@@stankshop I would bet the majority of people who play warhammer thier only human interaction is at the gameshop where they play. The community is full of losers and weirdos.
Solo and COOP is incredibly important in the current state of boardgames. GW has probably started paying attention to what happens elsewhere in the nerdosphere. I bet you they are trying to rope in some boardgamers with this
Holy crow, found the GW Shrimp. 🙄 Indies have been pushing Solo and Coop for years. Blackstones version of it was pretty janky. Add to that the fact that their "rules" have been built to push new models, and even push old ones into "Legends." Utter GW garbage man. I hated Kill Team MK1's Flesh Wound rules but MK2 and if this is MK3, not impressed.
By the sound of it I believe GW is going in exactly the right direction with this new edition of Kill Team, based primarily on the fact that they are treating it as it's own game. I understand what you want is 40k skirmish like what the "original" KT was but I feel that leads to exactly the sort of half baked system we have with Combat Patrol. 40k is made to be 40k and making a smaller version of that just takes away a lot of the fun of the system. With the current and future version of KT they are making a dedicated skirmish game wholly independent from the 40k game, and the gameplay is better for it. There's some of what you said I can certainly agree with, cover rules or more specifically obscuring rules were a bit clunky and could use some tuning but the engage/conceal component of the game is critical to the enjoyment of the experience and I'm glad to see based on the tokens at least it appears to be returning. Ultimately I think a lot of fans out there need to separate KT from 40k and enjoy it for what it really is Kill Team not 40k Skirmish.
Building your own team was really the ONLY good thing about KT 2018... I played guard and lost almost EVERY one of the 30-something matches I played because the rules were 40k but for single models and had nothing to do with making any non-space marine teams viable. KT21 was great for balance with teams and fun missions but lost all the customization and appeal but damn it played fun and tense and suddenly my poor guardsmen had some thrilling and successful missions. I dunno. The only real way to have BOTH systems is to do what One Page Rules does and itemize all the gear and abilities etc... and GW does not want to do that for obvious reasons.
Except that the whole point behind Kill Team was to make these cool narrative groups and not just a normal squad from 40k. That is what separated Kill Team from 40k. Doing what they keep doing just makes this a combat patrol.
You have a cookie for saying that sooooo well, the game has it's own identity and payer base now, they keep all the good stuff and throw away the points that were the most critiscized by players and non-players (the ones who didn't catch up with more than 1 or 2 tests)
@@charlesforward9036 Weirdly I've had the opposite result. My guard and CSM kill teams in 2018 felt great, but for KT 21 if you're using a T3 army vs marines the game is decided on the marine players loadout. You're SOL either way. If they rock up with nothing but bolters they're going to just melt your team in one turn of fire and then you're done. Sure KT18 probably could have used a cap for how many plasma guns you're allowed per team, but other than that it felt great. For a newbie it helped keep the game simple. KT21 somehow avoids teaching you 40k's rules, while also being a bloated poorly written mess that takes far too long to play because of their own mess of baggage they added instead of keeping it to a tight streamlined system.
I’m going to reiterate my critique of KT 2018 - it was a game that favoured players with extensive bits boxes. Players that could kit out a whole team with plasma guns were at a substantial advantage compared to new players who were just building models from one or two boxes. Modern Kill Team is clearly designed as a gateway game - you buy one box, you build a team, and you’re ready to play against any other team in the game. As a hobby challenge, perhaps it’s less fulfilling, but ad a gateway into the hobby, it seems vastly improved.
Agreed, KT2018 wasn't bad for some "your guys" flavor BUT good grief so much came down to min/max mathing your way with very specific types of gear loadouts for your guys, many of which couldn't be acquired in a normal way. Hell forget sticking every Guardsman with the spammy plasma sprues, you literally only had 1 truly legal non kitbashed option for Chaos Cultist Champion unit(the dude with the shotgun and sword) and it only existed(at least when KT2018 was new) via a long out of print CSM vs SM box set, a rarer mini in general. I understand people feeling like list building element is a good practice for other stuff, but sometimes people don't wanna be so bothered with mini 40k for something that's supposed to go a bit quicker.
Yeah the new one is definitely a better "gateway drug" but it really doesn't help players take the leap into 40k proper anymore. And it lacks the depth you'd need to integrate it as cleanly with a narrative, while having it's own massive pile of bloat and baggage that it really didn't need. They seem to want to make a nice tight intro game but can't actually bring themselves to stick to a nice tight game. And it's still a gearcheck for half of your fights.
KT21 is the reason I hobby at all these days. My concern was that all the KT21 teams would become invalid in KT24, but now knowing that “almost every” (whatever that actually means) of the KT21 teams will get updated rules for KT24 is what will keep me hobbying and playing. I understand that the list building aspect of a game is a deal breaker for Uncle Adam, but personally KT21 is a really fun game, and the fun is more important to me than mathhammering. Also the ability to just try so many different KTs since they are mostly one box pick ups, so if you don’t like how one plays, try a different one. Lastly, I think the compendium made sense for KT21, as there were only 2 official KTs upon release, so it gave a way to easily make other KTs. But now that 24ish boxed KTs for KT21, you don’t really need a compendium, as there could be a lot of easy 1 box pick up teams right from the start.
Yeah, I used to think list building is fun until I've played KT21 :D. With little hobby time nowadays I really appreciate that I need only one or two boxes to be able to play most of the teams. That puts a clear limit on both financial engagement for a particular team and time engagement because I know precisely how much models I need to paint to be able to field the team in any allowed combination. On top of that KT21 is just a really good game. It's tight, it's fun, it's very tactical and well balanced. I'm really happy KT24 is shaping to be just a slight upgrade to the existing version.
I played the previous edition and is was reduces to plasma spam, the bespoke teams added specialists and the ability to have a KT without having to buy multiple sets to have all the available models
Which ones are gone has been clarified. Compendium is gone. All bespoke teams stays, maybe with the exception of Intercessors and Justian which are edge cases not covered by the wording in the article.
@@jonasbarkaI thought they may get rid of the Striking Scorpion team since I have no problem admiring that they really don’t follow the kill team specialist design
Getting rid of the compendium teams feels like something that was always part of the plan. They only existed so the game wasn't just Orks Vs Guard. Also GW have been matching rules to the contents of boxes for a while now. It's a little worse for existing players who already have two to for squads they can pick and mix from. For new players or players wanting to try a different faction just buying one box is so much better. I think the compendium style mixed kill teams may come back in some (limited) way by GW packing an Intercessor sprue with a Phobos sprue, for example.
No, it only existed to sell more books. They double the cost of the books then split it in half. The 2018 Kill Team rule book included the compendium in the rule book.
@TallTaleGael theyve already confirmed that the annual teams like Harliqunns are getting rules for kill team, its just those ones from the origina compendium that is getting the boot, and the only ones not replace yet really are talons of emporer and nids
GW has had some fantastically balanced and playable rules but dumped them in favor of selling books. I am so sick of it and no longer buy into it. Hell, I don't even buy into their pricing model anymore, as it is absolutely ridiculous. I can buy a Tamiya infantry squad for 6 to 10 USD and tanks for ~30 USD, so why the hell are we paying 45 USD for a squad and 150+ USD for vehicles? It is utterly moronic and I refuse to pay it.
I'll honestly never buy one of thier rules books. GW just keeps trying to price gouge me but I guess they dont understand that I dont give a fuck what they say about rules and I dont give a shit about thier updates/books.
As a club and tournament organizer spanning the current edition, I am extremely relieved that the ruleset is not undergoing a drastic change. I’ll agree that the loss of the Compendium is a disappointment, as it was great for teaching games, but in our experience, when a new player latched onto the gameplay, they got excited by the concept of bespoke teams and would often have one bought and built by our next weekly meet up. As for the use of non-KT 40k models, it looks like they’ll be excellent “NPOs” for the solo and co-op missions, as shown on WarCom this morning.
KT18 was mini 40K. The buy in for someone wanting to play for example space marines was nuts. Yes you could buy one box and off you go, but then the power struggle started and before you know it you had bought 6 boxes to various marines to get the team,roaster you wanted to be able to compete with the other people that had done the same. Now its 1 box and your done, maybe a second box if your want every option, but for the most part its one box. The new kill team is a low invertment game, two teams, a core rulebook, tokens and a surface to play on and your set. No power creep because you opponent bought 3 more faction boxes and now bring a combo of 5 over power units. Its more balanced. Oh and finally the charge rule in KT18 was hot garbage. I can move 6" but if I charge i could move less as charge was part of the movement not an additional move. In one game i had a rust stalker that failed a 5 inch move 4 times but could walk 8" normally. Dont miss the power creep or the rule set of the open design of KT18.
Not to mention the kt18 break test mechanic. If you ran a horde team like orks you would only get to play half the game before your orks broke and ran. Not fun
Or, if you already had Space Marines, you could build a Kill Team without buying anything. That’s the real issue for Games Workshop here. Thanks for watching!
@@tabletopminionsthat's a pretty gutless response. Every Single Company In Existence Want's people to buy more of their products. Kt18 only benefited people who already had an army or two. For anyone who didn't what was the cost to get started? Yeah gw is rather shit with milking it's customers, but currently it's cheaper and easier to get people into the hobby with kt21 and will be for kt24. Plus how many people have bought kill team boxes to use in their standard armies? Probably a metric shit-ton. And while the rules could be *written* better, they're still not that complex and are far more mentally stimulating than anything gw has put out in decades. Lost all respect. This has been the the saddest, saltiest whinge I've seen from a hobby channel in a while. Also fyi, they're still keeping the "hide and seek" mechanics, one of the smartest additions to a gw game ever. The order tokens are a pretty clear indication that stealth will be in.
@@fatal-flaw10 That is not entirely true. What companies actually want is to maximise their revenue. Ideally by not doing, producing or selling anything. Ideally they want money for nothing. The question is how hard do they push this. Most companies are pretty happy with delivering a product or service with some value for the customer while making a decent and sustainable profit. This is where GW differs and why their business practices are quite douchey. There is a reason why they are fequently critisied for their bad value for money and exploitive methods. The fact that they now will not provide rules for Kill Team specific kits is one of them. There is no reasons to discontinue a Kill Team. It would cost them basically nothing to provide updated rules. But they decided to drop some, which ones they do not specify, for no reason other than trying to force people who allready have Kill Teams to buy new ones. Few other companies in the tabletop and wargaming business behave like this. Nobody has a problem with GW or other companies making money. A lot of people have a problem with extortionate prices as well as manipulative and deceptive communication just to push profit margines and return on investment to obscene levels.
@@schnuersi wow, there's a lot to unpack here. 1. No, most companies aren't. Don't know if you've checked lately but prices for EVERYTHING is going up, and most of that is gouging. I will include GW in that though. 2. Uhhhh..... They've actually made it *crystal clear* that they will be releasing all the rules for existing AND future bespoke kill teams for free online. They are canning the *Compendium* teams, which has already drawn ire, including mine as a few of them were good, but they have actually specified compendium teams *specifically*. The only grey area is the Whit Dwarf teams. So you either haven't actually read the news/paid attention, or..... well... 3. Yeah I have a problem with extortionate prices too. And I'll be damned if I pay full price for anything from GW, if I have to at all (hooray for internet piracy with rulebooks). This is also why I support kill team and necromunda over everything else from GW. It's so much cheaper and anyone can find the rules online for free. In a lot of places around the world other games just don't draw in players and we're stuck with the big boys or nothing. At least this game is good, and it's damn good. I'm *really* pushing myself to be polite here, but if you want to make a point make sure you're fully loaded and concrete in your facts.
I agree that it's a bit lame that we don't get to build custom whacky teams, but it's been kinda clear for a few years now that this isn't the direction GW wants to go. Again, bit lame, but i've made my peace with it, there are other games. As far as Kill Team is concerned, I'm kinda hyped about this new edition. Despite it's shortcomings in terms of customization and such, KT2021 was a real fun game, and the Into the Dark terrain made it imo even better. I also like that for this edition - although i haven't seen them really talk about that - there seem to be fewer "special" operatives and more "regular" ones. Like, in the two new teams, each seems to have 4 operatives that are just basic dudes, and idk i kinda like that, but i've always liked having more vanilla troops in my wargames anyway so maybe it's just me.
Remember folks, you can do whatever you want especially if you're casual, you can STILL use your custom Kill Team, no one is going to kick your door down and flashbang your gaming room just because you mix and match your a custom rule set.. You can even make custom cards etc.. If you love Kill Team, make it your own.. They can't stop you.
Guy who disliked current edition doesn't like the next one so far. Color me shocked lol. I like that they're trimming the fat a bit, and looking forward to the co-op play. All the bespoke teams are being updated from what I read though. I think you're mistaken about it not being all. Only the compendium, which was always a bandaid solution and GW were not subtle about it, so I'm not surprised. - Edit: I may be wrong here, there may be some bespoke teams being affected too. We'll just have to wait an see. - End edit. As for list building, KT2018 was just full of plasmas an almost nothing else. People were not all that unique with list building either. And yes, numbers better then weird shapes. I may not agree with ya on KT, but I respect ya.
@@colinmack8655 the little ** it has on that statement takes you to the bottom bit about compendiums not being supported. I assumed that's what it was referring to. Guess we'll just have to wait and see.
I think boarding patrol is taking the spot kill team used to have. Little 500 point games that use models from big 40k in a smaller scale, so you can just grab what you have sitting in your collection and jam some games. I love bespoke teams, personally, and never played much compendium, but I'm still sad to see it go
I have a suspicion that the Almost Every Bespoke Kill Team clause is in reference to the Ashes of Faith Boxed Set, as only the Inquisition Acolytes could be considered a Bespoke Kill Team, but the rest of that release was a hodgepodge of previously released models.
Personally as a person with limited hobby time (if any) not having to worry about all the potential cheese lists and options and just being able to field the models as per its compendium list has always been a MASSIVE plus for me. Also easier to balance. Happy the compendium are going online (obsolete books good bye) and glad they are doing away with the silly symbols for measurements.
Definitely not a first for GW to have solo or coop play. Blackstone fortress had it and more recently, the tabletop version of Darktide had it too. For anyone paying attention, Darktide was marketed to newer players as an intro game - if you like it, why not get Kill Team next! - so I feel like it's not surprise that GW are including solo/co-op in the new edition of Kill Team. I'm sure we'll see it in the next iteration of Warcry too.
As a hobbist mostly i really love the new kill team, i liked the old one, and there was some charm in being able to build lists, but the new teams have so much more character:) and at least for me the game plays much smoother, really excited for the small tweaks and fixes to the new version😁 solo play is going to be really great, one of the few good things about covid, people realised solo play is nice to add to your game:)
@@auradmg totally agree:) its so good for playing as well, im a alittle nuts so i have most teams painted, and i tried hosting a tournament for some friends using my models, but it was a nightmare in 2018, but with 2021 it was amazing. Just gave each person a team and we played:) Feel like uncle atom has gotten so upset over kill team not being what he liked in 2018 that everything now is negative, and from a person thats normally always so positive:) the killteam scene is booming as well😁👍
I guess its cool I can use my Tyranids, Stealth Suits, and Krootox as NPO's, but it will be harder to get new 40k players into killteam without the pitch "just bring some of your battleline troops and your all set". The simplified ruleset was a bummer for competition, but they were great for light games. On the flip side putting the killteams online for free is a great business move IMO and I'm sure you could Port 40k models over to a few of them
The compendium teams are actually still 95% compatible with the rules, so if you're a casual player (the compendium barring one or two teams haven't been viable for at least a year) you can still slot them in _extremely_ easily. It doesn't come as a surprise to anylne who actually plays the game that compendium is being officially retired, and it opens up the opportunity for those factions to get proper bespoke teams :) (Also kill teams aren't live animals and you can still use the models lmao)
@@collegeoffoliage6776 If it were that easy to convert compendium into KT24 then GW should have done it themselves. And again, you're saying "just buy a new one, lol" like it's and actual solution. Ignoring the fact that I don't want to use GW's team of anime protagonists, you're expecting me to sit out until GW eventually decides to release a Tyranid team. Great solution, mate! I guess I'll be over here waiting then.
@@garlicxlr That's actually nonsense, it's incredibly easy to convert to kill team 2024, however many off the compendium kill teams are extremely underpowered, so GW would have to do a complete re-design if they wanted to bring them back in line. If you just want to play compendium vs. compendium with the new rules however, converting is almost effortless.
solo & coop mode might be the single reason for me to finally think about purchasing a GW product. Coming from Board games & mini painting for them, I always missed out on GW and tabletop skirmish or army battle gaming.
I find kill team to be the best introduction to the 40k scene. You'll have more people to play with and I find the different terrain and rules associated with them as fun.
I suppose you also want to increased player base of GW, right? Because these days there are plenty of skirmish solo/coop indie games :) Though they are less known that whatever GW does, of course.
Even as a PvP game Kill Team is by far the best entry into the 40k universe. Contrary to what this video claims, the goal with the newer editions are not to force 40k players to buy more, but to make it easier for new players to begin (they already got the 40k players hooked). One box of minis is a playable team and many don't need more to be completive in tournaments.
To be fair, you also can use your existing models as substitutes for bespoke teams John from canyourollacrit recently played his regular necron models (some with slight modifications) as a gellerpox infected bespoke team and won an official tournament. So if you are down for some hobbytime you can use your kits&bits. Also most specialists are either gunners (plasma, melta etc) and some kind of sniper, medic or comms-person - sometimes someone with a big melee weapon. If you have an 40k army, you can easily bring those models together as a count-as-team and no one will bat an eye.
Not if the faction you want to play doesn't even have a bespoke team yet which is the main problem with me. I have a death guard, grey knight and custodes team because I think they look cool. Now I won't even be able to play the new edition even if I want to with them. I have a few bespoke so it's not an issue, but my problem with move away from compendium is that it should only be done once they have all factions represented as bespoke teams and not before
@@kjs5932 use Death Guard as either Legionary or Nemesis claw (Legionary should be closer mechanically but Nemesis claw has more similar weapons) It is a harder pass, but I'd say you could use grey knights as intercession, just write down what weapon is what version of intercessor.
@@kjs5932You already should have been running the deathguard models as nurgle aligned legionary. Angels of death could proably be used to run the other two.
I think this edition is a step in the right direction. I enjoyed Kill Team 2021 but it had some convoluted rules. I don’t mind the bespoke teams as it generally lead to more balanced games (at least in my playgroup).
I'm very happy with the changes previewed so far. The new edition preserves most of the good things about the core game, and the changes seems to mostly to improve on that. On the list building issue: There are already plenty skirmish games that support flexible list building. I'm happy Kill Team instead tries to fill the 'niche' of a more tightly balanced/designed, competitive, less chaotic, and very strategic and tactical skirmish game. I think of it as chess with dice - and complexity.
Honestly list building to me isn't a meaningful expression to me i get that it is to a lot of folks but to me it lead to only selecting from a small subset of things because they are the only things efficient enough to bother spending points on anything else becomes wasting points effectively. The way the kill team operative selection is way more interesting to me because i get to select things after i know my opponent's faction and get to adapt to them on the fly in a way ie. swap a melta for a GL if my opponent is playing a horde team. Or bring the guy that shuts down forward deploys againt teams that can do that. To me those minute to minute decisions are what keeps me coming back time and time again to kill team. List building works great for other games but it also is more aprochable to the average person when they can buy one to two boxes and thays all the investment they need to make as opposed to getting 3-4 boxes so they can list build
I understand the points raised and I'll be honest I let the last edtiion of Kill Team pass me by. I have since warmed to the idea of bespoke teams, much like Bloodbowl, you buy a box and you have everything you need. I'd imagine if your model collection is big enough you can replicate a bespoke team with your own models. I think the straw that broke the camels back to get to try the new edition is the new starter set and hopefully its priced to make it a painless entry point.
As much as I’ll miss my White Dwarf Harlequin team, there are aspects of this that I am a fan of. Having coop and solo play options are things I’m very excited about. Also having static lists feels like an easier entry point for me to introduce people to the game. I speak only for myself and the reasons to not like the changes are valid and make sense. Also I have 3 boxes kill teams so I am pretty comfortable from that standpoint
I agree with most of your criticisms but I'm still a big fan of the new kill team. I've been playing since the 2018 edition and the 2021 edition was a big improvement for me. On the topic of list building: this game has list building! For most teams, you build a list every time you play. Those decisions could be more interesting and how many you have to make varies greatly from team to team, but list building is there. One thing I think they could do to impress theorycrafty/listbuildy type players is to make that part more fleshed out and nuanced. Give us a good reason to select basic warriors instead of bespoke specialists, for example, maybe with more selections for load out (this would reduce the number of specialists on the table and speed the game up, too). But having a full roster in just two boxes is fantastic compared to the previous edition.
As an avid Kill Team player, I can't be more excited. Every modifications announced prove that their listening their regular player base. I'm sorry for 40k players who want to use their minis though. But Kill Teams is better by being its own thing.
The compendium teams were a crutch GW used to add additional options when KT2 launched when they didn’t have additional bespoke teams. They weren’t good, and didn’t see much competitive play. I am sad we are both loosing Hive Fleet as well as Talons of the Emperor, but tbh it was for the best, let the old make way for the new. I’m sure they will be releasing rules in white dwarf or for bespoke rules of those factions sometime in the future. With them announcing all current and future team rules being free online now, I’m confident you can use something in place of another team. (heck, I have a friend who kitbashed some Tau into Nurgle infected Tau and ran them as a gellerpox team, do whatever you think is cool!) I’m actually really excited for this new edition! GW so far hasn’t dropped the ball yet, crossing my fingers! (Not saying you can’t be sad about losing compendium, or rules changes that are happening, everyone’s feelings are valid! Just that I’m actually looking forward to what’s to come!)
Those shapes for movement made the game unplayable, I gave up even trying after just reading the rules. I couldn’t visualize ranges while looking at the units. They couldn’t even be bothered to add logic to the shapes like square is 4 or hexagon is 6.
Ruler system is stupid f%*king thing ever they should go tile based and be done with it. 40k rules as is absolutely make the game unplayable. Wish they would do more PC games or even a 40k digital card in boxes so you can streamline it online
Yeah, big disappointment on the lack of updates for compendium teams. Definitely some of those things are not great. I still think the core system is great, and there's nothing stopping us from doing a little homebrew and/or proxying to make the rules and teams to our favor. Still, good update video, thank you.
The compendium was always a bandaid solution, they were never going to be permanent. Also, the rules look to be barely changing, so could prob just still play em anyway.
Its really a pity that i cannot use compendium teams in the next Edition. I have so many, and my friends also play a lot compendium. To be honest, first i was hyped (New scions and vespids Look cool, terrain is fantastisch) but now im really disappointed.
I don't have any issue with them abandoning compendium teams - they haven't given them any updates in years now, they were never going to make it. The only issue I have is that some of the teams on there don't have a bespoke version that can be used (for instance Tyranids)
@@BlommaBaumbart Yeah I'd be expecting one to come out eventually, but my point is it sucks for compendium team players (such as Tyranid players) until then as the compendium team won't be playable
Kill Team has become a way for GW to release new infantry units for 40k while getting to double-dip by also getting people to buy boxes for JUST Kill Team. For example, Kommandos with Snikrot is a core Ork list item, and also Exaction and Inquisitorial Agents get to fill out the Agents of the Imperium options.
I'm no GW stan, and I'm rarely jonesing to get the latest new thing, but I'm actually interested in the new changes! Especially solo play. List building was never big for me.
As someone who has never played kill team but would love to get into it, the new solo and cooperative modes are a freaking awesome edition. I for one will be visiting my local warhammer store asap to find out more
I like the more streamlined rules, and I get how it can be easier to balance teams when they are more or less fixed. This in turn should allow them to more clearly define the play styles for each team. However I do miss the variety and flexibility offered by KT2018 - I wish there was a game mode to allow for this (minus plasma spam). Having said that, the bespoke nature of the teams does allow them to make some really interesting and unique models.
It will be pretty similar to Octsriud. Dense ruins custom made for the game. Two teams. Everything needed to play the game as intended. Probably a bit better as it doesn't seem like one of the teams need another box like Veteran Guard.
Easy to agree about numbers over shapes and that they're looking into the cover/los aspect. Love solo and co-op modes as well. In terms of list building, they probably have some data that competitive play drives a lot of engagement with the game. While limiting the game to bespoke teams means they get to sell you specific teams, it seems way too limiting to do if they know they're likely going to cut off a large chunk of their player base. Would be cool to see a set of rules for list building for non-competitive kill team along side the bespoke teams that are green lit and balanced for comp.
Indeed. A "turn" and a "turning point" are not the same. A "round" and a "turning point" are pretty much the same. (Do we know if Uncle Atom objects to big 40k's use of "battle round" instead of "turn".)
I am very positive about the changes, what I have learnt since actually playing miniature war games is that while list building can be fun when you're alone and can't play a game, the main enjoyment I get from the hobby is rolling dice and laughing with my opponent at the silly and ridiculous things that happen. So the fact it's going co op is just fantastic. I share your frustration with the ploys, but I LOVE tactical ploys, it is essentially heroic actions from MESBG, which I love. So I hope they ditch strat ploys. Also, I play the murder clowns (Void Dancers) and I can't stand the bean counting you need to do to fully utilise their main army ability so I would be happy to say good bye to all those mechanisms, just make it a baked in ability or forget it
I might be late to reply but I still want to express my disappointment when I discovered, returning from a long slumber that lasted all second edition, that my farsight enclave hunter cadre I was planning to finish painting got erased from the game. I don't play big 40k so I guess those models will never see the light of day. Another element I miss are the selectable keywords, like septs. I really love the solo-coop idea.
Every company wants you to buy more of their shit. Yes it's greedy, but it's also not like the people who throw money at GW weren't going to spend a fuckton more. A current kill team is cheaper than before to start from scratch, the gameplay is far better and far more mentally stimulating, and a lot of list building choice is an illusion so it's not like that much has been lost.
I agree about the loss of compendium teams, a friend of mine specifically bought a box of plague marines to play the compendium team specifically for a more streamlined experience. The only thing is, I think its a bit late. Most compendium teams have been abandoned and barely playable for a good while now.
Most of the changes seem to tighten up the game. Sure, it's a shame about compendium teams but the gap between "compendium" and "bespoke" teams was crippling. My first game was GK compendium versus Hunter Clade and it was a complete wash. In this case I'll say out with the old. I have enjoyed the complexity of bespoke teams more than list building with many choices of which only a few are correct.
Its funny you say that because I feel like I could still play kt21 for another 3 years not because the new edition is crap but because the game isn't "solved" yet.
@@kjs5932This is the weirdest part of the game. So many factions got two or more bespoke teams and some got none. Gallowdark not getting a Tyranid team is peak weird.
Kill Team was actually my introduction to Warhammer and skirmish games, period. The rules felt both simple to learn, but had a lot of these... complex nuances for anyone who actually wanted to really go balls deep. My first team is an Ecclesiarchy team... And they suck in just about every board that isn't Gallowdark lol. The compendium teams outside Deathguard and to an extent Emperor's Talons are pretty much ass, but it would have been cool to see some kind of update for them. While them getting rotated out does nothing to change the competitive landscape, I would have at least like ld an update that would have made compendium teams an actual viable option if you wanted to get serious with the game... I also wouldnt be surprised if even veteran guardsmen and ork kommandoes and a few of the early bespoke teams get rotated out with every passing competitive season the way sets in MtG rotate out of standard.
I'm disappointed that they are removing the compendium. Including basic troop boxes, which are easily available, was a good way to get 40K players into Kill Team. Since the rules seem to be similar, we may be able to translate Compendium to the new edition. Or I can play Kill Team 2018. Or I can use the 7th edition Kill Team rules with 10th edition 40K. Oh the heresy.
The thing is, KT doesn't need to go out of its way to encourage 40k players to start now. That was the case when KT was new and they knew the only way to get enough players was to say "hey here's a smaller scale alternative to 40k and you can use your existing models!" I suspect it will be possible to convert Compendium teams to the current ruleset, but it doesn't change that Compendium teams are over-complicated, which goes against the design philosophy of KT today. The majority are just not fun to play with or against because of the amount of team-exclusive rules and micro-managed customisation that your opponent needs to keep track of.
Compendium teams were way less accessible than bespoke teams unless you happen to already own the stuff. Most of them required 2 boxes minimum, and up to 4 boxes if you wanted all the options.
I know people were nervous about the potential changes to the previous KT, which was near perfect to many (barring cover rules, etc). But everything I hear of KT 2024 seems right up my alley. I'm all for simplifying and streamlining, and the inclusion of solo/coop rules is exciting! It seems this is one of the "good" GW games, much like Warcry and Underworlds.
they said you could download the new data cards so you could tray out new teams before spending the money so you would be able to use your collections of models.
It's been rumored GW is trying to keep sales of each game/line separate from the others to help accounting... I guess. That's one of the (again rumored) reasons Beasts of Chaos were removed from Age of Sigmar as they'll be fully supported in The Old World. Could this move to only supporting bespoke Kill Teams be due to this to?
Just started learning KT. The shapes actually make a lot of sense in context of moving over terrain, and despite my initial moaning, I don't dislike the system. My hope is that reverting back to inches will make it more intuitive, but breaking distances down into specific increments was not a bad idea in my opinion. Other games like Star Wars Legion used measuring widgets that were unique to the system, and not many people (that I know at least) complained about it. Equipment points don't bother me at all, but maybe only 4 pieces will really matter in any game, so perhaps it's not a loss. Solo/Co-op I LOVE though. I am looking forward to giving that a shot. Only thing that really has me worried is if they change team composition enough to render my current builds useless. I'd hate to feel the "need" to buy a new kit again. On the bright side, if I really dislike the new edition, I'm sure I will be able to find some of the current books for cheap. I've been studying the "Lite" rules and Wahapedia.
Honestly not sure how I feel about the loss of the compendium. On one hand, it's a real shame, but on the other, did anyone ever really use it at all? I thought the general consensus was that the bespoke teams were so much better that people just used that instead. So I kinda get why they don't wanna update the compendium rules, after all, why spend development time on something that very few people use anyway.
I'm happy to see the focus on it being its own game, rather than a bonus game you can play with minis you might already have from another game. Will hopefully allow for a tighter more balanced design. List building is just another barrier to getting started playing for us.
Thats not the main reason 40k splits datasheets. They're split to give the different loadouts different abilities. If the purpose was to balance equipment way more datasheets would be split.
@@TemporalElpis Abilities could easily have been tied to the weapons in the current system, we see it in GSC. If you really want to argue what the reason behind splitting data sheets, it was probably to boost the number of data sheets and hide how many units are being cut. Technically T'au only lost like two units if you compare Index to Codex, but comparison ignores things like the Crisis Suits becoming 3 sheets. Crisis Suits were also one of the best examples of why 'free wargear' doesn't work.
So excited for some streamlined rules, when I first became interested in Killteam the volume of rules and lack of structure was a huge turrnoff for me. Seeing these new rules and hearing your concerns though it does have me thinking about my 40k armies that dont have support now-- I love my Orks but will there ever be support for my weirder ones?
GW: We are going to use Kill Team (alongside Combat Patrol) as an on ramp for larger 40K games to get players on board simply and move them up to full armies. Me: So, the Kill Team rules will be similar to the 40K rules? GW: No Me: So you can custom build your team to represent different 40K units? GW: Ummm... No. Me: So you can use 40K minis in KT and KT minis in 40K. GW: ...... Hmmmm. No.
@@HB2K-h8m I'm not sure how it is in 40k, but in AoS warcry bands are quite good and in some armies they're a staple, hoping we get something similar in 40k
Nearly all KT can be used in 40k, so yeah? Custom built KTs were too imbalanced and having similar rules to 40k resulted in worse gameplay. Moving on to specialized ruleset and new model each season was right decision
Why can't we just treat it as a fun skirmish game and not some gateway to bighammer 😔 I think boarding actions and combat patrol is the real gateway to bighammer
KT18 was my first skirmish wargame and my intro to playing 40k. I have a ton of great memories playing it with friends. KT21 is absolutely a better game though and ive had even more fun with it than the prior edition. Yes it was more complicated at first but with a good community and actually playing the game i found that my concerns about it didnt come true and the rules were straightforward enough to facilitate fast but deep gameplay. I finally feel like a grumbling grognard, ive loved this edition so much and really don't want it to swing back in the direction of the previous. Gonna hard disagree with Adam on listbuilding and ploys. Teams and balance feel alot tighter with more set lists and actually makes lists smal enough to build and paint with my limited time, and ploys and the cp economy adds both interesting decision making and army flavor that otherwise wouldnt make sense being confined to a single datasheet.
I love KT, this new edition is trimming the fat of stuff I didn’t like. I’m not gonna miss DEF dice. Now hopefully they made the melee combat better too.
I got into kill team because of your enthusiasm for 1st edition. I dutifully got the terrain for the T’au/Space Wolf version, then the new edition came and I was sad I couldn’t play my necrons as I wanted to. I’m glad they’ve got rid of distance symbols, as that really put me off playing. I built myself a version of the Necron kill team, converting the apprentek as I didn’t want to pay for even more immortals, with an upgrade sprue, so stuck with minis I already owned
Every time I look into Killteam, I keep going back to Deadzone. There are so many options for sci-fi skirmish now, my next will be Five Parsecs. Killteam doesn't seem to give you much opportunity to make a bespoke warband with their own story. When the next edition is out in the wild, I'll check it out, but.ifnit isn't staggeringly different than it's current form, it will be another pass for me.
I feel there a lot of good changes like getting rid fo the shapes was definetly the right move. In thecaes of the compenbdium it really depends which one. If its getting rid of the base one eeeehhhhh, I feel it may impact solo/co-op more because there's things I want to use as NPO's such as Poxwalkers and Generic Guard/GSC for a true Darktide feeling. If they're getting rid of the Annual 2022 compendium teams then I feel thats a big misstep. The issue is that KT is supported and has a following but it's still a very small following and to get rid of KT's for competitive balence is just going to make it harder to sell the game. Even though it's trying hard to be it's own standout skirmish game it still has the stigma of being "gateway 40k" and it's going to be a hard sell to get folks involved if I tell them they can only play certain models/factions. A prime example is my partner. She's fallen in love with Thousand Sons and doesn't want to play other armies. If they get rid of the Warpcoven or don't re-introduce them to KT-2E then she won't play it's as simple as that. I have a feeling most folk who own model collections will feel that same way. I like the changes being laid out are good and I hope we quickly see the re-introduction of mutiple kill-zones such as the Gallowdark and such as I really want to give my Nemesis Claw a throrough go into this new edition but it will be hard to play if my freinds who don't own specific KT's can't get involved with the factions they love.
I'm actually looking forward to the new edition. I still consider myself new to warhammer and I tried the last edition. It was too confusion with cover and the symbols, but I still thought it had potential. I think they're addressing those core issue, and as Adam said making it accessable. Regardng the model box sets, I don't mind too much because I can intergrate those models into my larger armies for 40k - and they always seem to have unique figures so they look cooler when intergrate into my larger armies. I'm willing to give the game a second shot this time around. I hope they actually fixed things instead and not in the reverse direction. Thanks for the video Adam!
I bought into the first kill team just in time for it to become obsolete. I like the terrain in the box set but I’m done with GW as a rule writer. I love the lore having read a lot of black library stuff in the last year it’s just a shame the game doesn’t reflect the overall narrative. I still like the miniatures when I can get them at a discounted price. So what am I going to do. Well I’m just going to play chain of command with 40k minis. With a few house rules for flavour.
I think the only new part I am NOT very excited about is the loss of Compendium armies. That said, myself and most people in my gaming group run "bespoke" teams almost always. (i have an Intercession squad i was running for 2 reasons: to learn the game on a team with less variety, and to show off some Fabulous Marines. I sort of retired them for more standard teams) Moving away from that, everything else has me impatiently waiting for October! GREAT terrain. More streamlined Rules. Solo Play!!! Co-op play!!!! I have found, the number one thing that has helped when getting new people to try Miniature games is when there is a form of Co-op playing available. There is a *HUGE* group of people out there that are hardcore board game gamers, and they even play a lot of board games with miniatures now. I have so many miniature games i have purchased, assembled, and painted for the one purpose of trying to intro them to the game. Co-op play is pretty common in so many board games, and you get to put any sort of competitiveness on the shelf, and work together. I feel like this is actually a bigger deal in making Kill team a "Gateway" tabletop miniature game, than we might realize. Who knows - Co-op mode might be a snore-fest, but if not, thumbs up. My (very long) journey in the hobby has always had a focus on bringing more people into it, and being more inclusive. Co-op play really does open some doors. ALL of us should always be looking to make the hobby world a larger place! Thanks for another great video! ❤
It sounds like you didn’t like the second edition which is a shame because imo it is GWs best game. Los rules are hard at first but clear if you play a lot. In fact the complex line of sight rules are one of the best points of the game. But what I also like about it is how well balanced it is and how well it plays when trying to play competitively which most gw games function better narratively. And for balance sake the compendium teams have to go.
In my opinion, Warcry is their best game - and it has amazing list building Compendium options AND the ability to use bespoke lists, too. Thanks for watching!
@@procrastibate yeah, he's really salty about not being able to use old minis, it's so childish. Also really doesn't seem to like any kind of intellectually stimulating rules. The raving about warcry as above is honestly really sad. It's not a bad game and has lots of potential, but it needs a lot of work and love. Hence why it isn't doing anywhere near as well as kt21.
@@tabletopminions Part of the reason I have trouble getting into Warcry as a new player, though, is the thought that my bespoke one-box warband is already at a disadvantage against people with existing collections or who are buying into larger AoS and can beat me at the list-building stage. I got my butt kicked at the two Kill Team events I've been to, but at least it wasn't because my opponents spent more on their models.
My friends and I are swapping to mordheim. The community is still alive, the rules are free online, and GW can’t ruin a game they discontinued (you could also do this with 1st edition KT, but Mordheim just had more appeal)
I can see why they got rid of list building: It's hard to balance, especially in something as swingy as a skirmish game. I also perfectly understand being upset over it. Using the toys you already have and slightly tweaking it as needed is a cool thing. I like how Spearhead has handled it, where they're using selected units from the box sets they've released in the past, which also happen to be many of the units that people will will just happen to already have if they have that army. You loose the creativity, but you gain people already having collected the models for their armies. In just my sporadic collecting of "what do I find cool?" or "what do I need for D&D this month?" I've collected within 4-12 models of like 4 spearheads.
It's not that hard to balance though. I've been playing several skirmish games that have deep list building and customization and have been very balanced. If you've not tried Trench Crusade you're missing out. GW just doesn't bother playtesting and doesn't care to do so. If they release something that's an unbalanced mess meta chasers flock to get it, if they release something balanced and cool they get a nice chunk of change, and if they release something bad and that nobody wants they just make it OP for a little (see the space marine desolation squad). They have little incentive to get it right and don't care to fix it.
True, but it’s a dungeon crawler not a wargame, and that’s the category he meant to have in focus I think. Otherwise there’s Space Hulk, Darktide, etc.
There's always the option to just keep playing the current edition. I understand people feel inclined to be using the most up to date version. But to anyone getting annoyed by GW changes again. It's your game with plastic soldiers. Just use which ever ruleset/edition you prefer.
@@tabletopminionsIf they are 40k players, there's a good chance a friend of a friend already got it. If they are totally new, the current (and upcoming) version is *much* cheaper to start with. (And better.)
@@tabletopminionsthat's generally how a new player would get into an OOP product, yes. 😅 The statement "use whatever you prefer" kinda implies that this comment was not aimed at new players.
Personally, the thing I really enjoy about kill team is the stealth part of it. The whole conceal/engage orders stopped you from being alpha struck turn 1. It allowed you to position models effectively. But I do think KT 2018 was a better game.
Really enjoyed KT 2018. Didn't really play KT 2021 due it moving to the format where the Kill Teams are "pre-made" and had to be bought as separate boxes. Moreover some of weapons were so unique they couldn't be used in other games. Started looking into building some simple Kill Teams recently in line with the KT 2021 Compendium. Now I hear that those lists will be voided again, and I really can only use the pre-built boxes, I will probably give this whole addition a pass as well. Too bad, I really liked the co-op idea. Anyway, will probably start making lists based on One Page Rules Firefight. Maybe if I ever want to play co-op I'll use Space Station Zero's AI rules. :-)
The 2021 version is simply a much better game. Specialized kits allow for much better balance, new special weapons and cool rules and still allow for huge customization. For example look at Legionaries or Votann teams. Compendium teams sucked compared to the dedicated ones and were never worth playing if you like deep tactical gameplay.
@@psz5515 I can't agree with you. KT21 is missing everything that made kt18 special. You have fixed team size, almost fixed loadout, you need to buy special boxes to play and the rules are bloated. And it's supper hard to make custom narative missions unlike in kt18 or in GFF from OPR. One thing that i agree with is that it's more balanced than kt18. But it could be fixed if the company wanted make a good game. And also... GFF is better balanced than kt21 and it doesn't have the same problems.
So glad they got rid of the shapes. I like crunchy rules though. Then again I’m an old gamer. I like lots of different cover rules and stuff. Hated the group activation concept in the last edition too
I have a lazy Custodes compendium kill team since you just need to roll out 4 minis, it was perfect for teaching the basics of the game and they had a decent enough chance of winning. Now I've got 4 custodes that don't fit into any of my collections.
@@imthelizardking I get what he's saying tho. I started my SoB KT at the beginning of the year, I'm just about done with the paint, and this new edition will render them completely obsolete. I got 15 models total, a SoB squad of 10 and 4 repentias plus the repentia superior. It sucks that I wont be able to play them as soon as KT24 comes out. I got the Kommandos to get more options for KT21, but I guess thats all I'll be playing on the new edition. I know we can always play KT21, regardless, but I was looking forward to seeing how compendium KTs would be a part of the new edition and now they most likely wont be. It just sucks.
There are things I like, solo/co-op. But I'm with you on the frustration of the removal of the compendium lists. I never played one but I was thinking about it. I'm also not wild about the removal of options. That's never a good thing. Also now I have to worry that the Intercessor Kill Team I've been working on may go away
The hobby is WARGAMING - not being ripped off by a bloated company that relentlessly always puts profits first. Folks need to break their addiction & get into better things done by independents, that allow for some creativity ….
Yes. Down with the measuring shapes! If they made sense I would be fine with them. Circle = 1, line = 2, Triangle = 3, Square = 4, etc,, but no, that is not how the shapes worked.
Purely bespoke groups makes it easier to balance, reduces jank, and also encourages people to spend money. I think the reality is that GW doesn't make games for "hobbyists" anymore. Good thing there's a robust indisphere for that.
I don't really get this. If you want to proxy other units with warhams model its tournament legal as long as it looks good and preserves the bases/roughly the silhouettes. You've had youtube personalities taking the 'nurgle' team of necrons for example. And you're always free to do whatever you want at home, I'll confess I played some paper standies from time to time. Don't see how this is a problem. "Oh I can only use guardsmen" Brother you can proxy six to eight teams with 'just guardsmen' and have it look good. Take your pick maybe expand the imagination a touch.
I agree. I used to enjoy the way GW used to encourage kit-bashes and conversions for the original Killteam in 4th edition, and how to build your own terrain. These days its just pushing more products so your table is just like everyone else's with little to no personality.
@@MushieNino Exactly. I have to wonder how much the people who say you can't proxy/convert anymore actually play the game. Anecdotally I have a heavily proxied/converted hunter clade team that I've had no problem playing, even at big tourneys. It sucks that the official material doesn't encourage it like it used to, but you absolutely can still do it
@@MushieNino bingo. Kill Team 21 has always been focused on these very strictly defined teams with limited list building or sometimes none. The hobby side has been very healthy and the community is very receptive to kitbashed teams as long as they are readable as what they're standing in for and proper base sizes etc. Playing compendium teams, besides a notable few (custodes with a sister and custodian team, tyranids, double scion team IG stand out to me) has been a bad idea even for beer and pretzels kill team with how bad a lot of them are. The way kill team is you're not going to have a good time if you brought compendium necrons against Kommandos. This video reeks of someone who doesn't really play the game dooming. I will miss a few compendium teams but otherwise it was something we all expected would be part of the new edition for a while.
You do realize that new players won't have an existing army to make a list from 😐 Its a lot cheaper to just buy a box of a faction you want than to buy multiple boxes just for one team
Options are always nice though. Like if you have some figures of the main games to mix in or try it out thats a good option. Even buying single miniatures of a squad secondhand would be an option here.
![[Kill Team 3rd Edition] The Best Teams to Start With!](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/SND44q6uO10/mqdefault.jpg)
Solo mode is a win for all of us with no friends.
We're not lonely. We just play life on solo mode.
@@stankshop I would bet the majority of people who play warhammer thier only human interaction is at the gameshop where they play. The community is full of losers and weirdos.
The friendless unite!!!!
Solo mode is godsend I have no friends!!! 🎉
Don't have friends to play KT? Find a place where KT is played, make friends.
Solo and COOP is incredibly important in the current state of boardgames. GW has probably started paying attention to what happens elsewhere in the nerdosphere. I bet you they are trying to rope in some boardgamers with this
Its funny he thinks he invented solo play but GW had it in Blackstone fortress
@@procrastibate He was clearly making a joke...
@@Chozo_hybrid he was clearly trying to suggest that his games were inspirational in GW adding solo mode to new KT. I'd say he's wrong
Holy crow, found the GW Shrimp. 🙄
Indies have been pushing Solo and Coop for years. Blackstones version of it was pretty janky. Add to that the fact that their "rules" have been built to push new models, and even push old ones into "Legends."
Utter GW garbage man. I hated Kill Team MK1's Flesh Wound rules but MK2 and if this is MK3, not impressed.
@@procrastibate The Assassins game too.
Definitely happy with the solo play option. Also inches instead of shapes is good.
Inches over the stupid shapes is more than enough to sell 3rd edition to me lol
Now if they only could move from inches to centimeters, like the rest of the civilized world :P
@@theandfIn day to day life yes. In wargaming inches rule. :)
@@jirga_jirga They used cm for Battlefleet Gothic.
@@theandf If you wanted centimeters in wargaming you shouldn't have lost the IRL war! 😜
By the sound of it I believe GW is going in exactly the right direction with this new edition of Kill Team, based primarily on the fact that they are treating it as it's own game. I understand what you want is 40k skirmish like what the "original" KT was but I feel that leads to exactly the sort of half baked system we have with Combat Patrol. 40k is made to be 40k and making a smaller version of that just takes away a lot of the fun of the system. With the current and future version of KT they are making a dedicated skirmish game wholly independent from the 40k game, and the gameplay is better for it.
There's some of what you said I can certainly agree with, cover rules or more specifically obscuring rules were a bit clunky and could use some tuning but the engage/conceal component of the game is critical to the enjoyment of the experience and I'm glad to see based on the tokens at least it appears to be returning. Ultimately I think a lot of fans out there need to separate KT from 40k and enjoy it for what it really is Kill Team not 40k Skirmish.
I think you’re right. One of the reasons i liked 2018KT was because it was skirmish 40K but I think that’s why it was a mess
Building your own team was really the ONLY good thing about KT 2018... I played guard and lost almost EVERY one of the 30-something matches I played because the rules were 40k but for single models and had nothing to do with making any non-space marine teams viable.
KT21 was great for balance with teams and fun missions but lost all the customization and appeal but damn it played fun and tense and suddenly my poor guardsmen had some thrilling and successful missions.
I dunno. The only real way to have BOTH systems is to do what One Page Rules does and itemize all the gear and abilities etc... and GW does not want to do that for obvious reasons.
Except that the whole point behind Kill Team was to make these cool narrative groups and not just a normal squad from 40k. That is what separated Kill Team from 40k. Doing what they keep doing just makes this a combat patrol.
You have a cookie for saying that sooooo well, the game has it's own identity and payer base now, they keep all the good stuff and throw away the points that were the most critiscized by players and non-players (the ones who didn't catch up with more than 1 or 2 tests)
@@charlesforward9036 Weirdly I've had the opposite result. My guard and CSM kill teams in 2018 felt great, but for KT 21 if you're using a T3 army vs marines the game is decided on the marine players loadout. You're SOL either way. If they rock up with nothing but bolters they're going to just melt your team in one turn of fire and then you're done. Sure KT18 probably could have used a cap for how many plasma guns you're allowed per team, but other than that it felt great. For a newbie it helped keep the game simple. KT21 somehow avoids teaching you 40k's rules, while also being a bloated poorly written mess that takes far too long to play because of their own mess of baggage they added instead of keeping it to a tight streamlined system.
I’m going to reiterate my critique of KT 2018 - it was a game that favoured players with extensive bits boxes. Players that could kit out a whole team with plasma guns were at a substantial advantage compared to new players who were just building models from one or two boxes.
Modern Kill Team is clearly designed as a gateway game - you buy one box, you build a team, and you’re ready to play against any other team in the game.
As a hobby challenge, perhaps it’s less fulfilling, but ad a gateway into the hobby, it seems vastly improved.
Agreed, KT2018 wasn't bad for some "your guys" flavor BUT good grief so much came down to min/max mathing your way with very specific types of gear loadouts for your guys, many of which couldn't be acquired in a normal way. Hell forget sticking every Guardsman with the spammy plasma sprues, you literally only had 1 truly legal non kitbashed option for Chaos Cultist Champion unit(the dude with the shotgun and sword) and it only existed(at least when KT2018 was new) via a long out of print CSM vs SM box set, a rarer mini in general.
I understand people feeling like list building element is a good practice for other stuff, but sometimes people don't wanna be so bothered with mini 40k for something that's supposed to go a bit quicker.
Yeah the new one is definitely a better "gateway drug" but it really doesn't help players take the leap into 40k proper anymore. And it lacks the depth you'd need to integrate it as cleanly with a narrative, while having it's own massive pile of bloat and baggage that it really didn't need. They seem to want to make a nice tight intro game but can't actually bring themselves to stick to a nice tight game. And it's still a gearcheck for half of your fights.
KT21 is the reason I hobby at all these days. My concern was that all the KT21 teams would become invalid in KT24, but now knowing that “almost every” (whatever that actually means) of the KT21 teams will get updated rules for KT24 is what will keep me hobbying and playing. I understand that the list building aspect of a game is a deal breaker for Uncle Adam, but personally KT21 is a really fun game, and the fun is more important to me than mathhammering. Also the ability to just try so many different KTs since they are mostly one box pick ups, so if you don’t like how one plays, try a different one. Lastly, I think the compendium made sense for KT21, as there were only 2 official KTs upon release, so it gave a way to easily make other KTs. But now that 24ish boxed KTs for KT21, you don’t really need a compendium, as there could be a lot of easy 1 box pick up teams right from the start.
Yeah, I used to think list building is fun until I've played KT21 :D. With little hobby time nowadays I really appreciate that I need only one or two boxes to be able to play most of the teams. That puts a clear limit on both financial engagement for a particular team and time engagement because I know precisely how much models I need to paint to be able to field the team in any allowed combination. On top of that KT21 is just a really good game. It's tight, it's fun, it's very tactical and well balanced. I'm really happy KT24 is shaping to be just a slight upgrade to the existing version.
100%
I played the previous edition and is was reduces to plasma spam, the bespoke teams added specialists and the ability to have a KT without having to buy multiple sets to have all the available models
Which ones are gone has been clarified. Compendium is gone. All bespoke teams stays, maybe with the exception of Intercessors and Justian which are edge cases not covered by the wording in the article.
@@jonasbarkaI thought they may get rid of the Striking Scorpion team since I have no problem admiring that they really don’t follow the kill team specialist design
Getting rid of the compendium teams feels like something that was always part of the plan. They only existed so the game wasn't just Orks Vs Guard.
Also GW have been matching rules to the contents of boxes for a while now. It's a little worse for existing players who already have two to for squads they can pick and mix from. For new players or players wanting to try a different faction just buying one box is so much better.
I think the compendium style mixed kill teams may come back in some (limited) way by GW packing an Intercessor sprue with a Phobos sprue, for example.
No, it only existed to sell more books. They double the cost of the books then split it in half. The 2018 Kill Team rule book included the compendium in the rule book.
@TallTaleGael they confirmed that the harlequin team is staying. All the teams in the 2022 annual are ok i thought. Void dancer troupe is staying.
@@gregi696 The 2018 Kill Team was a terrible, unbalanced mess, and the less we talk about it the better.
@@OmegaDezI agree with you on the balance front.
@TallTaleGael theyve already confirmed that the annual teams like Harliqunns are getting rules for kill team, its just those ones from the origina compendium that is getting the boot, and the only ones not replace yet really are talons of emporer and nids
GW has had some fantastically balanced and playable rules but dumped them in favor of selling books. I am so sick of it and no longer buy into it. Hell, I don't even buy into their pricing model anymore, as it is absolutely ridiculous. I can buy a Tamiya infantry squad for 6 to 10 USD and tanks for ~30 USD, so why the hell are we paying 45 USD for a squad and 150+ USD for vehicles? It is utterly moronic and I refuse to pay it.
I love Classic Battletech as the rules have not really changed since the 1980s.
How do you think us Aussies feel about GW pricing.
I'll honestly never buy one of thier rules books. GW just keeps trying to price gouge me but I guess they dont understand that I dont give a fuck what they say about rules and I dont give a shit about thier updates/books.
Let's not forget about how ridiculously they price they single minis these days.
They literally just made all Kill Team rules free in their new app.
As a club and tournament organizer spanning the current edition, I am extremely relieved that the ruleset is not undergoing a drastic change. I’ll agree that the loss of the Compendium is a disappointment, as it was great for teaching games, but in our experience, when a new player latched onto the gameplay, they got excited by the concept of bespoke teams and would often have one bought and built by our next weekly meet up. As for the use of non-KT 40k models, it looks like they’ll be excellent “NPOs” for the solo and co-op missions, as shown on WarCom this morning.
KT18 was mini 40K. The buy in for someone wanting to play for example space marines was nuts. Yes you could buy one box and off you go, but then the power struggle started and before you know it you had bought 6 boxes to various marines to get the team,roaster you wanted to be able to compete with the other people that had done the same. Now its 1 box and your done, maybe a second box if your want every option, but for the most part its one box. The new kill team is a low invertment game, two teams, a core rulebook, tokens and a surface to play on and your set. No power creep because you opponent bought 3 more faction boxes and now bring a combo of 5 over power units. Its more balanced. Oh and finally the charge rule in KT18 was hot garbage. I can move 6" but if I charge i could move less as charge was part of the movement not an additional move. In one game i had a rust stalker that failed a 5 inch move 4 times but could walk 8" normally. Dont miss the power creep or the rule set of the open design of KT18.
Not to mention the kt18 break test mechanic. If you ran a horde team like orks you would only get to play half the game before your orks broke and ran. Not fun
Or, if you already had Space Marines, you could build a Kill Team without buying anything. That’s the real issue for Games Workshop here. Thanks for watching!
@@tabletopminionsthat's a pretty gutless response.
Every
Single
Company
In
Existence
Want's people to buy more of their products.
Kt18 only benefited people who already had an army or two. For anyone who didn't what was the cost to get started?
Yeah gw is rather shit with milking it's customers, but currently it's cheaper and easier to get people into the hobby with kt21 and will be for kt24. Plus how many people have bought kill team boxes to use in their standard armies? Probably a metric shit-ton.
And while the rules could be *written* better, they're still not that complex and are far more mentally stimulating than anything gw has put out in decades.
Lost all respect. This has been the the saddest, saltiest whinge I've seen from a hobby channel in a while.
Also fyi, they're still keeping the "hide and seek" mechanics, one of the smartest additions to a gw game ever. The order tokens are a pretty clear indication that stealth will be in.
@@fatal-flaw10 That is not entirely true. What companies actually want is to maximise their revenue. Ideally by not doing, producing or selling anything. Ideally they want money for nothing. The question is how hard do they push this.
Most companies are pretty happy with delivering a product or service with some value for the customer while making a decent and sustainable profit. This is where GW differs and why their business practices are quite douchey. There is a reason why they are fequently critisied for their bad value for money and exploitive methods.
The fact that they now will not provide rules for Kill Team specific kits is one of them. There is no reasons to discontinue a Kill Team. It would cost them basically nothing to provide updated rules. But they decided to drop some, which ones they do not specify, for no reason other than trying to force people who allready have Kill Teams to buy new ones. Few other companies in the tabletop and wargaming business behave like this.
Nobody has a problem with GW or other companies making money. A lot of people have a problem with extortionate prices as well as manipulative and deceptive communication just to push profit margines and return on investment to obscene levels.
@@schnuersi wow, there's a lot to unpack here.
1. No, most companies aren't. Don't know if you've checked lately but prices for EVERYTHING is going up, and most of that is gouging. I will include GW in that though.
2. Uhhhh..... They've actually made it *crystal clear* that they will be releasing all the rules for existing AND future bespoke kill teams for free online.
They are canning the *Compendium* teams, which has already drawn ire, including mine as a few of them were good, but they have actually specified compendium teams *specifically*. The only grey area is the Whit Dwarf teams. So you either haven't actually read the news/paid attention, or..... well...
3. Yeah I have a problem with extortionate prices too. And I'll be damned if I pay full price for anything from GW, if I have to at all (hooray for internet piracy with rulebooks).
This is also why I support kill team and necromunda over everything else from GW.
It's so much cheaper and anyone can find the rules online for free. In a lot of places around the world other games just don't draw in players and we're stuck with the big boys or nothing. At least this game is good, and it's damn good.
I'm *really* pushing myself to be polite here, but if you want to make a point make sure you're fully loaded and concrete in your facts.
I'm just happy they're changing to inches instead of the stupid shapes thing they kept forcing.
Killteam 2027 will probably switch to centimeters.
Killteam 2058 will probably switch to Tarot cards.
@@volcano3493 or actual bolters
Unless you’re playing at tournaments, play what ever edition of rules you want 🤷♂️
HA!
Everyone plays the latest edition even casually.
@@Redtecho yeah, because this one isn't shit 🤣
This is always such a pointless comment because unless you have a large consistent isolated gaming group that all agrees, this never happens.
good luck getting stuff for old rules
@@Axonteer have you not heard of pdf scans? I haven't bought a rulebook/armybook/module etc. In a decade.
I agree that it's a bit lame that we don't get to build custom whacky teams, but it's been kinda clear for a few years now that this isn't the direction GW wants to go. Again, bit lame, but i've made my peace with it, there are other games.
As far as Kill Team is concerned, I'm kinda hyped about this new edition. Despite it's shortcomings in terms of customization and such, KT2021 was a real fun game, and the Into the Dark terrain made it imo even better. I also like that for this edition - although i haven't seen them really talk about that - there seem to be fewer "special" operatives and more "regular" ones. Like, in the two new teams, each seems to have 4 operatives that are just basic dudes, and idk i kinda like that, but i've always liked having more vanilla troops in my wargames anyway so maybe it's just me.
Was not a fan so I moved over to deadzone and boy that is an amazing game. Mantic don’t get enough props for how good the rules are.
@@colinmack8655when?
@@colinmack8655 Mantic minis aren't very good, though
The Veer-myn (space skaven) look great, but I agree beyond that @@michaelcarter577
Remember folks, you can do whatever you want especially if you're casual, you can STILL use your custom Kill Team, no one is going to kick your door down and flashbang your gaming room just because you mix and match your a custom rule set.. You can even make custom cards etc.. If you love Kill Team, make it your own.. They can't stop you.
Guy who disliked current edition doesn't like the next one so far. Color me shocked lol.
I like that they're trimming the fat a bit, and looking forward to the co-op play.
All the bespoke teams are being updated from what I read though. I think you're mistaken about it not being all. Only the compendium, which was always a bandaid solution and GW were not subtle about it, so I'm not surprised. - Edit: I may be wrong here, there may be some bespoke teams being affected too. We'll just have to wait an see. - End edit.
As for list building, KT2018 was just full of plasmas an almost nothing else. People were not all that unique with list building either.
And yes, numbers better then weird shapes. I may not agree with ya on KT, but I respect ya.
In general I use activation for model and turn for "all models in both teams have been activated" for secondaries and counting point control
They literally said in the article highlighted “almost all released teams” almost is not all.
@@colinmack8655 the little ** it has on that statement takes you to the bottom bit about compendiums not being supported. I assumed that's what it was referring to. Guess we'll just have to wait and see.
@@colinmack8655I've taken into account what you've said and edited the original comment to reflect this possibility 👍
Why do people even pay attention to their rules bullshit? I don't get it... 😂
I think boarding patrol is taking the spot kill team used to have. Little 500 point games that use models from big 40k in a smaller scale, so you can just grab what you have sitting in your collection and jam some games. I love bespoke teams, personally, and never played much compendium, but I'm still sad to see it go
I have a suspicion that the Almost Every Bespoke Kill Team clause is in reference to the Ashes of Faith Boxed Set, as only the Inquisition Acolytes could be considered a Bespoke Kill Team, but the rest of that release was a hodgepodge of previously released models.
I hope you’re right - that would be understandable I suppose. Thanks for watching!
Personally as a person with limited hobby time (if any) not having to worry about all the potential cheese lists and options and just being able to field the models as per its compendium list has always been a MASSIVE plus for me.
Also easier to balance.
Happy the compendium are going online (obsolete books good bye) and glad they are doing away with the silly symbols for measurements.
Definitely not a first for GW to have solo or coop play. Blackstone fortress had it and more recently, the tabletop version of Darktide had it too. For anyone paying attention, Darktide was marketed to newer players as an intro game - if you like it, why not get Kill Team next! - so I feel like it's not surprise that GW are including solo/co-op in the new edition of Kill Team. I'm sure we'll see it in the next iteration of Warcry too.
As a hobbist mostly i really love the new kill team, i liked the old one, and there was some charm in being able to build lists, but the new teams have so much more character:) and at least for me the game plays much smoother, really excited for the small tweaks and fixes to the new version😁 solo play is going to be really great, one of the few good things about covid, people realised solo play is nice to add to your game:)
I think if people are desperate to play with extremely customisable list building, they should just play Combat Patrol or 1000-point WH40k.
@@auradmg totally agree:) its so good for playing as well, im a alittle nuts so i have most teams painted, and i tried hosting a tournament for some friends using my models, but it was a nightmare in 2018, but with 2021 it was amazing. Just gave each person a team and we played:)
Feel like uncle atom has gotten so upset over kill team not being what he liked in 2018 that everything now is negative, and from a person thats normally always so positive:) the killteam scene is booming as well😁👍
I guess its cool I can use my Tyranids, Stealth Suits, and Krootox as NPO's, but it will be harder to get new 40k players into killteam without the pitch "just bring some of your battleline troops and your all set". The simplified ruleset was a bummer for competition, but they were great for light games.
On the flip side putting the killteams online for free is a great business move IMO and I'm sure you could Port 40k models over to a few of them
It's really funny (and sad) to read all the "So what your pet died? You can just buy a new one!" energy about compendium being gone.
The compendium teams are actually still 95% compatible with the rules, so if you're a casual player (the compendium barring one or two teams haven't been viable for at least a year) you can still slot them in _extremely_ easily. It doesn't come as a surprise to anylne who actually plays the game that compendium is being officially retired, and it opens up the opportunity for those factions to get proper bespoke teams :)
(Also kill teams aren't live animals and you can still use the models lmao)
@@collegeoffoliage6776 If it were that easy to convert compendium into KT24 then GW should have done it themselves.
And again, you're saying "just buy a new one, lol" like it's and actual solution. Ignoring the fact that I don't want to use GW's team of anime protagonists, you're expecting me to sit out until GW eventually decides to release a Tyranid team.
Great solution, mate! I guess I'll be over here waiting then.
@@garlicxlr That's actually nonsense, it's incredibly easy to convert to kill team 2024, however many off the compendium kill teams are extremely underpowered, so GW would have to do a complete re-design if they wanted to bring them back in line. If you just want to play compendium vs. compendium with the new rules however, converting is almost effortless.
solo & coop mode might be the single reason for me to finally think about purchasing a GW product. Coming from Board games & mini painting for them, I always missed out on GW and tabletop skirmish or army battle gaming.
I find kill team to be the best introduction to the 40k scene. You'll have more people to play with and I find the different terrain and rules associated with them as fun.
I suppose you also want to increased player base of GW, right? Because these days there are plenty of skirmish solo/coop indie games :) Though they are less known that whatever GW does, of course.
Even as a PvP game Kill Team is by far the best entry into the 40k universe. Contrary to what this video claims, the goal with the newer editions are not to force 40k players to buy more, but to make it easier for new players to begin (they already got the 40k players hooked). One box of minis is a playable team and many don't need more to be completive in tournaments.
To be fair, you also can use your existing models as substitutes for bespoke teams John from canyourollacrit recently played his regular necron models (some with slight modifications) as a gellerpox infected bespoke team and won an official tournament. So if you are down for some hobbytime you can use your kits&bits. Also most specialists are either gunners (plasma, melta etc) and some kind of sniper, medic or comms-person - sometimes someone with a big melee weapon. If you have an 40k army, you can easily bring those models together as a count-as-team and no one will bat an eye.
Canyourollacrit also saw an Emperor's children Hierotek circle in that tournament
Not if the faction you want to play doesn't even have a bespoke team yet which is the main problem with me.
I have a death guard, grey knight and custodes team because I think they look cool. Now I won't even be able to play the new edition even if I want to with them.
I have a few bespoke so it's not an issue, but my problem with move away from compendium is that it should only be done once they have all factions represented as bespoke teams and not before
@@kjs5932 use Death Guard as either Legionary or Nemesis claw (Legionary should be closer mechanically but Nemesis claw has more similar weapons)
It is a harder pass, but I'd say you could use grey knights as intercession, just write down what weapon is what version of intercessor.
@@kjs5932Playing Necrons as Gellerpox is not dependent on there being an official Necrons team.
@@kjs5932You already should have been running the deathguard models as nurgle aligned legionary.
Angels of death could proably be used to run the other two.
I think this edition is a step in the right direction. I enjoyed Kill Team 2021 but it had some convoluted rules.
I don’t mind the bespoke teams as it generally lead to more balanced games (at least in my playgroup).
Moving back to numbers and inches will remove what I think is one of the biggest blockades to cultivating 40k converts
Having recently started kill team, the compendium teams needed a lot of work to be viable versus the bespoke teams. So it’s probably for the best…
I'm very happy with the changes previewed so far. The new edition preserves most of the good things about the core game, and the changes seems to mostly to improve on that.
On the list building issue: There are already plenty skirmish games that support flexible list building. I'm happy Kill Team instead tries to fill the 'niche' of a more tightly balanced/designed, competitive, less chaotic, and very strategic and tactical skirmish game. I think of it as chess with dice - and complexity.
Yup people who want that should join us in deadzone
Honestly list building to me isn't a meaningful expression to me i get that it is to a lot of folks but to me it lead to only selecting from a small subset of things because they are the only things efficient enough to bother spending points on anything else becomes wasting points effectively. The way the kill team operative selection is way more interesting to me because i get to select things after i know my opponent's faction and get to adapt to them on the fly in a way ie. swap a melta for a GL if my opponent is playing a horde team. Or bring the guy that shuts down forward deploys againt teams that can do that. To me those minute to minute decisions are what keeps me coming back time and time again to kill team. List building works great for other games but it also is more aprochable to the average person when they can buy one to two boxes and thays all the investment they need to make as opposed to getting 3-4 boxes so they can list build
I see you have actually played Kill team 21.
I understand the points raised and I'll be honest I let the last edtiion of Kill Team pass me by. I have since warmed to the idea of bespoke teams, much like Bloodbowl, you buy a box and you have everything you need. I'd imagine if your model collection is big enough you can replicate a bespoke team with your own models. I think the straw that broke the camels back to get to try the new edition is the new starter set and hopefully its priced to make it a painless entry point.
As much as I’ll miss my White Dwarf Harlequin team, there are aspects of this that I am a fan of. Having coop and solo play options are things I’m very excited about. Also having static lists feels like an easier entry point for me to introduce people to the game.
I speak only for myself and the reasons to not like the changes are valid and make sense. Also I have 3 boxes kill teams so I am pretty comfortable from that standpoint
The halrequins should be safe, as they were in the kill team Annual
Play Kill Team occasionally and when I do I still play 1st edition 🤷♂️
Same
I agree with most of your criticisms but I'm still a big fan of the new kill team. I've been playing since the 2018 edition and the 2021 edition was a big improvement for me.
On the topic of list building: this game has list building! For most teams, you build a list every time you play. Those decisions could be more interesting and how many you have to make varies greatly from team to team, but list building is there.
One thing I think they could do to impress theorycrafty/listbuildy type players is to make that part more fleshed out and nuanced. Give us a good reason to select basic warriors instead of bespoke specialists, for example, maybe with more selections for load out (this would reduce the number of specialists on the table and speed the game up, too). But having a full roster in just two boxes is fantastic compared to the previous edition.
As an avid Kill Team player, I can't be more excited. Every modifications announced prove that their listening their regular player base.
I'm sorry for 40k players who want to use their minis though. But Kill Teams is better by being its own thing.
Deadzone however rocks even harder
@@colinmack8655 Yeah, I'm going to get deeper into that now.
The compendium teams were a crutch GW used to add additional options when KT2 launched when they didn’t have additional bespoke teams. They weren’t good, and didn’t see much competitive play. I am sad we are both loosing Hive Fleet as well as Talons of the Emperor, but tbh it was for the best, let the old make way for the new.
I’m sure they will be releasing rules in white dwarf or for bespoke rules of those factions sometime in the future.
With them announcing all current and future team rules being free online now, I’m confident you can use something in place of another team. (heck, I have a friend who kitbashed some Tau into Nurgle infected Tau and ran them as a gellerpox team, do whatever you think is cool!)
I’m actually really excited for this new edition! GW so far hasn’t dropped the ball yet, crossing my fingers!
(Not saying you can’t be sad about losing compendium, or rules changes that are happening, everyone’s feelings are valid! Just that I’m actually looking forward to what’s to come!)
Those shapes for movement made the game unplayable, I gave up even trying after just reading the rules. I couldn’t visualize ranges while looking at the units. They couldn’t even be bothered to add logic to the shapes like square is 4 or hexagon is 6.
Ruler system is stupid f%*king thing ever they should go tile based and be done with it.
40k rules as is absolutely make the game unplayable. Wish they would do more PC games or even a 40k digital card in boxes so you can streamline it online
Yeah, big disappointment on the lack of updates for compendium teams. Definitely some of those things are not great. I still think the core system is great, and there's nothing stopping us from doing a little homebrew and/or proxying to make the rules and teams to our favor. Still, good update video, thank you.
The compendium was always a bandaid solution, they were never going to be permanent. Also, the rules look to be barely changing, so could prob just still play em anyway.
Its really a pity that i cannot use compendium teams in the next Edition. I have so many, and my friends also play a lot compendium.
To be honest, first i was hyped (New scions and vespids Look cool, terrain is fantastisch) but now im really disappointed.
I don't have any issue with them abandoning compendium teams - they haven't given them any updates in years now, they were never going to make it.
The only issue I have is that some of the teams on there don't have a bespoke version that can be used (for instance Tyranids)
@@retnuHDJ Don't have one yet. I can't imagine they'll do new Vespids just to ignore Tyranids forever.
@@BlommaBaumbart Yeah I'd be expecting one to come out eventually, but my point is it sucks for compendium team players (such as Tyranid players) until then as the compendium team won't be playable
Kill Team has become a way for GW to release new infantry units for 40k while getting to double-dip by also getting people to buy boxes for JUST Kill Team. For example, Kommandos with Snikrot is a core Ork list item, and also Exaction and Inquisitorial Agents get to fill out the Agents of the Imperium options.
I'm no GW stan, and I'm rarely jonesing to get the latest new thing, but I'm actually interested in the new changes! Especially solo play. List building was never big for me.
As someone who has never played kill team but would love to get into it, the new solo and cooperative modes are a freaking awesome edition. I for one will be visiting my local warhammer store asap to find out more
Well, I have a lot of nice models to play Stargrave now
I like the more streamlined rules, and I get how it can be easier to balance teams when they are more or less fixed. This in turn should allow them to more clearly define the play styles for each team.
However I do miss the variety and flexibility offered by KT2018 - I wish there was a game mode to allow for this (minus plasma spam). Having said that, the bespoke nature of the teams does allow them to make some really interesting and unique models.
Ah yes, BASIC MATH makes things less 'accessable'
I love to have a new Kill Team starting box if it's similar to Octarius. As for the rules, I hope it's good for the people that want to play it.
It will be pretty similar to Octsriud. Dense ruins custom made for the game. Two teams. Everything needed to play the game as intended. Probably a bit better as it doesn't seem like one of the teams need another box like Veteran Guard.
Same way I talk to my grown up kids 😂 'I'm not angry, I'm just disappointed...' 😅❤
Great parenting, they must love you!
You could at least pay for their therapy, you'd be a better parent than ever before
@@karolkrajewski755 you're the only one here who needs therapy, mate 🤡
Easy to agree about numbers over shapes and that they're looking into the cover/los aspect. Love solo and co-op modes as well. In terms of list building, they probably have some data that competitive play drives a lot of engagement with the game. While limiting the game to bespoke teams means they get to sell you specific teams, it seems way too limiting to do if they know they're likely going to cut off a large chunk of their player base. Would be cool to see a set of rules for list building for non-competitive kill team along side the bespoke teams that are green lit and balanced for comp.
I think of a turn as each time I activate a unit. A turning point is a full round of both players having activated all units
Turning point makes it feel more dramatic which is probably what GW wanted.
Indeed. A "turn" and a "turning point" are not the same. A "round" and a "turning point" are pretty much the same. (Do we know if Uncle Atom objects to big 40k's use of "battle round" instead of "turn".)
I am very positive about the changes, what I have learnt since actually playing miniature war games is that while list building can be fun when you're alone and can't play a game, the main enjoyment I get from the hobby is rolling dice and laughing with my opponent at the silly and ridiculous things that happen. So the fact it's going co op is just fantastic. I share your frustration with the ploys, but I LOVE tactical ploys, it is essentially heroic actions from MESBG, which I love. So I hope they ditch strat ploys. Also, I play the murder clowns (Void Dancers) and I can't stand the bean counting you need to do to fully utilise their main army ability so I would be happy to say good bye to all those mechanisms, just make it a baked in ability or forget it
GW: Let's go-to the brewery and update the rules.
Gw Employee: should I bring a note book?
Gw: nahh we'll use the napkins.
I might be late to reply but I still want to express my disappointment when I discovered, returning from a long slumber that lasted all second edition, that my farsight enclave hunter cadre I was planning to finish painting got erased from the game. I don't play big 40k so I guess those models will never see the light of day. Another element I miss are the selectable keywords, like septs. I really love the solo-coop idea.
having custom warband rules lets you use the models you already have, and that's the last thing GW wants, they want you to buy more miniatures
Every company wants you to buy more of their shit. Yes it's greedy, but it's also not like the people who throw money at GW weren't going to spend a fuckton more.
A current kill team is cheaper than before to start from scratch, the gameplay is far better and far more mentally stimulating, and a lot of list building choice is an illusion so it's not like that much has been lost.
F that noise! Print models. Play OPR -> Have more time and money for other games!
Personally pumped for this new edition, solo AND co-op play along with dropping the "shapes" for actual inches. Both new KT squads look sick af
Since I’m an optimist, I’m glad I never painted the shape ruler. I hated those darn shapes.
I agree about the loss of compendium teams, a friend of mine specifically bought a box of plague marines to play the compendium team specifically for a more streamlined experience. The only thing is, I think its a bit late. Most compendium teams have been abandoned and barely playable for a good while now.
Proxy the Plague Marines as Nurgle Legionaries in the future. Easy mode.
Most of the changes seem to tighten up the game. Sure, it's a shame about compendium teams but the gap between "compendium" and "bespoke" teams was crippling. My first game was GK compendium versus Hunter Clade and it was a complete wash.
In this case I'll say out with the old. I have enjoyed the complexity of bespoke teams more than list building with many choices of which only a few are correct.
Its funny you say that because I feel like I could still play kt21 for another 3 years not because the new edition is crap but because the game isn't "solved" yet.
I would be fully on board if all the factions had bespoke team. That's the problem for me not the move away from compendium to bespoked
@@kjs5932This is the weirdest part of the game. So many factions got two or more bespoke teams and some got none. Gallowdark not getting a Tyranid team is peak weird.
Kill Team was actually my introduction to Warhammer and skirmish games, period. The rules felt both simple to learn, but had a lot of these... complex nuances for anyone who actually wanted to really go balls deep.
My first team is an Ecclesiarchy team... And they suck in just about every board that isn't Gallowdark lol. The compendium teams outside Deathguard and to an extent Emperor's Talons are pretty much ass, but it would have been cool to see some kind of update for them. While them getting rotated out does nothing to change the competitive landscape, I would have at least like ld an update that would have made compendium teams an actual viable option if you wanted to get serious with the game...
I also wouldnt be surprised if even veteran guardsmen and ork kommandoes and a few of the early bespoke teams get rotated out with every passing competitive season the way sets in MtG rotate out of standard.
I'm disappointed that they are removing the compendium. Including basic troop boxes, which are easily available, was a good way to get 40K players into Kill Team. Since the rules seem to be similar, we may be able to translate Compendium to the new edition. Or I can play Kill Team 2018. Or I can use the 7th edition Kill Team rules with 10th edition 40K. Oh the heresy.
The thing is, KT doesn't need to go out of its way to encourage 40k players to start now. That was the case when KT was new and they knew the only way to get enough players was to say "hey here's a smaller scale alternative to 40k and you can use your existing models!"
I suspect it will be possible to convert Compendium teams to the current ruleset, but it doesn't change that Compendium teams are over-complicated, which goes against the design philosophy of KT today. The majority are just not fun to play with or against because of the amount of team-exclusive rules and micro-managed customisation that your opponent needs to keep track of.
Compendium teams were way less accessible than bespoke teams unless you happen to already own the stuff. Most of them required 2 boxes minimum, and up to 4 boxes if you wanted all the options.
I know people were nervous about the potential changes to the previous KT, which was near perfect to many (barring cover rules, etc). But everything I hear of KT 2024 seems right up my alley. I'm all for simplifying and streamlining, and the inclusion of solo/coop rules is exciting! It seems this is one of the "good" GW games, much like Warcry and Underworlds.
they said you could download the new data cards so you could tray out new teams before spending the money so you would be able to use your collections of models.
I'm SUPER hyped for the co-op and solo mode. Overall, as a WH40k newbie I'm very excited about this edition.
It's been rumored GW is trying to keep sales of each game/line separate from the others to help accounting... I guess. That's one of the (again rumored) reasons Beasts of Chaos were removed from Age of Sigmar as they'll be fully supported in The Old World. Could this move to only supporting bespoke Kill Teams be due to this to?
GW has been doing this for decades though. It's said to be the reason why Warhammer Quest was discontinued.
Just started learning KT. The shapes actually make a lot of sense in context of moving over terrain, and despite my initial moaning, I don't dislike the system. My hope is that reverting back to inches will make it more intuitive, but breaking distances down into specific increments was not a bad idea in my opinion. Other games like Star Wars Legion used measuring widgets that were unique to the system, and not many people (that I know at least) complained about it.
Equipment points don't bother me at all, but maybe only 4 pieces will really matter in any game, so perhaps it's not a loss.
Solo/Co-op I LOVE though. I am looking forward to giving that a shot.
Only thing that really has me worried is if they change team composition enough to render my current builds useless. I'd hate to feel the "need" to buy a new kit again. On the bright side, if I really dislike the new edition, I'm sure I will be able to find some of the current books for cheap. I've been studying the "Lite" rules and Wahapedia.
Especially since equipment is now team-wide buffs for the most part.
Honestly not sure how I feel about the loss of the compendium. On one hand, it's a real shame, but on the other, did anyone ever really use it at all? I thought the general consensus was that the bespoke teams were so much better that people just used that instead. So I kinda get why they don't wanna update the compendium rules, after all, why spend development time on something that very few people use anyway.
It allowed 40K players to get into the game. I play Tyranids and just got shafted.
I'm happy to see the focus on it being its own game, rather than a bonus game you can play with minis you might already have from another game. Will hopefully allow for a tighter more balanced design. List building is just another barrier to getting started playing for us.
Removing pts from equipment? That worked so well in 40k they had to split datasheets to try to balance things.
Thats not the main reason 40k splits datasheets. They're split to give the different loadouts different abilities.
If the purpose was to balance equipment way more datasheets would be split.
@@TemporalElpis Abilities could easily have been tied to the weapons in the current system, we see it in GSC.
If you really want to argue what the reason behind splitting data sheets, it was probably to boost the number of data sheets and hide how many units are being cut. Technically T'au only lost like two units if you compare Index to Codex, but comparison ignores things like the Crisis Suits becoming 3 sheets. Crisis Suits were also one of the best examples of why 'free wargear' doesn't work.
So excited for some streamlined rules, when I first became interested in Killteam the volume of rules and lack of structure was a huge turrnoff for me. Seeing these new rules and hearing your concerns though it does have me thinking about my 40k armies that dont have support now-- I love my Orks but will there ever be support for my weirder ones?
GW: We are going to use Kill Team (alongside Combat Patrol) as an on ramp for larger 40K games to get players on board simply and move them up to full armies.
Me: So, the Kill Team rules will be similar to the 40K rules?
GW: No
Me: So you can custom build your team to represent different 40K units?
GW: Ummm... No.
Me: So you can use 40K minis in KT and KT minis in 40K.
GW: ...... Hmmmm. No.
Well we got a better game out of it so they may be cooking
All the KT minis can be used in 40k.
@@HB2K-h8m I'm not sure how it is in 40k, but in AoS warcry bands are quite good and in some armies they're a staple, hoping we get something similar in 40k
Nearly all KT can be used in 40k, so yeah? Custom built KTs were too imbalanced and having similar rules to 40k resulted in worse gameplay. Moving on to specialized ruleset and new model each season was right decision
Why can't we just treat it as a fun skirmish game and not some gateway to bighammer 😔 I think boarding actions and combat patrol is the real gateway to bighammer
KT18 was my first skirmish wargame and my intro to playing 40k. I have a ton of great memories playing it with friends. KT21 is absolutely a better game though and ive had even more fun with it than the prior edition. Yes it was more complicated at first but with a good community and actually playing the game i found that my concerns about it didnt come true and the rules were straightforward enough to facilitate fast but deep gameplay.
I finally feel like a grumbling grognard, ive loved this edition so much and really don't want it to swing back in the direction of the previous.
Gonna hard disagree with Adam on listbuilding and ploys. Teams and balance feel alot tighter with more set lists and actually makes lists smal enough to build and paint with my limited time, and ploys and the cp economy adds both interesting decision making and army flavor that otherwise wouldnt make sense being confined to a single datasheet.
I love KT, this new edition is trimming the fat of stuff I didn’t like. I’m not gonna miss DEF dice. Now hopefully they made the melee combat better too.
Hopefully, updated rules means that you can play with the old rules and that they focused on balancing and giving rule updates to the bespoke ones
Looks at my pile of 300 beasts of chaos AoS army and shrugs in sympathy.
I just purchased the "compendium". Not going to be held to only GW teams. If I want to build a custom team, I'm going to do it.
That's MINDblowing they don't let you make your own killteams this time.
I got into kill team because of your enthusiasm for 1st edition. I dutifully got the terrain for the T’au/Space Wolf version, then the new edition came and I was sad I couldn’t play my necrons as I wanted to.
I’m glad they’ve got rid of distance symbols, as that really put me off playing.
I built myself a version of the Necron kill team, converting the apprentek as I didn’t want to pay for even more immortals, with an upgrade sprue, so stuck with minis I already owned
Every time I look into Killteam, I keep going back to Deadzone. There are so many options for sci-fi skirmish now, my next will be Five Parsecs. Killteam doesn't seem to give you much opportunity to make a bespoke warband with their own story. When the next edition is out in the wild, I'll check it out, but.ifnit isn't staggeringly different than it's current form, it will be another pass for me.
I feel there a lot of good changes like getting rid fo the shapes was definetly the right move.
In thecaes of the compenbdium it really depends which one. If its getting rid of the base one eeeehhhhh, I feel it may impact solo/co-op more because there's things I want to use as NPO's such as Poxwalkers and Generic Guard/GSC for a true Darktide feeling. If they're getting rid of the Annual 2022 compendium teams then I feel thats a big misstep.
The issue is that KT is supported and has a following but it's still a very small following and to get rid of KT's for competitive balence is just going to make it harder to sell the game. Even though it's trying hard to be it's own standout skirmish game it still has the stigma of being "gateway 40k" and it's going to be a hard sell to get folks involved if I tell them they can only play certain models/factions.
A prime example is my partner. She's fallen in love with Thousand Sons and doesn't want to play other armies. If they get rid of the Warpcoven or don't re-introduce them to KT-2E then she won't play it's as simple as that. I have a feeling most folk who own model collections will feel that same way.
I like the changes being laid out are good and I hope we quickly see the re-introduction of mutiple kill-zones such as the Gallowdark and such as I really want to give my Nemesis Claw a throrough go into this new edition but it will be hard to play if my freinds who don't own specific KT's can't get involved with the factions they love.
pretty much explains why I play OPR
If you want to list build in a skirmish game, I hear great things about the update to boarding action.
500 points doesn’t seem like “skirmish” to me. Thanks for watching!
Not playing a list that I want was the reason why I didn't pick up the 2nd ed rule for Kill Team. Looks like I won't be playing the new one either.
I'm actually looking forward to the new edition. I still consider myself new to warhammer and I tried the last edition. It was too confusion with cover and the symbols, but I still thought it had potential. I think they're addressing those core issue, and as Adam said making it accessable. Regardng the model box sets, I don't mind too much because I can intergrate those models into my larger armies for 40k - and they always seem to have unique figures so they look cooler when intergrate into my larger armies. I'm willing to give the game a second shot this time around. I hope they actually fixed things instead and not in the reverse direction. Thanks for the video Adam!
I bought into the first kill team just in time for it to become obsolete. I like the terrain in the box set but I’m done with GW as a rule writer. I love the lore having read a lot of black library stuff in the last year it’s just a shame the game doesn’t reflect the overall narrative. I still like the miniatures when I can get them at a discounted price. So what am I going to do. Well I’m just going to play chain of command with 40k minis. With a few house rules for flavour.
I think the only new part I am NOT very excited about is the loss of Compendium armies. That said, myself and most people in my gaming group run "bespoke" teams almost always. (i have an Intercession squad i was running for 2 reasons: to learn the game on a team with less variety, and to show off some Fabulous Marines. I sort of retired them for more standard teams)
Moving away from that, everything else has me impatiently waiting for October! GREAT terrain. More streamlined Rules. Solo Play!!! Co-op play!!!!
I have found, the number one thing that has helped when getting new people to try Miniature games is when there is a form of Co-op playing available. There is a *HUGE* group of people out there that are hardcore board game gamers, and they even play a lot of board games with miniatures now. I have so many miniature games i have purchased, assembled, and painted for the one purpose of trying to intro them to the game. Co-op play is pretty common in so many board games, and you get to put any sort of competitiveness on the shelf, and work together. I feel like this is actually a bigger deal in making Kill team a "Gateway" tabletop miniature game, than we might realize.
Who knows - Co-op mode might be a snore-fest, but if not, thumbs up. My (very long) journey in the hobby has always had a focus on bringing more people into it, and being more inclusive. Co-op play really does open some doors. ALL of us should always be looking to make the hobby world a larger place!
Thanks for another great video! ❤
It sounds like you didn’t like the second edition which is a shame because imo it is GWs best game. Los rules are hard at first but clear if you play a lot. In fact the complex line of sight rules are one of the best points of the game. But what I also like about it is how well balanced it is and how well it plays when trying to play competitively which most gw games function better narratively. And for balance sake the compendium teams have to go.
For someone who's trying to promote tabletop, he really sh!ts on GW, even when they deserve credit. I love KT21 and im proud to admit it
In my opinion, Warcry is their best game - and it has amazing list building Compendium options AND the ability to use bespoke lists, too. Thanks for watching!
@@procrastibate yeah, he's really salty about not being able to use old minis, it's so childish. Also really doesn't seem to like any kind of intellectually stimulating rules.
The raving about warcry as above is honestly really sad. It's not a bad game and has lots of potential, but it needs a lot of work and love. Hence why it isn't doing anywhere near as well as kt21.
@@tabletopminions Part of the reason I have trouble getting into Warcry as a new player, though, is the thought that my bespoke one-box warband is already at a disadvantage against people with existing collections or who are buying into larger AoS and can beat me at the list-building stage. I got my butt kicked at the two Kill Team events I've been to, but at least it wasn't because my opponents spent more on their models.
My friends and I are swapping to mordheim. The community is still alive, the rules are free online, and GW can’t ruin a game they discontinued (you could also do this with 1st edition KT, but Mordheim just had more appeal)
I can see why they got rid of list building: It's hard to balance, especially in something as swingy as a skirmish game.
I also perfectly understand being upset over it. Using the toys you already have and slightly tweaking it as needed is a cool thing.
I like how Spearhead has handled it, where they're using selected units from the box sets they've released in the past, which also happen to be many of the units that people will will just happen to already have if they have that army. You loose the creativity, but you gain people already having collected the models for their armies. In just my sporadic collecting of "what do I find cool?" or "what do I need for D&D this month?" I've collected within 4-12 models of like 4 spearheads.
It's not that hard to balance though. I've been playing several skirmish games that have deep list building and customization and have been very balanced. If you've not tried Trench Crusade you're missing out. GW just doesn't bother playtesting and doesn't care to do so. If they release something that's an unbalanced mess meta chasers flock to get it, if they release something balanced and cool they get a nice chunk of change, and if they release something bad and that nobody wants they just make it OP for a little (see the space marine desolation squad). They have little incentive to get it right and don't care to fix it.
FYI. Games workshop made Warhammer Quest. A solo/co-op game.
True, but it’s a dungeon crawler not a wargame, and that’s the category he meant to have in focus I think. Otherwise there’s Space Hulk, Darktide, etc.
There's always the option to just keep playing the current edition. I understand people feel inclined to be using the most up to date version. But to anyone getting annoyed by GW changes again. It's your game with plastic soldiers. Just use which ever ruleset/edition you prefer.
How does a new player get into Kill Team 2018? I assume they might be able to buy the book used on eBay or something? Thanks for watching!
@@tabletopminionsIf they are 40k players, there's a good chance a friend of a friend already got it.
If they are totally new, the current (and upcoming) version is *much* cheaper to start with. (And better.)
@@tabletopminionsthat's generally how a new player would get into an OOP product, yes. 😅
The statement "use whatever you prefer" kinda implies that this comment was not aimed at new players.
GW needs to start heavily pivoting and being competitive with these smaller games without milking the living shit out of it for money. Good luck.
Personally, the thing I really enjoy about kill team is the stealth part of it. The whole conceal/engage orders stopped you from being alpha struck turn 1. It allowed you to position models effectively. But I do think KT 2018 was a better game.
Solo and Co-Op modes were in Killteam 1st edition,
And was axed when moved to the new “upgraded” edition
Really enjoyed KT 2018. Didn't really play KT 2021 due it moving to the format where the Kill Teams are "pre-made" and had to be bought as separate boxes. Moreover some of weapons were so unique they couldn't be used in other games. Started looking into building some simple Kill Teams recently in line with the KT 2021 Compendium. Now I hear that those lists will be voided again, and I really can only use the pre-built boxes, I will probably give this whole addition a pass as well. Too bad, I really liked the co-op idea. Anyway, will probably start making lists based on One Page Rules Firefight. Maybe if I ever want to play co-op I'll use Space Station Zero's AI rules. :-)
Don’t forget deadzone is a thing too.
The 2021 version is simply a much better game. Specialized kits allow for much better balance, new special weapons and cool rules and still allow for huge customization. For example look at Legionaries or Votann teams. Compendium teams sucked compared to the dedicated ones and were never worth playing if you like deep tactical gameplay.
@@psz5515 I can't agree with you. KT21 is missing everything that made kt18 special. You have fixed team size, almost fixed loadout, you need to buy special boxes to play and the rules are bloated. And it's supper hard to make custom narative missions unlike in kt18 or in GFF from OPR.
One thing that i agree with is that it's more balanced than kt18. But it could be fixed if the company wanted make a good game. And also... GFF is better balanced than kt21 and it doesn't have the same problems.
So glad they got rid of the shapes. I like crunchy rules though. Then again I’m an old gamer. I like lots of different cover rules and stuff.
Hated the group activation concept in the last edition too
I have a lazy Custodes compendium kill team since you just need to roll out 4 minis, it was perfect for teaching the basics of the game and they had a decent enough chance of winning. Now I've got 4 custodes that don't fit into any of my collections.
oh no, how will you survive this burden 😢
@@imthelizardking I get what he's saying tho. I started my SoB KT at the beginning of the year, I'm just about done with the paint, and this new edition will render them completely obsolete. I got 15 models total, a SoB squad of 10 and 4 repentias plus the repentia superior. It sucks that I wont be able to play them as soon as KT24 comes out. I got the Kommandos to get more options for KT21, but I guess thats all I'll be playing on the new edition.
I know we can always play KT21, regardless, but I was looking forward to seeing how compendium KTs would be a part of the new edition and now they most likely wont be.
It just sucks.
There are things I like, solo/co-op. But I'm with you on the frustration of the removal of the compendium lists. I never played one but I was thinking about it.
I'm also not wild about the removal of options. That's never a good thing.
Also now I have to worry that the Intercessor Kill Team I've been working on may go away
The hobby is WARGAMING - not being ripped off by a bloated company that relentlessly always puts profits first. Folks need to break their addiction & get into better things done by independents, that allow for some creativity ….
No one is forcing you to buy the new rules
@@chuckocenasek5651 No one could - but not the point
Yes. Down with the measuring shapes! If they made sense I would be fine with them. Circle = 1, line = 2, Triangle = 3, Square = 4, etc,, but no, that is not how the shapes worked.
Purely bespoke groups makes it easier to balance, reduces jank, and also encourages people to spend money. I think the reality is that GW doesn't make games for "hobbyists" anymore. Good thing there's a robust indisphere for that.
I don't really get this. If you want to proxy other units with warhams model its tournament legal as long as it looks good and preserves the bases/roughly the silhouettes. You've had youtube personalities taking the 'nurgle' team of necrons for example. And you're always free to do whatever you want at home, I'll confess I played some paper standies from time to time. Don't see how this is a problem. "Oh I can only use guardsmen" Brother you can proxy six to eight teams with 'just guardsmen' and have it look good. Take your pick maybe expand the imagination a touch.
I agree. I used to enjoy the way GW used to encourage kit-bashes and conversions for the original Killteam in 4th edition, and how to build your own terrain. These days its just pushing more products so your table is just like everyone else's with little to no personality.
@@MushieNino Exactly. I have to wonder how much the people who say you can't proxy/convert anymore actually play the game. Anecdotally I have a heavily proxied/converted hunter clade team that I've had no problem playing, even at big tourneys. It sucks that the official material doesn't encourage it like it used to, but you absolutely can still do it
@@MushieNino bingo. Kill Team 21 has always been focused on these very strictly defined teams with limited list building or sometimes none. The hobby side has been very healthy and the community is very receptive to kitbashed teams as long as they are readable as what they're standing in for and proper base sizes etc. Playing compendium teams, besides a notable few (custodes with a sister and custodian team, tyranids, double scion team IG stand out to me) has been a bad idea even for beer and pretzels kill team with how bad a lot of them are. The way kill team is you're not going to have a good time if you brought compendium necrons against Kommandos. This video reeks of someone who doesn't really play the game dooming. I will miss a few compendium teams but otherwise it was something we all expected would be part of the new edition for a while.
I'm excited for the new edition, especially the solo mode, but I do want clarity on which bespoke Kill Teams aren't making the cut.
You do realize that new players won't have an existing army to make a list from 😐 Its a lot cheaper to just buy a box of a faction you want than to buy multiple boxes just for one team
Options are always nice though. Like if you have some figures of the main games to mix in or try it out thats a good option. Even buying single miniatures of a squad secondhand would be an option here.
But with kt18 you can make a cool and effective list with just 1 box. I did it with mark 3 marines.
As someone who tried and eventually loved the new version's depth, I’m actually very happy with the coming edition