos is something I look forward to every week.
always appreciate the content. it often gets posted while im trying to hang in there a little longer working from home.
I think it's possible that already the invisibility effect gave the Ring away as a Ring of Power. If the extended lifespan can be understood as an accumulation of the same factor that makes mortals invisible - that is, to tie them to the Unseen - and combine that with the reasonable assumption that the lesser rings did not extend lifespans (Gandalf implies that), then you would assume that neither did the lesser rings confer invisibility.
True, but it is all based on guesses by Mithrandir. The so-called "lesser rings" must have had some magical qualities or else they would have been a waste of time forging. Maybe making mortals disappear was something the more advanced ones could do.🤔
I think you can distinguish between four groups of rings. There are rings which are just common jewelry, no matter how beautiful, or storied. The Ring of Barahir that Aragorn wore falls into this category (even though it was made by a Ñoldo). Then there were the lesser magical rings made by the elves of Eregion prior to their tutelage by Sauron. There were the great magical rings made by the elves of Eregion with knowledge gained from Sauron and either with (the seven and the nine) or without (the three) Sauron's direct help in their forging. Finally their is the one ring. Linguistically, each of these groups of rings other the first can be called a great ring relative to the less powerful rings. Thus, when talking about rings in general, the lesser magical rings would be properly called Great Rings; even though when talking about magical rings in general, you would call them lesser rings, and call only the twenty major rings Great Rings; just as when talking only of those twenty, you would refer to only the one ring as the Great Ring.
Given this, I think the best resolution of the conundrum is your original one - that Gandalf originally thought the ring was one of the lesser magical ring; but when he says that it was clear from the start that it was a Great Ring, he is merely distinguishing it from non-magical rings. I base this conclusion on the facts that:
1) Initially, when it was clear to him that it was a Great Ring, all he knew of it was that it rendered Bilbo invisible; which is not enough to distinguish it from other lesser rings;
2) In Gandalf's view, even the lesser rings were perilous to mortals. It follows that if the ring were one of the seven, it would be very perilous to Bilbo, and Gandalf would not have rested on the issue so long if that was his belief. The seven, after all, are rings of approximately the same level of power as those that turned men into Nazgul - which is hardly an outcome Gandalf would have accepted for Bilbo; and
3) Only the lesser rings and the one ring were unadorned.
I would agree that this solution is not ideal given the language Tolkien uses, but also think that no resolution is perfect, and this does the least violence to the story, and Gandalf's character.
That’s actually a good point, because it does seem Gandalf is contemplating Bilbo not having a Great Ring (one from the rhyme) with his comment that he came from a long lived family.
Barahirs ring should have magic properties
@@BanjoSick given that it was made by a Ñoldo, it seems possible that it did. Unless there is evidence that it doesn’t, we can’t rule out that it had some kind of magical power, even if it was very basic (like hypothetically providing light and better vision in darkness and warning the wearer of foes, similar to elvish weapons).
@@JohnGeorgeBauerBuis In the old Middle Earth RPG the powers of Barahirs Ring were:
70th level Ring of Dragon-warding; if held before a Dragon, those Drakes who fail an RR return home for an indefinite period (e.g. 1-100 months or years), fearing the place where the ring is so used; x6 PP enhancer (6 times the magic resources).
So there its extremely powerful.
So Aragorn should have gone to Erebor instead of Bilbo, haha.
Galadriel could have got knowledge about how many times Frodo had used the ring from Elladan and Elrohir visiting Lórien between the counsel of Elrond and Frodo's departure from Rivendell two month later. The sons of Elrond visited Galadriel and told her about a fellowship soon comming with the One ring. Perhaps they gave her detailed information about what Gandalf and Frodo had been telling during the counsel.
I tend to go with this, as he had put it on while on the Seat of Seeing.
Galadriel also had the gift of telepathy. It’s possible that she perceived the number of times he used it by probing his thoughts.
Sorry, didn’t finish the video before reading comments and he does touch on this aspect
Keenly observed 👍🏼
I can think of three obvious reasons why Gandalf might have hesitated to consult Saruman about Gollum's Ring:
- As mentioned in the video, it could have been the promptings of divine providence
- Another possibility is that it could have been the One Ring, subtly influencing those who know of it to keep it secret (thereby leading to its own undoing)
- Or, it could be that, even if only subconsciously, Gandalf smells a rat in Saruman's apparent lapse: how is it that the Wizard who specialises in Ringlore could have not only mistaken the fate of one of the Twenty, but done so so completely as to be convinced of the false fate without any hint of uncertainty or doubt? There's clearly something wrong there...
There are a couple of comments in the books about how the Shire is unusually 'forgettable' to outsiders. I think Gandalf compares the 'magic' of the Shire to the magical protections of Bombadil's forest (maybe it was Rivendell, or Lothlorien?) at some point. Sauron, after all his years, had never even heard of the Shire...
A magic ring kept by a happy, tiny old hobbit under a hill -- just the kind of thing you'd forget about, in a world as magical and dangerous as Middle Earth. Add in a bit of indirect, Manwe magic (to make that specific region especially forgettable), and you have a place that all sides -- good and evil -- tend to overlook.
loving this channel i think i have marathoned about 80% of your videos of late
It was basically impossible for Gandalf to know it was the one ring and not one of the lesser rings. Lesser Rings being of the same program as the Greater Rings should still be corruptive, so Bilbo being corrupted isn't a shock.
Invisibility shouldn't also be a shock as it might be the intended design or an odd quirk of the ring. Bilbo having an extended lifespan is also something to be expected.
The only traits that are undeniably of the One Ring are the invisible signs on the ring itself and the ability to dominate others. Since neither had made themselves clear, the only option even with vague premonitions is to leave things as they are.
People are arguing from the conclusion. Of course if Gandalf acted rashly and taken the ring to test it, things would have worked out better. But what if he was wrong (as even Gandalf could be sometimes)? If it was a lesser ring and he made a big fuss then not just would his friendship with Bilbo be ruined, but also Sauron would believe that the One Ring had been found.
Sauron would have plunged the world into war and no amount of oops it wasn't the One Ring would persuade Sauron otherwise. Hundreds of thousands would die due to Gandalf being an idiot.
Saruman the world's foremost authority on rings said the One Ring was gone. No traits Bilbo showed demanded it to be the One Ring. As such the only wise thing Gandalf could do was watch and wait. If it was the one ring that fact would make itself known in time as it eventually did.
EDIT: As for Gandalf's clearly a great ring comment, this can be explained as a hindsight is 2020 comment. Once you know that Gollum has been alive for several hundred years you know you are dealing with a great ring. Gandalf didn't know Gollum was all that until much later. By then Gandalf already knew that the One Ring was in the shire. He just double checked his work by going to Gondor and then proved his work to Frodo by throwing the ring in the fire.
One thing that I feel really affected Gandalf was he didn't want it to be the one ring. Because if it was it would be a likely disaster for the Free Peoples. Especially the hobbits.
It's very common for people to avoid the unpleasant truths that are staring them in the face.
But finding the ring was the best thing the Free Peoples could ever have hoped for. Sauron without the ring wins just by military strength and lack of a unified opposition. The reason he wanted to get the ring back so badly was because of his fear someone like Galadriel or Aragorn would try to claim it and be successful. It was his only weakness left.
@@alexanderprahauser1261 I don't think that holds with everything Gandalf, Eldrond, et. al. say about The Ring; it corrupts, they fear it, and if Sauron gets it, they have /no/ chance. In spite of Sauron's military strength, there's still a hope that you can defeat him, and, ultimately, with something so powerful, there's just no 'knowing' what's going to happen. I think Steven B is right on the money; part of Gandalf knows it's important to find the truth about The Ring; he can't ignore that responsibility, curiosity, and compulsion, but another part fears what he might find. That conflict is expressed both in that he pursues the truth, but it takes him a great deal of time to do it.
And I think if The Ring was indeed the best thing the Free Peoples could ever have hoped for, no one more than Gandalf would have known that, and if he did know that, he would have pursued the truth about The Ring more swiftly. The fact that he didn't, to me at least, is proof that The Ring was not the best thing for the Free Peoples.
@@alexanderprahauser1261 Finding the One Ring gave the Free Peoples a chance of victory, but the One Ring being active again meant that the end was near - the time for Gandalf (and the other Istari) to fulfill the purpose for which they were sent to Middle Earth and have to either depart, or forsake their commissions.
@@danielnabben8480 it is worth noting that Sauron was defeated before, and wearing the One Ring at that! So defeating Sauron *with* the ring was not impossible, just very difficult, although it is true that Gondor would have had to abandon their coastline to the raiding Corsairs to bring their full military might to bear against Sauron, and likely would have wanted to have the dwarves and elves muster out every last soldier as well, just to make sure.
@@JohnGeorgeBauerBuis The Elves were much diminished at the end of the Third Age, and no longer held the strength to defeat a Ring-empowered Sauron even with the aid of Men and Dwarves. But they probably could have defeated him without the ring in play, as you noted.
These videos and others like it always make me question what I have taken from reading the books. I always thought Gandalf needed to let time pass to see if it affected Bilbo's lifespan. which would takes years to see. Also I never assumed that the 20 great rings talked about in the poem were the only great rings. They were just the ones made to enhance the beings but because of Sauron's corruption they used the weaknesses to enslavr (or that was the intent). The 9 to corrupt the Gift of Man and the 7 to turn love of gems and metals into greed.
The lifespan thing is an issue which calls this into question. Might need another follow up video lol
@@TolkienLorePodcast Actually @Jackrabbit991 might have a point. It would explain why the first words out of Gandalf's mouth when he sees Bilbo for the first time since The Hobbit is, "You haven't aged a day..." That could be Gandalf confirming a suspicion he's had since the end of The Hobbit. While Hobbits may have long lifespans, they still AGE. And Gandalf would have to wait a long time to see if Bilbo ages, specifically BECAUSE of their long lifespans.
I can just imagine Tolkein in heaven, puffing ĥis pipe and chortling a bit at all the head scratching over his writing! 😅
In Galdalphs defense...there are many magic in that world and none of them should be taken lightly....One could wonder if Bilbo got a Good Luck ring or one that gives natural hair growth. Either way, theres no way Mithrandir could know!
I think that Gandalf always had a suspicion, but did want to move toward rash action until he confirmed it. He always had a trust of Hobbits beyond that of other races, and new that they were overlooked by those of power for the time being. There was a reason that he impressed on the Dunedain to protect the shire. Also, he did not want to take the ring for himself and he did not entirely trust Sauroman. He felt it safest in humble hands and only risked to move it when the time pressed him.
Great videos! After watching both videos, I find this argument to be more convincing for Gandalf’s path to discovering the true nature of Bilbo’s magic ring. I think Gandalf, like Tolkien, assumed that this wasn’t the ring that it was but after much research and wandering (or writing in the case of Tolkien) it proved to be the great ring - the One Ring. Gandalf being persuaded by Saruman makes sense given that it wasn’t until Saruman trapped Gandalf and locked him in the tower at Orthanc that he discovered Saruman’s treachery and union with Sauron. He naturally assumed Saruman’s argument that The Ring was lost in the sea to be the truth, so it would have been impossible for this to have been the Ring of Power. The jewels on nineteen of the twenty great rings seems to have been either overlooked or forgotten by Gandalf probably because, in his mind, this cannot be Sauron’s ring because it was lost to the sea; therefore, if it is a great ring it must be a dwarven ring or one of the nine given to men. On a different topic, what do you say in your intro and outro and what do they mean (I’m afraid I know very little of Tolkien’s languages, although I find them to be fascinating)?
When Gandalf is in Minas Tirith before he returns to Frodo, he reads a document that tells Gandalf how to test the ring by heating it up. That is the final piece in the puzzle for Gandalf
I recently discovered your channel and love what you do. Just want to thank you for your work. I really enjoy the more conversive approach to your videos.
Do we even know for sure that Gandalf knew the entire time how many rings of power there even were? Is it possible only Saruman knew that and Gandalf discovered quite late through his research there were just those 20?
Pretty sure he knew of the number of Great Rings. He was aware of the rhyme and says Saruman had told them of each having its proper stone. H forgot the bit about the stones for a while it seems but there’s no reason to think he forgot the number.
Excellent channel!
Stealth, I think the Ring betrayed Isildur and when Smeagol got his hands on it, it eventually corrupted him but sought to hide where he did until Sauron reached out once more.
Bilbo picked it up, but his compassionate nature made him more resistant to the ring's allure so by the time it could alert Sauron the Council had driven Sauron out of his tower and back into Mordor unaware the ring had resurfaced.
From Bilbo's stories Gandalf asked for help investigating and I think the Rangers learned of Gollum's resurfacing and learned who he was hunting for and probably got him to reveal his true name so they could double check the details.
Gollum evades them ending up in Mordor where he confesses to the Nazgul.
I think it was Gollum's capture that caused Gandalf to rush to Frodo's side to confirm once and for all if that is the One Ring.
I think that Gandalf was talking in retrospect. As in, it was apparent from the start, but I just didn’t put it all together.
I realized that the full ring poem must have been written after the rings were made because, Sauron was unaware of the Three Elven Rings prior to wearing the One, and the elves were unaware of the One until Sauron wore it for the first time.
It would have been so nice for reader's comprehension to have a sentence "and by the way Frodo, this poem was composed after the fact".
One reason Gandalf is going to try to get his evidence down cold, hence his research trip to Minas Tirith: at this point, he probably thinks he is going to have to convince the Wise, and that Saruman is still going to argue the Ring went down the river to the sea. Even assuming Saruman is on their side, and just believes this, Gandalf is going to have to have a very good case to convince the Council that he’s right, and not the expert on Ring lore. In addition, even a good Saruman is probably very persuasive. So Gandalf may have to contend with that even under the best case scenario. Of course, having the case this on lock by the Council of Elrond ended up being good too, since he had to convince a bunch of people with little Ring lore knowledge that this was the One Ring.
Just repeating something I said previously, Gandalf not Realising it is not a Plot Hole, even if it is the inevitable conclusion. Anything that relies on a character's understanding or misunderstanding is characterisation. Perhaps he, wise as he is, should have realised it. But he didn't. He did not put it together. We can come up with discussions to explain why but it is simply a plot point that a Smart character did not realise something in a moment of dumbness. Gandalf proves he is not infallible. I, as a reasonably smart person, sometimes do not realise things that are plain as day.
It once took me until my third date with a Girl, and her referring to our "previous dates" to realise she might be into me. I hadn't realised they were dates.
Point is that Smart people can be dumb, and unless the story pretends it is not dumb then it is not a plot hole. It is someone being dumb. That is it.
Great analysis!
I always thought of the "The other rings all have gems" thing as a plothole. Thanks for reminding me of the timeline.
The problem is that in hindsight, we might take some information for granted that became later on. I never considered that this detail about the rings would bei either unknown to Gandalf or have slipped from his mind. But it is possible.
I think Galadriel really felt that Frodo had put on his ring. There was something different for Frodo than it was for Bilbo and Gollum: He knew what this ring was. IMO it doesn't matter that he didn't actually try to bind someone's mind. The very fact that he knew that this ring was more than something that could turn you invisible was enough for him to tap involuntarily into the more corrupting effects of the ring. I became more convinced of this by the effect it had when he used it Amon Hen.
As for what greater rings are or not: You are right that I can't picture either Tolkien or Gandalf mixing those meanings up. However, at one time he was talking to Frodo explaining something that was way over his head, the other time in front of powerful people who partially already know about the lore of the rings. I think he is using the term relatively to whatever he was talking to. I don't think there is a general definition of the term Greater Ring for the people in Middle Earth.
I do not think the "lesser rings" (in the sense of not the 9+7+3+1) have any tangible magical effects like invisibility. Tolkien used obvious magic sparingly in his works and only very few people are capable of showing it. If there were other people around with the capability of turning invisible, something in the ages they existed would have made history eventually. But they are never even referenced beyond that they existed at all. So yes, Gandalf must have suspected it was one of the 9+7+3+1 almost from the start.
My guess is also that he considered it to be one of the 7. Maybe not all were destroyed, maybe Sauron gave one away. As for the 9: The Nazgul didn't carry their rings, did they? They were with Sauron. Theoretically he could give them away again. What that would do to the corresponding Ringwraith could be anybody's guess, but mine is that at the very least Sauron would lose some amount of control over him but more likely that Nazgul would eventually fade away completely. So I think your line of reasoning here is still sound.
The Nazgul do carry their rings with them... it would be the only way they are still alive. If Sauron took the ring back from one of them, he would die immediately, right?
Not necessarily. There are conflicting statements on this-in one place it says the Nazgul hold the rings, in another it says Sauron holds them. The latter could be interpreted to mean they’re under his control rather than direct physical possession, but in either case I think since the wraiths are what they are because of the power of the One, only it’s destruction would lead to their own final death.
@@TolkienLorePodcast My impression was that they really didn't carry their rings with them because Frodo would probably have seen or noticed them at Weathertop. Okay, they could have been hidden under gloves, but I thought that this would have been too much of an opportunity for a writer to show them off at this point.
Edit: Also, that would likely mean that they would have found one of the Nine in the remains of the Witch King after his demise on the Pellenor Fields.
Edit2: It doesn't really matter. I am sure neither Gandalf nor Saruman would have known if the Nazgul still carried the rings. It's not like they could have asked.
Yeah, Galadriel read Frodo's and the rest of the fellowship's minds.
Galdalf for sure suspected the ring could be the one for Gollum's lifespan, but I'm not sure when he staring being aware of that in the timeline. He clearly knows Gollum exists from Bilbo's account later, but before that, I'm not sure - or don't remember him mention it anywhere. It could be that he later (as is in LotR) learns about Gollum and retroactively think "so, he used the ring, which is why he is alive", making it retroactively obvious starting from the time he learns a lot about Gollum.
He didn’t start to put it all together until he found out Gollum’s back story. After all how could he?
@Tickerel My Pickerel That suggests the (somewhat cannon) narrative that he ONLY really was sure after Bilbo passed the ring to Frodo.
Good defense; I am convinced. Minor nitpick: Nazgul were active in taking Minas Ithil after the fall of Angmar, but since this basically happened within the same generation, no biggie.
27yrs Later..
@@brandtbollers3183 This was still the time when (Dunedain) Gondorians lived for a long time. Earnil died when he was 160 years old. 27 years in that context is still within the same generation. :)
Wasn't the One in a dormant state up until it came into Frodo's possession? Wouldn't that clear up why Gollum and Bilbo's usage of it went unnoticed by Gandalf and/or Galadriel?
I would say she does it because in part because of mind reading in part of the nature of the three to connect to the one similar to how Frodo can see past how she is hiding the ring and her ablity to look into his spirt to see how much effect it has on fading him in addition to knowing about the morgol blade
When Galadriel mentaly probed the fellowship when they first meet her, that's where she found it about frodos ring use
Not likely. She was sending thoughts but there’s no real indication she could read their minds and memories.
I feel like the wearers of the Three were able to perceive when Frodo put the ring on because by then they knew for sure that the ring had been found and were open to the perception. Gandalf, Elrond, and Galadriel were all very perceptive beings and could sense many things. The original wearers of the three perceived the existence of the one, as you said, Sauron set to work at once wielding its power, essentially blowing a large trumpet blast. I do agree though that Galadriel probably divined Frodo's three uses of the ring by reading his mind and memory.
Saruman invoked the precedent of the silmaril that was lost in the sea, a fact decisively agreed upon at all levels of the mythology. Maybe gandalf's gut could've led him to ask bombadil's opinion about saruman's assertion.
@Tolkien Lore I just discovered your channel and its great I watched almost everything twice. Question? I always wondered why if Sauruman was the ring expert because he studied its lore and history so much why didnt he just make a ring of power for himself? With him and Sauron both being maiar wouldnt his have been similar in power ?
Hey. I'm not @Tolkien Lore, but lemme take a crack at this.I believe Sauron was originally called Mairon, and he studied craft under the Vala of craft, Aulë, as an apprentice. This is where he learned to craft things. Curunir, Saruman, was also a Maia, but specifically an Istar, a wise one, a wizard, sent by the Valar to help in the fight against Sauron. Technically, both are Maia and would've been similar in power but Sauron had learnt the skill and Saruman had not. It probably would've taken years to learn the skill, if he could've went back to Valinor and convinced Aulë to teach him to craft, but this would've been pretty suspicious, don't you think? I think Saruman was just been opportunistic.
It clearly states in the books that Saruman DID research making rings of power and did make some. Gandalf specifically mentions him wearing them when he visited Isengard after meeting Radagast.
@@simonmorris4226 True, I had forgotten about that. He probably didn't get the power he wanted out of them though ; not having the experience and skill that Sauron had.
With respect to Vegetaryan, Saruman was also a Maia in the service of Aulë. In contrast, Gandalf was a Maia of Irmo, who concerned himself (as did his brother and sister) in the consolation of the spirit. Thus it was natural that Saruman should take particular interest in a matter of craft, while Gandalf always concentrated on encouraging others.
However, just because Sauron, Saruman and Gandalf were all Maia does not mean they are equal in power. A Maia is just an angelic being who entered Middle Earth, but who is less powerful than the Valar. That allows for a very wide disparity in power, and though Gandalf is accounted the wisest of the Maia, neither he nor Saruman are among the most powerful, while Sauron was definitely one of the most powerful. Further, the Istari emptied themselves of some of their power as part of their mission. (Think of the difference between Gandalf the Grey and Gandalf the White). As Sauron put a large part of his power into the ring, for it to be effective, it would not be possible for a less powerful being to make an equally powerful ring.
@@Oatmeal_Mann Sauron had been at it for a long time!
They were aware of Sauron because Sauron was ACTIVELY TRYING TO PENETRATE AND Dominate THEIR MINDS.
Oh interesting I'm going to have to watch that trilogy again!
Love your channel. (I think Sauron would make a great sith.) At around 23:ish minutes in you talk about the nazgul being "in action", but is it actually stated anywhere that they, in some semi-physical manner, actually carry the nine rings? Perhaps Sauron just used the rings to get them "hooked", and now as they are "bound to his will" he could give the "men-rings" to other men and start making even more nazgul. (Unless he thought it to be too much work for too little margin benefit.)
The test is a bit ambiguous on that point.
It might also be that Gandalf in a way foresaw that Frodo would have already used the ring once when arriving in Bree...
Actually, this seems to be the only explanation, if the word “again” wasn’t simply wrong....
I really do think this is the only explanation
It still makes sense if he had used the word "again" in reference to the fact that the ring had been previously used by both Gollum and Bilbo.
The primary purpose of the letter is to tell Frodo to leave Bag End immediately. It doesn't really make sense that Gandalf would foresee Frodo using the ring between leaving Bag End and receiving the letter. It could merely be an intuitive assumption by Gandalf that turns out to be correct. Another interpretation is that Gandalf writes "again" because he has already told Frodo not to use it.
@@The_Toxic_Avenger hm but then he wouldn’t say “do not use it again”, right? I think it refers to Frodo...
@@MegaTenser yeah, that’s true. However, it might be that intuitive assumption....
"There were Many Magic Rings most were but essays in the Craft.But still dangerous for Mortals."Gandalf.He does not know the Great Ring is Unadorned.
Great video. A thought about Gandalf's potential psychic awareness of Frodo's ring usage: when Frodo was on Amon Hen, Gandalf was aware of him and was able to communicate with him very quickly saying "Fool! Take it off!". Do you have any thoughts about this perhaps implying an earlier psychic connection? Or perhaps this was since Gandalf was White at the time of the Amon Hen encounter? Or perhaps this encounter is explained by the usage of the ring at a place of power?
I do think that it is important that in any aspect of the ring's use that a distinction is made between actively 'using' the ring, which according to Galadriel would require a strong mind or intense training, and simply 'wearing' the ring.
Really enjoying the discussions your videos bring about, keep them up!
I think the use at a place of power is certainly significant. Frodo is actually granted sight beyond the usual there so that is likely what caught Gandalf’s attention, or else it was Sauron’s activity in searching for Frodo that did.
Gandalf was following the rest of the Fellowship with a delay at that time. Tolkien wrote notes on the off-page movement of characters (such as how the orc parties who attacked the Fellowship came into place) and I think for Gandalf it says that he stood atop a hill in Fangorn forest and could see all the way to Amon Hen. Not sure if he literally saw them from that distance or if he projected himself into a bird's-eye perspective. Once again, one of the most epic battles in the novel happens mostly off-page.
Gandalf was simply using "Great Ring" in an improper sense to refer to a powerful magic ring, not exclusively to refer to the 20 rings of power; Tolkien uses "Great Ring" in the same sense in the preface to refer to a hypothetical Great Ring of Saruman. The reason Gandalf immediately knew the ring was powerful (he probably assumed it was one of the last made before the 16), even before knowing anything about Gollum or how Bilbo got it, is stated shortly prior, where he says that Great Rings extend the lives of mortals and can be used to turn invisible, both of which are very extraordinary powers given how invisibility was achieved. So the moment he learned it was a ring of invisibility, he knew it was a very powerful ring and it was very extraordinary that it was found in the misty mountains.
Even with your explanations, I see one thing being a bit strange: Gandalf mentions he was quite surprised to see Bilbo not aging, and even explained it to itself (he comes from a long-lived family). Why would he think such way, being sure that Bilbo's ring is a Great Ring? All of them prolonged lives of mortals, this is how the Nazguls work after all.
I think the only way of reconcile this is to assume that Gandalf was deluding himself: He knew that reasonably it's a Great Ring, but still hoping that the reality is not so bad.
I'm not convinced if Gandalf initially suspected a Great Ring, because although Gandalf wouldn't forcefully take the ring from Bilbo, I think if he told Bilbo early on that he could become a wraith, Bilbo would willingly give it up.
Galadriel could reach out and sense actively, using her ring. Though she did not sense the other uses because she is not trying to find the ring because it is gone.
I know that I have said this before, but each lotr film should have been two parts.
Sauron could maybe have disguised a dwarf ring as a magic ring as a trap for an inquisitive scholar experimenting on magic rings not expecting to have to dezl with that much corruption
Isn't it easier to argue that the One exerted some power over Gandalf and caused him to forget about the thing about the Great Rings all having gems?
Saruman's the ring expert so a better question why did Gandalf NOT ask Saruman instead as he would have been more likely to recognize it?
My guess is that after the events of the Hobbit Gandalf was wary of involving the Council until he knew for sure.
I think Bilbo's reluctance to relinquish the ring was the alarm bell that caused him to look more closely and why when he returned and met Frodo took the envelope with the ring and cast it into the fire.
Movie wise I took Gandalf's expression as being relieved there was no writing turned to horror when Frodo mentioned the writing appearing because of the fire.
Gandalf mentions the possibility of asking Saruman but says something always held him back.
Also if it was one of the seven, it would be the dwarven ring, so it would most likely enhance greed, so Bilbo and Smeagol running around saying this is MY ring, would make sense (also Bilbo got pretty rich after he got the ring :D )
I've listened to this and the other video about three times now. Great work. I still think there are contradictions in 'The Shadow of the Past'. Regarding Bilbo and Gollum's stories, Gandalf says 'the lies were too much alike'. But in 2941 Gandalf couldn't know Gollum's story was a flat-out lie. All he had was some second-hand mumblings about a grandmother and a birthday present. I suggest as a class exercise, rewrite the chapter to preserve the threat of the Ring but leave open that it was one of the lesser ones. Hard to do!
I think we can explain that as Gandalf just omitting the necessary verbiage to make clear that he is simultaneously talking about what he knew in the more and less distant pasts. Ie it’s only a contradiction in the most technical sense. What I think is harder to explain is his apparent belief that Bilbo might not have a great ring (after all, he is from a long lived family....) and his statement that Gollum clearly had a great ring “from the first”.
Another fun detail is that Sméagol's relatives uses the exact same "name" on him as Bilbo uses, not knowing anything about his past: Gollum.
It could of course be explained by the actual sound - perhaps it sounded "gollum" so clearly. But Gollum never introduces himself as "Gollum". He just gargles it. It would be more likely that Bilbo should call him for example "Cave man", "the cave creature", "Slimy", etc.
Not a big issue, but sometimes I find that Tolkien is putting some "knowings" in the characters mind, so to speak.
And, of course, it's a GREAT name. And it is a fantasy storie. (It's more strange that rings could make you invisible ...)
Kind of hilarious to think he would earn the same nickname twice. Maybe it's an archaic Hobbit word for cutthroat or similar ^^
Another answer to galadriel knowing about frodo's uses could be the returning power of sauron' & his call to it.
There’s no reason to think that wasn’t true while he was the Necromancer though.
@@TolkienLorePodcast i was figuring having the nine mobilized might amplify & refine ring signals
Gandalf was zoning from smoking too much of the hobbit "weed" in his pipe.
Lots of holes in the plot holes.The one for me is if Gandalf suspected that the ring was The ring and didn't fully trust Saruman he could surely have talked to Elrond or Galadriel the bearers of the other two elven rings?
What good would that have done?
@@TolkienLorePodcast none probably, might have made things worse. If they acted earlier then the fellowship would have been different, Gollum wouldn't have followed Frodo etc.
This issue is so confusing that I wanted to revisit your videos. Some people suggested that Gandalf either meant to say "with hindsight, it should have been clear from the beginning that it was a Great Ring" or that Great Ring refers to any magical ring. Both explanations kind of work, but I don't like the extra assumptions they rely upon.
We need to beg Joshua to do an updated video containing all his main points and arguments. It was overwhelming for me to watch Part 2 just once. I need to watch it 3-4 times and take notes.😅
@Enerdhil I’ve actually thought of doing that, because I think I still left some holes and missed a detail or two.
@@TolkienLorePodcast
I think you have way more than enough detail in the two videos you made. I am just lazy and want one condensed video with your key points 😅.
I think drawing attention to the topic would be great whether you make a Part 3 or not. Thanks for answering all of my questions. I appreciate it.🙏😁
I wonder how Gandalf knew Gollum had called the Ring his birthday-present - did he find that out while questioning him in Mirkwood?
He must have, or else got it from Bilbo.
@@TolkienLorePodcast
He specifically says that Gollum told him.
Is it possible that gollum did not trigger "feeling" because Sauron was still much diminished in power himself, regardless of the ring. As time has passed he has come back to strength - it is part of saurons life force/whatever and between frodo getting it and leaving the shire he has gained a decent amount of power compared to prior? If that makes sense.
I don’t think there’s any reason to think that in the text.
Maybe it was a typo or printing error that stuck. 🤔
Didn't frodo use the ring a fourth time after Lothlorien? Aman Sul... On a chair and didn't he connect with sauron who spoke to him saying he could see him? Right before the fellowship officially broke up... So more than three total times.
Amon Hen, and yes he did use it to escape Boromir, but that in stance would have been irrelevant.
Hello! : )
Why did Bilbo not alert the ring wraiths whenever he put it on? The only counter I could see is when gandalf said it has re awoken or something like that
The Nazgul don’t have One Ring alarms. They can tell when it’s nearby at best.
Sauron is holding all the Nazgul Rings so they can't be "lost."
Gandalf should have known that if Bilbo's Ring were one of the Great Rings, it had to be the One Ring because Dwarves don't disappear when they put on their Rings, so why would Gandalf assume Hobbits could or would? When the Nazgul first put on their Rings, did they disappear? I don't think so. That means that the 16 and the Elven Rings don't make anyone disappear, although they do in the Amazon Prime Video series🙄, so why would Gandalf believe they could make Hobbits disappear? Is it all based on Gandalf believing Hobbits were lesser beings so that all of the Rings of Power could make them disappear? It seems racist.
‘A mortal, Frodo, who keeps one of the Great Rings, does not die, but he does not grow or obtain more life, he merely continues, until at last every minute is a weariness. And if he often uses the Ring to make himself invisible, he fades:’ all great rings cause invisibility based on this passage. Only Men (including Hobbits) seem to experience this however, because Elves are already simultaneously in both the seen and unseen worlds, and Dwarves are too resilient to be affected. The Dwarven Rings were not *made for Dwarves;* they were just 7 of the 16 that Sauron gave to the Dwarves. All were originally meant for elves.
@@TolkienLorePodcast
You posted, "And if he often uses the Ring to make himself invisible, he faded."
Gandalf mentioned the "fading" part. I am bothered by the "disappearing" part. Why would Gandalf think that one of the Nine Rings that didn't make men disappear until they had completely faded or one the Dwarven Rings, which clearly don't make Dwarves disappear would make Hobbits disappear?
Look at it this way: Would wearing a Nazgul Ring or a Dwarven Ring make Frodo disappear? Gandalf says it is possible. I don't think so. I think he should've known that Ring was the One Ring, or at least assumed it was.
@Enerdhil Gandalf says it in the quote: “if he often uses the Ring [in context, the Great Ring he happens to possess] *to make himself invisible*… Clearly he’s contemplating the use for the purpose of invisibility. But what examples does he have of permanent fading? Only the Nazgul. Ergo we must conclude that somehow he knows that they became invisible when wearing their rings and through repeated use became invisible permanently. There’s no other way to explain what he’s saying, unless you take the approach that he’s making stuff up for no apparent reason.
@@TolkienLorePodcast
Are you saying Tolkien uses the word "fading" differently from Men and Elves? I assumed it was exactly the same.
Is the most likely explanation that it is a mistake by Tolkien? Doesn't he say in the prologue that he noticed a lot of errors himself but hadn't corrected them? Forgive me I am too lazy to go upstairs to get the book.
I feel this relevant. Upon finishing another read through, an idea/theory kept creeping into my mind. The nature of the one rings' power, which is somewhat vague in my interpretation, seems to be dependent on the fact that the other rings exist and possess their own, again, somewhat vague, powers. The power of the one ring is arguably its control of the other rings and their wearers. The crux of the theory - wouldn't the destruction/abandonment of the Elven rings diminish the power of the one? If so, are not the Elves/Gandalf guilty of the same sin as Isildur? Further evidence of their weakness/folly is they never suggest this path as option nor do they even attempt it to see if this is true or even possible or maybe it will weaken Sauron. They even cling to a hope that their powers will not diminish upon the one's destruction. Then upon the destruction its implied that they do in fact lose their powers. So maybe 🤔
Well, yes and no. The One was designed to control the others, so in that sense the destruction of all the other rings would lessen the power of the One as a weapon. But at the time of the story it’s clear that Sauron will eventually win even without the One, and since much of his power went into it he would be “whole” if he regained it and thus be more powerful as a general matter, so in the long run destroying the other rings couldn’t bring victory. Only destroying the One could do that.
When did Gandalf really know Gullum? Gandalf says it was obvious that Gullum had a great ring, but Gandalf never met Gullum in the hobbit. I want to say he didn’t meet with Gullum until after Bilbo left the Shire. By that point Gandalf had already seen the influence the ring had on Bilbo and when he talked with Gullum he quickly learned he had to have had a great ring.
I mean before he talks to him all he knows about Gullum is what Bilbo told him. But it was Gandalf that learned Gullum was even a halfling.
But who was phone?
Gandalf has been observing Bilbo for decades and the ring did not seem to have any ill effects on him, so obviously it was not the One Ring.
Is it necessarily true that the one, the three, the seven, and the nine are the only great rings? If Gandalf thinks that he has accounted for all those great rings, and then he discovers that Bilbo has yet another great ring, then the logical conclusion seems to be that someone else at some other time somehow made yet another great ring, perhaps with no association to Sauron. Even if there truly are no other great rings in all the world, would there be any way for Gandalf to know that, especially when he's presented with the evidence of an apparently unknown great ring popping up?
Gandalf acknowledges "lesser rings" at The Council of Elrond but doesn't go into great detail about them. I believe he calls them 'an essay in the craft' of smithing, implying they were practice rings made before they went all in with the rings of power. So my assumption is that Gandalf thought Bilbo had found a lesser ring because, other than not ageing, Bilbo didn't seem to change in any of the ways a greater ring would suggest he should. He was amiable as ever, remained just as "partial to his vittles" (a trait that, should it change in a hobbit, would be a cause for concern), and he was charitable and good even in possession of the ring.
That's not to mention that Saruman had convinced Gandalf that the one ring was lost forever. I'm willing to be corrected on any points I've made but that's why I believe Gandalf wasn't overly concerned about Bilbos ring. Until the night Bilbo left the Shire of course but by then Gandalf had more suspicions than ever..
It would be extremely unlikely for another great ring to exist. All rings except those created by Celebrimbor alone were created by Sauron, and he demanded and got them back once the elves took them off, so a further ring would probably have been noted and resulted in either another Nazgul or a greedy dwarfen king. I guess the latter is still somewhat possible, but would not change anything said in the video. Would another ring by Celebrimbor be possible? Perhaps, but it would have been given to his elves, so at least the other ring-bearers should know of its existence. Could someone completely different have made another ring? If it were one of the smiths around Celebimbor, again, the elves should know, and nobody else had Sauron's knowledge. He could possibly have told someone else in an attempt to further his control? Perhaps, but to be mighty, it would have to have had a mighty smith, it would have to have been before him losing his fair form, and given how his plan just backfired, I doubt he would be too keen on risking the possibility of creating more Great Rings not under his control. Could someone have created rings without using his knowledge? Extremely unlikely. He chose the form of rings as vessels of power because it suited his purpose, the form is not inherently important. Even if a completely unrelated ring were created however,it would have been very different from Sauron's or the elven rings, as those reflect their own nature.
@@alexanderprahauser1261 It's also possible that there is some natural (or unnatural) limit on the creation of Great Rings - the three Elven Rings are each associated with one of the classical elements - Fire, Air and Water - so that only leaves Earth conspicuously vacant (and that could be accounted for by the Seven). Or the creation of the One and its control over the Nineteen could prevent any others from being forged successfully.
I sort of like the idea that the holders of the Elven rings could feel the other rings being used. We have Gandalf’s line at the end of The Hobbit when he tells Bilbo that his story has, “the ring of truth.” I want to say he even repeats that phrase “the ring of truth” to emphasize it and since Gandalf was gone for most of the story once the ring comes into play how did he know magic ring was involved anyways?
Gandalf only says that in the Rankin Bass film, not in the book.
@@TolkienLorePodcast I stand corrected. Cool. Now I back on the Elf ring bearers couldn’t sense the other rings side.
I've also been curious, so ok... Interesting question about galadriel and whether she was aware of the one rings existence being a ring bearer herself. But what about Sauron, the ring's creator. How was he not aware since the ring was him. Bilbo was using it freely in Mirkwood essentially next to Dul Goldor. And if we use the argument that he was in too weakened of a state, he had freely declared himself by the time Bilbo used it at his birthday party and was certainly strong enough then to sense it. I believe that was before he captured Gollom. Sauron should have had a heck of a head start over gandalf.
But we know Sauron can’t just sense the use of the Ring; there are too many instances in LOTR itself. The only time he does is in Mordor itself.
I think it was confirmed that he knew the ring was out there, active and trying to make its way back to him. But the uses of the Ring by Gollum, Bilbo and Frodo were so minor that it would probably have taken Sauron actively searching for any uses of the ring in the area where they were used to notice them.
@4:50 the bearers of the elvenrings sense when someone wears the one ring.. like when sauron put on the ring the elves took theirs off immediately since they sensed him.
Strictly speaking, it was when Sauron empowered the One Ring and sought to claim control over the other Great Rings and their wielders that his purpose was revealed to them - simply putting it on without intent wouldn't have done anything.
Gandalf Carries the Ring of Fire,Elrond the Ring of Water.Both were within arms reach for Decades.Gandalf Handles the Ring after Bilbo Escapes the Orces.All of the Them are Hobbits same Signatures.But You can Bet Sauron knew EVERY TIME Someone Put it On.Think a Finger in Your - ----.!The Ring Was Quiet until Gandalf put it in the Fire and Said the Ring Spell,Abet in Common Speech from that point Saurons Eye would Be Straining to See IT.
Elrond has the ring of air, actually. Also, Gandalf never handles the One Ring until just before throwing it in the fire in front of Frodo.
@@TolkienLorePodcast Thought that was Galadriel Ring of the Firment.Really was Sure Gandalf Handled it before the Eagles.In Any Case Was Next to it While Bearing an object of the Greatest Power.Made To find and Control Those Other Rings.BUT NO!.
Or Galadriel obviously lead Curunir/Saruman on so she could let him unveil his true nature as we now know him as the saruman of the many colors.
Outside the story it's an interesting fact tha not even Tolkien did know what kind of ring it was that Bilbo found from the beginning. When he started to write The Lord of the Rings he thought of one among many magic rings, just like the "lesser" rings. It wasn't until later that he desided that it of course should be THE ring, the One. This fact could have played a mane role in how the story was built in the first place.
Inside the story it is easy to explain it just as you do: Gandalf has been using 17 years to make it clear for himself how everything with the ring-lore has happened.
We can't forget the fact that in comparision this is as if the Grail should be found, or the lost ark, or something else that is 2000-3000 years old. If my friend was healed by drinking from a golden cup I should not immediately think "Oh, it MUST be the Grail!" I should be skeptical and think in other directions.
How did Gandalf get one of the 3 rings?
Cirdan the shipwrights gave it to him when he first came to Middle-earth.
@@TolkienLorePodcast Thank you :-)
Why was the Ring in the Anduin for so long?
Because it wasn’t found till Deagol got dragged to the bottom of the river by a fish.
@@TolkienLorePodcast Kinda strange how it was not corrupting anyone for so long; like you can just throw it away and you'll be fine.
What do you mean? It corrupted everyone who came to possess it, if only a little.
@@TolkienLorePodcast My point is that no one did have it for a very long time, so until the Ring was eventually found it wasn't corrupting anyone.
@@samuelterry6354
I think the hand wave is that The Ring remained inert until Sauron had regained his strength.
And it took him millennia to do that.
So your argument is Gandalf was guilty of appealing to authority fallacy? Fair enough not a plot hole Gandalf was just really bad at his job.
He was in wizard form for around what 2000 years and his job was to stop Sauron. You'd think he would find 1 out of 700,000+ days to stop by Minis Tirith and read a few documents.
But no Sauraman says the ring is gone forever, cool anyone for happy hour at Outback? I could murder a Bloomin Onion, first rounds on me. I'm driving...chicks dig the white horse!
Trusting Saruman doesn’t make him bad at his job. There was no reason to think he was dishonest and he was the literal world expert (other than Sauron) on the topic, and sort of Gandalf’s boss. Questioning him would be a huge step.
So, it's actually a huge plot hole 😱
I'm afraid that your two other explanations don't work 😨
In the beginning the Ring holders were Cirdan, Celebrimbor and Gil-galad. Galadriel got Celebrimbor's ring, Elrond got Gil-galad's ring and Cirdan gave his to Gandalf. None of the holders of the three rings at the time Sauron made the One Ring still had one a millennium+ before the time of LOTR.
Ok, ok, but hear me out:
Do you guys think the three of them felt it when frodo put on the ring in mount doom and proclaimed himself the lord of it?
Sauron clearly did. Gandalf was probably far too pre-occupied with not dying on the battlefield to notice. Galadriel, more than likely, noticed, seeing as how she had some sort of actual connection with Frodo and she WAS temped by The One Ring. Elrond... given his special abilities, I'm going to say yeah, he probably knew.
5:58 should be Frodo, not BIlbo.
Sometimes the old noggin crosses wires lol
Hi if smaug had incinerated Bilbo Baggins in the Hobbit would he have destroyed the one ring as Dragon fire can destroy the rains and the ring was in Bilbo’s pocket at the time just a thought what do you all think paul
Gandalf tells Frodo that dragon fire wouldn’t work on the One Ring.
@@TolkienLorePodcast thanks Smaug with the one ring that wood of been scary
So TL;DR, Saruman is being corrupted by Sauron, the ring was in the bottom of a river for two and a half millenia, and Google didn't exist.
Gandalf didn't realize it was the One Ring because he had seen too many winters... or too few.
Unlike the Watcher, who had a good look at what was happening in Eregion all those years ago
Come on Joshua. Frodo capitalized "G" and "R" in "Great Ring." So he could have misunderstood Gandalf.
" ... 'a' Great Ring clearly means there is more than one. Just like saying I ate dinner at a McDonald's.
@Enerdhil it’s been a while since I recorded this video; you’re going to have to remind me what specific part of the video you’re alluding to lol
@@TolkienLorePodcast
First, you said that the Nazgul had their Rings. They didn't. Sauron held those Rings the whole time they were Ringwraiths.
@@TolkienLorePodcast
Maybe I misunderstood whether you think Gandalf knew that Bilbo's Ring was the One Ring OR you just think it was one of the Rings of Power.😅
@@TolkienLorePodcast
Sorry I missed this gem of a video when it came out.
I think its tied to Sauron so when he was recovering the ring was silent.
Now when Gollum revealed the One Ring has resurfaced Sauron began the search for the ring and his ring acknowledged this by becoming "active" enough to draw attention to itself.
The Three ring wielders who remain free of Sauron's influence can sense the ring, but its only because of the meeting at Rivendell with Elrond that allowed Galadriel to know about Frodo.