When it was first released, everyone was so shocked at MTMoores part...such a monster didn't sit well with many...such a classic film 40 years later😢❤🙏✌️
Donald Sutherland not getting an Oscar nomination for this film is a crime. Mary Tyler Moore showed real guts playing such a character you end up hating. Opposite of Mary Richards.
At that moment when Conrad hugs his mother, Calvin knew she had to go. She was the problem in that family. Conrad was trying to show affection and love, but she just couldn't or wouldn't accept it and never would be able to. Like he says later on she's not strong and unable to deal with pain and loss. As long as everything stayed happy and perfect and wonderful she would be fine, but that's not unconditional love.
+LadyDi4476 That's because Beth Jarrett was a narcissist. These type of people are incapable of genuine love. It's all about me..me..me.. with a narcissist. Conrad was the scapegoated child and Bucky was the golden child. Narcissists do not change in fact, they get worse as they grow older. This is only a story but the story is about the reality of a relationship between a mother and son in the narcissistic dysfunctional family. It's very toxic and the only way to deal with it is to go no contact.
LadyDi4476 I'm reading the book now, after seeing the movie a dozen times! Beth is a tragic figure. She was raised to do everything the 'proper' way, totally unequipped for the catastrophe that befell them. Conrad works with the psychiatrist to overcome the pain and guilt, but Beth refuses any counsel and thus seals her fate as an embittered person.
imajeepster I don't know if the problem was accepting him -- I think Conrad represented to her everything that had gone wrong in their lives. Her only way of coping was to run in the other direction whenever a problem arose.
Everytime I watch the golf scene from "Ordinary People" I wonder why MTM didn't become a movie star. Now I realize she is known as a great comedic actress. But the dramatic acting chops she shows in the golf scene is as good as any big screen performance i've ever seen.
RIP Donald, one of my favorite scenes of his. This whole movie is his best performance in my opinion. Closely followed by Space Cowboys no matter how corny it is.
I love how when on the golf course how Beth reaches a crescendo while shouting at Calvin but then pulls back and lowers her voice, “ I don’t know what anybody wants from me anymore!” She decrescendos on the last word anymore…a form of controlling her emotions. MTM was wonderful in this role. The entire cast was terrific!
Beth can't live a life of uncertainty, a life that demands she leap off of a cliff of stability and perfection into a valley of love and vulnerability. Conrad has learned to give and to really live. He loves his mother warts and all, and strangely that becomes a burden for Beth. If Beth opens her heart to Conrad, she becomes vulnerable and out of control. Beth can't handle love without conditions, she is too brittle and broken to receive it and give it.
No. I think she loved Buck and while she may still love Calvin, she is indifferent to Conrad; at best she resents him for what happened, and perhaps she is growing to hate him. When Calvin says he doesn't know if he loves her, she is free to abandon the family, which is what she wanted to do all along, after Buck was gone. She's just stone cold without Buck and to a lesser degree Calvin.
One of the worst snubs of all time - the film's entire Oscar campaign is a bit illogical (though largely successful) - Timothy Hutton is clearly a lead (to me he's co-lead with Sutherland, and they both should have been nominated) and you can argue that MTM is the supporting character (and should have WON in the supporting category if she was in it) as the film is told from the perspectives of the father and son.
A very powerful scene. MTM herself has said that Beth is a victim too, that she was unable to let her guard down because she already had so much pain, she couldn't take any more. I suppose she loves her son in her own way, but they are on different planets, different languages.
Beth is a classic textbook case narcissist , Buck was the Golden Child the super achiever she could love because he had earned the approval for the surface view of the family, when Buck died , most of Beth did too , she had zero connection to Conrad & or to her husband . as someone who has survivors guilt over an accident as a teen , this movie was therapeutic and helped me immensely
Extreme fragility inside. I like how there was criticism of how NPD is defined in the DSM. It would be helpful if folks understood those with personality disorders suffer greatly as well.
***** I also think that she never properly grieved losing Buck--which obviously devastated her more than words can describe. But because Beth was so scared of expressing vulnerability and emotion she had to forcibly repress this side of her--thus the constant need to be in control and have things be in perfect order. And she and Conrad are actually very much alike---but through therapy Conrad was beginning the process of coming to terms with his vulnerabilities and emotions---Beth would have benefited enormously from therapy but she would most likely have been too frightened to go through with it!!
***** She admits she is self-centered, but according to her it's ok because everybody is. So she might have thought his suicide attempt was aimed at her. When really she contributed to it. And I think she knows it. She never expressed any affection for Conrad, but always had plenty for Buck. That was well established. I have no doubt she hated Conrad for living while Buck died. Her angel died and the son she never cared much for lived. She secretly wishes it had been the other way around. She knows it's wrong, but she can't help it. She feels very sorry for herself. Doubtless he felt that, especially given their history. If she could face the truth about herself she'd have to admit some pretty ugly things. That's why she avoids facing anything. She either pretends all is right with the world or blames everyone else. She'd rather live in denial. Even in the next scene, she simply packs up and moves out rather than say a single solitary word to fight for her marriage. All because her husband had the audacity to calmly state the obvious about her. If she wanted to keep her marriage she'd have to talk about her part in all this. And she can't do it.
+Mybpeterson Oh, I don't think I agree with that! When she packs her suitcase, she nearly has a mental breakdown, but catches herself before succumbing. I really think Beth is an example of someone who has suffered too much pain and can't take anymore. I think she loves her husband and remaining son, but has her guard up so much against pain that she can't let in any love either.
@Review She sees Conrad as weak for attempting suicide. When an argument finally starts revealing how they each really feel she says: "Buck never would have...."
This was one of my dad's favorite movies. He was so upset that MTM didn't win the oscar for best actress. MTM was wonderful, and it would have been a well-deserved win. That year, the award went to Sissy Spacek for Coal Miner's Daughter. Having seen both movies, and knowing the shock people had at seeing one actress best known for comedy, and another best known for a horror movie, a very good horror movie, but a horror movie nonetheless, do such amazing work, one would be hard pressed to decide who should get the oscar. Persononally, I think the fact that Sissy Spacek did her own singing in CMD was ultimately the deciding factor. I also agree that DS should have been at least nominated for an oscar. R.I.P Donald Sutherland.
Such an extraordinary performance by MTM. You have to remember she just ended a successful comedy series and plus the fact she did The Dick Van Dyke show previously. I remember reading that there was doubt casting her in such a serious movie. But Redford saw something in her and she just nailed it. This gold scene when she seemed happy and content but the mention of Conrad by her Sutherland and all of a sudden her emotions just changed. That is acting at it's best.
Amy Zielke That's because Conrad spent months working through the issues with his psychiatrist. He's finally able to feel some normal emotions. Beth, on the other hand, refused to see the doctor and never did anything to move past her pain, other than to ignore it and pretend everything was fine. That's why she's so shocked at the sudden human warmth. She can't feel anything.
To me it seemed like she was completely repulsed by Conrad hugging her, and she turned away from Calvin’s studied gaze of her trying to hide what she couldn’t.
websurfin2010 Well, she did love Buck more, no question about it. But I think she loved Conrad too. But her entire M.O. is "let's pretend that everything is fine, that there's no pain or guilt or anger." So when Conrad hugs her, she really can't fathom how he overcame the issues that she can't even acknowledge.
websurfin2010 That was my mother. Unable to receive or show affection, except on rare occasions. She left us 2 years ago and I miss her and love her despite her shortcomings.
Also, when Calvin suggests they include Conrad in their next vacation trip, yes, he does do it on purpose, only for a good reason, and not really that he means to pick a fight with Beth. Rather, it's obvious that he now sees what Conrad means about his own mom hating him(treating him like the "invisible boy" the way she has since Buck died), and so it's simply Cal's way of "challenging" his wife to see how she truly is about their surviving son. The way Calvin does the same with Beth, later on near the end of the movie, when he comes right out and asks her if she even loves him(Calvin). Really, all this time since they lost Buck over a year ago, it's plain to see that their facades of seeming happily married really are nothing more than mere "masks," partly for their friends' and families' sakes.
That look on Beth's face after Conrad hugs her just sums up her character. Incapable to love anyone but her deceased son "Buck". If she had hugged Conrad back it would have shown that she did have the capability to grow. However she just had nothing left to give. The Scene later on after Calvin tells her off, and she goes up to get packed and leave. The cold harsh reality hits her super hard. She starts to shiver and cry because she knows the truth, and there is nothing she can do about it.
Yes, great follow up scene, you see that for just a moment she let's the pain in, then shakes it off in an instant and returns to being almost robotic.
Good grief! Mary is absolutely devastating in this scene! Beth must have had a horrid past to become such a defensive victim. Superb script. Sutherland's searching look at 2:40 interspersed with hazy happy memories is so poignant. Two lines he said later in the dining room scene are haunting and sorrowful. " I don't know who you are. I don't know what we've been playing at. "
I've thought that it's unrealistic for her character to act the way she does. However, you make a good point. Maybe she had a horrid past although her parents seem pretty harmless. Nonetheless, Mary Tyler Moore is very good in this.
Yup, gone beyond hope of salvation FOREVER. I know JUST the feeling, or similar feelings anyway, simply with the basic synonym element of “a once good, pleasant relationship that has since GONE AWRY, BY THE NUMBERS,” so that now chances of things ever being mended are GONE, beyond salvation-ZERO. And basically because it was my ex-friend, not me, who was responsible for the rift in our relationship-they were NOT the person I thought they were. Just like Beth is not the person Calvin always thought she was all these years he’s been married to her, and now after all that has transpired ultimately since they lost Buck the time has come for him to re-evaluate their marriage, what he truly does think of her.
What an interesting thought. I see a shrink and so does my son. Do I think that's on my husband/father of our son .... kinda, but I bear some of the responsibilities.
It’s a horrible but realistic thing that trauma can reveal what a person is really like underneath. It makes someone honest and lose their filters and then you’re left with who they are deep down. Can be a really good person or a really bad person.
I personally don't see humans as binaries like "really good people" or "really bad people" I think we're all sorts of things to different people at different times.
the saddest part about this movie is that my grandmother and mom are just like the mom's character in this movie. my mom has said so many things throughout my life that remind me exactly of this
The acting in Ordinary People is just so real. How does one get at that emotion level to make it look real and not a performance. That scene was done in one take.
She loved buck she would have been content to have just buck. I'm sure calvin wanted another child & beth went along with it bc she is so into images & the perfect looking family that she was like ok 2 kids is perfect mom dad nice house white picket fence. She was so in love with bucky if u watch the one flashback she is fawning over him like a school girl. Inside when both buck & conrad were out on that boat , she wished if one son had to die it was conrad not her beloved buck. She was so happy when buck was around it wasnt obvious which child was her favorite. So she is " stuck" with conrad & she cant stand that. She even wanted him to go away to school. Calvin is a normal person & he loves both his sons. It's insane to him that she literally wants to pretend conrad is not there. Very sad. Sometimes u just cant force someone to love their own child. Its awful but she just sees conrad as a reminder that buck is gone. Calvin had enough when he saw how she could not even hug her son back. That's his son too & he loves him. In the end if beth stayed around conrad & calvin were never going to be better . She was toxic. I see comments that she loved conrad but I dont think she could & that freaked her out so she pretended he was not there. Look at her when he hugs her she is paralyzed.
Totally agree with you. I've seen many people comment that Beth still loved Conrad but was unable to show it. I also disagree because she certainly had no trouble showing complete disdain for Conrad. She verbally abuses a recovering suicidal teenager by saying, "Buck never would have been in the hospital." Beth is a monster. Deep down she knows fully what she is and refuses to seek help - she just wants to carry on abusing everyone around her because her Norman Rockwell world is in pieces. Narcissists like Beth have children simply as a vanity project.
@@RedRockTH-cam Cal even describes to the therapist how Beth ALWAYS favored Buck and never showed real affection to Conrad. In their first session. There's a clip of it on YT, you can play it. She always favored Buck and she deeply deeply resents Conrad for surviving.
The big misconception about Beth is that she doesn't feel. She does as this scene shows. She just keeps it trapped so deep within her so no one can see it. It's only in moments where she feels vulnerable or angry that it begins to slip. Beth doesn't allow grief to show because she knows that if she even begins to acknowledges it, she's probably afraid of how much it will consume her. Hence why she maintain a facade to the outside world that everything is fine when it fact it's eating her up inside because she's unable to deal with it or provide comfort to her husband and her son. She's a wounded woman that's hiding it from the rest of the world. In the process it also isolates her from everyone too......
woohooboy: "Beth doesn't allow grief to show because she knows that if she even begins to acknowledges it, she's probably afraid of how much it will consume her." What does this mean? "consume her"
five dollahhh: Movies like this let us know we are not alone. There are other mothers that, for what ever reason, are unable or unwilling to show affection. Of course, it's not just mothers. I've often said that we can learn from our parents how NOT to be. Show the affection to your own children, five dollahhh, that you wish you had been shown. Take care.
Bill Wilson You can say that for most relationships. Somebody once told me that everyone on my staff thought I was a great boss -- what was my secret. I said, that's easy, I treat my staff exactly the opposite of how my boss treats me!
I've always thought this scene as perfectly directed. Painful to watch, the shouting match between Sutherland and Moore in the golf course. But notice though how the next scene is a quick jump cut to a close-up of Ms. Moore's face while she's in the plane, presumably looking out. Can't quite fathom the expression. Is it one of remorse? Remorse for the vulgar display of anger directed towards Sutherland? Or is it an expression of fear? Maybe Beth, at this point in time, is genuinely afraid that her actions may have carried the hate and anger and animosity too far into the abyss that there is no turning back. Maybe she realizes that she has also contributed to Connie's mental state. Watch closely as she goes up the steps after Sutherland tells her that "He's not even sure if he still loves her anymore". The barely-contained walk up the steps and then the breakdown as she brings down a suitcase from the closet in the bedroom. Robert Redford films this so perfectly, everything is just calibrated to the right pitch, that it never feels too maudlin nor melodramatic. If I had the choice, I would have given the Oscar to Moore that year for Best Actress and Sutherland definitely deserved a nomination for his genteel, haunting performance as Calvin.
Mark Guevarra especially after Mary lost her son in a car crash and Timothy Hutton lost his father right before the movie came out drawing from personal experience
Christ, do your homework before posting. MTM's son died of an accidental gunshot wound, not a car crash. And his death was AFTER the filming! Moore may have had lots to draw on, but this wasn't it.
I have used vignettes from Ordinary People when teaching about Forgiveness. Nothing is more devestating to A Parent than outliving a Child. Having compassion and Empathy for each other makes It possible for Us to survive. Faithfully and Lovingly Yours, The Rev. Derrill B. ( Derk) Manley, Ph.D
Best picture ...best supporting actor ( Hutton ) ...best director ( Redford ). We should have also seen Oscars for both Mary Tyler Moore and Donald Sutherland . They were all brilliant in this film . Mary lost her son in real life after Ordinary People . She stated in interviews that she did not believe she could have played Beth if he had died before this role .
EmeAhG Imo, he does it foe the wrong reasons. He never understood his wife to begin with, and that's the whole problem. The dynamics in this family are clearly toxic. She is not cold-hearted but in a verry different stage of grief, actually she hasn't even entered the grief stage yet. She is in clear denial. Conrad makes Bucks death real, because it's all he ever talks about, that's why she avoids him. She also feels anger at him for.bringing her in this situation, but remember - - - Conrad did THE SAME. He blames Buck for making them ride intp the ocean and getting into the storm, then not taking it serious, while making Conrad do all the work. I'm just saying, don't write her off so easy, because a lot of this movie is about keeping up a pretense. All of them pretend to be ok. Conrad did that for the most part, and only managed to get better once he got therapy.
Can someone, anyone, please explain why Sutherland was not nominated for this movie and Judd Hirsch was? I mean Hirsch did a great job, but Sutherland deserved at least to be nominated.
One of the tensest scenes ever. I always feel disturbed when I watch it. There is more tension here than a hundred of those stupid action movies together.
Movies back then were all about the acting and directing . Now we have over usage of special effects and violence . Most of the creativity and talent has left the building in this day and age .
Probably her best acting was the scene where she didn't say a word when Conrad hugs her and she has that stone cold look and then she has to shake it off and re collect herself.
😮 she didn't have a stone cold look her whole body froze up when her son held her and she looked bewildered as if she didn't know what to do as if she was uncomfortable if you looked at her face.
Donald Sutherland in "Ordinary People" from 1980 (leading male actor) and Mia Farrow in "Rosemary's baby" from 1968 (leading female actor) were the most SHAME of Academy in the movie history. 😖🤦🏻♂️ Both great actors, with ZERO nominations to Oscar. Unbelievable. 👎🏻
This is so real. She loved both her sons but LIKED her oldest who died. She could deal with the second son but the older sons death exposed that relationship.
Also, Calvin is SO RIGHT @ circa 1:18 while suddenly having it out with Beth: “Stop being such a NARCISSIST, and start being a little GENEROUS AND THOUGHTFUL once in a while, by thinking of others besides yourself! Like your own (surviving) son, not your “favorite” son, who’s now GONE and in HEAVEN, for Pete’s sake!” (I know that’s not what Calvin says, but he might as well have; as I’ve said before it’s plain to see Calvin knows by now what Conrad means by feeling hated by his own mom, the way she really seems to treat him like the “invisible kid,” never deigning to have anything to do with him, really, unless to speak to him about something important.
Really, the way Conrad's expression here at 2:00 is like, "This really is the LAST STRAW!" is why he does what he does later on, towards the end, reluctantly but readily admits that he and Beth can no longer go on putting on positive fronts, the time really has come to say,"This is it, Beth. I am no longer willing to play these games and abide by your rules." Heck, it even hits him that perhaps Buck's death really may not have anything to do with his wife's cold nature; perhaps deep down inside, this really is what Beth has been like, all these years- it really never was in her nature to be kindhearted, or even proud of her own kids' accomplishments.
I’m sure I said this before, but 1:04 and 1:10 are GREAT moments-Audrey and Ward each like “Are Beth and Calvin ARGUING?!” as they each walk past Beth and Calvin and notice this sudden change for the worse in them.
Mary Tyler Moore did an interview a long time ago where she said she was just playing herself when she played Beth. Quite a stretch from the character of Mary Richards.
she was plastic and appearance oriented before the tragedy which makes it harder to deal with grief and admit something is wrong. Most likely ran in the family too, like when she told her mother conrad was in counseling - the grand-mother could only give a critical response about the dr's race yet conrad's welfare is at stake. That's pretty superficial. Also she calls out her brother for being "proud" about his swimming pool, another clue about dynamics on her side - in that other scene where she tells calvin it's no one's business conrad is seeing a dr it's very private matter etc. what's really bothering her is that conrad seeing a dr is a reminder they are no better than anyone else and she can't handle that because she always saw herself as "better than"" especially where buck was a high functioning achiever which played into being "better than"" she doesn't want to let go of superiority - to do so means defeat - a lot of it based on pride which prevents her from getting in touch with her grief
While it's probably well-thought that it is Calvin who is reminiscing of their disco days, I still believe it could be Beth too. He looks at her like, "What is she thinking about? What does she see when she shuts her eyes?" Even if the author, director, or actors told me otherwise, I think it could be both. Beth thinking of when life was so easy and carefree, and Calvin remembering when they were truly in love.
I’ve often thought it was supposed to be Calvin having that memory, of when they were still “happily married”(naturally, when Buck was alive), and they were having such great Times together as husband and wife. Times that were likely never to be had again, the way their marriage had gone.
As for Beth, right after their fight, when they’re on the plane home her expression seems to say “Perhaps I DID go a bit too far this time,” then tells herself, “Well, just forget about it for now, Beth, and go to sleep,” which she does, so as to give herself more time to simmer down after all the goings on of lately.
I assumed that it is Calvin's memory of them at their prom. (not disco lol) It could Beth's too, but since they were showing Calvin right before the flashback, it's his memory -- of when they were truly in love, as you wrote. Probably before they were married.
@@wotan10950 Audrey's reaction to what her sister-in-law says,"See that all your kids are good and safe and have much less not drowned in that swimming pool you're so fond of!" sure underlines that,all like "Oh,BETH! How HORRIBLE!"
When conrad finally gives his mom a hug it's the first time she got a hug from her son since her other son died in a boating typhoon accident and after conrad tries suicide.
He's not tired; he's changed. He has found that he can live with himself for staying with the boat and is on the road to healing. He is genuinely reconciling with his parents (his dad in the final scene). He is healing faster than his parents now.
I think I finally got something. Damn - this whole family dynamic is just sooooo toxic, it's beyond fucked up. Hlnestly, these people are all wrong for each other, and their son's death is only the catalyst to bring this to the surface. The mother wants her husband to consider her too. Her husband is only thinking about his son, assuming he's the one to havd it worst. In truth, this is clearly not the case. Thd mother suffers just as much, if not more; only that she is in a different stage of grief, at the very beginning stage, while her son managed to get past that - and he only did so because of his therapist. Think about it, the father reveals to the therapist, that he believes Co rad to be most like his wife. And he specifically mentions "They were the only ones who did not cry during the funeral." And it is truer than one would believe on first viewing. I just thought about it; she is coping with this trauma the o ly way she is comfortable with, the way that comes easiest to her. She controls her emotions in order to not have people worry about her and appear strong (the same Conrad wishes to be during the very first session with his therapist - he literally tells the guy he wants to control his emotions.). She wants to control her emotions and not feel certain things, an because she is taking this to the extreme, she ends up controlling most of her other emotions as well, and doesn't even feel them - just like Conrad in the beginning. Because if she does allow emotions in, even the good ones, than chances are much higher she will have to deal with the bad ones tol (grief, pain, fear). Look at the end, and see what happens whe she looses control of her emotions. She breaks down. I believe that during the final scene, the mother is exactly at the same stage that Conrad was in, when he tried to commit suicide. Everything starts cracking down. You lose control. Also - remember that she shared a very special bond with her deceased son. So this is even harder for her, in a way, than it is for her husband and Conrad. And yes, it is true that she is angry at Conrad too for not being able to help Buck and making this all about himself (with tze suicide) but remember - that's natural too! Conrad himself is angry at Buck for not being serious, for being too rash and having Conrad do all the work on the boat. He feels, imo, that it is Buckies fault for getting them into danger, and essentially making Conrad watch his own brothers death.
One more thing. Conrad and his ma are literally talking past one another. While Conrad is on his way to get past this whole trauma, she most certainly isn't. He is taking his final steps towards the end of the tunnel, and uses his mother (in a way) to get clarification on certain aspects. The problem is - and this what causes the whole tension between them - they are at very different stages. While conrad is comfortable enough to talk about the past, his mother is still very much in denial. It can't ever work out, because Conrad just keep.bringing up her desd son whenever he is with them. He reminds her of Buck's death. While she is clearly, trying to live in denial about this fact very much. Isn't the whole first half about just that? Think about it, she is playing golf, hosting dinners, traveling Europe - all things she did when things were still ok. She simply doesn't want to admit the truth into her mind just yet. She honestly eve acts as though buck were still around. So keeping Conrad away is essential to her sanity, because whenever she sees him, she can't possibly.escape.the reality of the situation. Which is pricely the reason she doesn't want him around while she is traveling. Anothdr thing I just remembered! - all of those above activitkes were social getaways really, for show, more than anything else, as she clearly doesnt want her friends to assume anything is wrong. Christmas was the only big event she wasn't comfortable going through with, because of.it's private nature. Christmas is all about love and family after all. She wouldn't have managed to go through with it (and she didn't, did she? She left in the taxi before.things got too much for her. Her way of coping was to get away after all, pretend things didn't happen. She gets away from her son, and now that her husband cpnfronts her too, she gets away from both of them.) She has absolutely nobldy to go to. Conrad has his father and his therapist and his friends too. But his mom is all by herself, and both him and his father give her the fault. Too for being emotionless, and cold hearted. They simply don't understand her either, and that's the crus of it all. These people arn't good for each other, and Buck's death only brought to the surface, a bunch of issues that were there from the very beginning.
I think you have a very valid interpretation. I also believe she suffers as much as Calvin and Conrad, but she doesn’t have (and doesn’t want) the tools to deal with her grief and anger. She is trapped in her own hopelessness.
gattaca5000 I interpreted that a bit differently. I think Beth went off on her brother because he said she should just be happy. And she's basically saying she can never be happy again, and that neither could he if he lost a child. I don't agree with her, but I can understand where she's coming from. Conrad, on the other hand, is finally able to work through his guilt and pain, and you know he'll be happy again. Beth probably will never be happy.
@@wotan10950 her brother said, "we just want you to be happy." And she validly responds, don't try to tell me about being happy when you haven't lost a child. And frankly, while I think he was sincere, he wants to gloss over everything and present a front of everything is OK. He is like Beth in that way, no surprise as they were raised by the same parents. The scene with their mother shows how she could create children like that. That was what your comment brought up for me.
fyi...I personally felt the same way, ¨total emptiness¨, when I hugged my father's 3rd wife...its unreal, yet very true...after that first embrace, I would call them by their first name, but never mom! go figure...
Calvin mentions to Beth to say if their son Conrad would like Pinehurst, then Beth starts by changing the subject like she doesn't want to know about Conrad. And their huge row starts on the golf course. That Beth is absolutely nothing but a cold, hostile and a narcissistic person.
She didn't change the subject initially. Her immediate reaction is anger that Calvin mentioned including Conrad on their next vacation. Then she wants to change the subject, but Calvin challenges her to "finish what you started."
It is, perhaps, the best movie I have ever seen. Does not hold any punches. Thank you so much for posting this.
When it was first released, everyone was so shocked at MTMoores part...such a monster didn't sit well with many...such a classic film 40 years later😢❤🙏✌️
@@davidstout5766yes, she was a golden girl but really she was just a brilliant actor
Donald Sutherland not getting an Oscar nomination for this film is a crime. Mary Tyler Moore showed real guts playing such a character you end up hating. Opposite of Mary Richards.
💯 % agree
That is an UNDERSTATEMENT!
Really, it's a crime!
Beth Jarrett was something else .Amazing 🎥 Acting
At that moment when Conrad hugs his mother, Calvin knew she had to go. She was the problem in that family. Conrad was trying to show affection and love, but she just couldn't or wouldn't accept it and never would be able to. Like he says later on she's not strong and unable to deal with pain and loss. As long as everything stayed happy and perfect and wonderful she would be fine, but that's not unconditional love.
+LadyDi4476 she couldn't accept him for who he was. I kind of felt sorry for her in a way.
+imajeepster Yeah, me too. So sad it is.
+LadyDi4476 That's because Beth Jarrett was a narcissist. These type of people are incapable of genuine love. It's all about me..me..me.. with a narcissist. Conrad was the scapegoated child and Bucky was the golden child. Narcissists do not change in fact, they get worse as they grow older. This is only a story but the story is about the reality of a relationship between a mother and son in the narcissistic dysfunctional family. It's very toxic and the only way to deal with it is to go no contact.
LadyDi4476 I'm reading the book now, after seeing the movie a dozen times! Beth is a tragic figure. She was raised to do everything the 'proper' way, totally unequipped for the catastrophe that befell them. Conrad works with the psychiatrist to overcome the pain and guilt, but Beth refuses any counsel and thus seals her fate as an embittered person.
imajeepster I don't know if the problem was accepting him -- I think Conrad represented to her everything that had gone wrong in their lives. Her only way of coping was to run in the other direction whenever a problem arose.
RIP, Mr. Sutherland… you will be sorely missed. 😢
Everytime I watch the golf scene from "Ordinary People" I wonder why MTM didn't become a movie star. Now I realize she is known as a great comedic actress. But the dramatic acting chops she shows in the golf scene is as good as any big screen performance i've ever seen.
It’s outstanding
RIP Donald, one of my favorite scenes of his. This whole movie is his best performance in my opinion. Closely followed by Space Cowboys no matter how corny it is.
As great as MTM was I think it's DS performance that gets me every time!!! So many layers!!!!
There were so many layers to both of them.
I love how when on the golf course how Beth reaches a crescendo while shouting at Calvin but then pulls back and lowers her voice, “ I don’t know what anybody wants from me anymore!” She decrescendos on the last word anymore…a form of controlling her emotions. MTM was wonderful in this role. The entire cast was terrific!
They were all brilliant .
Mary Tyler Moore played the cold unforgiving mom to a 'T'
That was my mom
@@juliananton7800 Im sorry of that. 😯
Beth can't live a life of uncertainty, a life that demands she leap off of a cliff of stability and perfection into a valley of love and vulnerability. Conrad has learned to give and to really live. He loves his mother warts and all, and strangely that becomes a burden for Beth. If Beth opens her heart to Conrad, she becomes vulnerable and out of control. Beth can't handle love without conditions, she is too brittle and broken to receive it and give it.
Amen!
No. I think she loved Buck and while she may still love Calvin, she is indifferent to Conrad; at best she resents him for what happened, and perhaps she is growing to hate him. When Calvin says he doesn't know if he loves her, she is free to abandon the family, which is what she wanted to do all along, after Buck was gone. She's just stone cold without Buck and to a lesser degree Calvin.
Why wasn't Donald Sutherland nominated for an Oscar? Everyone else was, and Sutherland was no less brilliant than them.
One of the worst snubs of all time - the film's entire Oscar campaign is a bit illogical (though largely successful) - Timothy Hutton is clearly a lead (to me he's co-lead with Sutherland, and they both should have been nominated) and you can argue that MTM is the supporting character (and should have WON in the supporting category if she was in it) as the film is told from the perspectives of the father and son.
A very powerful scene. MTM herself has said that Beth is a victim too, that she was unable to let her guard down because she already had so much pain, she couldn't take any more. I suppose she loves her son in her own way, but they are on different planets, different languages.
She is a victim, but in the sense that she died when Buck died, and there is nothing she can do about it other than carry on on the surface.
Beth is a classic textbook case narcissist , Buck was the Golden Child the super achiever she could love because he had earned the approval for the surface view of the family, when Buck died , most of Beth did too , she had zero connection to Conrad & or to her husband . as someone who has survivors guilt over an accident as a teen , this movie was therapeutic and helped me immensely
Extreme fragility inside. I like how there was criticism of how NPD is defined in the DSM. It would be helpful if folks understood those with personality disorders suffer greatly as well.
@Jasonificatiation She resents that he survived when Buck did not.
"Mothers don't hate there sons". sounds like she is trying to convince herself.
Exactly.
***** I also think that she never properly grieved losing Buck--which obviously devastated her more than words can describe. But because Beth was so scared of expressing vulnerability and emotion she had to forcibly repress this side of her--thus the constant need to be in control and have things be in perfect order. And she and Conrad are actually very much alike---but through therapy Conrad was beginning the process of coming to terms with his vulnerabilities and emotions---Beth would have benefited enormously from therapy but she would most likely have been too frightened to go through with it!!
***** She admits she is self-centered, but according to her it's ok because everybody is. So she might have thought his suicide attempt was aimed at her. When really she contributed to it. And I think she knows it. She never expressed any affection for Conrad, but always had plenty for Buck. That was well established. I have no doubt she hated Conrad for living while Buck died. Her angel died and the son she never cared much for lived. She secretly wishes it had been the other way around. She knows it's wrong, but she can't help it. She feels very sorry for herself. Doubtless he felt that, especially given their history. If she could face the truth about herself she'd have to admit some pretty ugly things. That's why she avoids facing anything. She either pretends all is right with the world or blames everyone else. She'd rather live in denial.
Even in the next scene, she simply packs up and moves out rather than say a single solitary word to fight for her marriage. All because her husband had the audacity to calmly state the obvious about her. If she wanted to keep her marriage she'd have to talk about her part in all this. And she can't do it.
+Mybpeterson Oh, I don't think I agree with that! When she packs her suitcase, she nearly has a mental breakdown, but catches herself before succumbing. I really think Beth is an example of someone who has suffered too much pain and can't take anymore. I think she loves her husband and remaining son, but has her guard up so much against pain that she can't let in any love either.
@Review She sees Conrad as weak for attempting suicide. When an argument finally starts revealing how they each really feel she says: "Buck never would have...."
I watch this over and over again, Beth/MTM is honest about her feelings even though people may not agree with her. So powerful.
Mary Tyler Moore was great!!! what acting!!!
The entire cast in this film are giving a masterclass in acting.
This was one of my dad's favorite movies. He was so upset that MTM didn't win the oscar for best actress. MTM was wonderful, and it would have been a well-deserved win. That year, the award went to Sissy Spacek for Coal Miner's Daughter. Having seen both movies, and knowing the shock people had at seeing one actress best known for comedy, and another best known for a horror movie, a very good horror movie, but a horror movie nonetheless, do such amazing work, one would be hard pressed to decide who should get the oscar. Persononally, I think the fact that Sissy Spacek did her own singing in CMD was ultimately the deciding factor. I also agree that DS should have been at least nominated for an oscar. R.I.P Donald Sutherland.
Amazing movie and amazing acting!
You're right on both counts. The ending is sad, but I think it had to be that way
Such an extraordinary performance by MTM. You have to remember she just ended a successful comedy series and plus the fact she did The Dick Van Dyke show previously. I remember reading that there was doubt casting her in such a serious movie. But Redford saw something in her and she just nailed it. This gold scene when she seemed happy and content but the mention of Conrad by her Sutherland and all of a sudden her emotions just changed. That is acting at it's best.
Redford said he saw MTM walking on a beach alone with a face so distant in expression that right then he knew she would be a great Beth Jarrod.
@@geraldjohn7954 How cool.
She looks so stunned when Conrad hugs her like "what just happened?"
Amy Zielke That's because Conrad spent months working through the issues with his psychiatrist. He's finally able to feel some normal emotions. Beth, on the other hand, refused to see the doctor and never did anything to move past her pain, other than to ignore it and pretend everything was fine. That's why she's so shocked at the sudden human warmth. She can't feel anything.
Not just the look but how she turns her head away from her husband too and stays in that position.
To me it seemed like she was completely repulsed by Conrad hugging her, and she turned away from Calvin’s studied gaze of her trying to hide what she couldn’t.
I love the part when he tries to hug her mom, and she can't hug him back.
jesusfish she loved buck more.
websurfin2010 Well, she did love Buck more, no question about it. But I think she loved Conrad too. But her entire M.O. is "let's pretend that everything is fine, that there's no pain or guilt or anger." So when Conrad hugs her, she really can't fathom how he overcame the issues that she can't even acknowledge.
websurfin2010 That was my mother. Unable to receive or show affection, except on rare occasions. She left us 2 years ago and I miss her and love her despite her shortcomings.
the look of disgust on her face is bone chilling. Should have won her the oscar
So sadd....
My mother was this way towards me. She couldn't stand me.
Also, when Calvin suggests they include Conrad in their next vacation trip, yes, he does do it on purpose, only for a good reason, and not really that he means to pick a fight with Beth. Rather, it's obvious that he now sees what Conrad means about his own mom hating him(treating him like the "invisible boy" the way she has since Buck died), and so it's simply Cal's way of "challenging" his wife to see how she truly is about their surviving son. The way Calvin does the same with Beth, later on near the end of the movie, when he comes right out and asks her if she even loves him(Calvin). Really, all this time since they lost Buck over a year ago, it's plain to see that their facades of seeming happily married really are nothing more than mere "masks," partly for their friends' and families' sakes.
Calvin finally grows a pair of balls
Maybe given Connie is not long out of the hospital, any decent parent would include them?
That look on Beth's face after Conrad hugs her just sums up her character. Incapable to love anyone but her deceased son "Buck". If she had hugged Conrad back it would have shown that she did have the capability to grow. However she just had nothing left to give. The Scene later on after Calvin tells her off, and she goes up to get packed and leave. The cold harsh reality hits her super hard. She starts to shiver and cry because she knows the truth, and there is nothing she can do about it.
Yes, great follow up scene, you see that for just a moment she let's the pain in, then shakes it off in an instant and returns to being almost robotic.
Good grief! Mary is absolutely devastating in this scene! Beth must have had a horrid past to become such a defensive victim. Superb script. Sutherland's searching look at 2:40 interspersed with hazy happy memories is so poignant. Two lines he said later in the dining room scene are haunting and sorrowful. " I don't know who you are. I don't know what we've been playing at. "
I've thought that it's unrealistic for her character to act the way she does. However, you make a good point. Maybe she had a horrid past although her parents seem pretty harmless. Nonetheless, Mary Tyler Moore is very good in this.
so sad, when he's remembering how in love they were.
And how it's all gone.
Yup, gone beyond hope of salvation FOREVER. I know JUST the feeling, or similar feelings anyway, simply with the basic synonym element of “a once good, pleasant relationship that has since GONE AWRY, BY THE NUMBERS,” so that now chances of things ever being mended are GONE, beyond salvation-ZERO.
And basically because it was my ex-friend, not me, who was responsible for the rift in our relationship-they were NOT the person I thought they were. Just like Beth is not the person Calvin always thought she was all these years he’s been married to her, and now after all that has transpired ultimately since they lost Buck the time has come for him to re-evaluate their marriage, what he truly does think of her.
When 2 out of 3 people in a house are seeing a shrink, it's the third person's fault.
Scapegoat.
What an interesting thought. I see a shrink and so does my son. Do I think that's on my husband/father of our son .... kinda, but I bear some of the responsibilities.
RIP Donald Sutherland, one of the finest dramas ever made
It’s a horrible but realistic thing that trauma can reveal what a person is really like underneath.
It makes someone honest and lose their filters and then you’re left with who they are deep down.
Can be a really good person or a really bad person.
The loss or serious illness of a child destroys a lot of marriages.
I personally don't see humans as binaries like "really good people" or "really bad people" I think we're all sorts of things to different people at different times.
the saddest part about this movie is that my grandmother and mom are just like the mom's character in this movie. my mom has said so many things throughout my life that remind me exactly of this
Wow lose your son is tuff enough. Great movie great life story. Tough movie.
The acting in Ordinary People is just so real. How does one get at that emotion level to make it look real and not a performance. That scene was done in one take.
She loved buck she would have been content to have just buck. I'm sure calvin wanted another child & beth went along with it bc she is so into images & the perfect looking family that she was like ok 2 kids is perfect mom dad nice house white picket fence. She was so in love with bucky if u watch the one flashback she is fawning over him like a school girl. Inside when both buck & conrad were out on that boat , she wished if one son had to die it was conrad not her beloved buck. She was so happy when buck was around it wasnt obvious which child was her favorite. So she is " stuck" with conrad & she cant stand that. She even wanted him to go away to school. Calvin is a normal person & he loves both his sons. It's insane to him that she literally wants to pretend conrad is not there. Very sad. Sometimes u just cant force someone to love their own child. Its awful but she just sees conrad as a reminder that buck is gone. Calvin had enough when he saw how she could not even hug her son back. That's his son too & he loves him. In the end if beth stayed around conrad & calvin were never going to be better . She was toxic. I see comments that she loved conrad but I dont think she could & that freaked her out so she pretended he was not there. Look at her when he hugs her she is paralyzed.
Totally agree with you. I've seen many people comment that Beth still loved Conrad but was unable to show it. I also disagree because she certainly had no trouble showing complete disdain for Conrad. She verbally abuses a recovering suicidal teenager by saying, "Buck never would have been in the hospital." Beth is a monster. Deep down she knows fully what she is and refuses to seek help - she just wants to carry on abusing everyone around her because her Norman Rockwell world is in pieces. Narcissists like Beth have children simply as a vanity project.
@@RedRockTH-cam Cal even describes to the therapist how Beth ALWAYS favored Buck and never showed real affection to Conrad. In their first session. There's a clip of it on YT, you can play it. She always favored Buck and she deeply deeply resents Conrad for surviving.
@@RedRockTH-camYep. Beth lost her golden child. She never loved Conrad.
This Scene Illustrates What Dialogue Can Never Accomplish for this brilliant Narrative.. Thanks Donald...💗
Time to watch this again.
Brilliant Actors Mary Tyler Moore. Donald Sutherland Rip 🌹
I grew up in the same kind of fakey family with a mother who was always on edge.
When Conrad put his arms around his mum, it shows that she completely froze, and she still cannot show her affection to Conrad at all.
The big misconception about Beth is that she doesn't feel. She does as this scene shows. She just keeps it trapped so deep within her so no one can see it. It's only in moments where she feels vulnerable or angry that it begins to slip.
Beth doesn't allow grief to show because she knows that if she even begins to acknowledges it, she's probably afraid of how much it will consume her.
Hence why she maintain a facade to the outside world that everything is fine when it fact it's eating her up inside because she's unable to deal with it or provide comfort to her husband and her son.
She's a wounded woman that's hiding it from the rest of the world. In the process it also isolates her from everyone too......
Dan Cowan I said wounded, not wonderful
Dan Cowan OK thanks for letting me know
woohooboy I feel like her.
woohooboy: "Beth doesn't allow grief to show because she knows that if she even begins to acknowledges it, she's probably afraid of how much it will consume her." What does this mean? "consume her"
Bill Wilson The pain will be too much for her to handle and she'll have a nervous breakdown
The hug scene reminds me of my mom. Her body tensed up before i even hugged her. Talk about awkward.
five dollahhh: Movies like this let us know we are not alone. There are other mothers that, for what ever reason, are unable or unwilling to show affection. Of course, it's not just mothers. I've often said that we can learn from our parents how NOT to be. Show the affection to your own children, five dollahhh, that you wish you had been shown. Take care.
Bill Wilson You can say that for most relationships. Somebody once told me that everyone on my staff thought I was a great boss -- what was my secret. I said, that's easy, I treat my staff exactly the opposite of how my boss treats me!
Dave Glo: You are an exception. Too often when one is maltreated they, in turn, maltreat others. You are a good role model.
Still my go to movie when I need a great flick...this is a classic ❤❤❤❤
I've always thought this scene as perfectly directed. Painful to watch, the shouting match between Sutherland and Moore in the golf course. But notice though how the next scene is a quick jump cut to a close-up of Ms. Moore's face while she's in the plane, presumably looking out. Can't quite fathom the expression. Is it one of remorse? Remorse for the vulgar display of anger directed towards Sutherland? Or is it an expression of fear? Maybe Beth, at this point in time, is genuinely afraid that her actions may have carried the hate and anger and animosity too far into the abyss that there is no turning back. Maybe she realizes that she has also contributed to Connie's mental state. Watch closely as she goes up the steps after Sutherland tells her that "He's not even sure if he still loves her anymore". The barely-contained walk up the steps and then the breakdown as she brings down a suitcase from the closet in the bedroom. Robert Redford films this so perfectly, everything is just calibrated to the right pitch, that it never feels too maudlin nor melodramatic. If I had the choice, I would have given the Oscar to Moore that year for Best Actress and Sutherland definitely deserved a nomination for his genteel, haunting performance as Calvin.
Mark Guevarra especially after Mary lost her son in a car crash and Timothy Hutton lost his father right before the movie came out
drawing from personal experience
Wow. I forgot about that. That makes the movie more personal and haunting. I love this film so much. Defintely in my Top Ten.
Christ, do your homework before posting. MTM's son died of an accidental gunshot wound, not a car crash. And his death was AFTER the filming! Moore may have had lots to draw on, but this wasn't it.
Garyb3397 Thank You for sharing that with us. But I think the other poster did mean well, you know?
If you don't have your facts straight, you shouldn't post.
Tough movie to watch but one of my favorites
Hopefully this was on the 18th green.
I believe it was.
I have used vignettes from Ordinary People when teaching about Forgiveness. Nothing is more devestating to A Parent than outliving a Child. Having compassion and Empathy for each other makes It possible for Us to
survive.
Faithfully and Lovingly Yours,
The Rev. Derrill B. ( Derk) Manley, Ph.D
She was extraordinay on that movie
She was extraordinary in this move. Too bad they didn't give her the Oscar.
She lost a son in real life, she did an incredible job in this movie.
+William MacDonald This was before her own loss.
+Brooke Hanley Creepy!
ReviewCam oh I thought it was just a coincidence
William MacDonald sad that her son died a month after this movie came out. 😞
Should have gotten an Oscar, she is so believable as a cold, soulless bitch.
Best picture ...best supporting actor ( Hutton ) ...best director ( Redford ).
We should have also seen Oscars for both Mary Tyler Moore and Donald Sutherland . They were all brilliant in this film . Mary lost her son in real life after Ordinary People . She stated in interviews that she did not believe she could have played Beth if he had died before this role .
I like these scenes. Pops finally grows some balls and stands up to the ol lady.
EmeAhG
Imo, he does it foe the wrong reasons. He never understood his wife to begin with, and that's the whole problem.
The dynamics in this family are clearly toxic.
She is not cold-hearted but in a verry different stage of grief, actually she hasn't even entered the grief stage yet. She is in clear denial. Conrad makes Bucks death real, because it's all he ever talks about, that's why she avoids him.
She also feels anger at him for.bringing her in this situation, but remember - - - Conrad did THE SAME.
He blames Buck for making them ride intp the ocean and getting into the storm, then not taking it serious, while making Conrad do all the work.
I'm just saying, don't write her off so easy, because a lot of this movie is about keeping up a pretense. All of them pretend to be ok. Conrad did that for the most part, and only managed to get better once he got therapy.
Can someone, anyone, please explain why Sutherland was not nominated for this movie and Judd Hirsch was? I mean Hirsch did a great job, but Sutherland deserved at least to be nominated.
He received an honorary years after
How there are not more scenes of this masterpiece in YT is beyond me.
There are now.
❤ classic movie. Could watch it forever.louis
Calvin made up his mind when Conrad went to hug his mom.
One of the tensest scenes ever. I always feel disturbed when I watch it. There is more tension here than a hundred of those stupid action movies together.
+AN Feuerstahl Totally agreed!
AN Feuerstahl: "One of the tensest scenes ever." Which one?
Movies back then were all about the acting and directing . Now we have over usage of special effects and violence . Most of the creativity and talent has left the building in this day and age .
1:45-1:50 at that moment it was time to call Mr. Grant and Rhoda to calm Beth.I
One of my all time favorite films .
I watched this Movie again After the Death of Mary Tyler Moore, now once again for Donald Sutherland!
Probably her best acting was the scene where she didn't say a word when Conrad hugs her and she has that stone cold look and then she has to shake it off and re collect herself.
😮 she didn't have a stone cold look her whole body froze up when her son held her and she looked bewildered as if she didn't know what to do as if she was uncomfortable if you looked at her face.
Donald Sutherland in "Ordinary People" from 1980 (leading male actor) and Mia Farrow in "Rosemary's baby" from 1968 (leading female actor) were the most SHAME of Academy in the movie history. 😖🤦🏻♂️
Both great actors, with ZERO nominations to Oscar. Unbelievable. 👎🏻
This is so real. She loved both her sons but LIKED her oldest who died. She could deal with the second son but the older sons death exposed that relationship.
Also, Calvin is SO RIGHT @ circa 1:18 while suddenly having it out with Beth: “Stop being such a NARCISSIST, and start being a little GENEROUS AND THOUGHTFUL once in a while, by thinking of others besides yourself! Like your own (surviving) son, not your “favorite” son, who’s now GONE and in HEAVEN, for Pete’s sake!” (I know that’s not what Calvin says, but he might as well have; as I’ve said before it’s plain to see Calvin knows by now what Conrad means by feeling hated by his own mom, the way she really seems to treat him like the “invisible kid,” never deigning to have anything to do with him, really, unless to speak to him about something important.
Really, the way Conrad's expression here at 2:00 is like, "This really is the LAST STRAW!" is why he does what he does later on, towards the end, reluctantly but readily admits that he and Beth can no longer go on putting on positive fronts, the time really has come to say,"This is it, Beth. I am no longer willing to play these games and abide by your rules." Heck, it even hits him that perhaps Buck's death really may not have anything to do with his wife's cold nature; perhaps deep down inside, this really is what Beth has been like, all these years- it really never was in her nature to be kindhearted, or even proud of her own kids' accomplishments.
I’m sure I said this before, but 1:04 and 1:10 are GREAT moments-Audrey and Ward each like “Are Beth and Calvin ARGUING?!” as they each walk past Beth and Calvin and notice this sudden change for the worse in them.
Mary Tyler Moore did an interview a long time ago where she said she was just playing herself when she played Beth. Quite a stretch from the character of Mary Richards.
Why didn't Mary Tyler Moore win? She was wonderful...always is...
Mary basically playing herself as Beth
MTM was robbed of the Oscar
His mother is so confused. It's a hug! It's not rocket science. Just put your arms around him and hug him back and be glad of it!
Thanks for the Upload 👍 !! I think MTM came off looking like a Villian unfortunately !!!
she was plastic and appearance oriented before the tragedy which makes it harder to deal with grief and admit something is wrong. Most likely ran in the family too, like when she told her mother conrad was in counseling - the grand-mother could only give a critical response about the dr's race yet conrad's welfare is at stake. That's pretty superficial. Also she calls out her brother for being "proud" about his swimming pool, another clue about dynamics on her side - in that other scene where she tells calvin it's no one's business conrad is seeing a dr it's very private matter etc. what's really bothering her is that conrad seeing a dr is a reminder they are no better than anyone else and she can't handle that because she always saw herself as "better than"" especially where buck was a high functioning achiever which played into being "better than"" she doesn't want to let go of superiority - to do so means defeat - a lot of it based on pride which prevents her from getting in touch with her grief
While it's probably well-thought that it is Calvin who is reminiscing of their disco days, I still believe it could be Beth too. He looks at her like, "What is she thinking about? What does she see when she shuts her eyes?" Even if the author, director, or actors told me otherwise, I think it could be both. Beth thinking of when life was so easy and carefree, and Calvin remembering when they were truly in love.
I’ve often thought it was supposed to be Calvin having that memory, of when they were still “happily married”(naturally, when Buck was alive), and they were having such great Times together as husband and wife. Times that were likely never to be had again, the way their marriage had gone.
As for Beth, right after their fight, when they’re on the plane home her expression seems to say “Perhaps I DID go a bit too far this time,” then tells herself, “Well, just forget about it for now, Beth, and go to sleep,” which she does, so as to give herself more time to simmer down after all the goings on of lately.
I assumed that it is Calvin's memory of them at their prom. (not disco lol) It could Beth's too, but since they were showing Calvin right before the flashback, it's his memory -- of when they were truly in love, as you wrote. Probably before they were married.
I don’t have the same level of sympathy that some have for Beth
I like Buck's and Audrey's expressions at about 1:05-"Are Beth and Calvin having a fight?" as they walk past Cal and Beth.
MrJamieMurph4141969 Yeah, they don't know they're about to get their assholes ripped by Beth when they dare suggest that she try to be happy.
@@wotan10950 Audrey's reaction to what her sister-in-law says,"See that all your kids are good and safe and have much less not drowned in that swimming pool you're so fond of!" sure underlines that,all like "Oh,BETH! How HORRIBLE!"
How can I defend this film winning Best Picture over "Raging Bull?" Scenes like this hit harder than Jake LaMotta.
This went from 1-100 mph. In a second.🤯
where r the other scenes
When conrad finally gives his mom a hug it's the first time she got a hug from her son since her other son died in a boating typhoon accident and after conrad tries suicide.
MTM... Great actress
I think it was more what Cal said to her. After Buck died, she died.
Hug scene gets me Everytime. He's tired and waves the white flag by hugging her.....and she doesn't seem to know how to properly reciprocate it. Sad
He's not tired; he's changed. He has found that he can live with himself for staying with the boat and is on the road to healing. He is genuinely reconciling with his parents (his dad in the final scene). He is healing faster than his parents now.
OMG this movie is so amazing
Good movie
The fact this won Best Picture over Raging Bull says a lot about the Academy’s values at the time.
Mary Tyler Moore, Donald Sutherland and Timothy Hutton.
thanks a lot man you have helped me with my assignment bro
This was a hard movie to watch though I never had any real life experience w/the subject/theme of the movie - fortunately !
It’s so sad u can see all he wants is his mothers love
I could have sworn there was a bit where the guy from texas does a pessimistic golfer impression
She is so cold!
Trying to edit their surviving son out of their life.
I love this scene. I have always had a HUGE crush on Mariclare Costello.
I think I finally got something.
Damn - this whole family dynamic is just sooooo toxic, it's beyond fucked up. Hlnestly, these people are all wrong for each other, and their son's death is only the catalyst to bring this to the surface.
The mother wants her husband to consider her too. Her husband is only thinking about his son, assuming he's the one to havd it worst. In truth, this is clearly not the case. Thd mother suffers just as much, if not more; only that she is in a different stage of grief, at the very beginning stage, while her son managed to get past that - and he only did so because of his therapist.
Think about it, the father reveals to the therapist, that he believes Co rad to be most like his wife. And he specifically mentions "They were the only ones who did not cry during the funeral."
And it is truer than one would believe on first viewing. I just thought about it; she is coping with this trauma the o ly way she is comfortable with, the way that comes easiest to her. She controls her emotions in order to not have people worry about her and appear strong (the same Conrad wishes to be during the very first session with his therapist - he literally tells the guy he wants to control his emotions.). She wants to control her emotions and not feel certain things, an because she is taking this to the extreme, she ends up controlling most of her other emotions as well, and doesn't even feel them - just like Conrad in the beginning.
Because if she does allow emotions in, even the good ones, than chances are much higher she will have to deal with the bad ones tol (grief, pain, fear). Look at the end, and see what happens whe she looses control of her emotions. She breaks down.
I believe that during the final scene, the mother is exactly at the same stage that Conrad was in, when he tried to commit suicide. Everything starts cracking down. You lose control.
Also - remember that she shared a very special bond with her deceased son. So this is even harder for her, in a way, than it is for her husband and Conrad.
And yes, it is true that she is angry at Conrad too for not being able to help Buck and making this all about himself (with tze suicide) but remember - that's natural too!
Conrad himself is angry at Buck for not being serious, for being too rash and having Conrad do all the work on the boat. He feels, imo, that it is Buckies fault for getting them into danger, and essentially making Conrad watch his own brothers death.
One more thing.
Conrad and his ma are literally talking past one another.
While Conrad is on his way to get past this whole trauma, she most certainly isn't. He is taking his final steps towards the end of the tunnel, and uses his mother (in a way) to get clarification on certain aspects. The problem is - and this what causes the whole tension between them - they are at very different stages.
While conrad is comfortable enough to talk about the past, his mother is still very much in denial.
It can't ever work out, because Conrad just keep.bringing up her desd son whenever he is with them. He reminds her of Buck's death. While she is clearly, trying to live in denial about this fact very much.
Isn't the whole first half about just that? Think about it, she is playing golf, hosting dinners, traveling Europe - all things she did when things were still ok. She simply doesn't want to admit the truth into her mind just yet.
She honestly eve acts as though buck were still around. So keeping Conrad away is essential to her sanity, because whenever she sees him, she can't possibly.escape.the reality of the situation.
Which is pricely the reason she doesn't want him around while she is traveling.
Anothdr thing I just remembered! - all of those above activitkes were social getaways really, for show, more than anything else, as she clearly doesnt want her friends to assume anything is wrong.
Christmas was the only big event she wasn't comfortable going through with, because of.it's private nature. Christmas is all about love and family after all. She wouldn't have managed to go through with it (and she didn't, did she? She left in the taxi before.things got too much for her. Her way of coping was to get away after all, pretend things didn't happen. She gets away from her son, and now that her husband cpnfronts her too, she gets away from both of them.)
She has absolutely nobldy to go to. Conrad has his father and his therapist and his friends too. But his mom is all by herself, and both him and his father give her the fault. Too for being emotionless, and cold hearted.
They simply don't understand her either, and that's the crus of it all.
These people arn't good for each other, and Buck's death only brought to the surface, a bunch of issues that were there from the very beginning.
I think you have a very valid interpretation. I also believe she suffers as much as Calvin and Conrad, but she doesn’t have (and doesn’t want) the tools to deal with her grief and anger. She is trapped in her own hopelessness.
She should had received the Oscar
I would love to have seen Mary Tyler Moore play Harriet Craig.
There was, but they got taken down for "you-know-what."
MTM was so good in this
I almost cringe for her at 2:09 when she has start talking about "the swimming pool your so proud of..."
gattaca5000 I interpreted that a bit differently. I think Beth went off on her brother because he said she should just be happy. And she's basically saying she can never be happy again, and that neither could he if he lost a child. I don't agree with her, but I can understand where she's coming from. Conrad, on the other hand, is finally able to work through his guilt and pain, and you know he'll be happy again. Beth probably will never be happy.
@@wotan10950 Finally, someone who gets it!
@@wotan10950 her brother said, "we just want you to be happy." And she validly responds, don't try to tell me about being happy when you haven't lost a child. And frankly, while I think he was sincere, he wants to gloss over everything and present a front of everything is OK. He is like Beth in that way, no surprise as they were raised by the same parents. The scene with their mother shows how she could create children like that. That was what your comment brought up for me.
How dare a father suggest they bring their son on a trip
How dare a father think about his troubled son while on a trip, as any loving parent would. Yes indeed.
I think that Beth just wanted to run away from problems and losses. Bringing along Conrad would’ve continually reminded her of her tragedies.
@@wotan10950 That's why they went on this trip without him.
fyi...I personally felt the same way, ¨total emptiness¨, when I hugged my father's 3rd wife...its unreal, yet very true...after that first embrace, I would call them by their first name, but never mom! go figure...
Calvin mentions to Beth to say if their son Conrad would like Pinehurst, then Beth starts by changing the subject like she doesn't want to know about Conrad. And their huge row starts on the golf course. That Beth is absolutely nothing but a cold, hostile and a narcissistic person.
She didn't change the subject initially. Her immediate reaction is anger that Calvin mentioned including Conrad on their next vacation. Then she wants to change the subject, but Calvin challenges her to "finish what you started."