Outdoor wood boiler to pole barn in floor radiant heat plumbing.
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 20 เม.ย. 2022
- The plumbing connecting an outdoor wood boiler to an in floor radiant heat system for a pole barn, using a mixing valve, plate heat exchanger, pressure tank, circulator pump and and supply/return manifolds. The single pump in the barn (running the two manifolds with 8 loops) is a grundfoss 15-58fc, and the two pumps on the back of the boiler are grundfoss 26-99 (one for the house and one for the barn, each feeding a 40 plate exchanger).
OWB barn loop parts list:
AMT30, Amtrol extrol expansion tank ex-30, 4.4 gallon
CLI551028A, Discal air separator, sweat
CLI521609A, Caleffi thermostatic mixing valve, sweat
HWCPE40WW1, 40 plate heat exchanger, 160K BTU
TACSR-501, TACO 1-zone switching relay for circulators.
Grundfoss 15-58FC circulator pump
The manifold was just a nine zone stainless steel jobber off of amazon.
Thermostat of your choosing, I just used an old air sensing dial type with plans on installing an in-floor sensor (empty pex line in the floor just for this) but the air type has worked well for 3 years now.
I used unions with high temp gaskets for the plate exchanger so if it ever needs cleaning it’s easy to separate from the system. You’ll also need flanges for the circ pump and all the associated pipe and fittings. The pressure tank and air separator are mounted using strut clamp system. The plate exchanger is mounted with a bracket I made out of some sheet aluminum. - แนวปฏิบัติและการใช้ชีวิต
Great simple setup and video!
Thank you.
Wow! That’s quite a setup! Nice!
Thanks for taking the time to make this. Super helpful!
My pleasure, is why I started doing these videos.
Clarified many things for me. Thanks so much for making this!
My pleasure.
This is great!
Thanks for sharing.
This is incredibly helpful/informative. Getting ready to pour concrete for my slab and after months of planning, and just realized an outdoor boiler might be a good alternative to LP in the future. Good to know I could pretty easily modify the system with mostly just a plate exchanger - definitely going to consider this when I hang my circuit. Thank you!
Glad it helps, this was one of my very first videos, and I made it because I couldn't find any videos on the topic.
Awesome video thank you!
My pleasure!
Thank you for making this video 👍
My pleasure!
Good information.
Well done!
Thank you
Thanks for the awesome video! Much appreciated!
Question for you on the actual cement flooring. Did you insulate under the concrete to keep the radiate heat from going in the ground? As far as insulation what did you use? Sorry I am doing this project myself and I am a little clueless. Thanks for the help!
Hi, thanks for watching and taking the time to comment/question. It's why I started the channel... after the concrete guys prepped the ground (grading and compacting), I laid 10mil plastic over the entire ground and up the wall edges. Then I put down 2 inch pink foam board (foamular xps), both on the bottom and the vertical edges a couple inches higher than the depth of the concrete. Then graphed/planned my zones, built a tubing uncoiler, snapped chalk lines in a 1' grid over the entire floor, then laid the 1/2" pex, stapling every 3 ish feet.. You want your zones to be around 300 feet, and as close in length as can be. I have eight zones, and they range in length from around 280-310'. Bigger rolls of pex have length printed on them, so it makes it easier to know how much you've put down...
Why does the pump need to be within a short distance to the pressure tank on the heat side? Just bought a house with garage in floor heat and he has it on the return side before mixing valve. Still making heads or tails of this set up. Thanks for the helpful video!
Check out this video, weird physics of the tank and pump placement...
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Your circulator "pump" in the barn should be mounted vertically. This helps with cavitation and longer pump life. Everything else looks pretty good. What brand manifolds are those?
Hi and thanks for for taking the time to comment. I ordered the manifolds off Amazon, brand is vivo. I made sure the pump motor was parallel to the ground, but didn't come across anything about flow being vertical. How does being vertical help with preventing cavitation?
@@twosawacres8096 I've been researching hydronic heating all winter. I'm heating a mid 19th century farmhouse, solely with wood, using a wood furnace and forced air. Time for an outdoor unit to save time and labor. My plans call for multiple circulators in the secondary loop. This will provide the necessary floor required for my needs. All my research noted to install the circulators vertically. I commented to you what I remember off the top of my head.
Does the pressure tank need to be at the highest point like you have it? I have a tight space i am trying to fit into and it would work best if the top of the pressure tank was at or below the top of the manifold
Just a disclaimer, I'm not a professional plumber or HVAC guy, but my understanding through my research is that the height of the expansion tank is not all that important. What is important is to have the tank on the inlet side of the circulator pump with a foot or two distance between them. I chose my tank location based on the pump location, then because my tank mounts to the Caleffi air separator, which should be at the top (air rises in the system).
How did you fill that ?
How did you figure how much You need for the fill ?
I do not plan on using Glycol. Just keep the Water moving and it will not Freeze.
I'm doing in Floor for My 30x40 shop and keep the temp low. and then a home made wall mounted radiator/fan combo to quickly heat up the place. I am going to have some in-ground Ice melt loops around the front of My buildings too. That I was thinking of Glycol
Mike M Central Wis.
1/2 pex holds just under a gallon per 100 ft, I had 2400' of pex in the floor, plus the 1 inch plumbing at the manifold, so I ball parked 25 gal total. I did use glycol, I wanted the option to completely shutdown the system and not worry, broken pipes in concrete is not something I ever want to think about. Mixed at 60/40 water/ glycol, I had to get two 5 gal buckets of glycol, then I used a large Rubbermaid tote and filled it with the mix, a sprinkler pump with inlet and return hoses submerged in the solution, hooked up to the manifold, using the zone valves to direct flow, filled the system and bleed air at the same time. Thanks for the comment and good luck...
Hi, I am installing a near identical system; a wood boiler (Earth Brand), to supply in-floor radiant heat tubing. Did you do the plumbing yourself, or have a plumber install? I definitely need help, and am over my head on this. Thanks!
I did the 99.9% of the plumbing, I didn't have a 1.25" pex crimper so I had a plumber buddy of mine bring his crimper over for the 8 crimps, I did everything else. Just take your time and plan it out. I've made several videos of just about the entire process but am more than happy to share/help anyway I can. Ground prep, I laid plastic sheeting on the dirt, then the foam board, then the pex, set up the manifolds...etc. If you're not comfortable with sweating copper pipes, I'd practice (it's really not hard), but you could just use pex and shark bites. set up the plate exchanger/manifold/pressure tank/pump plumbing similar to what you saw in the video. I've never done anything like this before either, took me several months to nail down exactly how I was going to do it. I actually thought that I would be pumping the boiler water straight into the floor. Steep learning curve, but totally doable.
Thanks for uploading this! I am just about to build my system, have the floor manifolds in and pressurized. I do have a couple questions tho.....the plate exchanger I have is labeled q1,q2,q3,q4 not sure if this, a 30 plate, is a universal design and how did you size the circulating pump for the floor space you have to heat. I cannot seem to find that info , thankyou again !
I think the q1 labeling is just the ports. There are formulas to calculate btu requirements based on several factors. I just had a chat with a good buddy that's been in the business for 40 years. I used a 40 plate for each, the house and barn, 1800sqft and 2400 sqft respectively. 3 years now and very happy with results, so you could just estimate off that for your size. Can't really go wrong with oversize exchanger.
Thank you for that, much appreciated!
Crazy question, is there a better way I can get ahold of you, I’m trying to get mine hooked up and I’d like to ask a few questions?
Twosawacres@gmail.com
Thanks for making the video! It gave me some insight into doing a closed system along with my wood boiler after many trials of trying to get an open system to work I tried this closed loop. I am unfortunately having the same issues with the closed as I did the open. I lose flow. When all bled it starts at .8gpm per line and holds for probably 5 min then eventually falls to minimal flow. Not even registered on flow meters. System is holding pressure. Out of things to try!!! Any input would be appreciated ,thank you!
If you can send me a photo, that would help. Sounds like aeration though. Email is; twosawacres@gmail.com for photo of the setup.
Thank you!
@@nickjohnson7468 Did you fix your issue ? What ended up happening ?
@@LORFCASTER yes, it is fixed. It ended up that the transfer pump that I had bled the lines with was not big enough and air remained in some of my in slab lines. Use a 1/2hp transfer pump if bleeding system.
I have the same size polebarn and live in mid michigan. Getting ready to plumb my boiler to my floor and i was planning on doing the same way as you, glad i ran across your video. How much more wood do you think you burn a season than before heating your garage?
Ironically, the real reason I got the boiler was to heat the barn...lol. two seasons ago we used only a wood stove in the house, 17 cord, (but it doesn't heat the basement). 2nd season I went through 60+ but the barn attic was not insulated till feb. 3rd season, 55 face total, house and barn, upstairs and down from 11nov-9april. Barn around 50deg, house 70ish.
@@twosawacres8096 thanks for the info. My barn is r19 walls and r30 ceiling.
@@seangorman6341 that should be good, I used r21 in the walls and 72 bags of blown in insulation in overhead, was about 24" deep, probably settled a bit since.
Did you install a thermostatic return valve on the water from the boiler. This ensures that you don’t drop the boiler water colder than 150 f which helps prevent sulphuric acid from condensing inside the boiler
I did not, I'll look into it though. Of all the prep I did for this I do not remember reading about that. Where exactly would it go?
right before the plate heat exchanger @@twosawacres8096
the mixing valve is only supplied by the cooler water exiting the system? is that right?
Actually, it has two inputs, cooled water from the floor and hot water from the plate exchanger, and one output, which has mixed temp water to the system.
What did that system cost you roughly just for the stuff on the walls to hook up I’m looking at a place that has the lines run but the in floor heat is not hooked up
I'll check later for a more exact number, but probably around 1k. The pump, manifold and plate exchanger are the big ticket items, a couple hundred each, then the other items add up (controller, pressure tank, air separator, mixing valve...)
Could you explain the purpose of the mixing valve a little more please?
Love the setup!
Sure thing, was new to me till I told my plumbing specialist friend my plan! Lol. The concrete cannot handle the high temps, tends to crack it, so the mixing valve mixes the cooler water returning from the floor with heated water from the plate exchanger to give a lower temp (125ish) output back to the floor.
would you mind listing the parts and where you got them? Thanks man that was helpful@@twosawacres8096
is there a better way to ask you some questions about your system? Thanks@@twosawacres8096
@@jeremykillebrew5232 sorry I haven't got back about the list of parts, crunch time around here prepping for winter. You can email me, twosawacres@gmail.com.
So ball park fiuger how much did it cost ,I'm looking at doing a 40x64 barn
Depends on your set up. In floor or forced air? Wood boiler or on demand water heater? My 40x60 barn in floor only (not including the owb or plumbing to and from) is probably around 3500. 3k ft of pex and 80 sheets of 2" xps foam insulation for under the concrete add up pretty quick.
No water heater or storage tank to store the hot water after it comes out of the plate exchanger? Every other video I see online has a tank of some sort but I like your design much better.
No need for water storage with an outdoor wood boiler, as it is the storage tank, and this one holds just shy of 500 gallons. Heated at the boiler, goes in two separate loops, one to the house and one to the barn, goes through plate exchangers then back to the boiler to be reheated. Thanks for taking the time to comment, if you got any questions I'll try my best...
So if I am understanding you correctly the boiler water runs through the plate exchanger and the water/glycol mix on the other side of the exchanger that heats the floor heats up instantly? You are able to eliminate the water heater or storage tank because you basically have instant hot water?
More or less you are correct, the loops on the boiler side circulate continuously no matter what is or is not calling for heat, when the house or barn call for heat, their own circulator pump kick on and run it through the respective plate exchangers. So yes, sort of like on demand hot water. If nothing is calling for heat, the hot water in the boiler simply makes a round trip and back into the boiler, when the boiler senses the water temp is low (I have mine to kick on at 170 and off at 180, which is pretty typical) it opens air baffles and turns on blower fans to stoke the fire, at 180 deg it shuts down. This winter has been pretty mild in northern Michigan, and I've had many days where nothing calls for heat all day and my water temp gets a little too high, so I just turn up the temp in the barn for 30 min...
Thanks for the information. I would have bought a hot water heater I didn't need had I not seen this.
What brand plate exchanger do you have?
@@natefrodl6026 I'll have to get back to you later on the exact brand, but both are 40 plate, one I ordered through my local plumbing supply store, the other I ordered with the bulk of my supplies through Z-supply, they label it HXP-40. Honestly, all the parts from both places seem to be pretty solid, I have zero complaints. Actually, 2 of the three circulator pumps I ordered were from Z-supply and they were both grundfos, just like the one I got from my local store and similarly priced.
Am I missing a gauge to monitor the systems pressure?? I will be hooking my system up this week and I’m worried about over pressurizing the system.
I do not have a pressure gauge on either boiler loop or the secondary barn loop. The boiler is open air so it can't over pressurize, and the barn is a closed system with just a circulator pump and tank, no real threat of over pressure there. I thought the same as you till I talked with a couple of my plumber/ hvac buds. My house has an lp boiler with a gauge, which makes sense, an actual heart source in a closed loop system, but even that has a pressure relief valve. Install one or not, you'll be fine either way.
@@twosawacres8096 after I watched your video and got to thinking that’s what I come up with because of the heat exchanger. The guy who built my system doesn’t respond to my emails or calls so I’m on my own starting this thing up. Thx for the response and again great video
@@CWBKC typical!
What size pump did you use?
For the boiler side, two grundfoss 26-99 pumps, for the in-floor loops of the barn, it's a single grundfoss 15-58. Hope this helps and thanks for the comment and watching.
How did you size the expansion tank
I wish I had a technical answer for you, but I just worked with a friend of mine at the local plumbing specialty store, he recommended my pump, tank and mixing valve for the system then I did the install.
How many gallons of antifreeze did you have to use.
I bought two 5 gallon buckets. 1/2 pex holds about 0.92 gallons per 100ft. I put down 2400ft of pex, plus the manifolds and copper plumbing.
I need this system for my setup.. Do you have a link or info on who makes this panel ready to go? Or at least a parts list you can post? Crazy they want like $1800 for a ready made panel, I can't see how it adds up to that or even close in parts... thanks..
Hello, I'm unaware of any premade panels like this, but I'm sure it could be done. I installed my setup piece by piece. I will start working on a parts list though, you are not the first one to ask and I've fielded many question regarding the specific components. I'll keep you posted.
Okay thanks that would be great. I have the skills to do it but I don't have the time.. but paying $1,800 or more for a premade one seems excessive for what it consist of. If you could come up with a parts list that would be great and I would take the project on. Thank you.. ( I'm also in Mi.)
@@twosawacres8096 any chance you had a moment to do this? Like you said, there is no help out here for this.
I just got a quote for $2500 from a company for this panel.. when I asked what was on it and a couple other questions they told me sorry and good luck.. they didn't even try to answer my questions.. so now I'm determined to follow your example.. makes me wish I went with a different heat source. Thank you
@@leinhit I'll try to get something put together in the next few days, been working on another video..lol. just to be clear, you just want the info on the items in the barn?
@@twosawacres8096 yes the panel in the barn... If I had a parts list and maybe a diagram or a clear picture of the panel. I tried to screenshot and freeze the video, but it's not as clear. Basically starting with the heat exchanger and the floor side of the panel.. since the wood stove side is just hooking up a supply and return to the heat exchanger. I really appreciate you doing this there's just isn't any information out there and the rudeness and refusal of this last company to even answer a couple simple questions before I spent $2,500 with them. Really drives at home I need to do this and see exactly how much it will cost me to do myself.. thank you! I appreciate the extra effort on your part.
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Central boiler says to run these 6 to 24 inches in the ground lol
Agreed, but where I live the frost line can easily get to 3 plus feet under plowed areas. So if I ever have to leave the house or shut the system down for extended times, the buried lines will not freeze before what is in the tank/boiler.