@@ukusapatriot327 he mentioned online that he did a tour at the 22nd SAS, the reservist of the Regiment and was assigned to the military adviser team operating during the Northern Irish troubles. Later on went to Sandhurst and became a Royal Engineers officer. Was part of the mine clearance effort in the gulf War when Saddam was chased out of Kuwait.
The fact that Alan Bates is now a Sir and Paula V handed back her honor, to me says it all. The police MUST investigate because a lot of people are guilty of a miscarriage of justice.
She is still enjoying the Bonus Money paid to her while the Postmasters never got back the Money PostOffice stole from them and swelled the Bonus for top Executives
I believe that the granting of the knighthood is yet another sinister ploy by the establishment to further absolve them of any responsibility for what has happened, by ostensibly aligning themselves with the sub postmasters.
Good point, well made. Great interview. There is clearly now sufficient prima facie evidence for police to begin investigating a number of people who have given evidence at the inquiry. How long must justice be delayed whilst inquiries such as this are conducted by people, KCs for example, paid by the hour?
Mr Henderson & Mr Warmington both deserve a public acknowledgement of their integrity, tenacity and BRAVERY in helping to uncover all this, I doubt anyone would argue against knighthoods, but at the very least an OBE which is for "Distinguished regional or county-wide role in any field, through achievement or service to the community including notable practitioners known nationally." They certainly tick the OBE box as 'noble practitioners known nationally'!! Sending much admiration and respect to them both from Oz!
@@alanfrost4661That is not entirely true. There are many who are given honours they deserve, even though others are questionable. This year there were many who deserved to be honoured - the most outstanding honour was that given to Alan Bates. Well done Sir Alan!
And compensation for the many years when their life was blighted by a set of people more interested in a cover up and self-protection. This must serve as a lesson for all company boards that the truth must not always be hidden, especially when innocent people are being hurt. Imagine if this happened to you!
I would like to thank the two gentlemen. From the start, I didn't understand why the auditors did not pick up transactional errors from the IT system. This testimony makes the situation clear. Two heroes.
It seems that some of the PO "auditors" had no formal training, and they were just ticking boxes on templates, ie: "is the back door open",. The PO auditors were not forensic auditors.
The Post Office should have been on the look out for problems with any system sold them by Fujitsu. In my professional career, I had many dealings with ICL, whom Fujitsu later acquired, and rarely did ICL commercially release any software free of "undocumented features", many of them serious. Anyway, a great interview. There is clearly now sufficient prima facie evidence for police to begin investigating a number of people who have given evidence at the inquiry. How long must justice be delayed whilst inquiries such as this are conducted by people, KCs for example, paid by the hour?
Isn't it amazing? The people on the right side of this scandal have normal, clear recall of important matters, while those on the wrong side can barely remember anything.
What a contrast between these two gentlemen and the evasive, lying, uncaring, self serving parade of bureaucrats who were the management and lawyers of the Post Office.
But would they be as truthful if they were in that position? We can all pontificate from the sofa until the questions are ones we have to answer. Jail time for these liars and deceivers.
@@mojo6098 Yes, there is some truth in that, those people who laid into me for not wearing a mask probably fool themselves into thinking they would have joined the French Resistance...
The Public Enquiry has put a lot of information in the public domain which will be great assistance to any Police investigations. T he PO behaved disgracefully, but it's naive to think other large organisations don't have the same mentality and try to bury bad news and wrong doing.
I agree. There is clearly now sufficient prima facie evidence for police to begin investigating a number of people who have given evidence at the inquiry. How long must justice be delayed whilst inquiries such as this are conducted by people, KCs for example, paid by the hour?
I believe that the police are watching the inquiry and have 80 officers around the country working on an investigation. Also, the House of Lords is pushing HARD for prosecutions, but they acknowledge that this must wait until the inquiry concludes. After all, prosecuting without all the facts is how this started.
We can take a little joy from knowing g that Vennels and all her co conspirators are having night after night of no sleep and must be afraid to walk the streets.
Definitely, she was in charge when this was going on, it's obvious to anyone that these people are lying and have tried to cover it up for as long as possible, her and the rest of the guilty have to be locked up, my God they locked up innocent people so the guilty have to go to prison.
@@michaelmcginley7930Lawyers go to jail ? Will never happen, the Law Society has to be the most corrupt organisation known to man, they look out for each other because they all know that under the facade they’re all as bent as the next lawyer.
Yes you’re right but,as the police are politicised by this government and the new labour government by bliar who brought this scandal to start with I think bias will win out and no one will face proper justice ,maybe a true independent police investigation will be needed ,interpol it’s that serious
I have been watching the hearings on a daily basis and these two gentlemen were a breath of fresh air, whereas PO staff could "not recall" or "remember" they remembered everything. Susan Crichton was one of the few PO staff who seemed to be truthful, yet, everyone else was trying to blame her, their statements backed her up and made liars of others. A lot of of people will now start to worry thinking they will face consequences for their actions, about time. Thankyou Ron and Ian.
@@johnlawrence7386 I'm guessing thats the defence strategy - that it's better to be considered terminally stupid or incompetent rather than criminally liable.
And now, as if to rub salt into the wounds, many water company management appear to feel that, because of their mis-management and failure to invest in improved infrastructure over the years, their customers should now pay increased bills to put it all right. It's a typical "we made the mistake, but *you'll* have to pay for it" . Plus of course in the meantime, the shareholders still continue to receive their payouts.......
@@Brian-om2hhalso the fact they borrowed billions to buy it then offloaded it onto the water company then sold it, fraud and pillaging the public purse, the executives should go to jail and shareholders repay the business imo
Mr Henderson & Mr Warmington thank you gentlemen for your work & sadly more to do, it needs to be done evil must not prevail ,my belief is that it was all about money particularly the bonuses & scandal may have meant Vennells & others would lose the high salaries
How is it possible that there 2 gentlemen can have a completely functioning memory, when all those other clowns that we have listened to are all suffering from extensive amnesia.
Thank you Mr Warmington and Mr Henderson - as well as Sir Alan, of course. Thank you so much for all your courage, and hard work, and for standing up against those appalling, despicable bullies in the Post Office. Their deceit, and callous and agggressive tactics need to be called out, and they ALL need to be punished for what they did to those poor people.
This testimony is becoming more and more revealing, and the noose is becoming tighter and tighter for POL senior executives and their prosecuting legal team.
It’s about time the horrible people get ready for jail and the postmasters need medals for standing up to the disgusting things they have endured. THIS IS A NATIONAL BLIGHT FOR THE UK!
When I watched their testimony for the enquiry yesterday it was very clear they had been threatened with litigation by the post office. if the PO was prepared to spend £300,000 to destroy Lee Castleton. What would they have spent to destroy these two men given half the chance
The argument from some within POL that comes up at the inquiry is "protecting the brand". To a lot of people that would mean coming clean and admitting the mistakes and pursuing justice for the incorrectly convicted. They decided to take the opposite tactic and cover up perhaps one mistake and let it snowball.
The fact that threats were made shows that individuals are responsible for this disgrace, people make threats not corporations so those people should be accountable.
A judge can only give judgement on the evidence put before them. It is up to _those presenting the evidence_ to ensure that it is correct, and it is those people who MUST suffer the consequences of presenting false evidence.
The judges and jury of criminal cases based their verdict on the evidence given. The people who gave false evidence and failed to disclose are the one who should face charges for perjury They broke the law
As far as I understand it the only real accusation one might aim at the judges involved would concern a level of 'computer says no'-style naivety. But that's about all. In fairness, *It was a tech savvy judge who signalled the big turn around for the SubPostmasters* - Judge Fraser. His damning judgement was key, eg: “There were two specific matters where [Van den Bogerd] did not give me frank evidence, and sought to obfuscate matters, and mislead me,” POL, their KC's, lawyers etc. did everything in their power to have him removed from the case. They nearly succeeded, too. These KC's were grilled about their actions at the enquiry last week. The pompous assery was off the charts. fwiw....
@@Kevin-mx1vi But there was no "evidence". There was NO PROOF presented that they stole any money. They didn't steal anything so how could there have been credible proof? Just a "computer says yes" mentality. The "computer says it so it must be true" approach. Anyone seeing the £20,000 a day electricity bills for a small flat, according to their "smart meter" knows this to be untrue. Anyone working regularly with computerised programmes knows this to be untrue. This is NOT evidence. This is NOT proof. Any JUDGE should have known this. 😢
Ironically if the Post Office had come clean at a very early stage, admitted they made a mistake, compensated victims fairly and shown transparency in what they would do to ensure it never happened again, the public by and large would have forgiven them and their brand wouldn’t be destroyed at all. Now it seems like their brand is forever tainted.
Responsibility for Horizon software errors is with Fujitsu/ICL until the Post Office decided to accept that software as fit for purpose. So failure to specify requirements and thoroughly test against them is a classic IT project failure. Had Fujitsu been an ethical enterprise they would have ensured that the testing was sufficient and complete. Post Office audit should have been involved to sign off the testing plan and results since financial data is processed.
Vennels sobbing when forced to admit her faults. She should be given a real reason to sob when she is made to return the huge salary and benefits. The real victims are still out suffering.
@@ianmclachlan7476 and not just because she deserves to be punished, but they must send a message to all those others that similarly abuse power - Fred Goodwin...etc list goes on
These are the type of Men who stand up to the injustices of this world and make it a better place. Respect. Thank you Sirs. Hope those responsible will pay for their crimes. Have made so many people suffer.
@@adrianrose7703 fair enough. but to have a colossus of a Govt. organization, squaring upto you, threatening you and acting maliciously against you - yet you remaining steadfast to the point of being removed from the line of duty by the same colossus; doesn't that count for anything? Especially when SecondSight could have walked away, simply stating their inability to continue the case for lack of co-operation on part of stakeholders, keeping PO happy.
As a victim I feel that every one points the finger at the Post Office management, but it was the politicians and the senior civil service who have assidulously kept their names and actions out of the public arena. Vennells was only obeying the orders she was given by her principles and they are using her as a shield, a scapegoat to avoid any accountability. Every single political party knew and approved of what the Post Office were doing. Their senior people are closely linked to either the lawyers prosecuting the postmasters, or Fujitsu and yet none of them has even been interviewed by the inquiry. The establishment has closed ranks to protect itself and no one even appears to have noticed.
Sorry but these guys are anything but "bean counters". That's a reductive and somewhat crude term. They have been involved in some fascinating criminal and civil cases. What's rare is that they can lead from the front by directing complex investigations as well as graft their way through copious information and ( in particular Ian) can perform detailed IT forensics analysis to a very advanced level. This is intriguing work. They aren't preparing accounts!
My mother ran a sub post office in Wales for seventeen years. One week she actually managed to balance her books. The Post Office sent her a congratulations card! She'd have gone to jail if she'd still been working when they introduced this software. As a former tester, I don't understand why they got away with arguing that their software is infallible. There's no such thing.
Exactly why are the release notes not being included in evidence? How did this get in to production via change management without a test exit report? I suspect that the judiciary doesn’t know what questions to ask.
Best practice is for Audit to review and sign off the test plan and test report whenever financial data is processed in an application. Post Office audit should have done that in the core application of Post Office counters business. Post Office IT management should not have accepted the Horizon software application for business operations without the sufficient and complete test plan and report. That's fundamental application life cycle management. Further the post office business should have completed user acceptance testing using the migrated data so that both application and data migration were validated as fit for business purposes. Fundamental. Nonfunctional requirements not only include performance and also record management so that there is a full audit log of financial data and key business entities. Reliability matters.
These two gentlemen, both quiet and unassuming, are proof that not all heroes wear capes. Their relief at finally being able to testify as to what they discovered at the Post Office was palpable. After years of being shackled by NDAs, knowing that people had died, gone to prison or been bankrupted, this must have been a very sweet moment for them both.
It's a great pity that Mrs Vennells wasn't scheduled to appear at the enquiry after Messrs Henderson and Warmington isn't it? That WOULD have made it interesting wouldn't it?
But then they would have had chance to rehearse and prepare, this way they have been exposed to the highest degree and in some cases perjured themselves beyond reasonable doubt.
Let's see justice! The police must investigate. Those at the top seemed to do little work and had little memories of it, whilst, the highly conscientious sub postmasters, by contrast, work/ed extremely hard supporting and providing for their local communities. Those that lied, deceived defrauded and extorted must be investigated. Why were such characters ever employed and given so much power?
I cannot bare to watch Paula Vennells and all the other liars...these two gentlemen are exposing the truth once and for all. I just hope at the end of the enquiry the guilty will go to prison and their bonuses and pensions paid back to the innocent 'little people '.
The expression the accountants were looking for, regarding Paula Vennells, is “cognitive dissonance,” the state of having inconsistent thoughts, beliefs, or attitudes at the same time.
Tell me... Were ITV - and the rest of the media - quite so morally outraged, and high and mighty, a decade ago ? When it actually would have made a material difference...
Private Eye and Computer Weekly certainly were. I don't think it had crossed over to general consciousness 10 years ago. The first time it really hit the mainstream was BBC Panorama in 2015. Yes someone should have picked up on it before then but don't forget how powerful the PO was back then and how determined they were to throw huge sums of money at lawyers to suppress it.
@@fgrsimon Or... It didn't cross over into public consciousness, because the MSM wasn't doing its job. And was spineless in the face of threats. Or, it WAS doing its job, which is to never rock the political boat.
@@barryscott6222it was definitely doing its job - editorial bias has always been problem. The msm is owned by billionaires and they will not abide attention towards the types of games they also play
Being a CEO is all about brand, marketing and PR. It has little to do with technical detail. So I am not surprised by Paula's appalling lack of appreciation and understanding of this whole saga; until it was too late! She must be held accountable for this, but will likely not be.
It's time for the Old Bailey and the full force of the Law brought to bare.... Long jail sentences must follow. Starmer will make sure it won't happen 😮😢😮😢😮😢
"Starmer will make sure it won't happen" Maybe the fact that Starmer was DPP and head of the CPS between 2008 and 2013 and was knighted in 2014 for his work in the CPS is going to hinder him.
when are the police going to arrest these people that ruined those lives they should be in a court in the dock they have proof so get on and arrest them
After the enquiry, I should think. I bet those at the top of the PO chain and several lawyers from the independent law firms brought in to help the PO are having sleepless nights and so they should!
I am hoping that the seemingly lack of police action is because they are waiting for the hearings to end and the conclusions to be published. I then hope that they will immediately arrest Vennells and all other personnel that were complicit in this despicable cover-up. If they do not, then there is something very, very wrong with the laws of this country. I also think that Fujitsu should be ideally kicked out of the country for their part in the scandal. I remind everyone that Fujitsu are also responsible for the debacle of the personal government issued 'My Number' card in Japan.
Well done to these Gentlemen it is lovely to know their is honest people left in the world a big thankyou to you both It all comes out in the wash Paula Vennells and her Covent need to go to prison as soon as possible
He hits the nail on the head at 4:36. The Post Office must have known that the spike in problems was due to the new system being put in place, not hundreds of sub-postmasters suddenly deciding to “go rogue”.
They keep saying "faulty Horizon system". It wasn't faulty. For the Post Office, it did exactly what was required of it. It enabled the Post Office, via Fujitsu, to create false deficits in the accounts. This enabled the Post Office to threaten the subpostmasters with prison, unless they made up the losses.
Whenever I see the real people from this, I can't stop welling up. I have no skin in this game but it feels so personal. How this plays out is surely a representation of how we are, as humans, at this time in history. We show that we are a 'Just' society or we show that the law is different for those with means. History is watching.
How is this not a criminal case now? This is deliberate fraud, homicide and prevent the course of justice. People from both Post Office and Fujitsu needs to be in prison for this
Paula Vennels Angela Van den Bogard Alice Perkins Jarnail Singh Roderick Williams Rob Wilson John Scott the shredder in chief David Pardoe Mark Davies Just some of the people the police should be looking at.
Absolutely astounding! Thank goodness for these two gentlemen and the work they did. Still cannot get over the whole debacle and how it was handled. My heart aches for the SPM’s. The best bit has been watching Jason Beer KC making those thugs squirm. Now I only hope there are some serious repercussions.
Top management at both the PO and Fujitsu both knew right from the start that the Horizon IT system wasn't fit for purpose. Paula Vennels wasn't there at the very beginning of this scandal, but she not only knew that the IT system wasn't reliable, she was very much involved with the cover up, with the various threats to anyone who risked giving the game away and with falsely incriminating the Sub Postmasters. Of course there are others who were complicit, she wasn't alone. They even tried threatening the TV companies who made the documentaries about what was happening. The only people they didn't dare to take to court were the journalists at Private Eye, because their priority was to avoid bad publicity. Private Eye had been banging on about this for a long time, did nobody notice ?
TAXPAYER FOOTS ALL BILLS - over £3 Billion for initial prosecutions, court time, jail time, numerous inquiries investigations and reports, Post Office defences in court, several compensation boards and the actual payments, appeals of convictions, future police investigations, trial with maybe jailtime for one, and ALL lawyers and barristers throughout,.
In my working life, I would have ended up in prison if I had done a fraction of the covering up that was done in this case or if I had failed to act on a serious problem just as they failed to act. Difficult to have much sympathy for the Post Office management, easy to believe the sub-postmasters. There is crime in all of this, the police must act too.
' I've been shot at, blown up, I'm not going to be intimidated by threats like that.'
Those are the words of an honourable man.
Impressive words,😮
Probably a Falklands or Nth Ireland vet
No tie Ian? I can think of 21 or 23 reasons why not!
@@ukusapatriot327 he mentioned online that he did a tour at the 22nd SAS, the reservist of the Regiment and was assigned to the military adviser team operating during the Northern Irish troubles. Later on went to Sandhurst and became a Royal Engineers officer. Was part of the mine clearance effort in the gulf War when Saddam was chased out of Kuwait.
The fact that Alan Bates is now a Sir and Paula V handed back her honor, to me says it all. The police MUST investigate because a lot of people are guilty of a miscarriage of justice.
She is still enjoying the Bonus Money paid to her while the Postmasters never got back the Money PostOffice stole from them and swelled the Bonus for top Executives
@josephdowling4524 - oh you bet, and that has GOT to be paid back
I believe that the granting of the knighthood is yet another sinister ploy by the establishment to further absolve them of any responsibility for what has happened, by ostensibly aligning themselves with the sub postmasters.
@@Jack-hy1zq its the pot calling the the kettle mate.!!!...hahaha
Good point, well made. Great interview. There is clearly now sufficient prima facie evidence for police to begin investigating a number of people who have given evidence at the inquiry. How long must justice be delayed whilst inquiries such as this are conducted by people, KCs for example, paid by the hour?
Post office board and CEO must go to prison
Yes 100% right
Paula is a woman and she has cried repeatedly so no prison time for her.
Dont forget the Lib Dem person also involved
fujitsu management too
we here got more chance of seeing a jail for our comments you tube advertising for the PO.
Mr Henderson & Mr Warmington both deserve a public acknowledgement of their integrity, tenacity and BRAVERY in helping to uncover all this, I doubt anyone would argue against knighthoods, but at the very least an OBE which is for "Distinguished regional or county-wide role in any field, through achievement or service to the community including notable practitioners known nationally." They certainly tick the OBE box as 'noble practitioners known nationally'!! Sending much admiration and respect to them both from Oz!
Here, here 👏👏🏼
But they wont honours only given to
Artists actors sports people and mates not the people who deserve them
@@alanfrost4661That is not entirely true. There are many who are given honours they deserve, even though others are questionable. This year there were many who deserved to be honoured - the most outstanding honour was that given to Alan Bates. Well done Sir Alan!
Well there’s a spare CBE kicking around now…..
And compensation for the many years when their life was blighted by a set of people more interested in a cover up and self-protection. This must serve as a lesson for all company boards that the truth must not always be hidden, especially when innocent people are being hurt. Imagine if this happened to you!
I would like to thank the two gentlemen. From the start, I didn't understand why the auditors did not pick up transactional errors from the IT system. This testimony makes the situation clear. Two heroes.
One of the auditors warned Alice Perkins about Horizon when she took over as Chair.
It seems that some of the PO "auditors" had no formal training, and they were just ticking boxes on templates, ie: "is the back door open",. The PO auditors were not forensic auditors.
I said the same thing my daughter is a chartered accountant and i asked her the same thing because i didnt get it either
The Post Office should have been on the look out for problems with any system sold them by Fujitsu. In my professional career, I had many dealings with ICL, whom Fujitsu later acquired, and rarely did ICL commercially release any software free of "undocumented features", many of them serious.
Anyway, a great interview. There is clearly now sufficient prima facie evidence for police to begin investigating a number of people who have given evidence at the inquiry. How long must justice be delayed whilst inquiries such as this are conducted by people, KCs for example, paid by the hour?
@@Pinkyandthebrain290 At the time, what would you have expected them to be able to tell the police and expect the police to act upon?
Isn't it amazing? The people on the right side of this scandal have normal, clear recall of important matters, while those on the wrong side can barely remember anything.
And those on the "wrong side" are also the mostly highly paid, well remunerated, highly honoured, "experts" who claim to be beyond reproach. 😂
True, but don't forget the ones being questioned, all have amnesia, need to see a dr for it
Exactly, it’s easier to recall the truth
I think the schools they went to ran a ‘Selective Memory Development Course’
This on the anniversary of the week that was the beginning of Watergate.
What a contrast between these two gentlemen and the evasive, lying, uncaring, self serving parade of bureaucrats who were the management and lawyers of the Post Office.
But would they be as truthful if they were in that position? We can all pontificate from the sofa until the questions are ones we have to answer. Jail time for these liars and deceivers.
@@mojo6098 Yes, there is some truth in that, those people who laid into me for not wearing a mask probably fool themselves into thinking they would have joined the French Resistance...
They can sit there and be genuinely honest, that's the major difference.
@@JohnDavis-ed5sg Maybe, maybe not. Did you think you were a heroic freedom fighter for not wearing a mask?
@@vegansauce8653 Yes, I did. And proudly anti-vax. And I like Trump. And David Icke. Not so keen on vegans, fried or boiled.
No excuses, the police must stop prevaricating and charge the people responsible, especially Paula Vennals.
Agreed. Trouble is, only the little people like sub-postmasters go to jail.
The Public Enquiry has put a lot of information in the public domain which will be great assistance to any Police investigations. T
he PO behaved disgracefully, but it's naive to think other large organisations don't have the same mentality and try to bury bad news and wrong doing.
I agree. There is clearly now sufficient prima facie evidence for police to begin investigating a number of people who have given evidence at the inquiry. How long must justice be delayed whilst inquiries such as this are conducted by people, KCs for example, paid by the hour?
I believe that the police are watching the inquiry and have 80 officers around the country working on an investigation. Also, the House of Lords is pushing HARD for prosecutions, but they acknowledge that this must wait until the inquiry concludes. After all, prosecuting without all the facts is how this started.
Interesting how similar the Name Vennals is to the word Venal... how appropriate !
Paula venells MUST GO TO JAIL and have ALL her financial benefits stripped.
We can take a little joy from knowing g that Vennels and all her co conspirators are having night after night of no sleep and must be afraid to walk the streets.
Definitely, she was in charge when this was going on, it's obvious to anyone that these people are lying and have tried to cover it up for as long as possible, her and the rest of the guilty have to be locked up, my God they locked up innocent people so the guilty have to go to prison.
Without a doubt.
That will not happen the rich get away with it.
Jail 100%
Until people go to jail, this will continue, in all walks of life.
Paula Vennells should be prosecuted.
She may be, time will tell.
and her corrupt, incompetent mates and the fujitsu liars
@@jjefferyworboys8138she will escape scott free and that's a bigger betting certainly than the dite of the election
The lawyers such as roderic williams and jarnail sigh must go to jail
@@michaelmcginley7930Lawyers go to jail ? Will never happen, the Law Society has to be the most corrupt organisation known to man, they look out for each other because they all know that under the facade they’re all as bent as the next lawyer.
These 2 have helped my mum and all the others
Without them we wouldnt be where we are today
So thank you both
GOD bless them
yes police should be involved
Yes you’re right but,as the police are politicised by this government and the new labour government by bliar who brought this scandal to start with I think bias will win out and no one will face proper justice ,maybe a true independent police investigation will be needed ,interpol it’s that serious
I have been watching the hearings on a daily basis and these two gentlemen were a breath of fresh air, whereas PO staff could "not recall" or "remember" they remembered everything. Susan Crichton was one of the few PO staff who seemed to be truthful, yet, everyone else was trying to blame her, their statements backed her up and made liars of others. A lot of of people will now start to worry thinking they will face consequences for their actions, about time. Thankyou Ron and Ian.
This is exactly what I said yesterday. Amazing how people's memory faded when they needed to tell the truth 😡😡😡
@@stevescott245 Oh they remembered, they did not want to incriminate themselves.
@@johnlawrence7386 absolutely
@@johnlawrence7386 I'm guessing thats the defence strategy - that it's better to be considered terminally stupid or incompetent rather than criminally liable.
Vennells needs to get 25 years in prison.
While the Police are at it they should investigate Cathryn Ross and all of the Water companies for dumping turds into our rivers!
yes!!
And now, as if to rub salt into the wounds, many water company management appear to feel that, because of their mis-management and failure to invest in improved infrastructure over the years, their customers should now pay increased bills to put it all right. It's a typical "we made the mistake, but *you'll* have to pay for it" . Plus of course in the meantime, the shareholders still continue to receive their payouts.......
They will not investigate all the country is just as corrupt why people still think we live in a non corrupt country is beyond me 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
@@Brian-om2hhalso the fact they borrowed billions to buy it then offloaded it onto the water company then sold it, fraud and pillaging the public purse, the executives should go to jail and shareholders repay the business imo
HEROES !!!❤❤❤❤❤ I watched both of your testimonies. THANK YOU !!!
It was refreshing to hear people who just told the truth. Thank you gentlemen.
Mr Henderson & Mr Warmington thank you gentlemen for your work & sadly more to do, it needs to be done evil must not prevail ,my belief is that it was all about money particularly the bonuses & scandal may have meant Vennells & others would lose the high salaries
Bravo to both these gentlemen
How is it possible that there 2 gentlemen can have a completely functioning memory, when all those other clowns that we have listened to are all suffering from extensive amnesia.
The real criminals must be prosecuted
Thank you Mr Warmington and Mr Henderson - as well as Sir Alan, of course. Thank you so much for all your courage, and hard work, and for standing up against those appalling, despicable bullies in the Post Office. Their deceit, and callous and agggressive tactics need to be called out, and they ALL need to be punished for what they did to those poor people.
Paula Venells must pay back £2.2 Million she received in a bonus.......She failed 100%.
This testimony is becoming more and more revealing, and the noose is becoming tighter and tighter for POL senior executives and their prosecuting legal team.
some judges were crooked too
Those responsible for the prosecutions should be jailed for the same number of year that all the postmasters were jailed, cumulatively.
It’s about time the horrible people get ready for jail and the postmasters need medals for standing up to the disgusting things they have endured. THIS IS A NATIONAL BLIGHT FOR THE UK!
Two remarkable men. Thank you
When I watched their testimony for the enquiry yesterday it was very clear they had been threatened with litigation by the post office. if the PO was prepared to spend £300,000 to destroy Lee Castleton. What would they have spent to destroy these two men given half the chance
Thank you so much for being. YOU kind honest and professional again thank you both x
One word describes these guys...."Heroes"!
Great for the accountancy profession.
You shown what it's all about - integrity.
There accounting institution should honour them as great ambassadors.
This is what heroes look like.
It's amazing how these two people can remember everything and the post office crooks can remember nothing
The argument from some within POL that comes up at the inquiry is "protecting the brand". To a lot of people that would mean coming clean and admitting the mistakes and pursuing justice for the incorrectly convicted. They decided to take the opposite tactic and cover up perhaps one mistake and let it snowball.
The fact that threats were made shows that individuals are responsible for this disgrace, people make threats not corporations so those people should be accountable.
“I didn’t trust what they were saying” “I’m certain she knew” Damning…
Are any of the judges whom convicted the sub post masters going to give evidence at the inquiry? Or are they a protected species?
good question
A judge can only give judgement on the evidence put before them. It is up to _those presenting the evidence_ to ensure that it is correct, and it is those people who MUST suffer the consequences of presenting false evidence.
The judges and jury of criminal cases based their verdict on the evidence given. The people who gave false evidence and failed to disclose are the one who should face charges for perjury They broke the law
As far as I understand it the only real accusation one might aim at the judges involved would concern a level of 'computer says no'-style naivety. But that's about all.
In fairness, *It was a tech savvy judge who signalled the big turn around for the SubPostmasters* - Judge Fraser.
His damning judgement was key, eg: “There were two specific matters where [Van den Bogerd] did not give me frank evidence, and sought to obfuscate matters, and mislead me,”
POL, their KC's, lawyers etc. did everything in their power to have him removed from the case.
They nearly succeeded, too. These KC's were grilled about their actions at the enquiry last week.
The pompous assery was off the charts.
fwiw....
@@Kevin-mx1vi
But there was no "evidence". There was NO PROOF presented that they stole any money. They didn't steal anything so how could there have been credible proof? Just a "computer says yes" mentality. The "computer says it so it must be true" approach.
Anyone seeing the £20,000 a day electricity bills for a small flat, according to their "smart meter" knows this to be untrue.
Anyone working regularly with computerised programmes knows this to be untrue.
This is NOT evidence. This is NOT proof. Any JUDGE should have known this. 😢
Ironically if the Post Office had come clean at a very early stage, admitted they made a mistake, compensated victims fairly and shown transparency in what they would do to ensure it never happened again, the public by and large would have forgiven them and their brand wouldn’t be destroyed at all. Now it seems like their brand is forever tainted.
Responsibility for Horizon software errors is with Fujitsu/ICL until the Post Office decided to accept that software as fit for purpose.
So failure to specify requirements and thoroughly test against them is a classic IT project failure.
Had Fujitsu been an ethical enterprise they would have ensured that the testing was sufficient and complete.
Post Office audit should have been involved to sign off the testing plan and results since financial data is processed.
These are the kind of people who restore my faith in humanity.
Vennels sobbing when forced to admit her faults. She should be given a real reason to sob when she is made to return the huge salary and benefits.
The real victims are still out suffering.
Very moving interview.
Vennells must go to prison
Certainly not alone, her chairwoman, heads of legal and IT, should be with her.
@@ianmclachlan7476 and not just because she deserves to be punished, but they must send a message to all those others that similarly abuse power - Fred Goodwin...etc list goes on
These are the type of Men who stand up to the injustices of this world and make it a better place. Respect. Thank you Sirs. Hope those responsible will pay for their crimes. Have made so many people suffer.
God bless these two GENTLEMEN.
definitely get police involved now.
it is evil behaviour...
EVIL.
These two upright gentlemen should also have received some honours alongside Sir Alan Bates.
No. They were paid. Alan Bates wasn’t.
@@adrianrose7703 fair enough. but to have a colossus of a Govt. organization, squaring upto you, threatening you and acting maliciously against you - yet you remaining steadfast to the point of being removed from the line of duty by the same colossus; doesn't that count for anything? Especially when SecondSight could have walked away, simply stating their inability to continue the case for lack of co-operation on part of stakeholders, keeping PO happy.
A vein of shear corruption running through the post office headed by Vennells
OLD SCHOOL! He made recordings on a *reel to reel* tape machine without anyone noticing? Amazing.
He was recording telephone conferences, probably using a speaker phone.
The tape recorders shown on screen are just for illustration. In fact, they used wax cylinders.
@@stevenptew😂
The presenter is either very old or got it wrong.
Very careless ...
Thanks to these 2 men and their partners....come on prosecute and pay the postmasters their dues.
As a victim I feel that every one points the finger at the Post Office management, but it was the politicians and the senior civil service who have assidulously kept their names and actions out of the public arena.
Vennells was only obeying the orders she was given by her principles and they are using her as a shield, a scapegoat to avoid any accountability. Every single political party knew and approved of what the Post Office were doing. Their senior people are closely linked to either the lawyers prosecuting the postmasters, or Fujitsu and yet none of them has even been interviewed by the inquiry.
The establishment has closed ranks to protect itself and no one even appears to have noticed.
There's much truth in what you say.
Sorry but these guys are anything but "bean counters". That's a reductive and somewhat crude term. They have been involved in some fascinating criminal and civil cases. What's rare is that they can lead from the front by directing complex investigations as well as graft their way through copious information and ( in particular Ian) can perform detailed IT forensics analysis to a very advanced level. This is intriguing work. They aren't preparing accounts!
Well said!
I think, in a clumsy way perhaps, he was trying to convey how POL saw them rather than how he sees them. These are two incredibly good people
I call for these lovely gentlemen to become knighted and sirs.
My mother ran a sub post office in Wales for seventeen years.
One week she actually managed to balance her books.
The Post Office sent her a congratulations card!
She'd have gone to jail if she'd still been working when they introduced this software.
As a former tester, I don't understand why they got away with arguing that their software is infallible. There's no such thing.
Exactly why are the release notes not being included in evidence? How did this get in to production via change management without a test exit report? I suspect that the judiciary doesn’t know what questions to ask.
Best practice is for Audit to review and sign off the test plan and test report whenever financial data is processed in an application.
Post Office audit should have done that in the core application of Post Office counters business.
Post Office IT management should not have accepted the Horizon software application for business operations without the sufficient and complete test plan and report.
That's fundamental application life cycle management.
Further the post office business should have completed user acceptance testing using the migrated data so that both application and data migration were validated as fit for business purposes. Fundamental.
Nonfunctional requirements not only include performance and also record management so that there is a full audit log of financial data and key business entities. Reliability matters.
These two gentlemen, both quiet and unassuming, are proof that not all heroes wear capes. Their relief at finally being able to testify as to what they discovered at the Post Office was palpable. After years of being shackled by NDAs, knowing that people had died, gone to prison or been bankrupted, this must have been a very sweet moment for them both.
Total Conspiracy by the post-office
It's a great pity that Mrs Vennells wasn't scheduled to appear at the enquiry after Messrs Henderson and Warmington isn't it?
That WOULD have made it interesting wouldn't it?
But then they would have had chance to rehearse and prepare, this way they have been exposed to the highest degree and in some cases perjured themselves beyond reasonable doubt.
Evil is so intrenched in our society.
Let's see justice! The police must investigate. Those at the top seemed to do little work and had little memories of it, whilst, the highly conscientious sub postmasters, by contrast, work/ed extremely hard supporting and providing for their local communities. Those that lied, deceived defrauded and extorted must be investigated. Why were such characters ever employed and given so much power?
I cannot bare to watch Paula Vennells and all the other liars...these two gentlemen are exposing the truth once and for all.
I just hope at the end of the enquiry the guilty will go to prison and their bonuses and pensions paid back to the innocent 'little people '.
The expression the accountants were looking for, regarding Paula Vennells, is “cognitive dissonance,” the state of having inconsistent thoughts, beliefs, or attitudes at the same time.
No. They were paid. Alan Bates wasn’t
I think she choose post office and with no care about postmasters......
Bonuses and target-meeting was at the root of this disgrace. "Money is the root of all evil"..Perfectly fits here.
Been following the inquiry. What a change to see men with integrity.
Every person in the Post Office and Fujitsu who covered this up need to be jailed for fraud.
Tell me...
Were ITV - and the rest of the media - quite so morally outraged, and high and mighty, a decade ago ?
When it actually would have made a material difference...
Private Eye and Computer Weekly certainly were.
I don't think it had crossed over to general consciousness 10 years ago. The first time it really hit the mainstream was BBC Panorama in 2015. Yes someone should have picked up on it before then but don't forget how powerful the PO was back then and how determined they were to throw huge sums of money at lawyers to suppress it.
@@fgrsimon
Or...
It didn't cross over into public consciousness, because the MSM wasn't doing its job. And was spineless in the face of threats.
Or, it WAS doing its job, which is to never rock the political boat.
@@barryscott6222it was definitely doing its job - editorial bias has always been problem.
The msm is owned by billionaires and they will not abide attention towards the types of games they also play
The Post Office have a new brand name:
"NOT ME GOV!"
Both should be knighted and post office higher ups including entire pr department jailed for a long time
This is staggering. ...!
This is a test for the UK, for us all. Will the people responsible be investigated? They absolutely MUST.
Shame it had to be crystal clear to ITV before you publicised it as you weren’t interested back in the day, shameful.
A lot of people should end up in prison for this. Let's see how it goes.
Why are you not covering the covid enquiry in such detail …the excess deaths and huge numbers of cancers increase in plain view …
Being a CEO is all about brand, marketing and PR. It has little to do with technical detail. So I am not surprised by Paula's appalling lack of appreciation and understanding of this whole saga; until it was too late! She must be held accountable for this, but will likely not be.
Post office . bullies.
All the management should be in prison!!!!!
"Police should be brought in"???..... but are there not 80 Detectives now involved?
It's time for the Old Bailey and the full force of the Law brought to bare....
Long jail sentences must follow.
Starmer will make sure it won't happen 😮😢😮😢😮😢
"Starmer will make sure it won't happen"
Maybe the fact that Starmer was DPP and head of the CPS between 2008 and 2013 and was knighted in 2014 for his work in the CPS is going to hinder him.
Politics aside, not one of the cases was referred to the DPP.
when are the police going to arrest these people that ruined those lives they should be in a court in the dock they have proof so get on and arrest them
After the enquiry, I should think. I bet those at the top of the PO chain and several lawyers from the independent law firms brought in to help the PO are having sleepless nights and so they should!
I am hoping that the seemingly lack of police action is because they are waiting for the hearings to end and the conclusions to be published. I then hope that they will immediately arrest Vennells and all other personnel that were complicit in this despicable cover-up. If they do not, then there is something very, very wrong with the laws of this country. I also think that Fujitsu should be ideally kicked out of the country for their part in the scandal. I remind everyone that Fujitsu are also responsible for the debacle of the personal government issued 'My Number' card in Japan.
Two inspirational men . Thank you ❤
Well done to these Gentlemen it is lovely to know their is honest people left in the world a big thankyou to you both It all comes out in the wash Paula Vennells and her Covent need to go to prison as soon as possible
Thank God there are still people with integrity in this World 👍
Let a criminal court decide if Vennells and others should be jailed?
What a heroic pair xx
He hits the nail on the head at 4:36. The Post Office must have known that the spike in problems was due to the new system being put in place, not hundreds of sub-postmasters suddenly deciding to “go rogue”.
The Post Office is not alone.
They keep saying "faulty Horizon system". It wasn't faulty. For the Post Office, it did exactly what was required of it. It enabled the Post Office, via Fujitsu, to create false deficits in the accounts. This enabled the Post Office to threaten the subpostmasters with prison, unless they made up the losses.
Police involvement please ASAP.
Whenever I see the real people from this, I can't stop welling up.
I have no skin in this game but it feels so personal.
How this plays out is surely a representation of how we are, as humans, at this time in history.
We show that we are a 'Just' society or we show that the law is different for those with means.
History is watching.
All this should have been sorted a long time ago!!
How is this not a criminal case now? This is deliberate fraud, homicide and prevent the course of justice. People from both Post Office and Fujitsu needs to be in prison for this
This is not the only case of its kind in the UK business world. I’ve seen such behaviour in many other sectors?
Paula Vennels
Angela Van den Bogard
Alice Perkins
Jarnail Singh
Roderick Williams
Rob Wilson
John Scott the shredder in chief
David Pardoe
Mark Davies
Just some of the people the police should be looking at.
Andrew Bridgen opened the door - without him no investigation!
Absolutely astounding! Thank goodness for these two gentlemen and the work they did. Still cannot get over the whole debacle and how it was handled. My heart aches for the SPM’s.
The best bit has been watching Jason Beer KC making those thugs squirm. Now I only hope there are some serious repercussions.
Top management at both the PO and Fujitsu both knew right from the start that the Horizon IT system wasn't fit for purpose. Paula Vennels wasn't there at the very beginning of this scandal, but she not only knew that the IT system wasn't reliable, she was very much involved with the cover up, with the various threats to anyone who risked giving the game away and with falsely incriminating the Sub Postmasters. Of course there are others who were complicit, she wasn't alone. They even tried threatening the TV companies who made the documentaries about what was happening. The only people they didn't dare to take to court were the journalists at Private Eye, because their priority was to avoid bad publicity. Private Eye had been banging on about this for a long time, did nobody notice ?
Powerful stuff and no surprise.
Threats of personal bankrupcy…. Isn’t this what the government did to Andrew Bridgen!… He didn’t give up either even though he lost everything almost.
At this rate we’ll all be dead 💀 by the time they get to court’
What a strange crooked system this country has for Professional people.
The lawyers and accountants have professional standards and regulation. Post Office management, not so much..
Thank god for the few honest men in this story.
TAXPAYER FOOTS ALL BILLS - over £3 Billion for initial prosecutions, court time, jail time, numerous inquiries investigations and reports, Post Office defences in court, several compensation boards and the actual payments, appeals of convictions, future police investigations, trial with maybe jailtime for one, and ALL lawyers and barristers throughout,.
These are the sorts of people who should be receiving honors from the King rather than slimey celebrities, politicians and their lackeys.
In my working life, I would have ended up in prison if I had done a fraction of the covering up that was done in this case or if I had failed to act on a serious problem just as they failed to act. Difficult to have much sympathy for the Post Office management, easy to believe the sub-postmasters. There is crime in all of this, the police must act too.