Did the Pokemon War Really Happen?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 6 ก.ย. 2023
- Did a pokemon war really happen before Pokemon red and blue this hidden secret / creepypasta in pokemon has always been a mystery but today I'll compile the evidence together one lasttmie to see if we can't put it all together!
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Because Kanto and Johto have some of the heaviest Japanese influence, the war could parallel The Waring States Era of Japan. A war between districts that ended with unification.
warring*
This makes so much sense
I believe the great war is referencing WWII.
Lt. Surge is the Lightning “American”, the Kanto region is based on the Kanto region of Japan, also many American soldiers got deployed in Japan after the Japanese surrendered during WWII, which explains why Lt. Surge is in the Kanto region.
@@ahmadayoub94 Both can be true, as they have massive impact on Japan.
Kanto and Johto war could be a reference to the Boshin War. Pro-Tokugawa vs Pro-imperial. Tokugawa were more traditionalist and the Imperial were all for modernization.
as a kid, Lt. Surge mentioning a war in Pokémon world was like the throwaway line in Star Wars where Ob-Wan mentions a Clone Wars, and my kid brain was just like "Huwaaaaaaah?!"
well hey, we got a whole new series out of it ! hopefully pokémon follows suit haha, writers need to be more careful with their throwaway lines, it could be the difference between creating a side character and an entire era of lore haha
or it can work out into a great spinoff like Better Call Saul's throwaway lines during Breaking Bad@@yeetyeetonthestreet-colinm1186
Yup thats my favourite show and part of it is the fact that it works the way it does being a spinoff. I think its the best when writers are loyal to all the lore they've established to their fans and not leaving any plot holes. The creators of BCS truly have respect for their fans @@oskarsodergren7033
like you can’t just drop the word “clone wars” and not explain what it was
Could defintely see them exploring this idea in a Legends Johto game where you have two factions between Kanto and Johto fighting over land and resources
I think another thing to look at is the line-up of Gym Leaders in Johto. Falkner inherited his gym from his father (where is his father? Did he disappear in the war?). Bugsy is also too young to have been a gym leader for too long, perhaps also inheriting the gym from a lost gym leader. Janine's gym was changed from Rock to Steel, partly because of Steelix being Onix's evolution, but maybe there was a bigger need for a Steel leader for some reason (war-time industry, especially if we're talking WW2, usually puts resources into machinery, which is kinda like the Steel type). Whitney seems pretty young too. Will and Karen are also new Elite 4 members, perhaps former Gym Leaders who got promoted like Koga, but wouldn't it make sense for somebody like Bryce or even Chuck to take that role (considering their age). Claire and Monty are the only Gym Leaders who seem to be at an appropriate age, closer to the Kanto leaders (though I guess Misty is also quite young in RBY). Maybe it has nothing to do with the war, but the Johto regime-change seems like an unexplored topic.
This is really getting my brain working 🤔
mmmmmm, love this!
I wonder if there was a war, that Mewtwo was created as a weapon for Kanto. It was created within the lifetime of the adult characters, and perhaps they were worried that whoever they were fighting could get their deity level pokemon to fight for them - Kanto not having anything like that, with their legends being little more then mere cryptids.
I want for Legends Celebi to just be Johto. We can't access Kanto due to a war between feifdoms.
We could even see the creation of the Indigo League as well as the borders being opened later.
Imagine Surge being a Faller you meet in postgame like Anabel and he's saved by Raikou/Zapdos.
This would be a pre-Gen 1 Surge. He goes back to his time and therefore his story makes sense.
Seeing the indigo league getting formed would be awesome. Early gyms could be fighting dojo’s set up in traditional cities like Eutekreak or Blackthorne.
I think there definitely was a war, but never thought about a Kanto vs Johto one. That actually makes so much sense. They really do feel like one region, so it's interesting to consider why they are actually considered two. Some kind of sour history between them seems more and more likely the more i think about it. Nice video!
Lt. Surge, to me, is not just any American soldier. I think he's a direct reference to Gen. Douglas MacArthur, the man in charge of the Pacific Theatre in WWII. The height, the boisterous attitude, and even a little thing called the MacArthur Fellowship, which is also dubbed the "genius grant" in science and engineering, running pretty nicely in parallel with the electric and steel types.
On an unrelated note, I want to thank you, Toby. We will enjoy your content for the last 4 months. You and Liam are the highlight of the PokéTubers. What’s up? 😤
aw thnaks :D
I completely agree with the sentiment. I am curious though. Who is Liam?
The war of flicking boogers at each other
Im guessing the unification is the pokemon equivalent to the Spanish inquisition. That's the reason why no one experienced it in paldia
I always wanted to see kanto in the year 2023 like how different would kanto be now old pokemon having new evolution's having new gyms and meeting new people like imagine the new gym leader is Brock's descendant that wanted to be stronger than their father so they turned the gym from a rock gym to a steel gym.
if we're going with Tajiri's original concept of the series (being in an AU of our world of 1997.) That "Pokemon War" may have been the Gulf War
The Pokemon World Tournament guy in B2W2 says that Lt. Surge is from Unova, which makes sense says he is the "Lighting American". And Bulbapedia says that "it is mentioned in Unova's history that they have been at war" although I'm not exactly sure what is being referred to there.
It seems very reasonable to believe that this "Pokemon War" was indeed the Pokemon world's equivalent of WWII.
Since Pokemon was created in the 90s, Lt. Surge's military background could be eluding to the Gulf War. We've yet to see a canon middle-east based region in Pokemon (though trugreen7 has made a great fan region) so it's still open for debate
Yeah, I've seen theories about this before. They mostly point to the appearance of his uniform and the fact that he was a pilot.
Gen 1 being how it was, they may have meant he served in the actual real life Gulf War, fought in the real life Persian Gulf, which exists just like the real life Space Shuttle Columbia and the real life Guyana. It's only as the series moved away from real-life countries existing pretty much as you know them but with pokemon towards regions that stand in for countries that it becomes confusing deep lore, instead of a simply picking from the list of wars fought by America.
the fact that mewtwo exists could also be a hint, as it is supposedly the most powerful pokemon. it could have been created as a weapon. Indeed, mewtwo was created under the mansion on cinnabar island, in a bunker. perhaps the beserk gene was created to make mewtwo a more powerful and lethal weapon. Maybe team Rocket is an underground army made up of people who didn't want the war to end, and that is why it only operates in Kanto and Johto, not any other regions.
So the question is, if there *was* a war, who won? I'd say Kanto won.
Kanto has better technology, possibly due to the war, so they industrialized faster and more efficiently, and faster industrialization often is a very important factor for victory in war. It's possible that the people of Johto were complacent, believing their deity of life and seas would protect the air and seas with divine winds, but that did not happen.
Kanto built quickly and heavily for fear of similar retaliation, but Johto's technology was simply not up to the same standards. Johto built some defenses, but underestimated the overwhelming might, and were beaten quite swiftly. However, after the tower burnt down, and the legends of Entai Raikou and Suicune appeared, peace was swiftly made for fear that these legends would attack.
Kanto would offer peace, but at a cost. Johto will not have their own league. They may have gyms, but they will not have a league to train possible soldiers in future. They must share it with Kanto if they wish, as such all powerful trainers from Johto were screened by Kanto's authority. They would not industrialize for war, either. To the people of Johto, this was fine. They would keep to their traditions, keeping Johto far less industrialized, never finding a way to mass produce the special pokeballs made from aprikorn.
Good to see that before you go, you're about to bring us your best content yet!
I would be down for a hardcore Pokémon war movie.
Holy damn man been watching your videos for years. Always a banger!
aw thnak you :D
Thank you so much for all videos you made. You are one of my absolutely best youtubers ever. :)
Jsi borec. Mám moc rád tvoji tvorbu.
I have been to Shibuya a couple of times, but only in Cyber Sleuth and Hacker's Memory.
You will be greatly missed, and personally, I think there were still many great things you were absolutely capable of accomplishing.
The immense imagination you're able to put behind these videos will never be matched! This is incredible!
aw thank you
Great video toby
I just read today that years ago, the US apparently bombed the city that sunnyshore is based off of.
And it got me thinking about how we have an electric type American war vet gym leader and sunnyshore city coincidentally has an electric gym also.
Just thought it was interesting
Thank you for the video.
Wasn't there a Pokemon Movie where we saw some kind of War?
@@cpmn1090 Yeah
in my own Netherlands inspired region
there was also a war (based on the 80 years war against Spain)
this war was a giant Paldean dragon Pokémon (based on the Portugal Coat of Arms)
that dragon flew to Nenal, and started a giant battle against the whole region, with 5 Legendary Pokémon were needed to kill the beast
and now in the modern day of the region, a 2nd dragon, the twin of that Paldean one comes for revenge, and that would be the plot
stop that 2nd dragon before it is to late!
When I was younger I thought the war referenced in X and Y was the one Lt. Surge fought in and he was just super old
War between Unova and Galar?
Galarian Empire?
Kalos Empire?
Paldean Empire???
Sun and Moon really dropped the ball without naming any part of the islands "Clamperl Harbor"
Yes curls!!! Your hair looks so good king ❤️❤️
aw thanks ^_^
Also the main island of Hawaii looks like Charmeleon.
I want someone to make a rom hack about a pokemon war, where we play either a soldier, nurse, or a civilian
Lt. Surge: My war years were electrifying. Shocking things I wish I could unsee. I had no idea watt was going on. Team Rocket drew First Blood at Lavender Town creating mass Pokemon casualties. If we hear that creepy theme music, poor Raichu has flashbacks. Need to get him back to the Pokemon center for therapy.
Tbh we all know there was at least one Pokemon War starting with the one 1000 years before X and Y where AZ split the timeline in 2 creating Mega Evolution this time around, then there are at least other wars such as there being one before Legends Arceus as the Diamond and Pearl Clans have had a hated rivalry for ages since both came to Hisui so what's to say this led to a small war over the rights to who can live in Hisui and who's God was the right one and then another example could be actual Legendary Pokemon Wars as in Legendaries fighting one another to prove dominance as Groudon, Kyogre and Rayquaza had their turn Zekrom and Reshiram had theirs etc.
Here is my pokemon war lore
So long ago(about 150 years) the johotonian empire a once thriving empire fell into a civil war between itself and the Kanto region a part of the empire that had been there for well over 500 years
(This is to explain the sinilsr archetecire and why the towers burned down during a war)
After the war ended Kanto would manage to gain its independence and the two states begun to very drastically, as Kanto formed alliances and peace talks with outside powers like Unova (and by proxy alola since I think unova owns alola) Kanto begun to prosper
Johto however remained very traditionalist and refused to get with the times leading to a bitter rivalry that would eventually boil into a massive war
I'd say giovani was a major general during the war,it would explain how he became a gym leader and gained so much willing support from team rocket as they were likely recruited from the men he commanded
The war was long, brutal and destructive wiping out many towns and nearly eliminating the of age male population of both
In the end the treaty of Mt Silver would end the war both sides gaining nothing from the fighting except for a new found respect for one another
After the end of the war neither side was allowed to have a standing army, only a navy and by proxy marine corps for protection at the high seas in order to prevent further fighting
(Explains why sailors are seen but not soldiers outside of surge)
And Unovan soldiers would remain like LT. Surge to help maintain the peace after the end of the war with surge being a celebrity due to his actions during the fighting.
By the time giovani was defeated was around the same time the cooperation agreements between the two countries began starting with the opening of the two leauge between one another, then the setting up of the monorail system to get between the nations
I mean, if the Burned Tower was destroyed by a bolt of lightning, who's to say that lightning wasn't caused by the Lightning American? Could give more reason as to his nickname other than just "electric type".
Didn't Elm study under Oak if so was this after the war or during the war...🤔
I think it’s most likely the war was between Kanto and Unova. Mostly the idea behind this is because the ecology and Pokémon of both regions are vastly different and they are the two areas not to share any Pokédex overlap. It’s even possible that Kanto/Johto/Hoenn/Sinnoh were all one region but were fractured by the war. Surge is a Unovan/American who occupied Vermilion as a post-war treaty just like Americans have Naval bases in Japan still to this day.
I think the important thing to note is that the term used is region, not country. Even in Japanese, it doesn't make any statements about a governing body. Which is how you can have the Japanese regions that are probably part of one shared country on one hand and Paldea that draws from a geographic region featuring multiple countries on the other.
It sounds to this “Pokémon war” is just a reference to World War 2 and that’s why Lt. Surge is American and his signed badge is referenced in a region based on Hawaii.
I wonder what lt surge says in the original Japanese dialogue.
Team Rockets leader Giovani is a ground type gym leader, but it resembles a feather.
What if team rocket is the regions former Air force, who went underground after the war.
The champion, a flying type specialist, tries to rebrand himself as a dragon type specialist to distance himself from his former college.
I can't find the video You mentioned at 1:18 and now I'm sad
Considering Gen 1 apparently takes place in the year 1996, I would think Surge was just referring to the real-world Vietnam War. Consider: Unova, Orre, Alola, and whatever other American-based regions there might be, all fought against whatever region Vietnam is supposed to be. I really don't think it's any more complicated than that.
Kanto and Johto war could be a reference to the Boshin War. Pro-Tokugawa vs Pro-imperial. Tokugawa supporters were more traditionalist and the Imperial were all for modernization.
I think it's likelier, that Silph Co sells pokeballs at a loss and makes money in other ways.
What if the destruction of the tower in ecruteak was all three, during a warring time robbers looted the tower on a rainy night and set it ablaze with thunder for it to then be put out with the rain 4:41
I love when people claim that pokemon would never go so dark as to mention war, as if (even ignoring Kalos) A) 90s games weren't far darker than they're typically willing to go today, and B) as if legends isn't literally about colonization, specifically the way the modern Japanese colonized and oppressed the indigenous Ainu people, mirrored in how the diamond and pearl clans took over and appropriated a culture they didn't fully understand from the Celstica people. like, the Ainu were treated much like the US treated our indigenous, it's an incredibly dark history. in fact, many yokai stories and creatures are actually essentially witch trial propaganda. they were created to claim the Ainu were evil monsters in order to justify the genocide of all who refused to bow to the colonizing Japanese emperor. Hisuian Zoroark is also also based on both a specific illness that ravaged the people of that age (don't remember it off the top of my head, but I remember it caused big red sores like what Zoroark is covered in), as well as how the remaining Ainu were rounded up and stuck in the harsh land of Hokkaido (Hisui's base) and a great many died purely because the land was so harsh and they didn't have the resources they needed, which is why legends spends so much time telling you how harsh and dangerous and deadly the land is and how if you try to survive out there all by yourself you're just gonna die. and we know this isn't an accident because of how much the events mirror each other, and some of the outfits you can get (like the girl's head scarf) takes clear inspo from traditional Ainu hats.
I'm honestly floored they were willing to go there, in modern day, essentially calling out their big home playerbase and their own government, for genocide. if they're willing to go this far now, why WOULDN'T they have had war be a vaguely hinted at background story back in the 90s? it's not like they showed the war. and the affect of being hit by two bombs is something often shown in Japanese media. Ghibli is full of it, with all their war scenes being about death from above and all using the color pallet described by survivors of the bombs when recounting what they saw.
plus, America was a big player in the recent wars, if not actively in a war at the time (we end up in so damn many I can't even remember anymore) and we have a big military base in Japan with lots of American soldiers who may or may not be vets. making a gym leader an American veteran was not something that batted an eye. might seem odd now, but it made perfect sense then. I think the autograph part tho is ether them misunderstanding how we treat our vets (since we tend to worship the military in the same way we worship celebrities) or that's a part of how the Japanese treat their own military/react to "notable" foreigners in Japan. but that's just speculation on my part.
War has happen, if it has happen 3000 year ago in X and Y.
Maybe it isn’t modern warfare but the strain of war is here.
It’s fractured… Kanto and Jhoto separated but together too.
Paradise has come at a cost.
Omg i cant believe they made Shibuya from Persona 5 real.
What if paldea and Kalos have gone to war? If you see the ultimate weapons it definitely goes back in almost the same place, which could be to paldea because it's very close. Maybe paldea unified to defeat Kalos just like German in the French-German war
I literally came from a solid jj video and I wanted to see if this was true
i know there is literally no evidence of this, but a theory of mine is that blastoise were rare pokemon used heavily in the war by kanto, and were made to evolve into the tank-like tortoises they are now for that purpose, but before the war took on the more gentle and feathery appearance of its previous evolution, or perhaps wartortles weren't meant to evolve naturally at all, and blastoise were a completely man-made evolution that they eventually learned to fall into when trained by a human, like through selective breeding
Leave it to Pokémon fans to overthink a whole ass war theory. I love it!
Also if you go by the Pokémon adventure comics most of the gym leaders in kanto worked for team rocket besides Brock and Misty. The elite four was evil too.
I feel like there would be more direct references to the war if it was within Surge's lifetime, you know? That's my big hang-up for why I can't get behind this theory.
It would kinda be dark if Pokémon trainers were gonna be used as soldiers in the future 💀
Did you see the Hachiko statue at Shibuya Station? 🤩
I did :D
This is why Kanto and Johto are my favourite. The best lore and Pokemon imo.
Actually I know it as Quadratum
*simple and clean begins blasting*
I think Pokemon history and geography mirror earth's history. The war Surge was in was WWII, and AZ's war was the 100 Years War.
@@cpmn1090 game text suggests he was a pilot for the US Army, and his Pokemon used paralysis to save him during the war. I assume his plane went down behind enemy lines, and was saved by his Pokemon.
As for age, if he was in WWII he'd be 73, in Korea he'd be 61-64, for Vietnam he'd be 39-59, and Desert Storm he'd be around 24. Vietnam would make the most sense, but the Gulf War does too.
Can we talk about Togepi and Togekiss for a second. If there wasn't a war, kiss would've been introduced in gen 2 with it's pre-evolutions. Kiss doesn't appear in areas where there's hostility. War is hostile hence no kiss. For a lack of better terms, war would be too perfect to explain why it wasn't around.
Kanto vs Johto? Don't think so. Rather, you can chalk that up to...
Kanto = well...Kanto
Johto = Kansai
Since the time of the shogunates, there's always been this rivalry between these two ACTUAL regions of Japan. Kyoto still regards itself as the TRUE Imperial capitol, despite the Imperial Court now residing in Tokyo. And Tokyo and Osaka...yeah, check it. Hilarious AND serious at the same time!
Now, as for an ACTUAL war... there's something odd between Unova, Hoenn, Kalos, Galar, and now Paldea. Kalos, we know about. But who was that weapon really intended for?
My guess is Galar. The huge central part of Galar looks fairly "fresh" in geological terms...the landforms are pretty damaged, there's very few indications of erosion, and if you think about it, this would tend to indicate that both major population centers were a target...but AZ "missed", resulting in that huge central chasm. And don't forget, there's a sufficient energy source there for Galar to have created its own massive energy weapon.
Hoenn fits in here because, after the main mayhem of ORAS, AZ visited the region and planted that tree at the entry to the cavern in Sootopolis. This seems to have happened after the weapon altered AZ's physiology. Unova connects in a similar manner, plus...well, where DID Ghetsis' palace get built? There must've been huge subterranean spaces there for Plasma to have pulled that off.
And then, Paldea. That plaque in the lower levels of the crater definitely indicates something that involves AZ and which probably concerns the massive energy source at the bottom of Area Zero (hint there, too).This could've been an initial attempt at building AZ's weapon and some of what's there does indicate some sort of engineering project was going on.
But back to Hoenn for a sec...remember, you have the projects that Wattson supervised...both involving some type of energy source, and both abandoned by Wattson. And then, Sootopolis, of course, is a "third" to those.
It would seem to me that there's a LOT more to the story than just what we've seen this far. Plus...well, we're now at the halfway mark of their "Fifty Year Plan" that they mentioned back in the early-mid 2000s. I think the ride here has a LOT more to it than we're currently aware of.
We never learned who blues parents were. The biggest thing we learned about her is shes a theif and is afraid of flying types
'Murica!
Ditto
Ничего не поняла но было интересно 😀
GROW THE BEARD JOIN US !!!
Tartaria
There always a history let’s say a UB celasteela has when you go back in modern Society of war sim alertly Guzlord as well both UB could be actually War
Bro you have too much time on your hands 🤣🤣
The real out of universe explained a Sheen of course is that the company just never expected to be super popular in America. But they stuck Lieutenant surge in their both to reflect the then relatively recent state of the world of having Americans occupying Japan. Or even currently at the time the games were being made America had a heavy military presence in Japan and kind of sort of still does. A game about Japan would to their minds have to acknowledge this foreign presents that they had just gotten used to and come to later see as for their own benefit.
Exactly as the generation born after the American occupation would come to see it that American culture and economic connection ultimately benefited Japan.
The lightning American being a famous gym later there would not be anything strange to the people of Japan living at the time the games were first released.
The wars in Korea and Vietnam would have been well within living memory of the parents of the kids playing the games for the first time.
Lieutenant surge therefore would be the hero American protecting Japan from communist aggression. An honored and respected if slightly foreign part of the community. Americans who served in Korea and Vietnam either marrying local women or otherwise getting permission to stay in Japan was very common.
But after the games became popular in America and gave Pokemon a very large Financial incentive to keep the franchise going and to keep it acceptable to the American Market. They couldn't exactly drop the lieutenant surge character completely but they could be intentionally very vague about what his role actually was.
Ultimately Lieutenant surge is a slightly character Church version of something that the generation making the games would have been intimately familiar with. Especially because they had no confidence that the game would even take off. they felt understandably reassured and just reflecting their society as it existed. To have not included a caricatured slight at the Americans would have been deeply unJapanese at a time.
You have to remember that Pokemon began in a world before what we understand is the decolonization movement even tried to get started. They were just slightly uncomfortable grumblings about the state of the world which no one felt that they could change at the time.
The Japanese makers of the game would have fully expected the parents to either play the game also or at least talked about them with their children. Therefore including a ridiculous American caricature would have been funny to the parents who had purchased the game. Pokemon does not shy away from some really mature topics and at least until recently you could tell that the games were meant to be something that parents talked about with their kids.
* explanation
Ok but who won. I want to say Johto because it seems like the Kanto government was weak enough to allow a powerful criminal presence like Team Rocket to start there.
bad letter 94
🏆🏆🏆
Interesting that your "map of the Pokemon world" denies the real-life locations of inspired regions, and yet you're quick to assume Surge comes from Unova or Alola, which only in the real world are associated with America. If anything, the in-game information makes Alola sound more like an alternate universe Hawaii in which Japan (the Pokemon Nation) inhabited or colonized Alola first. Orre / American Southwest, too. Perhaps the Rocky Mountain equivalent is what keeps the Pokemon nation-infulenced places like Alola and Orre from the "American" Unova to the east.
Yeah ignore the planet map that's not accurate. Just there for effect
@@BirdKeeperToby How do you feel about the headcanon of "Japan" populating Orre, explaining why there's only Kanto, Johto, Hoenn, and Sinnoh pokémon there? Especially Johto.
@@rowanmichaels makes sense to me ^_^
I’m sorry, irrelevant but holy hell over the years Toby has gone from bestie to daddy 🤤
Of course there was a war. This universe has Americans in it.
See, you still got it. Why quit?
Better to end on a high note
@@BirdKeeperToby I do heavily agree with your statement about the current state of the pokemon games. What a Trainwreck they've become.
didn't unova also had a civil war ?
the 2 princes who split the original dragon probably had supporters who would join their side in war.
Yes... Its Canon. It got mentioned by a npc who experienced it.