I used to work as an SCV with some low-life commander. Artosis I think. One time we got swarmed by the zerg so hard we had to retreat. Then he calls me into his dirty 2x2 office and starts berating me saying we lost the station because I didn't build the building he wanted, which he never asked me to build! He threatened me saying he was gonna send me "scouting cross map" in our next mission. Others told me he is always blaming others for his mistakes. Glad I switched jobs since then.
He says while he just moves in with stalkers and an observer to clear all the mines... Vultures are fast, but with their range they can really only kite Zealots and Lings, maybe Marines if u'r a god. They really don't trade well against anything else so their speed is only really good for flybys on mineral lines and those are often suicidal 😅 With Blink Stalkers you definitely have plenty of counter play I would argue.
@@Broockle tbf Vultures are like 75-100 minerals, very dirt cheap for what they do, then again. Mech Terran has nothing else to dump minerals into aside from missile turrets
Despite this, i do think that there are some major balance issues. Dragoons should not take seven shots to kill a reaper. Starcraft 2 marines should not just be a strictly better SC1 marine for no extra cost. Some of the broodwar units need a slight buff in eother cost reduction or damage buffs. The only SC1 terran units that feel strong in SC2 are valks and vultures. Tanks feel weak, goliaths feel weak, wraiths feel useless, BCs feel like worse versions of SC2 BCs. The mobility difference is crazy, the speed at which SC2 can expand and produce units is crazy.
@@manchovieclemmons2380 I fully agree. I see the SC2 factions as stronger versions of the SC1 counterparts. The only exceptions are Vultures, Reavers and perhaps Mutas for Zerg? I don't know.
@@manchovieclemmons2380 anima beat me to it but i thought BW would crush SC2 just because of how insanely OP their casters are, lockdown, spawn broodling etc are such broken abilities compared to the mild skills of SC2 casters. in spite of that and the fact that every BW unit costs no supply i'll say it looks like it never gets to the late game where BW has the advantage, Z1vZ2 is straight up impossible to win because of banelings and roaches, so it looks like so long as the SC2 player is agressive he'll win most of the time.
Yeah it's probably super imbalanced, but huge skill gaps are still going to be the biggest factor (engine familiarity being part of that). But BW still has some crazy units. I'm looking forward to seeing how the meta develops.
Yeah I didnt see the apm but when I was watching I was thinking Harstem is playing pretty fast, he looked like he was trying hard really didnt want to lose to Artosis lol
Honestly it's kinda hilarious when watching both streams, just seeing the raw speed difference between harstem + arty makes it clear as day why harstem took these games with somewhat relative ease.
@@plantex625 Artosis was super tryharding. Harstem when super tryhards he doesn't talk (for tournaments). But yeah he is a gamer of course he wants to win always like he said multiple times.
every sc2 protoss vs bw terran i've seen has been dozens of stalkers walking straight into spider mines. Nice to see that harstem has enough brain cells to NOT do that
@@Appletank8 Also in actual SCBW, with 4-5 goons, you kind of have a good chance to kill undetected mines before they blow up, if you trigger them one by one
I really love to watch this mod. I generally love to watch star craft (2 specifically), but this mod really feels like it's giving something new into the well known world of sc2
I could hear Arty complaining "this race can do anything" and the guys in the chat sending snow's laugh "hahahahahahaha" and the meme of him clapping with feet.
Science vessels are so weak though. And they're slow. And they cost 200 gas each. With the mobility of sc2 Protoss, I feel like they would have gotten picked off in 2 seconds by blink stalkers. And isn't the emp projectile slower?
@@samuelfraser8922 BW races got insanely powerfull casters late game, and on paper it looks good for them. The problem is getting there, it seems sc2 races are so much better at mid game. Those casters wont help you if you are dead or are turtling at 3 bases against an opponent on 7 .Imho there is still alot of balancing to do.
I hope we get to see more of this mod when it's more fleshed out. This was a lot of fun, I watched both player's perspective (you can watch Artosis' version on his twitch channel for those who are wondering). I felt bad for Arty at the end since he felt like he exhausted his options and couldn't win, but the Captain isn't exactly an easy opponent to play, even if the game were to be balanced. One can have a lot of fun with this mod, I think playing BW vs BW would also be interesting.
I love the, "he hasn't done anything yet" that's how I feel watching clips of artosis. He seems like he just wants to build up and move out on his own time 😂😂
I'd love to see the game from his perspective as well, but I'd also have to witness the mind scrambling, despicable abhorrence on the left portion of the screen.
30:113 I love that there's a ground unit that actually outruns phoenixes...it's like the Rebel Alliance evacuating Hoth. That's just a cool interaction
Artosis is at a disadvantage because they're playing with sc2 engine rather than the broodwar, if there is a sc2 mod in brood war (if even possible) artosis would crush harstem in it too.
@@shengloongtan229Isnt Arty more like an entertainer/influencer whereas harstem is actually a pro player? I only watch arty cast, not play, so im not really sure what level he plays at
@momoaa Arty is high A tier and near S tier in Brood War. That is essentially high GM in SC2 terms. That is why Harstem said Arty was actually playing good, infact I think Artosis had a chance in game 3 and 4, but he did not take advantage of his timings as they were obscure and he prefers to play the long game and go for obvious advantages or thought out patterns of play, which he can't know. When Scarlett got into brood war she and Artosis were near the same skill level, and he has since gotten better, and I don't think Harstem is a better pro gamer than Scarlett.
@@seraphimconcordant Artosis at 2100-2200 is not high GM - it's low GM. The first showmatch against Scarlett, Artosis lost 4-3. The second (held three months later which can be found here (th-cam.com/video/Cx8xqSbUssk/w-d-xo.html), Artosis lost 4-0, and most of the games weren't particularly close. They may have been similar in skill when Scarlett first started, but it was pretty clear by that point that there was a pretty significant gap.
The biggest thing I noticed was that sc1 Terran aren’t used to leap frogging sieged tanks. They just push with all of them and then are surprised when they all die.
I've been watching a lot of Brood War lately, and one thing I'm noticing is that BW maps feel a lot smaller and more constrained. SC2 maps feel more wide-open, and the units feel smaller compared to the size of the map. It de-emphasizes the strengths of siege tanks specifically.
Yeah, in some SC1 maps your push can cover 80% of the map width, in SC2 its like 20% lol Its also unit speed (and pathfinding) that screws the tanks. Charge and blink vs derpy huge dragoons is a big deal. The only huge boon for SC1 Terran is that spider mines may be 100x better to use, as planting them is more noob friendly (but ironically more micro intensive), and they may actually chase enemy units way better and lead to way less friendly fire (sieged tanks with a line of mines underneath may actually counter zealots instead of being countered by them!).
EMPs are a thing indeed in BW. Science Vessels have them, though it requires a science facility upgrade. Also, they drained ALL shields and energy, not only 100 like sc2 ghosts.
I found when they go healthy count tank vulture if you go flux vains voidray. It steam rolls them before they can even panic out goliaths. Also upgrading air attack soon as cyber core is up.
I just realised there's a bit of genius to the BW wall. It's not ideal in SC2 to use a full wall IF the depot cannot be raised or lowered, _because_ if the barracks is lifted off the addon is underutilized. But BW doesnt have addons for Barracks. So it _costs less_ to liftoff a Barracks in BW than it does in SC2. Furthermore, a Barracks is just a better gate in terms of lifting because if a Barracks is lifted all units will always fit. Where as if a depot is lowered, there are certain "difficult" block placements if you screwed up where not all units fit. eg if you screw up your addon locations or have to put a bunker.
37:00 he's analytical because he sees everything, and because he sees everything he can't let go that he hasn't figured out this map. Actually really good trait to have- if you're trying to analyze play, best to keep the map conditions constant until you can figure out how or if you can win the map.
@@HaloDude557 Did you watch both Streams? Harstem is doubling his APM. Doubling his Reaction time. Doubling his camera movements. Do people seriously not realize that Artosis is mid master mmr AT BEST?? And that's super highballing him. Harstem would stomp Artosis with any race with just one week of practice. He would also stomp Artosis SC2 Protosss with his SC1 Terran. The skill difference here is astronomical.
@@Figgy20000 did you read the question? This is about actual broodwar. NOT SC2. In Broodwar you cannot add buildings to control groups. You must manually click each one and then manually keypress the unit to train. In broodwar you cannot have control groups with more than 12 units. In broodwar you cannot attack move, the pathing sucks so bad you will lose a fight. There are so many concepts in broodwar that make it an annoying game to play and master. There are so many extra things to micro where a player with good macro but not enough time in game is going to struggle.
@@HaloDude557 You know how much easier to macro it is when you literally double your opponents APM. Why do people vastly overestimate how strong Artosis is at the game. Snow literally beats him 17-0 in Brood War as well and it looks just as one sided. Doesn't mean Toss is IMBA
One thing about the Vulture that doesn't really happen in SC2 is how concussive damage works. While they have insane 20 damage grenade, it only applies to small units ( analogue of light tagged units ) and shields ( as shields always take full damage ), so against heavy units or buildings they do only 4 damage per shot. In SC2 there are only few units that do have larger bonus damage than base ( units like Adept and Immortals ) and none of them are even close to the insane 1:3 ratio. As result, they do wipe workers really fast, and can fight Zealots just fine, but as soon as there is something even remotely hardened, they do basically no damage. So while they are scary, they can't really kill players, and their economical damage potential can be negated with decent simcity and cannons.
Vults do 20 concussive, 10 vs medium units (which is like vulture, hydra, and thats pretty much it for ground), and 5 (25%) not 4 against heavy units or buildings (armor applied before percentage, meaning 1 armor even on heavy units doesn't really matter, as it means its 19/4=4.75 damage). The only other units with concussive damage (100% 50% 25%) are meme ghosts and firebats. Explosive damage (tanks, hydras, dragoons, most anti air) does 50% vs small, 75% vs med and 100% against big. There are no "bonus damage" with SC1, only normal, explosive and concussive damage types. Concussive is almost non-existent and explosive is way less punishing and is what "vs armored" does in SC2 design-wise. Tanks (hydras, dragons/stalkers) wreck big units but aren't so strong vs zerglings, zealots, marines, workers etc.
22:50 Artosis: "disrupter is good unit design imho" thinking Harstem was going to write back "yes, BUT do you think its IMBA or do you suck?" :P but then Hartem might actually get stabbed lol
Its funny to me, because it seems to me reaver in BW is stronger then disruptor. IF you watch, it isnt that hard to dodge disruptor shots, which seems impossible against reaver, which also doesnt have to stand still for the whole fire animation.
I think the maps are too large for at least bw Terran to do well on. Having the huge number of early workers also deters a lot of early aggression in this context. Think some of the earlier sc2 maps from wings of liberty would lead to more interesting matchups
Is there any way to see global win rates in this mod? Feel like we could track that to see if it's even possible to balance. Get an initial win rate and then compare over time. If the win rates trend towards normalizing it's doable.
13:50 see SCBW protoss has nothing against SCBW terran mech pushes. The meta is literally to eventually lose your main (as slowly as possible), and having production up and running in a different base by then. Because if you do alright against the vultures, T's map presence is kind of non-existent, in the sense that he's gotta keep his army together, which is very slow.
I think if I remember correctly, Vultures have 4 mines each, they cost not to much and are quick to build, I am not sure when implemented in SC2, but I would assume the same. And yeah the mines do pretty good damage.
3, 75 minerals, but the "pretty good damage" looked good only because it does 20 to shields and small units (marine, scv probe zealot), but does only 5 to large (stalker).
when I played pvt in bw 100 years ago I basically went zealot/goon/ht every single game. I played like zerg, expanding constantly and just sending wave after wave lol. I don't know how good it was really, but I beat some decent people. It also helps to send a couple shuttles full of zealots into the tank line to draw mine and tank splash onto his tanks.
in SC1 protoss does indeed often plays like a SC2 zerg, even in competetive. SC1 terran plays like SC2 protoss (protects their army quality, does timing pushes etc.)
I was waiting for a DT push. Was always a favorite of mine vs terran, since there's no orbital command centres for scan you could run out of energy or delete the scan addon and turrets and terran had no easy detection.
I used to work as an SCV with some low-life commander. Artosis I think. One time we got swarmed by the zerg so hard we had to retreat. Then he calls me into his dirty 2x2 office and starts berating me saying we lost the station because I didn't build the building he wanted, which he never asked me to build! He threatened me saying he was gonna send me "scouting cross map" in our next mission. Others told me he is always blaming others for his mistakes. Glad I switched jobs since then.
Love it. Maybe a marine story next?
I guess that explains THE pylon.
no such thing as low or command or for or high or etc
So when you switched jobs did you become another SCV?
@@andrewr681 he did, but he works for Flash now
"He F2 back home, or whatever you call it in brood war....1234567 back home"
Hilarious
lmao time? from
@NeonNoodle22 comment 30:09
I loled
this is the most perfect example of clashing cultures creating humor.
wrgg, say, laux etc ay nmw s perfx
He said 12345 7 back home, six is out somehow
"he's out of mines he can't just keep doing this forever"
... Welcome to Brood War 🤣
do you play sc2
"I'm not calling it broken, it's just very strong and has no counter" lmao
He says while he just moves in with stalkers and an observer to clear all the mines...
Vultures are fast, but with their range they can really only kite Zealots and Lings, maybe Marines if u'r a god. They really don't trade well against anything else so their speed is only really good for flybys on mineral lines and those are often suicidal 😅
With Blink Stalkers you definitely have plenty of counter play I would argue.
It seems it needs to be that way, because the BW races have fewer options
@@Broockle tbf Vultures are like 75-100 minerals, very dirt cheap for what they do, then again. Mech Terran has nothing else to dump minerals into aside from missile turrets
@@MisterGrittle theyre 75 and the hellion is 100
@@MisterGrittle no reactor tho and they need speed and mine upgrades.
I think Blink Stalker with Warpin can easily keep up with that.
I love how the Mario erotica is just a part of Artosis's identity now.
we need to start a petition that arty has to stream with a Mario costume
@@Bortscht He is more of a Luigi
@@Matthew-uv6gl I disagree, that sore of a loser is waluigi for sure
@@Matthew-uv6gl its especially obvious when his brother was on stream. RT definitely luigi
Mario pants with crotch holes
20:35 "Don't think they quite have this in brood war"
Oh man do they now? *insert clips of artosis raging to recalls while a tts is playing*
This calls for a rematch where you try to beat his SC2 Protoss, while playing SC1 Terran
RT loves to punish himself. He wants the BW T 🍵
Holy shit, Artosis would have a f**king heart attack! 🤣
@@anthonykneipiii4562 Artosis would also lose 99 games out of 100.
The skill difference between them is far too powerful. I love the idea though
Artosis: "This mod is so imbalanced! How am I supposed to win?!"
Harstem: 6500 MMR Protoss pro gamer super try-harding.
Despite this, i do think that there are some major balance issues. Dragoons should not take seven shots to kill a reaper. Starcraft 2 marines should not just be a strictly better SC1 marine for no extra cost. Some of the broodwar units need a slight buff in eother cost reduction or damage buffs. The only SC1 terran units that feel strong in SC2 are valks and vultures. Tanks feel weak, goliaths feel weak, wraiths feel useless, BCs feel like worse versions of SC2 BCs. The mobility difference is crazy, the speed at which SC2 can expand and produce units is crazy.
@@manchovieclemmons2380 I fully agree. I see the SC2 factions as stronger versions of the SC1 counterparts. The only exceptions are Vultures, Reavers and perhaps Mutas for Zerg? I don't know.
to me the BW spellcasters feel so much better than the SC2 ones, tho I have only watched and not played the mod myself
@@manchovieclemmons2380 anima beat me to it but i thought BW would crush SC2 just because of how insanely OP their casters are, lockdown, spawn broodling etc are such broken abilities compared to the mild skills of SC2 casters.
in spite of that and the fact that every BW unit costs no supply i'll say it looks like it never gets to the late game where BW has the advantage, Z1vZ2 is straight up impossible to win because of banelings and roaches, so it looks like so long as the SC2 player is agressive he'll win most of the time.
Yeah it's probably super imbalanced, but huge skill gaps are still going to be the biggest factor (engine familiarity being part of that).
But BW still has some crazy units. I'm looking forward to seeing how the meta develops.
421 apm vs 173 apm first game lmao. Poor Artosis doesn't deserve this but im sure his stream was a blast!
Yeah I didnt see the apm but when I was watching I was thinking Harstem is playing pretty fast, he looked like he was trying hard really didnt want to lose to Artosis lol
Honestly it's kinda hilarious when watching both streams, just seeing the raw speed difference between harstem + arty makes it clear as day why harstem took these games with somewhat relative ease.
@@plantex625 Artosis was super tryharding. Harstem when super tryhards he doesn't talk (for tournaments). But yeah he is a gamer of course he wants to win always like he said multiple times.
Harstem: I think im dead.
Proceeds to stomp
Harstem: Anyway....
"How many times do i need to teach you this lesson? Old man."
Saw this live from artosis perspective. The mothership flying into the back of the main was one of the funniest things I’ve ever seen.
no matter where arty goes, he cant escape recall.
could you maybe tell which vod i can watch this at?
@@FreddieBM www.twitch.tv/videos/2147489580
@@FreddieBM its his most recent on on twitch called "🎊LADDER TIME🎊" starts around 1:09
@@FreddieBM www.twitch.tv/videos/2147489580
I can imagine artosis when the mothership flys in like a giant arbiter and just recalls
Waiting for Artosis' PhD thesis about BW Terran submitted to IODIS
WOW , I think we have reached a new level when Harstem is afraid to say something in fear of making someone mad
every sc2 protoss vs bw terran i've seen has been dozens of stalkers walking straight into spider mines. Nice to see that harstem has enough brain cells to NOT do that
TBF some BW protoss players forget to bring Observers too.
@@Appletank8 Also in actual SCBW, with 4-5 goons, you kind of have a good chance to kill undetected mines before they blow up, if you trigger them one by one
@@gressorialNanites Yes, with tons of micro. In SC2 you have this with a-move lol
@@MajkaSrajka Yeah, but tons of micro is guaranteed when this caliber of players are on. I'm not talking about my own games lol :D
I really love to watch this mod. I generally love to watch star craft (2 specifically), but this mod really feels like it's giving something new into the well known world of sc2
same! I hope Harstem plays some more on this mod
30:09 "1234578 back home" 😂
Artosis still getting Arbiter recalled in SC2. kekw. Marito would be proud.
Remember the time when Mario helped Luigi get his plumbing unclogged?
Fyi, only sc1 scvs have more health, as well as a faster attack speed. The sc probe has the shield regen and drones have a slight ranged attack
probes also accelerate faster (same top speed though) and have a larger sight radius - or at least they do in BW, hopefully they still do in this mod
Probes also have 1 range.
finally! My 2 favorite starcraft streamers playing together
I could hear Arty complaining "this race can do anything"
and the guys in the chat sending snow's laugh "hahahahahahaha" and the meme of him clapping with feet.
Pretty sure the science vessel has a way better EMP with bigger range, good thing he doesn’t know that
Science vessels are so weak though. And they're slow. And they cost 200 gas each. With the mobility of sc2 Protoss, I feel like they would have gotten picked off in 2 seconds by blink stalkers. And isn't the emp projectile slower?
@@sihTdaeRtnaCuoYit might be but it gets rid of ALL shields, I just tested it out it’s so busted, you can shoot it then just fly back
@@samuelfraser8922 That's pretty cool. I hope people keep playing this. It's almost like having a new game. I want to see people figure things out.
@@samuelfraser8922 BW races got insanely powerfull casters late game, and on paper it looks good for them. The problem is getting there, it seems sc2 races are so much better at mid game. Those casters wont help you if you are dead or are turtling at 3 bases against an opponent on 7 .Imho there is still alot of balancing to do.
I hope we get to see more of this mod when it's more fleshed out. This was a lot of fun, I watched both player's perspective (you can watch Artosis' version on his twitch channel for those who are wondering). I felt bad for Arty at the end since he felt like he exhausted his options and couldn't win, but the Captain isn't exactly an easy opponent to play, even if the game were to be balanced.
One can have a lot of fun with this mod, I think playing BW vs BW would also be interesting.
Double APM is pretty difficult to beat.
The reason why vultures are so fast in sc1 is because it is super hard to move things around with sc1 engines lol
They're also essentially rocket engines strapped to a hovercraft the size of a motorcycle.
"I'm not calling it broken. I'm just saying it's very strong and there's no counter to it." The definition of broken hahaha
I wish we could hear both perspectives or you guys were on call together.
1000x more of this please. This is by far the best to watch, the sc1 put such a spin in the games
Artosis: Is SC2 Toss IMBA against BW Terran, or do I suck?
I love the, "he hasn't done anything yet" that's how I feel watching clips of artosis. He seems like he just wants to build up and move out on his own time 😂😂
I would like to see the game from Artosis's perspective 😂😂😂
You can! He streamed it, so you can watch the VoD.
@@rozmarinideas5340 do you have a link? I couldnt find it
I'd love to see the game from his perspective as well, but I'd also have to witness the mind scrambling, despicable abhorrence on the left portion of the screen.
Know what date is the VOD?
@@rozmarinideas5340 I think they meant, watch it from Artosis' perspective and without the Mario.
30:113 I love that there's a ground unit that actually outruns phoenixes...it's like the Rebel Alliance evacuating Hoth. That's just a cool interaction
I love the little talks in the text chat, it's fun and made me laugh a few times.
Does not know if vultures shoot up, but still wins all the games. Harstem is just the gigachad of SC2 and SC1 too.
Artosis is at a disadvantage because they're playing with sc2 engine rather than the broodwar, if there is a sc2 mod in brood war (if even possible) artosis would crush harstem in it too.
@@shengloongtan229Isnt Arty more like an entertainer/influencer whereas harstem is actually a pro player? I only watch arty cast, not play, so im not really sure what level he plays at
I mean it was like 170 Vs 430 apm in harstems favor, even though artosis is a very good player, the skill gap with a real pro is still insane.
@momoaa Arty is high A tier and near S tier in Brood War. That is essentially high GM in SC2 terms. That is why Harstem said Arty was actually playing good, infact I think Artosis had a chance in game 3 and 4, but he did not take advantage of his timings as they were obscure and he prefers to play the long game and go for obvious advantages or thought out patterns of play, which he can't know.
When Scarlett got into brood war she and Artosis were near the same skill level, and he has since gotten better, and I don't think Harstem is a better pro gamer than Scarlett.
@@seraphimconcordant Artosis at 2100-2200 is not high GM - it's low GM. The first showmatch against Scarlett, Artosis lost 4-3. The second (held three months later which can be found here (th-cam.com/video/Cx8xqSbUssk/w-d-xo.html), Artosis lost 4-0, and most of the games weren't particularly close. They may have been similar in skill when Scarlett first started, but it was pretty clear by that point that there was a pretty significant gap.
The biggest thing I noticed was that sc1 Terran aren’t used to leap frogging sieged tanks. They just push with all of them and then are surprised when they all die.
and they only have one army, because counterattacking is cheating. might just be an artosis thing though
@@kurt7937 Artosis losing 10 goliaths to one Disruptor was just super embarassing...
in SC1 you can select only 12, so you push with 12. In SC2 you select as many as you can haha
We NEED a rematch with swapped races.
I appreciate you taking it easy on Arty and not just rolling over him with those stalkers.
I've been watching a lot of Brood War lately, and one thing I'm noticing is that BW maps feel a lot smaller and more constrained. SC2 maps feel more wide-open, and the units feel smaller compared to the size of the map. It de-emphasizes the strengths of siege tanks specifically.
Yeah, in some SC1 maps your push can cover 80% of the map width, in SC2 its like 20% lol
Its also unit speed (and pathfinding) that screws the tanks. Charge and blink vs derpy huge dragoons is a big deal.
The only huge boon for SC1 Terran is that spider mines may be 100x better to use, as planting them is more noob friendly (but ironically more micro intensive), and they may actually chase enemy units way better and lead to way less friendly fire (sieged tanks with a line of mines underneath may actually counter zealots instead of being countered by them!).
This is like the fun uncle and the awkward uncle at new years debating life.
Dare i ask, more of this?
First time I see artosis GG against protoss. Well, I guess he knows he is playing a pro.
More like mutual respect, and not another barcode player.
WOOOOOOOO loving the SC EVO content!!! Thank you Hamster 🙏
Recalls in his base are exactly the stuff Artosis nightmares are made of. In BW its just Arbiters.
Is SC2 imba or do I suck?
Prepared for this like a tournament
Yay, I've been waiting for this.
This was so fun to see. Would love seeing all other matchups as well. Artosis played well I think!
Omg im so weak 😂
Science vessel pops into view "what the HELL was that?!" Idk why but that broke me lol
EMPs are a thing indeed in BW. Science Vessels have them, though it requires a science facility upgrade. Also, they drained ALL shields and energy, not only 100 like sc2 ghosts.
"He just wasted 4 mines.." Oh boy I'm in for a treat
I found when they go healthy count tank vulture if you go flux vains voidray. It steam rolls them before they can even panic out goliaths. Also upgrading air attack soon as cyber core is up.
Weirdest audio glitch at 45:27 when Harstem says "Yeah"
I just realised there's a bit of genius to the BW wall.
It's not ideal in SC2 to use a full wall IF the depot cannot be raised or lowered, _because_ if the barracks is lifted off the addon is underutilized.
But BW doesnt have addons for Barracks. So it _costs less_ to liftoff a Barracks in BW than it does in SC2.
Furthermore, a Barracks is just a better gate in terms of lifting because if a Barracks is lifted all units will always fit. Where as if a depot is lowered, there are certain "difficult" block placements if you screwed up where not all units fit. eg if you screw up your addon locations or have to put a bunker.
Artosis blaming balance is cringe. Harstem is just a far better player, I'm 100% convinced the score would be the same if the races were flipped.
lmao. Harstem would have went bio 🤣
"Mario erotica" 😂
Feels funny to know more about SC1 than a pro player of SC2 (Harstem).
Not skill, just having played SC1 as a child.
37:00 he's analytical because he sees everything, and because he sees everything he can't let go that he hasn't figured out this map. Actually really good trait to have- if you're trying to analyze play, best to keep the map conditions constant until you can figure out how or if you can win the map.
I can't watch right now, but just entered the video to like it and will watch it later. Gonna be a banger
You need the ebay to make turrets if my memory serves.
You do. And Academy for comsat station, which is scans. Early detection is locked behind one of those two buildings.
I really hope we start getting IODIS complaint videos for this mod
This could actually be fun, because there might some genuine imba cases, it much much less balanced then sc2 vanilla.
I wanna see Harstem play real SCBW, would be cool to see the difference
He would get rolled. The micro needed to play that game is on another level
@@HaloDude557 Did you watch both Streams? Harstem is doubling his APM. Doubling his Reaction time. Doubling his camera movements.
Do people seriously not realize that Artosis is mid master mmr AT BEST?? And that's super highballing him.
Harstem would stomp Artosis with any race with just one week of practice. He would also stomp Artosis SC2 Protosss with his SC1 Terran. The skill difference here is astronomical.
@@Figgy20000 did you read the question? This is about actual broodwar. NOT SC2. In Broodwar you cannot add buildings to control groups. You must manually click each one and then manually keypress the unit to train. In broodwar you cannot have control groups with more than 12 units. In broodwar you cannot attack move, the pathing sucks so bad you will lose a fight. There are so many concepts in broodwar that make it an annoying game to play and master. There are so many extra things to micro where a player with good macro but not enough time in game is going to struggle.
@@HaloDude557 You know how much easier to macro it is when you literally double your opponents APM.
Why do people vastly overestimate how strong Artosis is at the game. Snow literally beats him 17-0 in Brood War as well and it looks just as one sided. Doesn't mean Toss is IMBA
@@Figgy20000 I’ll believe it when Harstem plays BW. A huge amount of his APM is inflated by spam and rapid fire.
I been playing a few games and Ive noticed if you’re able to make a bunch of ghosts with some goliath/tanks you can lockdown a bunch of Protoss units
This was so funny. You two should play again sometimes :D
@Harstem the best thing about SC1 Vultures is => they actually have a speed upgrade :D
This mod is so fun I wouldn't even be mad if the one blizzard intern managed to make a separate ladder for in game.
I'm sure Immortals would have been a huge issue for his tanks and Goliaths.
This mod is fun! Waiting for other guests!
Really fun video, love it
lmfaooo I been waiting for this!
This mod is hilarious and it's so interesting to see people playing with old units in the new(er) shiny engine.
One thing about the Vulture that doesn't really happen in SC2 is how concussive damage works. While they have insane 20 damage grenade, it only applies to small units ( analogue of light tagged units ) and shields ( as shields always take full damage ), so against heavy units or buildings they do only 4 damage per shot. In SC2 there are only few units that do have larger bonus damage than base ( units like Adept and Immortals ) and none of them are even close to the insane 1:3 ratio.
As result, they do wipe workers really fast, and can fight Zealots just fine, but as soon as there is something even remotely hardened, they do basically no damage. So while they are scary, they can't really kill players, and their economical damage potential can be negated with decent simcity and cannons.
Vults do 20 concussive, 10 vs medium units (which is like vulture, hydra, and thats pretty much it for ground), and 5 (25%) not 4 against heavy units or buildings (armor applied before percentage, meaning 1 armor even on heavy units doesn't really matter, as it means its 19/4=4.75 damage).
The only other units with concussive damage (100% 50% 25%) are meme ghosts and firebats.
Explosive damage (tanks, hydras, dragoons, most anti air) does 50% vs small, 75% vs med and 100% against big.
There are no "bonus damage" with SC1, only normal, explosive and concussive damage types. Concussive is almost non-existent and explosive is way less punishing and is what "vs armored" does in SC2 design-wise. Tanks (hydras, dragons/stalkers) wreck big units but aren't so strong vs zerglings, zealots, marines, workers etc.
22:50 Artosis: "disrupter is good unit design imho"
thinking Harstem was going to write back "yes, BUT do you think its IMBA or do you suck?" :P
but then Hartem might actually get stabbed lol
Its funny to me, because it seems to me reaver in BW is stronger then disruptor. IF you watch, it isnt that hard to dodge disruptor shots, which seems impossible against reaver, which also doesnt have to stand still for the whole fire animation.
"Artosis, a man with honor"
I went to an Artosis stream once. Never again. Never, again.
Was the SCV reverse ramp bug correctly implemented in the mod?
The man himself,this is going to be good
It would be really fun to have a ladder, where you able to play all 6 races :D
Archons vs broodwar is pretty bad, as all brood war attacks do max damage vs shields (instead of 60%)
SC EVO is so damn good! Feels like Starcraft 3 just got released
Artosis got rusty and forgot about Protoss having...OBSERVERS
I want to see mass dark archont mind control on sc2.
what country are u both playing from here, and on what region?
you should try 2v2s with the new race combos possible.
The science vessel gives detection, can cast EMP and defense matrix.
Race swap? Harstem SC 1 Terran vs Arty SC 2 Toss?
Wait it's been a while since I paid attention to StarCraft, what patch was it that turned Harstem into Rotterdam?
Games aside, these sc1 models look awesome (aside from the ones from the official skins ofc). I wish they would update mass recall mod with this.
I think the maps are too large for at least bw Terran to do well on. Having the huge number of early workers also deters a lot of early aggression in this context. Think some of the earlier sc2 maps from wings of liberty would lead to more interesting matchups
would love to see you play BW Terran vs Artosis playing SC2 Toss
Is there any way to see global win rates in this mod? Feel like we could track that to see if it's even possible to balance. Get an initial win rate and then compare over time. If the win rates trend towards normalizing it's doable.
"takes a lot for me to complain"
Complains through 3 winning matches 😂
13:50 see SCBW protoss has nothing against SCBW terran mech pushes. The meta is literally to eventually lose your main (as slowly as possible), and having production up and running in a different base by then. Because if you do alright against the vultures, T's map presence is kind of non-existent, in the sense that he's gotta keep his army together, which is very slow.
corsair only shoots air and has splash, much better than liberator's anti air. it also can cast essentially blinding cloud
I think if I remember correctly, Vultures have 4 mines each, they cost not to much and are quick to build, I am not sure when implemented in SC2, but I would assume the same. And yeah the mines do pretty good damage.
3, 75 minerals, but the "pretty good damage" looked good only because it does 20 to shields and small units (marine, scv probe zealot), but does only 5 to large (stalker).
The next logical step of this mod is to allow building SC1 and SC2 units together
when I played pvt in bw 100 years ago I basically went zealot/goon/ht every single game. I played like zerg, expanding constantly and just sending wave after wave lol. I don't know how good it was really, but I beat some decent people. It also helps to send a couple shuttles full of zealots into the tank line to draw mine and tank splash onto his tanks.
in SC1 protoss does indeed often plays like a SC2 zerg, even in competetive.
SC1 terran plays like SC2 protoss (protects their army quality, does timing pushes etc.)
34:46 Arty sharing the with the SC2 community the joy of a probe not making
I was waiting for a DT push. Was always a favorite of mine vs terran, since there's no orbital command centres for scan you could run out of energy or delete the scan addon and turrets and terran had no easy detection.
37:50 Nice. Gotta macro the excuses for later use. That's what makes you the pro gamer.
Thing about BW turrets is they are only 75 minerals, so putting a couple down is more viable.