I'm curious on how it will handle static UI elements, my guess is developers have to specify it because even though it's AI, it's not trained on each game individually
Showing off TLOU 2 is contentious because of how many times they've gone back to that well! Started on PS4, got PS5 backwards compatibility enhancements, got a PS5 Remaster, and now PS5 Pro Enhancements? Maybe if we went from PS4 to PS5 Pro Remaster it would be impressive, but these small iterations make it seem so insignificant overall.
Just you wait. The first PS6 demo will be a new and comprehensively ray-traced, native 4k, 120 fps TLOU2. With slightly better explosions and water effects. And a new art gallery to unlock. And a complimentary key ring with a laminated picture of Neil Druckman. Go Sony.
Not a dig, just made me laugh, but the idea of everyone waiting for DF's professional analysis in the wake of Sony's lack thereof, to then get it and be presented with a huge zoom of Ellie's butt got me. Take notes, Sony, this is how you present P-ASS-ASS-R.
lol. Jokes aside, I think those who are more "techy" need to see a more methodical breakdown, that's why we have been waiting for DF to do this. And yeah, personally I think PSSR is the biggest selling point considering many PS4 games will benefit from it.
1:07:14 I think the point of the PS5 Pro price is to convince people to finally buy the already expensive PS5 base model and move on from their PS4s already
I thought of getting a ps5 as a gift for someone and this was the first sigh of relief I thought of, getting their officially announced refurbished base models for less. If this was their goal, it’s working
ProRes is also an intra frame codec. Which means it does not use information from previous frames for the encoding, like for instance h264/5 (those are inter-frame codecs) do. Every frame is encoded "by itself" which should be ideal for judging image quality from games that use DLSS and such.
It is technically possible to get intra-frame versions of h.264 and h.265, but you lose about 90% of the compression potential. Essentially most people/programs don’t use intra-frame. If you want to optimize for quality it is usually a lot better to bump the inter-frame bitrate rather than going for intra-frame. Another huge difference between typical h.264/5 and ProRes, is that all ProRes versions have 4:2:2 chroma sub-sampling (or better), while the inter-frame formats typically have 4:2:0 chroma sub sampling. The difference isn’t too obvious on real footage, but graphics and strong colors usually look a lot less sharp at 4:2:0 than 4:2:2. Essentially 4:2:2 means the red and blue color channels have half resolution, and 4:2:0 means red and blue have only a quarter of the resolution of the luminance channel. 4:4:4 would be full resolution in all color channels. The reason why 4:2:0 usually looks ok is because our eyes are much worse at seeing changes in color than seeing changes in brightness. Edit for more information about 4:2:0: If you ever wondered why pure red (or blue) text on a black background looks more pixelated than it should be, it is because the red (or blue) chroma channel has no luminance data to blend with, causing the graphics to reveal the true resolution of the red (or blue) channel in 4:2:0. Meaning even if the video is 1080p, the reds (or blues) have a resolution looking more like 540p. At 4K though the reds would have a resolution of 1080p causing it to be a lot less noticeable. So higher resolution overall can compensate for bad chroma sub sampling. Pixelation like this only applies to black backgrounds. A white background will likely cause it to look softer, but not pixelated. If you ever want to have text on a clean black background avoid pure red or blue. Make sure there is at least some data in the other color channels to avoid pixelation. If you want an example it is actually visible on the Netflix logo of the new Netflix Cyberpunk teaser on TH-cam.
Motion JPEG also is an intra frame codec, and it can look terrible if compressed to aggressively. ;) Meanwhile you can easily make H.264 or 265 look almost indistinguishable from the ground truth by simply using a high enough bit rate. ProRes isn't an intra frame codec to increase the output quality, but to make editing more efficient, since you can instantly jump to every frame without having to decode any previous frames; means scrubbing is _much_ faster. The better output quality however comes from the fact that ProRes uses very high bit rates and even supports raw data coming directly from a camera's sensor.
So it seems to me from this that the PS5 Pro will heavily rely on PSSR which isn't really a bad thing if done well. It's just where the industry is going. AMD and Nvidia are investing in upscaling tech because it's economical.
Consoles have been using resolution stretching upscaling, checkerboard rendering and dynamic resolution for years before it came to PC. PCs are just adopting approaches consoles have used for the last decade, and why not? If the results are good who cares.
Yeah devs basically get to push graphics settings higher instead of resolution and let the advanced machine learning algorithm handle the latter. I think this has been common wisdom since the PS3 era but we are at a point where AI upscaling methods are so good it's getting indistinguishable from native res!
Small note: eg. 50:43 Reflections on the black pickup truck look blurry and low res because cars in GT7 become dirty during race... and that "dirt" makes reflectios looking too blurry. It's the same on the normal PS5. Whe you start the race reflectiosn are sharp and clear, and later they become to look like in this footage. IMO it's strange and rather bad implementation of the "dirt" effect on the car body.
What kills it for me is the lack of water droplets on the car's. With all that snow clearly the cars should be wet looking to a degree, looking bone dry ruins the overall great looking Ray Tracing imo.
It's the lack of a disc drive that's killing me. You're alienating everyone who wants to play their physically owned games on new hardware. After taxes, buying a PS5 Pro and drive would cost 900 dollars. I also can't justify spending 800 on a console to only play upcoming titles digitally.
Do what I did. Buy the drive now, knowing it won’t depreciate in value in the long-term, and if the PS5 Pro isn’t for you… sell the drive. The same demographic that will pay $700 for a console isn’t fretting over an $80 (or in the case of the stand, $30) cost. That’s Sony’s general calculus anyway.
@@TheMrNukeman I think it's a good idea cause it reduces game costs and preserves games. Of course, Sony hates it cause why it's probably reduces sales by a certain percentage especially in Japan but all the more reason to have it.
I'd love to see Metro Exodus on PS5 Pro. That game had super low render resolution and FSR2 upscaling. Add more power, improve the RT performance, and replace FSR2 with PSSR and it'd be a world of difference in picture quality.
That's crazy that the PS5 fidelity mode and PS5 Pro comparison was actually comparing PSSR vs native and doesn't really look any different. Sony didn't communicate that very well. If it was clear that the actual point is to see no difference when PSSR is being used vs native but you gain double the frame rate, the reaction might have been a bit more positive. Instead of seeing people on social media shooting Sony by using that comparison screenshot and memeing it saying they can't see the difference as negative.
No new Wild ARMs. No new Ape Escape. No new Killzone. No new Twisted Metal. No new Wipeout. No new Syphon Filter... Just the nittiest of nitpickings...
@@ChaosAngelZero Well yeah, beyond the barely visible graphics upgrades and the "wait is it April Fool's" price tag, the absolute lack of new games was astonishing. The thing is, if you compare TLoU1 PS3 and PS4 versions, the difference in fidelity and performance is pretty obvious. Now, if you compare even base PS4 to PS5 Pro TLoU2 versions, the difference is so much smaller it's a joke. If anything it just makes me appreciate what an amazing technical achievement it was to get TLoU1 running on PS3 that well at all, rather than TLoU2 being substantially better on the PS5 Pro compared to any other version. So you can basically pay £699 to be reminded how many exclusive games the PS5 doesn't have considering a lot of PS4 games were running slightly better on the base PS5 already and the PS5 in general has been trading on the PS4's library since launch now, while not building one of it's own.
Wow, I forgot all these titles that made me thirst for a PS1/2 as a child, now I'm more frustrated with their current direction. They used to have so many cool sounding games, and now I'm more than happy with just a PC
1:52:11 Rich is wrong here; the PS5 did have a game reveal. The Demon's Souls remake. And I'm pretty sure that contributed in a very big way to the hype for the announcement, because in 2020 that thing looked unbelievably good.
Incidentally Demon's Souls was in the sizzle reel for PS5 pro but they haven't covered it. It was another game though that already had a decent 1440p locked 60fps mode. Would have loved to see what they do with Returnal on the pro as well.
@@Valpremier which makes every other console utterly the pits right? No, in the console space, removing overpriced PC’s, consoles are great and PS5 pro is the best of them.
@@hdhdhhehe6709 I actually think they'll double pack the two TLoU remasters again into an "optimised for PS5 Pro" collector's edition or something like it because really, at this point, what else have they got? I just wonder how many times they can repackage essentially the exact same things for profit before people realise how stupid they're being to pay for the same thing over and over.
700 Euros would be bad, but i would perhaps still have considered buying it, cause i'm a sucker for new consoles and probably wouldn't have thought too much about it (if i really need it). But its 950 Euros with discdrive and stand in europe (and also more than 700 in the US, Tax and Discdrive etc.). And Switch 2 is coming out next year. If i sell my PS5 i get like 400 bucks for it. I would have to lay over 500 bucks on top of that PS5 money for a Pro. I mean most of the games still run on PS4, i probably could even live with my old PS4 Pro.
They know 8K isn't a target as the market is incredible niche, at best. Those TVs have more of less gone the way of 3D TVs. The implementation in GT7 will probably mainly function as a marketing tool and be akin to a gimmick.
I'm sure they'll come back it's just currently there's not much content that's recorded at that resolution. The movie industry will likely push 8k at some point and that will filter down to TV recordings and then Games will be the last to adopt.
I believe it's more like the simple fact that by supporting a certain HDMI standard, you kinda automatically get support for 8k output with it. It's just a matter of available bandwidth in the connection.
Yup. In fact the packaging for the PS5 Pro doesn’t have an 8K badge, so it seems like Sony has officially moved on from using 8K as a selling point for the masses.
If Sony manages to get away with selling a midgen console, that at a face value offers far less of an upgrade than PS4 Pro with only 45% better GPU, for €800 without a disc drive (which is literally double the price of PS4 Pro) then I am scared to even imagine the price of a true next generation console.
@@Feanaro5503FPS, not at all. 4 Pro had like a 38% (something like that don’t recall exact) CPU frequency bump. 5 Pro has an optional 10% bump at max. Only thing helping frame rates here potentially is PSSR. 4 Pro did much more for frame rates overall % wise than the 5 Pro will ever hope to achieve. It’s just the 5 has good baseline performance already.
Great analysis. One thing to note is that the PS5 Pro starts their pre-orders on Sept 26th, the same day that the Tokyo Game Show kicks off. It will be curious to see what titles will be announced at the event that make significant use of the PS5 Pro.
@@AnthonyTripoli Yep. No improvements or upgrades to CPU, SSD speed, amount of RAM, a 45% "improvement" to the GPU for a nearly 200% price jump over a base Slim Digital which itself could hit the 2TB storage with a simple SSD slot upgrade. And that GPU boost is mostly via frame gen/interpolation techniques which I already consider a cheating way to get more frames.
I have a 7800X3D and a 4090 and aim for 4k120, there are some games where you need to compromise. Usually on base resolution before DLSS upscale even going down to 1080p (DLSS performance) in some heavy or path traced games. There will always be compromise of some sort regardless of what you buy, unless you play old gen games or target lower resolutions and frame rates. Is the PS5Pro disappointing still? Yes, for the price especially outside the US for example it's $1380NZD in New Zealand. Insane.
@@murderface7744 Sony is basically doing this on a smaller, lamer scale and overcharging it. All this console is a glorified upscaler for aging hardware. Like the gpu has a slight increase in performance, everything else is the same as the base model.
I use my PC (7800X3D/4090) in the living room, connected to a 65" LG CX. The "no living room" argument has gone out the window with hdmi 2.1 on high end GPUs and will be come even less relevant with future releases of GPUs. Wireless KMB are insanely fast to the point they are near as fast as wired now. A simple lapboard is all you need for KBM tasks and gaming.
Next time you squint or have to click a tiny "ok" box, remember you're wrong and have an incredibly niche set-up that nobody wants. I'm sure it works for "you" but thankfully, you are not the arbiter of good sense or taste. With DLSS you could have gotten the same experience with a 4080 AND taken all your friends out for dinner.
PS6 be like: - $999 - No disc drive - Digital only - Online-only games with Always-On DRMs implemented that could be shut down at any time in the future "You'll own nothing and be happy".
Bruh in the end time you’ll only be able to buy and sell with the mark of the beast, so who cares anyways. You don’t own nothing that you think you own, the government can’t take all your property and you could only cry
If a game doesn't hit 60fps on the base PS5, you can basically always assume it's CPU limited. Otherwise developers would have either lowered the resolution manually, or dynamic resolution would have solved it. When you can't drop resolution to increase frame rate, you are CPU limited, and no amount of PS5 Pro boost mode will improve that performance. Testing on a PC with a much more powerful CPU (not to mention, code that uses the CPU differently) is useless.
OMG Funniest moment of all DF Direct Weekly 1:18:26 by LeftIsThominid - the humor is strong with that one! "Did you ever hear the tragedy of Mark Cerny the Wise?" 😂😂😂
7:49 So keep all settings the same as base PS5, & use the AI upscaling in the PS5 Pro for better overall resolution? If thats all the PS5 Pro is bringing to the table for $700... Its a wrap
Can't even get true resolution anymore gotta use Ai 😂😂😂. Sony has gotten really lazy remasters and remakes galore, lack of new IP, depending on timed exclusivity to fill out their release calendar, cancelling game after only being online 2 weeks like what is going on in that company.
@@kennethyoung7457it's been a while since we last saw true resolution on any graphically demanding game on a console. Consoles have to target TV resolutions so they had to jump from 1080p to 4k which is a completely different beast rendering wise
Based on this video 1080p internal upscaled to 4k via pssr the image quality might even be better than the quality on ps5 which is native 4k but has terrible post processing
Didn’t he and Alex point out that game was using awful dated upscaling that could have been fixed with a patch but now he’s hyped over a $700 “fix” after saying for years we don’t pro consoles?
900€ so I can play GT7 with LOWER resolution and some reflections you wont actually notice 99% of the time. There’s something very wrong with this generation.
I think the issue is that when you start getting into this price tier, being picky about how much you spend stops being as much of an issue for those willing to drop the money? Like if I'm going to start bordering $1000, what's to stop me bumping that up 10% -15% and getting a vastly superior experience with a PC with more games and free (essentially) online play? The selling point of consoles (including Pro tier) has largely become, in recent years, low entry fee (maybe not low fee over time, necessarily). Especially as they've more or less lost a lot of the benefits they once had over PCs in the past, it's become harder to justify the closed ecosystem UNLESS you get in for really cheap relative to PC. But once you're spending $800+ (I'm including features that were standard on the base model, being generous ignoring tax) on a console just to enter... why bother? If it's any indication of where PS6 pricing will be, that's a problem for Sony.
I mean i already have a PC that i use for gaming and more. And i have a PS5 with discdrive that cost me 499 Euro. I probably would have bought a PS 5 Pro (even if i'm not really needing it) for like 600 Euros (with discdrive), or highest 700, but not 950 Euro with stand and drive. If i sell my PS5 i get around 400 Bucks for it, so i would have to pay 550 Euros on top of the PS5 money just to play the same games in a bit better resolution and framerate (while i can already play most of them on PC in better graphics). 950 Bucks, thats a lot of games. I will spend that money for a Switch 2 and some games, if the Switch 2 has some exclusive games in the first year.
@@борисрябушкин-з9н That not (if he doesn't own a 4080 or 4090), but a PC is usefull for different things. The price is just crap, double the PS5 price in europe with disc drive, thats unheard of from a Pro console and its only a GPU upgrade. If the price comes down its a nice upgrade (sadly with no discdrive included).
So...here are the possible min resolution for performance mode on PS5 Pro based on pre-release footage: Ratchet: 728p (Alex says it at 17min38sec) Alan Wake 2: 864p This is very low. PSSR better be amazing to compensate..but looks like it will still be less effective than DLSS. + Hogwards Legacy: RT Reflections more detailed but less resolution... GT7: RT reflection on tracks but lower resolution...daaaamn
TLOU2 shouldn't NEED PSSR though since on PS5 and especially PS5 Pro it should run at high frames and resolution natively. It's worrisome that studios are getting so dependent on tech like PSSR instead of at least trying to get games to run well natively.
exactly! what are we supposed to say when the “next gen” update from that game is going from 1440p 30 to 1440p 60 with ever so slightly less pop in? that’s NOT next gen in the slightest. look at death stranding, gave us native 4k and doubled the frames. it’s scary that the graphics renowned naughty dog couldn’t optimize atleast towards a 4k60 with fsr on the amateur ps5 using dynamic resolution or SOMETHING, and yet not even the ps5 pro can give you above 1440p resolution STILL. on a pa4 game.
@@phant0mdummy the difference is $250, not $700 (still a lot for just +1TB of storage and PSSR). If you want to preach a $700 difference then you have to compare it to a $0 console (good luck with that)
Honest opinion is that 95% of Sony's fanbase would be okay without the Pro, and that while the pro may look good it doesnt do anything for the gaming landscape at the price point.
Question: Is there sales data on what the PS4Pro introduction did to the PS4 retail market? Was there a surge in used PS4s and a drop in retail PS4 sales (because of people opting for used rather than new)? Or was there a simultaneous price drop for the PS4 that kept those units moving? What's going to happen with retail PS5 sales if you've suddenly got millions of used PS5s competing with a still-expensive new PS5?
I have a library of PS4 games on disc. So I bought a PS5 disc edition. So the few PS5 games I bought, I also bought on disc. So buying a PS5 Pro and not the disc drive would be a very stupid thing for me to do. That means I'd have to spend $780 before tax for the Pro and the disc drive to be able to play my game library. $842.40 for a functional console for me. That's just not worth it in my book. The original PS5 does well enough for PS4 games, and for PS5 games it'd be cheaper to buy the few games I have again on PC than buy the Pro + drive. I'm pretty much done with PlayStation, it makes more sense to wait for the PC ports at this point.
This is just my opinion as a PC player but I 100% agree. Playstation really hasn't produced many sequels this generation that I would consider buying into the platform to play on Day 1. The exceptions so far seem to be Astro Bot and Demon's Souls which I suspect that neither of these are not to receive ports.
I think people will take from this what they want to hear. But for me, it boils down to: You can pay $700+ for a PS5 Pro, but you need a DF Crew to know and validate why you paid $700+
@@nerdsandotherlegends652or you want the extra image quality and fps? That’s not taking what you want to hear, that’s just a fact of what this console will provide. Whether that’s worth the money for someone is entirely up to them.
Thank you Oliver one person more in touch with all gamers. All those suggestions of building or buying a PC for same price as a ps5 pro, are missing a major factor and it shows they maybe out of touch. Many mums or dads want a device that is plug and play and a PC and their complications would put a lot off. Let alone the first time Windows shits the bed or a piece of hardware starts playing up. Not to mention the awful performance these game developers produce on most platforms, but particularly the PC. It's a fair comparison just from a value perspective but not realistic for an average consumer, but then again they would be better off saving the cash and get the standard ps5. I am interested how pssr will rank against versions of dlss and fsr, which may indicate how future amd gpus will perform with a more compelling competitor to dlss. Don't forget the ps5 pro has to sell at this price because of the failure of concord.😊
@@davidmorgan3359 Exactly, clueless non-techie parents want to buy a box they can essentially throw at their child which plays the games they want, no hassle, just works Todd. Trying to spec out a custom PC build or not getting stung by a bad prebuild requires a lot of watching a channel like Gamer's Nexus and how many parents are going to do that? Almost none. Consoles are still mostly plug and play, even though they ask way too many questions during initial setup in the same way modern operating systems like Windows and macOS do.
I admire the effort and analysis of Rich, Alex and Oliver here on this topic but i still feel as a gamer that one thing is missing from all this. Its an outside the box thought these days... away from the technical stuff...... can games go back to being games again? All this push for technical details is amazing but let me put it this way. Astro Bot has been the most fun game i have played in so many years, it brings a smile, its heartwarming and its most importantly FUN, video games was designed to be fun first and foremost. Floating over to the technical stuff. I still find it amusing that some think the Pro will be something god given. I think it will be a pretty average upgrade. The PS4 Pro was similar, better image was more the thing, checkerboarding with sometimes games with better framerates. Even the clips in this video.... there is not much going on here to suggest a major power upgrade and i guess the same CPU and having to be fully compatible with the PS5 is vital. This happened in the PS4 Pro era, having games built for the base platform first and foremost meant improvements were negligible at times, like they were tacked on, unless it was first party where more effort was made. We may see this again, especially with the cost of modern development? It's an expensive upgrade for better image quality... oh, i think Forza Motorsport now has IN GAME RT reflections?.... on PC anyway. But as a stated at the start of my rather long reply. Games should be FUN. Give me innovative gameplay and fresh ideas over AAA drabble with top technical visuals any day..Its like having a super model as a Mrs but she is the most mundane boring girl on the planet.. who only cares about her looks and presentation because she is worried what people may think.
Internally games could even render at a LOWER resolution like 1080p, and then rely on PSSR AI upscaling to 4k. It would still look much better, and that would free up even more resources for effects or game logic etc.
@@youuuuuuuuuuutube Upscaling is a crutch in lieu of something better, and more heavy reliance on it and DRS is proof to me that the industry is stagnating and not entirely because of Moore's Law. If games are rendering at 1080p I'd rather just have them output that on a 1080p display because it makes 4K kinda worthless, let alone 8K.
@@garydiamondguitaristAll the graphics you like are a series of hacks and you'd be hard pressed to name a game in the last decade that didn't render SOMETHING sub native res on a console.
on the topic of PS5 Pro vs PC cost deal, I'm sorry Richard but the point you are trying to make has no sense. If Sony, being a japanese company must "cut corners" on the fabrication of HW based on the value of their currency... What about Sony TVs? Why are they not skyrocketing prices on EU? Or Xperia Phones? Or Headsets/Headphones? Those have chips and electronic bits too... Heck, the non-Pro PS5 shares the same CPU chip, and probably most of their capacitors and resistors with the PS5 Pro... Let's face it, Sony is a multinational business, and can easily manouver to bring materials to the factories. It's just that the PS5 Pro is a bit of a "let's try and make something to grab money from the less experienced players, or the hardcore fans". All companies do it, Sony too, and there's nothing wrong with saying it clearly... there's no need to give them an alibi.
So, based on Alex's Ratchet & Clank analysis: To get to 60fps on PS5 Pro, we're getting the lower fidelity graphical setting with less crowd density and no DOF blur from the performance mode, but with PSSR to upscale that image to get a 4K resolution. You don't get the fidelity mode with all the details in 4K but with more fps with this Pro console. Hmmm.... maybe I was being naive?
On base ps5 the performance RT mode is running drs from 1080p-1440p at 60fps with upscaling to 4k with insomniac software. Pro version seems to be that same version running at 1440p-1800p at 60fps and then pssr on top. If I’m reading that right, that’s doubling the ps5 performance in resolution.
PS5 Pro £700 + Disc Drive £100 + 3 Years of PSN (For the length of console life maybe) £180 = £980 No this had made it a no brainer to just get a PC and put up with the wait for exclusives.
Surprised about the lack of comments on DF's part about the lack of a disk drive and stand. For me personally the lack of disk drive shows intent on Sony's part that they will make my physical library pointless going forward with PS6 or beyond. This makes me want to sell my collection and move to PC.
@@edmundfung And the fact John wasn't here for this one, it's no surprised the lack of disc drive talk wasn't up for discussion since John is hardcore physical games
I will say living room PC is viable for a good home theater setup. Xbox Gamebar and Steam big picture have gotten a lot better over the years for controller use. The logitech K400 keyboard is also a great accessory for troubleshooting purposes. Despite it not being close to console, the PC living room dream is making strides for sure.
Yep. I get sick of people going on about how they want to sit back on a couch and relax with a controller and play games on their big screen tv and that is why they console game... I would think people working with Digital Foundry would know better than to make a dumb statement like that. I have been gaming on my PC like you would a console for years. Just like a console, my PC is hooked to my 65 inch TV and surround sound receiver through the hdmi and the case is a horizontal position case, sitting on a stand under that TV. The TV is also good quality 4K with HDR and Dolby Vision and all that. I not only sit back on my couch with a controller to game on my PC but I am typing this right now using that same setup with a wireless keyboard from my couch. I don't get how people in 2024 are not getting this is a thing...
@@somethingthatisntcringe757 Funny, I know several people with the same set up as mine. Just because you don't want to do it doesn't mean you are everybody.
I don’t know how Sony thinks the Pro is worth the price they ask for it. I came in to this episode to see the footage analysis expecting nothing and left even less impressed than I thought.
Xbox wants 600 for a 2 tb series x with all same specs as the 1 tb series x. The pro with all its features and 2 tb is 700. The cost is right where it should be.
@@steveybiggunzgaming8118 it's an extra $110 with the stand and disc drive....still not a sound purchase imo with no new software to show its true capabilities
A Radeon 7800 XT [60 CUs] is ~500USD, and a 2TB m.2 SSD is ~200USD. They're asking for Market Price, or a bit lower, for the hardware. In turn Microsoft is intending to charge 600USD for an All-Digital XBox Series X with a 2TB SSD.
I’m going to have to say for what the cost of the Pro console requires the gains don’t seem rather worth it especially when it’s only redeeming factor is using upscale ai technology. It doesn’t seem it’s relying as much on the upgraded GPU which begs me to wonder if this PSSR technology could not have been easily implemented into the current PS5 as some update. When compared to the regular PS5 version I have to say the differences are rather disappointing….not so much the visual quality but more so how small the difference are. I can understand times are tough for Sony right now so they want to make a profit but I fail to see how this justifies Sony in requiring to making another console for it at an inflated price… Can’t really justify spending $700USD ($959CAD) for this to be honest but interesting breakdown nonetheless. Thank you.
How method did you use to determine the internal res? My friend works with the pro, and said it has fixed internal res to 1080p (seen through debugger, so I'd assume - more reliable way).
I think it's important still to be critical of the price point of the Pro when you actually break down the numbers and to do so relative to the base PS5 rather than PC. The cost difference of the PS5 Digital vs the PS5 Pro (Digital) comes down to a handful of things: - Different APU: Likely the same size or slightly bigger, lower volume and on N5 vs N6). Likely ~50% more expensive at worst, something like $40 additional cost. - 18Gbps G6 RAM vs 14Gbps G6 RAM Chips: Probs ~$20 additional cost. - 2TB or SSD Chips vs 1TB: for Sony this is probs about $30. - Minor changes on the VRMs/Mainboard, Wi-Fi7, PSU & Heatsink/Thermal Interface. Let's say $20. - R&D Recoup of ~$30 over ~10mil units in 4yrs. Overall you're probably looking at a system thay costs Sony ~ $140 more. They could've forgone the SSD upgrade and relegated it to a wider release 2TB non-numbered 30th anniversary unit (which is then replaced by a standard 2TB option in a year). I also would've left off stuff like Wi-Fi7 and saved that for PS6. They could've released it at $549 Digital and $649 Disc, addressed a much wider audience and still have made a respective extra ~$50 and ~$120 (the latter considering the actual bom of an optical disc unit). Instead they went way overboard shooting for ~$200 raw profit ;and no doubt most Pro owners are gonna favour a disc drive which is another ~$50 profit on top. It's reasonable to expect a markup, but this is way beyond that. This is a special blend or corporate nerves, the old Sony arrogance making a comeback and greed. The short term money men are in charge and aiming for quick cost recoups and rapid profit to the detriment of long term effectiveness. See PSVR2 for an exaggerated example. The renewed lineup should've been more like this: $349 - PS5 Slim 1TB $399 - PS5 Slim 30th Anniversary 2TB Special Edition (Available for 1 Year) $499 - PS5 Slim 30th Anniversary 2TB Numbered Limited Edition + Stand & Special Extras (12,300 Units) $549 - PS5 Pro 1TB $599 - PS5 Pro 30th Anniversary 2TB Special Edition (Available for 1 Year) $699 - PS5 Pro 30th Anniversary 2TB Numbered Limited Edition + Stand & Special Extras (12,300 Units) $99 - Universal Disc Drive for PS5 Slim & PS5 Pro There'd perhaps be a small haircut on the base digital unit but everything up from there would still be ranging from small to significant profit margins while getting more people into the ecosystem, retaining more people in the ecosystem, improving the brand image and giving a lower barrier of entry to a higher quality experience for a wider audience. Let's not forget that while folks keep rolling out "processor chips aren't getting cheaper like they used to"; the cost reductions in the RAM chips, the SSD chips and other minor components will have knocked ~$100 off the bom in the last 4yrs. So they will have gone from straddling the break even line at launch to being in comfortably in profit. They even increased the price of the digital unit. They are selling the base PS5 units at the same or higher costs not because it's some urgent necessity but because they can just about get away with it (they're tracking just shy of PS4 despite a 50% premium). There's a reasonable middleground here where a markup can be had at an intermediate price point while still widening the audience somewhat and increasing customer satisfaction and brand respect which helps over the mid to long term; but unfortunately those short-term money men don't consider these tangible currencies and it's all about the quick bucks. The only passionate people I see at PS now are Cerny and the core hardware development teams. Along with the software guys on the SDKs. They're all doing a great job, but the studios are all over the place as of late, the heads are throwing hundreds of millions away on stuff no one wants and the higher ups seem to have no real reverance for the brand and fail to realise the immense potential of PlayStation There was a time when PlayStation and Sony in general were a prime example of a company that knew where it's bread was buttered; and an excellent eg. of a cut-throat corporation that was tempered just-so, and balanced out perfectly with execs that were genuinely invested in the company alongside the financial interest.
You can't go from 60 to 120 fps with just 45% performance boost. But hopefully it will get a 90hz update, that should solve the very annoying reprojection blur and ghosting.
Wait so the PS5 Pro is basically just a $700 upscaler? wtf? In marketing they made it sound like you will be able to use the PS5 fidelity mode but at 60fps and it doesn’t even do that it seems more like performance mode is still being used but now with PSSR. This thing is laughably bad.
@@Spartan_83hilarious that u would comment this on a DF video.. Richard literally said in the IGN interview that a comparable PC would be a lot more expensive when u include everything.. but keep spouting nonsense
@@onlymoolz Actually not a lot more expensive you can build a 4070 PC with a better cpu for around $950-1050. The 4070 is about 20% faster than the PS5 Pro GPU and no online fees so it’s cheaper in two years.
As for the comment on the RTX 4090, I think the 4090 is absolutely going to be relative longer than anyone's current CPU...for a few years. As noted by Ollie and inferenced in other episodes, CPU's are really the current bottlenecks. As long as the console's are significantly weaker than the PC, the 4090 will be amazing. Not only that, but the consoles use AMD GPUs which lag significantly behind DLSS and ray tracing. It is a great point to refernce back to the Crysis days of 2007 and even earlier where games couldn't be maxed for a few years and even when they could, it required multiple GPUs and very low resolution. The 4090 allows essentially 2K native resolution then upscaled to 4K with 60FPS on maxed everything. With a select few titles requiring frame generation then that 60 goes to about 100FPS. I have NO issues with graphics at max on a 4090 and an amd 5900x which is far from the best CPU. I need a CPU over a 5090 GPU.
@@currywurst2434 Yeah that's kinda my point because even I cannot get a locked 60 in Elden Ring due to CPU and that's why I think a lot of games are still going to be quite a disappointment. The limiting factor of the CPU is quite a problem I think.
For those who question about PSSR running on base PS5, it depends, one thing to point out is this RDNA2 has no BF16 data type silicon, which is the AI Accelerators. And If PSSR relies on this BF16 silicon to run, then the base PS5 cannot use PSSR. The BF16 silicon is what differentiates the Pro version from the base PS5. So if Sony says that PSSR cannot run on the base model then this is the main reason.
Tlou2 remastered already has a photo realistic fidelity mode - as did tlou pet 1 (ps5). The issue is that when enabled - even with my LGc2 w low lag and vrr etc- the game develops a horrendous motion blur (not related to a setting) and a significant lag- to the point of it being unplayable imo. If ps5 pro can replicate that fidelity or native 4K without the blur / lag and also keep a decent frame rate (48-60) then pro prob is worth it for people with large or premium TVs.
All they need to do for Alan Wake 2 really is clean up the crappy FSR2 with PSSR, stabilize the framerate, and maybe add some more RT, then again already beat this game and played most of these already, lol
Would like to see you guys run a Test on Gran Truism 7 PS5 Pro vs PS5 quality in PSVR2 for quality & if any improvements are made there, I spend quite a lot of time playing GT7 with the PSVR2 in competitive racing & it is very fun for immersion purposes but there are some notable LOD/pop in of details on the standard PS5
The PS5 Pro is €799 in Europe, exactly €50 too expensive compared to $699 and I think that's a disgrace on Sony's part. ($699 -> €625.54 * 1.19 VAT => €744.39 including VAT in Germany). Normalized that would be €749 for the digital PS5 Pro. What do you think about that, why do we Europeans have to pay €50 more? Someone has to explain that to me.
I remember people had exactly the same rethoric about “new realms of pricing”, when Apple started to sell iphones for 1000$. And now every flagship phone costs at least 1k. So, brace yourselves, it’s only the beginning)
Sony is not focusing on what is should, making nice games and not focus entirely on realism. We had some great games that had nothing to do with realism in the last couple years like Astro Bot and Hi-Fi Rush. Both games are fairly simple, but very well made. Nintendo is making fun games for the entire lifespan of the Switch, the same can't be said about Sony and the PS5.
I think the real issue is not that it's $700. Sure, high, but it doesn't have a disc drive. It's a console, that's predecessor was sold with a disc drive. A majority of users have a disc collection. That's just absolutely scummy.
@@TheRamboss Yeah, but with tax and drive and stand its not a 700 dollar console anymore, which would be expensive enough and 200 bucks more than the PS5 ;) In europe its like 950 Euros with disc drive and stand.
You guys are so good at what you do, hats of to you all. Keep up the excellent work. Love hearing Alex and Oliver talk about the techniques in theese videos.
Sony's footage got bumped for contrast? The matched caps are quite a bit off in tone, it would be unfortunate if they're smashing the contrast ratio for cheap pops.
But vote for what? Sony couldn't just magically produce a three times as powerful chip for the same price, that's simply not how it works. You basically have to work with whatever chips TSMC can provide at that time, and that depends on what manufacturing machinery ASML is able to provide.
@@NeovanGoth the options when voting with your wallet is buy or not buy. Alternatively you could buy someone else's product. I personally won't buy a ps5pro the upgrade isn't worth it for me. But I also didn't own a PS4 pro. Look at the PS3 if the product doesn't sell Sony will look for different options. The people are acting as if they are being forced to buy the console.
Here, I've assembled a comparison in like for like scenes with the PS5 vs PS5 PRO: PS5:😕 PS5 Pro:🙁 PS5:😌 PS5 Pro:😔 PS5:👦 PS5 Pro:🧑 The differences are striking.
Yeesh, with a 2ms cost for PSSR, that means the 45% GPU upgrade actually decreases to 27% This means only a maximum of 12.6% improvement in base resolution (1.126x width * 1.126x height = 1.267x) if you use PSSR. That is nothing. Yes, PSSR resolves things nicer than FSR, but it doesn't have any extra detail than FSR. It's just a cleaner resolve. Base PS5 already has FSR, so you're not increasing detail by much here. Is it nice to have a cleaner resolve? Of course. Is the minimal upgrade in resolution AT MOST and a nicer resolve really worth the price of the console? Absolutely not.
@@борисрябушкин-з9н It won't look similar unless the 30fps mode has no temporal upscaling. That's why Sony is focusing on titles like TLOU2 which didn't have any temporal upscaling before. Most games which already have temporal upscaling will have exactly the same level of detail at 60fps, just with a cleaner resolve, so less artifacts, but the same level of detail.
Rich the guy who stated in a previous video they will stop counting pixels and judge on final image quality. John also called pixel counting silly. Yet they still rush out a video based on nothing but a quick trailer and count pixels to get hits...
@@PixelBaller I've never heard them describe pixel counting as "silly". If they did then that would ironically be silly on them because it's part of their core analysis of games. People want to know the resolution and the only way to do that is to count pixels.
In Norway, the PS5 Slim Digital costs less than half of what the PS5 Pro costs currently. PS5 Slim Digital is 4790,- NOK and PS5 Pro is 10190,- NOK. Nobody is going to spend over double the amount of money on a PS5 Pro than the regular PS5 Slim Digital (both come without a disc drive and stand). It's ridiculous. Basically the PS5 Pro almost costs the same as a RTX 4080 Super OC edition.
An important distinction between dlss and pssr is that dlss runs on the tensor cores, not the main shaders. This means when dlss is running, it's not taking shaders away from Raster performance, and they are working in parallel with the raster shaders, masking the vast majority of frame time latency. Pssr seems to be sectioning off a portion of the ps5 pros 60 cu's to be used for compute operations like pssr. This seems to be a good reason why Sony is claiming only a 45% render power increase over the ps5 (about 15 tflops 45% more rendering power than ps5), when 60 cu's at 2.35 ghz is more like a 75% render power increase over ps5 (about 18 tflops). It appears they are sectioning off 3 tflops worth of cu's for compute like pssr. (When used for an upscaling solution like this, it will not still be 3 tflops, it will be used with wmma which would accelerate by a factor of 8, or 512 flops/ops per cu per clock) So something like 50 cu's for raster (15 Tflops, 45% more render power than ps5), and 10 cu's for compute. These 10 cu's will be for running wmma, possibly rdna4 swmmac (2x sparsity boost.) So we have the following possibilities: Rdna3 wmma: 512 X 10 cu's X 2.35 ghz = 12 Tflops fp16, or int8, or 24 Tflops int4 (int4 gets 1024 ops per cu per clock) Rdna4 swmmac: 512 X 10 cu's X 2(sparsity) x2.35 ghz = 24 Tflops fp16 or TOPS int8, or 48 Tops Int4. This seems to be what is powering pssr if I had to guess. If instead of sectioning off 10 cu's for ml compute, we didn't do any raster (graphics rendering) at all and just used every cu for compute we would get: 60x512x2.35 = 72 Tflops fp16 (2.18 ghz = 67 tflops) or 72 Tops int 8, or 144 Tops int 4. If for some reason we ran fp16 wmma only at 2.18 ghz, and only int4 had sparsity and was ran at 2.35 ghz, we would get 67 Tflops fp16, and 288 Tops int4, roughly matching the leaked ps5pro documentation.
@Shehryar89 I am aware of what mlid tried to interpret, but pretty much every single other source has contradicted mlid on this, Including the leaked documentation which specifically said the 300 Tops was "Machine learning capabilities of the ***GPU***". Also as should be very very evident, pssr simply doesn't have the performance of an image reconstructor with access to upwards of 300 Tops, which typically perform the job around 0.0X something ms up to faster than can be polled, not 2 ms.
If you “jump into the pc space” you also have to spend $600 for a Dell 4K monitor, for example. Which the monitor alone puts you at the price for a 2TB Xbox series or PS5 Pro.
I wonder, looking at the internal resolutions of such Alan Wake 2, if SONY has not come up with a way that in the case of FSR 2, the developers do not even have to update the game, and the console itself can replace FSR on PSSR. And with this, for example, any game that uses FSR 2.0+ will have the AMD solution overwritten by PSSR on the PS5 Pro.
we already know the answer no, it will be up to the developers to go back to those titles and great majority probably wont fsr2 is honestly one of the ugliest image qualities I've seen this gen, it turns everything into a muddy blur artifacty mess when anything is in motion
9:35 "The economics don't work" Not sure I buy that. I guess it's hard to say for sure but I think the PS5 pro could be less than $699 and SIE would be fine/profitable.
It not being economically viable would be an argument if sony wasn't pumping people for all they're worth with 70 dollar digital games and tiers of subscription services on top of the hardware price. like PCs are expensive but at least you can get the games extremely cheaply
@@aerithgrowsflowers That's why I specified Digital there. Cartridge games were expensive because that's the end retail price of a whole extra circuit board sold in a physical shop who are also taking a cut. Digital squeezes a lot of extra profit cutting out all of that plus the used market too. Gonna bring up the Randnet subscription too whilst you're at it? lol
A 2tb series x cost 600$ , a ps5 pro cost 700$ with much better hardware A series x cost 500$ with 1tb hdd, an expansion card cost 130$ currently on amazon bringing the total cost to 630$ Series x does not have ai upscaling or improved ray tracing performance. So in reality a ps5 pro cost 70$ more than a series x 1tb hard drive is not enough space for modern games so you will have to get a expansion card .
@@cloudycolacorp You're complaining about expensive games that are much cheaper than they were 30 years ago for some perspective. Regardless of why, you're not entitled to better deals. You buy it or you don't. If a seller wants to make their games more enticing to you, they'll lower the price. All you did was explain why games cost less while complaining they are still too expensive. It costs what it costs and you buy it or you don't.
The TLoU2 side by side clearly shows how PSSR Quality can improve image quality over native 4K on the left so i think it is interesting in that sense, it shows the true potential of it and thats why im dissapointed in the implementation shown in the other games, specially stuff like Alan Wake 2 when they are using the same base resolutions as the base PS5.
People need to understand that majority of gamers, which are now in their 20s all the way to 50s, are not hardcore gamers. They enjoy multiplayer games (only a select few) that they play with their friends, or they enjoy single player games. Most of all, they prefer plug and play. While also not paying too much for the whole experience. Why? No time. We just don't have time to constantly look at game seasonal sales, or stay up to date on all Computer Tech. Heck, we barely find enough time to game and stay a "Gamer" at heart. Yes, as such a gamer I do think PS5 Pro is expensive, because this is the first console which is priced so high. And in this economy? Damn. But what I want from my PS5 experience is more 60 fps and more 'crisper' image (looking at you FF7 Rebirth). My point is, I am tired of people saying 'build a PC and stay happy'. I will show why that idea sucks bad. - 1. Today games are heavily optimised for consoles. To run the same games, with same settings on PC require much better hardware (that is what I gathered over the years). Meaning, much more investment compared to 700$ PS5 Pro. 2. To build a PC, one needs knowledge of it. Because if one doesn't possess such knowledge, it is very possible to make decisions which are bad in the long run (for the consumer) or to which people can say "oh no what did you do? you should have bought this, this is more bang for the buck". All this considering the fact that some other guy/company will assemble your PC and ship it to you (they also take a separate charge to do so. They should right? Not sure). Consoles are good for what they are, they sit between casual (mobile gaming) and hardcore (PC gaming), I would say more towards hardcore. As I said earlier, I don't like that price. But I will buy the console next year. I know some stuff about graphics (I am here, aren't I?), that is why. I know many people that own a PS5, just play best games they hear about from their PS Plus library and enjoy it without thinking much about DRS or ray tracing or bla bla bla
Even though I already own a gaming PC, I plan on picking up the Pro. People act like they're mutually exclusive to own. It's silly. I realize not everyone can afford both, and I'm grateful that I can, but they offer different things. If I only have an hour to play after work, I just want to plop on the couch and play console.
No one I know still on PS4 is compelled by this. The people I know on PS5 who wanted higher fidelity are going for gaming PCs. I don't know who this is for.
If you want a disc drive so you can play the ps4/5 games you already own it's gonna be more expensive. If you want multiplayer for anything but Fortnite and a couple other titles, it's gonna be more expensive. Yes, the console hardware is subsidized. A big part of that is gonna be your ps+ subscription. If you bought a ps5 digital at launch for $400 and you've had basic ps+ since, you'll have spent as much on the subscription as the console itself come this November. We're not getting more with the software. It's basically the same as Steam, but on PS you have the privilege of paying extra for things PC gamers get for free, like multiplayer and cloud saves.
I cannot be the only person who is annoyed that DF talks about the internal resolution of PSSR but refers to DLSS by the output resolution. For example the internal resolution of a 4k output resolution using DLSS Quality mode is gernerally 1440p or higher, and a 1440p output resolution using DLSS is generally 720p or higher. Its almost like a deliberate attempt to confuse people when referring to the two hardware AI upscaling models. I hope for future PS5 pro videos they either stick with all internal resolutions or all output resolutions when referring to comparisons between PS5 pro and PC. As it stands now....comparing internal resolution (which the user doesn't see) .....say 864p to the output resolution....which is 1440p on PC and console is confusing. This is especially true because it tends to give the impression that the PC version is higher resolution than it actually is internally and undermines the fact that like PSSR, DLSS is a Hardware AI upscaling solution.
Nope, I think its funny before DLSS came around people would bash consoles saying "Its not real 4k" , but then they pretend their little 4070 is "running 4k ultra!" with dlss
Yupp - they are just pleasing the PC fanboys. Consoles runs games 720p -scaled by FSR to 1440p. And it is just 720p... (Despite it is FSR2.0 1440p Performance) PC runs impressive 1440p DLSS performance - which is also scaled from 720p Digital Foundry is a joke sometimes. On that test you can see that PSSR are even better than DLSS but nobody says that.
@@lechistanskiswit320 As with anyone, they're human and they're fallible. Bias affects everyone to a certain degree. No outlet will ever be 100% objective. A simple fact.
@@notsyzagts7967 The problem isn't that they have a bias... the problem is presenting that bias as unbiased objective information. In this circumstance it borders on a lie of omission....they aren't telling you something that is not true, they just aren't telling the whole truth for one platform vs the other which makes any comparison not worth discussing because that discussion stems from bias.
But to be fair to DF, it is probably a moot point though as DLSS quality on a 4070 or higher will almost certainly deliver a better quality 4K image (upscaled from 1440p), at higher framerates than the PS5 Pro's 60fps target. That is implied in DF's analysis - and DLSS only gets better with other techniques like frame generation, ray reconstruction etc.
I would like (Rich) and Digital Foundry to purchase the first PC that has the same SOC which is inside the PS5 Pro: OneXPlayer OneXGPU 2, so that when the PS5 Pro launches Digital Foundry can do a head to head comparison with both devices
I hope they do go the route of offering multiple tiers with PS6. I think base PS6 Digital for $550, and a PS6 Pro for $800 at launch would be great. Then a mid gen refresh for each, with prices rising to $600 for PS6 Slim (maintaining OG specs), and $1,000 for PS6 Pro Slim (pushing a mid gen upgrade in performance and technology). All model will sell digitally, with an optional disc drive similar to current models of PS5.
I hope Sony implements PSSR in a way that when it gets an update, every game automatically uses the latest version.
yeah, shared lib on the system rather than statically linked into the executable of the game.
on there website they say 55 games will be supported day one from this generation and all future games will have enhanced versions
+PISSER
wishful tinkin
I'm curious on how it will handle static UI elements, my guess is developers have to specify it because even though it's AI, it's not trained on each game individually
Sony out here selling a $700 eye exam
Lmaoo
underrated
It may also run pathrace games In locked 60 if it supports frame Gen.
@@ingamgoduka57 wow..
@@ingamgoduka57who cares $700 pay for that loss from concord
The Mark Cerny Sith meme was just pure art
Yeah it was priceless, the PS5 probe video on TH-cam is also hilarious where Cerny's words are edited and says the PS5 Pro runs at 6fps. 😂
43:12 true love right there, gazing into each other’s eyes.
😆
🫶
😂😂😂😂
LMAOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
Hahahaha
Showing off TLOU 2 is contentious because of how many times they've gone back to that well!
Started on PS4, got PS5 backwards compatibility enhancements, got a PS5 Remaster, and now PS5 Pro Enhancements?
Maybe if we went from PS4 to PS5 Pro Remaster it would be impressive, but these small iterations make it seem so insignificant overall.
Just you wait. The first PS6 demo will be a new and comprehensively ray-traced, native 4k, 120 fps TLOU2.
With slightly better explosions and water effects.
And a new art gallery to unlock.
And a complimentary key ring with a laminated picture of Neil Druckman.
Go Sony.
last of us 2 was never on ps4 you are thinking of part 1
@@Jordanbiggs1473wrong
TLOU2 was on PS4. Source: I just played through it for the first time on PS4. Amazing game.@@Jordanbiggs1473
@@Jordanbiggs1473 TLOU 2 was definitely on PS4.
Image quality for FFVII Rebirth, Star Wars Outlaws, Space Marine 2, and Returnal would all *really* benefit from PSSR.
120fps of returnal would be amazing
I would add Final Fantasy 16 to that list as well
But FPS won’t….image quality we will never notice…
A Returnal update would be amazing
@@LukijsFroGo
The benefits of PC!
That story about mark cerny the wise was chefs kiss
Not a dig, just made me laugh, but the idea of everyone waiting for DF's professional analysis in the wake of Sony's lack thereof, to then get it and be presented with a huge zoom of Ellie's butt got me. Take notes, Sony, this is how you present P-ASS-ASS-R.
lol. Jokes aside, I think those who are more "techy" need to see a more methodical breakdown, that's why we have been waiting for DF to do this. And yeah, personally I think PSSR is the biggest selling point considering many PS4 games will benefit from it.
@@TheEffectOfMass Sony absolutely wasted Cerny's introduction. It could have been done by anyone in that 9 minute clip.
SONY knew if they let DF review it that they would expose them day 1 about the small bs upgrade.
@@solonepeon5805 They said they were provided with high resolution files. Also that wasn't their conclusion. It's like you didn't watch the video.
@@robf Agreed. It was not a good showing of the console.
1:07:14 I think the point of the PS5 Pro price is to convince people to finally buy the already expensive PS5 base model and move on from their PS4s already
Clever take
I thought of getting a ps5 as a gift for someone and this was the first sigh of relief I thought of, getting their officially announced refurbished base models for less. If this was their goal, it’s working
Used PS5s are sold for their prices already or cheaper but with 1 year warranty it is a much better deal than a PS5 pro
In my gaming gang, 7/10 are still on PS4
Though Gta 6 will do the trick i think
People still playing on PS4? 🧐
ProRes is also an intra frame codec. Which means it does not use information from previous frames for the encoding, like for instance h264/5 (those are inter-frame codecs) do. Every frame is encoded "by itself" which should be ideal for judging image quality from games that use DLSS and such.
It is technically possible to get intra-frame versions of h.264 and h.265, but you lose about 90% of the compression potential. Essentially most people/programs don’t use intra-frame. If you want to optimize for quality it is usually a lot better to bump the inter-frame bitrate rather than going for intra-frame.
Another huge difference between typical h.264/5 and ProRes, is that all ProRes versions have 4:2:2 chroma sub-sampling (or better), while the inter-frame formats typically have 4:2:0 chroma sub sampling. The difference isn’t too obvious on real footage, but graphics and strong colors usually look a lot less sharp at 4:2:0 than 4:2:2.
Essentially 4:2:2 means the red and blue color channels have half resolution, and 4:2:0 means red and blue have only a quarter of the resolution of the luminance channel. 4:4:4 would be full resolution in all color channels. The reason why 4:2:0 usually looks ok is because our eyes are much worse at seeing changes in color than seeing changes in brightness.
Edit for more information about 4:2:0:
If you ever wondered why pure red (or blue) text on a black background looks more pixelated than it should be, it is because the red (or blue) chroma channel has no luminance data to blend with, causing the graphics to reveal the true resolution of the red (or blue) channel in 4:2:0. Meaning even if the video is 1080p, the reds (or blues) have a resolution looking more like 540p. At 4K though the reds would have a resolution of 1080p causing it to be a lot less noticeable. So higher resolution overall can compensate for bad chroma sub sampling.
Pixelation like this only applies to black backgrounds. A white background will likely cause it to look softer, but not pixelated. If you ever want to have text on a clean black background avoid pure red or blue. Make sure there is at least some data in the other color channels to avoid pixelation.
If you want an example it is actually visible on the Netflix logo of the new Netflix Cyberpunk teaser on TH-cam.
@@motionblurgamer love how one can leasurely get on some pro res/video format discussion here in the DF channel
Motion JPEG also is an intra frame codec, and it can look terrible if compressed to aggressively. ;) Meanwhile you can easily make H.264 or 265 look almost indistinguishable from the ground truth by simply using a high enough bit rate.
ProRes isn't an intra frame codec to increase the output quality, but to make editing more efficient, since you can instantly jump to every frame without having to decode any previous frames; means scrubbing is _much_ faster. The better output quality however comes from the fact that ProRes uses very high bit rates and even supports raw data coming directly from a camera's sensor.
So it seems to me from this that the PS5 Pro will heavily rely on PSSR which isn't really a bad thing if done well. It's just where the industry is going. AMD and Nvidia are investing in upscaling tech because it's economical.
30tflop gpu and it has to upscale ,think
@@shaundavidssd yes! 4k is extremely taxing.
I game on a 4090 on a 4k LG OLED and I still need to upscale from 1440p to 4k for very demanding games.
Consoles have been using resolution stretching upscaling, checkerboard rendering and dynamic resolution for years before it came to PC.
PCs are just adopting approaches consoles have used for the last decade, and why not?
If the results are good who cares.
@@shaundavidssd There's no reason not to upscale with 4k TVs in a living room, it's the best use of the power they have.
Yeah devs basically get to push graphics settings higher instead of resolution and let the advanced machine learning algorithm handle the latter.
I think this has been common wisdom since the PS3 era but we are at a point where AI upscaling methods are so good it's getting indistinguishable from native res!
Brought a screen cleaner and managed the same visional improvements.
Just hope you didn't pay $700 for it..
@jimbob8992 spray nozzle was sold separately, though.
@@richardroulstone-roberts8598😂😂😂
@@richardroulstone-roberts8598
Can you put the bottle down vertically when you’re not using it, or do you have to lay it on its side?
@LordBeef horizontally but with zero content luckily , picture quality vastly improved, stopped blinking to really enjoy the frame rate properly.
That Darth Plagueis bit was great.
4 out of 5 younglings would recommend.
Darth Plagueis is the pro, and ps5 base is sidious. Who lived?
Small note: eg. 50:43 Reflections on the black pickup truck look blurry and low res because cars in GT7 become dirty during race... and that "dirt" makes reflectios looking too blurry. It's the same on the normal PS5. Whe you start the race reflectiosn are sharp and clear, and later they become to look like in this footage. IMO it's strange and rather bad implementation of the "dirt" effect on the car body.
What kills it for me is the lack of water droplets on the car's. With all that snow clearly the cars should be wet looking to a degree, looking bone dry ruins the overall great looking Ray Tracing imo.
It's the lack of a disc drive that's killing me. You're alienating everyone who wants to play their physically owned games on new hardware. After taxes, buying a PS5 Pro and drive would cost 900 dollars. I also can't justify spending 800 on a console to only play upcoming titles digitally.
Do what I did. Buy the drive now, knowing it won’t depreciate in value in the long-term, and if the PS5 Pro isn’t for you… sell the drive.
The same demographic that will pay $700 for a console isn’t fretting over an $80 (or in the case of the stand, $30) cost. That’s Sony’s general calculus anyway.
It's not for you, we live in a society where the 1% drive everything 😢
You physical only gamers are so dense. 😂
@@TheMrNukeman I think it's a good idea cause it reduces game costs and preserves games. Of course, Sony hates it cause why it's probably reduces sales by a certain percentage especially in Japan but all the more reason to have it.
If you already have a PS5 you can get a bit back from selling that. It'd more than cover the cost of the disc drive
You just know they're gonna have an official update to elden ring that makes the framerate unstable again lmao
That would be pretty funny but it won’t. A PS5 Pro patch would require work on FromSoftwares part so you just know it will not happen.
@@renato898sad but true hahaha
@@renato898 FromSoftware for all there achievements are lazy as fuck when it comes to polishing there games
@@divicity4581 Armored Core 6 was really polished.
@@faceurhell ok apart from that aha
I'd love to see Metro Exodus on PS5 Pro. That game had super low render resolution and FSR2 upscaling. Add more power, improve the RT performance, and replace FSR2 with PSSR and it'd be a world of difference in picture quality.
I thought exodus look good on PS5, at least that was the impression I got from watching the DF videos.
That's crazy that the PS5 fidelity mode and PS5 Pro comparison was actually comparing PSSR vs native and doesn't really look any different. Sony didn't communicate that very well. If it was clear that the actual point is to see no difference when PSSR is being used vs native but you gain double the frame rate, the reaction might have been a bit more positive. Instead of seeing people on social media shooting Sony by using that comparison screenshot and memeing it saying they can't see the difference as negative.
They did mention it. The average person just doesn’t get what dlss and tech like it does.
No new Wild ARMs. No new Ape Escape. No new Killzone. No new Twisted Metal. No new Wipeout. No new Syphon Filter...
Just the nittiest of nitpickings...
@@ChaosAngelZero Well yeah, beyond the barely visible graphics upgrades and the "wait is it April Fool's" price tag, the absolute lack of new games was astonishing.
The thing is, if you compare TLoU1 PS3 and PS4 versions, the difference in fidelity and performance is pretty obvious. Now, if you compare even base PS4 to PS5 Pro TLoU2 versions, the difference is so much smaller it's a joke.
If anything it just makes me appreciate what an amazing technical achievement it was to get TLoU1 running on PS3 that well at all, rather than TLoU2 being substantially better on the PS5 Pro compared to any other version.
So you can basically pay £699 to be reminded how many exclusive games the PS5 doesn't have considering a lot of PS4 games were running slightly better on the base PS5 already and the PS5 in general has been trading on the PS4's library since launch now, while not building one of it's own.
Medieval, Battle Arena Toshinden, Ridge Racer. All we get is upscaling and bags of latency that comes with it
Wow, I forgot all these titles that made me thirst for a PS1/2 as a child, now I'm more frustrated with their current direction. They used to have so many cool sounding games, and now I'm more than happy with just a PC
They could sell the PS5 Pro if only they would announce Jumping Flash! 3.
No new the Getaway.
1:52:11 Rich is wrong here; the PS5 did have a game reveal. The Demon's Souls remake. And I'm pretty sure that contributed in a very big way to the hype for the announcement, because in 2020 that thing looked unbelievably good.
Still does
@@themightyant. Oh definitely, but in 2020 we hadn't seen anything remotely close to that on a console.
Incidentally Demon's Souls was in the sizzle reel for PS5 pro but they haven't covered it. It was another game though that already had a decent 1440p locked 60fps mode. Would have loved to see what they do with Returnal on the pro as well.
The PS5 Pro is a dream come true for DF. Content, content, content…
Oh yeah, people complaining about a screwed up console release every time they release a video about it. What a dream.
@1nvisibleAcropolisyour opinion right, in my opinion they can do that and they do.
Useless console
@@Valpremier which makes every other console utterly the pits right? No, in the console space, removing overpriced PC’s, consoles are great and PS5 pro is the best of them.
bros been doing this for years
Truly can’t get enough of Last of Us remasters.
@@hdhdhhehe6709 I actually think they'll double pack the two TLoU remasters again into an "optimised for PS5 Pro" collector's edition or something like it because really, at this point, what else have they got? I just wonder how many times they can repackage essentially the exact same things for profit before people realise how stupid they're being to pay for the same thing over and over.
@@garydiamondguitarist Please stop
43 mins in and none of this is making me think this should be a $700 videogame console
Same
700 Euros would be bad, but i would perhaps still have considered buying it, cause i'm a sucker for new consoles and probably wouldn't have thought too much about it (if i really need it). But its 950 Euros with discdrive and stand in europe (and also more than 700 in the US, Tax and Discdrive etc.). And Switch 2 is coming out next year. If i sell my PS5 i get like 400 bucks for it. I would have to lay over 500 bucks on top of that PS5 money for a Pro. I mean most of the games still run on PS4, i probably could even live with my old PS4 Pro.
feel the same about a 4090
Then don't do it. 🤷♂️ It's an offering, not an obligation.
@@NeovanGothWe aren't. We're just going to shame everyone who does.
They know 8K isn't a target as the market is incredible niche, at best. Those TVs have more of less gone the way of 3D TVs. The implementation in GT7 will probably mainly function as a marketing tool and be akin to a gimmick.
I'm sure they'll come back it's just currently there's not much content that's recorded at that resolution. The movie industry will likely push 8k at some point and that will filter down to TV recordings and then Games will be the last to adopt.
I believe it's more like the simple fact that by supporting a certain HDMI standard, you kinda automatically get support for 8k output with it. It's just a matter of available bandwidth in the connection.
Yup. In fact the packaging for the PS5 Pro doesn’t have an 8K badge, so it seems like Sony has officially moved on from using 8K as a selling point for the masses.
If Sony manages to get away with selling a midgen console, that at a face value offers far less of an upgrade than PS4 Pro with only 45% better GPU, for €800 without a disc drive (which is literally double the price of PS4 Pro) then I am scared to even imagine the price of a true next generation console.
Certainly 999€ if it comes with a disk drive.
The 5 Pro will do a lot more for frame rates than the 4 Pro did.
PS4 pro was a jump but in reality it was more about pushing more pixels. The PS5 Pro will have better image quality overall.
@@Feanaro5503FPS, not at all. 4 Pro had like a 38% (something like that don’t recall exact) CPU frequency bump. 5 Pro has an optional 10% bump at max. Only thing helping frame rates here potentially is PSSR. 4 Pro did much more for frame rates overall % wise than the 5 Pro will ever hope to achieve. It’s just the 5 has good baseline performance already.
Great analysis. One thing to note is that the PS5 Pro starts their pre-orders on Sept 26th, the same day that the Tokyo Game Show kicks off. It will be curious to see what titles will be announced at the event that make significant use of the PS5 Pro.
lol if they had anything they would have shown it
@@x100bulletsTokoyo game show
Not to mention, rumored state of play some time B4 TGS
@@x100bullets wrong. They did the same thing for the ps4 pro.
Great point! Will be super interesting for sure.
Wow, so the PS5 Pro was supposed to be about no compromises/trade-offs, and now it looks like there are going to be compromises/trade-offs. Sigh.
@@AnthonyTripoli Yep. No improvements or upgrades to CPU, SSD speed, amount of RAM, a 45% "improvement" to the GPU for a nearly 200% price jump over a base Slim Digital which itself could hit the 2TB storage with a simple SSD slot upgrade. And that GPU boost is mostly via frame gen/interpolation techniques which I already consider a cheating way to get more frames.
I have a 7800X3D and a 4090 and aim for 4k120, there are some games where you need to compromise. Usually on base resolution before DLSS upscale even going down to 1080p (DLSS performance) in some heavy or path traced games.
There will always be compromise of some sort regardless of what you buy, unless you play old gen games or target lower resolutions and frame rates.
Is the PS5Pro disappointing still? Yes, for the price especially outside the US for example it's $1380NZD in New Zealand. Insane.
@@garydiamondguitarist Probably should check your math there.
@@murderface7744 Sony is basically doing this on a smaller, lamer scale and overcharging it. All this console is a glorified upscaler for aging hardware. Like the gpu has a slight increase in performance, everything else is the same as the base model.
@@mak0bac0 Probably should keep snarky comments to yourself there 😂
Watching this convinced me that just the standard ps5 with disk drive is good enough for me! Thank you!
I use my PC (7800X3D/4090) in the living room, connected to a 65" LG CX. The "no living room" argument has gone out the window with hdmi 2.1 on high end GPUs and will be come even less relevant with future releases of GPUs. Wireless KMB are insanely fast to the point they are near as fast as wired now. A simple lapboard is all you need for KBM tasks and gaming.
Those are "arguments" from the 2010s
Nobody wants to use windows in the living room
Next time you squint or have to click a tiny "ok" box, remember you're wrong and have an incredibly niche set-up that nobody wants. I'm sure it works for "you" but thankfully, you are not the arbiter of good sense or taste.
With DLSS you could have gotten the same experience with a 4080 AND taken all your friends out for dinner.
Bro same! 4090/7800x3d and 65" LG G4
same here, 4090/7800x3d on samsung s95d. i’ve been pc gaming on a tv for at least 15yrs and enjoyed it very much.
PS6 be like:
- $999
- No disc drive
- Digital only
- Online-only games with Always-On DRMs implemented that could be shut down at any time in the future
"You'll own nothing and be happy".
Bruh in the end time you’ll only be able to buy and sell with the mark of the beast, so who cares anyways. You don’t own nothing that you think you own, the government can’t take all your property and you could only cry
The enthusiast version of a product never dictates the direction of the mainstream product.
@WarCrab-009SS name another time that's happened in product history?
True, look around though! @@NineTails87
No stand, and has to balance on a chop stick
Way too many of these upgrades are "two steps forward, one step back." GT7 especially.
If a game doesn't hit 60fps on the base PS5, you can basically always assume it's CPU limited. Otherwise developers would have either lowered the resolution manually, or dynamic resolution would have solved it. When you can't drop resolution to increase frame rate, you are CPU limited, and no amount of PS5 Pro boost mode will improve that performance. Testing on a PC with a much more powerful CPU (not to mention, code that uses the CPU differently) is useless.
OMG Funniest moment of all DF Direct Weekly 1:18:26 by LeftIsThominid - the humor is strong with that one! "Did you ever hear the tragedy of Mark Cerny the Wise?" 😂😂😂
I was watching a documentary about Rome and now I keep hearing pro-console as pro consul.
Ave Caesar! ✋😂
7:49 So keep all settings the same as base PS5, & use the AI upscaling in the PS5 Pro for better overall resolution? If thats all the PS5 Pro is bringing to the table for $700... Its a wrap
Yeah, it's not compelling whatsoever.
Can't even get true resolution anymore gotta use Ai 😂😂😂. Sony has gotten really lazy remasters and remakes galore, lack of new IP, depending on timed exclusivity to fill out their release calendar, cancelling game after only being online 2 weeks like what is going on in that company.
@@kennethyoung7457it's been a while since we last saw true resolution on any graphically demanding game on a console. Consoles have to target TV resolutions so they had to jump from 1080p to 4k which is a completely different beast rendering wise
Isn't that what DLSS does? Funny Playstation has to run 4k native 60 frames when most computers can't do that.
@@BIFFTAZ And they said it adds 2 ms to frame time to do it.
I was expecting FF7 rebirth coverage after John lit a fire on the community calling the image quality awful.
Based on this video 1080p internal upscaled to 4k via pssr the image quality might even be better than the quality on ps5 which is native 4k but has terrible post processing
Didn’t he and Alex point out that game was using awful dated upscaling that could have been fixed with a patch but now he’s hyped over a $700 “fix” after saying for years we don’t pro consoles?
It does look awful on ps5 performance mode
@@yc_030 Awful is a strong word imo did they ever call the sub 720p sub 60 on jedi awful
Why was John’s statement controversial? The game should be stunning but has awful upscaling currently. Performance mode is a blurry, muddy mess
900€ so I can play GT7 with LOWER resolution and some reflections you wont actually notice 99% of the time. There’s something very wrong with this generation.
Then don't buy it, and never do in the future.
I think the issue is that when you start getting into this price tier, being picky about how much you spend stops being as much of an issue for those willing to drop the money? Like if I'm going to start bordering $1000, what's to stop me bumping that up 10% -15% and getting a vastly superior experience with a PC with more games and free (essentially) online play? The selling point of consoles (including Pro tier) has largely become, in recent years, low entry fee (maybe not low fee over time, necessarily). Especially as they've more or less lost a lot of the benefits they once had over PCs in the past, it's become harder to justify the closed ecosystem UNLESS you get in for really cheap relative to PC. But once you're spending $800+ (I'm including features that were standard on the base model, being generous ignoring tax) on a console just to enter... why bother? If it's any indication of where PS6 pricing will be, that's a problem for Sony.
I mean i already have a PC that i use for gaming and more. And i have a PS5 with discdrive that cost me 499 Euro. I probably would have bought a PS 5 Pro (even if i'm not really needing it) for like 600 Euros (with discdrive), or highest 700, but not 950 Euro with stand and drive. If i sell my PS5 i get around 400 Bucks for it, so i would have to pay 550 Euros on top of the PS5 money just to play the same games in a bit better resolution and framerate (while i can already play most of them on PC in better graphics). 950 Bucks, thats a lot of games. I will spend that money for a Switch 2 and some games, if the Switch 2 has some exclusive games in the first year.
You will not have vastly superior experience on pc. Also console gaming is much more comfortable. So stop this pc bullshit.
@@борисрябушкин-з9н That not (if he doesn't own a 4080 or 4090), but a PC is usefull for different things. The price is just crap, double the PS5 price in europe with disc drive, thats unheard of from a Pro console and its only a GPU upgrade. If the price comes down its a nice upgrade (sadly with no discdrive included).
So...here are the possible min resolution for performance mode on PS5 Pro based on pre-release footage:
Ratchet: 728p (Alex says it at 17min38sec)
Alan Wake 2: 864p
This is very low. PSSR better be amazing to compensate..but looks like it will still be less effective than DLSS.
+
Hogwards Legacy: RT Reflections more detailed but less resolution...
GT7: RT reflection on tracks but lower resolution...daaaamn
TLOU2 shouldn't NEED PSSR though since on PS5 and especially PS5 Pro it should run at high frames and resolution natively. It's worrisome that studios are getting so dependent on tech like PSSR instead of at least trying to get games to run well natively.
exactly! what are we supposed to say when the “next gen” update from that game is going from 1440p 30 to 1440p 60 with ever so slightly less pop in? that’s NOT next gen in the slightest. look at death stranding, gave us native 4k and doubled the frames. it’s scary that the graphics renowned naughty dog couldn’t optimize atleast towards a 4k60 with fsr on the amateur ps5 using dynamic resolution or SOMETHING, and yet not even the ps5 pro can give you above 1440p resolution STILL. on a pa4 game.
Great video fellas. This will give a good amount of perspective to people interested in the Pro.
Im unsure of why anyone would be interested.
5:19 apparently they tweaked the lod levels as well. The watchtower now has transparent windows showcasing the interior
I remember noticing that in reveal and then you had people bandwagoning hurr durr its the same picture when you could see various differences
So tell me this:
Are these $700 differences ?
I would say no.
@@phant0mdummy maybe for people that didn’t buy a ps5 yet
@@phant0mdummy the difference is $250, not $700 (still a lot for just +1TB of storage and PSSR). If you want to preach a $700 difference then you have to compare it to a $0 console (good luck with that)
Almost. I would prefer a disc drive and a $600-650 cost and $550-600 cost with the base models dropping $50 respectively @@shifu9276
Honest opinion is that 95% of Sony's fanbase would be okay without the Pro, and that while the pro may look good it doesnt do anything for the gaming landscape at the price point.
Question: Is there sales data on what the PS4Pro introduction did to the PS4 retail market? Was there a surge in used PS4s and a drop in retail PS4 sales (because of people opting for used rather than new)? Or was there a simultaneous price drop for the PS4 that kept those units moving? What's going to happen with retail PS5 sales if you've suddenly got millions of used PS5s competing with a still-expensive new PS5?
I have a library of PS4 games on disc. So I bought a PS5 disc edition. So the few PS5 games I bought, I also bought on disc. So buying a PS5 Pro and not the disc drive would be a very stupid thing for me to do. That means I'd have to spend $780 before tax for the Pro and the disc drive to be able to play my game library.
$842.40 for a functional console for me. That's just not worth it in my book. The original PS5 does well enough for PS4 games, and for PS5 games it'd be cheaper to buy the few games I have again on PC than buy the Pro + drive.
I'm pretty much done with PlayStation, it makes more sense to wait for the PC ports at this point.
This is just my opinion as a PC player but I 100% agree. Playstation really hasn't produced many sequels this generation that I would consider buying into the platform to play on Day 1. The exceptions so far seem to be Astro Bot and Demon's Souls which I suspect that neither of these are not to receive ports.
You dont need to have pc. Play only on consoles.
You can always count on Oliver for a solid take 1:11:48
I disagree
I think people will take from this what they want to hear. But for me, it boils down to: You can pay $700+ for a PS5 Pro, but you need a DF Crew to know and validate why you paid $700+
I sit like 3 feet from a 55" screen. I'll notice.
@@AbraCaStabra ….like I said. What you want to hear.
Cash grab at its finest. Been that way all generation.
@@nerdsandotherlegends652or you want the extra image quality and fps? That’s not taking what you want to hear, that’s just a fact of what this console will provide. Whether that’s worth the money for someone is entirely up to them.
Despite having a gaming PC, what it boils down to is that I'm going to get the best versions of PS5 exclusives, PSVR2 games, and GTA 6 at launch
Thank you Oliver one person more in touch with all gamers. All those suggestions of building or buying a PC for same price as a ps5 pro, are missing a major factor and it shows they maybe out of touch. Many mums or dads want a device that is plug and play and a PC and their complications would put a lot off. Let alone the first time Windows shits the bed or a piece of hardware starts playing up. Not to mention the awful performance these game developers produce on most platforms, but particularly the PC. It's a fair comparison just from a value perspective but not realistic for an average consumer, but then again they would be better off saving the cash and get the standard ps5. I am interested how pssr will rank against versions of dlss and fsr, which may indicate how future amd gpus will perform with a more compelling competitor to dlss. Don't forget the ps5 pro has to sell at this price because of the failure of concord.😊
@@davidmorgan3359 Exactly, clueless non-techie parents want to buy a box they can essentially throw at their child which plays the games they want, no hassle, just works Todd. Trying to spec out a custom PC build or not getting stung by a bad prebuild requires a lot of watching a channel like Gamer's Nexus and how many parents are going to do that? Almost none. Consoles are still mostly plug and play, even though they ask way too many questions during initial setup in the same way modern operating systems like Windows and macOS do.
I admire the effort and analysis of Rich, Alex and Oliver here on this topic but i still feel as a gamer that one thing is missing from all this. Its an outside the box thought these days... away from the technical stuff...... can games go back to being games again? All this push for technical details is amazing but let me put it this way. Astro Bot has been the most fun game i have played in so many years, it brings a smile, its heartwarming and its most importantly FUN, video games was designed to be fun first and foremost.
Floating over to the technical stuff. I still find it amusing that some think the Pro will be something god given. I think it will be a pretty average upgrade. The PS4 Pro was similar, better image was more the thing, checkerboarding with sometimes games with better framerates. Even the clips in this video.... there is not much going on here to suggest a major power upgrade and i guess the same CPU and having to be fully compatible with the PS5 is vital. This happened in the PS4 Pro era, having games built for the base platform first and foremost meant improvements were negligible at times, like they were tacked on, unless it was first party where more effort was made. We may see this again, especially with the cost of modern development? It's an expensive upgrade for better image quality... oh, i think Forza Motorsport now has IN GAME RT reflections?.... on PC anyway.
But as a stated at the start of my rather long reply. Games should be FUN. Give me innovative gameplay and fresh ideas over AAA drabble with top technical visuals any day..Its like having a super model as a Mrs but she is the most mundane boring girl on the planet.. who only cares about her looks and presentation because she is worried what people may think.
Internally games could even render at a LOWER resolution like 1080p, and then rely on PSSR AI upscaling to 4k. It would still look much better, and that would free up even more resources for effects or game logic etc.
@@youuuuuuuuuuutube Upscaling is a crutch in lieu of something better, and more heavy reliance on it and DRS is proof to me that the industry is stagnating and not entirely because of Moore's Law. If games are rendering at 1080p I'd rather just have them output that on a 1080p display because it makes 4K kinda worthless, let alone 8K.
@@garydiamondguitaristAll the graphics you like are a series of hacks and you'd be hard pressed to name a game in the last decade that didn't render SOMETHING sub native res on a console.
I tried every shop in my town today for a ps5 disc drive. All 6 ran out Saturday. Its started.
You'd have better luck getting Oasis tickets
@@jimbob8992my wife mentioned that to me.
I said maybe…
Why not try online?
I ordered mine through PlayStation and it’s already shipped. Might want to try that route.
A month after release, they'll be going for peanuts on eBay.
on the topic of PS5 Pro vs PC cost deal, I'm sorry Richard but the point you are trying to make has no sense. If Sony, being a japanese company must "cut corners" on the fabrication of HW based on the value of their currency... What about Sony TVs? Why are they not skyrocketing prices on EU? Or Xperia Phones? Or Headsets/Headphones? Those have chips and electronic bits too... Heck, the non-Pro PS5 shares the same CPU chip, and probably most of their capacitors and resistors with the PS5 Pro...
Let's face it, Sony is a multinational business, and can easily manouver to bring materials to the factories. It's just that the PS5 Pro is a bit of a "let's try and make something to grab money from the less experienced players, or the hardcore fans".
All companies do it, Sony too, and there's nothing wrong with saying it clearly... there's no need to give them an alibi.
Can both be true?
So, based on Alex's Ratchet & Clank analysis:
To get to 60fps on PS5 Pro, we're getting the lower fidelity graphical setting with less crowd density and no DOF blur from the performance mode, but with PSSR to upscale that image to get a 4K resolution. You don't get the fidelity mode with all the details in 4K but with more fps with this Pro console. Hmmm.... maybe I was being naive?
Me too. They must let us chose! I want 1080p60 with Ultra Detail, thank you very much.
@@turrican4d599 performance will be the same because of the CPU, no reason not to go for higher resolutions
There will be different modes. There is a good chance the file they had was only Performance mode and not Fidelity/Quality
On base ps5 the performance RT mode is running drs from 1080p-1440p at 60fps with upscaling to 4k with insomniac software. Pro version seems to be that same version running at 1440p-1800p at 60fps and then pssr on top. If I’m reading that right, that’s doubling the ps5 performance in resolution.
what im curious about is what they will do with the pre-existing graphics mode. add more pretty stuff, better rt perhaps?
PS5 Pro £700 + Disc Drive £100 + 3 Years of PSN (For the length of console life maybe) £180 = £980
No this had made it a no brainer to just get a PC and put up with the wait for exclusives.
Surprised about the lack of comments on DF's part about the lack of a disk drive and stand. For me personally the lack of disk drive shows intent on Sony's part that they will make my physical library pointless going forward with PS6 or beyond. This makes me want to sell my collection and move to PC.
They talked about that pretty extensively in the previous 2 videos already. Focus here is analysis on the new footage from Sony
@@edmundfung And the fact John wasn't here for this one, it's no surprised the lack of disc drive talk wasn't up for discussion since John is hardcore physical games
You can buy a drive for the Pro
PC is already all digital bro
Good luck using a disc drive on pc
I will say living room PC is viable for a good home theater setup. Xbox Gamebar and Steam big picture have gotten a lot better over the years for controller use. The logitech K400 keyboard is also a great accessory for troubleshooting purposes. Despite it not being close to console, the PC living room dream is making strides for sure.
Yep. I get sick of people going on about how they want to sit back on a couch and relax with a controller and play games on their big screen tv and that is why they console game... I would think people working with Digital Foundry would know better than to make a dumb statement like that. I have been gaming on my PC like you would a console for years. Just like a console, my PC is hooked to my 65 inch TV and surround sound receiver through the hdmi and the case is a horizontal position case, sitting on a stand under that TV. The TV is also good quality 4K with HDR and Dolby Vision and all that. I not only sit back on my couch with a controller to game on my PC but I am typing this right now using that same setup with a wireless keyboard from my couch. I don't get how people in 2024 are not getting this is a thing...
@@Xorbius Nobody wants to use windows in the living room, I've already had my shit filled plate of it during work and school.
@@somethingthatisntcringe757 Funny, I know several people with the same set up as mine. Just because you don't want to do it doesn't mean you are everybody.
@Xorbius I love gaming on my pc, controller, and big screen tv....I wouldn't have any other way.
@@Xorbius I pretty sure the people who have a distaste for windows is a significantly larger demographic than the people with a niche pc setup.
I don’t know how Sony thinks the Pro is worth the price they ask for it. I came in to this episode to see the footage analysis expecting nothing and left even less impressed than I thought.
Xbox wants 600 for a 2 tb series x with all same specs as the 1 tb series x. The pro with all its features and 2 tb is 700. The cost is right where it should be.
@@steveybiggunzgaming8118 it's an extra $110 with the stand and disc drive....still not a sound purchase imo with no new software to show its true capabilities
A Radeon 7800 XT [60 CUs] is ~500USD, and a 2TB m.2 SSD is ~200USD. They're asking for Market Price, or a bit lower, for the hardware. In turn Microsoft is intending to charge 600USD for an All-Digital XBox Series X with a 2TB SSD.
In no place I was talking about Xbox. Lol
@@jebe4563 7800XT and 4000 series are about to be obsolete. The real comparisons when its actually released will be against 8700XT/5060ti etc.
I’m going to have to say for what the cost of the Pro console requires the gains don’t seem rather worth it especially when it’s only redeeming factor is using upscale ai technology.
It doesn’t seem it’s relying as much on the upgraded GPU which begs me to wonder if this PSSR technology could not have been easily implemented into the current PS5 as some update.
When compared to the regular PS5 version I have to say the differences are rather disappointing….not so much the visual quality but more so how small the difference are.
I can understand times are tough for Sony right now so they want to make a profit but I fail to see how this justifies Sony in requiring to making another console for it at an inflated price…
Can’t really justify spending $700USD ($959CAD) for this to be honest but interesting breakdown nonetheless. Thank you.
How method did you use to determine the internal res? My friend works with the pro, and said it has fixed internal res to 1080p (seen through debugger, so I'd assume - more reliable way).
I think it's important still to be critical of the price point of the Pro when you actually break down the numbers and to do so relative to the base PS5 rather than PC.
The cost difference of the PS5 Digital vs the PS5 Pro (Digital) comes down to a handful of things:
- Different APU: Likely the same size or slightly bigger, lower volume and on N5 vs N6). Likely ~50% more expensive at worst, something like $40 additional cost.
- 18Gbps G6 RAM vs 14Gbps G6 RAM Chips: Probs ~$20 additional cost.
- 2TB or SSD Chips vs 1TB: for Sony this is probs about $30.
- Minor changes on the VRMs/Mainboard, Wi-Fi7, PSU & Heatsink/Thermal Interface. Let's say $20.
- R&D Recoup of ~$30 over ~10mil units in 4yrs.
Overall you're probably looking at a system thay costs Sony ~ $140 more.
They could've forgone the SSD upgrade and relegated it to a wider release 2TB non-numbered 30th anniversary unit (which is then replaced by a standard 2TB option in a year). I also would've left off stuff like Wi-Fi7 and saved that for PS6.
They could've released it at $549 Digital and $649 Disc, addressed a much wider audience and still have made a respective extra ~$50 and ~$120 (the latter considering the actual bom of an optical disc unit).
Instead they went way overboard shooting for ~$200 raw profit ;and no doubt most Pro owners are gonna favour a disc drive which is another ~$50 profit on top.
It's reasonable to expect a markup, but this is way beyond that. This is a special blend or corporate nerves, the old Sony arrogance making a comeback and greed.
The short term money men are in charge and aiming for quick cost recoups and rapid profit to the detriment of long term effectiveness. See PSVR2 for an exaggerated example.
The renewed lineup should've been more like this:
$349 - PS5 Slim 1TB
$399 - PS5 Slim 30th Anniversary 2TB Special Edition (Available for 1 Year)
$499 - PS5 Slim 30th Anniversary 2TB Numbered Limited Edition + Stand & Special Extras (12,300 Units)
$549 - PS5 Pro 1TB
$599 - PS5 Pro 30th Anniversary 2TB Special Edition (Available for 1 Year)
$699 - PS5 Pro 30th Anniversary 2TB Numbered Limited Edition + Stand & Special Extras (12,300 Units)
$99 - Universal Disc Drive for PS5 Slim & PS5 Pro
There'd perhaps be a small haircut on the base digital unit but everything up from there would still be ranging from small to significant profit margins while getting more people into the ecosystem, retaining more people in the ecosystem, improving the brand image and giving a lower barrier of entry to a higher quality experience for a wider audience.
Let's not forget that while folks keep rolling out "processor chips aren't getting cheaper like they used to"; the cost reductions in the RAM chips, the SSD chips and other minor components will have knocked ~$100 off the bom in the last 4yrs. So they will have gone from straddling the break even line at launch to being in comfortably in profit. They even increased the price of the digital unit.
They are selling the base PS5 units at the same or higher costs not because it's some urgent necessity but because they can just about get away with it (they're tracking just shy of PS4 despite a 50% premium).
There's a reasonable middleground here where a markup can be had at an intermediate price point while still widening the audience somewhat and increasing customer satisfaction and brand respect which helps over the mid to long term; but unfortunately those short-term money men don't consider these tangible currencies and it's all about the quick bucks.
The only passionate people I see at PS now are Cerny and the core hardware development teams. Along with the software guys on the SDKs. They're all doing a great job, but the studios are all over the place as of late, the heads are throwing hundreds of millions away on stuff no one wants and the higher ups seem to have no real reverance for the brand and fail to realise the immense potential of PlayStation
There was a time when PlayStation and Sony in general were a prime example of a company that knew where it's bread was buttered; and an excellent eg. of a cut-throat corporation that was tempered just-so, and balanced out perfectly with execs that were genuinely invested in the company alongside the financial interest.
GT7 really needs 120fps in VR. Hopefully PS5P accomplishes it.
You can't go from 60 to 120 fps with just 45% performance boost. But hopefully it will get a 90hz update, that should solve the very annoying reprojection blur and ghosting.
19:07 a lot less npc's on screen with the pssr video. Could be helping with the image seeing as it doesn't have to render as much.
I noticed that too. They're basically cheating now to get better image quality and performance.
Wait so the PS5 Pro is basically just a $700 upscaler? wtf? In marketing they made it sound like you will be able to use the PS5 fidelity mode but at 60fps and it doesn’t even do that it seems more like performance mode is still being used but now with PSSR. This thing is laughably bad.
It depends on the developers for each game how they will "enhance" it. Some 30 fps games may not magically run at 60fps on the pro
It's already been shown that you can build a PC that is as powerful or close enough for around the same price as the Pro.
@@Spartan_83hilarious that u would comment this on a DF video.. Richard literally said in the IGN interview that a comparable PC would be a lot more expensive when u include everything.. but keep spouting nonsense
@@onlymoolz Actually not a lot more expensive you can build a 4070 PC with a better cpu for around $950-1050. The 4070 is about 20% faster than the PS5 Pro GPU and no online fees so it’s cheaper in two years.
@@Spartan_83no it hasn't
As for the comment on the RTX 4090, I think the 4090 is absolutely going to be relative longer than anyone's current CPU...for a few years. As noted by Ollie and inferenced in other episodes, CPU's are really the current bottlenecks. As long as the console's are significantly weaker than the PC, the 4090 will be amazing. Not only that, but the consoles use AMD GPUs which lag significantly behind DLSS and ray tracing. It is a great point to refernce back to the Crysis days of 2007 and even earlier where games couldn't be maxed for a few years and even when they could, it required multiple GPUs and very low resolution. The 4090 allows essentially 2K native resolution then upscaled to 4K with 60FPS on maxed everything. With a select few titles requiring frame generation then that 60 goes to about 100FPS. I have NO issues with graphics at max on a 4090 and an amd 5900x which is far from the best CPU. I need a CPU over a 5090 GPU.
Ollie sad the PS5 CPU is the bottleneck. Your 5900x is much stronger than the PS5 CPU.
@@daveh98 I dont even think next gen consoles are going to be on par with a 4090, let alone future RTX cards
@@jorgeacosta6698 I agree. I think Nvidia having such an advancement with DLSS and RTX will also allow the cards to age typically better.
@@currywurst2434 Yeah that's kinda my point because even I cannot get a locked 60 in Elden Ring due to CPU and that's why I think a lot of games are still going to be quite a disappointment. The limiting factor of the CPU is quite a problem I think.
For those who question about PSSR running on base PS5, it depends, one thing to point out is this RDNA2 has no BF16 data type silicon, which is the AI Accelerators. And If PSSR relies on this BF16 silicon to run, then the base PS5 cannot use PSSR. The BF16 silicon is what differentiates the Pro version from the base PS5. So if Sony says that PSSR cannot run on the base model then this is the main reason.
Tlou2 remastered already has a photo realistic fidelity mode - as did tlou pet 1 (ps5). The issue is that when enabled - even with my LGc2 w low lag and vrr etc- the game develops a horrendous motion blur (not related to a setting) and a significant lag- to the point of it being unplayable imo. If ps5 pro can replicate that fidelity or native 4K without the blur / lag and also keep a decent frame rate (48-60) then pro prob is worth it for people with large or premium TVs.
All they need to do for Alan Wake 2 really is clean up the crappy FSR2 with PSSR, stabilize the framerate, and maybe add some more RT, then again already beat this game and played most of these already, lol
Would like to see you guys run a Test on Gran Truism 7 PS5 Pro vs PS5 quality in PSVR2 for quality & if any improvements are made there, I spend quite a lot of time playing GT7 with the PSVR2 in competitive racing & it is very fun for immersion purposes but there are some notable LOD/pop in of details on the standard PS5
The PS5 Pro is €799 in Europe, exactly €50 too expensive compared to $699 and I think that's a disgrace on Sony's part. ($699 -> €625.54 * 1.19 VAT => €744.39 including VAT in Germany). Normalized that would be €749 for the digital PS5 Pro. What do you think about that, why do we Europeans have to pay €50 more? Someone has to explain that to me.
I remember people had exactly the same rethoric about “new realms of pricing”, when Apple started to sell iphones for 1000$. And now every flagship phone costs at least 1k.
So, brace yourselves, it’s only the beginning)
Much prefer this style of video to the default look
Sony is not focusing on what is should, making nice games and not focus entirely on realism. We had some great games that had nothing to do with realism in the last couple years like Astro Bot and Hi-Fi Rush. Both games are fairly simple, but very well made.
Nintendo is making fun games for the entire lifespan of the Switch, the same can't be said about Sony and the PS5.
I think the real issue is not that it's $700. Sure, high, but it doesn't have a disc drive. It's a console, that's predecessor was sold with a disc drive. A majority of users have a disc collection. That's just absolutely scummy.
You can buy a drive for it.
@@TheRamboss Yeah, but with tax and drive and stand its not a 700 dollar console anymore, which would be expensive enough and 200 bucks more than the PS5 ;) In europe its like 950 Euros with disc drive and stand.
Actually there was a study suggesting that about 90% of console game purchases are done digitally l, including me I stopped buying discs since 2019
You guys are so good at what you do, hats of to you all. Keep up the excellent work. Love hearing Alex and Oliver talk about the techniques in theese videos.
Sony's footage got bumped for contrast? The matched caps are quite a bit off in tone, it would be unfortunate if they're smashing the contrast ratio for cheap pops.
I really enjoy listening to Oliver speak. He's so smooth and articulate 😊
He could 100% do an ASMR channel on the side
@@Twiglet456 How do you handle the lisp? I can't hande it and have to skip him. ^^
Only one thing works on companys: vote with your wallet.
Same with strippers
But vote for what? Sony couldn't just magically produce a three times as powerful chip for the same price, that's simply not how it works. You basically have to work with whatever chips TSMC can provide at that time, and that depends on what manufacturing machinery ASML is able to provide.
@@NeovanGoth the options when voting with your wallet is buy or not buy. Alternatively you could buy someone else's product.
I personally won't buy a ps5pro the upgrade isn't worth it for me. But I also didn't own a PS4 pro. Look at the PS3 if the product doesn't sell Sony will look for different options. The people are acting as if they are being forced to buy the console.
@@scruffy3121 Ok got it. DF already assumed that the PS5 Pro will have a similar target audience than the PS4 Pro, so you'd fit into that assumption.
I am waiting for ps6, not worth the money
That's 4 years away
@@Cormano980 4 years are not much really. For a kid? Yes. For someone who can buy a PS5pro? Nah, time is vanishing like crazy
Here, I've assembled a comparison in like for like scenes with the PS5 vs PS5 PRO:
PS5:😕 PS5 Pro:🙁
PS5:😌 PS5 Pro:😔
PS5:👦 PS5 Pro:🧑
The differences are striking.
Yeesh, with a 2ms cost for PSSR, that means the 45% GPU upgrade actually decreases to 27%
This means only a maximum of 12.6% improvement in base resolution (1.126x width * 1.126x height = 1.267x) if you use PSSR.
That is nothing.
Yes, PSSR resolves things nicer than FSR, but it doesn't have any extra detail than FSR. It's just a cleaner resolve. Base PS5 already has FSR, so you're not increasing detail by much here. Is it nice to have a cleaner resolve? Of course. Is the minimal upgrade in resolution AT MOST and a nicer resolve really worth the price of the console? Absolutely not.
Absolutely disagree. If game on pro at 60 fps looks similar or better than 30 on ps5 its huge upgrade.
@@борисрябушкин-з9н It won't look similar unless the 30fps mode has no temporal upscaling. That's why Sony is focusing on titles like TLOU2 which didn't have any temporal upscaling before.
Most games which already have temporal upscaling will have exactly the same level of detail at 60fps, just with a cleaner resolve, so less artifacts, but the same level of detail.
Love the politeness of Rich dunking on other inferior test outlets -- Love y'all DF keep it up
Rich the guy who stated in a previous video they will stop counting pixels and judge on final image quality. John also called pixel counting silly. Yet they still rush out a video based on nothing but a quick trailer and count pixels to get hits...
@@PixelBaller whoa ok-- that's a lot of hate for the only outlet that can do this style after Anandtech is gone
@@PixelBalleryup
@@elias41790it's not hate if it's true
@@PixelBaller I've never heard them describe pixel counting as "silly". If they did then that would ironically be silly on them because it's part of their core analysis of games. People want to know the resolution and the only way to do that is to count pixels.
4:57 great Levi's
Please dear god bring GT7 to Steam i bet you Sony
Had to move away from my desk for a moment and I got back to Alex's "...for me, looking at the stool..."
In Norway, the PS5 Slim Digital costs less than half of what the PS5 Pro costs currently. PS5 Slim Digital is 4790,- NOK and PS5 Pro is 10190,- NOK. Nobody is going to spend over double the amount of money on a PS5 Pro than the regular PS5 Slim Digital (both come without a disc drive and stand). It's ridiculous. Basically the PS5 Pro almost costs the same as a RTX 4080 Super OC edition.
Thank you for your analysis, guys. 🙂
Its quite ignorant to think AMD isnt doing AI upascaling research.
its literally true tho lmao
They are but they got nothing to show yet
An important distinction between dlss and pssr is that dlss runs on the tensor cores, not the main shaders.
This means when dlss is running, it's not taking shaders away from Raster performance, and they are working in parallel with the raster shaders, masking the vast majority of frame time latency.
Pssr seems to be sectioning off a portion of the ps5 pros 60 cu's to be used for compute operations like pssr.
This seems to be a good reason why Sony is claiming only a 45% render power increase over the ps5 (about 15 tflops 45% more rendering power than ps5), when 60 cu's at 2.35 ghz is more like a 75% render power increase over ps5 (about 18 tflops). It appears they are sectioning off 3 tflops worth of cu's for compute like pssr. (When used for an upscaling solution like this, it will not still be 3 tflops, it will be used with wmma which would accelerate by a factor of 8, or 512 flops/ops per cu per clock)
So something like 50 cu's for raster (15 Tflops, 45% more render power than ps5), and 10 cu's for compute.
These 10 cu's will be for running wmma, possibly rdna4 swmmac (2x sparsity boost.)
So we have the following possibilities:
Rdna3 wmma: 512 X 10 cu's X 2.35 ghz = 12 Tflops fp16, or int8, or 24 Tflops int4 (int4 gets 1024 ops per cu per clock)
Rdna4 swmmac: 512 X 10 cu's X 2(sparsity) x2.35 ghz = 24 Tflops fp16 or TOPS int8, or 48 Tops Int4. This seems to be what is powering pssr if I had to guess.
If instead of sectioning off 10 cu's for ml compute, we didn't do any raster (graphics rendering) at all and just used every cu for compute we would get:
60x512x2.35 = 72 Tflops fp16 (2.18 ghz = 67 tflops) or 72 Tops int 8, or 144 Tops int 4.
If for some reason we ran fp16 wmma only at 2.18 ghz, and only int4 had sparsity and was ran at 2.35 ghz, we would get 67 Tflops fp16, and 288 Tops int4, roughly matching the leaked ps5pro documentation.
As per MiLD they have an NPU in PS5 Pro rated at 300 TOPS for PSSR. Not utilizing CUs for PSSR.
@Shehryar89 I am aware of what mlid tried to interpret, but pretty much every single other source has contradicted mlid on this, Including the leaked documentation which specifically said the 300 Tops was "Machine learning capabilities of the ***GPU***".
Also as should be very very evident, pssr simply doesn't have the performance of an image reconstructor with access to upwards of 300 Tops, which typically perform the job around 0.0X something ms up to faster than can be polled, not 2 ms.
We don't know if RDNA4 uses WMMA on the CUs or is more like CDNA2 with Matrix cores.
Of course, it could just be an NPU using XDNA2.
Great points. FWIW, only one console this gen will have Nvidia's superior DLSS. 🫰
@@Shehryar89that’s what I thought too.
If you “jump into the pc space” you also have to spend $600 for a Dell 4K monitor, for example. Which the monitor alone puts you at the price for a 2TB Xbox series or PS5 Pro.
GPU at $700 midrange
Look at steam hardware survey bro, no one really games at 4k on PC. You can get a great high refresh rate 1440p monitor for a couple hundred bucks now
1:40:35 THANK YOU!!!
I wonder, looking at the internal resolutions of such Alan Wake 2, if SONY has not come up with a way that in the case of FSR 2, the developers do not even have to update the game, and the console itself can replace FSR on PSSR. And with this, for example, any game that uses FSR 2.0+ will have the AMD solution overwritten by PSSR on the PS5 Pro.
we already know the answer
no, it will be up to the developers to go back to those titles and great majority probably wont
fsr2 is honestly one of the ugliest image qualities I've seen this gen, it turns everything into a muddy blur artifacty mess when anything is in motion
9:35
"The economics don't work"
Not sure I buy that. I guess it's hard to say for sure but I think the PS5 pro could be less than $699 and SIE would be fine/profitable.
It not being economically viable would be an argument if sony wasn't pumping people for all they're worth with 70 dollar digital games and tiers of subscription services on top of the hardware price. like PCs are expensive but at least you can get the games extremely cheaply
@@cloudycolacorpYou must be too young to remember $60 N64 games. That's about $120 today adjusted for inflation.
@@aerithgrowsflowers That's why I specified Digital there. Cartridge games were expensive because that's the end retail price of a whole extra circuit board sold in a physical shop who are also taking a cut. Digital squeezes a lot of extra profit cutting out all of that plus the used market too. Gonna bring up the Randnet subscription too whilst you're at it? lol
A 2tb series x cost 600$ , a ps5 pro cost 700$ with much better hardware
A series x cost 500$ with 1tb hdd, an expansion card cost 130$ currently on amazon bringing the total cost to 630$
Series x does not have ai upscaling or improved ray tracing performance. So in reality a ps5 pro cost 70$ more than a series x
1tb hard drive is not enough space for modern games so you will have to get a expansion card .
@@cloudycolacorp You're complaining about expensive games that are much cheaper than they were 30 years ago for some perspective. Regardless of why, you're not entitled to better deals. You buy it or you don't. If a seller wants to make their games more enticing to you, they'll lower the price. All you did was explain why games cost less while complaining they are still too expensive. It costs what it costs and you buy it or you don't.
The TLoU2 side by side clearly shows how PSSR Quality can improve image quality over native 4K on the left so i think it is interesting in that sense, it shows the true potential of it and thats why im dissapointed in the implementation shown in the other games, specially stuff like Alan Wake 2 when they are using the same base resolutions as the base PS5.
What people also doesn’t realize is that pssr can be updated in the future just like with DLSS via the internet
I'm more convinced after watching this video the Pro is definitely not worth the price. Thank you DF
People need to understand that majority of gamers, which are now in their 20s all the way to 50s, are not hardcore gamers. They enjoy multiplayer games (only a select few) that they play with their friends, or they enjoy single player games. Most of all, they prefer plug and play. While also not paying too much for the whole experience. Why? No time. We just don't have time to constantly look at game seasonal sales, or stay up to date on all Computer Tech. Heck, we barely find enough time to game and stay a "Gamer" at heart.
Yes, as such a gamer I do think PS5 Pro is expensive, because this is the first console which is priced so high. And in this economy? Damn. But what I want from my PS5 experience is more 60 fps and more 'crisper' image (looking at you FF7 Rebirth).
My point is, I am tired of people saying 'build a PC and stay happy'. I will show why that idea sucks bad. -
1. Today games are heavily optimised for consoles. To run the same games, with same settings on PC require much better hardware (that is what I gathered over the years). Meaning, much more investment compared to 700$ PS5 Pro.
2. To build a PC, one needs knowledge of it. Because if one doesn't possess such knowledge, it is very possible to make decisions which are bad in the long run (for the consumer) or to which people can say "oh no what did you do? you should have bought this, this is more bang for the buck". All this considering the fact that some other guy/company will assemble your PC and ship it to you (they also take a separate charge to do so. They should right? Not sure).
Consoles are good for what they are, they sit between casual (mobile gaming) and hardcore (PC gaming), I would say more towards hardcore. As I said earlier, I don't like that price. But I will buy the console next year. I know some stuff about graphics (I am here, aren't I?), that is why. I know many people that own a PS5, just play best games they hear about from their PS Plus library and enjoy it without thinking much about DRS or ray tracing or bla bla bla
Even though I already own a gaming PC, I plan on picking up the Pro. People act like they're mutually exclusive to own. It's silly. I realize not everyone can afford both, and I'm grateful that I can, but they offer different things. If I only have an hour to play after work, I just want to plop on the couch and play console.
go focus on your family/career, games are for teenagers
@@tshepherd8145 "If I only have an hour to play after work, I just want to plop on the couch and play console." Yup. Exactly how I feel!
If they're not hardcore gamers, then there's no reason to spend any money.
No one I know still on PS4 is compelled by this. The people I know on PS5 who wanted higher fidelity are going for gaming PCs. I don't know who this is for.
Exactly. I guess it's for PC haters/PS fanboys who have enough money. And nothing wrong with it. It's just bad value.
For gaming enthusiasts. I have a PS5 and 4090 and I'm getting this.
@@kiisseli1337 Its much more better valye than pc without doubt.
Pc is trash platform. Real console gamers who wants higher fidelity will buy ps5 pro .
If you want a disc drive so you can play the ps4/5 games you already own it's gonna be more expensive. If you want multiplayer for anything but Fortnite and a couple other titles, it's gonna be more expensive.
Yes, the console hardware is subsidized. A big part of that is gonna be your ps+ subscription. If you bought a ps5 digital at launch for $400 and you've had basic ps+ since, you'll have spent as much on the subscription as the console itself come this November.
We're not getting more with the software. It's basically the same as Steam, but on PS you have the privilege of paying extra for things PC gamers get for free, like multiplayer and cloud saves.
I cannot be the only person who is annoyed that DF talks about the internal resolution of PSSR but refers to DLSS by the output resolution. For example the internal resolution of a 4k output resolution using DLSS Quality mode is gernerally 1440p or higher, and a 1440p output resolution using DLSS is generally 720p or higher. Its almost like a deliberate attempt to confuse people when referring to the two hardware AI upscaling models. I hope for future PS5 pro videos they either stick with all internal resolutions or all output resolutions when referring to comparisons between PS5 pro and PC. As it stands now....comparing internal resolution (which the user doesn't see) .....say 864p to the output resolution....which is 1440p on PC and console is confusing. This is especially true because it tends to give the impression that the PC version is higher resolution than it actually is internally and undermines the fact that like PSSR, DLSS is a Hardware AI upscaling solution.
Nope, I think its funny before DLSS came around people would bash consoles saying "Its not real 4k" , but then they pretend their little 4070 is "running 4k ultra!" with dlss
Yupp - they are just pleasing the PC fanboys.
Consoles runs games 720p -scaled by FSR to 1440p. And it is just 720p... (Despite it is FSR2.0 1440p Performance)
PC runs impressive 1440p DLSS performance - which is also scaled from 720p
Digital Foundry is a joke sometimes. On that test you can see that PSSR are even better than DLSS but nobody says that.
@@lechistanskiswit320 As with anyone, they're human and they're fallible. Bias affects everyone to a certain degree. No outlet will ever be 100% objective. A simple fact.
@@notsyzagts7967
The problem isn't that they have a bias... the problem is presenting that bias as unbiased objective information. In this circumstance it borders on a lie of omission....they aren't telling you something that is not true, they just aren't telling the whole truth for one platform vs the other which makes any comparison not worth discussing because that discussion stems from bias.
But to be fair to DF, it is probably a moot point though as DLSS quality on a 4070 or higher will almost certainly deliver a better quality 4K image (upscaled from 1440p), at higher framerates than the PS5 Pro's 60fps target. That is implied in DF's analysis - and DLSS only gets better with other techniques like frame generation, ray reconstruction etc.
I would like (Rich) and Digital Foundry to purchase the first PC that has the same SOC which is inside the PS5 Pro: OneXPlayer OneXGPU 2, so that when the PS5 Pro launches Digital Foundry can do a head to head comparison with both devices
I hope they do go the route of offering multiple tiers with PS6. I think base PS6 Digital for $550, and a PS6 Pro for $800 at launch would be great. Then a mid gen refresh for each, with prices rising to $600 for PS6 Slim (maintaining OG specs), and $1,000 for PS6 Pro Slim (pushing a mid gen upgrade in performance and technology). All model will sell digitally, with an optional disc drive similar to current models of PS5.