I think there are merits to Legions Imperialis, but Epic Armageddon wins out for me. The blast marker system is brilliant in its simplicity and feels a lot more intuitive than LI's outdated "take 50% casualties, take a test" system. Also, assaults in EA feels like proper assaults, with units behind the front line being able to provide supporting fire. In LI, assaults are basically just a collection of duels. But the big selling point for my group is the variety that 40k provides, with Eldar, Orcs, Tau, Tyranids, etc, that all have distinctively different play styles. As opposed to 30k, where there are only really two factions (Space marines and Solar Auxilia).
Great video. And I have a quick request, but I understand this is very easy to ask and much harder for you to do: more battle reports, please! You've a great manner in explaining and playing the stuff and an eye for cutting out the superfluous. (I have to admit I am essentially living vicariously here cos I don't know anyone to actually play the game with at this stage. So it itches a real hubby bug seeing other people playing it and explaining it all! Solidarity from Ireland!✊☘
Cheers mate. Thanks for the comment! We do what we can my friend, we are filming Monday a new battle report for YT. Thanks for the support, God bless the Irish🍀
I wouldn't qualify LImp as streamlined or easy to learn. There are weird game mechanics choices (ex : different steps for morale with detachments or formations), uses of the transports vehicles in specific or dedicated formation, lots of similar in name or effect special rules (which are way too numerous) :/
The battle reports for epic Armageddon (and its heresy version) are really enjoyable to watch. The legions battle reports, less so. The legions games seem pretty pew, pew, pew, and appear to lack tactical depth. I really want to get into 8mm, but the current supported game doesn’t seem to warrant the time and money
Most of the batreps on here are rubbish. Not full points and many get a ton of rules wrong. Plenty of depth in LI once it's done right. Just my opinion ofc.
@@Tabletop_Standard to be clear, I really like the channel and enjoy all the battle reports including the LI stuff. I just find the LI reports I see on all channels as being less good than the epic ones. It’s a comment on the system and not on this thoroughly excellent channel.
WAs a huge fan of Epic 2nd ed. with Titan Legions back in the day. Lost interest with Epic 40.000 though. My old love has been rekindled with Legions Imperialis. We play 2K games or more on a 6x4' table with lots of scenery. Works fine.
I started playing Horus Heresy EA when LIMP was announced and now reading through Imperialis rules the biggest flop is the melee system, who thought starting with 2d6 instead of 1d6 (+CAF) was a good idea? Why some mortals with fire axes have almost certain chance to chop up terminators? Why don't terminators and contemptor dreads have special melee weapons? Please make more EA batreps.
@@user-ee6ih4tu8i I can see your point, but with 2d6 you can escalate CAF better, considering how close combat works in LI (adding dice on multiple fights)
I like the 2nd ed./LI activation system a lot, especially with the added march order. I like the mind games and trying to outfox your opponent that comes from issuing simultaneous orders. The rest of the game, however, feels a bit clunky. Close combat is extremely deadly without saves, but I prefer the more organic feeling engagements of Armageddon. I do prefer the titans in LI over EA, though. Titans felt like they lost their personality in Epic 40k, and especially EA.
Why you think they have more personality on LImp? They feel around the same as in EA to me, or even having less personality on LImp due to the lack of crits.
@@ococerello Mainly the loss of half the loadouts available in 2nd edition, and being stripped down to half or so of the available options in 3rd, and down to a single option for weapons in 4th edition. The new Battletech looking Lucius pattern and the wiping away of the heraldry of the titan legions added to the feeling.
@@kglguy Ok, but the mk3 Warlord is just an option, and not a part of the ruleset either, and EA has A LOT more options for Imperial Titan weaponry (31) than LImp (check page 165 of EA's rulebook). They just aren't on all the lists for the competitive, so its a bit better than on LImp as they have no scene for the competitive so no competitive lists.
EA or NetEA (and the Epic AU rules for the Horus Heresy) are much better game sistem that LI. Yours Battle Reports of Horus Heresy (Epic AU) are fantastic.... Waiting for more!!!!!
@@Tabletop_Standardthis is exactly why I don't play much of GWs modern stuff. They are totally against the community. Also when Rick Priestley left the quality of rules really went down. Looking forward to more Epic Armageddon!
Thanks for the video, but i have to correct the second point: - EA was not DESIGNED for 3k points, or for any points, or even army size, as it is written on its rulebook. - What it is, is the chosen points the community uses for the competitive games, and mostly used on UK and US, and more recently, as for example, on the competitive in UK and US 2600 points games were a lot more common for years. - On the other side the competitive side of EA was DESIGNED for in between 2k and 5k points. - If we are to compare the competitive of both communities, LImp, on the other side, for the tournaments there has been so far, it has been around 2000 points. - And that's leaving aside that usually, LImp games tend to loose so many units so fast that for the end of the second turn both games are tied in numbers in the competitive, when the LImp game had begun with double the troops, so comparing initial forces would not be relevant. I think it would be better compare sizes on games that need around the same time to finish on both rulesets.
Liking both but EA still wins out for me. Nothing saying you can't play 30k with EA rules, just need to plug the unit/formation gaps. Being a data analyst by trade I couldn't help dive into the old numbers to back cast the points systems and even thinking up some profiles for 30k EA for the LI range. For example tactical marines stand stays the same but drop the Missile Launcher and points value for the formation to compensate. No idea if there is serious demand to do a serious back casting of current range to EA rules though...
I returned to the hobby and started prepping for EA just a few months begore LI was announced... still am easy decision I had loads of old epic from being a very young Titan Legions owner. Just got to the point where I have 1200 points orks and white scars and ready to have a wee game
Great video! Could have said more about all the xenos factions etc that are represented in EA. Thats a pretty major difference for anyone who wants to play orks or tyranids or even squats. Also regarding morale - the 'And They Shall Know No Fear' (ATSKNF) rule is worth a mention. This special rule applies to space marines in EA - they require double the number of blast markers to be suppressed or break. Because they are the true heroes of humanity. I gather space marines in LI don't have special rules that show how hard they are to break or suppress? What a cowardly rabble. Also, obviously, the alternating activations in EA is 100x better than 'my whole army has a go, then half an hour later whatever is left of yours gets a go' - which describes every other GW game these days - why I have no idea.
Yeah I could have really gone to town on this but wanted to keep it short and sweet. I must say I'm really enjoying Legions at the moment. We've been experimenting with more EA style missions. I do agree the whole activation on EA is more impactful on the game play. Thanks for watching and commenting
Interesting video for those of us coming to epic for the first time thanks. So looking at your reasons to play limp, none of them mention the rules apart from they are easy to learn. So would you say every mechanism in EA is better than Li?
I tried in a way to avoid saying which is better as it's horses for courses. Some may prefer one over the other for reasons XYZ. My gut says EA has the better mechanics overall personally, but you'd really have to have a bash at both and see what you prefer.
I'll go ahead and say it. Every mechanism in E:A is better than Li if you spend the time to learn it. (although I prefer the Li flight mechanics over the E:A) Yes its slightly more complicated. You may have to do more legwork to get models and rules, But it also gives a better, more complete experience especially if you want to use orks, eldar, or anything else.
Just came across this while debating the merits of the preorder boxes, given that I like the models a lot but Space Marine (of which Legions is mostly a copy-paste) is a game I enjoyed much more when I was 12 than I would now, while Epic 40k is pretty much the foundation of most modern non-GW games: everything from Warlord games to Star Wars Shatterpoint seems to use a variant of the blast marker system, improved to remove the unnecessary physical cutouts. I suspect a large part of the motivation for GW reverting to an older system rather than working from an Epic 40k base game is that they want their product to be different from a ruleset that is now associated more with Warlord than Games Workshop (and could conceivably have copyright issues, as the original designers are still active in that and other companies). It might partly be my bias, but it also sounds from your tone as though you feel you're apologising for LI being what it is rather than really seeing anything much of an advantage in its 'streamlining'. I would say that the flier rules actually do look elegant, but from seeing them in action in battle reports they don't seem to amount to more than a different movement rule and the basic gameplay of playing Yahtzee with toy tanks until one player rolls more 4+s than the opponent isn't really any different from any other units.
I wish you would have mentioned the Armageddon tournament scenario vs. Limp scenarios. IMO EA has the best most comprehensive tournament game scenario ever created. you don't NEED different scenarios when the 1 tournament scenario is THAT GOOD. But you have the option of playing different scenarios.
@HeadCannonPrime we've just played two legions games using the EA tournament mission. It's excellent and the bat rep is going on Patreon hopefully tomorrow
Despite all of LI's problems, I really enjoy how lethal it is. In regular 40K, the amount of rolls you have to make to confirm a kill (sometimes only a wound), can get downright ridiculous.
@@delryn256 Got to say I'm really enjoying LI as of late using some EA style missions. And I'm lucky that I prefer 30k as a setting to 40k at this time of life
Its not about winning, but, unfortunately, nowadays there is around as many or less games of LImp than of all the editions of Epic together, same as with tournaments.
not remotely interested in EA, absolutely sterile game with a total lack of character to units, and blast markers are immersion breaking and ugly. Not saying it doesn't play well but i just have no interest in it. LI is like a few of my ex's.....expensive,has alot of problems, but is Loveable, and it can be fixed! ( the one that isn't my Ex was all of these too but she puts up with me too LOL)
Not sure why people, some demand faster rules.. take your fucking time.. no need to play every day. make it a little more special and stop dumbing the games down!
Having less time because kids and wife, and on the other side the extra focusing with each passing year on the competitive aspect of the games, i suppose.
Apologies for the loss of the comments. There was a spelling mistake I had to correct and re-post. Which really F's up my stats :(
I think there are merits to Legions Imperialis, but Epic Armageddon wins out for me. The blast marker system is brilliant in its simplicity and feels a lot more intuitive than LI's outdated "take 50% casualties, take a test" system. Also, assaults in EA feels like proper assaults, with units behind the front line being able to provide supporting fire. In LI, assaults are basically just a collection of duels.
But the big selling point for my group is the variety that 40k provides, with Eldar, Orcs, Tau, Tyranids, etc, that all have distinctively different play styles. As opposed to 30k, where there are only really two factions (Space marines and Solar Auxilia).
Great video. And I have a quick request, but I understand this is very easy to ask and much harder for you to do: more battle reports, please! You've a great manner in explaining and playing the stuff and an eye for cutting out the superfluous. (I have to admit I am essentially living vicariously here cos I don't know anyone to actually play the game with at this stage. So it itches a real hubby bug seeing other people playing it and explaining it all! Solidarity from Ireland!✊☘
Cheers mate. Thanks for the comment! We do what we can my friend, we are filming Monday a new battle report for YT. Thanks for the support, God bless the Irish🍀
I wouldn't qualify LImp as streamlined or easy to learn. There are weird game mechanics choices (ex : different steps for morale with detachments or formations), uses of the transports vehicles in specific or dedicated formation, lots of similar in name or effect special rules (which are way too numerous) :/
For me compared to EA it is. What can I say 🤷🏼♂️
Different feels and that's okay. To each its own fun, as long as each has it :)
i feel like streamlined isnt the right word ... maybe straightforward?
Great video
The battle reports for epic Armageddon (and its heresy version) are really enjoyable to watch. The legions battle reports, less so. The legions games seem pretty pew, pew, pew, and appear to lack tactical depth. I really want to get into 8mm, but the current supported game doesn’t seem to warrant the time and money
Most of the batreps on here are rubbish. Not full points and many get a ton of rules wrong. Plenty of depth in LI once it's done right. Just my opinion ofc.
@@FarseerB1rdy Gee thanks 😅
@@Tabletop_Standard not yours specifically but in general they haven't been great 🤣 no offense meant mate x
Non taken, we know we're shit! 😄
@@Tabletop_Standard to be clear, I really like the channel and enjoy all the battle reports including the LI stuff. I just find the LI reports I see on all channels as being less good than the epic ones. It’s a comment on the system and not on this thoroughly excellent channel.
WAs a huge fan of Epic 2nd ed. with Titan Legions back in the day. Lost interest with Epic 40.000 though. My old love has been rekindled with Legions Imperialis.
We play 2K games or more on a 6x4' table with lots of scenery. Works fine.
I think 2k is a sweet spot 👌🏻
Epic: Armageddon being my fav..
It´s boring without orks and others for that bit.. But the rules are.. Better. models, better etc.
I started playing Horus Heresy EA when LIMP was announced and now reading through Imperialis rules the biggest flop is the melee system, who thought starting with 2d6 instead of 1d6 (+CAF) was a good idea? Why some mortals with fire axes have almost certain chance to chop up terminators? Why don't terminators and contemptor dreads have special melee weapons?
Please make more EA batreps.
A lot of the units don't feel as they should I agree.
We're plotting an EA game currently
I agree with everything said here.
Why is it better to start with 1d6 instead of 2d6? Just curious
@@amarokwargames6620 I think it will make CAF much more impactful, so units with high CAF can kill lesser units with higher degree of certainty.
@@user-ee6ih4tu8i I can see your point, but with 2d6 you can escalate CAF better, considering how close combat works in LI (adding dice on multiple fights)
I like the 2nd ed./LI activation system a lot, especially with the added march order. I like the mind games and trying to outfox your opponent that comes from issuing simultaneous orders. The rest of the game, however, feels a bit clunky. Close combat is extremely deadly without saves, but I prefer the more organic feeling engagements of Armageddon. I do prefer the titans in LI over EA, though. Titans felt like they lost their personality in Epic 40k, and especially EA.
Why you think they have more personality on LImp? They feel around the same as in EA to me, or even having less personality on LImp due to the lack of crits.
@@ococerello Mainly the loss of half the loadouts available in 2nd edition, and being stripped down to half or so of the available options in 3rd, and down to a single option for weapons in 4th edition. The new Battletech looking Lucius pattern and the wiping away of the heraldry of the titan legions added to the feeling.
@@kglguy Ok, but the mk3 Warlord is just an option, and not a part of the ruleset either, and EA has A LOT more options for Imperial Titan weaponry (31) than LImp (check page 165 of EA's rulebook). They just aren't on all the lists for the competitive, so its a bit better than on LImp as they have no scene for the competitive so no competitive lists.
EA or NetEA (and the Epic AU rules for the Horus Heresy) are much better game sistem that LI.
Yours Battle Reports of Horus Heresy (Epic AU) are fantastic....
Waiting for more!!!!!
We may revisit those again. The main problem with that is it all got pulled off line by GW unlike the 40k stuff
@@Tabletop_Standardthis is exactly why I don't play much of GWs modern stuff. They are totally against the community.
Also when Rick Priestley left the quality of rules really went down.
Looking forward to more Epic Armageddon!
Thanks for the video, but i have to correct the second point:
- EA was not DESIGNED for 3k points, or for any points, or even army size, as it is written on its rulebook.
- What it is, is the chosen points the community uses for the competitive games, and mostly used on UK and US, and more recently, as for example, on the competitive in UK and US 2600 points games were a lot more common for years.
- On the other side the competitive side of EA was DESIGNED for in between 2k and 5k points.
- If we are to compare the competitive of both communities, LImp, on the other side, for the tournaments there has been so far, it has been around 2000 points.
- And that's leaving aside that usually, LImp games tend to loose so many units so fast that for the end of the second turn both games are tied in numbers in the competitive, when the LImp game had begun with double the troops, so comparing initial forces would not be relevant. I think it would be better compare sizes on games that need around the same time to finish on both rulesets.
Liking both but EA still wins out for me. Nothing saying you can't play 30k with EA rules, just need to plug the unit/formation gaps. Being a data analyst by trade I couldn't help dive into the old numbers to back cast the points systems and even thinking up some profiles for 30k EA for the LI range. For example tactical marines stand stays the same but drop the Missile Launcher and points value for the formation to compensate. No idea if there is serious demand to do a serious back casting of current range to EA rules though...
Should of added. I already miss blast markers as well. :D
I returned to the hobby and started prepping for EA just a few months begore LI was announced... still am easy decision I had loads of old epic from being a very young Titan Legions owner. Just got to the point where I have 1200 points orks and white scars and ready to have a wee game
Painted 1200 points, I mean!!
@@jamessampford4780 Can't go wrong with EA 😉
Great video!
Could have said more about all the xenos factions etc that are represented in EA. Thats a pretty major difference for anyone who wants to play orks or tyranids or even squats. Also regarding morale - the 'And They Shall Know No Fear' (ATSKNF) rule is worth a mention. This special rule applies to space marines in EA - they require double the number of blast markers to be suppressed or break. Because they are the true heroes of humanity. I gather space marines in LI don't have special rules that show how hard they are to break or suppress? What a cowardly rabble.
Also, obviously, the alternating activations in EA is 100x better than 'my whole army has a go, then half an hour later whatever is left of yours gets a go' - which describes every other GW game these days - why I have no idea.
Yeah I could have really gone to town on this but wanted to keep it short and sweet. I must say I'm really enjoying Legions at the moment. We've been experimenting with more EA style missions. I do agree the whole activation on EA is more impactful on the game play. Thanks for watching and commenting
Interesting video for those of us coming to epic for the first time thanks.
So looking at your reasons to play limp, none of them mention the rules apart from they are easy to learn. So would you say every mechanism in EA is better
than Li?
I tried in a way to avoid saying which is better as it's horses for courses. Some may prefer one over the other for reasons XYZ. My gut says EA has the better mechanics overall personally, but you'd really have to have a bash at both and see what you prefer.
@@Tabletop_Standard ok thanks!
I'll go ahead and say it. Every mechanism in E:A is better than Li if you spend the time to learn it. (although I prefer the Li flight mechanics over the E:A)
Yes its slightly more complicated. You may have to do more legwork to get models and rules, But it also gives a better, more complete experience especially if you want to use orks, eldar, or anything else.
for me first edition is my favourite , the only thing i think the later games did better was expanding the weapon ranges
Just came across this while debating the merits of the preorder boxes, given that I like the models a lot but Space Marine (of which Legions is mostly a copy-paste) is a game I enjoyed much more when I was 12 than I would now, while Epic 40k is pretty much the foundation of most modern non-GW games: everything from Warlord games to Star Wars Shatterpoint seems to use a variant of the blast marker system, improved to remove the unnecessary physical cutouts. I suspect a large part of the motivation for GW reverting to an older system rather than working from an Epic 40k base game is that they want their product to be different from a ruleset that is now associated more with Warlord than Games Workshop (and could conceivably have copyright issues, as the original designers are still active in that and other companies).
It might partly be my bias, but it also sounds from your tone as though you feel you're apologising for LI being what it is rather than really seeing anything much of an advantage in its 'streamlining'. I would say that the flier rules actually do look elegant, but from seeing them in action in battle reports they don't seem to amount to more than a different movement rule and the basic gameplay of playing Yahtzee with toy tanks until one player rolls more 4+s than the opponent isn't really any different from any other units.
I wish you would have mentioned the Armageddon tournament scenario vs. Limp scenarios. IMO EA has the best most comprehensive tournament game scenario ever created. you don't NEED different scenarios when the 1 tournament scenario is THAT GOOD. But you have the option of playing different scenarios.
@HeadCannonPrime we've just played two legions games using the EA tournament mission. It's excellent and the bat rep is going on Patreon hopefully tomorrow
Good review. The people who don’t want to buy it “because it doesn’t feature X army” will never buy it, even if it eventually does.
"You can't please all of the people, all of the time"
Despite all of LI's problems, I really enjoy how lethal it is. In regular 40K, the amount of rolls you have to make to confirm a kill (sometimes only a wound), can get downright ridiculous.
One army two games, win win
💯
EA looks like the clear winner here. LI being 30k (aka lack of variety) is just one of several downsides.
@@delryn256 Got to say I'm really enjoying LI as of late using some EA style missions. And I'm lucky that I prefer 30k as a setting to 40k at this time of life
the comments :(
I had to repost. Mist a spelling, and my OCD won't allow it. Sorry
@@Tabletop_Standard I cee wot u deed their.
Can't help my self it seems 🫠
What’s important is being able to get games. So legions wins. Also it’s better anyway 😮
But still, being able to get games in wins
Its not about winning, but, unfortunately, nowadays there is around as many or less games of LImp than of all the editions of Epic together, same as with tournaments.
I detested Epic Armageddon it's the resaon I stopped played epic.
@@newhope33 🤣 Fair enough
not remotely interested in EA, absolutely sterile game with a total lack of character to units, and blast markers are immersion breaking and ugly. Not saying it doesn't play well but i just have no interest in it.
LI is like a few of my ex's.....expensive,has alot of problems, but is Loveable, and it can be fixed! ( the one that isn't my Ex was all of these too but she puts up with me too LOL)
😮 Blast markers are the best bit! 😄
Blast Markers are great!
You are both entitled to you wrong opinions 😜
😄
Not sure why people, some demand faster rules.. take your fucking time.. no need to play every day. make it a little more special and stop dumbing the games down!
All about the fast hammer these days. Gaming club times and event rounds I guess
Abso-fecking-lutely.
Having less time because kids and wife, and on the other side the extra focusing with each passing year on the competitive aspect of the games, i suppose.