I wish I had a source for this, but I remember reading that when he was writing the manga, Toriyama tried so damned hard to kill off Goku and put the spotlight on Gohan, until his editor sat Toriyama down and told him if he killed Goku, the publishers would drop the manga entirely. Goku apparently makes Mickey-Mouse-levels of money, and they didn't want to lose the golden goose.
@@SableZardYT That explains how Goku died a million times but always came back like it was nothing. Death is a joke in DB. Anyway that's what I find most characteristic about him and it is ridiculous.
The sudden change in direction with Gohan is what ruined it for me. They spent several episodes with his training and building up his arc as a "chosen" by the Kais, but then he falls short because of an issue he already once faced fighting Cell. It felt more like a cop-out than a flaw considering Gohan was more experienced with failure than most. I still believe it was a behind the scenes decision to prop Goku up as the main hero towards the end because Goku/Vegeta sells more to viewers than Gohan. It's no coincidence Vegeta and Goku both get resurrected within the same two episodes.
Toriyama messed up Gohan well before that. The second Videl gets her shit stomped in the tournament is the second Gohan’s own story completely vanishes from the spotlight.
@@kyleyang4711 That’s false. It’s been a known thing for awhile now that Toriyama just didn’t know what to do with Gohan. Because he’s not a story teller, he’s a gag writer. There’s a reason his story starts to tank during DBZ, and it’s because he wasn’t copying Journey to the West anymore
I've always kind of felt like Piccolo fusing with Kami was pointless. He gets this huge powerup and becomes the strongest character for a very brief period of time and then immediately becomes irrelevant (power-wise) for the rest of the series.
@@dougtheghoul2845 i wouldn't call it filler, when he fought frieza in his 2nd form it was actually pretty cool to see piccolo fucking trample him. It was also a setup for his 3rd form
That's because, and everyone hates me for shitting on the show, despite it being one of my favorite childhood cartoons, it's shit writing didn't even come close to starting in the Buu Saga. While the Buu Saga is especially bad, Dragonball Z is not the paragon of narration some people pretend it to be. It is constantly breaking its own rules, it's power scailing is so out of control that it the gold standard to just write characters stronger and then figure out just how much stronger later. The devices used for such power increases are also sloppily written at best. Goku goes from a power level from 180,000 vs Ginuy, but is in one fight and manages to power up to 3,000,000. Why? Because they wanted Freeza to be impossibly strong and they were literally throwing out numbers for power levels back then. That's why we have power levels in the gozillian range. So they wanted Freeza to be so strong, it's a pipe dream to be able go defeat him at best, even when Goku shows up. Well they're already in the hundred thousands. Well, let's transform him and say he's at a million and just scale Goku up from there. Wait, you want to transform him some more? But he's already at a million! ANOTHER ONE ON TOP OF THAT? AND YOU WANT THAT TO BE 1% OF HIS POWER?!?!?! You realize Goku should be at 300,000 maximum... right? Oh, you don't care about the numbers, just make it happen? Hmm... maybe I should have come up with an actual scale instead of coming up with numbers out my butt. Too late now. Only that all takes place in Toriyamas head, because he doesn't think about shit until he's forced to address the details. Even after DECADES of the show and Manga being popular around the world, Super is even worse! He doesn't consider the implications of making characters stronger and so he just does it on a whim. The the fans ask for power levels or just exactly HOW strong is this new form is. Even then fans will come up with a theory and he'll pretty much say yes to the one that fits the best. How strong is Super Sayian? Oh, well this one guy calculated that Goku would need to be 50x stronger... so that's how strong it is. This guy says Gohan would need be at least twice as strong as a Full Powere Super Sayian, so let's go with that. Now we have gods and Deatroyers, and Ultra Instinct Kaioken times 50 bojillian Super Sayian Rainbow level 12 because Toriyama wants it to be like Yu-Gi-Oh where people need to find clever solutions to win, but he also wants people to know who's the strongest person at all times. No, Buu isn't scary because he's a pink blob mobster who can't seem to die. He's also REALLY super strong. No, Cell doesn't rely on the techniques of the fighters that make up his core, or that he has infinite regeneration. Those aren't the scary bits. The scary bit is that he's SUUUUPER strong. But Gohan has mad he can use. Gohan uses mad and now he's stronger. He doesn't have the fights he wants but he still writes like they are and disregards all the things he needs to write the fights like they actually are.
I never understood the power scaling in DBZ. It all became so blurred and meaningless. And it didn’t help that all the villains could all blow up an entire planet effortlessly. It’s like, ok what can this new dude do differently that the previous villain couldn’t? And why are the heroes now suddenly struggling when they’ve had this song and dance several times before?
I think Videl could've served a bigger role on revitalizing Gohan's drive and love of fighting alongside Piccolo. As for Kid Trunks, I actually like him being a spoiled brat considering him being born to a multimillion dollar family and business while being the direct descent of Saiyan royalty. His character arc could be him learning how to overcome his ego, learning to respect his peers and opponents, and growing into a proper man -- something Vegeta himself didn't have growing up.
This is a 100% my vegeta fanboy coming out so I’m not even gonna deny it lol, but imo the buu saga was fantastic all the way to vegetas sacrifice but after that I feel like everything becomes such a big mess a fun mess with good moments but still a big mess
I personally think that it makes sense that Kid Trunks is so different compared to his future self. Future Trunks grew up in an apocalyptic world where not only did all of its defenders had been killed by the androids but the human population was in a constant decline because of a force that couldn't be stopped or reasoned with. The only one around to protect his world was Gohan and even he ended falling in the end. Kid Trunks on the other hand grew up in a peaceful world where not only are all of its defenders alive and well but there wasn't a constant threat in the background which meant that Kid Trunks could actually take his time to enjoy being a kid and make friends like Goten. Future Trunks became who he was because of necessity while present Trunks didn't have all that baggage to mold him like his future self. Because of this I think it's a little unfair to expect Kid Trunks to turn out just like his future self when there are so many different factors present that would obviously effect his personality and growth.
Toriyamas crazy ass once suggested that future trunks was the son of Yamcha which is why he had the sword, the friendly attitude, and the good hairline.
I don't think it just trunks being different thats the issue...its that future trunks struggled and feels like he earned his power. Kid trunks kinda just craps all over that.
The Buu saga was definitely the result of Toriyama’s writing fatigue getting the best of him. While his art was phenomenal throughout the arc, you can definitely feel like his motivation and enthusiasm wasn’t nearly on the same level as the other sagas
That and part of the deal for him continuing was that he'd get to do whatever he wanted, effectively without an editor. Hence, no one to check him on all the pointless build-up. An editor might've forced him to either cut back Gotenks's time in the spotlight, or forced him to do a more even fight between Gohan and Buutenks, or maybe even Goku is the one who gets absorbed and thus his sons have to indirectly fight him.
The art wasn't phenomenal, at least in the manga. Just compare panels from the Namek/Frieza saga vs Buu saga ones and it's clear he was so done by that point. I do have to agree the art and animation was phenomenal during the Buu saga in DBZ
There are three main issues that stopped me from enjoying Dragon Ball entirely after the Frieza saga, which would be: 1- Emphasis on power levels instead of martial arts, which was initially the core of the series. 2- Resurrection, which is, honestly, an issue I've had with this franchise at it's core. I don't like the trope resurrection in fiction, it ruins everything and kills all tension and sacrifices. 3- Only the Saiyans matter, and eventually only Goku and Vegeta. I hate how all the other characters are sidelined, I'd rather having them killed off instead of all the deaths Goku and the other resurrected characters have had, just so Toriyama had real reasons to focus on the characters he obviously likes the most. Apart from that, this was a cool video and this franchise is really fun to experience
So you have a problem with Resurrection but made it to the Frieza saga? Goku was killed in the first handful of episodes in Z. How did you make it to the frezia saga
@@DarknessFlameMedia Probably because dying was still meaningful and in the Frieza arc there was no dragon balls from Earth to save your ass (which was the whole point of going to Namek after Vegeta and Frieza anyway). Also, really, when you grow up as a kid watching certain series you don't ask such a question, cause it's obvious why somebody would still watch Dragon Ball, it's OUR damn series.
@@DarknessFlameMedia You are looking it through today's eyes, remember that in that time there was only 1 set of Dragon Balls, so you could only resurrect once and never again, to be honest Goku dying in the first 5 episodes was great, because that was his only resurrection shot, every fight after he could not die or it would be permanent. Then Namek happened, while you could have more Dragon Balls, they should have kept the: "You can only resurrect once" regardless of the set you use, would have solved the problem.
Wait...after frieza saga? That was "pivotal power gap with numbers" issue the entire start. Just say after dragonball. It got so convoluted beyond that it was just powe gaps. Saiyan saga at least krillins destructo disc still wouldve chopped nappas head...
Goten is an awful character and annoyed me in every scene. Total bad rip off of kid Goku, kid Goku and Gohan were likeable at least and didn't pul SSJ out of their backside.
True. Well, besides the sense of urgency he had when watching Chi Chi get killed then went hard as hell in the time chamber, that is. That was a pretty cool showing from him. But besides that, yeah, he wasn’t much.
The first part of the buu saga is incredible. Finally getting that long awaited rematch between Goku and Vegeta, Vegeta turning evil again and murdering thousands of people. But then seeing his character arc finally get the closure he deserved when he is confronted by what he actually loved most. Not power, or being the strongest, but his family (Trunks and Bulma). And then finally sacrificing his life to try to save those he cared about most.
And after this is just a bunch of "nopes" Vegeta sacrifice was usefull? Nope Super saiyan 3 will kill buu? Nope Gotenks will kill buu? Nope Majin buu will turn good? Nope And so continues
@@Fuk99999 so true, I describe the buu saga as a really fun mess. The story is so messy, but we got Super Saiyan 3, Vegito, Gotenks, Ultimate Gohan, seeing Goku and Vegeta fight together. It had so many amazing moments to be fair.
Even a not fruitful sacrifice could feel real, give you emotions. Like in Sayian arc, with deaths of Chaotzu, Tien, Yamcha. We as viewer just not given enough time to feel sorrow for Vegeta, and following setup is shit. It s like "did Vegeta just died?" "Uhha, haha" - Buu laughs. Any another character don't care about it, not Goku, not any z-fighter, not even Bulma. They cared more during Vegeta fighting vs Cell!
His biggest achievment in the saga was literraly becoming the great saiyaman, he did nothing else, he just fought dabura, fought super buu and that is it for him
@@Legomilho yup all because hes not goku and goku fans would bitch if goku wasnt in the show despite the show really supposed to be more gohans time and adventures rather than gokus lol
I'll never forgive what they did to Gohan. Gohan is a very selfless person who is shown willing to fight and die for those he loves. Just because someone "doesn't like fighting" doesn't mean they wouldn't devote their life to a cause. "WOOPS HURPDEDURP! DROPPED THA POTARAS!"
He literally never trained unless someone was forcing him to do it. You never liked him as a character if you can't get over the fact that he is not someone who ever wants to gain power. The fact that they keep boosting him back to the top is what you should be mad about. He should be krillin tier
@@DarknessFlameMedia I agree he shouldn't get the asspulls he gets. I just want him to be relevant in other ways, but this is, IMO a weakness of Toriyama's inability to create character relevancy outside of whoever simply trains the most and has the most brute strength. Maybe Gohans brains and inquisitive side could lead him to be interested in gaining a more scientific understanding of Ki. His acutely natural attunement to Ki could lead him into a joint project with Bulma to understand Ki as an energy source and it's potential applications, maybe one of them being some device which applies its user with a power multiplier.
@@DarknessFlameMedia"Unless he was forced" Who forced him to go to Namek? Who forced him to train whit Piccolo and Goku for 3 yrs? Who forced him to go into the time chamber? Gohan was ONLY forced when Piccolo kidnapped him at 4. At that point he LITERALLY wanted to become stronger every time he could. The thing is, Gohan is not like Goku who finds purpose in life through fighting, but Gohan was NEVER forced to do anything. He ACTIVELY did it. The one time he was reluctant was against Cell.
The boo saga holds most of my memories and nostalgia for the show. Back when I was watching one episode at a time. Never ever though of it like this as a kid. And the way boo kept evolving blew my mind!
@Justin Arzola At least the Buu saga ending with the evil kid Buu successfully destroyed and the Dragon Team winning the day. The Zamasu arc in super however ending in tragedy when Zamasu consumed the whole future universe and killed those survivors and Goku summoning Zeno to erase the future timeline to get rid of Zamasu. It was only a loss for Future Trunks because Goku & Vegeta still had their timeline to live in. Future Trunks on the other hand was forced to go into a new timeline to live in.
I loved the Buu saga as a kid mainly because of fusions but now that I’m older and went back thru the whole series, the Buu saga was a big ass mess of a saga compared to previous ones
I rewatched the entire show during quarantine and tbh the buu saga was fun until buu came. After that it just felt like one long fight where no one can’t do shit. Too many forms and transformations for both the protagonist and the antagonist.
@@el_bambino4804 I rewatched the buu saga a couple years ago and looking back on it the first half was okay but when buu came along and gotenks in his SSJ3 form were a hot mess
I was the same when I was younger. I saw the Buu saga as the best. As I've gotten older, the Cell Saga is the best now. And the Buu Saga is like the "fun" but not good saga
Thank you for talking about videl. The way they disrespected her character, such a shame. She had potential to be my favorite character, they ruined her.
Not only Videl, actually. Unfortunately, it seems that Toriyama can't write female characters for too long, because they all end up either forgotten (like Launch), or tossed aside; becoming nothing more than housewives to the main characters..., Just look at Videl, Chi-Chi, Bulma, Mai, #18, etc... This trend is all over Dragon Ball and it's a shame, really.
@@kakarotblack5985 Not really, that fight actually made her, it established her as a tough badass who would still fight no matter how outmatched she was. She was still awesome and kicking ass even after that fight, even having the attitude to step up to Buu. What ruined her was everything that happened after the defeat of Buu.
I think what I especially hated was how short the fighting tournament got cut In the original dragon ball, there were three different tournaments and every one was crazy fleshed out In the buu saga, there's this whole build up to the tournament then it's just cut short to get on with the story
The core problem with Buu Saga is that it's directionless. None of these things would be problems if the story was planned out. From the way Toriyama talks about it the return of Goku seems to have really messed up the original plan.
Kinda sucks how Videl learned to fly and even formed a small energy ball in her hands but never continued. She could have learned to fire actual ki blasts and fly at faster speeds.
Agreed. I liked teen videl, she could have continued training and take on crime by herself or along side saiyaman. Can you imagine videl chasing lunch? While lunch fires a machine gun at her. Fun little moments like that are gone.
I actually liked Goten in GT. He was a teenager doing normal stuff like going on dates and not wanting to train but when the chips are down he goes to fight evil with the rest of z warriors. It was just a shame we never got to see adult Gotenks in GT
This may not be a popular opinion but Cell should have been the final villain to DBZ. It would make sense since he was the ultimate creation who carried the genes of Goku, Vegeta, Gohan, Piccolo, Krillin, Yamcha, Tien, Chiaotzu, Frieza, and King Cold. The Z fighters themselves were basically going off against a being who was basically the walking manifestation of how far they have come throughout the entire franchise in terms of power scaling and strength progression.
Ive been saying this for years. Cell feels like a true climax. I like to think Akira toriyama thinks the same because a cell like figure is the final boss of not one but at least two jrpgs he has worked on. Those being chrono trigger and dragon quest 11.
@@oogaboogie Freiza saga was actually supposed to be the final arc. Toriyama was forced to do the Cell saga. Its why Super Saiyan went from legendary, to everyone being one etc
Videl could’ve used her fame and wealth to teach people how to use ki control and make it main stream. improve their society to the point ki is a necessity. Characters like Vegeta probably would grew to love teaching the next generation
Since Hercule helped redeem Majin Buu, I think it would help if Videl lent a hand to redeem Buu as well alongside her father. And during it she slowly makes Hercule come out to tell the truth to his fans
The videl part hurts the most I think. I really took a liking to Videl and to see this tough chick be reduced to furniture was just sad, a waste of potential that could have seen her be the strongest human fighter and a tag-team with Gohan, she could have gone Ultimate as well and... god just thinking about it is depressing. On a related note another waste of potential was the scrapped design for SSJ3 where it had the golden tail. That should have been kept in my opinion to further bridge the gap between 3, golden great ape, and finally SSJ4.
@@joshuaguevara1309 Remember it was Yajirobe who stopped great ape Vegeta, Tien who blasted Cell to within an inch of his life, and Mr Satan who made it possible for Goku to beat Kid Buu. You only think that way because you've been conidtioned to by the writers. I'm no saying Videl should solo Buu but she could have done a lot more than become a cheerleader.
@@monkeybone1080 you are using established characters whose involvement was foreshadowed and what they did at the moment was believable for them , the tien one is still really iffy but I see why people like it. Not a brand new character barley learning to concentrate ki , who’s purpose is to fight - fighting against beings super saiyan 3 still wasn’t enough for. its not conditioning it’s logic. You guys want to throw it out. Ironically that’s what they did in super and it’s one of the worst things about it
@@joshuaguevara1309 You're still not getting it. Not once did I state that she should be on the same level and certainly not straight away, you're assuming I want her to 1v1 kid Buu or something which is nonsense, all I was saying is that she should have been training right along side Gohan the whole time and being able to compete to some level, she still won't be able to match a Saiyan obviously but having her actually participate and even swerve a few times would be far better than what we got because I don't know about you but I'd like to see a return to some outside characters actually doing something for once.
I believe Buu was far better than cell saga, vegeta was too ignorant and allowed cell to absorb 18, cell was too cocky to blow up the earth, and goku gave his villian a senzu bean and made his son fight for him, what a stupid idea for an arc
my favorite thing about the arc was vegeta's development. vegeta, goku and piccolo have all mellowed out. Goku thinks about the world he's no longer a part of, how to teach his sons to look after it because he wont be there forever. He enjoys a good fight but doesnt let his boner for fighting cloud his mind like in Super for example. Gotenks as a kid was pretty damn cool. As an adult, i cannot tolerate him that long. Gohan fumbles a victory that was basically handed to him. Toriyama didnt seem to be able to make up his mind
His analysis about Videl being a potential reform to Mr. Satan's family reputation was amazing! My dude made me think of possibilities I never imagined!
I like Goten a lot, especially when he's playing around with Trunks. The series needs a break from the constant seriousness or it gets incredibly boring. Him and Trunks playing also reminds us of the reason *why* saving everyone is so important. Hammering 'villain will destroy the earth' into our heads over and over again with nothing to ground us there is worthless.
The problem is his only character trait is that he’s trunks best buddy and gohan and goku’s family member. That’s it. They don’t do nothing with him but to be kid trunks damn sidekick
I agree with just about everything you mention here, especially making trunks and goten make original SSJ look like a joke. Then they reach ssj3? When I was younger I thought that was cool, another SSJ3 in the saga, but now I realize it is kind of lacking in feeling. Goku's SSJ3 is phenomenal, but Gotenks has no emotion to it.
Tbh as cool as ssj3 is to me, I won’t lie that even as form, it was already kinda lacking in feeling in it of itself. The dude here already made a pretty good case as to why on its own. But i think people like totally not mark and mistarfusion also pointed out and added more to it on how pretty much functions like a jumpscare; Something designed more to shock you in the moment but leave little impact after the fact. Most think 3 is cool af, but its kinda crazy to me in retrospect how the THIRD form of super saiyan isn’t held in as memorable and high regard compared to the first too. And like the video says, the circumstances on which the form itself was made was already pretty much set up to fail and have little impact given the circumstances of when, why and how it was being used in the series. Even though toriyama writes out his ass a lot, I don’t think people can deny that the journey to goku and gohan getting their forms certainly fit and felt earned and wasn’t just an entirely random thing that happened and was quickly discarded. Super saiyan had 2 arcs, but its signifcance persists all the way into super. 2 at least had the rear end of the cell saga. 3 had one moment to shine in its own arc and nothing else after it 💀
It's quite the testament to Z when this arc, which had SO MANY fan favorite concepts and moments, is the worst of the series. It shows how amazing the show is as a whole and how good the other arcs are. And even then, like you said it's still a very enjoyable arc despite it being the worst of the main arcs in Z. I feel like it set up the formula for largely what Dragon Ball is today: Tons of epic moments and sequences, but they don't have as much impact on the overall story as they should.
The whole arc was seemingly written as a one big joke tbh, seemed like Toriyama was tired of Dragon Ball so this was the result. It basically deconstructed a lot of things that were built up in the past while also deflating certain build-ups at the same time. Goku should have remained dead and act more as a support to Gohan, Goten shouldn't have been created at all as his antics with Trunks bring Trunks down as a character. It would have been a good move to keep the close friendship between Gohan and Trunks as it was in dark timeline to show that it wasn't just circumstances that brought these two together. Gohan is more like a scholar type and while future Trunks is a great fighter, he is, like Gohan, more about being level headed. Also, yeah, Videl being relegated from a competent fighter to a childbearing Gohan fangirl waifu was just the most japanese shit ever, waste of a character...
If you think about it. Toriyama was ready to leave DBZ as a TV animation up to TOEI themselves and simply work the manga as he wished, ignoring where the TV series was headed. But I guess TOEI was so hell bent on waving dollar signs at toriyama for his continued involvement which what led to what the buu saga ended up being. A complete 180. GT exists because the buu saga exists. It's sad but true. The production of GT is the remains of what happened behind the scenes during the buu saga.
Seemed like a big joke because that's what did. In an interview long ago he said once he got his editors to confirm this would be the end he gag'd the arc up. He is a gag writer anyway. 11 years of work, dropping a chapter every week, zero breaks, dude was tired.
Your take on videl is near delusional. There’s absolutely no chance nor a reason for her to be strong as any of the Z fighters, or for her to be anything other than a character to compliment Gohan. Videl coming out of nowhere and being stronger than Krillin and Tien who have both trained their entire lives would have been significantly worse writing that what actually happened
Alll the human characters should have been progressing over the years, as should Piccolo. That's the point... they focused too much on Saiyans and not the whole roster of characters getting stronger.
I think this arc fundamentally cemented goku's character and why as a fan loved and admired him. Especially that speech vegeta made about him during kid buu. It was really inspiring. Plus it had some of my favourite moments of Z. But I agree. The buu saga while still close for me is the first signs of straying away from what dragonball would become with super which I do not like
my biggest problem is we get a LOT of very cool ideas, 3 very powerful forms, some of which combine: 1) SS3 2) Fusion 3) Mystic Gohan 4) SS3 Gotenks and they all somehow manage to f**k it up and NOT get the kill... all those insane power ups for NOTHING, no pay off at all.
I remember goku said he could kill or beat Majin buu but he doesn't because he wanted the kids to do it There all lot problems of this, they could've won but no they over confidence
@@ultrainstinctgokuhope7442 yeah that’s a big problem too… even though i understand his point, it’s yet another example of Goku’s naive nature biting his arse.
@@TheAuron32 true but let’s be real in the fans perspective, if he did actually went through with killing Buu then people would just bitch and complain about not seeing of how the kids could handle him with Fusion.
yeah in the end they just reuse an old idea to beat Buu, instead of a new one lol. I get Toriyama wanted the story to "surprise" people, but after a certain point it feels like the plot itself is trolling us.
The Buu arc definitely killed the drama, tension, and growth of the story and characters up to that point. The entire Z half of Dragonball's plot was about the growth of the next generation (Gohan) and reformation of the major villain of the original DB (Piccolo) and the saiyans (Vegeta). Even the humans had their own themes going on with their attempts to still find ways to support in some effective manner through ki manipulation and concentration of energy to be able to display super saiyan levels of power for individual strikes by the time they fought against the Androids and Cell. It wasn't enough by the time Cell came out, but their efforts showed and everyone was at least important enough to be included in the story for the role they played. All of this was just thrown away in the Buu arc, and that absolutely sucked. Bringing up the lost connection between Gohan and Trunks especially hurts considering their special relationship in the Cell saga. So much quality work just gone. The story really should've ended with Cell, I feel. It's almost a shame it didn't, even though I do have fun with Buu and some of the new concepts introduced in the saga. For all intents and purposes, the real plot of DBZ does end with Cell, with Vegeta sacrificing himself for his family when Trunks is killed and reluctantly admitting how much he cares, Gohan stepping up to become the hero he needs to be and accepting the responsibility that fell onto his shoulders, Piccolo fusing and coming to terms with returning himself to being one being, Krillin actually hitting Cell with his I can't spell the Japanese name so Destructo Disk and then finally landing his lifelong dream girl in 18, Future Trunks saving the future. It all just wraps everything up so nicely. Everything after is just fanfic as far as I'm concerned. Toriyama was the author of DB, but his editors from the Cell saga and before were the real creators of the gold as far as I'm concerned.
Exactly man. I couldn’t have said it any better myself. I personally think DB needs closure like YYH. Ppl still love YYH but it never gotten to the point where another saga was requested and the author wasn’t rdy thus proceeding to put down plenty of insensible plot points that are all over the comments.
Practically all of DBZ is flying from fight to fight and internally monologuing about how strong the saiyans are lol...if you are over 12 and find these characters or stories compelling, you really need to expand your palate. The android saga reintroduces an element of mystery that was present in Dragon Ball. The Buu Saga commits to how ridiculous the show had become. The rest of the show is self-serious nonsense.
@@CripplingDuality I didn't say it was a masterwork of writing, but it had a solid through-line that all great stories have and the Buu arc utterly decimated the through-line of the entire Z half of the series. It clearly seemed to put market and Toriyama's Toriyamaness above actually cohesive storytelling, and despite how fight and scream and fight some more DBZ is with plot dumps all mixed throughout, it did have a cohesive narrative that even a kid could see (Gohan coming to terms with his latent power and succeeding his father as Earth's strongest warrior and protector). Mostly cause Toriyama didn't know how to deliver on transforming his characters actual character with growth after a planned introduction arc where they start evil or at least antagonist-y and turn good or get killed by the end of the immediate conflict. Ironic for someone who's credited with creating some of the most iconic transformations in all of media.
I wouldn't say the Majin Buu saga killed the drama, tension, and growth of the story and characters because there were actually a lot of moments where the stakes were high and scenes that were very sad such as Majin Vegeta killing himself and Mr Satan getting shot which triggered Super Buu showing up. Most of the Z fighters still played an important role whether it was for a short moment or not. I think the Majin Buu saga was a good ending for dragon ball z because we get to see Goku and Vegeta end in good terms which never came to full circle in the Cell saga. Throughout the whole show Vegeta wanted to surpass Goku and become the strongest Saiyan but after so many hardships he humbles himself and admits Goku is better than him. At that point his character did a 180 in a good way. Also Goku coming back to life was a good ending since he got to reunite with his family and make a connection with Goten.
@@em9886 The Buu saga gives in some areas, but it comes at the cost of Gohan's prior character development, including him already coming to terms with the need to fight to protect and realizing that his own overconfidence cost his father his life, the importance and difficult of attaining the super saiyan transformation and ascending beyond that, Piccolo becoming the Yamcha jobber of the arc, showing up to events just to show off how powerful someone else is by losing/giving up to them without fighting or standing around in complete awe of their power. etc etc. It's a fun arc, and it does some good stuff for Goku and Vegeta, but it mostly does more harm than good to literally everyone else
Man, Goku Black should've been future Goten. Goten and Trunks enemies in the future could bring so much opportunities to develop and do something with the kids...
Goku Black should have been Gohan Black instead; Zamasu taking Gohan's body would make a lot of narrative sense, and go a long way to giving the viewers a glimpse of the potential Gohan had, not never fully realized.
Unpolular opinion but Toriyama is an absolute horrid writer. We got 17, 18 and Cell because of studio interference (and thank god). Once Akira is unhinged, we get dumb as a brick childlike Goku like we did in Super.
Listening to you talk about SS3 just made me realize that Luffy's Gear 4th forms, more specifically Bounce-Man is SS3 done right. Gear 4th is an ascension of an asecnsion, essentially ccombining the ideas of Gear 2nd and 3rd with Haki. It looks goofy, but Luffy kicks some serious ass with it with Doffy barely being able to keep up. However, the from is incredibly taxing on both Luffy's body and Haki with him being rendered immobile for 10 minutes after using it. Doffy is barely able to outlast the form, which then forces the side characters to hold him off until Luffy comes back. Once back, Luffy uses the form to beat Doffy effortlessly in one punch. After that, Luffy keeps training with the form and masters it more and more to the point that he no longer needs to recharge after using it. He also gets various alterations to Gear 4th (Tank Man and Snake Man) but those seems to be forms that specialize in one aspect (Defence for Tank Man and Speed for Snake Man) and Bounce-Man remains his default. I think it also helps that only Luffy can use these forms.
The saga started very good. There were some great moments and fat buu going from evil to good was really well executed but after that it just dragged on. Lots of build up for Gotenks and Gohan... they get absorbed. There are some good moments but they wasted so many plot points. Way too much shit happens.
@@Jiron127 buus definitely smart but a lot also happens Toriyama found decent ways to continue the story but the arc had like 3 times where it felt like it could end
Actually I really like it all the way up to Gohan issue was after kid Buu came out it really dragged on after that and lost all the steam which makes sense since it was the end .
@@hiruyabebaw807 Not really. In fact, straight after the buu saga she is the great sayiawoman, and continues being the vigilante crime fighter she always was, and of course in DBS: Superhero she is a martial arts teacher. She is just more mature now, which happens with age.
The buu saga had many cool concepts... but all of them were poorly executed. And I hated how kid buu's defeat was because the earthlings were too stupid to listen to Hercule Satan.
Goku saves the world publicly many times He's also a wolrd champion and known as the strongest man in the world, at least cell saga had the excuse that he wssnt recognized because super saiyan looks
@@kyubeycoobie3568 when did Goku saved earth publicly? The only time i remember is during the piccolo jr Arc but that was atleast 23 years ago and then Goku settled down in the forest basically out of the public sights for years, so of course they wouldn't know who son Goku is
Wdym the ending was good. Since it didn't rely on Goku alone saving the day again but instead took the help of all the people from the universe to beat a force of nature that was buu
Gohan should have been the one to defeat Buu. I have no problem with Gotenks being absorbed because it presents a challenge instead of having Gohan just destroy Buu effortlessly...but Gohan still should have defeated him in the end. Vegito is badass but they could have saved him for another saga after Buu...possibly a Janemba saga. I also wish they had a longer fight with Dabura.
I heard that was the writer's original intent. But when the fans found out they protested and didn't want the spotlight to be taken away from Goku. So he ended up changing his ideas at the end and made Goku the hero again. This would explain the inconsistency (just one among many) of Gohan's ultimate form ending up being completely useless. Because he had to be sidelined to Goku could save the day again. Then again, it was not impressive at all how Gohan achieved this form. The unlocking "hidden potentional" arc was already fully completed when he defeated Cell. To say that there was more potential to be unlocked is lazy and boring writing. And all he had to do was sit down while this pervy old guy reading comics was unlocking it. Sounds like a joke to me.
Goten and Trunks should of at least earned SSJ in the Buu arc. Hell when Super Buu turns Chi Chi into a egg and crushes her, that would of been the perfect moment for Goten to rage out and go SSJ. Goten didn't know Goku that well and he wasn't there to see Gohan "die". Chi Chi meant everything for Goten, and her dying happened right in front of his eyes, he literally watched it happen. You could not of had a more perfect moment. And using this moment to trigger SSJ in Goten would of changed Chi Chi's death from being a joke, to actually being a serious moment in the series. Trunks could of triggered SSJ when he was watching Majin Buu kick Majin Vegeta's ass. Trunks holds a great deal of respect for Vegeta and is always trying to prove his worth to his dad. Seeing hid dad getting beaten and about to die would be more then enough for Trunks to trigger SSJ out of desperation. Plus it all works out where we can still have Vegeta hug his son "I'm so proud of you my boy, look at you. My son, a super saiyan. I need you to do a favour for me son, look after your mother for me. I love you, Trunks" Then karate chop to the neck to knock Trunks out, Piccolo grabs him and flies away and Vegeta does his final explosion, just like the original story. Two moments in the saga that could of meant so much more, that could of served a purpose. But no, the writers instead just gave Goten and Trunks SSJ right from the start of the arc for no reason whatsoever. Then later in Super had to come up with some S-Cells garbage to try and explain away their shoddy writing in the Buu Saga.
Yes I love your idea better. The moment goten turns ssj and fights Buu would have been perfect for ssj trunks to jump in as well and suggest fusion. So, there would be no need for the time chamber and goku would be the only ssj3 in the series.
This would've been so much better. Goten turning SSJ when he sees his mother die by Buu would've been the perfect moment for him. Same with Trunks seeing his father being beaten by Majin Buu but I actually think he should become SSJ when Vegeta sacrificed himself to try and stop Buu.
haha read about s-cells and I always thought it a poor reason why universe 6 sayians could reach ssj so easily but yeah it also does recon the children lol. though did the s-cells even make it into the show or manga of super? I don't remember them.
@@Alexander-the-Mediocre Don't know about the manga, pretty sure it didn't make it into the anime though. Us anime watchers unfortunately got that "tingly back" scene.
@@Alexander-the-Mediocre While S-Cells is not great, I'd at least be be more receptive to that as a scientific reason to explain SSJ then having the tingly back. lol
This arc would’ve succeeded if Goku stayed dead, Gohan remained the main character, if Piccolo became the Majinand fought Gohan, and if fusions were never introduced. This arc accelerated everything that is currently terrible about this franchise.
Ya it could have even made ssj3 better if Gohan was the first one to get the form, his potential had been built up for the entire series afterall. It would have been better than Goku whipping it out randomly
Gohan was the main character til the very end of the series, post him getting absorbed, and contrary to popular belief he was the main character since the beginning of dbz, but yes, Goku probably should have stayed dead.
The Buu Saga was my introduction to DBZ. I saw the other sagas first yes as random episodes on Toonami. The Buu Saga was the first Saga I saw full through. From Majin Vegeta, Ultimate Gohan etc. But the older I get and the more I watch the other Sagas I realize the Buu Saga is a rushed and disjointed mess. You can really tell Toriyama was kinda done with the franchise. Everything was random and made up as it went along. He brought Goku back in twice in one Saga due to fan demand, he botched Gohan and he sacked Vegeta. Vegeta honestly is the only character to get developed besides Good Buu and Hercule. Other than the fusions (which turned out to be a thrown in idea) the saga is a mess overall. The fusions must have been Toriyama's way of getting rid of the characters of Vegeta and Goku for a bit. Same with Goten and Trunks. It's my least favorite out of the three sagas in Z.
Toryiama has always written like this. The difference is, he's had good editors to reign in his nonsense, that's the reason the Android Arc was saved from doom. By the Buu Saga, all his classic era editors had retired or moved on to other projects, and he was so popular now that new editors were afraid to criticise his work, so he basically wrote whatever he wanted with no one stopping him or critiquing him and... this was the result.
@@kingp260 True, he was. I forget that it's technically its own Saga haha my bad. I literally just see it as Vegeta's backstory and the rest of the sagas as his redemption arcs.
Actually liked Goten in DBZ. He was a charming innocent kid with loads of potential. I liked the idea of the Buu saga being about the next generation of Z fighters (Gohan, Goten & Trunks). Now, GT and Super are a completely different story.
@@miguelanderson4116 First part was about how much of a loser Gohan is. Second part was about how much of a loser Gotenks is. Third part was about how badass Goku is.
Goten was the one that kept Trunks from going down the same path/developing the same personality as Vegeta. Trunks' personality sort of balances Vegeta and Goku, but its hard to justify Goku without adding a direct influence that would be Goten. Goten and Trunks while growing up pretty much balance each other out.
The first sentence is a really interesting point. I think of it sorta similar to the question of why Android 17 and 18 didn’t become like their future counterparts and a big reason for that I’d like to believe is because of Android 16. It’s the introduction of an anchor character to keep them from going down a certain path.
I honestly did like kid Trunk's attitude, it was a stark contrast because of the peaceful existence. Future Trunks was raised by Gohan, Kid Trunks was raised by Vegeta, which to me explains his personality.
@The Spell Alchemist Because Bulma was around in both timelines, the only change was Vegeta... Plus his attitude directly resembles Vegeta's just like how Future Trunk's attitude directly resembles Gohan's
I feel like the Buu arc would've been pretty good if it ended with Ultimate Gohan beating Buu, but tbf, had it not been extended (from fans in Japan wanting Goku to come back), then we would've never gotten Vegeta to come back and we definitely would've never gotten Vegito. Hate the Buu saga all you want, but you can't deny, it brought some pretty legendary moments and ideas to the franchise.
@@Facade953 yeah, and the "hyping up Gohan one moment just to throw him down the gutter the next" thing that started in the Buu saga just continued to get worse and more frequent througout Super; but in this case (Super) I think it had to do more with the fact that Toriyama for the most part would just write a couple a bullet points for each ark, send them to his staff/ animators (who sometimes would change from one episode to the next) and they would fill in the blanks as they pleased - the perfect recipe for a shit storm of characters' regression, contradictions with the established lore, inconsistencies within the plot and messed up power scalling IMHO
@@filipefigueiredo9847 Well tbf, Ultimate Gohan was actually supposed to get the job done. Gohan was actually supposed to be the successor after Goku and Vegeta died, but because fans wanted Goku to come back so much and because Toiryama didn't know how to write a story with Gohan (since he was more of a reactive protagonist while Goku is more of an active protagonist), he decided to not follow through with the whole Ultimate Gohan idea. So yes, Gohan actually was meant to beat Buu, that's why it was hyped up. Not to mention, the Buu saga is more messy since Toriyama's editor for the Frieza and Cell saga wasn't there anymore. The new editor Toriyama had (for the buu saga) was more lax and let Toriyama do his thing and have fun (since Toriyama was burnt out at the time). I honestly don't mind the story not ending with Ultimate Gohan though. Sure, it would've been a great conclusion to the whole entire series, but we would've never gotten freakin Ultra Instinct, Ultra Ego, Vegito, Gogeta (maybe not outside of fusion reborn at least), Beerus, SSG, SSB, SSJ4, the dbs Broly movie, and everything super and gt brought to the table. So I'm glad they decided to not keep Goku in otherworld and to not keep Vegeta permanently dead
I think the Buu saga was initially great from the start. Loved the great saiyaman and videl moments. Could've stayed as Gohan show. Just my thoughts I guess.
The Buu saga's problem summed up: overfocus on bad/boring/annoying characters who just came about (Gotenks, Buu himself, mr. Satan, the little dog, etc) and total negligence of many already classical, cool and loved characters (Piccolo, Tien, Yamcha, Krillin, etc). Akira basically recasted a good part of the show and much for the worse.
DBZ should've ended at cell, almost every character arc concluded at that point. It's a sad ending with what happened with Goku, but the Buu Saga completely ruined the Cell Games' importance to the story. But, I don't think Gohan should be Goku's "replacement", since he doesn't like fighting. It would've been fine if they just made a spin-off series of Gohan in high school and stuff like that. Also WHY did they do Piccolo and Tien so dirty 😭
There's just something so funny about Saiyan Scholar's earnest delivery. He doesn't read the lines with like a jokey intonation at all, he plays it completely straight but he still knocks me on my ass laughing when he says Videl is Goddamn Gohan DLC. Because that's deadass what she is. 😂😂😂
@@Jiron127 the buu arc got people believing kid buu is stronger than buuhan and buutenks and got people believing that ssj3 goku is stronger than ultimate gohan.
@@michealbanksjr.3630 It's not really complicated. Kid Buu was actually equal to SSJ3 Goku in terms of power but he had the advantage over him thanks to his healing factor and Goku's energy drain. Kid Buu was the most dangerous form because of his lack of intellect ( the reason Super Buu was begging Vegeta not to touch Majin Buu ) and his chaotic and sadistic nature.
I think Kid Trunks' personality makes sense. He isn't going to be humble and polite like his future counterpart, as future Trunks was raised solely by Bulma with Gohan acting as his father figure in a post apocalyptic world. Current timeline Trunks was raised by both Bulma and Vegeta in a time of peace so it makes sense that some of Vegeta's arrogant and entitled personality traits would rub off on him.
I think I got this idea for a fanfic back then. Gohan still hates fighting and then meets videl. Videl seems to enjoy the thrill of the fight and always strive to get stronger. There was a moment in my story where gohan asks why. She tells him that her mom was killed when she was a kid by a terrorist who targeted satan. She wanted to get stronger so she doesn't feel that same helplessness which gohan understand when goku died. Videl is the reason why gohan started to enjoy fighting.
Videl really is such a waste of a character. Honestly I think they had a huge untapped potential for her. The original DB's much more unique ki attacks. What if Videl through her human heritage and knowledge of how the body works could learn and expand on things like Roshi's (forgotten) electric attacks? She could be the gateway for human characters to become much more powerful through their ability to use Ki in strange ways... You know, things other than just blasts.
I think Pure Evil Buu should've been the main antagonist of the arc (which he technically was but I mean in his skinny gray form). There's so much you can do with the internal conflict thing, and you can use Majin Buu's fight with his evil half as a way to reflect on how so many characters like Vegeta, Piccolo, were once evil but then chose to fight the good fight and put in the work to atone for their sins.
@@TheFloodFourm and I’m not saying as it can’t be whatever they want I’m saying is that form even strong to be a main protagonist because it wasn’t in the anime
For Videl it's sucks that Toriyama just wasted her like that. I mean she could've been an awesome female z fighter where she would have her own goals and all. And consider she learn how to fly i would've like where Gohan or someone would also teaches her how to use ki attacks like the kamehameha for example like just think of the ki attacks that Videl could use in Dragon Ball games. It's like Toriyama doesn't know what to do with these female characters when he introduce them and all and just use them as housewives if must. Which isn't a bad thing i guess but you know, i guess Bulma is the only one who does something like inventing things and you know.
@Justin Arzola I don’t think there would have been a believe able way to make videl a viable fighter in the buu saga without it feeling like a cop out but I would have loved to see her do support things like hercule did when he helped in the fight against buu and continuing her training afterward
I personally enjoyed how Videl was written. At first she was stand offish & was rude to gohan, but once she found out he was the one who beat cell, patched her up w the senzu, & was told he died her real feelings came out which was great character development especially since she couldn't hide the fact that she loved him. I do agree she should of been a z fighter, I mean am I the only one who wants an episode of Videl teaching Mr. Satan how to fly lmfao XD
What is it with the fans' belief that every character that is introduced has to end up being a super strong warrior that can rival the Saiyans' fighting abilities?
Or he's a normal human being with the ability to think rationally and he realizes strong women martial artists is a stupid idea nobody cares to see outside of the US where feminism is trendy. Go watch batwoman
I disagree with that sector about Videl. She's just a human, bare-bones girl who doesn't have anything special. It wouldn't even make sense to put her as a protagonist since she wouldn't be able to beat any of the villains.
Buu may not have been best written but he was my fav villain. Only villain that got to the point. Blew up the earth . Just a kid but I was like FINALLY someone blew the dam planet up
I feel the main issue was Goten. It's understandable Gohan had lost power due to the lack of training and more focus on his studies; it's understandable for Videl not being able to jump right into the levels we recently got introduced; and it's possible Dabura was just over hyped for Babidi. But Goten affected both Gohan and Trunks, who were already an expected duo thanks to the whole future arc. Trunks would have been helping Gohan train, and even if they didn't reach high levels together, it would have been cool for Trunks to refer to Gohan as his master and surprise Vegeta, even if he can't turn into Super Saiyan yet. Him feeling Gohan's ki drop and knowing about Vegeta's sacrifice, as well as seeing Bulma (instead of Chichi) being turned into an egg or something would be pretty devasting and would be amazing for him to finally turn into a Super Saiyan. Piccolo, as the main master of Gohan, would have helped him train and learn some techniques like Special Beam Cannon or some psychic powers; and together they would be able to try and trap Buu in the Time Chamber or something like that. Not another SSJ3, not another fusion, not any broken power levels; just classic powers and techniques to trap Buu. Gohan would be able to beat Super Buu alone, but with both Piccolo and Trunks absorbed it would have been difficult for the power boost and the fear of hurting two very beloved friends. Then, Goku would have helped him by telling him everything would be fine, and the series would have been going as usual, with a little scene of Trunks making Vegeta proud with his new Super Saiyan form and new powers. Then, for a future series, Pan and Bura would have taken the place for the child in the series, and allow Teen Trunks to be a thing as in the future arc instead of giving us a questionable looking Trunks in Super.
other than introducing new transformations and gohans comeback the buu saga was nothing but constant trolling. The androids/cell saga was peak for me with all the chaos from the androids programming to hunt goku, cells programming to become perfect , super vegetas ego and the genius of goku understanding gohans full potential to surpass everyone during that time.
@Masenko Gohan was just a plot device from rusty gohan (drawing out the henchmen to revive fat buu) to ultimate gohan (introducing buu han and vegito). They knew about absorption after buu tenks lost fusion power but fell for the okie doke as usual to kick off buu han vs vegito
@Masenko Umm vegeta was a plot device thats how cell got to his perfect form.........Goku wasnt the plot device it was android 16 was which is why gohan went ss2 after 16 was crushed thats the only reason 16 was kept around. Thats not nonsense thats what advances the story for it to continue not flat out end....lmao. I said they knew about absorption after buu tenks key word "after". Goku was fighting along side gohan when buu tenks lost fusion meaning they knew about absorption yet gohan still got absorbed because.... he was "PLOT DEVICE". lol. Dont need advising when I can comprehend how story progression works. I'd advise you to look up the meaning of plot device carefully and more thoughtfully then apply it to your comment
Main problem for me was how Goku hijacked Gohan’s story. Know a lot of people preferred Goku to remain MC but I believe you should sleep in bed you made and felt it hurt Z’s theme of Legacy.
Despite this saga not being the greatest one, thanks to those questionable things, we can't deny that the final battle was very intense, the setting, the villain, two characters that started as enemies now work together as a team, everyone doing their part by giving their energy for the Spirit Bomb, all while they're giving the tension for how long will survive Vegeta, Mr Satan and Mr Buu, also, the Dragon Balls were crucial for the victory, thanks to Shenron by reviving everyone from earth (except for the evil ones), and Porunga by restoring earth and Goku's energy to throw the final blow P.D. I love how you are using some pics from Kakarot
Huh, no one has ever mentioned Uub... I wanted to know some thoughts about him since I think he is kind of forgotten... Technically he was in the DBZ ending...
When I was younger I actually really liked Goten. I think it was because I picked him in the Bodokai games. Strangely I'm not huge on Gotenks, I always wanted to see kid trunks develop into a different character from future trunks - maybe more of a bad boy as he got older? I was actually hyped at one time to see what goten would turn into too. I still kinda like goten but you're right about him having no purpose and no character development at all. Maybe you don't agree but I still think there was potential to do something cool with goten.
I'm glad you mentioned Wrath of the Dragon, I remember watching it on repeat as a kid because I thought SSJ3 and the Dragon Fist were the sickest things ever
Thank you for reminding me multiple times in this video that this was the fault of the writers and not the fictional characters who aren’t real for these things to happen in the fictional series. Thank you for reminding me multiple times because I often forget how things work.
The Buu saga is my second favorite saga cause of all the cool stuff that happened: Goku coming back, Vegeta going Majin, SS2 Goku v SS2 Vegeta, Vegeta's final atonement, SUPER SAIYAN 3 GOKU, the multiple forms of Buu, ULTIMATE GOHAN (Which is who should've beaten buu in my opinion), Gotenks, SS3 Gotenks, Goku coming back again, VEGITO HIMSELF, and the battle against kid buu, the best part about this saga is it doesn't drag on SLOWLY (Like with a certain time point on a certain green planet with a certain main character that spent 20 to 30 episodes in a healing tank or like how a certain whole first saga of the show takes forever for the main threat to arrive) this saga and the Android saga are the two best sagas cause while it can be slow, there's always something interesting happening to pass the time while you watch each episode.
This Saga was my first exposure to DBZ on Toonami. I remember seeing a man with blonde hair beating the sh!t out of this pink blob man At least that's how I would describe it as a child
This review really helped me get my frustrations out of my chest regarding the Boo saga. I only liked the Boo saga because I was a teen and Dragonball was almost like a religion for me. Those characters were part of my upbringing. They were my friends when I had no friends. But as an adult I see how terribly flawed this saga was. Akira Toriyama is creative but he often makes dreadfully bad decisions that destroy his own franchise: Goten: I also tried liking Goten. I thought “if he is there, he must serve a good purpose to the story”. But no! Only later I found out that in Japan writers are required to fill a certain quota of kid characters so as for kids to relate to them. 😒. It was fine with Gohan, we actually saw character development in him. But Goten was just a mockery of Gohan and Goku. Both worked so hard into being the warriors they became. And then this bratty kid just easily turns super saiyan? 😒. Kid Super Saiyans: First of all, Akira forgot to put tails in them. That’s hardly forgivable, but let’s move on! They should have just stayed in the sidelines just like the krillin, Yamcha and Tien were. Because they were too weak; so let the adult saiyans do the job. After all, a villain worse than Cell is about to destroy the world. But corporate decisions demand that kid characters that kid characters get screen time and be protagonists. They really were a mockery of what the Saiyan transformations meant to us all. (I am glad in the end they were realistic and made Gotenks fail and let Goku and Vegeta take care of everything). Maybe the Goten, Trunks and Gotenks characters didn’t get the popularity that writers expected. Majin Boo: he was supposed to be the most bad ass villain of all. He was a primordial demon created by a sorcerer, and the guardian gods (kaioshin) of the universe couldn’t contain him. Then suddenly this fat funny cheery being appears! 😓. Maybe Toriyama likes to turn down our expectations! 😒. Dabura: a wasted potential. Not only that but the concept of a demon world in Dragonball is also a wasted potential. I had a Dabura action figure and my mom actually thought the toy was cursed because he looked like the devil 😅. Conclusion: Toriyama almost destroyed his own creation with bad decisions in the boo saga. But he did finish the job with the bad decisions in Dragonball Super 😢.
I've never cared for this arc....its terrible. None of the transformatiom meant anything other than just doing them. I agree that it's brought down the series.
Dude, when you started talking about Kid Trunks potentially having been the only kid character in the Buu saga (so, no Goten) it surprised me how I'd never considered how much of a missed opportunity that was. We already know Trunks (or *a* Trunks at least) and expect him to live up to those expectations, and so do the characters in the show. They're not supposed to mention his "other self" from the future, but obviously, he inevitably picks it up from eavesdropped conversations and such. The burden this would place on him and the unique scenario of not being able to live up to a future version of yourself you *know* would have existed, would have made for some really interesting character development and storytelling. Not to mention the potential for a natural mentor-student relationship to form between him and Gohan (even without the android-related circumstances) perhaps even in spite of Bulma trying to prevent this due to her wanting this Trunks to be his own, different person. Could have made for a nice cathartic end-of-saga moment with this Trunks actually being able to *save* Gohan, and in a way surpass the other Trunks he was so worried about living up to! Regardless of whether you agree with my own specific (let's just call it what it is) fanfiction of how this would play out, I think you can agree, it has fantastic potential. Instead, we got Gotenks and the Buu saga. Yay.
Dude i hope your channel blows up with popularity! I just got here from watching your video essay on why Dragon ball super sucks, and your breakdowns and honesty without the rose tinted glasses makes this so easy to relate to because I always hated the pacing and character nerfs that the Buu Saga had. Like the ratio of every moment that was as good as "vegata's atonement" to moments of "vegeta and goku playing osmosis jones" is like 1:8
You’re right about the way Videl was Introduced versus how she became later on… but it isn’t the first time Toriyama screwed over a strong female character (other than Bulma), Launch got relegated to a filler episode and cameo in Z cuz Toriyama forgot about her in the manga. Chi Chi at the end of Dragon Ball was an interesting potential female fighter character, but then relegated to the overbearing mother character for laughs… and then Videl…
Super Saiyan 3 had one of the simplest concepts imaginable and they somehow messed it up. Probably the most frustrating aspect of it. Goku is supposed to use super saiyan 3 to turn the tide in a fight and quickly lose energy to maintain the form, yet still leave the enemy badly injured. That's it. No excuses about how difficult it is to draw. No. It shouldn't even last long enough for that. Unfortunately though, every main character was going to fight Buu and to have Goku's super saiyan 3 form be one of the earliest was far too early. Especially since they ended up being forced to extend the Buu Saga beyond what they intended. But Goten? Goten was great, idk why you didn't like him. He was a cute comic relief character who was just different enough from kid Goku for everyone to enjoy with fresh eyes, it's not hard to see why. He rarely got in the way of other character's progression and he did a good job being the new kid while Gohan takes on a more adult role.
You know this actually makes a lot more sense to why Dragon Ball Super is complete Garbage when it comes to its story and why GT is superior. DBGT takes place after the "End Of Z" arc and DBS Takes place right after the Buu Saga. It all makes sense now.
I like dragon ball multiverse's take on the videl character, in a world where Saiyans aren't there to protect the Earth, she became the toughest warrior that has ever been, able to wield the Z sword, and using the kaioken, which should have been a given to every warrior that have trained with king Kai.
The ending of kid buu should have been Vegeta watching Goku's spirit bomb being deflected back at Goku; realizing that Goku was going to die. He then feels desperate, digging deep inside and yells the name Goku instead of Kakarot. His best friend and rival is about to die, and if they fail, the death of their friends and families would stick. He already swallowed his pride when he declared Goku the strongest, and his humility and anger has him undergo his personal ssj3 transformation. By the time his transformation is complete, Goku is about to be hit by the SB. Vegeta then flies in front of Goku and uses all his new power to deflect the spirit bomb back towards Buu. Symbolizing that he is now pure hearted enough to deflect the spirit bomb, which kills Buu.
I thought spirit bomb only worked on evil individuals, as stated by King Kai, when he taught it to Goku, as well as Krillin, when they fought Vegeta in Saiyan Saga.
Nostalgia is the word here. It is pretty much the only reason why Dragonball is even held in high regard by so many people even today. But when you actually look deeper Dragonball has not aged well at all, especially compared to many of its successors.
Good day scholar.I find myself infinitely entertained by your content although this video reminds me of one I saw from you the other day 🤣.. excellent points as usual though man...I like your idea about dabura and agree the potential storywise and fights we could have gotten ESP when he would decide to team up with zfighters would be EPIC...and lmao bro you are hilarious..I swear a goddamn DBZ standup comedian 😂👏
The Buu Saga had the strongest start in the entire series. It was full of fresh ideas, new, enjoyable characters, and Gohan was taking charge in the plot before the tournament, the actual only time you get a glimpse into his post adolescent life. Vegeta's character arc... Goku and Vegeta's rematch is hands down the best fight I've seen in DBZ. You see Vegeta being a father to young Trunks, you see everyone taking care of business without Goku around, gaining new respect for these past characters, but the writers took their foot off the gas. I think they just didn't plan out how all of it would come to a close, and it's a shame it all imploded in the end.
I've never really thought about it that critically before but yeah, fuck, driving more energy and focus towards Videl as her own character could've made for some way more interesting and impactful plotlines than what we got. Even though I'm a bit late to the party here, mostly enjoyed this vid man Imma check out the rest of your stuff.
I disagree. If it weren’t for the Buu Saga, I would’ve never been attracted to Dragon Ball Z or the franchise as a whole… or anime for that matter. It was my gateway to all of it.
The buu arc felt like a forceful way to make it so goku becomes the mc again and in the cell arc it should have stayed with the whole gohan becomes the main character but it’s the goku and sometimes vegeta show!
Toriyama is amazing at making characters grow and then instantly sidelining them for Goku and vegeta
Their growth is just a set up for selling how amazing and cool hair can look.
He really only did it in the Buu Saga, Super is 90% toyotaro and toei.
I wish I had a source for this, but I remember reading that when he was writing the manga, Toriyama tried so damned hard to kill off Goku and put the spotlight on Gohan, until his editor sat Toriyama down and told him if he killed Goku, the publishers would drop the manga entirely. Goku apparently makes Mickey-Mouse-levels of money, and they didn't want to lose the golden goose.
@@SableZardYT That explains how Goku died a million times but always came back like it was nothing. Death is a joke in DB. Anyway that's what I find most characteristic about him and it is ridiculous.
@@paulgoogol2652 Goku has literally only died twice and the second time he stayed dead for 7 years 🤦♂
The sudden change in direction with Gohan is what ruined it for me. They spent several episodes with his training and building up his arc as a "chosen" by the Kais, but then he falls short because of an issue he already once faced fighting Cell. It felt more like a cop-out than a flaw considering Gohan was more experienced with failure than most. I still believe it was a behind the scenes decision to prop Goku up as the main hero towards the end because Goku/Vegeta sells more to viewers than Gohan. It's no coincidence Vegeta and Goku both get resurrected within the same two episodes.
Well Goku is the lead character so that would make sense. By doing that however they ruined Gohan so I hope it was worth it for them.
Many fans hated the idea of Gohan being the main character. This just ruined Gohan
Toriyama messed up Gohan well before that. The second Videl gets her shit stomped in the tournament is the second Gohan’s own story completely vanishes from the spotlight.
@@TheUnseenPath He was the lead character until you got an arc’s worth of Gohan being a Tokusatsu hero
@@kyleyang4711 That’s false. It’s been a known thing for awhile now that Toriyama just didn’t know what to do with Gohan. Because he’s not a story teller, he’s a gag writer. There’s a reason his story starts to tank during DBZ, and it’s because he wasn’t copying Journey to the West anymore
what is wrong with you
Everything
TRUE
hope the yugioh doc is going well good man
😂
Yes
I've always kind of felt like Piccolo fusing with Kami was pointless. He gets this huge powerup and becomes the strongest character for a very brief period of time and then immediately becomes irrelevant (power-wise) for the rest of the series.
And to an extent his fusion with Nail as well. Piccolo fighting Frieza was just filler
@@dougtheghoul2845 i wouldn't call it filler, when he fought frieza in his 2nd form it was actually pretty cool to see piccolo fucking trample him. It was also a setup for his 3rd form
@@dougtheghoul2845 piccolo fought Frieza in the manga so it’s not filler
That's because, and everyone hates me for shitting on the show, despite it being one of my favorite childhood cartoons, it's shit writing didn't even come close to starting in the Buu Saga. While the Buu Saga is especially bad, Dragonball Z is not the paragon of narration some people pretend it to be. It is constantly breaking its own rules, it's power scailing is so out of control that it the gold standard to just write characters stronger and then figure out just how much stronger later. The devices used for such power increases are also sloppily written at best. Goku goes from a power level from 180,000 vs Ginuy, but is in one fight and manages to power up to 3,000,000. Why? Because they wanted Freeza to be impossibly strong and they were literally throwing out numbers for power levels back then. That's why we have power levels in the gozillian range. So they wanted Freeza to be so strong, it's a pipe dream to be able go defeat him at best, even when Goku shows up. Well they're already in the hundred thousands. Well, let's transform him and say he's at a million and just scale Goku up from there. Wait, you want to transform him some more? But he's already at a million! ANOTHER ONE ON TOP OF THAT? AND YOU WANT THAT TO BE 1% OF HIS POWER?!?!?! You realize Goku should be at 300,000 maximum... right? Oh, you don't care about the numbers, just make it happen? Hmm... maybe I should have come up with an actual scale instead of coming up with numbers out my butt. Too late now.
Only that all takes place in Toriyamas head, because he doesn't think about shit until he's forced to address the details. Even after DECADES of the show and Manga being popular around the world, Super is even worse! He doesn't consider the implications of making characters stronger and so he just does it on a whim. The the fans ask for power levels or just exactly HOW strong is this new form is. Even then fans will come up with a theory and he'll pretty much say yes to the one that fits the best. How strong is Super Sayian? Oh, well this one guy calculated that Goku would need to be 50x stronger... so that's how strong it is. This guy says Gohan would need be at least twice as strong as a Full Powere Super Sayian, so let's go with that.
Now we have gods and Deatroyers, and Ultra Instinct Kaioken times 50 bojillian Super Sayian Rainbow level 12 because Toriyama wants it to be like Yu-Gi-Oh where people need to find clever solutions to win, but he also wants people to know who's the strongest person at all times. No, Buu isn't scary because he's a pink blob mobster who can't seem to die. He's also REALLY super strong. No, Cell doesn't rely on the techniques of the fighters that make up his core, or that he has infinite regeneration. Those aren't the scary bits. The scary bit is that he's SUUUUPER strong. But Gohan has mad he can use. Gohan uses mad and now he's stronger. He doesn't have the fights he wants but he still writes like they are and disregards all the things he needs to write the fights like they actually are.
I never understood the power scaling in DBZ. It all became so blurred and meaningless. And it didn’t help that all the villains could all blow up an entire planet effortlessly. It’s like, ok what can this new dude do differently that the previous villain couldn’t? And why are the heroes now suddenly struggling when they’ve had this song and dance several times before?
I think Videl could've served a bigger role on revitalizing Gohan's drive and love of fighting alongside Piccolo.
As for Kid Trunks, I actually like him being a spoiled brat considering him being born to a multimillion dollar family and business while being the direct descent of Saiyan royalty. His character arc could be him learning how to overcome his ego, learning to respect his peers and opponents, and growing into a proper man -- something Vegeta himself didn't have growing up.
More is ok for him spoiled just imagine his true future.
I’d like if he embraced Vegetas dark side of his bloodline
This is a 100% my vegeta fanboy coming out so I’m not even gonna deny it lol, but imo the buu saga was fantastic all the way to vegetas sacrifice but after that I feel like everything becomes such a big mess a fun mess with good moments but still a big mess
You got an epic username
Yup. Next level.
What does imo means ?
You sound like a mess
@@adriel88_ it means "in my opinion"
I personally think that it makes sense that Kid Trunks is so different compared to his future self. Future Trunks grew up in an apocalyptic world where not only did all of its defenders had been killed by the androids but the human population was in a constant decline because of a force that couldn't be stopped or reasoned with. The only one around to protect his world was Gohan and even he ended falling in the end.
Kid Trunks on the other hand grew up in a peaceful world where not only are all of its defenders alive and well but there wasn't a constant threat in the background which meant that Kid Trunks could actually take his time to enjoy being a kid and make friends like Goten. Future Trunks became who he was because of necessity while present Trunks didn't have all that baggage to mold him like his future self. Because of this I think it's a little unfair to expect Kid Trunks to turn out just like his future self when there are so many different factors present that would obviously effect his personality and growth.
i will say kid trunks could have had his annoying traits trimmed back a bit. but yeah. you're right.
Goes the same for future gohan and buu saga gohan lol
Toriyamas crazy ass once suggested that future trunks was the son of Yamcha which is why he had the sword, the friendly attitude, and the good hairline.
I thought the only reason why future trunks was so friendly was because he grew up with Gohan, while kid trunk grew up with his father.
I don't think it just trunks being different thats the issue...its that future trunks struggled and feels like he earned his power. Kid trunks kinda just craps all over that.
The Buu saga was definitely the result of Toriyama’s writing fatigue getting the best of him. While his art was phenomenal throughout the arc, you can definitely feel like his motivation and enthusiasm wasn’t nearly on the same level as the other sagas
That and part of the deal for him continuing was that he'd get to do whatever he wanted, effectively without an editor.
Hence, no one to check him on all the pointless build-up. An editor might've forced him to either cut back Gotenks's time in the spotlight, or forced him to do a more even fight between Gohan and Buutenks, or maybe even Goku is the one who gets absorbed and thus his sons have to indirectly fight him.
The art wasn't phenomenal, at least in the manga. Just compare panels from the Namek/Frieza saga vs Buu saga ones and it's clear he was so done by that point. I do have to agree the art and animation was phenomenal during the Buu saga in DBZ
And then Super made the Buu saga look like an underrated gem
There are three main issues that stopped me from enjoying Dragon Ball entirely after the Frieza saga, which would be:
1- Emphasis on power levels instead of martial arts, which was initially the core of the series.
2- Resurrection, which is, honestly, an issue I've had with this franchise at it's core. I don't like the trope resurrection in fiction, it ruins everything and kills all tension and sacrifices.
3- Only the Saiyans matter, and eventually only Goku and Vegeta. I hate how all the other characters are sidelined, I'd rather having them killed off instead of all the deaths Goku and the other resurrected characters have had, just so Toriyama had real reasons to focus on the characters he obviously likes the most.
Apart from that, this was a cool video and this franchise is really fun to experience
So you have a problem with Resurrection but made it to the Frieza saga? Goku was killed in the first handful of episodes in Z. How did you make it to the frezia saga
@@DarknessFlameMedia Probably because dying was still meaningful and in the Frieza arc there was no dragon balls from Earth to save your ass (which was the whole point of going to Namek after Vegeta and Frieza anyway). Also, really, when you grow up as a kid watching certain series you don't ask such a question, cause it's obvious why somebody would still watch Dragon Ball, it's OUR damn series.
The 3rd issue happen after the Cell saga though and the dragon balls were gone for most of that arc too
@@DarknessFlameMedia You are looking it through today's eyes, remember that in that time there was only 1 set of Dragon Balls, so you could only resurrect once and never again, to be honest Goku dying in the first 5 episodes was great, because that was his only resurrection shot, every fight after he could not die or it would be permanent.
Then Namek happened, while you could have more Dragon Balls, they should have kept the: "You can only resurrect once" regardless of the set you use, would have solved the problem.
Wait...after frieza saga? That was "pivotal power gap with numbers" issue the entire start. Just say after dragonball. It got so convoluted beyond that it was just powe gaps. Saiyan saga at least krillins destructo disc still wouldve chopped nappas head...
" Fight you?
No. I'm going to kill you" is still one of the hardest lines of the entire series.
And he didn't deliver lol
To this day I couldn’t help but feel Goten’s character was pointless. He’s just there for Trunks to have a buddy and do fusion with, that’s about it.
agree, they should had continued with gohan-trunks big bro-little bro relationship
Goten is an awful character and annoyed me in every scene. Total bad rip off of kid Goku, kid Goku and Gohan were likeable at least and didn't pul SSJ out of their backside.
I only like Goten on that Broly Movie with Family Kamehameha and shit.
True. Well, besides the sense of urgency he had when watching Chi Chi get killed then went hard as hell in the time chamber, that is. That was a pretty cool showing from him. But besides that, yeah, he wasn’t much.
Trunks sucks in this too he’s a whiny brat.
Future Trunks was the GOAT
The first part of the buu saga is incredible. Finally getting that long awaited rematch between Goku and Vegeta, Vegeta turning evil again and murdering thousands of people. But then seeing his character arc finally get the closure he deserved when he is confronted by what he actually loved most. Not power, or being the strongest, but his family (Trunks and Bulma). And then finally sacrificing his life to try to save those he cared about most.
Would be incredible if the following events didn’t utterly ruin it
And after this is just a bunch of "nopes"
Vegeta sacrifice was usefull? Nope
Super saiyan 3 will kill buu? Nope
Gotenks will kill buu? Nope
Majin buu will turn good? Nope
And so continues
@@shawerful5209 vegito will kill buu? Nope
Ultimate Gohan will kill buu? Nope
@@Fuk99999 so true, I describe the buu saga as a really fun mess. The story is so messy, but we got Super Saiyan 3, Vegito, Gotenks, Ultimate Gohan, seeing Goku and Vegeta fight together. It had so many amazing moments to be fair.
Even a not fruitful sacrifice could feel real, give you emotions. Like in Sayian arc, with deaths of Chaotzu, Tien, Yamcha. We as viewer just not given enough time to feel sorrow for Vegeta, and following setup is shit. It s like "did Vegeta just died?" "Uhha, haha" - Buu laughs. Any another character don't care about it, not Goku, not any z-fighter, not even Bulma. They cared more during Vegeta fighting vs Cell!
The worst part of it in my opinion is gohan, the cell saga promised too much for him and he is just left out of everything
His biggest achievment in the saga was literraly becoming the great saiyaman, he did nothing else, he just fought dabura, fought super buu and that is it for him
@@Legomilho yup all because hes not goku and goku fans would bitch if goku wasnt in the show despite the show really supposed to be more gohans time and adventures rather than gokus lol
The Cell Saga ending with Goku sacrificing himself for his son and the Earth and passing the torch to Gohan was the perfect ending to the series imo.
@@koltensmith3974 actually it’s because toriyama himself admitted that he couldn’t write Gohan as a main protagonist because he liked goku too much.
@@kirklanyoshinaga8953 never read or heard or even saw toriyama admit to that
I'll never forgive what they did to Gohan. Gohan is a very selfless person who is shown willing to fight and die for those he loves. Just because someone "doesn't like fighting" doesn't mean they wouldn't devote their life to a cause.
"WOOPS HURPDEDURP! DROPPED THA POTARAS!"
He literally never trained unless someone was forcing him to do it. You never liked him as a character if you can't get over the fact that he is not someone who ever wants to gain power. The fact that they keep boosting him back to the top is what you should be mad about. He should be krillin tier
@@DarknessFlameMedia I agree he shouldn't get the asspulls he gets. I just want him to be relevant in other ways, but this is, IMO a weakness of Toriyama's inability to create character relevancy outside of whoever simply trains the most and has the most brute strength. Maybe Gohans brains and inquisitive side could lead him to be interested in gaining a more scientific understanding of Ki. His acutely natural attunement to Ki could lead him into a joint project with Bulma to understand Ki as an energy source and it's potential applications, maybe one of them being some device which applies its user with a power multiplier.
Gohan caught like 5 bullets shot out of a gun at the start of this arc.
Then hurr dur cant catch
@@DarknessFlameMedia he should still train
@@DarknessFlameMedia"Unless he was forced"
Who forced him to go to Namek?
Who forced him to train whit Piccolo and Goku for 3 yrs?
Who forced him to go into the time chamber?
Gohan was ONLY forced when Piccolo kidnapped him at 4.
At that point he LITERALLY wanted to become stronger every time he could.
The thing is, Gohan is not like Goku who finds purpose in life through fighting, but Gohan was NEVER forced to do anything.
He ACTIVELY did it.
The one time he was reluctant was against Cell.
The boo saga holds most of my memories and nostalgia for the show. Back when I was watching one episode at a time. Never ever though of it like this as a kid. And the way boo kept evolving blew my mind!
The Buu saga introduced:
1. Super Saiyan 3
2. Gotenks
3. Ultimate Gohan
4. Vegito
And what defeats Buu? A SPIRIT BOMB
@Justin Arzola At least the Buu saga ending with the evil kid Buu successfully destroyed and the Dragon Team winning the day.
The Zamasu arc in super however ending in tragedy when Zamasu consumed the whole future universe and killed those survivors and Goku summoning Zeno to erase the future timeline to get rid of Zamasu. It was only a loss for Future Trunks because Goku & Vegeta still had their timeline to live in. Future Trunks on the other hand was forced to go into a new timeline to live in.
@Justin Arzola Super Saiyan Goku actually
What's wrong with that?
And what's wrong with that?
The power of friendship
I loved the Buu saga as a kid mainly because of fusions but now that I’m older and went back thru the whole series, the Buu saga was a big ass mess of a saga compared to previous ones
I rewatched the entire show during quarantine and tbh the buu saga was fun until buu came. After that it just felt like one long fight where no one can’t do shit. Too many forms and transformations for both the protagonist and the antagonist.
@@el_bambino4804 I rewatched the buu saga a couple years ago and looking back on it the first half was okay but when buu came along and gotenks in his SSJ3 form were a hot mess
might not be as good as the previous 2, but still way way way way way better than all DB,DBS,DBGT sagas combined
I was the same when I was younger. I saw the Buu saga as the best. As I've gotten older, the Cell Saga is the best now. And the Buu Saga is like the "fun" but not good saga
Buu saga >>> DBS
Thank you for talking about videl. The way they disrespected her character, such a shame. She had potential to be my favorite character, they ruined her.
I have so much respect for you. The fact that you are a Dragon ball fan is fucking amazing.
Not only Videl, actually. Unfortunately, it seems that Toriyama can't write female characters for too long, because they all end up either forgotten (like Launch), or tossed aside; becoming nothing more than housewives to the main characters...,
Just look at Videl, Chi-Chi, Bulma, Mai, #18, etc... This trend is all over Dragon Ball and it's a shame, really.
Spopovich ruined her lol
@@kakarotblack5985 Not really, that fight actually made her, it established her as a tough badass who would still fight no matter how outmatched she was. She was still awesome and kicking ass even after that fight, even having the attitude to step up to Buu. What ruined her was everything that happened after the defeat of Buu.
@@Crow-qm7zw it was still a fucking mollywhopping yeah she tough but still got her ass beat lol
I think what I especially hated was how short the fighting tournament got cut
In the original dragon ball, there were three different tournaments and every one was crazy fleshed out
In the buu saga, there's this whole build up to the tournament then it's just cut short to get on with the story
Then at the end some guy named ubb pops up and goku like I'm about to trial. Him smh
The core problem with Buu Saga is that it's directionless. None of these things would be problems if the story was planned out.
From the way Toriyama talks about it the return of Goku seems to have really messed up the original plan.
Yeah he was making it on the fly..
Kinda sucks how Videl learned to fly and even formed a small energy ball in her hands but never continued. She could have learned to fire actual ki blasts and fly at faster speeds.
to be fair how far that would have gotten her ? just to be irrelevant like krillin and tien ? why bother
Agreed. I liked teen videl, she could have continued training and take on crime by herself or along side saiyaman. Can you imagine videl chasing lunch? While lunch fires a machine gun at her. Fun little moments like that are gone.
@@WiiSage At least they had arcs.
That will be boring, who wanna see videl training arc ? Honestly, she gonna be the female version of krillin, completely useless
Spopovich Gave her such a beating that she changed lol
I actually liked Goten in GT.
He was a teenager doing normal stuff like going on dates and not wanting to train but when the chips are down he goes to fight evil with the rest of z warriors.
It was just a shame we never got to see adult Gotenks in GT
I thought gotens whole point was to be gotenks
I like him in gt as well
Basically gohan… in between cell Saga and buu saga
He was actually an adult by gt lol
This may not be a popular opinion but Cell should have been the final villain to DBZ. It would make sense since he was the ultimate creation who carried the genes of Goku, Vegeta, Gohan, Piccolo, Krillin, Yamcha, Tien, Chiaotzu, Frieza, and King Cold. The Z fighters themselves were basically going off against a being who was basically the walking manifestation of how far they have come throughout the entire franchise in terms of power scaling and strength progression.
Ive been saying this for years. Cell feels like a true climax. I like to think Akira toriyama thinks the same because a cell like figure is the final boss of not one but at least two jrpgs he has worked on. Those being chrono trigger and dragon quest 11.
@@Yoshiedude you guys do understand the cell saga was supposed to be the final arc of DBZ right? He feels like the final boss cause he was GOING TO BE
in my eyes it ends with the cell saga
the rest that comes after it is fanservice tbh
Cell was originally the end of DBZ... Goku was suppose to stay dead and the torch gets passed onto Gohan.
@@oogaboogie Freiza saga was actually supposed to be the final arc. Toriyama was forced to do the Cell saga. Its why Super Saiyan went from legendary, to everyone being one etc
Videl could’ve used her fame and wealth to teach people how to use ki control and make it main stream. improve their society to the point ki is a necessity. Characters like Vegeta probably would grew to love teaching the next generation
Unlikely.
Vegeta cannot be allowed to grow out of his obssesive pride.
Even tho he becoming a master would make him fully realized as a character.
@@streptococo4735 it wouldn’t make sense that his pride would interfere in wanting to make the people defend themselves
Since Hercule helped redeem Majin Buu, I think it would help if Videl lent a hand to redeem Buu as well alongside her father. And during it she slowly makes Hercule come out to tell the truth to his fans
The videl part hurts the most I think. I really took a liking to Videl and to see this tough chick be reduced to furniture was just sad, a waste of potential that could have seen her be the strongest human fighter and a tag-team with Gohan, she could have gone Ultimate as well and... god just thinking about it is depressing. On a related note another waste of potential was the scrapped design for SSJ3 where it had the golden tail. That should have been kept in my opinion to further bridge the gap between 3, golden great ape, and finally SSJ4.
Yes vide fighting majin buu totally believable
@@joshuaguevara1309 Right? Such a terrible take
@@joshuaguevara1309 Remember it was Yajirobe who stopped great ape Vegeta, Tien who blasted Cell to within an inch of his life, and Mr Satan who made it possible for Goku to beat Kid Buu. You only think that way because you've been conidtioned to by the writers. I'm no saying Videl should solo Buu but she could have done a lot more than become a cheerleader.
@@monkeybone1080 you are using established characters whose involvement was foreshadowed and what they did at the moment was believable for them , the tien one is still really iffy but I see why people like it. Not a brand new character barley learning to concentrate ki , who’s purpose is to fight - fighting against beings super saiyan 3 still wasn’t enough for.
its not conditioning it’s logic.
You guys want to throw it out.
Ironically that’s what they did in super and it’s one of the worst things about it
@@joshuaguevara1309 You're still not getting it. Not once did I state that she should be on the same level and certainly not straight away, you're assuming I want her to 1v1 kid Buu or something which is nonsense, all I was saying is that she should have been training right along side Gohan the whole time and being able to compete to some level, she still won't be able to match a Saiyan obviously but having her actually participate and even swerve a few times would be far better than what we got because I don't know about you but I'd like to see a return to some outside characters actually doing something for once.
I love the Buu saga it's just that I personally don't see it as good as an arc as Frieza or cell so I agree.
Chill
@@quanmfsanchez411 th-cam.com/video/yytbDZrw1jc/w-d-xo.html
I believe Buu was far better than cell saga, vegeta was too ignorant and allowed cell to absorb 18, cell was too cocky to blow up the earth, and goku gave his villian a senzu bean and made his son fight for him, what a stupid idea for an arc
It objectively isn’t as good as Frieza. Cell and Buu are both bad, just different levels of bad
The cell saga sucks..it's forced how he gets there...I like cell a lot as a concept but before freeza...not after
my favorite thing about the arc was vegeta's development. vegeta, goku and piccolo have all mellowed out. Goku thinks about the world he's no longer a part of, how to teach his sons to look after it because he wont be there forever. He enjoys a good fight but doesnt let his boner for fighting cloud his mind like in Super for example. Gotenks as a kid was pretty damn cool. As an adult, i cannot tolerate him that long. Gohan fumbles a victory that was basically handed to him. Toriyama didnt seem to be able to make up his mind
Gohan fumbles a victory? I thought the issue with this Saga was that his victory was robbed
@@mooganify in story he fumbled. In our world, toriyama robbed him of it yes
@@mooganify he means toriyama didn’t know what to do with gohan after defeating cell 7 years prior to the buu saga
Gohan beating Buu wouldn' have been a good ending either because it would be right after he got a power up just given to him.
His analysis about Videl being a potential reform to Mr. Satan's family reputation was amazing! My dude made me think of possibilities I never imagined!
I like Goten a lot, especially when he's playing around with Trunks. The series needs a break from the constant seriousness or it gets incredibly boring.
Him and Trunks playing also reminds us of the reason *why* saving everyone is so important. Hammering 'villain will destroy the earth' into our heads over and over again with nothing to ground us there is worthless.
The problem is his only character trait is that he’s trunks best buddy and gohan and goku’s family member. That’s it. They don’t do nothing with him but to be kid trunks damn sidekick
I agree with just about everything you mention here, especially making trunks and goten make original SSJ look like a joke. Then they reach ssj3? When I was younger I thought that was cool, another SSJ3 in the saga, but now I realize it is kind of lacking in feeling. Goku's SSJ3 is phenomenal, but Gotenks has no emotion to it.
Tbh as cool as ssj3 is to me, I won’t lie that even as form, it was already kinda lacking in feeling in it of itself.
The dude here already made a pretty good case as to why on its own. But i think people like totally not mark and mistarfusion also pointed out and added more to it on how pretty much functions like a jumpscare; Something designed more to shock you in the moment but leave little impact after the fact.
Most think 3 is cool af, but its kinda crazy to me in retrospect how the THIRD form of super saiyan isn’t held in as memorable and high regard compared to the first too.
And like the video says, the circumstances on which the form itself was made was already pretty much set up to fail and have little impact given the circumstances of when, why and how it was being used in the series.
Even though toriyama writes out his ass a lot, I don’t think people can deny that the journey to goku and gohan getting their forms certainly fit and felt earned and wasn’t just an entirely random thing that happened and was quickly discarded.
Super saiyan had 2 arcs, but its signifcance persists all the way into super.
2 at least had the rear end of the cell saga.
3 had one moment to shine in its own arc and nothing else after it 💀
I feel like every new transformation in super is lacking in feeling.
GT is where super Saiyan 3 shines
Hell the What If forms of Super Saiyan 3 in Vegeta from Raging Blast 1 and 2 looks more true to the form then what Gotenks did to it.
@@isaiahmackey8731 lol no
It's quite the testament to Z when this arc, which had SO MANY fan favorite concepts and moments, is the worst of the series. It shows how amazing the show is as a whole and how good the other arcs are. And even then, like you said it's still a very enjoyable arc despite it being the worst of the main arcs in Z. I feel like it set up the formula for largely what Dragon Ball is today: Tons of epic moments and sequences, but they don't have as much impact on the overall story as they should.
The whole arc was seemingly written as a one big joke tbh, seemed like Toriyama was tired of Dragon Ball so this was the result. It basically deconstructed a lot of things that were built up in the past while also deflating certain build-ups at the same time.
Goku should have remained dead and act more as a support to Gohan, Goten shouldn't have been created at all as his antics with Trunks bring Trunks down as a character. It would have been a good move to keep the close friendship between Gohan and Trunks as it was in dark timeline to show that it wasn't just circumstances that brought these two together. Gohan is more like a scholar type and while future Trunks is a great fighter, he is, like Gohan, more about being level headed.
Also, yeah, Videl being relegated from a competent fighter to a childbearing Gohan fangirl waifu was just the most japanese shit ever, waste of a character...
It needed some more time in the oven
If you think about it. Toriyama was ready to leave DBZ as a TV animation up to TOEI themselves and simply work the manga as he wished, ignoring where the TV series was headed. But I guess TOEI was so hell bent on waving dollar signs at toriyama for his continued involvement which what led to what the buu saga ended up being. A complete 180.
GT exists because the buu saga exists. It's sad but true. The production of GT is the remains of what happened behind the scenes during the buu saga.
Gohan and Trunks barely know each other. Quit confusing them with their other timeline versions. Those 2 weren't even close at that age.
Oh yeah, I'm sure he should have had Videl going toe to toe with Buu. That would make total sense. Professional victim.
Seemed like a big joke because that's what did. In an interview long ago he said once he got his editors to confirm this would be the end he gag'd the arc up. He is a gag writer anyway. 11 years of work, dropping a chapter every week, zero breaks, dude was tired.
Your take on videl is near delusional. There’s absolutely no chance nor a reason for her to be strong as any of the Z fighters, or for her to be anything other than a character to compliment Gohan. Videl coming out of nowhere and being stronger than Krillin and Tien who have both trained their entire lives would have been significantly worse writing that what actually happened
Alll the human characters should have been progressing over the years, as should Piccolo. That's the point... they focused too much on Saiyans and not the whole roster of characters getting stronger.
I think this arc fundamentally cemented goku's character and why as a fan loved and admired him. Especially that speech vegeta made about him during kid buu. It was really inspiring. Plus it had some of my favourite moments of Z. But I agree. The buu saga while still close for me is the first signs of straying away from what dragonball would become with super which I do not like
my biggest problem is we get a LOT of very cool ideas, 3 very powerful forms, some of which combine:
1) SS3
2) Fusion
3) Mystic Gohan
4) SS3 Gotenks
and they all somehow manage to f**k it up and NOT get the kill... all those insane power ups for NOTHING, no pay off at all.
I remember goku said he could kill or beat Majin buu but he doesn't because he wanted the kids to do it
There all lot problems of this, they could've won but no they over confidence
@@ultrainstinctgokuhope7442 yeah that’s a big problem too…
even though i understand his point, it’s yet another example of Goku’s naive nature biting his arse.
@@TheAuron32 true but let’s be real in the fans perspective, if he did actually went through with killing Buu then people would just bitch and complain about not seeing of how the kids could handle him with Fusion.
@@jamescadet4450 oh i agree, it’s a lose lose situation.
yeah in the end they just reuse an old idea to beat Buu, instead of a new one lol. I get Toriyama wanted the story to "surprise" people, but after a certain point it feels like the plot itself is trolling us.
The Buu arc definitely killed the drama, tension, and growth of the story and characters up to that point. The entire Z half of Dragonball's plot was about the growth of the next generation (Gohan) and reformation of the major villain of the original DB (Piccolo) and the saiyans (Vegeta). Even the humans had their own themes going on with their attempts to still find ways to support in some effective manner through ki manipulation and concentration of energy to be able to display super saiyan levels of power for individual strikes by the time they fought against the Androids and Cell. It wasn't enough by the time Cell came out, but their efforts showed and everyone was at least important enough to be included in the story for the role they played. All of this was just thrown away in the Buu arc, and that absolutely sucked. Bringing up the lost connection between Gohan and Trunks especially hurts considering their special relationship in the Cell saga. So much quality work just gone. The story really should've ended with Cell, I feel. It's almost a shame it didn't, even though I do have fun with Buu and some of the new concepts introduced in the saga. For all intents and purposes, the real plot of DBZ does end with Cell, with Vegeta sacrificing himself for his family when Trunks is killed and reluctantly admitting how much he cares, Gohan stepping up to become the hero he needs to be and accepting the responsibility that fell onto his shoulders, Piccolo fusing and coming to terms with returning himself to being one being, Krillin actually hitting Cell with his I can't spell the Japanese name so Destructo Disk and then finally landing his lifelong dream girl in 18, Future Trunks saving the future. It all just wraps everything up so nicely. Everything after is just fanfic as far as I'm concerned. Toriyama was the author of DB, but his editors from the Cell saga and before were the real creators of the gold as far as I'm concerned.
Exactly man. I couldn’t have said it any better myself. I personally think DB needs closure like YYH. Ppl still love YYH but it never gotten to the point where another saga was requested and the author wasn’t rdy thus proceeding to put down plenty of insensible plot points that are all over the comments.
Practically all of DBZ is flying from fight to fight and internally monologuing about how strong the saiyans are lol...if you are over 12 and find these characters or stories compelling, you really need to expand your palate. The android saga reintroduces an element of mystery that was present in Dragon Ball. The Buu Saga commits to how ridiculous the show had become. The rest of the show is self-serious nonsense.
@@CripplingDuality I didn't say it was a masterwork of writing, but it had a solid through-line that all great stories have and the Buu arc utterly decimated the through-line of the entire Z half of the series. It clearly seemed to put market and Toriyama's Toriyamaness above actually cohesive storytelling, and despite how fight and scream and fight some more DBZ is with plot dumps all mixed throughout, it did have a cohesive narrative that even a kid could see (Gohan coming to terms with his latent power and succeeding his father as Earth's strongest warrior and protector). Mostly cause Toriyama didn't know how to deliver on transforming his characters actual character with growth after a planned introduction arc where they start evil or at least antagonist-y and turn good or get killed by the end of the immediate conflict. Ironic for someone who's credited with creating some of the most iconic transformations in all of media.
I wouldn't say the Majin Buu saga killed the drama, tension, and growth of the story and characters because there were actually a lot of moments where the stakes were high and scenes that were very sad such as Majin Vegeta killing himself and Mr Satan getting shot which triggered Super Buu showing up. Most of the Z fighters still played an important role whether it was for a short moment or not.
I think the Majin Buu saga was a good ending for dragon ball z because we get to see Goku and Vegeta end in good terms which never came to full circle in the Cell saga. Throughout the whole show Vegeta wanted to surpass Goku and become the strongest Saiyan but after so many hardships he humbles himself and admits Goku is better than him. At that point his character did a 180 in a good way. Also Goku coming back to life was a good ending since he got to reunite with his family and make a connection with Goten.
@@em9886 The Buu saga gives in some areas, but it comes at the cost of Gohan's prior character development, including him already coming to terms with the need to fight to protect and realizing that his own overconfidence cost his father his life, the importance and difficult of attaining the super saiyan transformation and ascending beyond that, Piccolo becoming the Yamcha jobber of the arc, showing up to events just to show off how powerful someone else is by losing/giving up to them without fighting or standing around in complete awe of their power. etc etc. It's a fun arc, and it does some good stuff for Goku and Vegeta, but it mostly does more harm than good to literally everyone else
Man, Goku Black should've been future Goten. Goten and Trunks enemies in the future could bring so much opportunities to develop and do something with the kids...
Goku Black being Future Goten? Please no or go with the Bio Broly route. Whether you hate the movie or not atleast it gave those two their shine.
goten wasn’t even born in the future timeline 💀
@@xenodusk5750 he could be. Diferent timeline, Goten could've been born earlier
That dumb
Goku Black should have been Gohan Black instead; Zamasu taking Gohan's body would make a lot of narrative sense, and go a long way to giving the viewers a glimpse of the potential Gohan had, not never fully realized.
Unpolular opinion but Toriyama is an absolute horrid writer. We got 17, 18 and Cell because of studio interference (and thank god).
Once Akira is unhinged, we get dumb as a brick childlike Goku like we did in Super.
Listening to you talk about SS3 just made me realize that Luffy's Gear 4th forms, more specifically Bounce-Man is SS3 done right. Gear 4th is an ascension of an asecnsion, essentially ccombining the ideas of Gear 2nd and 3rd with Haki. It looks goofy, but Luffy kicks some serious ass with it with Doffy barely being able to keep up. However, the from is incredibly taxing on both Luffy's body and Haki with him being rendered immobile for 10 minutes after using it. Doffy is barely able to outlast the form, which then forces the side characters to hold him off until Luffy comes back. Once back, Luffy uses the form to beat Doffy effortlessly in one punch.
After that, Luffy keeps training with the form and masters it more and more to the point that he no longer needs to recharge after using it. He also gets various alterations to Gear 4th (Tank Man and Snake Man) but those seems to be forms that specialize in one aspect (Defence for Tank Man and Speed for Snake Man) and Bounce-Man remains his default. I think it also helps that only Luffy can use these forms.
Yea? And then Gear 5 comes along and Gear 4 is a joke.
The saga started very good. There were some great moments and fat buu going from evil to good was really well executed but after that it just dragged on. Lots of build up for Gotenks and Gohan... they get absorbed. There are some good moments but they wasted so many plot points. Way too much shit happens.
Give buu credit. He's smarter than cell and realizes when he's lost. A lot doesn't happen. The plot progressed correctly.
@@Jiron127 buus definitely smart but a lot also happens
Toriyama found decent ways to continue the story but the arc had like 3 times where it felt like it could end
@Justin Arzola oh absolutely. It's still my favorite saga. Very memorable.
Q
Actually I really like it all the way up to Gohan issue was after kid Buu came out it really dragged on after that and lost all the steam which makes sense since it was the end .
Im convinced videl got such traumatic brain damage after being beaten spopovich that THATS he reason for her character shift
Shes still a best female written character along with bulma
@@andrewdasilva7786 bulma dwarfs her
@@andrewdasilva7786 not really, she’s basically just Chi Chi 2.0 just they didn’t turn her into a complete Karen when she became a parent
@@andrewdasilva7786 yeah no, videl is mediocre as a character. Even chi chi and 18 surpasses her
@@hiruyabebaw807 Not really. In fact, straight after the buu saga she is the great sayiawoman, and continues being the vigilante crime fighter she always was, and of course in DBS: Superhero she is a martial arts teacher. She is just more mature now, which happens with age.
The buu saga had many cool concepts... but all of them were poorly executed. And I hated how kid buu's defeat was because the earthlings were too stupid to listen to Hercule Satan.
I agree. The one thing i don't like about the Majin Buu Saga was the poor ending.
Why would the people of Earth listen to Goku's voice over mr. Satan?
Goku saves the world publicly many times
He's also a wolrd champion and known as the strongest man in the world, at least cell saga had the excuse that he wssnt recognized because super saiyan looks
@@kyubeycoobie3568 when did Goku saved earth publicly? The only time i remember is during the piccolo jr Arc but that was atleast 23 years ago and then Goku settled down in the forest basically out of the public sights for years, so of course they wouldn't know who son Goku is
Wdym the ending was good. Since it didn't rely on Goku alone saving the day again but instead took the help of all the people from the universe to beat a force of nature that was buu
Gohan should have been the one to defeat Buu. I have no problem with Gotenks being absorbed because it presents a challenge instead of having Gohan just destroy Buu effortlessly...but Gohan still should have defeated him in the end. Vegito is badass but they could have saved him for another saga after Buu...possibly a Janemba saga. I also wish they had a longer fight with Dabura.
I heard that was the writer's original intent. But when the fans found out they protested and didn't want the spotlight to be taken away from Goku. So he ended up changing his ideas at the end and made Goku the hero again. This would explain the inconsistency (just one among many) of Gohan's ultimate form ending up being completely useless. Because he had to be sidelined to Goku could save the day again. Then again, it was not impressive at all how Gohan achieved this form. The unlocking "hidden potentional" arc was already fully completed when he defeated Cell. To say that there was more potential to be unlocked is lazy and boring writing. And all he had to do was sit down while this pervy old guy reading comics was unlocking it. Sounds like a joke to me.
All this video taught me was that the biggest villains in the entire DB canon are the writers.
Goten and Trunks should of at least earned SSJ in the Buu arc. Hell when Super Buu turns Chi Chi into a egg and crushes her, that would of been the perfect moment for Goten to rage out and go SSJ. Goten didn't know Goku that well and he wasn't there to see Gohan "die". Chi Chi meant everything for Goten, and her dying happened right in front of his eyes, he literally watched it happen. You could not of had a more perfect moment. And using this moment to trigger SSJ in Goten would of changed Chi Chi's death from being a joke, to actually being a serious moment in the series.
Trunks could of triggered SSJ when he was watching Majin Buu kick Majin Vegeta's ass. Trunks holds a great deal of respect for Vegeta and is always trying to prove his worth to his dad. Seeing hid dad getting beaten and about to die would be more then enough for Trunks to trigger SSJ out of desperation. Plus it all works out where we can still have Vegeta hug his son "I'm so proud of you my boy, look at you. My son, a super saiyan. I need you to do a favour for me son, look after your mother for me. I love you, Trunks" Then karate chop to the neck to knock Trunks out, Piccolo grabs him and flies away and Vegeta does his final explosion, just like the original story.
Two moments in the saga that could of meant so much more, that could of served a purpose. But no, the writers instead just gave Goten and Trunks SSJ right from the start of the arc for no reason whatsoever. Then later in Super had to come up with some S-Cells garbage to try and explain away their shoddy writing in the Buu Saga.
Yes I love your idea better. The moment goten turns ssj and fights Buu would have been perfect for ssj trunks to jump in as well and suggest fusion. So, there would be no need for the time chamber and goku would be the only ssj3 in the series.
This would've been so much better. Goten turning SSJ when he sees his mother die by Buu would've been the perfect moment for him. Same with Trunks seeing his father being beaten by Majin Buu but I actually think he should become SSJ when Vegeta sacrificed himself to try and stop Buu.
haha read about s-cells and I always thought it a poor reason why universe 6 sayians could reach ssj so easily but yeah it also does recon the children lol. though did the s-cells even make it into the show or manga of super? I don't remember them.
@@Alexander-the-Mediocre Don't know about the manga, pretty sure it didn't make it into the anime though. Us anime watchers unfortunately got that "tingly back" scene.
@@Alexander-the-Mediocre While S-Cells is not great, I'd at least be be more receptive to that as a scientific reason to explain SSJ then having the tingly back. lol
This arc would’ve succeeded if Goku stayed dead, Gohan remained the main character, if Piccolo became the Majinand fought Gohan, and if fusions were never introduced. This arc accelerated everything that is currently terrible about this franchise.
Ya it could have even made ssj3 better if Gohan was the first one to get the form, his potential had been built up for the entire series afterall. It would have been better than Goku whipping it out randomly
Piccolo became a Majin in the video game DBZ Shin Budokai: Another Road!😅
Gohan was the main character til the very end of the series, post him getting absorbed, and contrary to popular belief he was the main character since the beginning of dbz, but yes, Goku probably should have stayed dead.
@@gangstagummybear3432 Akira Toriyama disagrees with you buddy lol
Bait
The Buu Saga was my introduction to DBZ. I saw the other sagas first yes as random episodes on Toonami. The Buu Saga was the first Saga I saw full through. From Majin Vegeta, Ultimate Gohan etc.
But the older I get and the more I watch the other Sagas I realize the Buu Saga is a rushed and disjointed mess. You can really tell Toriyama was kinda done with the franchise. Everything was random and made up as it went along. He brought Goku back in twice in one Saga due to fan demand, he botched Gohan and he sacked Vegeta. Vegeta honestly is the only character to get developed besides Good Buu and Hercule. Other than the fusions (which turned out to be a thrown in idea) the saga is a mess overall. The fusions must have been Toriyama's way of getting rid of the characters of Vegeta and Goku for a bit. Same with Goten and Trunks. It's my least favorite out of the three sagas in Z.
Toryiama has always written like this. The difference is, he's had good editors to reign in his nonsense, that's the reason the Android Arc was saved from doom.
By the Buu Saga, all his classic era editors had retired or moved on to other projects, and he was so popular now that new editors were afraid to criticise his work, so he basically wrote whatever he wanted with no one stopping him or critiquing him and... this was the result.
3 sagas? There are like 7 sagas in DBZ…(Picollo, Saiyan, Freezer, Android, Cell, Buu, World Tournament).
@@darkforcekiller I see the ones with the main Villians as the 3 sagas. The rest are sub categories.
@@markhester6556 What about the Saiyan Saga? Vegeta was a main villain.
@@kingp260 True, he was. I forget that it's technically its own Saga haha my bad. I literally just see it as Vegeta's backstory and the rest of the sagas as his redemption arcs.
Actually liked Goten in DBZ. He was a charming innocent kid with loads of potential. I liked the idea of the Buu saga being about the next generation of Z fighters (Gohan, Goten & Trunks). Now, GT and Super are a completely different story.
It wasn't about the next generation. It was about Goku and Vegeta.
The first half of the Buu Saga was all about Gohan second half was Goten and Trunks then third half just was all about Goku and Vegeta @@Chud_Bud
@@miguelanderson4116 First part was about how much of a loser Gohan is. Second part was about how much of a loser Gotenks is. Third part was about how badass Goku is.
Goten was the one that kept Trunks from going down the same path/developing the same personality as Vegeta. Trunks' personality sort of balances Vegeta and Goku, but its hard to justify Goku without adding a direct influence that would be Goten. Goten and Trunks while growing up pretty much balance each other out.
The first sentence is a really interesting point. I think of it sorta similar to the question of why Android 17 and 18 didn’t become like their future counterparts and a big reason for that I’d like to believe is because of Android 16. It’s the introduction of an anchor character to keep them from going down a certain path.
I honestly did like kid Trunk's attitude, it was a stark contrast because of the peaceful existence. Future Trunks was raised by Gohan, Kid Trunks was raised by Vegeta, which to me explains his personality.
@The Spell Alchemist
That's fine, we're all entitled to our own opinions
@The Spell Alchemist
Because Bulma was around in both timelines, the only change was Vegeta... Plus his attitude directly resembles Vegeta's just like how Future Trunk's attitude directly resembles Gohan's
I feel like the Buu arc would've been pretty good if it ended with Ultimate Gohan beating Buu, but tbf, had it not been extended (from fans in Japan wanting Goku to come back), then we would've never gotten Vegeta to come back and we definitely would've never gotten Vegito. Hate the Buu saga all you want, but you can't deny, it brought some pretty legendary moments and ideas to the franchise.
@Luis Suazo I feel like that comment is more meant for GT than this Saga. (Don’t hate GT though)
I couldn't agree more! Ultimate Gohan should have gotten the job done.
@@Facade953 yeah, and the "hyping up Gohan one moment just to throw him down the gutter the next" thing that started in the Buu saga just continued to get worse and more frequent througout Super; but in this case (Super) I think it had to do more with the fact that Toriyama for the most part would just write a couple a bullet points for each ark, send them to his staff/ animators (who sometimes would change from one episode to the next) and they would fill in the blanks as they pleased - the perfect recipe for a shit storm of characters' regression, contradictions with the established lore, inconsistencies within the plot and messed up power scalling IMHO
@@filipefigueiredo9847 Well tbf, Ultimate Gohan was actually supposed to get the job done. Gohan was actually supposed to be the successor after Goku and Vegeta died, but because fans wanted Goku to come back so much and because Toiryama didn't know how to write a story with Gohan (since he was more of a reactive protagonist while Goku is more of an active protagonist), he decided to not follow through with the whole Ultimate Gohan idea.
So yes, Gohan actually was meant to beat Buu, that's why it was hyped up. Not to mention, the Buu saga is more messy since Toriyama's editor for the Frieza and Cell saga wasn't there anymore. The new editor Toriyama had (for the buu saga) was more lax and let Toriyama do his thing and have fun (since Toriyama was burnt out at the time).
I honestly don't mind the story not ending with Ultimate Gohan though. Sure, it would've been a great conclusion to the whole entire series, but we would've never gotten freakin Ultra Instinct, Ultra Ego, Vegito, Gogeta (maybe not outside of fusion reborn at least), Beerus, SSG, SSB, SSJ4, the dbs Broly movie, and everything super and gt brought to the table. So I'm glad they decided to not keep Goku in otherworld and to not keep Vegeta permanently dead
@Luis Suazo that sounds like a way to hate the saga.
I think the Buu saga was initially great from the start. Loved the great saiyaman and videl moments. Could've stayed as Gohan show. Just my thoughts I guess.
The Buu saga's problem summed up: overfocus on bad/boring/annoying characters who just came about (Gotenks, Buu himself, mr. Satan, the little dog, etc) and total negligence of many already classical, cool and loved characters (Piccolo, Tien, Yamcha, Krillin, etc). Akira basically recasted a good part of the show and much for the worse.
DBZ should've ended at cell, almost every character arc concluded at that point. It's a sad ending with what happened with Goku, but the Buu Saga completely ruined the Cell Games' importance to the story.
But, I don't think Gohan should be Goku's "replacement", since he doesn't like fighting. It would've been fine if they just made a spin-off series of Gohan in high school and stuff like that.
Also WHY did they do Piccolo and Tien so dirty 😭
There's just something so funny about Saiyan Scholar's earnest delivery. He doesn't read the lines with like a jokey intonation at all, he plays it completely straight but he still knocks me on my ass laughing when he says Videl is Goddamn Gohan DLC. Because that's deadass what she is. 😂😂😂
I like the buu saga, but the only thing that messed it up was power scaling
Namek arc did that, not the buu arc
@@Jiron127 the buu arc got people believing kid buu is stronger than buuhan and buutenks and got people believing that ssj3 goku is stronger than ultimate gohan.
I wouldn't say that. Unlike Super, the power scaling was still making sense.
@@michealbanksjr.3630 It's not really complicated. Kid Buu was actually equal to SSJ3 Goku in terms of power but he had the advantage over him thanks to his healing factor and Goku's energy drain. Kid Buu was the most dangerous form because of his lack of intellect ( the reason Super Buu was begging Vegeta not to touch Majin Buu ) and his chaotic and sadistic nature.
@@Facade953 but kid buu isn’t stronger than buuhan and buutenks though that’s the main problem.
I think Kid Trunks' personality makes sense. He isn't going to be humble and polite like his future counterpart, as future Trunks was raised solely by Bulma with Gohan acting as his father figure in a post apocalyptic world. Current timeline Trunks was raised by both Bulma and Vegeta in a time of peace so it makes sense that some of Vegeta's arrogant and entitled personality traits would rub off on him.
I think I got this idea for a fanfic back then. Gohan still hates fighting and then meets videl. Videl seems to enjoy the thrill of the fight and always strive to get stronger. There was a moment in my story where gohan asks why.
She tells him that her mom was killed when she was a kid by a terrorist who targeted satan. She wanted to get stronger so she doesn't feel that same helplessness which gohan understand when goku died. Videl is the reason why gohan started to enjoy fighting.
Videl really is such a waste of a character. Honestly I think they had a huge untapped potential for her. The original DB's much more unique ki attacks. What if Videl through her human heritage and knowledge of how the body works could learn and expand on things like Roshi's (forgotten) electric attacks? She could be the gateway for human characters to become much more powerful through their ability to use Ki in strange ways... You know, things other than just blasts.
I think Pure Evil Buu should've been the main antagonist of the arc (which he technically was but I mean in his skinny gray form). There's so much you can do with the internal conflict thing, and you can use Majin Buu's fight with his evil half as a way to reflect on how so many characters like Vegeta, Piccolo, were once evil but then chose to fight the good fight and put in the work to atone for their sins.
But is the skinny gray form strong?
That skinny gray buu was trash. Kid Buu was a way better villain.
@@EpicParrot54115 its a cartoon he’s whatever the writers want lmao
@@TheFloodFourm wouldn’t say cartoon cartoons have a different style of animation
@@TheFloodFourm and I’m not saying as it can’t be whatever they want I’m saying is that form even strong to be a main protagonist because it wasn’t in the anime
For Videl it's sucks that Toriyama just wasted her like that. I mean she could've been an awesome female z fighter where she would have her own goals and all. And consider she learn how to fly i would've like where Gohan or someone would also teaches her how to use ki attacks like the kamehameha for example like just think of the ki attacks that Videl could use in Dragon Ball games.
It's like Toriyama doesn't know what to do with these female characters when he introduce them and all and just use them as housewives if must. Which isn't a bad thing i guess but you know, i guess Bulma is the only one who does something like inventing things and you know.
Somebody copied
@Justin Arzola I don’t think there would have been a believe able way to make videl a viable fighter in the buu saga without it feeling like a cop out but I would have loved to see her do support things like hercule did when he helped in the fight against buu and continuing her training afterward
I personally enjoyed how Videl was written. At first she was stand offish & was rude to gohan, but once she found out he was the one who beat cell, patched her up w the senzu, & was told he died her real feelings came out which was great character development especially since she couldn't hide the fact that she loved him. I do agree she should of been a z fighter, I mean am I the only one who wants an episode of Videl teaching Mr. Satan how to fly lmfao XD
What is it with the fans' belief that every character that is introduced has to end up being a super strong warrior that can rival the Saiyans' fighting abilities?
Or he's a normal human being with the ability to think rationally and he realizes strong women martial artists is a stupid idea nobody cares to see outside of the US where feminism is trendy. Go watch batwoman
I have watched the last 30 episodes of Z over 30 times I physically can’t dislike it
I disagree with that sector about Videl. She's just a human, bare-bones girl who doesn't have anything special. It wouldn't even make sense to put her as a protagonist since she wouldn't be able to beat any of the villains.
@@JasonMingHong honestly? I wish videl and gohan went at least one fucking round besides in the bedroom
I haven't laughed so much at a take in a while all while making valid points. Dude you just earned yourself a subscriber
Buu may not have been best written but he was my fav villain. Only villain that got to the point. Blew up the earth . Just a kid but I was like FINALLY someone blew the dam planet up
🤣🤣
I feel the main issue was Goten.
It's understandable Gohan had lost power due to the lack of training and more focus on his studies; it's understandable for Videl not being able to jump right into the levels we recently got introduced; and it's possible Dabura was just over hyped for Babidi.
But Goten affected both Gohan and Trunks, who were already an expected duo thanks to the whole future arc. Trunks would have been helping Gohan train, and even if they didn't reach high levels together, it would have been cool for Trunks to refer to Gohan as his master and surprise Vegeta, even if he can't turn into Super Saiyan yet. Him feeling Gohan's ki drop and knowing about Vegeta's sacrifice, as well as seeing Bulma (instead of Chichi) being turned into an egg or something would be pretty devasting and would be amazing for him to finally turn into a Super Saiyan. Piccolo, as the main master of Gohan, would have helped him train and learn some techniques like Special Beam Cannon or some psychic powers; and together they would be able to try and trap Buu in the Time Chamber or something like that. Not another SSJ3, not another fusion, not any broken power levels; just classic powers and techniques to trap Buu. Gohan would be able to beat Super Buu alone, but with both Piccolo and Trunks absorbed it would have been difficult for the power boost and the fear of hurting two very beloved friends. Then, Goku would have helped him by telling him everything would be fine, and the series would have been going as usual, with a little scene of Trunks making Vegeta proud with his new Super Saiyan form and new powers.
Then, for a future series, Pan and Bura would have taken the place for the child in the series, and allow Teen Trunks to be a thing as in the future arc instead of giving us a questionable looking Trunks in Super.
other than introducing new transformations and gohans comeback the buu saga was nothing but constant trolling. The androids/cell saga was peak for me with all the chaos from the androids programming to hunt goku, cells programming to become perfect , super vegetas ego and the genius of goku understanding gohans full potential to surpass everyone during that time.
And the final fight between Gohan and Cell was STUNNING. It wrapped up all the themes and storylines beautifully.
@@ColieBear18 Yep if only that momentum carried over to the buu saga.
@Masenko Gohan was just a plot device from rusty gohan (drawing out the henchmen to revive fat buu) to ultimate gohan (introducing buu han and vegito). They knew about absorption after buu tenks lost fusion power but fell for the okie doke as usual to kick off buu han vs vegito
@Masenko Umm vegeta was a plot device thats how cell got to his perfect form.........Goku wasnt the plot device it was android 16 was which is why gohan went ss2 after 16 was crushed thats the only reason 16 was kept around. Thats not nonsense thats what advances the story for it to continue not flat out end....lmao. I said they knew about absorption after buu tenks key word "after". Goku was fighting along side gohan when buu tenks lost fusion meaning they knew about absorption yet gohan still got absorbed because.... he was "PLOT DEVICE". lol. Dont need advising when I can comprehend how story progression works. I'd advise you to look up the meaning of plot device carefully and more thoughtfully then apply it to your comment
@Masenko straw man fallacy.
Main problem for me was how Goku hijacked Gohan’s story. Know a lot of people preferred Goku to remain MC but I believe you should sleep in bed you made and felt it hurt Z’s theme of Legacy.
Despite this saga not being the greatest one, thanks to those questionable things, we can't deny that the final battle was very intense, the setting, the villain, two characters that started as enemies now work together as a team, everyone doing their part by giving their energy for the Spirit Bomb, all while they're giving the tension for how long will survive Vegeta, Mr Satan and Mr Buu, also, the Dragon Balls were crucial for the victory, thanks to Shenron by reviving everyone from earth (except for the evil ones), and Porunga by restoring earth and Goku's energy to throw the final blow
P.D. I love how you are using some pics from Kakarot
Huh, no one has ever mentioned Uub... I wanted to know some thoughts about him since I think he is kind of forgotten... Technically he was in the DBZ ending...
They did mention him in Super
When I was younger I actually really liked Goten. I think it was because I picked him in the Bodokai games. Strangely I'm not huge on Gotenks, I always wanted to see kid trunks develop into a different character from future trunks - maybe more of a bad boy as he got older? I was actually hyped at one time to see what goten would turn into too. I still kinda like goten but you're right about him having no purpose and no character development at all. Maybe you don't agree but I still think there was potential to do something cool with goten.
I'm glad you mentioned Wrath of the Dragon, I remember watching it on repeat as a kid because I thought SSJ3 and the Dragon Fist were the sickest things ever
Thank you for reminding me multiple times in this video that this was the fault of the writers and not the fictional characters who aren’t real for these things to happen in the fictional series. Thank you for reminding me multiple times because I often forget how things work.
Also he might have mentioned videl at some point - did you catch that also?
The Buu saga is my second favorite saga cause of all the cool stuff that happened: Goku coming back, Vegeta going Majin, SS2 Goku v SS2 Vegeta, Vegeta's final atonement, SUPER SAIYAN 3 GOKU, the multiple forms of Buu, ULTIMATE GOHAN (Which is who should've beaten buu in my opinion), Gotenks, SS3 Gotenks, Goku coming back again, VEGITO HIMSELF, and the battle against kid buu, the best part about this saga is it doesn't drag on SLOWLY (Like with a certain time point on a certain green planet with a certain main character that spent 20 to 30 episodes in a healing tank or like how a certain whole first saga of the show takes forever for the main threat to arrive) this saga and the Android saga are the two best sagas cause while it can be slow, there's always something interesting happening to pass the time while you watch each episode.
Now your talking! I just skip to Androids and beyond unless I’m playing a game
Saw the title. Said out loud “he’s gonna be mad about SSJ3 and Gohan being treated like trash.” Lol
This Saga was my first exposure to DBZ on Toonami. I remember seeing a man with blonde hair beating the sh!t out of this pink blob man
At least that's how I would describe it as a child
Man it's the worst saga to start on lol.
This review really helped me get my frustrations out of my chest regarding the Boo saga.
I only liked the Boo saga because I was a teen and Dragonball was almost like a religion for me. Those characters were part of my upbringing. They were my friends when I had no friends.
But as an adult I see how terribly flawed this saga was. Akira Toriyama is creative but he often makes dreadfully bad decisions that destroy his own franchise:
Goten: I also tried liking Goten. I thought “if he is there, he must serve a good purpose to the story”. But no! Only later I found out that in Japan writers are required to fill a certain quota of kid characters so as for kids to relate to them. 😒. It was fine with Gohan, we actually saw character development in him. But Goten was just a mockery of Gohan and Goku. Both worked so hard into being the warriors they became. And then this bratty kid just easily turns super saiyan? 😒.
Kid Super Saiyans: First of all, Akira forgot to put tails in them. That’s hardly forgivable, but let’s move on! They should have just stayed in the sidelines just like the krillin, Yamcha and Tien were. Because they were too weak; so let the adult saiyans do the job. After all, a villain worse than Cell is about to destroy the world.
But corporate decisions demand that kid characters that kid characters get screen time and be protagonists.
They really were a mockery of what the Saiyan transformations meant to us all. (I am glad in the end they were realistic and made Gotenks fail and let Goku and Vegeta take care of everything). Maybe the Goten, Trunks and Gotenks characters didn’t get the popularity that writers expected.
Majin Boo: he was supposed to be the most bad ass villain of all. He was a primordial demon created by a sorcerer, and the guardian gods (kaioshin) of the universe couldn’t contain him.
Then suddenly this fat funny cheery being appears! 😓. Maybe Toriyama likes to turn down our expectations! 😒.
Dabura: a wasted potential. Not only that but the concept of a demon world in Dragonball is also a wasted potential. I had a Dabura action figure and my mom actually thought the toy was cursed because he looked like the devil 😅.
Conclusion: Toriyama almost destroyed his own creation with bad decisions in the boo saga. But he did finish the job with the bad decisions in Dragonball Super 😢.
Your descriptions, analogies and anecdotes are hilarious. Great work.
I've never cared for this arc....its terrible. None of the transformatiom meant anything other than just doing them. I agree that it's brought down the series.
A lot of people just seem to hate on it cause it took gohan down a peg and made goku the hero again
@@razkable I just like it all
seth, six, and swag are gonna give this video many more views 😆
😭
And yet it’s still better than majority of the arcs in super
Dude, when you started talking about Kid Trunks potentially having been the only kid character in the Buu saga (so, no Goten) it surprised me how I'd never considered how much of a missed opportunity that was. We already know Trunks (or *a* Trunks at least) and expect him to live up to those expectations, and so do the characters in the show. They're not supposed to mention his "other self" from the future, but obviously, he inevitably picks it up from eavesdropped conversations and such. The burden this would place on him and the unique scenario of not being able to live up to a future version of yourself you *know* would have existed, would have made for some really interesting character development and storytelling. Not to mention the potential for a natural mentor-student relationship to form between him and Gohan (even without the android-related circumstances) perhaps even in spite of Bulma trying to prevent this due to her wanting this Trunks to be his own, different person. Could have made for a nice cathartic end-of-saga moment with this Trunks actually being able to *save* Gohan, and in a way surpass the other Trunks he was so worried about living up to!
Regardless of whether you agree with my own specific (let's just call it what it is) fanfiction of how this would play out, I think you can agree, it has fantastic potential.
Instead, we got Gotenks and the Buu saga. Yay.
Dude i hope your channel blows up with popularity! I just got here from watching your video essay on why Dragon ball super sucks, and your breakdowns and honesty without the rose tinted glasses makes this so easy to relate to because I always hated the pacing and character nerfs that the Buu Saga had. Like the ratio of every moment that was as good as "vegata's atonement" to moments of "vegeta and goku playing osmosis jones" is like 1:8
You’re right about the way Videl was
Introduced versus how she became later on… but it isn’t the first time Toriyama screwed over a strong female character (other than Bulma), Launch got relegated to a filler episode and cameo in Z cuz Toriyama forgot about her in the manga. Chi Chi at the end of Dragon Ball was an interesting potential female fighter character, but then relegated to the overbearing mother character for laughs… and then Videl…
Super Saiyan 3 had one of the simplest concepts imaginable and they somehow messed it up. Probably the most frustrating aspect of it. Goku is supposed to use super saiyan 3 to turn the tide in a fight and quickly lose energy to maintain the form, yet still leave the enemy badly injured. That's it. No excuses about how difficult it is to draw. No. It shouldn't even last long enough for that. Unfortunately though, every main character was going to fight Buu and to have Goku's super saiyan 3 form be one of the earliest was far too early. Especially since they ended up being forced to extend the Buu Saga beyond what they intended.
But Goten? Goten was great, idk why you didn't like him. He was a cute comic relief character who was just different enough from kid Goku for everyone to enjoy with fresh eyes, it's not hard to see why. He rarely got in the way of other character's progression and he did a good job being the new kid while Gohan takes on a more adult role.
@Knox2Don TA-DA!!!
You know this actually makes a lot more sense to why Dragon Ball Super is complete Garbage when it comes to its story and why GT is superior. DBGT takes place after the "End Of Z" arc and DBS Takes place right after the Buu Saga. It all makes sense now.
I like dragon ball multiverse's take on the videl character, in a world where Saiyans aren't there to protect the Earth, she became the toughest warrior that has ever been, able to wield the Z sword, and using the kaioken, which should have been a given to every warrior that have trained with king Kai.
First 3 mins made me subscribe. Keep these videos coming
The ending of kid buu should have been Vegeta watching Goku's spirit bomb being deflected back at Goku; realizing that Goku was going to die. He then feels desperate, digging deep inside and yells the name Goku instead of Kakarot. His best friend and rival is about to die, and if they fail, the death of their friends and families would stick. He already swallowed his pride when he declared Goku the strongest, and his humility and anger has him undergo his personal ssj3 transformation. By the time his transformation is complete, Goku is about to be hit by the SB. Vegeta then flies in front of Goku and uses all his new power to deflect the spirit bomb back towards Buu. Symbolizing that he is now pure hearted enough to deflect the spirit bomb, which kills Buu.
I thought spirit bomb only worked on evil individuals, as stated by King Kai, when he taught it to Goku, as well as Krillin, when they fought Vegeta in Saiyan Saga.
I absolutely loved the buu saga. Its very nostalgic and the characters and fights were awesome. Yeah story was meh but I don't know care lol
@Luis Suazo Average dragon ball fan.
Nostalgia is the word here. It is pretty much the only reason why Dragonball is even held in high regard by so many people even today. But when you actually look deeper Dragonball has not aged well at all, especially compared to many of its successors.
Nostalgia is doing the heavy lifting here. I think the story is being analyzed here n not much the memories or impact.
The story was better than it was in the previous 2 sagas....that's for sure
Good day scholar.I find myself infinitely entertained by your content although this video reminds me of one I saw from you the other day 🤣.. excellent points as usual though man...I like your idea about dabura and agree the potential storywise and fights we could have gotten ESP when he would decide to team up with zfighters would be EPIC...and lmao bro you are hilarious..I swear a goddamn DBZ standup comedian 😂👏
I loved Goten’s innocence. They did mess up Videl tho
33:08 cracks me up this is hilarious asf "squat rack and a set of 50 ton dumbbells next to his throne "
The Buu Saga had the strongest start in the entire series. It was full of fresh ideas, new, enjoyable characters, and Gohan was taking charge in the plot before the tournament, the actual only time you get a glimpse into his post adolescent life. Vegeta's character arc... Goku and Vegeta's rematch is hands down the best fight I've seen in DBZ. You see Vegeta being a father to young Trunks, you see everyone taking care of business without Goku around, gaining new respect for these past characters, but the writers took their foot off the gas. I think they just didn't plan out how all of it would come to a close, and it's a shame it all imploded in the end.
Super Saiyan defeated Frieza
Super Saiyan 2 defeated Cell
Super Saiyan 3 DID NOT defeat Buu
Damn
The spirit bomb did though.
It did, Goku used the spirit bomb and Ssj3
Where's SWAGKAGE's Comment ?! 👀
I've never really thought about it that critically before but yeah, fuck, driving more energy and focus towards Videl as her own character could've made for some way more interesting and impactful plotlines than what we got. Even though I'm a bit late to the party here, mostly enjoyed this vid man Imma check out the rest of your stuff.
I disagree. If it weren’t for the Buu Saga, I would’ve never been attracted to Dragon Ball Z or the franchise as a whole… or anime for that matter. It was my gateway to all of it.
That doesn’t make anything of what he said not bad? Tf is your point?
The buu arc felt like a forceful way to make it so goku becomes the mc again and in the cell arc it should have stayed with the whole gohan becomes the main character but it’s the goku and sometimes vegeta show!