I bought this water heater th-cam.com/users/postUgkx8G49mV71sAzUl9shXyLW-r3XgHH9EVh1 for use in my bus conversion. I installed it under my kitchen sink and it is fed by a high efficiency on-demand LP water heater. It is both a backup hot water source as well as a water saving device since we have hot water on demand rather than having to wait for the gas on demand water heater to finish its ignition cycle. I decided on this water heater due to the fact that it only draws 1300watts when it's ON instead of the 1500 watts that most Water heaters this size draw. In an RV a couple hundred watts can be a big deal. With very low standby losses, I don't have to worry about excessive power consumption. When propane is not available for our gas water heater, in conjunction with our low flow shower head there is enough hot water available to shower, albeit we won't be taking "hotel showers." Also very happy with the recovery rate of this water heater. Granted, it is quite small, but it does exactly what we need it to do.
Hi Bill, Beautiful no-nonsense system you have there. And I agree that there is a complete lack of information on TH-cam concerning heating your home like this. And you're smart to use a "closed" system. Great video.
I live off grid in north Idaho and I have used your information on my mountain home. It works great! I use propane and a wood heater to keep warm. Thanks to you for the post!
Hi ! I do too have off grid property ,and I'm thinking of using water heater to heat it, how much electricity does the pump use ? to power it with batteries , not to run the generator all day long
Hello Sir. I liked your video. Great job. Glad to hear the system is working. I notice the Grundfos pump is onstalled with the motor turned up vertical. If you read the Grundfos manual it will say that is NOT a way to mount the pump. The pump can be mounted horizontal like you have but the motor needs to be mounted on it side. Just rotate the assembly 90 deg. THe pump motor will last much longer. Infloor radsiant is the best.
Thank you for going over the normal stuff most people have questions to!!!!! This is a perfect go to video on how the system works. Now I finally have an educational tutorial to show folks! Thank you!!!!
I’ve heard similar stories. A grand or so for the water heater beats a boiler price all day n a diy accomplishment is by all means a blessing. The $5k u saved here got u something else. That’s kinda way of life I practice.
Just what I was looking for. I currently use a wood boiler to heat my house but have wanted to switch over to a hi-efficiency water heater instead so I don't have to continually fill the wood boiler. Like you, I have searched for an example to learn from and yours is an excellent system in its simplicity. I like it with few parts as that makes for less things to fail in the long run. Good job Professor Gadget.
You hit on a lot of points to this system... I honestly think your video is the most sensical one with information and basic workings of your system..... I don't have a heater, last winter it got to 22F in the house. Which we're from the city, we're used to a nice warm 70s in the winter... :O I'm trying to look at all what is there for a material list... 4 shut of valves, pressure meter, air separator, cold/hot manifolds, thermostat unit, water heater, antifreeze and some pex pipe with various elbows.
Ill make this quick and to the point. Your circulator is installed incorrectly, you have the motor in the vertical position which allows air to get caught around the water lubricated shaft. Read your grundfos manual it has diagrams. Your circulator is not pumping away from the expansion tank. This means you are moving the water through your system with a negative pressure, this is why you are having air problems. Next, You are still using the 150 lb relief valve that came with the water heater, it is now a boiler and the relief valve must be changed to a 30 lb valve. If anything change that relief valve. Also corrosion in closed loop heating systems is caused by Oxygen. Oxygen is cooked out of the water in the first few hours, I work on systems that are over 100 years old and still rethread the steel pipe like it was new. On the other hand, Propylene glycol deteriorates into glycolic acid and must be tested yearly. Last but not least you left no way to isolate and drain your expansion tank for yearly air testing. This means you will have to drop the system pressure and introduce air just to check the bladder pressure.
Thank you for your interest. The answer to some common Questions, I have a separate water heater for hot water. My gas bill for December 2020 was $48.31. The thermostat was set at 70 degrees. This is the 4th year I've had this system with no issues. I sized it based on my experience. For many years I lived in a 1000 square ft poorly insulated house that had a 64,000 BTU furnace in this area. So it seemed reasonable that a 60,000 BTU power vent water heater would work. It never runs anywhere near capacity, usually about 3.5 hours per day. If your instructions say to mount the pump differently DO IT mine did not.
If it works, that's what really matters! I run a wood Boiler to heat 3000 sq.ft and am going inside next season, as i'm tired of cutting, splitting, stacking and ash-ing 6-8 cords of wood a Winter. Your set up is as simple as it can and needs to be. Not good business for either, over-paid pipe-wrenchers and/or the plumbing fitting industries!! Like it
Excellent commentary. I love it when you say concrete. So many people say cement and and much rather walk on concrete then cement. Great job! I put two or three hot water systems in like that wood fired oil fired wood oil combo they talk about green energy. Should be a law and a new home in the cold zone of the United States should have radiant for heat. Save so many dollars.
one suggestion. If you have several separate zones, each controlled by its own thermostat, you can get by with a smaller water heater, since most of the time all three zones won't be calling for heat at the same time. You can also initially heat up each zone individually so the water heater will keep up with that high demand situation. Great video and explanation. Thanks
Good morning from Canada. I was looking over your system, and you should change the pump motor to the side. If you look at the manufacture instruction the motor has to be on its side. Here is a video to show you th-cam.com/video/UvrR5ZAkf10/w-d-xo.html To remove the air, install a drain cock before the return side ball valve and when you are filling, open the supply side, keep your return valve closed, and let the air come out of the drain cock. This works and makes this removal easy. Glycol, only use a propylene base. Looks good, but we recommend using the stainless of brass manifolds which have the flow gauge on them to show you have flow in all the loops. Water is tricky, it will take the shortest way back to the heat source. Enjoy the warmth as you are one of the smart ones that know you have a great heating system, that cost peanuts to run. Way to go! To help in figuring what size of a heater to use, take an average of 20 BTU's per Square Foot. (Example 1500sf x 20 = 30,000 required.)
If you could please explain the part about air removal in more detail I would really appreciate it. I built this exact system and started filling it tonight. I'm having trouble with filling and getting the air out. Thanks in advance
I use a similar system to heat my garage only I use my hot water tank from the house and mine is a open loop system so it's always using fresh water as hot water is used in house. Been running for about 12 years with no issues. Love radiant heat
Nice job for helping the dying crowd. I'd like to point out a few things. The boiler, or water heater in this case, should be before the pump to properly vent the tank which is at the lowest pressure drop point in the system. Hydronic pumps are engineered for much higher water tends than your 120 degree supply. There would be a vent fitting such as the air scoop you have after the heater. The tubing used in a radiant system MUST be cross linked polyethylene with an oxygen barrier if any components in the system are ferrous metal, even with anti-freeze which breaks down over time and must be replaced. Thanks for posting.
I installed almost exactly the same thing in my house back in the mid 80's which was unusual at the time especially here in Tennessee. It has worked well with little maintenance. I have exactly the same Grundfos pump and I have had to replace it once. Except for the in tubing in the slab I did all the above floor work myself. I only run my water temperature at about 100 degrees which was what was recommended at the time. I suppose the reason you only have to run it about 2-3 hrs. per day is because you have a 120 degree water temp.
Thanks much,I have wood boiler and floor heat in my buildings I did myself, was wondering how to do a backup system with water heaters,looks pretty easy!
I have a system for floor heat to supplement the forced air . Couple comments, mine has a separate loop for each room , a thermostatically controlled pump on each , so each room can be controlled separately. It is a closed system with a heat exchanger plumbed so the heat from the household water heater is used as heat source. It has a air bleed at the high point in each loop , just a tire valve like what is used on chloride filled tires
Mr. Professor Gadget, Thank you for this informative video. I was elated when I found it. You mentioned that a person could submit their floor plan to either nimco, nemco, or possibly nibco for a hydronic system layout. I was unsuccessful at finding where and how to contact the company you mentioned. I would appreciate some guidance. Once again, great video. Ken
suggest you turn your pump so the shaft is not sitting vertically. The bearings will support the shaft if you have motor armature horizontal where the bearings can support the motor shaft. Just figured you would not want to need to change out the pump prematurely.
You need to rotate your pump 90 degree in the horizontal plane. Consult the manufacturer's instructions. It will fail prematurely if you don't. I have nine of them in my home, one for each of my seven radiant zones, one for my Burnham radiant boiler and one for the domestic hot water return line. My pump for the domestic hot water was originally installed the same as yours and it failed prematurely. You have a great heating system. I originally wanted to use hot water tanks for mine as they are more suited to radiant floors then boiler units, but the BTU calculation for my home was too high. I heat 4800 square foot of living space and a 1000 square attached garage. I believe my 110,000 BTU calculation was too high. In twenty years, I have never seen all seven zones calling for heat at the same time, not even during last week's blizzard.
I would love to see your set up. We have a bunch of zones and I'm trying to figure everything out myself. We have about that size on one floor, then a work floor with another bunch of sq footage, but most wont need heated much. Im looking at hybrid heat pump water heater. Anyway, Id love love to see your set up
I think your energy bill would be lower if you used straight distilled water and no anti-freeze. Also blow out the water annually from the hot water heater and PEX. It is just water, so it can go down the drain. This removes sludge from the bottom of the hot water heater. With your water heater depressurized, remove the sacrificial anode rod from the top of the water heater, replace it when it looks like it is being used up. You might want to replace this rod annually.. It is cheap insurance. If your pump needs to be oiled, this would be a good time to do so. Best wishes.
If you had in line shut off valves on one side of the manifold you can fill one run at a time to eliminate air in the system. You can also control the flow if you get a area that's hotter then the rest of the house. You will always have a run that flows better then another. Just my 2 cents.
The only problem I see is that your pump motor is installed vertically and they say to not ever mount them in that orientation. Otherwise I really appreciate your detail and information!
I imagine there is still air in the top of the water tank. I would think the easiest and fastest way to purge the air from the system would be to loosen the anode and bleed the air there. Nice setup, thanks for sharing.
@Hay Day admittedly no, but I've been in a few water heaters and I know that on most of them, the outlet nipple has a tube that extends into the tank a few inches, leaving an area at the top of the tank that can trap air.
Clever, but can't help thinking a small, condensing gas boiler would have been simpler yet more economical. Open vented appliances are unavoidably inefficient due to the constant draft up the flue even when the burner is not lit. A sensibly sized gas boiler would modulate to the required load, and on a UFH system would operate in condensing mode the majority, of not all of the time. The system could also be dosed with inhibitor to protect the boiler and other components- given the volume of a water heater this would be impractical.
Look up the reviews on condensing boilers...very expensive (compared to conventional tank water heater), and they require yearly maintenance to descale, and they throw error codes and stop working frequently.
Did the same thing to my house boiler went out companies wanted thousands so I cut it out and put in a water heater works great and since it’s electric if I lose power a small generator heats my home as is all is normal
Nice and simple. I might suggest swapping those 2 copper manifolds for a radiant manifold. The radiant manifold doesn't need to be fancy but it will allow you to balance the flow of each run of pipe. They are very user friendly. There is a gauge for each run, just turn knobs till they are equal, then if you want you can turn up or down areas of the house to adjust comfort.
If all the PEX runs are the same length, 250' in this case, the fancy manifold is not necessary. I use them when there are many loops at different lengths and/or multiple zones on the manifold. Otherwise, copper manifold are fine and have far less resistance.
A reliable,simple, flexible, economical, low maintenance heating system. It will last 30+years i think except thermocouple replacement in 10 years. Lower the gas pressure to 3iwc and recover some heat from flue pipe will increase efficiency to 80+%. That is good enough but please install CO detector all times
I have a single zone system like yours, it has been operating for over 15 years now. I use a 40 gal. H/w tank my only issue with this setup is about every 6 or 7 years I have to replace the tank, never for leaking issues, always for gas valve or burner stuff. I'm on my 3rd tank now so other than that it is great! Heats a 400 sq foot office in my Pole barn. Cost about $300.00 a year to so. Around 300 gal. of propane. And by the way your pump is infact mounted wrong it should be vertical? Thanks
Cool idea, however, water heaters don't last as long and don't have as many sensors and safety devices as boilers. For others, looking to do this, do your research, there are many codes and rules for hydronics. Here's what's installed incorrectly: 1. should be a drip leg on gas line 2. TPR valve on water heaters are 150 PSI, should be switched out with a 30 psi boiler TPR. 3. Pump should be oriented 90 degrees and it should be on the supply side after the air scoop for proper air removal 4. Should be 18" of straight pipe before air scoop 5. Primary loop lines should be at least 1" for that many loops. 6. Galvanized fittings not recommend 7. Distilled water is not recommended in hydronics as it actually leaches metals from other items. 8. the cap on the air vent should be loose to allow air to escape. Pex should be oxygen barrier type 9. There should be a low water cut off device. If it leaks water and empties the tank, the air in the water heater can boil, ruin the water heater and create very high pressure
yes all of that and more. think of how much cleaner that install would have been if those incorrect manifolds would be turned around.plumber for 49 yrs
You sound super knowledgable. Im working on trying to design my system and discovered hybrid hot water tanks. We have 11000 sq feet in our building to heat. Though its the PNW and the typical heat requirement in winter is only 30-40 degree difference. Much of the loops will be kept near 60 degrees as they are rooms not being used much. But the main living space we will have it warmer. Do you recommend a closed loop system with the water and antifreeze or glycol? Then another hot water tank for the domestic usage?
WOW!!!! THANKS FOR THIS GREAT INFO, AND EXPLANATION!!.. I HAVE A SMALLER HOUSE, (IT'S ONLY ABOUT 864 SQ. FT.) I WANT TO INSTALL A SIMILAR "SIMPLE" SYSTEM, USING A "TWIN" HOT WATER TANK SYSTEM (ONE TANK (OR TANKLESS HEATER?), USING NATURAL GAS, THE ADDITIONAL "BACK-UP" HEATER WILL BE ELECTRIC ( SO THAT IT CAN BE HEATED FROM POWER FROM A "BACK-UP" GENERATOR, OR, COMED., IF NECESSARY.
Great video thank you. Would you mind answering a few questions. 1. How much did the Hot water tank cost. 2. How many linear feet is your 1 zone loop 3. Do you wish you would of installed multiple zones 4. Have you experienced where the the water heater would not keep up with heat demand. 5. What are your coldest months. Thank You so much. Where I am from WA, colder months can be below 10 deg at night. Thank You
The water heater cost about $600.00. The length is about1500 feet. No regrets, It is an open floor plan ranch house. On the coldest days in our area near Chicago the temperature can be below zero with single digit highs. We keep the thermostat at 70 degrees and the system runs about 50 percent of the time.
at 8:59 it looks like you tightened your air/water separator vent screw all the way down. i believe you want that loose so air that gets generated can escape. check your model though. mine you dont touch ever. its set from the factory.
Thanks for the great and simple video. I'm doing the exact same set up in my shop. My question would be is how much antifreeze/water goes in the water heater? Mine is a 40 gallon. I have my lines in the floor filled and most of the air purged out just not sure of the water heater.
Just read the instruction on the back of the antifreeze jug about mixture ratios; it all depends on where you live BUT since you aren’t using this in a cars radiator, I’d venture to say you can go thinner than recommended (aka use less antifreeze since the system will be “inside”). An average car takes a 50/50 ratio for “normal” climates. Add more or less based on the jug recommendations. if you do go buy antifreeze, buy the concentrate and not the premixed kind as you will be needing LOTS of it and you’d also just be buying 50% water with the 50/50 mix…. It’s great for topping off cars in a hurry but when changing the whole system out, you’re just wasting money.
I would like to build a system with a propane hot water tank . I am using a wood stove to heat my water now in an open system , would like an open system on my hot water heater too. An open system is so much simpler !! Any advice??!!!
Honestly, if you’re cheap, a tankless water heater works just as well as a boiler. Doesn’t have all the features, but when you get a unit with a good turndown ratio, spending $650-950 on a tankless is better than $4k on a boiler. The tankless units last about 7-10 years minimum if you use them for radiant. Then you switch it out for a new one. Cheaper than a maintenance visit or a repair for a boiler. More efficient than the big tank here.
So if antifreeze were run in the system, would you even need the anode? If not, it seems like it would be great port to install a pressure gauge and/or second relief valve. The reason I ask is that I currently have this setup in my home for a radiant system and the installer used the top anode port for this purpose. The tank has a mfg date of 1994 on it and just gave up last winter. It had been "repurposed" for radiant around 2007 at which point the anode had been removed. I should also add that regular water was only used in the closed system, along with a fresh water check-valve to make sure it always had water.
@@johnpeters9903 i believe they state they can run in any direction but in one direction the pressure has to be 20psi. he stated 18psi so hes under but probably why its been ok for 2 years. his also has the pump mounted lower than the water level so maybe at that height hes at 20psi while the gauge up top is only showing 18psi.
Its a closed loop system. We have hard water here. I use only water. My boiler heater and parts are 60 years old. Only had to replace the TACO and In Flow valve once in all this time.
@@JohnODonovan1 Never turn thermostat lower than 55-60 so it can never freeze. and yes it is tap water in a closed loop system so the hardness is not a problem.
I have 100percent radiant heat in my 1600 foot one floor home and 800 sf garage under it. I have an 11 zone manifold upstairs and a 4 zone manifold in the garage. I currently have a Buderus 115kbtu cast iron gas boiler that heats the radiant system flawlessly. I have 35 solar panels that cover my electric bill 99%. I am considering removing the boiler amd installing an 80 gallon HYBRID water heater because I want to add 35 more pv panels. My energy guru says that hybrid water heating is cheaper than gas or oil. I always thought that a water heater wouldn't cover heating my home... which is fairly well insulated. You may consider replacing the gas water with electric hybrid... and possibly a stainless storage tank to cover the slower performance of a hybrid wh versus gas. Nice video.
I can't imagine running an air conditioner is cheaper than gas or propane and you have to have a mild climate. It's -22 C here and dropping to -29 tonight without the windchill. A heat pump would never work here and gas is so cheap that electric doesn't make sense. I don't know how much solar panels are, but I don't think you will ever save any money buying enough to heat your water. You're probably better off using vacuum tubes even though they are a pain in the ass. And do you really have 11 zones in a 1600 square foot house? That seems insane and way more complicated than necessary. You should do a video on your house because it's a pretty different system.
@@briankloc Looking at it again, I think he means loops not zones. The garage should have 4 loops controlled by as one zone by a single stat. You could have bedrooms and living areas as different zones but getting overly complicated anymore makes for more problems with no efficiency savings. You usually try to go 250 feet per loop to get 4 loops out of a 1000 foot coil with as little waste as possible. Getting a designer to design it isn't too expensive and guarantees it will work right.
@@briankloc the garage has 4 loops of pex in the concrete. All 4 loops are controlled by one thermostat.... but requires 4 zone valves.... one for each loop. It requires a 4 valve manifold.
@@deckmonkey1459 11 zone valves for 11 loops.. controlled by 4 thermostats. As far as the efficiency of the hybrid water heater... if it gets crazy cold like you describe I honestly think it would switch to resistance heat. The energy guru knows the numbers and for Massachusetts its cheaper in DOLLARS to heat water with a heat pump water heater than gas or oil. It really almost never gets below zero in my area south of Boston. Adding more solar panels to cover heat and a hybrid plugin car will have a payback date... the energy guru set that too. The PV system in place now covers 100percent of my electric for 5 years. I get a check quarterly SREC that pays me about $3000/ year just to produce electricity. The system will be 100percent paid paid off in 1 year... between SREC and electric bill payback. For the next 20+ years its all profit. I hope to add another 5 to 8 kwh system to cover water heating for heat and domestic hot water. I will need to remove my boiler and use a heat pump. It will require a standby tank for heat due to slower recovery time.
Wow so this is a closed system. Does the system ever need to be topped off? On a regular boiler there’s a fill valve that allows it to fill as needed or if needed. Do you have to check it to see if it’s low?
If there's a pressure reading on the gauge, it has water in it, assuming that the gauge isn't stock. Otherwise if water heater is hotand pump is running, but floor is cold, you know you have a problem
Good day Bill, I'm in the process of building my home and was wondering how much money (roughly) should I put aside for the whole system you have including hose. Thank you
The water heater is on and keeps the water hot based upon the thermostat built into the water heater. It is only on during the heating season as I turn it off in the summer. I know that sounds like it would waste energy but really not much. It is a high efficiency water heater and it is in the house so the waste heat contributes to heating the air in the house.
It's just a regular water heater. With the thermostat so low, they barely run when pump is off. Water heaters are good about keeping the heat in, so they don't really run when the water isn't moving.
for all that probably under or around $800!! FYI im going tankless and while i got a deal i still spent $1000 on just the tank. mine will probably end up around $2,000.
Awesome thank you so much! I have a shop with in floor heat and I haven’t been able to use it because plumbers want over $10,000 to hook the boiler to it. I just found a Rheem right 100 gallon commercial water heater. My floor is 2800 square feet. How did you find out how big your water heater needed to be?
What region are you in? Ceiling height? Insulation? Are you likely to have a bay door open every 5 minutes? 20btu sqft sounds pretty low to me. Unless it's well insulated and tight I would aim for 30, your zone is really important to know.
dear mike jackson, you need to contact a plumber or supply house to fill in all of the variables involved with infloor heat or else you are just throwing darts at a target with no real idea of how the final product will turn out.
If you only have a handful of metal fittings you may as well splurge and use stainless steel ones instead of galvanized. Also your fill and vent line should have caps in case some fool opens the valves
I've been wanting to try this for 20years. I was just curious how warm the water is when it returns. I know the warmer the water returns are the more efficient it will be. Thanks
Radiant systems are typically designed at a 20 degree temperature difference. Therefore, return water temps are subjective to the temperature requirement of the system. Always design the system to the lowest operating temperature necessary so the you can use a condensing gas boiler and run it at those low temps. The lower the return water temp., the more the boiler will condense and run at a higher efficiency. Every gallon of condensate removed equals 8,000 BTUs of savings, or 8 cubic feet of gas.
I bought this water heater th-cam.com/users/postUgkx8G49mV71sAzUl9shXyLW-r3XgHH9EVh1 for use in my bus conversion. I installed it under my kitchen sink and it is fed by a high efficiency on-demand LP water heater. It is both a backup hot water source as well as a water saving device since we have hot water on demand rather than having to wait for the gas on demand water heater to finish its ignition cycle. I decided on this water heater due to the fact that it only draws 1300watts when it's ON instead of the 1500 watts that most Water heaters this size draw. In an RV a couple hundred watts can be a big deal. With very low standby losses, I don't have to worry about excessive power consumption. When propane is not available for our gas water heater, in conjunction with our low flow shower head there is enough hot water available to shower, albeit we won't be taking "hotel showers." Also very happy with the recovery rate of this water heater. Granted, it is quite small, but it does exactly what we need it to do.
Hi Bill,
Beautiful no-nonsense system you have there.
And I agree that there is a complete lack of information on TH-cam concerning heating your home like this. And you're smart to use a "closed" system.
Great video.
I live off grid in north Idaho and I have used your information on my mountain home. It works great! I use propane and a wood heater to keep warm. Thanks to you for the post!
Hi ! I do too have off grid property ,and I'm thinking of using water heater to heat it, how much electricity does the pump use ? to power it with batteries , not to run the generator all day long
I've been using the exact same set up in my shop for 25 years with no problems until the burner corroded up . 👍
Hello Sir. I liked your video. Great job. Glad to hear the system is working. I notice the Grundfos pump is onstalled with the motor turned up vertical. If you read the Grundfos manual it will say that is NOT a way to mount the pump. The pump can be mounted horizontal like you have but the motor needs to be mounted on it side. Just rotate the assembly 90 deg. THe pump motor will last much longer.
Infloor radsiant is the best.
Just wanted to drop a thank you note for posting this video - definitely helped me understand the parts I was wondering about. Great set-up!
so simple! you're right, not a lot on youtube and others look so complicated! thanks so much for this.
Thank you for going over the normal stuff most people have questions to!!!!! This is a perfect go to video on how the system works. Now I finally have an educational tutorial to show folks! Thank you!!!!
I’ve heard similar stories. A grand or so for the water heater beats a boiler price all day n a diy accomplishment is by all means a blessing. The $5k u saved here got u something else. That’s kinda way of life I practice.
Thank you for your simple but precise explanation Your The Man!!!
That was great, easy to follow and a simple method of installation. Thans very much for your demonstration and lesson.
Just what I was looking for. I currently use a wood boiler to heat my house but have wanted to switch over to a hi-efficiency water heater instead so I don't have to continually fill the wood boiler.
Like you, I have searched for an example to learn from and yours is an excellent system in its simplicity. I like it with few parts as that makes for less things to fail in the long run.
Good job Professor Gadget.
You hit on a lot of points to this system...
I honestly think your video is the most sensical one with information and basic workings of your system..... I don't have a heater, last winter it got to 22F in the house. Which we're from the city, we're used to a nice warm 70s in the winter... :O
I'm trying to look at all what is there for a material list...
4 shut of valves, pressure meter, air separator, cold/hot manifolds, thermostat unit, water heater, antifreeze and some pex pipe with various elbows.
Appreciate the video and info provided. My dad and I are about to set up something like this in the old house we're restoring.
this type of installations bring tears to my eyes , just because you could do it this way do`sent mean its a good idea
Ill make this quick and to the point. Your circulator is installed incorrectly, you have the motor in the vertical position which allows air to get caught around the water lubricated shaft. Read your grundfos manual it has diagrams. Your circulator is not pumping away from the expansion tank. This means you are moving the water through your system with a negative pressure, this is why you are having air problems. Next, You are still using the 150 lb relief valve that came with the water heater, it is now a boiler and the relief valve must be changed to a 30 lb valve. If anything change that relief valve. Also corrosion in closed loop heating systems is caused by Oxygen. Oxygen is cooked out of the water in the first few hours, I work on systems that are over 100 years old and still rethread the steel pipe like it was new. On the other hand, Propylene glycol deteriorates into glycolic acid and must be tested yearly. Last but not least you left no way to isolate and drain your expansion tank for yearly air testing. This means you will have to drop the system pressure and introduce air just to check the bladder pressure.
isn't that horizontally installed?!
can I use car antifreeze in this system it is less corrosive
@@Joe-tz3un No, that is ethylene glycol and is toxic.
@@heavyduty3503 The pump is horizontal but the motor shaft is vertical.
Holy shit it’s my favorite plumbing teacher! Ur the man Duke! Still loving Dan Holohan and John Siegenthaler ,thank u for all the knowledge!
You did a great job. Thanks for the info. It’s going to help me out a bunch
Just bought a house with radiant heating. This is a big help. Good one! 👍
WOW, really excellent video! I totally understand now...and just 10 minutes. Thank you so much!
Excellent video and nicely done. I am always looking for the next project to do and this one looks like some fun. Great job !!
Super smart system! Very helpful video. Thanks!
Thank you for your interest. The answer to some common Questions, I have a separate water heater for hot water.
My gas bill for December 2020 was $48.31. The thermostat was set at 70 degrees. This is the 4th year I've had this system with no issues. I sized it based on my experience. For many years I lived in a 1000 square ft poorly insulated house that had a 64,000
BTU furnace in this area. So it seemed reasonable that a 60,000 BTU power vent water heater would work. It never runs anywhere near capacity, usually about 3.5 hours per day. If your instructions say to mount the pump differently DO IT mine did not.
If it works, that's what really matters! I run a wood Boiler to heat 3000 sq.ft and am going inside next season, as i'm tired of cutting, splitting, stacking and ash-ing 6-8 cords of wood a Winter. Your set up is as simple as it can and needs to be. Not good business for either, over-paid pipe-wrenchers and/or the plumbing fitting industries!! Like it
Seeing those numbers is the icing on the cake. Well done.
Excellent commentary. I love it when you say concrete. So many people say cement and and much rather walk on concrete then cement. Great job! I put two or three hot water systems in like that wood fired oil fired wood oil combo they talk about green energy. Should be a law and a new home in the cold zone of the United States should have radiant for heat. Save so many dollars.
thank you so much , great video ,,, wonderful explanation , I learned a lot thanks for passing it along
Great little video! :)
I also like the drain pipe you have on there.
one suggestion. If you have several separate zones, each controlled by its own thermostat, you can get by with a smaller water heater, since most of the time all three zones won't be calling for heat at the same time. You can also initially heat up each zone individually so the water heater will keep up with that high demand situation. Great video and explanation. Thanks
Wow, very informative video. Thanks for sharing.
This is super helpful for me, thank you.
Simply put. Thanks boss!
Very good explanation!!
Thank you Sir,, A great place to start!!
Good morning from Canada.
I was looking over your system, and you should change the pump motor to the side. If you look at the manufacture instruction the motor has to be on its side. Here is a video to show you th-cam.com/video/UvrR5ZAkf10/w-d-xo.html
To remove the air, install a drain cock before the return side ball valve and when you are filling, open the supply side, keep your return valve closed, and let the air come out of the drain cock. This works and makes this removal easy.
Glycol, only use a propylene base.
Looks good, but we recommend using the stainless of brass manifolds which have the flow gauge on them to show you have flow in all the loops. Water is tricky, it will take the shortest way back to the heat source.
Enjoy the warmth as you are one of the smart ones that know you have a great heating system, that cost peanuts to run. Way to go!
To help in figuring what size of a heater to use, take an average of 20 BTU's per Square Foot. (Example 1500sf x 20 = 30,000 required.)
If you could please explain the part about air removal in more detail I would really appreciate it. I built this exact system and started filling it tonight. I'm having trouble with filling and getting the air out. Thanks in advance
I use a similar system to heat my garage only I use my hot water tank from the house and mine is a open loop system so it's always using fresh water as hot water is used in house. Been running for about 12 years with no issues. Love radiant heat
Nice job for helping the dying crowd. I'd like to point out a few things. The boiler, or water heater in this case, should be before the pump to properly vent the tank which is at the lowest pressure drop point in the system. Hydronic pumps are engineered for much higher water tends than your 120 degree supply. There would be a vent fitting such as the air scoop you have after the heater. The tubing used in a radiant system MUST be cross linked polyethylene with an oxygen barrier if any components in the system are ferrous metal, even with anti-freeze which breaks down over time and must be replaced. Thanks for posting.
I installed almost exactly the same thing in my house back in the mid 80's which was unusual at the time especially here in Tennessee. It has worked well with little maintenance. I have exactly the same Grundfos pump and I have had to replace it once. Except for the in tubing in the slab I did all the above floor work myself. I only run my water temperature at about 100 degrees which was what was recommended at the time. I suppose the reason you only have to run it about 2-3 hrs. per day is because you have a 120 degree water temp.
Great video. Thanks for the info 👍
Thank you so much for this! very informative
Been heating my 1800sqft home with a 50 gal oil fired water heater for years
Thanks much,I have wood boiler and floor heat in my buildings I did myself, was wondering how to do a backup system with water heaters,looks pretty easy!
Great video. Thanks.
Short and simple, excellent video!
I have a system for floor heat to supplement the forced air . Couple comments, mine has a separate loop for each room , a thermostatically controlled pump on each , so each room can be controlled separately. It is a closed system with a heat exchanger plumbed so the heat from the household water heater is used as heat source. It has a air bleed at the high point in each loop , just a tire valve like what is used on chloride filled tires
Awesome! I gotta try this out
Thanks for sharing
Mr. Professor Gadget,
Thank you for this informative video. I was elated when I found it. You mentioned that a person could submit their floor plan to either nimco, nemco, or possibly nibco for a hydronic system layout. I was unsuccessful at finding where and how to contact the company you mentioned. I would appreciate some guidance. Once again, great video.
Ken
Thank you!
suggest you turn your pump so the shaft is not sitting vertically. The bearings will support the shaft if you have motor armature horizontal where the bearings can support the motor shaft. Just figured you would not want to need to change out the pump prematurely.
My first hot water heater in my shop heater system lasted 25 years with glycol in the system
Thank you
A way to make your hot water heater tank last longer would be to replace the anode rod annually. I am impressed with your system.
Good job!
You need to rotate your pump 90 degree in the horizontal plane. Consult the manufacturer's instructions. It will fail prematurely if you don't. I have nine of them in my home, one for each of my seven radiant zones, one for my Burnham radiant boiler and one for the domestic hot water return line. My pump for the domestic hot water was originally installed the same as yours and it failed prematurely. You have a great heating system. I originally wanted to use hot water tanks for mine as they are more suited to radiant floors then boiler units, but the BTU calculation for my home was too high. I heat 4800 square foot of living space and a 1000 square attached garage. I believe my 110,000 BTU calculation was too high. In twenty years, I have never seen all seven zones calling for heat at the same time, not even during last week's blizzard.
I would love to see your set up. We have a bunch of zones and I'm trying to figure everything out myself. We have about that size on one floor, then a work floor with another bunch of sq footage, but most wont need heated much. Im looking at hybrid heat pump water heater. Anyway, Id love love to see your set up
I think your energy bill would be lower if you used straight distilled water and no anti-freeze. Also blow out the water annually from the hot water heater and PEX. It is just water, so it can go down the drain. This removes sludge from the bottom of the hot water heater. With your water heater depressurized, remove the sacrificial anode rod from the top of the water heater, replace it when it looks like it is being used up. You might want to replace this rod annually.. It is cheap insurance. If your pump needs to be oiled, this would be a good time to do so. Best wishes.
If you had in line shut off valves on one side of the manifold you can fill one run at a time to eliminate air in the system. You can also control the flow if you get a area that's hotter then the rest of the house. You will always have a run that flows better then another. Just my 2 cents.
True! Cheap too.
Thank you for a great video. How much did you spend for gas and electric last January?
The only problem I see is that your pump motor is installed vertically and they say to not ever mount them in that orientation. Otherwise I really appreciate your detail and information!
so simple,i like it
I imagine there is still air in the top of the water tank. I would think the easiest and fastest way to purge the air from the system would be to loosen the anode and bleed the air there. Nice setup, thanks for sharing.
@Hay Day I never claimed to be, but if you want to make an intelligent comment, maybe one of us will learn something.
@Hay Day troll
@Hay Day admittedly no, but I've been in a few water heaters and I know that on most of them, the outlet nipple has a tube that extends into the tank a few inches, leaving an area at the top of the tank that can trap air.
Clever, but can't help thinking a small, condensing gas boiler would have been simpler yet more economical. Open vented appliances are unavoidably inefficient due to the constant draft up the flue even when the burner is not lit. A sensibly sized gas boiler would modulate to the required load, and on a UFH system would operate in condensing mode the majority, of not all of the time. The system could also be dosed with inhibitor to protect the boiler and other components- given the volume of a water heater this would be impractical.
Look up the reviews on condensing boilers...very expensive (compared to conventional tank water heater), and they require yearly maintenance to descale, and they throw error codes and stop working frequently.
this guy is awesome
Did the same thing to my house boiler went out companies wanted thousands so I cut it out and put in a water heater works great and since it’s electric if I lose power a small generator heats my home as is all is normal
Thanks for info boss
Nice and simple. I might suggest swapping those 2 copper manifolds for a radiant manifold. The radiant manifold doesn't need to be fancy but it will allow you to balance the flow of each run of pipe. They are very user friendly. There is a gauge for each run, just turn knobs till they are equal, then if you want you can turn up or down areas of the house to adjust comfort.
If all the PEX runs are the same length, 250' in this case, the fancy manifold is not necessary. I use them when there are many loops at different lengths and/or multiple zones on the manifold. Otherwise, copper manifold are fine and have far less resistance.
A reliable,simple, flexible, economical, low maintenance heating system. It will last 30+years i think except thermocouple replacement in 10 years. Lower the gas pressure to 3iwc and recover some heat from flue pipe will increase efficiency to 80+%. That is good enough but please install CO detector all times
I have a single zone system like yours, it has been operating for over 15 years now. I use a 40 gal. H/w tank my only issue with this setup is about every 6 or 7 years I have to replace the tank, never for leaking issues, always for gas valve or burner stuff. I'm on my 3rd tank now so other than that it is great! Heats a 400 sq foot office in my Pole barn. Cost about $300.00 a year to so. Around 300 gal. of propane. And by the way your pump is infact mounted wrong it should be vertical? Thanks
Cool idea, however, water heaters don't last as long and don't have as many sensors and safety devices as boilers. For others, looking to do this, do your research, there are many codes and rules for hydronics. Here's what's installed incorrectly: 1. should be a drip leg on gas line 2. TPR valve on water heaters are 150 PSI, should be switched out with a 30 psi boiler TPR. 3. Pump should be oriented 90 degrees and it should be on the supply side after the air scoop for proper air removal 4. Should be 18" of straight pipe before air scoop 5. Primary loop lines should be at least 1" for that many loops. 6. Galvanized fittings not recommend 7. Distilled water is not recommended in hydronics as it actually leaches metals from other items. 8. the cap on the air vent should be loose to allow air to escape. Pex should be oxygen barrier type 9. There should be a low water cut off device. If it leaks water and empties the tank, the air in the water heater can boil, ruin the water heater and create very high pressure
?
yes all of that and more. think of how much cleaner that install would have been if those incorrect manifolds would be turned around.plumber for 49 yrs
Did he do anything right or is it all wrong? I'm guessing it was cheap and works for him so maybe good enough ?
You sound super knowledgable. Im working on trying to design my system and discovered hybrid hot water tanks. We have 11000 sq feet in our building to heat. Though its the PNW and the typical heat requirement in winter is only 30-40 degree difference. Much of the loops will be kept near 60 degrees as they are rooms not being used much. But the main living space we will have it warmer. Do you recommend a closed loop system with the water and antifreeze or glycol? Then another hot water tank for the domestic usage?
@@JessicaBriarmoon yes a closed loop system with antifreeze(glycol) with a dedicated boiler, and water heater for domestic. Or install a combi boiler
WOW!!!! THANKS FOR THIS GREAT INFO, AND EXPLANATION!!.. I HAVE A SMALLER HOUSE, (IT'S ONLY ABOUT 864 SQ. FT.) I WANT TO INSTALL A SIMILAR "SIMPLE" SYSTEM, USING A "TWIN" HOT WATER TANK SYSTEM (ONE TANK (OR TANKLESS HEATER?), USING NATURAL GAS, THE ADDITIONAL "BACK-UP" HEATER WILL BE ELECTRIC ( SO THAT IT CAN BE HEATED FROM POWER FROM A "BACK-UP" GENERATOR, OR, COMED., IF NECESSARY.
Great video thank you. Would you mind answering a few questions.
1. How much did the Hot water tank cost.
2. How many linear feet is your 1 zone loop
3. Do you wish you would of installed multiple zones
4. Have you experienced where the the water heater would not keep up with heat demand.
5. What are your coldest months.
Thank You so much. Where I am from WA, colder months can be below 10 deg at night.
Thank You
The water heater cost about $600.00. The length is about1500 feet. No regrets, It is an open floor plan ranch house. On the coldest days in our area near Chicago the temperature can be below zero with single digit highs. We keep the thermostat at 70 degrees and the system runs about 50 percent of the time.
@@professorgadget9153 Thank You
at 8:59 it looks like you tightened your air/water separator vent screw all the way down. i believe you want that loose so air that gets generated can escape. check your model though. mine you dont touch ever. its set from the factory.
Thanks for the great and simple video. I'm doing the exact same set up in my shop. My question would be is how much antifreeze/water goes in the water heater? Mine is a 40 gallon. I have my lines in the floor filled and most of the air purged out just not sure of the water heater.
Just read the instruction on the back of the antifreeze jug about mixture ratios; it all depends on where you live BUT since you aren’t using this in a cars radiator, I’d venture to say you can go thinner than recommended (aka use less antifreeze since the system will be “inside”). An average car takes a 50/50 ratio for “normal” climates. Add more or less based on the jug recommendations. if you do go buy antifreeze, buy the concentrate and not the premixed kind as you will be needing LOTS of it and you’d also just be buying 50% water with the 50/50 mix…. It’s great for topping off cars in a hurry but when changing the whole system out, you’re just wasting money.
I would like to build a system with a propane hot water tank . I am using a wood stove to heat my water now in an open system , would like an open system on my hot water heater too. An open system is so much simpler !! Any advice??!!!
What thermistat did you use and why did you pick the one you ended up using?
your pump is mounted horizontally which is recommended to be mounted vertically
Honestly, if you’re cheap, a tankless water heater works just as well as a boiler. Doesn’t have all the features, but when you get a unit with a good turndown ratio, spending $650-950 on a tankless is better than $4k on a boiler. The tankless units last about 7-10 years minimum if you use them for radiant. Then you switch it out for a new one. Cheaper than a maintenance visit or a repair for a boiler. More efficient than the big tank here.
I just use a propane hot water heater. Less parts to fail. Simple and cheap.
Can i use my existing 200,000 BTU natural gas tankless water heater for domestic hot water and add pex and a pump to heat my 20 x 17 garage floor?
Nice
Please tell me about the expansion tank. How did you size it?why is it where it is?what does it actually do. Is there anything inside of it?
So if antifreeze were run in the system, would you even need the anode? If not, it seems like it would be great port to install a pressure gauge and/or second relief valve. The reason I ask is that I currently have this setup in my home for a radiant system and the installer used the top anode port for this purpose. The tank has a mfg date of 1994 on it and just gave up last winter. It had been "repurposed" for radiant around 2007 at which point the anode had been removed. I should also add that regular water was only used in the closed system, along with a fresh water check-valve to make sure it always had water.
From what I know, anti freeze only inhibits, and slows down corrosion, I would still keep the anode as safeguard and install a gauge inline.
Is this a new construction? If not how did you radiate heat in the house
Turn the pump 90 degrees. Or it won’t run properly and finally will break down.
correct he failed to read the directions
@@johnpeters9903 i believe they state they can run in any direction but in one direction the pressure has to be 20psi. he stated 18psi so hes under but probably why its been ok for 2 years. his also has the pump mounted lower than the water level so maybe at that height hes at 20psi while the gauge up top is only showing 18psi.
I am going to do this in my home . Great Natural gas option . I am replacing a Oil boiler and will do the same . Saving green all the way
If you have a electric hot water heater, can you have an on the floor? Or is it a violation?
Its a closed loop system. We have hard water here. I use only water. My boiler heater and parts are 60 years old. Only had to replace the TACO and In Flow valve once in all this time.
And why is it that you dont use antifreeze and what kind of water do you use, i'm assuming non distilled water.
@@JohnODonovan1 Never turn thermostat lower than 55-60 so it can never freeze. and yes it is tap water in a closed loop system so the hardness is not a problem.
@@grabir01 except for the times of year when the system is not on or needed?
@@JohnODonovan1 True.
How much did the water heater cost?
Can you post a list of all the parts, thank you.
I have 100percent radiant heat in my 1600 foot one floor home and 800 sf garage under it. I have an 11 zone manifold upstairs and a 4 zone manifold in the garage. I currently have a Buderus 115kbtu cast iron gas boiler that heats the radiant system flawlessly. I have 35 solar panels that cover my electric bill 99%. I am considering removing the boiler amd installing an 80 gallon HYBRID water heater because I want to add 35 more pv panels. My energy guru says that hybrid water heating is cheaper than gas or oil. I always thought that a water heater wouldn't cover heating my home... which is fairly well insulated. You may consider replacing the gas water with electric hybrid... and possibly a stainless storage tank to cover the slower performance of a hybrid wh versus gas. Nice video.
I can't imagine running an air conditioner is cheaper than gas or propane and you have to have a mild climate. It's -22 C here and dropping to -29 tonight without the windchill. A heat pump would never work here and gas is so cheap that electric doesn't make sense. I don't know how much solar panels are, but I don't think you will ever save any money buying enough to heat your water. You're probably better off using vacuum tubes even though they are a pain in the ass. And do you really have 11 zones in a 1600 square foot house? That seems insane and way more complicated than necessary. You should do a video on your house because it's a pretty different system.
What are all the zones for? Wouldn’t the garage be one zone? I’m starting to look at building my own system.
@@briankloc Looking at it again, I think he means loops not zones. The garage should have 4 loops controlled by as one zone by a single stat. You could have bedrooms and living areas as different zones but getting overly complicated anymore makes for more problems with no efficiency savings. You usually try to go 250 feet per loop to get 4 loops out of a 1000 foot coil with as little waste as possible. Getting a designer to design it isn't too expensive and guarantees it will work right.
@@briankloc the garage has 4 loops of pex in the concrete. All 4 loops are controlled by one thermostat.... but requires 4 zone valves.... one for each loop. It requires a 4 valve manifold.
@@deckmonkey1459 11 zone valves for 11 loops.. controlled by 4 thermostats. As far as the efficiency of the hybrid water heater... if it gets crazy cold like you describe I honestly think it would switch to resistance heat. The energy guru knows the numbers and for Massachusetts its cheaper in DOLLARS to heat water with a heat pump water heater than gas or oil. It really almost never gets below zero in my area south of Boston. Adding more solar panels to cover heat and a hybrid plugin car will have a payback date... the energy guru set that too. The PV system in place now covers 100percent of my electric for 5 years. I get a check quarterly SREC that pays me about $3000/ year just to produce electricity. The system will be 100percent paid paid off in 1 year... between SREC and electric bill payback. For the next 20+ years its all profit. I hope to add another 5 to 8 kwh system to cover water heating for heat and domestic hot water. I will need to remove my boiler and use a heat pump. It will require a standby tank for heat due to slower recovery time.
Great job mate !
What does it cost to heat your house for a month
I saw in another video that the pump piston should be horizontal not vertical...
How much ...kwh per month during the coldest part of the year ...does ur system use ...???
how much does it cost to run................................
Great video. What model is the water heater... do you recall what it cost? Is it just a regular water heater?
It was a high efficiency Richmond 29 gallon. It had a 12 year warranty and the specs said it was good for hydronic heat. I think it was around $600
Wow so this is a closed system. Does the system ever need to be topped off? On a regular boiler there’s a fill valve that allows it to fill as needed or if needed. Do you have to check it to see if it’s low?
If there's a pressure reading on the gauge, it has water in it, assuming that the gauge isn't stock. Otherwise if water heater is hotand pump is running, but floor is cold, you know you have a problem
Good day Bill, I'm in the process of building my home and was wondering how much money (roughly) should I put aside for the whole system you have including hose. Thank you
for this maybe $1000, for other items like tankless heaters, maybe $2000.
Thanks for the video. Is the water in the heater always hot, or does the water heater only heat when it's called for by the thermostat?
The water heater is on and keeps the water hot based upon the thermostat built into the water heater. It is only on during the heating season as I turn it off in the summer. I know that sounds like it would waste energy but really not much. It is a high efficiency water heater and it is in the house so the waste heat contributes to heating the air in the house.
It's just a regular water heater. With the thermostat so low, they barely run when pump is off. Water heaters are good about keeping the heat in, so they don't really run when the water isn't moving.
good video. what is the aprox. cost to install the radiant heat? iam thinking on doing it myself to my garage...
for all that probably under or around $800!! FYI im going tankless and while i got a deal i still spent $1000 on just the tank. mine will probably end up around $2,000.
Awesome thank you so much! I have a shop with in floor heat and I haven’t been able to use it because plumbers want over $10,000 to hook the boiler to it. I just found a Rheem right 100 gallon commercial water heater. My floor is 2800 square feet. How did you find out how big your water heater needed to be?
20 btu's per sq. ft. of floor.
A whole lot of math.
What region are you in? Ceiling height? Insulation? Are you likely to have a bay door open every 5 minutes? 20btu sqft sounds pretty low to me. Unless it's well insulated and tight I would aim for 30, your zone is really important to know.
dear mike jackson, you need to contact a plumber or supply house to fill in all of the variables involved with infloor heat or else you are just throwing darts at a target with no real idea of how the final product will turn out.
The two 90 PEX elbows at the manifolds totally unnecessary and adds flow restriction. Vertical shaft on pump not good.
If you only have a handful of metal fittings you may as well splurge and use stainless steel ones instead of galvanized. Also your fill and vent line should have caps in case some fool opens the valves
I've been wanting to try this for 20years. I was just curious how warm the water is when it returns. I know the warmer the water returns are the more efficient it will be. Thanks
Radiant systems are typically designed at a 20 degree temperature difference. Therefore, return water temps are subjective to the temperature requirement of the system. Always design the system to the lowest operating temperature necessary so the you can use a condensing gas boiler and run it at those low temps. The lower the return water temp., the more the boiler will condense and run at a higher efficiency. Every gallon of condensate removed equals 8,000 BTUs of savings, or 8 cubic feet of gas.
a guy a know says his output is 125º and 112º on return. he said 3 runs in his garage with each run being under 300'. hope that helps.
Did this require getting a permit and having the work inspected along the way?
It was a new house being constructed. It required a building permit and the usual inspections.