This was great! Well done moderating by you Brandon and MFJJ is a class act! So much respect for him treating this conversation with class and not being condescending!
Thank you to the both of you for putting egos aside. The both of you have helped me out tremendously in the past so it’s awesome to see a melding of the minds. Brandon, thank you for facilitating this and trying to bring the archery community together.
The amount of information that the 3 of you just provided to all of us everyday guys who are out here doing our best to become better archers is absolutely priceless. Great job
Thanks Brandon - you gained a new subscriber as a result of this video. Regardless if you or MFJJ agreed with Troy or not, it was a respectful, well moderated discussion. Also you score bonus points for calling out Dudley for his disrespectful-ego driven video with Troy.
Thank you for not being disrespectful to Troy. He's tried to help the average guy and connects with normal bowhunters, not the pro type. JD's video said everything we need to know about him.
I like Troy! And I think he’s right about many things. I shot 615g for a season and killed many things at long distance. I’ve just realized his worst case scenario and mine are different
@brandonmcdonald6121 I don't want to sound like an A-hole, but you're wrong. Hitting bone and wounding an animal condemning him to a slow, painful death is horrible for the community of bowhunters. Just a few months ago, here in Central Florida, the local news ran a piece about deer that were shot in urban areas with bolts and arrows hanging out of them. That makes the public not very supportive of hunting in general. That's not remotely close to missing an animal.
Mannnnn I made it to 16:00 and couldn’t go any further, Brandon, thanks for the video big dog. Josh is a freaking compound genius. And after 16:00 dude is a class act and so far beyond the rest in terms of technical knowledge, explanation and testing. A privilege to have his information on the tube, FO FREE.
Very good video. I really enjoyed the conversation. Very informative. It makes me want to have Josh set up my bow. There’s a lot more common ground here than what people realize.
I have been privileged to have hunted Texas twice for hogs. My partners for those trips were some industry pros you've maybe heard of: Joe Jacks of Tightspot Quivers, Mike Ellig of Black Gold Sights, Don Dvorsnak of Ripcord, Wayne Endicott of The Bow Rack, Scott Turner from Turner's Outdoors, and many other well respected shop owners from around the country. I had the opportunity to sneak in on a 150# hog on a sendero one morning. I ranged the pig at 54 yards and dialed my Black Gold sight in, drew my Bowtech RPM360 (322fps arrow speed) and released the 378gr Gold Tip Velocity with a 2blade expandable Dead Ringer. My companion that morning, Scott, was looking at the hog through his binos and exclaimed. "You missed him!" as the pig lurched and ran off the road. From my angle the arrow pinwheeled. I scrunched my eyebrows, and asked him to walk up and stand where the hog was so I could range him. I knew the arrow blew through the hog so fast that he could be validated in thinking I'd missed. When he got to the spot, he paused and hollered back, "you got him!" as was evidenced by the blood on the road where it stood and the trail 10 yards to the carcass. My takeaway of that was, my arrow setup was perfect for the scenario I was hunting, for the animal I was hunting. My bow was well tuned, even though I'd replaced the strings just two days prior. I'll say this: placement, placement, placement. Build an arrow for the animal you're hunting, with consideration for the terrain and most common scenarios you'll find yourself in. There is a law of diminishing returns in everything you build... find the one you can shoot the BEST and shoot it well.
Couldn’t have said it better myself. I shoot a more moderate setup. 480 grain arrow around 280-290 fps, but the point of placement and diminishing returns is where the focus needs to be.
Troy hit it on the head with the working family guy , that is why his method is so popular , the guy who doesn’t have all the time in the world for this stuff. His dedication to bring actual proof to his theory’s are what sets him apart in my mind. I also watch the majority of mfjj’s videos as well his bow knowledge and what it takes to be accurate are second to none. Would love to have a shop and range like his on the east coast over here in Virginia. Great video!!
Thank you Brandon for getting you guys together for this podcast. I felt like there was a lot of information that was very helpful and more towards common ground between MFJJ and Troy. I've went down the rabbit hole, tinkered with my arrow set up thanks to MFJJ troy and Dan. Going to start another set up this spring going lighter but still having a fixed blade up front. Also you all should go to each other's places to do some hunting/shananagaings. Keep up the great work.
Great discussion guys! Lucas Palmer (engineer by trade) put out a video series comparing the kinetic energy and momentum down range with heavy and light arrows. He also discussed the importance of good arrow flight and shot placement. The heavy arrow did retain a greater percentage of kinetic energy and momentum at distance but a greater determination of penetration was broadhead type and sharpness and good arrow flight. In all fairness to John Dudley, he has helped many an archer learn how to work on their equipment and has great training tips. Big tall guys with 30 plus inch draw lengths have a much larger range of arrow builds, whether heavy or light, that will perform great on animals. Being on older archer with a 27 inch draw length and shooting 60 pounds I listen more intently when John talks about his son's or his wife's set up.
This was awesome! I think this podcast helped so many people. I know it helped me. I’m buying a whole new set up this year and there was so much info in this podcast I’m gonna think about when deciding what I’m gonna shoot.
This was awesome! I absolutely enjoyed the respectful debate. I have definitely learned a lot from Josh, Troy, and Brandon! You guys all need to go do a hunt together or at least make this a 4 part series.
Totally dig this... Awesome vid, thanks fellas! Great info... I've learned a lot from MFJJ on bow tuning, etc. A great tuned bow makes things so much more fun... Thanks guys1
Thanks for setting up the interview Brandon , I watch all three of you guys on utube , I like and respect all three of you, I also went to a heavier arrrow system them backed off a bit because of mfjj. Also thanks for bringing up the Dudley interview , I totally agree with you the way he treated Troy , I lost alot of respect for him that day. I was wondering why you didn’t bring up Tim when you finished but understand you don’t want to help him get to 100k first! lol 😂
I love this and both are saying the same thing love it. First make sure your bow is square next your brace is proper tune the arrow fine tune with the bow keep consistent form. Go as heavy as you can with a trajectory you are happy with single bevel cut on contact work the best. Use what you want have fun.
I agree that 15 minutes at the end would have been great at the beginning! Also thanks for calling out Dudley acting like a D bag in his interview with him. Awesome conversation! Do more of this!
I think this is a great discussion and illustrates how there's not always one right answer. I can see merits to both approaches. Over the years, I find myself gravitating (no pun intended) towards heavier arrows. Why? A) I've had random bumps or whatnot alter something on my rig between the test shot I take before leaving that same day and my shot on a deer, causing my point of impact to be off from where I was aiming. B) Sometimes an animal jumps or moves suddenly, not because they are jumping the string, but because some reaction to something else as I was just about to release. When that happens about or just before my drop, they're effectively able to cause poor shot placement faster than the math of jumping the string would imply. 3) Heavier arrows are further from dry fire, and likely promote longevity in compound bow and crossbow limbs, while also absorbing more energy overall (that is how the actual increase in momentum happens, so P2V2 is actually more than the lighter P1V1 though they are still close overall), while simultaneously providing a quieter shot. But all that aside, it's fascinating to see someone like Ryan Gill of Hunt Primitive go out and take anything from rabbits to buffaloes, with a totally homemade bow and arrow, shooting about five hundred fifty grains at a hundred fifty five feet per second. He still follows many of the principles of the Ashby foundation where possible of course...oh, and the fire hardened Hickory self bows per the fellows at Beckum Outdoors (one of the guy's channel's name) are proving to be as good as top grade industrial recurves. Go figure! Anyhow, hats off to these champions here who I have learned much from, thank you!
This was a great Interview I really enjoyed this and I think it did a better job capturing what all three of you bring to the sport and finding what works for you. Great work guys.
I remember when Troy was just starting the channel, I figured he would blow up. Little surprised he could be so successful with one main message and make so many videos. I have killed so much really big stuff with mechanicals and modest arrows that I tend to agree with more with the MFJJ approach. That said probably real value in the middle of these two approaches.
I disagree with being in the middle as far as arrow weight goes. Looking at performance efficiency percentages, the absolute worst thing you can do is be in the middle. You are better off going light and fast or going to the other end of the spectrum and going heavy and slow. Your performance gains with picking a middle of the road arrow weight are negligible.
@@michaelvstheworld3680 seems to be a pretty common link that most good hunters don’t care what there foc is as long as there getting around 280 to 300fp if your like cam and can pull 90p your going to be throwing a heavier arrow due to spine if nothing else
@@paulheberling2750that depends entirely on the profile of the cam. You can hit depreciating returns well into being in the middle before you get “heavy”
I wish I could get 10 to 12 hunting days a year, 4 kids, and they even like to go with me. And that's why Troy resonates with so many people, and so do you Josh, Dudley I think wants to help everyone as well but yeah he doesn't realize most of us can't shoot every day I try to go once a week, again my kids like it too so that helps but not everyone has even that. Thank you gentlemen for this conversation! God bless!
I'm excited to build a heavy arrow for next season. I hunt whitetail up close in thick woods. Ranch fairly is really nice, mfjj great bow tech, awesome video. Thanks everyone, and also the host
Thanks Brandon for putting these two together. Would be better all in the same room but, ill take what you can give! I watch both these guys and understand where they are both coming from. I run a very sharp broadhead that wont bend, but also a lighter arrow. My FOC is 16% on my current arrow and shoots great to 70yrds. Before I started dialing in on the arrow, I made the bow the best I could then focused on the arrow. I had to do less to the arrow doing it that way. I run a Bowtech Solution 65lbs, 27.5. and a 425 grain arrow with Magnus Buzzcuts 125s. Im an east coast hunter.
I’m a fan of all the above. I’ve met Dudley at Tac. He was cool an humble as can be. Spent all day on the range an afterwards hanging out with people. That being said he did come off as being somewhat of an Ahole. Dudley an Troy have different Philosophy’s an different consumer base. Dudley imo is more toward the serious/archery nerd, while Troy is more the regular Joe. I think Dudley was coming from more of a precise/precision standpoint an Troy’s like I just want to kill stuff lol. Honestly I feel like a lot of guys don’t practice enough/ don’t make sure their equipment is 100 before hunting. To me arrow placement is the key. But to each their own.
Brandon, I am glad you mentioned the condescending interview with Dudley. He obviously had his own agenda and was totally disrespectful to Fairy’s point of view. This was a more informative interview. Keep up the good work. Love your videos.
I think I've learned more about archery on this conversation that 100 hours watching other videos, mfjj, Dudley, and Troy included. That conversation with Troy being a new Archer was so helpful, could be a good video to watch Josh set up a new/newish guy in his shop. Would be awesome!
GREAT! Thank you! For getting those together! The interview with John nock was horrible and he lost me totally….with his disrespect! This vlog is what we need! Thank you!
Fantastic conversation. It's great to see two people come together to discuss fun things in an open manner. One thing I think turned a lot of people against Troy a few years back was the whole bending the bow thing and you can just do the arrow. I cringed when I heard that and I think most bow techs and archers did. You've got to start with a perfect tune then move to the arrow. Glad to hear that clarification. The "ideal" setup is one that can shoot multiple spines and point weights as mentioned. I agree with both on a multitude of things. I absolutely prefer Troy's aiming point into the vital V. MFJJ's aiming point didn't strike me as logical unless the animal doesn't move - but then he said animal movement is number 1.. Let's dive in - if animal movement is the driving factor then we know the direction of movement is down, steps forward or turning/rolling away. In all instances - Troy's aiming point is still valid as if the animal steps forward - it hit where MFJJ was aiming in the first place. If the animal rolls and turns away it will lead to effective shot further back - Troy's aim point wins. Now to the vertical: the height of the vitals varies as it goes back on the deer as the lungs are at a slight diagonal - Troy's aim point wins as it has the most vertical forgiveness. MFJJ if the animal doesn't drop enough he could be diaphragm, liver, stomach. Personally - I've had issues with this and it's a top consideration for me. Even aiming vital V - my animal losses are 100% attributed to a slightly too far back but low shot. If I hit higher - I probably would have clipped more vitals. But the animal didn't drop and walking shots and target panic on animals yields to what I believe is a tendency to gravitate towards center of mass on an animal and squeeze one off (but maybe that's just me). One point to Troy in my book. Now to the next items - A few thing I'd like to see Troy be more open minded to. I'll continue in my next comment on this post.
I think Troy is understandable where he comes from and he's dealing with the data coming into him. He gets people who have had penetration problems and they want a solution so it doesn't happen again. He solved the equation for the data provided. The problem is it's a skewed data set and it gives a false impression of the lethality problem. Consider this: There's 3.5 million or so bow hunters in the US alone. Just for an example let's say 5% of those hunters have had penetration issues - That's 175,000 hunters and is not insignificant. Let's say one in 100 of those people it was enough of a concern that they reach out to RF and ask for advice. That's 1,750 emails or comments to Troy that is responding to. People aren't designed to take this much confirmation bias in - we can take some but not at this scale. Now, I don't know if that's accurate as I'm obviously not in his inbox but he gets a lot of views. Probably half of which are from guys like me who just like to nerd out and pick things that make sense to improve our build even though we haven't had penetration issues. That's whole, whole lot of confirmation bias that Troy is getting. Every influencer is facing the same type of problem. We're not designed to take in this much data. Personally, I'm not sold that Troy is handling this well as there are items that he just won't concede to be true that are provably true. In this video that example was flight time to target. Troy put out several videos on this issue and made assertions that he believes to be true and stated that the math doesn't work. The problem is - it does work. We can use Ranch Fairy's data from his velocity erosion video to do an example. At 30 yards it will take a 436 grain arrow (281 fps launch, 273 fps avg to 30 yds) around 330 milliseconds. A 718 grain out of the same setup will take around 410 milliseconds. This means that the arrow will arrive 25% later than the faster arrow. Now this is only the time for the arrow to get there, we need to deduct the amount of time it take for the first sound of the bow to get there (1125.33 FPS) - which is .08 seconds. And the reaction time of say .08 as well (2x faster than a male sprinter). Taking this into account the animal (if it choses to) has MINIMUM 50% more time to react to the 718 grain arrow at ONLY 30 yards. This is not irrelevant!! Especially because gravity accelerates and animal with time. If you think that an animal won't react more given 50% more time you're on more crack than these whitetail are. Yes, an animals movement is unpredictable. What we do know is that we want to minimize this unpredictability. Think of it this way - in the additional time it takes for the 718 grain arrow to get to the target the 436 grain arrow will have traveled 37 yards. Can an animal react more if you take a shot at further distance? Yes. If you take this argument presented in this video then you have the believe that a 30 yd shot is no more ethical than 37 shorter shot as it relates to animal movement. Which is not true. The best case for minimizing movement using a heavy arrow is that brings down bow noise & arrow noise. Drag is proportional to velocity squared and a faster arrow will be louder in flight because of that. It will make that noise slightly longer though. A heavier arrow will bring down the noise of your bow over a really light arrow, but not that much over a moderate weight arrow. This needs tested and is extremely difficult to do repeat - I think this answer will be one of the last given if we ever get it. Probably will be debated for a long, long time.
Next point - Troy has solved the equation that his hunting conditions/target species and it works fantastic for him so that further confirms his recommendations for arrows. Every time it works it confirms his solution. The problem is this still he's solving for his equation and it has different weighting. I'm good at bad metaphors so I'll try one. In the construction world we are trying the first item to increase safety is engineering controls - meaning that the design of the workspace and other factors will allow for safer installation. I've done big jobs where this wasn't taken into consideration or the design could only allow get the task "so" safe. Unacceptable but you've got to work in that constraint to statistically minimize the concerns. At Troy's Ranch situation he's got control over the design. He can use his setups to eliminate as many variables as possible. Get the feeder just right, known distance, hunt this one on this wind, set your seat up so your not torqueing for your anticipated shot location, etc. For me - and large swath of the public land or western community - I can't do most of that. I can't trim branches, I don't have enough cash to pay for a lease or have multiple stands locations, I'm usually scouting and identifying my hunt location based on features/conditions and it varies hunt to hunt. Or I'm western hunting and run and gun. These variables are being inputted into our equations and affect our hunting situations. Which is why our end result is different.
Its crazy how far bows have come. I started bow hunting in 2006 or 2007 using my dad's 1994 Alpine Whisperflite. That thing was like a 40-41ATA bow and shot so slow, the deer had 3-5 business weeks to move. When I went to a 30" Martin Cheetah in 2012, it was a game changer, and last year, I got the SS34, which is awesome.
You 3 are awesome. This was cool. Brandon you were a great mediator and MFJJ is wealth of knowledge. Troy is also awesome. We all can learn things from MFJJ.
Nicely done guys and it seemed like an honest conversation. I am a western elk hunter and feel that shooting a Troy arrow set up (thanks Troy) with an MFJJ tuned bow is probably the perfect setup for hunting success. Since adopting the Ashby Study on arrow lethality, Troy's study on shot placement and bows tuned to MFJJ specs my harvest rate has increased. I did learn from MFJJ (thanks Josh) that I need to check my cams at full draw and maybe focus on adjusting my hand position a little more. I agree John Dudley was a jerk and the EZ-V sight is a meat axe.
At around 1 hour, Brandon says your not going to get Troy to agree with that, as far as shooting a lighter arrow beyond 40 yards, then the subject once again gets changed, Troy talking about shooting a 400 against a 600 grain arrow at 60 yards or whatever, Josh was about to say the arrow drop is a very important consideration between those 2 arrows but Troy just kept forging ahead and Josh never got to make the point, same thing happened with shot placement and hitting bone vs guts. I have great respect for Troy, Josh, Brandon and yes, Dudley. The problem as I see it is that Troy for the most part refuses to compromise 99.9% of the time, Josh was very respectful and because of that was ever, ever so subtly bulldozed, just my opinion. Troy would make a very, very good prosecutor, and again, I love all 4 of the guys mentioned above and I am subscribed to all of them. I also listened to the John Dudley podcast and I to was very uncomfortable listening to it, but I think Brandon mistakes condescending with frustrated on John’s part and yes maybe he lost his cool a bit but as I saw it, again in a very subtle and irritating way Troy did not show much respect for his opinions and the same went for Josh in this podcast in my humble opinion! That being said I’ll probably be asking for Troy’s advice in the future over some thingamajiger and if he does read this comment and recognize my call name I know he’ll let it roll off like water off a ducks back and do everything he can to help me! Hope I didn’t offend to many people with this comment! 😂 God Bless!
I'd like to jump in here. I asked these guys to help me work on my knowledge of bow tuning and answer some questions I get from people who ask me questions so I can help them. This discussion was not about the arrow. It was my request for these guys to spend their time with me, thus a civilized person stays on the rails of the conversation.
@RanchFairy I think this was a great discussion Troy. Unlike some others I have watched and the intentions of other people you have had conversations with are different from what these guys intentions appear to be. I believe there is somewhat of a disconnect with the western hunter and eastern hunters and these types of conversations help those two groups of people come together and help understand 2 totally different types of hunting styles
@@jeremymeyer891 I'm still noodling the western vs eastern thing. Here's what I can't get past. Western animals are larger. Mule deer / Elk / Bears. Why are we giving up Arrow mass to shoot further, which reduces impact energy at the target? I've studied the momentum of different arrow mass - at 60 yards. A 550 grain arrow has more momentum than a 388 grain arrow at launch....(not at 60 yards, ). 550 isn't that heavy and very practical for 80 yards. As noted, I am noodling this but it's something I can't get past. Currently building arrows to shoot 100 yards at TAC and will report back.
@RanchFairy I totally agree 100%, I think the only animal I would switch to a lighter setup would be pronghorn. I have hunted other western game and they just do not react the same as whitetail and they are bigger so I don't fully understand the whole Pin Gap thing. We don't shooting paper or foam at 100 yards, we are trying to put 2 holes in a deer at 30-35 yards.. that is our most common customer which I feel is the majority of the bowhunting community. The Gemini 250 is quickly becoming our most popular arrow. 550 with awesome FOC and it flies like a dart and very hard hitting. Different strokes for different folks.
Love how you guys are pretty open to different setups but having knowledge of setups for different application. I've shot really light setup380-400 gen 10%foc and took marginal shots with no success on white tail. But I have taken same shots with 440-470 grn with 18% fox and fixed head and recover them. The shot I'm referring to is 200lb plus white tail straight under ya through the back and poked out sternum. My go to set up for pretty much North America game is the 440-470 grn 18% foc and I'm 28.5 draw 68-72lbs usually depends on bow and normally I'm around 270-285 fps range
The speed issue is where they diverge but I think the visor guy factored that in to his testing as he says he analyzed deer movement after loose. He seemed to convey that because the reactions vary, no matter the speed of the arrow, and the fact even speed bows can miss, it’s a factor he does not feel he needs to solve for. Instead, he would rather have an arrow that will penetrate no matter what, including if it hits the bone. I think I’ll go that way. I shoot mule deer and elk so maybe speed matters less to me
Moral of the story: ride the middle. With all of the scientific and anecdotal information available on this topic it keeps directing me towards shooting a well tuned bow, a quiet, relatively fast arrow, with a super sharp broadhead. Shooting 340 grains is just as dumb as shooting 750 grains. Reasonableness is the answer unless you hunt in a highly specific microcosm of conditions that require specificity for success.
@@paulheberling2750 270-280 is still 0.6-08 slugs of momentum weapon of archery depending and that will go through any bone. Ashby with his 115 lb long bow 600 grain arrow was only 0.9- 1 slug of momentum. 270-280 is quite perfect get it to fly straight and true. If you are using a lighter poundage bow you may want a little more weight but of course naturally you would also be closer because this would be trad or primitive archery now.
@@chrisruzsa2798 momentum is the least of my worries. Having a good trajectory that is forgiving so that you can hit what your aiming at is more important to me being a spot and stalk hunter
Watching at work... Preciatte.. 2 boys another on the way... I get out to hunt a handful of times a year... I'm an accountant by trade. Love ranch fairy and the conversation he started
Just broke open a bottle of Blantons and watched this great conversation. Yes, MFJJ is right about the bow being tuned. I think Troy has guys thinking about the Ashbey rules, and heavier arrows to penetrate animals when they move. I think speed is important too. There has to be a happy medium between a well tuned bow, a solid arrow platform, and it's up to me to figure it out. Thanks guys for all you do to help the average joe bow hunter.
With a modern compound and your bow is tuned correctly, cam timing, in spec, center shot, grip placement, that bow will shoot a multitude of arrows , weights & spines and shoot bullet holes. Changing the arrows that significantly is trying to fix other issues with the setup. Changing the arrow setup that much to get the bow to shoot good is how you tune a traditional bow. When you can’t control center shot… I tune my recurves by shooting bullet holes. Cutting a half inch off of a shaft can change a left tear to a bullet hole with traditional equipment. Small changes make a huge difference. It is not like that with a compound if the bow is setup correctly from the start.
I assume you did not mean to respond to me!? I never once said anything about arrow weights. Or what I believe is the ideal hunting arrow weight. You said a lot of things that I never even mentioned. All I was talking about was tuning the arrow to the bow vs the bow to the arrow. I never once said a single thing about “arrow weight” lol
I have such a wide range of point weights that shoot clean with a bare shaft that I almost stopped caring. Didn't change from 250 spine with 100-200 grains, nor with 200 spine 100-200 grains.
Okay, I have followed Troy since day one. I had already been bow hunting for many years before I found him. I never once thought his message was to shoot 800 grain arrows and all else be dammed. That is a gross mischaracterization of the guy. His message to me has always been make sure your shit is shooting straight, use a good broadhead, make sure it is sharp, stiffen your arrow, and get your FOC up. I dumped my light arrow and went up to 455 grains with 15% FOC. My performance on game went through the roof. I learned to tune from watching Dudley. This all made the video with the two very painful. Lastly, if you have shot as many big pigs as Troy you would understand where he is coming from better. I have and you ain't getting through them and killing them consistently with a 300-400 grain arrows and mechanical broadheads. An elk doesn't have shit on a 350# real wild boar. You also can't argue with Ashby on what happens when an arrow contacts a game animal. He has the data. Milk jugs, foam, and plastic squares are not meat and bones. The argument lies in where the happy medium occurs. People need to chill out and be friends about it. All this is supposed to be fun.
@ 40yrds the flight time between a 485g arrow and a 560g arrow with 60# 28.5DL is .05secs (.48secs vs .52secs) The deer is moving but not that fast. How many guys walk into a pro shop and to save their egos blame the deer's speed vs their shot? The same argument that is used to say don't hit the bones can be applied to don't shoot over their backs; become a better archer. Deers move yep, hunters miss too.
Completely agree, of all the hunters that claim "time to target" as the reason they missed are full of shit. Taking bad shots at alert game and missing by 6" doesn't sound as good as the deer moved...
This was epic, I been hoping for ranch fairy and mfjj to talk, The next step is for MFJJ to do a hunt video with Ranch Fairy and use a 650grain setup and for Ranch Fairy to be forced to use a light setup, Say 420 grains. It would be great to see them shoot opposite setups and see how they work out in real life, better yet, they should be forced to use that setup for a full season and show their results, it could be a really cool series.
When Troy brought up the arrows destabilizing after 50 I was reminded of sportsman's arrows that have straight fletch that would sometime have 1 fletch slightly left or right offset from the other 2. Those things were really good up to 58 1/2 yards.
Thank you for this! I am subscribed to all 3 : Ranch fairy, snort the dust. Love it. MFJJ, just because of the passion, with all the benefits. Thanks a million, Brandon. Fine job, and enjoy all your content. Thanks Guys.
when an arrow is fighting to correct its self it is consuming energy, when you over rotate an arrow " heavy helical" loud and noisey your using up energy
RF was totally right with his take on the Dudley pod. And that’s the treatment normal guys get at bow shops. A guy who sits behind a counter selling archery stuff for a living will look at you and say here’s your bow this is what you need. I shoot a 29” draw and stand at 5’7”. Most bow shops will scold me and switch it to 26”. I had to search for a shop that would tune the bow to me not to what their chart says. Starting shooting bowtech and buying arrows separate so I could change the setup at home until I found a shop that listens to the customer
I don't touch the local shop anymore. Similar reasons. I'm 5'10" and shoot just over 30". The dude also told my trad buddy at 45# to shoot a mechanical. I don't know how he's still in business.
@@YoureSoVane I looked really hard to find one, a group of guys who tinkered in the garage because of the reasons we mentioned so much they started a shop.
@@YoureSoVane I was on the same level until I started going the f.o.c. Route. Cams needed shimmed and didn’t have the equipment. Was about to buy it all before I found them. Gave them 20 questions before making the drive
Animals, when they spook, generally don't move backward. So by aiming forward your maximizing your target size. Same reason why people aim low. And if you tell someone to aim low people will generally agree, but if you tell them to aim forward they'll all freak out.
Really enjoyed this I think anyone with a strong opinion should have what they say challenged it’s a good way to see if the fully understanding what they are putting out there or not. In a debate if you can put forward good counter points and explanations to arguments your theory holds weight. I think troys info is only relevant to people that don’t want to put to much time into archery and are shooting out of a blind or tree at a known distance at 30 yards. There is a reason every exceptionally good bow hunter sits in the middle ground with arrow weight
I agree with everything said but fairy is right about the vital V yes it puts you closer to bone but shooting forward lower 1/3 has made a massive difference on the animals I've harvested. The good old double lung works but the top of that heart just puts them down so much faster and gives more room for error. You hit back you get lungs you hit forward, and smash threw shoulder/bone and get arteries/windpipe.
They keep saying the worst case scenario is guts and yes that’s the worse case for HUNTING but an arrows worst case scenario is bone. They keep missing that point
The arrow noise talk I feel is accurate. Loud arrows cause reaction more than bow. I used gopro to record my arrows from point of target and you can barely hear my apa bow over the arrow coming in with 2" vanes. Switched to quite vanes and it's a massive difference.
Thanks guys, MFJJ, yes, I am probably a great example of someone you are trying to help, 2 kids, not much time or money left, but love to learn more about tuning my trx38!! I tried 1 paper tune shot, was not sure what I was looking at! Seems like my rest is too far over right, but is shoots my 27's pretty straight out to 45yrds Love my Zebra strings, peep is good.
Both of you are right. The arrow is flying from the moment it is released. One of you is talking about the flight behind the riser, the other out front of the riser. In the end ANY flight that is outside of a straight line to the target results in energy loss.
I've taken bits of info from both these guys. I built my arrows for elk and did all my homework. Never hunted elk before and went out solo and shot a giant bull, quartering and had a full pass through. That elk went 80yds tops and was dead in less than 5 min. A well tuned bow and smartly built arrows were the key to my success for sure. I practiced a ton so I new where my arrow was going.
I don’t often comment but feel the need to here.. Please continue to chase knowledge….. humbly. I believe it was a great video, where three people were honestly willing to learn and teach at the same time. There was no dick measuring, and I felt like there was also no concern about what the audience thought about anybody individually, but that everybody was interested in learning more. Some of the best video content I’ve watched in a while. I believe it truly helped people shoot their bow better. And also think more clearly about the equipment they use and what they’re actually wanting to do with that equipment. Instead of just pushing the latest greatest most expensive thing that is out there.
Great content video however the audio was poor. No doubt MFJJ is the wizard of archery knowledge and tuning and truly wants to help the average person in understanding their archery equipment. Been watching Troy for awhile and like what he and Dr. Ashby have to say but not sure I buy into a heavy arrow for deer and elk, Cape buffalo or Kudu yes. Main takeaway is whatever broadhead you use make sure it is scalpel sharp. Just because it’s in a package doesn’t mean it’s sharp. Brandon, this is my first time seeing you but you seem very interesting and knowledgeable and I have subscribed. At some point I will make the 4 hour drive to come checkout Nashville North Archery. Keep up the content!!!
I'm 5'11" and always preferred a 33" - 35" bow for hunting and 3D. Height has little to due with it IMHO. Would love to hear a discussion with Josh regarding tuning a "hybrid bow", where different arrow types for target, 3D, hunting may be in play. Tune for each per season, or is there a generic tuning profile one can use?
I’ve messed with light, heavy and mid weight setups with compound and I think it just depends on how you hunt and setup. I hunt from the ground in thick brush. So all shots are close and at weird angles. If your furthest clear shot is 30 yards there’s not an appreciable difference in drop of deer between a 300gr and 700gr arrow. So for me I would rather have as heavy of arrow as possible so that shot selection isn’t as limited. I’ve been almost purely selfbowd the last several years and there’s not a noticeable speed difference in speeds of different arrow weights so might as well shoot heavy as what flies cleanly
I’ve followed everyone in this video and Dudley from the beginning . I think in the beginning Troy would try to change the point weight to manipulate how the arrow bends for a perfect bullet hole. In reality a well tuned bow will bullet hole with a wide range points and spine. I’d argue that is not the correct way. Even if he says the bow must be right. He said in this podcast that people send him pics with all the arrows shooting bullet holes with the kit. So my point is he might’ve said the bow must be right but he wasn’t following or understanding that in the beginning of his channel.
@RanchFairy exactly Troy. It's about learning sir. What I think alot of what people forget is that when Troy admits up front what he doesn't know, he isn't saying hey, don't worry about it because I don't know. He is saying, don't look to me for this. He isn't saying Bow tuning isnt important. Never has.
I agree with the shot placement your saying Brandon..I have hunted for idk almost 30 years and I have never seen a deer drop and go backwards lol..they always drop and go forward so there for guts more likely for sure
@@josephr1198 for me why try to hit a baseball when I can hit a basketball... and one point no ones talks about is tracking , which sould be a big part of woodsman ship so I don't cair how far it runs...people tend to sucked in to one or to topics and not the over all picture
@chrismacomber9727 you're intentionally aiming for a smaller target when you aim back given that animals move forward. You're going the opposite of what you think your doing.
@josephr1198 lol last I checked the lungs are bigger than the hart ..but the point I was making was I think a bigger cut is better because your more likely to hit guts than bone..and idc about the should I blow right through with a 1.75 cut.. I just think that the to bones in the leg is what %2 of the body but the hart lungs and liver and guts are what %50 so what you think your most likely to hit ?? The %2 or the %50..
@chrismacomber9727 let me phrase this another way since you appear to be having issues visualizing my point. Do you aim above the midline on a deer? No of course you wouldn't because the deer drops, you aim below, that way if it doesn't move you still hit, and if it does drop you still hit because you gave yourself room for that. So if animals also tend to move forward, why would you eliminate the front half of your target by aiming at or behind the crease? You are deliberately chosing a smaller target by doing this. If I'm aiming at the heart and the deer moves forward, I hit lungs. If you're aiming behind the crease and the deer moves forward, you're hitting guts.
Great information. I believe a huge part of this is the fact that people tend to focus on one thing and glaze over the other. This maybe outta pocket a bit but as for J Dudley I believe he is in touch with his customers mainly because he doesn’t have an actual open to the public store. So if you come across his info and start down that path you can decide for yourself if his Kool-aide is for you. Just like MFJJ or Ranch Fairy. It’s a few different ways to fry chicken 🍗 Crestco, Air Fry, or good ole fashioned oil I can make them all “Finger-licking “ good JMHO though
This makes sense to me, Troy has never said you don’t have to start straight! Troy was always focused on foc, 550-700 grain weight , sharp broad heads , and always said it’s all good if everything goes right with lower grain Troy like him but a bit hung up on pigs :) and that’s cool.
I know this is old but I can't help myself, just to throw this out there about his helicopter analogy. The most tuned in deer I have ever hunted was on a small farm in the middle of town next to an actual helicopter field. Most hunts have constant choppers over head and its under a flight pattern for passenger jets. Its never quit, and those are the hardest deer I have hunted. The neighbors wouldn't even know they were there if their rose bushes weren't getting mowed down at night by the 20 or so deer that frequent the 20 acre woodlot.
Good ole’ RF just keeping to his same old narrative. He says that he doesn’t care and goes on to talk about all the other things that are more important to him in life than this archery thing. Yet he’s still using his name to sell product and still causing division in the archery community. RF claims that Dudley is the one that doesn’t know the audience, but that couldn’t be farther from the truth. Dudley was a broke kid sleeping in his truck chasing his dream. A dream that came true from a ton of hard work. He may rub some people the wrong way, but he’s not wrong, RF is. Here’s why RF is wrong about him and Dudley having different audiences. Wait for it…. the fundamentals of archery are all the same…. It doesn’t matter if you shoot a couple times a year, a couple times a month or a couple times a day. THE FUNDAMENTALS ARE EXACTLY THE SAME! There is no cheat code but RF keep convincing people that there is. Let’s start with the bow tuning part. RF says in the his videos that you have to start with a tuned bow. Yet doesn’t know how to tune a bow or whether or not his bow is actually in tune. Then goes on to sell a test kit to help people get a bullet hole through paper and better arrow flight. But this product isn’t needed on a tuned bow and doesn’t in any way even tune the bow. It’s sold and a cheaper and easier tool for the “average joe”. But we already know that the fundamental for a average joe and professional are exactly the same. So lets look at the time and the cost. I know my local shop may not be the same as all shops across the county. But my shop offers free bow tuning in the slow months in the winter no matter where you bought the bow. During the season they will charge a customer to tune a bow that wasn’t bought from their shop. But the shop rate is only $60 an hour and will charge in half hour increments. The last bow I bought of marketplace cost me 30 minutes of time and the shop and whooping 30 bucks to walk out with perfectly tunes bow shooting bullet holes in paper and perfect down ranch flight (and it was definitely not tuned when I walked into the shop). There is no way a RF test kit is going to be cheaper and easier than this. Now lets look at the shooting form and technique side of things. Again RF claims that he’s not a good shot and goes on to sell products with the notion that they are again a cheat code. If you buy the cheat code, you don’t have to have good form and technique or be a good shot. You just gotta hit the animal anywhere and the cheat code arrow will do the rest. This is again sold as a cheat code for the average joe who’s never going to be as good of a shot as Dudley. But again we all know that the fundamentals are exactly same for an average joe and a professional. The average joe should be watching Dudley’s video and learning to shoot better instead of watching RF and learning that they can kill it no matter where you hit so no need to do it right… Or go to a shop and pay for an instructor for an hour to teach you proper shooting form and technique. Because again this is actually cheaper and faster than buying a test kit and building a building heavy arrow. So again Dudley audience IS the average joe. The pro’s don’t need to watch him. The person that doesn’t have a lot of time should be. Because following him will produce better results faster and for less money than buying into RF’s cheat code arrow propaganda. And if Dudley rubs you the wrong way there are other people putting out videos that teach tuning, form and technique. A few that come to mind are Podium Archer, Joel Turner for shot executions, and George Ryals for shooting form. RF talks about the other activities that he excels at like fishing, shot gun shooting and golf. Does he try and sell those industry cheat cope products to get around the basic fundamentals? Is he making golf videos telling the average joe golfer that with a cheat code golf club you can get better result while ignoring the fundamentals? I bet he’s not and would get laughed out of the industry. Yet why is it different in the archery community. Why has an alarmingly large number of people in this community embraced a cheat code mentality that cost them more time and money than just starting with the basic fundamentals? This question is why Dudley and some of the other industry experts that actually know what they are doing and so frustrated with RF. Most are doing a good job of being professional and politically correct about it. I know Dudley came across as condescending. But image how golf pro’s would react to a average joe becoming an “industry expert” selling snake oil golf clubs. They would laugh at him and laugh at all the people buying into it. The moral of the story is, if people would just put in the small amount of time and money that it takes to establish the basic fundamentals of archery, RF would be irrelevant. Get your bow in tune and arrows flying perfect. Always practice good form and technique when shooting (no matter how much or how little that is) and use a sharp broadhead. If people did this, they would have probably never had any desire to change their arrow weight because they would be getting great result like the industry experts have been saying for decades. And before anyone thinks I’m some kind of RF hater, I’ve watched about every video he’s made in the last 4 years. I have drawers full of heavy components and expensive arrows I no longer shoot. “Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me”.
Amen. The fact that this guy is even relevant is a mockery of our sport. Most of us take a lot of pride in what it took to become bowmen and your exactly right when we see snake oil we are going to call it. I actually enjoyed watching Dudley nuke fairyland. Happy hunting
This was great, the one I watched with John and Troy was awful, it was hard for me to watch. And what is sad is I love all of Johns videos but I look at him differently now, maybe that will pass. But MFJJ has sold me on a bow, I’ll be getting the Darton Consequence. Shoulder issues so I’m going to give it a try and 59 years old. 😂
My buddy always tells me to get that longer axle to axle bow with more brace height but he hunts open prairie and i hunt tree stands and ground blinds and WILL NOT shoot an animal past 30 yards because thats all i feel comfortable with so i prefer a shorter bow.. currently shoot a 32"
The physics definitely says that kinetic energy would decrease on a bow that is out of time or has back cam lean. If it’s perfectly tuned we should see 100% of the potential energy in the bow transition to 100% KE in Z plane. If the the bow is out of tune there is a loss of energy to the target through the addition of KE in the x and y planes. The potential energy of the bow will always be the same if draw weight and length stay consistent
Heavy vs light energy aside I think the benefits of a lighter arrow for hunting at 30+ yards is the flatter trajectory as well, if you misjudge distance or if the animal moves more than u realize.
I’ve had 1 black tail buck duck an arrow at 30 yards, arrow speed 280. My fault at aiming for double lung, should have aimed at the heart. Next buck was a heart shot at 45 deer didn’t move.
Again, by the time that I 'heard' an arrow whizzing toward me at 220 MPH, I would then see it buried behind me, after it went thru my torso! It's the sound of the bow, not the vanes, imo.
Other than the audio, maybe next time on Skype or something, this interview is one of the best we have gotten. I am partial to both MFJJ and RF, they are the two most influential people/channels for me since getting into archery. Even with their different methodologies, I have had no problem taking advice and considerations from both and incorporating them into my own setups. I never had any idea how hard it is for the archery community to do that until these past couple years. I mentioned this in a comment on another video, but time to target is one of the most overrated factors when it comes to most modern setups. The factor shouldn't ever be, missing by less, but where will I aim and what will it hit. Heavier arrows shed speed/momentum less over distance, are quieter, less effected by elements (wind/rain), penetrate more, and have a bigger window of lethality by being able to aim/miss forward towards the shoulder. In the case of animals moving, a heavier arrow has a larger window of lethality and is more accurate outside of perfect conditions. In general, I would lean an arrow setup down towards 250fps than up at 300fps.
Based on your comment, I’m sure you totally understand why 250 ft./s with the set up you were talking about is acceptable to you. I think there’s a decent amount of guys out there that don’t do the research all the way and don’t understand what’s happening
@@brandonmcdonald6121 I agree and even as I wrote the comment again, I realized it's mostly a moo point to make anyways. People will ultimately shoot what they are confident and successful with. No studies or research will necessarily change that, nor should it really. There is always going to be a best way, but never an only way in archery.
At 25:00….when they are talking about broadhead…what I’ve seen in the industry these days-a lot are made out of cheap Chinese mystery metal and they only harden the edge of the blade and that is it….what most WT hunters don’t understand-why they should be shooting a heavier arrow (500-525 grn 15-19FOC) is that WT reaction time 1/10 of a sec-read Chuck Adams-shocking science of string jumping….it’s not just the scapula you have to get thru…it’s a rib and possibly spinal Y bone-especially if your hunting from a tree stand….and what Troy is talking about with pigs and reaction time and losing KE bc the pig moves and shooting a lighter arrow-doesn’t work at 30….excellent video
Also a faster arrow is a louder arrow-ie WT will move/react more-you’re not beating those reflexes!….quiet your setup! Your light arrow is making more noise…Troy is absolutely correct about the hissing! Heavy arrow is a quieter arrow…I hunt with a traditional bow because I believe it’s actually a better system-complete system.
Ranch Fairy seems not to understand that if the "kinetic energy machine" isn't delivering the projectile at the fullest level of efficiency then the kinetic energy isn't transferring to its fullest potential from the bow, to the arrow, to the animal. The Kinetic energy of the bow might be the same if it's tuned well or not but how it delivered the arrow is definitely not the same.
I was BC for 30 years then went light carbon with mechanicals didn’t know what was going on but I kept losing animals they would go three 400 yards where they used to go 20or 30 till I listen to the ranch ferry and I finally figured it out, so went back to heavy fixed. Magnus never had a problem sense , not extremely heavy but 150 fixed and overall 500 total weight
When I listen to these discussions and they hit those points of contention that everybody has an opinion but nobody has a definitive answer on, All I can think of is that's the next thing to really test. The Hb study has so many data points.It's insane. Now it's time to find one on short placement. Is it random? Does arrow speed matter to shot placement? Etc.
I think we will debate this forever. Even with all the testing, the issue is we don’t have a consistent target. Even the exact same animal can move completely differently
@@brandonmcdonald6121 I think we need a huge sample, gathered with care and accuracy. We need thousands hits on an INCONSISTENT target, with measured results, including things like the course of penetration (not just hit location), length of the blood trail, and time to recovery. Thats how we do a lot of medical studies. Indeed, that isnt likely to happen.
This was great! Well done moderating by you Brandon and MFJJ is a class act! So much respect for him treating this conversation with class and not being condescending!
This is everything the podcast with Dudley should have been but wasn’t. Absolutely amazing video guys.
Thank you to the both of you for putting egos aside. The both of you have helped me out tremendously in the past so it’s awesome to see a melding of the minds. Brandon, thank you for facilitating this and trying to bring the archery community together.
The amount of information that the 3 of you just provided to all of us everyday guys who are out here doing our best to become better archers is absolutely priceless. Great job
Thanks Brandon - you gained a new subscriber as a result of this video. Regardless if you or MFJJ agreed with Troy or not, it was a respectful, well moderated discussion. Also you score bonus points for calling out Dudley for his disrespectful-ego driven video with Troy.
Thank you for not being disrespectful to Troy. He's tried to help the average guy and connects with normal bowhunters, not the pro type. JD's video said everything we need to know about him.
I like Troy! And I think he’s right about many things. I shot 615g for a season and killed many things at long distance. I’ve just realized his worst case scenario and mine are different
@brandonmcdonald6121 I don't want to sound like an A-hole, but you're wrong. Hitting bone and wounding an animal condemning him to a slow, painful death is horrible for the community of bowhunters. Just a few months ago, here in Central Florida, the local news ran a piece about deer that were shot in urban areas with bolts and arrows hanging out of them. That makes the public not very supportive of hunting in general. That's not remotely close to missing an animal.
This is the podcast I’ve wanted. Also appreciate Dudly podcast being addressed because I wanted to know how you guys felt about it.
Mannnnn I made it to 16:00 and couldn’t go any further, Brandon, thanks for the video big dog. Josh is a freaking compound genius. And after 16:00 dude is a class act and so far beyond the rest in terms of technical knowledge, explanation and testing. A privilege to have his information on the tube, FO FREE.
Very good video. I really enjoyed the conversation. Very informative. It makes me want to have Josh set up my bow. There’s a lot more common ground here than what people realize.
I have been privileged to have hunted Texas twice for hogs. My partners for those trips were some industry pros you've maybe heard of: Joe Jacks of Tightspot Quivers, Mike Ellig of Black Gold Sights, Don Dvorsnak of Ripcord, Wayne Endicott of The Bow Rack, Scott Turner from Turner's Outdoors, and many other well respected shop owners from around the country.
I had the opportunity to sneak in on a 150# hog on a sendero one morning. I ranged the pig at 54 yards and dialed my Black Gold sight in, drew my Bowtech RPM360 (322fps arrow speed) and released the 378gr Gold Tip Velocity with a 2blade expandable Dead Ringer. My companion that morning, Scott, was looking at the hog through his binos and exclaimed. "You missed him!" as the pig lurched and ran off the road.
From my angle the arrow pinwheeled. I scrunched my eyebrows, and asked him to walk up and stand where the hog was so I could range him. I knew the arrow blew through the hog so fast that he could be validated in thinking I'd missed. When he got to the spot, he paused and hollered back, "you got him!" as was evidenced by the blood on the road where it stood and the trail 10 yards to the carcass. My takeaway of that was, my arrow setup was perfect for the scenario I was hunting, for the animal I was hunting. My bow was well tuned, even though I'd replaced the strings just two days prior.
I'll say this: placement, placement, placement. Build an arrow for the animal you're hunting, with consideration for the terrain and most common scenarios you'll find yourself in. There is a law of diminishing returns in everything you build... find the one you can shoot the BEST and shoot it well.
Couldn’t have said it better myself. I shoot a more moderate setup. 480 grain arrow around 280-290 fps, but the point of placement and diminishing returns is where the focus needs to be.
Troy hit it on the head with the working family guy , that is why his method is so popular , the guy who doesn’t have all the time in the world for this stuff. His dedication to bring actual proof to his theory’s are what sets him apart in my mind. I also watch the majority of mfjj’s videos as well his bow knowledge and what it takes to be accurate are second to none. Would love to have a shop and range like his on the east coast over here in Virginia. Great video!!
Thank you Brandon for getting you guys together for this podcast. I felt like there was a lot of information that was very helpful and more towards common ground between MFJJ and Troy. I've went down the rabbit hole, tinkered with my arrow set up thanks to MFJJ troy and Dan. Going to start another set up this spring going lighter but still having a fixed blade up front. Also you all should go to each other's places to do some hunting/shananagaings. Keep up the great work.
I think San Antonio Tac there’s a chance we all end up together down there
Great discussion guys! Lucas Palmer (engineer by trade) put out a video series comparing the kinetic energy and momentum down range with heavy and light arrows. He also discussed the importance of good arrow flight and shot placement. The heavy arrow did retain a greater percentage of kinetic energy and momentum at distance but a greater determination of penetration was broadhead type and sharpness and good arrow flight. In all fairness to John Dudley, he has helped many an archer learn how to work on their equipment and has great training tips. Big tall guys with 30 plus inch draw lengths have a much larger range of arrow builds, whether heavy or light, that will perform great on animals. Being on older archer with a 27 inch draw length and shooting 60 pounds I listen more intently when John talks about his son's or his wife's set up.
This was awesome! I think this podcast helped so many people. I know it helped me. I’m buying a whole new set up this year and there was so much info in this podcast I’m gonna think about when deciding what I’m gonna shoot.
This was awesome! I absolutely enjoyed the respectful debate. I have definitely learned a lot from Josh, Troy, and Brandon! You guys all need to go do a hunt together or at least make this a 4 part series.
Totally dig this... Awesome vid, thanks fellas! Great info... I've learned a lot from MFJJ on bow tuning, etc. A great tuned bow makes things so much more fun... Thanks guys1
Thanks for setting up the interview Brandon , I watch all three of you guys on utube , I like and respect all three of you, I also went to a heavier arrrow system them backed off a bit because of mfjj. Also thanks for bringing up the Dudley interview , I totally agree with you the way he treated Troy , I lost alot of respect for him that day. I was wondering why you didn’t bring up Tim when you finished but understand you don’t want to help him get to 100k first! lol 😂
I love this and both are saying the same thing love it.
First make sure your bow is square next your brace is proper tune the arrow fine tune with the bow keep consistent form.
Go as heavy as you can with a trajectory you are happy with single bevel cut on contact work the best.
Use what you want have fun.
I agree that 15 minutes at the end would have been great at the beginning! Also thanks for calling out Dudley acting like a D bag in his interview with him. Awesome conversation! Do more of this!
I think this is a great discussion and illustrates how there's not always one right answer. I can see merits to both approaches. Over the years, I find myself gravitating (no pun intended) towards heavier arrows. Why? A) I've had random bumps or whatnot alter something on my rig between the test shot I take before leaving that same day and my shot on a deer, causing my point of impact to be off from where I was aiming. B) Sometimes an animal jumps or moves suddenly, not because they are jumping the string, but because some reaction to something else as I was just about to release. When that happens about or just before my drop, they're effectively able to cause poor shot placement faster than the math of jumping the string would imply. 3) Heavier arrows are further from dry fire, and likely promote longevity in compound bow and crossbow limbs, while also absorbing more energy overall (that is how the actual increase in momentum happens, so P2V2 is actually more than the lighter P1V1 though they are still close overall), while simultaneously providing a quieter shot. But all that aside, it's fascinating to see someone like Ryan Gill of Hunt Primitive go out and take anything from rabbits to buffaloes, with a totally homemade bow and arrow, shooting about five hundred fifty grains at a hundred fifty five feet per second. He still follows many of the principles of the Ashby foundation where possible of course...oh, and the fire hardened Hickory self bows per the fellows at Beckum Outdoors (one of the guy's channel's name) are proving to be as good as top grade industrial recurves. Go figure! Anyhow, hats off to these champions here who I have learned much from, thank you!
This was a great Interview I really enjoyed this and I think it did a better job capturing what all three of you bring to the sport and finding what works for you. Great work guys.
Thanks for watching!
Brandon, have you ever shot your arrow , paper tune at 2 ft and tuned your bow completely at 7 yards? @@brandonmcdonald6121
I remember when Troy was just starting the channel, I figured he would blow up. Little surprised he could be so successful with one main message and make so many videos. I have killed so much really big stuff with mechanicals and modest arrows that I tend to agree with more with the MFJJ approach. That said probably real value in the middle of these two approaches.
I disagree with being in the middle as far as arrow weight goes. Looking at performance efficiency percentages, the absolute worst thing you can do is be in the middle. You are better off going light and fast or going to the other end of the spectrum and going heavy and slow. Your performance gains with picking a middle of the road arrow weight are negligible.
@@michaelvstheworld3680 yes, heavy and slow not only saves your limbs but much more efficient with your bow!
@paulheberling2750 yes and no. Do not misunderstand what I am saying.
@@michaelvstheworld3680 seems to be a pretty common link that most good hunters don’t care what there foc is as long as there getting around 280 to 300fp if your like cam and can pull 90p your going to be throwing a heavier arrow due to spine if nothing else
@@paulheberling2750that depends entirely on the profile of the cam. You can hit depreciating returns well into being in the middle before you get “heavy”
Well, this upload should help your subscriber count. Thank you Brandon for the podcast. I'm looking forward to listening
This was AWESOME! PLEASE DO MORE ... 😎🏹🦌🐗 Good Hunting to All ... 😉👍
I wish I could get 10 to 12 hunting days a year, 4 kids, and they even like to go with me. And that's why Troy resonates with so many people, and so do you Josh, Dudley I think wants to help everyone as well but yeah he doesn't realize most of us can't shoot every day I try to go once a week, again my kids like it too so that helps but not everyone has even that. Thank you gentlemen for this conversation! God bless!
I'm excited to build a heavy arrow for next season. I hunt whitetail up close in thick woods. Ranch fairly is really nice, mfjj great bow tech, awesome video. Thanks everyone, and also the host
Thanks Brandon for putting these two together. Would be better all in the same room but, ill take what you can give! I watch both these guys and understand where they are both coming from. I run a very sharp broadhead that wont bend, but also a lighter arrow. My FOC is 16% on my current arrow and shoots great to 70yrds. Before I started dialing in on the arrow, I made the bow the best I could then focused on the arrow. I had to do less to the arrow doing it that way. I run a Bowtech Solution 65lbs, 27.5. and a 425 grain arrow with Magnus Buzzcuts 125s. Im an east coast hunter.
Yeah, I respect all three of these guys and they all want the same thing. This conversation is a great place for people to learn.
I’m a fan of all the above. I’ve met Dudley at Tac. He was cool an humble as can be. Spent all day on the range an afterwards hanging out with people. That being said he did come off as being somewhat of an Ahole. Dudley an Troy have different Philosophy’s an different consumer base. Dudley imo is more toward the serious/archery nerd, while Troy is more the regular Joe. I think Dudley was coming from more of a precise/precision standpoint an Troy’s like I just want to kill stuff lol. Honestly I feel like a lot of guys don’t practice enough/ don’t make sure their equipment is 100 before hunting. To me arrow placement is the key. But to each their own.
Brandon, I am glad you mentioned the condescending interview with Dudley. He obviously had his own agenda and was totally disrespectful to Fairy’s point of view. This was a more informative interview. Keep up the good work. Love your videos.
Awesome discussion. I learned so much in this video.
I think I've learned more about archery on this conversation that 100 hours watching other videos, mfjj, Dudley, and Troy included. That conversation with Troy being a new Archer was so helpful, could be a good video to watch Josh set up a new/newish guy in his shop. Would be awesome!
GREAT! Thank you! For getting those together! The interview with John nock was horrible and he lost me totally….with his disrespect! This vlog is what we need! Thank you!
Fantastic conversation. It's great to see two people come together to discuss fun things in an open manner. One thing I think turned a lot of people against Troy a few years back was the whole bending the bow thing and you can just do the arrow. I cringed when I heard that and I think most bow techs and archers did. You've got to start with a perfect tune then move to the arrow. Glad to hear that clarification. The "ideal" setup is one that can shoot multiple spines and point weights as mentioned.
I agree with both on a multitude of things. I absolutely prefer Troy's aiming point into the vital V. MFJJ's aiming point didn't strike me as logical unless the animal doesn't move - but then he said animal movement is number 1.. Let's dive in - if animal movement is the driving factor then we know the direction of movement is down, steps forward or turning/rolling away. In all instances - Troy's aiming point is still valid as if the animal steps forward - it hit where MFJJ was aiming in the first place. If the animal rolls and turns away it will lead to effective shot further back - Troy's aim point wins. Now to the vertical: the height of the vitals varies as it goes back on the deer as the lungs are at a slight diagonal - Troy's aim point wins as it has the most vertical forgiveness. MFJJ if the animal doesn't drop enough he could be diaphragm, liver, stomach. Personally - I've had issues with this and it's a top consideration for me. Even aiming vital V - my animal losses are 100% attributed to a slightly too far back but low shot. If I hit higher - I probably would have clipped more vitals. But the animal didn't drop and walking shots and target panic on animals yields to what I believe is a tendency to gravitate towards center of mass on an animal and squeeze one off (but maybe that's just me).
One point to Troy in my book. Now to the next items - A few thing I'd like to see Troy be more open minded to. I'll continue in my next comment on this post.
I think Troy is understandable where he comes from and he's dealing with the data coming into him. He gets people who have had penetration problems and they want a solution so it doesn't happen again. He solved the equation for the data provided. The problem is it's a skewed data set and it gives a false impression of the lethality problem.
Consider this: There's 3.5 million or so bow hunters in the US alone. Just for an example let's say 5% of those hunters have had penetration issues - That's 175,000 hunters and is not insignificant. Let's say one in 100 of those people it was enough of a concern that they reach out to RF and ask for advice. That's 1,750 emails or comments to Troy that is responding to. People aren't designed to take this much confirmation bias in - we can take some but not at this scale. Now, I don't know if that's accurate as I'm obviously not in his inbox but he gets a lot of views. Probably half of which are from guys like me who just like to nerd out and pick things that make sense to improve our build even though we haven't had penetration issues.
That's whole, whole lot of confirmation bias that Troy is getting. Every influencer is facing the same type of problem. We're not designed to take in this much data. Personally, I'm not sold that Troy is handling this well as there are items that he just won't concede to be true that are provably true. In this video that example was flight time to target. Troy put out several videos on this issue and made assertions that he believes to be true and stated that the math doesn't work. The problem is - it does work.
We can use Ranch Fairy's data from his velocity erosion video to do an example. At 30 yards it will take a 436 grain arrow (281 fps launch, 273 fps avg to 30 yds) around 330 milliseconds. A 718 grain out of the same setup will take around 410 milliseconds. This means that the arrow will arrive 25% later than the faster arrow. Now this is only the time for the arrow to get there, we need to deduct the amount of time it take for the first sound of the bow to get there (1125.33 FPS) - which is .08 seconds. And the reaction time of say .08 as well (2x faster than a male sprinter). Taking this into account the animal (if it choses to) has MINIMUM 50% more time to react to the 718 grain arrow at ONLY 30 yards. This is not irrelevant!! Especially because gravity accelerates and animal with time. If you think that an animal won't react more given 50% more time you're on more crack than these whitetail are.
Yes, an animals movement is unpredictable. What we do know is that we want to minimize this unpredictability. Think of it this way - in the additional time it takes for the 718 grain arrow to get to the target the 436 grain arrow will have traveled 37 yards. Can an animal react more if you take a shot at further distance? Yes. If you take this argument presented in this video then you have the believe that a 30 yd shot is no more ethical than 37 shorter shot as it relates to animal movement. Which is not true.
The best case for minimizing movement using a heavy arrow is that brings down bow noise & arrow noise. Drag is proportional to velocity squared and a faster arrow will be louder in flight because of that. It will make that noise slightly longer though. A heavier arrow will bring down the noise of your bow over a really light arrow, but not that much over a moderate weight arrow. This needs tested and is extremely difficult to do repeat - I think this answer will be one of the last given if we ever get it. Probably will be debated for a long, long time.
Next point - Troy has solved the equation that his hunting conditions/target species and it works fantastic for him so that further confirms his recommendations for arrows. Every time it works it confirms his solution. The problem is this still he's solving for his equation and it has different weighting. I'm good at bad metaphors so I'll try one. In the construction world we are trying the first item to increase safety is engineering controls - meaning that the design of the workspace and other factors will allow for safer installation. I've done big jobs where this wasn't taken into consideration or the design could only allow get the task "so" safe. Unacceptable but you've got to work in that constraint to statistically minimize the concerns. At Troy's Ranch situation he's got control over the design. He can use his setups to eliminate as many variables as possible. Get the feeder just right, known distance, hunt this one on this wind, set your seat up so your not torqueing for your anticipated shot location, etc.
For me - and large swath of the public land or western community - I can't do most of that. I can't trim branches, I don't have enough cash to pay for a lease or have multiple stands locations, I'm usually scouting and identifying my hunt location based on features/conditions and it varies hunt to hunt. Or I'm western hunting and run and gun. These variables are being inputted into our equations and affect our hunting situations. Which is why our end result is different.
Its crazy how far bows have come. I started bow hunting in 2006 or 2007 using my dad's 1994 Alpine Whisperflite. That thing was like a 40-41ATA bow and shot so slow, the deer had 3-5 business weeks to move. When I went to a 30" Martin Cheetah in 2012, it was a game changer, and last year, I got the SS34, which is awesome.
You 3 are awesome. This was cool. Brandon you were a great mediator and MFJJ is wealth of knowledge. Troy is also awesome. We all can learn things from MFJJ.
Nicely done guys and it seemed like an honest conversation. I am a western elk hunter and feel that shooting a Troy arrow set up (thanks Troy) with an MFJJ tuned bow is probably the perfect setup for hunting success. Since adopting the Ashby Study on arrow lethality, Troy's study on shot placement and bows tuned to MFJJ specs my harvest rate has increased. I did learn from MFJJ (thanks Josh) that I need to check my cams at full draw and maybe focus on adjusting my hand position a little more. I agree John Dudley was a jerk and the EZ-V sight is a meat axe.
At around 1 hour, Brandon says your not going to get Troy to agree with that, as far as shooting a lighter arrow beyond 40 yards, then the subject once again gets changed, Troy talking about shooting a 400 against a 600 grain arrow at 60 yards or whatever, Josh was about to say the arrow drop is a very important consideration between those 2 arrows but Troy just kept forging ahead and Josh never got to make the point, same thing happened with shot placement and hitting bone vs guts. I have great respect for Troy, Josh, Brandon and yes, Dudley. The problem as I see it is that Troy for the most part refuses to compromise 99.9% of the time, Josh was very respectful and because of that was ever, ever so subtly bulldozed, just my opinion. Troy would make a very, very good prosecutor, and again, I love all 4 of the guys mentioned above and I am subscribed to all of them. I also listened to the John Dudley podcast and I to was very uncomfortable listening to it, but I think Brandon mistakes condescending with frustrated on John’s part and yes maybe he lost his cool a bit but as I saw it, again in a very subtle and irritating way Troy did not show much respect for his opinions and the same went for Josh in this podcast in my humble opinion! That being said I’ll probably be asking for Troy’s advice in the future over some thingamajiger and if he does read this comment and recognize my call name I know he’ll let it roll off like water off a ducks back and do everything he can to help me! Hope I didn’t offend to many people with this comment! 😂 God Bless!
It's not that Troy didn't care about sitting past 40 yards. It's because Troy knows the "Majority" of bowhunters don't shoot past 25-30 yards.
I'd like to jump in here. I asked these guys to help me work on my knowledge of bow tuning and answer some questions I get from people who ask me questions so I can help them. This discussion was not about the arrow. It was my request for these guys to spend their time with me, thus a civilized person stays on the rails of the conversation.
@RanchFairy I think this was a great discussion Troy. Unlike some others I have watched and the intentions of other people you have had conversations with are different from what these guys intentions appear to be. I believe there is somewhat of a disconnect with the western hunter and eastern hunters and these types of conversations help those two groups of people come together and help understand 2 totally different types of hunting styles
@@jeremymeyer891 I'm still noodling the western vs eastern thing.
Here's what I can't get past. Western animals are larger.
Mule deer / Elk / Bears.
Why are we giving up Arrow mass to shoot further, which reduces impact energy at the target? I've studied the momentum of different arrow mass - at 60 yards.
A 550 grain arrow has more momentum than a 388 grain arrow at launch....(not at 60 yards, ).
550 isn't that heavy and very practical for 80 yards.
As noted, I am noodling this but it's something I can't get past. Currently building arrows to shoot 100 yards at TAC and will report back.
@RanchFairy I totally agree 100%, I think the only animal I would switch to a lighter setup would be pronghorn. I have hunted other western game and they just do not react the same as whitetail and they are bigger so I don't fully understand the whole Pin Gap thing. We don't shooting paper or foam at 100 yards, we are trying to put 2 holes in a deer at 30-35 yards.. that is our most common customer which I feel is the majority of the bowhunting community. The Gemini 250 is quickly becoming our most popular arrow. 550 with awesome FOC and it flies like a dart and very hard hitting. Different strokes for different folks.
I hunt a little similar to Troy. And don't shoot over 25 yards. So I keep my bow simple and shoot heavier arrows
Love how you guys are pretty open to different setups but having knowledge of setups for different application. I've shot really light setup380-400 gen 10%foc and took marginal shots with no success on white tail. But I have taken same shots with 440-470 grn with 18% fox and fixed head and recover them.
The shot I'm referring to is 200lb plus white tail straight under ya through the back and poked out sternum. My go to set up for pretty much North America game is the 440-470 grn 18% foc and I'm 28.5 draw 68-72lbs usually depends on bow and normally I'm around 270-285 fps range
The speed issue is where they diverge but I think the visor guy factored that in to his testing as he says he analyzed deer movement after loose. He seemed to convey that because the reactions vary, no matter the speed of the arrow, and the fact even speed bows can miss, it’s a factor he does not feel he needs to solve for. Instead, he would rather have an arrow that will penetrate no matter what, including if it hits the bone. I think I’ll go that way. I shoot mule deer and elk so maybe speed matters less to me
Moral of the story: ride the middle. With all of the scientific and anecdotal information available on this topic it keeps directing me towards shooting a well tuned bow, a quiet, relatively fast arrow, with a super sharp broadhead. Shooting 340 grains is just as dumb as shooting 750 grains. Reasonableness is the answer unless you hunt in a highly specific microcosm of conditions that require specificity for success.
Moral of the story: heavy, heavy, heavy, heavy as can be.
I really like the moto of shooting as heavy of an arrow as you can while still reaching at least 270- 280 fps. Best of all worlds
@@lukeonderko8696 is take it down another 100 but stay in under 30
@@paulheberling2750 270-280 is still 0.6-08 slugs of momentum weapon of archery depending and that will go through any bone.
Ashby with his 115 lb long bow 600 grain arrow was only 0.9- 1 slug of momentum.
270-280 is quite perfect get it to fly straight and true. If you are using a lighter poundage bow you may want a little more weight but of course naturally you would also be closer because this would be trad or primitive archery now.
@@chrisruzsa2798 momentum is the least of my worries. Having a good trajectory that is forgiving so that you can hit what your aiming at is more important to me being a spot and stalk hunter
Watching at work... Preciatte.. 2 boys another on the way... I get out to hunt a handful of times a year... I'm an accountant by trade. Love ranch fairy and the conversation he started
Great video. The elephant in the room that needs addressed is the lack of discipline within the bow hunting community. It should be our #1 concern
Just broke open a bottle of Blantons and watched this great conversation. Yes, MFJJ is right about the bow being tuned. I think Troy has guys thinking about the Ashbey rules, and heavier arrows to penetrate animals when they move. I think speed is important too. There has to be a happy medium between a well tuned bow, a solid arrow platform, and it's up to me to figure it out. Thanks guys for all you do to help the average joe bow hunter.
Blanton’s! Now we talkin
I also think that D. Ed spoke of "spare no expense" to get perfect arrow flight. I believe that also includes having you bow right.
With a modern compound and your bow is tuned correctly, cam timing, in spec, center shot, grip placement, that bow will shoot a multitude of arrows , weights & spines and shoot bullet holes. Changing the arrows that significantly is trying to fix other issues with the setup. Changing the arrow setup that much to get the bow to shoot good is how you tune a traditional bow. When you can’t control center shot… I tune my recurves by shooting bullet holes. Cutting a half inch off of a shaft can change a left tear to a bullet hole with traditional equipment. Small changes make a huge difference. It is not like that with a compound if the bow is setup correctly from the start.
I assume you did not mean to respond to me!? I never once said anything about arrow weights. Or what I believe is the ideal hunting arrow weight. You said a lot of things that I never even mentioned. All I was talking about was tuning the arrow to the bow vs the bow to the arrow. I never once said a single thing about “arrow weight” lol
I have such a wide range of point weights that shoot clean with a bare shaft that I almost stopped caring. Didn't change from 250 spine with 100-200 grains, nor with 200 spine 100-200 grains.
Okay, I have followed Troy since day one. I had already been bow hunting for many years before I found him. I never once thought his message was to shoot 800 grain arrows and all else be dammed. That is a gross mischaracterization of the guy. His message to me has always been make sure your shit is shooting straight, use a good broadhead, make sure it is sharp, stiffen your arrow, and get your FOC up. I dumped my light arrow and went up to 455 grains with 15% FOC. My performance on game went through the roof. I learned to tune from watching Dudley. This all made the video with the two very painful. Lastly, if you have shot as many big pigs as Troy you would understand where he is coming from better. I have and you ain't getting through them and killing them consistently with a 300-400 grain arrows and mechanical broadheads. An elk doesn't have shit on a 350# real wild boar. You also can't argue with Ashby on what happens when an arrow contacts a game animal. He has the data. Milk jugs, foam, and plastic squares are not meat and bones. The argument lies in where the happy medium occurs. People need to chill out and be friends about it. All this is supposed to be fun.
@ 40yrds the flight time between a 485g arrow and a 560g arrow with 60# 28.5DL is .05secs (.48secs vs .52secs) The deer is moving but not that fast. How many guys walk into a pro shop and to save their egos blame the deer's speed vs their shot? The same argument that is used to say don't hit the bones can be applied to don't shoot over their backs; become a better archer. Deers move yep, hunters miss too.
Completely agree, of all the hunters that claim "time to target" as the reason they missed are full of shit. Taking bad shots at alert game and missing by 6" doesn't sound as good as the deer moved...
If they missed because they weren’t fast enough then if they were faster they would’ve still missed vitals and wounded the thing
This was epic, I been hoping for ranch fairy and mfjj to talk, The next step is for MFJJ to do a hunt video with Ranch Fairy and use a 650grain setup and for Ranch Fairy to be forced to use a light setup, Say 420 grains. It would be great to see them shoot opposite setups and see how they work out in real life, better yet, they should be forced to use that setup for a full season and show their results, it could be a really cool series.
When Troy brought up the arrows destabilizing after 50 I was reminded of sportsman's arrows that have straight fletch that would sometime have 1 fletch slightly left or right offset from the other 2. Those things were really good up to 58 1/2 yards.
Thank you for this! I am subscribed to all 3 : Ranch fairy, snort the dust. Love it. MFJJ, just because of the passion, with all the benefits. Thanks a million, Brandon. Fine job, and enjoy all your content. Thanks Guys.
when an arrow is fighting to correct its self it is consuming energy, when you over rotate an arrow " heavy helical" loud and noisey your using up energy
Thank you MFJJ for being super respectful to Troy. True professional
With that Dudley podcast just look at the comments in that video. Dudley didn't get a good response from people
RF was totally right with his take on the Dudley pod. And that’s the treatment normal guys get at bow shops. A guy who sits behind a counter selling archery stuff for a living will look at you and say here’s your bow this is what you need. I shoot a 29” draw and stand at 5’7”. Most bow shops will scold me and switch it to 26”. I had to search for a shop that would tune the bow to me not to what their chart says. Starting shooting bowtech and buying arrows separate so I could change the setup at home until I found a shop that listens to the customer
I don't touch the local shop anymore. Similar reasons. I'm 5'10" and shoot just over 30". The dude also told my trad buddy at 45# to shoot a mechanical. I don't know how he's still in business.
@@YoureSoVane I looked really hard to find one, a group of guys who tinkered in the garage because of the reasons we mentioned so much they started a shop.
@@MichiganPublic I do it myself now. Everything but making the strings.
@@YoureSoVane I was on the same level until I started going the f.o.c. Route. Cams needed shimmed and didn’t have the equipment. Was about to buy it all before I found them. Gave them 20 questions before making the drive
Animals, when they spook, generally don't move backward. So by aiming forward your maximizing your target size.
Same reason why people aim low.
And if you tell someone to aim low people will generally agree, but if you tell them to aim forward they'll all freak out.
Really enjoyed this I think anyone with a strong opinion should have what they say challenged it’s a good way to see if the fully understanding what they are putting out there or not. In a debate if you can put forward good counter points and explanations to arguments your theory holds weight. I think troys info is only relevant to people that don’t want to put to much time into archery and are shooting out of a blind or tree at a known distance at 30 yards. There is a reason every exceptionally good bow hunter sits in the middle ground with arrow weight
I agree with everything said but fairy is right about the vital V yes it puts you closer to bone but shooting forward lower 1/3 has made a massive difference on the animals I've harvested. The good old double lung works but the top of that heart just puts them down so much faster and gives more room for error. You hit back you get lungs you hit forward, and smash threw shoulder/bone and get arteries/windpipe.
They keep saying the worst case scenario is guts and yes that’s the worse case for HUNTING but an arrows worst case scenario is bone. They keep missing that point
@@jimmytillman206it's not a worst case scenario to hit bone if you have a system that can handle bone.
The arrow noise talk I feel is accurate. Loud arrows cause reaction more than bow. I used gopro to record my arrows from point of target and you can barely hear my apa bow over the arrow coming in with 2" vanes. Switched to quite vanes and it's a massive difference.
I think they see the bow go off and see the arrow. The speed of light is so much faster than sound, and gives more reaction time.
Great video guy's, but all comes down to options and options!!! Good Stuff Guy's 👌👌👌 FYI, I hunt with a trx 38 & Hoyt Highline!!!
Thanks guys, MFJJ, yes, I am probably a great example of someone you are trying to help, 2 kids, not much time or money left, but love to learn more about tuning my trx38!! I tried 1 paper tune shot, was not sure what I was looking at! Seems like my rest is too far over right, but is shoots my 27's pretty straight out to 45yrds
Love my Zebra strings, peep is good.
Both of you are right. The arrow is flying from the moment it is released. One of you is talking about the flight behind the riser, the other out front of the riser. In the end ANY flight that is outside of a straight line to the target results in energy loss.
I've taken bits of info from both these guys. I built my arrows for elk and did all my homework. Never hunted elk before and went out solo and shot a giant bull, quartering and had a full pass through. That elk went 80yds tops and was dead in less than 5 min. A well tuned bow and smartly built arrows were the key to my success for sure. I practiced a ton so I new where my arrow was going.
I don’t often comment but feel the need to here.. Please continue to chase knowledge….. humbly.
I believe it was a great video, where three people were honestly willing to learn and teach at the same time. There was no dick measuring, and I felt like there was also no concern about what the audience thought about anybody individually, but that everybody was interested in learning more.
Some of the best video content I’ve watched in a while. I believe it truly helped people shoot their bow better. And also think more clearly about the equipment they use and what they’re actually wanting to do with that equipment. Instead of just pushing the latest greatest most expensive thing that is out there.
Great content video however the audio was poor. No doubt MFJJ is the wizard of archery knowledge and tuning and truly wants to help the average person in understanding their archery equipment. Been watching Troy for awhile and like what he and Dr. Ashby have to say but not sure I buy into a heavy arrow for deer and elk, Cape buffalo or Kudu yes. Main takeaway is whatever broadhead you use make sure it is scalpel sharp. Just because it’s in a package doesn’t mean it’s sharp. Brandon, this is my first time seeing you but you seem very interesting and knowledgeable and I have subscribed. At some point I will make the 4 hour drive to come checkout Nashville North Archery. Keep up the content!!!
It was bad…. Agee. We are working on it!
I'm 5'11" and always preferred a 33" - 35" bow for hunting and 3D. Height has little to due with it IMHO.
Would love to hear a discussion with Josh regarding tuning a "hybrid bow", where different arrow types for target, 3D, hunting may be in play. Tune for each per season, or is there a generic tuning profile one can use?
When you shoot an animal with a gun do you shoot tight to the shoulder or back? Y do you change your aiming point when you have a bow in your hand?
I’ve messed with light, heavy and mid weight setups with compound and I think it just depends on how you hunt and setup. I hunt from the ground in thick brush. So all shots are close and at weird angles. If your furthest clear shot is 30 yards there’s not an appreciable difference in drop of deer between a 300gr and 700gr arrow. So for me I would rather have as heavy of arrow as possible so that shot selection isn’t as limited. I’ve been almost purely selfbowd the last several years and there’s not a noticeable speed difference in speeds of different arrow weights so might as well shoot heavy as what flies cleanly
Everyone seems to forget that The Ranch Fairy says, "The bow must be right." Meaning that the bow must be tuned before starting his process.
I’ve followed everyone in this video and Dudley from the beginning . I think in the beginning Troy would try to change the point weight to manipulate how the arrow bends for a perfect bullet hole. In reality a well tuned bow will bullet hole with a wide range points and spine. I’d argue that is not the correct way. Even if he says the bow must be right. He said in this podcast that people send him pics with all the arrows shooting bullet holes with the kit. So my point is he might’ve said the bow must be right but he wasn’t following or understanding that in the beginning of his channel.
@@F22Ra Youre right. But I am continually learning from people who know more about bows than I do. Thus this video. I learned a ton.
@RanchFairy exactly Troy. It's about learning sir.
What I think alot of what people forget is that when Troy admits up front what he doesn't know, he isn't saying hey, don't worry about it because I don't know. He is saying, don't look to me for this. He isn't saying Bow tuning isnt important. Never has.
@@callenscreations574
Someone paying attention! I learned a ton on this live! That was my goal.
I commend two of you on this video for not just letting loose on one of the other guys on this video. I couldn’t…
I agree with the shot placement your saying Brandon..I have hunted for idk almost 30 years and I have never seen a deer drop and go backwards lol..they always drop and go forward so there for guts more likely for sure
Given that, why wouldn't you aim forward?
@@josephr1198 for me why try to hit a baseball when I can hit a basketball... and one point no ones talks about is tracking , which sould be a big part of woodsman ship so I don't cair how far it runs...people tend to sucked in to one or to topics and not the over all picture
@chrismacomber9727 you're intentionally aiming for a smaller target when you aim back given that animals move forward.
You're going the opposite of what you think your doing.
@josephr1198 lol last I checked the lungs are bigger than the hart ..but the point I was making was I think a bigger cut is better because your more likely to hit guts than bone..and idc about the should I blow right through with a 1.75 cut.. I just think that the to bones in the leg is what %2 of the body but the hart lungs and liver and guts are what %50 so what you think your most likely to hit ?? The %2 or the %50..
@chrismacomber9727 let me phrase this another way since you appear to be having issues visualizing my point.
Do you aim above the midline on a deer? No of course you wouldn't because the deer drops, you aim below, that way if it doesn't move you still hit, and if it does drop you still hit because you gave yourself room for that.
So if animals also tend to move forward, why would you eliminate the front half of your target by aiming at or behind the crease?
You are deliberately chosing a smaller target by doing this.
If I'm aiming at the heart and the deer moves forward, I hit lungs.
If you're aiming behind the crease and the deer moves forward, you're hitting guts.
Great information. I believe a huge part of this is the fact that people tend to focus on one thing and glaze over the other. This maybe outta pocket a bit but as for J Dudley I believe he is in touch with his customers mainly because he doesn’t have an actual open to the public store. So if you come across his info and start down that path you can decide for yourself if his Kool-aide is for you. Just like MFJJ or Ranch Fairy. It’s a few different ways to fry chicken 🍗 Crestco, Air Fry, or good ole fashioned oil I can make them all “Finger-licking “ good JMHO though
I myself witnessed the difference it makes in shooting a super sharp broadhead vs a half dull one this last season
I enjoyed this
If people will enjoy this and not get upset and not have to be right and learn this is great for bow hunting
Can a bow that is not tuned, tune an arrow?
Sort of, yes. It depends how far out the bow is.
I completely dumped JD after TF interview. It was completely disrespectful. "you group tune at 90 meters bro?" LOL
You and me both. The way he treated TF was unacceptable.
He looked foolish
100 percent agree. Sucks because I really like Flo-green but am always reminded of him when I see that color now hahahaha.
This makes sense to me, Troy has never said you don’t have to start straight! Troy was always focused on foc, 550-700 grain weight , sharp broad heads , and always said it’s all good if everything goes right with lower grain
Troy like him but a bit hung up on pigs :) and that’s cool.
Great conversation!
It was enjoyable
I know this is old but I can't help myself, just to throw this out there about his helicopter analogy. The most tuned in deer I have ever hunted was on a small farm in the middle of town next to an actual helicopter field. Most hunts have constant choppers over head and its under a flight pattern for passenger jets. Its never quit, and those are the hardest deer I have hunted. The neighbors wouldn't even know they were there if their rose bushes weren't getting mowed down at night by the 20 or so deer that frequent the 20 acre woodlot.
Good ole’ RF just keeping to his same old narrative. He says that he doesn’t care and goes on to talk about all the other things that are more important to him in life than this archery thing. Yet he’s still using his name to sell product and still causing division in the archery community.
RF claims that Dudley is the one that doesn’t know the audience, but that couldn’t be farther from the truth. Dudley was a broke kid sleeping in his truck chasing his dream. A dream that came true from a ton of hard work. He may rub some people the wrong way, but he’s not wrong, RF is.
Here’s why RF is wrong about him and Dudley having different audiences. Wait for it…. the fundamentals of archery are all the same…. It doesn’t matter if you shoot a couple times a year, a couple times a month or a couple times a day. THE FUNDAMENTALS ARE EXACTLY THE SAME! There is no cheat code but RF keep convincing people that there is.
Let’s start with the bow tuning part. RF says in the his videos that you have to start with a tuned bow. Yet doesn’t know how to tune a bow or whether or not his bow is actually in tune. Then goes on to sell a test kit to help people get a bullet hole through paper and better arrow flight. But this product isn’t needed on a tuned bow and doesn’t in any way even tune the bow. It’s sold and a cheaper and easier tool for the “average joe”. But we already know that the fundamental for a average joe and professional are exactly the same. So lets look at the time and the cost. I know my local shop may not be the same as all shops across the county. But my shop offers free bow tuning in the slow months in the winter no matter where you bought the bow. During the season they will charge a customer to tune a bow that wasn’t bought from their shop. But the shop rate is only $60 an hour and will charge in half hour increments. The last bow I bought of marketplace cost me 30 minutes of time and the shop and whooping 30 bucks to walk out with perfectly tunes bow shooting bullet holes in paper and perfect down ranch flight (and it was definitely not tuned when I walked into the shop). There is no way a RF test kit is going to be cheaper and easier than this.
Now lets look at the shooting form and technique side of things. Again RF claims that he’s not a good shot and goes on to sell products with the notion that they are again a cheat code. If you buy the cheat code, you don’t have to have good form and technique or be a good shot. You just gotta hit the animal anywhere and the cheat code arrow will do the rest. This is again sold as a cheat code for the average joe who’s never going to be as good of a shot as Dudley. But again we all know that the fundamentals are exactly same for an average joe and a professional. The average joe should be watching Dudley’s video and learning to shoot better instead of watching RF and learning that they can kill it no matter where you hit so no need to do it right… Or go to a shop and pay for an instructor for an hour to teach you proper shooting form and technique. Because again this is actually cheaper and faster than buying a test kit and building a building heavy arrow.
So again Dudley audience IS the average joe. The pro’s don’t need to watch him. The person that doesn’t have a lot of time should be. Because following him will produce better results faster and for less money than buying into RF’s cheat code arrow propaganda. And if Dudley rubs you the wrong way there are other people putting out videos that teach tuning, form and technique. A few that come to mind are Podium Archer, Joel Turner for shot executions, and George Ryals for shooting form.
RF talks about the other activities that he excels at like fishing, shot gun shooting and golf. Does he try and sell those industry cheat cope products to get around the basic fundamentals? Is he making golf videos telling the average joe golfer that with a cheat code golf club you can get better result while ignoring the fundamentals? I bet he’s not and would get laughed out of the industry. Yet why is it different in the archery community. Why has an alarmingly large number of people in this community embraced a cheat code mentality that cost them more time and money than just starting with the basic fundamentals? This question is why Dudley and some of the other industry experts that actually know what they are doing and so frustrated with RF. Most are doing a good job of being professional and politically correct about it. I know Dudley came across as condescending. But image how golf pro’s would react to a average joe becoming an “industry expert” selling snake oil golf clubs. They would laugh at him and laugh at all the people buying into it.
The moral of the story is, if people would just put in the small amount of time and money that it takes to establish the basic fundamentals of archery, RF would be irrelevant. Get your bow in tune and arrows flying perfect. Always practice good form and technique when shooting (no matter how much or how little that is) and use a sharp broadhead. If people did this, they would have probably never had any desire to change their arrow weight because they would be getting great result like the industry experts have been saying for decades.
And before anyone thinks I’m some kind of RF hater, I’ve watched about every video he’s made in the last 4 years. I have drawers full of heavy components and expensive arrows I no longer shoot. “Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me”.
Amen. The fact that this guy is even relevant is a mockery of our sport. Most of us take a lot of pride in what it took to become bowmen and your exactly right when we see snake oil we are going to call it. I actually enjoyed watching Dudley nuke fairyland. Happy hunting
Troy always says to start with a bow that is tuned. Then work the arrow
This was a great conversation! Why could Dud not handle the conversation like this? Thos is actually "Finding Common Ground!"
I think he got bored, honestly
How about that one test you did between a 600 and 400 grain arrow at 70 yards and the impact difference was .1 second..
There is a curve momentum and peak ke in arrow weight. And you can't change the pe of a bow. We need to find a middle ground on all the arrow stuff.
This was great, the one I watched with John and Troy was awful, it was hard for me to watch. And what is sad is I love all of Johns videos but I look at him differently now, maybe that will pass. But MFJJ has sold me on a bow, I’ll be getting the Darton Consequence. Shoulder issues so I’m going to give it a try and 59 years old. 😂
My buddy always tells me to get that longer axle to axle bow with more brace height but he hunts open prairie and i hunt tree stands and ground blinds and WILL NOT shoot an animal past 30 yards because thats all i feel comfortable with so i prefer a shorter bow.. currently shoot a 32"
I could watch or listen to a 3 hr podcast with these 3.
Wish we could have sat down in Texas together. Maybe next time
Dudley might come across harsh but he knows his shit and there isn’t much arguing with it
No one likes a know it all prick.
The physics definitely says that kinetic energy would decrease on a bow that is out of time or has back cam lean. If it’s perfectly tuned we should see 100% of the potential energy in the bow transition to 100% KE in Z plane. If the the bow is out of tune there is a loss of energy to the target through the addition of KE in the x and y planes. The potential energy of the bow will always be the same if draw weight and length stay consistent
Heavy vs light energy aside I think the benefits of a lighter arrow for hunting at 30+ yards is the flatter trajectory as well, if you misjudge distance or if the animal moves more than u realize.
I’ve had 1 black tail buck duck an arrow at 30 yards, arrow speed 280. My fault at aiming for double lung, should have aimed at the heart. Next buck was a heart shot at 45 deer didn’t move.
Again, by the time that I 'heard' an arrow whizzing toward me at 220 MPH, I would then see it buried behind me, after it went thru my torso! It's the sound of the bow, not the vanes, imo.
Other than the audio, maybe next time on Skype or something, this interview is one of the best we have gotten. I am partial to both MFJJ and RF, they are the two most influential people/channels for me since getting into archery. Even with their different methodologies, I have had no problem taking advice and considerations from both and incorporating them into my own setups. I never had any idea how hard it is for the archery community to do that until these past couple years.
I mentioned this in a comment on another video, but time to target is one of the most overrated factors when it comes to most modern setups. The factor shouldn't ever be, missing by less, but where will I aim and what will it hit. Heavier arrows shed speed/momentum less over distance, are quieter, less effected by elements (wind/rain), penetrate more, and have a bigger window of lethality by being able to aim/miss forward towards the shoulder. In the case of animals moving, a heavier arrow has a larger window of lethality and is more accurate outside of perfect conditions. In general, I would lean an arrow setup down towards 250fps than up at 300fps.
Based on your comment, I’m sure you totally understand why 250 ft./s with the set up you were talking about is acceptable to you. I think there’s a decent amount of guys out there that don’t do the research all the way and don’t understand what’s happening
@@brandonmcdonald6121 I agree and even as I wrote the comment again, I realized it's mostly a moo point to make anyways.
People will ultimately shoot what they are confident and successful with. No studies or research will necessarily change that, nor should it really. There is always going to be a best way, but never an only way in archery.
A moo point..like a cows opinion it doesn't matter @@sheyanderson4371
At 25:00….when they are talking about broadhead…what I’ve seen in the industry these days-a lot are made out of cheap Chinese mystery metal and they only harden the edge of the blade and that is it….what most WT hunters don’t understand-why they should be shooting a heavier arrow (500-525 grn 15-19FOC) is that WT reaction time 1/10 of a sec-read Chuck Adams-shocking science of string jumping….it’s not just the scapula you have to get thru…it’s a rib and possibly spinal Y bone-especially if your hunting from a tree stand….and what Troy is talking about with pigs and reaction time and losing KE bc the pig moves and shooting a lighter arrow-doesn’t work at 30….excellent video
Also a faster arrow is a louder arrow-ie WT will move/react more-you’re not beating those reflexes!….quiet your setup! Your light arrow is making more noise…Troy is absolutely correct about the hissing! Heavy arrow is a quieter arrow…I hunt with a traditional bow because I believe it’s actually a better system-complete system.
I like my 525 gain arrows.
Great weight
Ranch Fairy seems not to understand that if the "kinetic energy machine" isn't delivering the projectile at the fullest level of efficiency then the kinetic energy isn't transferring to its fullest potential from the bow, to the arrow, to the animal. The Kinetic energy of the bow might be the same if it's tuned well or not but how it delivered the arrow is definitely not the same.
I was BC for 30 years then went light carbon with mechanicals didn’t know what was going on but I kept losing animals they would go three 400 yards where they used to go 20or 30 till I listen to the ranch ferry and I finally figured it out, so went back to heavy fixed. Magnus never had a problem sense , not extremely heavy but 150 fixed and overall 500 total weight
When I listen to these discussions and they hit those points of contention that everybody has an opinion but nobody has a definitive answer on, All I can think of is that's the next thing to really test.
The Hb study has so many data points.It's insane. Now it's time to find one on short placement. Is it random? Does arrow speed matter to shot placement? Etc.
I think we will debate this forever. Even with all the testing, the issue is we don’t have a consistent target. Even the exact same animal can move completely differently
@@brandonmcdonald6121 I think we need a huge sample, gathered with care and accuracy. We need thousands hits on an INCONSISTENT target, with measured results, including things like the course of penetration (not just hit location), length of the blood trail, and time to recovery. Thats how we do a lot of medical studies.
Indeed, that isnt likely to happen.
Do you have to use tuning forks? What key is best to tune a bow to? E flat?