Whats even more funny is that in the first fight he probably didnt even need Oozaru since Goku was burnt out after the beam struggle. Its almost a blessing Vegeta couldn't sense energy until Namek.
@XZAVIER-DAA-GOD i would argue that Vegeta feeling like he had to go to Oozaru because he assumed Goku still had that Kaioken power was enough to bruise his ego. If I remember right, when he was in the sky fully enraged he was pissed he had to transform more than he lost the beam struggle.
Vegeta’s perception of Goku has always been a little strange. On Earth, Vegeta was way stronger. He lost his composure and went into Great Ape form, but Goku couldn’t even lift his arms after the Kaioken x4. He could have beaten him if he stayed calm. Then when Goku arrived in Namek, Vegeta was shocked and convinced himself that Goku was a Super Saiyan. In reality, this was post-Senzu Vegeta who would later go on to display a PL of around 250,000. Goku’s base at that point was 90,000. Vegeta is far far stronger, but is literally freaking himself out over this. These 2 moments in particular, Vegeta would reflect on as his great humiliations in his life. Which is just bizarre because he was literally more powerful than Goku.
ya cause when goku arrived vegeta was already wreck'd by recoom and saw how much more powerful goku was since earth. then seeing him one shot recoom. the guy who just bodied him earlier. ya his freak outs were logical. lol. plus ptsd from his battle on earth with goku n friends. he was still in shock a low level class could rise up to have so much power... when vegeta himself training so hard in his life couldnt reach what goku had it seems. to that point. tho goku was using capsule corp gravity hax. which vegeta himself would later use and abuse to attain his power up and ss. so it all works out. 😆 namek saga is went dbz power scaling got crazy tho.
Yeah, no. After the kaioken X4 not only Goku was weakened, Vegeta was too. Remember that Gohan was able to fight him later on? And Goku wasn't inable to move like you said. If Vegeta didn't turned into his Great Ape form, Goku would've found a way. And at the Namek saga, Goku using Kaoiken power level was 180.000 but remember that he could use it x10 then, so he was way stronger than Vegeta.
@@juliocabral6949 in Ch 38, a pat on the back from Yajirobe caused Goku to scream out in pain. He then says he’s at his limit after the Kaioken x4. Then King Kai says even without Vegeta’s Oozaru form, he may be more than enough for Goku. Their only hope is the Spirit Bomb. If Vegeta had just taken care of business in that moment, there’s minimal chance Goku could have charged up a Spirit Bomb in front of Vegeta like that. That hypothetical situation doesn’t actually matter and is irrelevant to my point. Vegeta’s perception of these events is discordant with what actually happened. Also Goku can use the Kaioken x10 but that also doesn’t matter because Vegeta is astounded at Goku’s base form - which is 90,000. He got up to 180k by maintaining a Kaioken x2. Once again, his perception is discordant with reality. That’s my point. Not who would win in a fight.
It's not true that Goku couldn't raise his arms after the 4x Kaioken. Goku attempted the Spirit Bomb after Vegeta went Great Ape, but Vegeta interrupted him before he could fire it.
Vegeta was nowhere near that strong when he saw Goku. He was weaker than the Ginyu force. Goku went from being way weaker to being way stronger than him. Him being freaked out isn't weird. He was in denial and was trying to be the super Saiyan too. He didn't want Goku to do it, and didn't want to accept that Goku could surpass him.
Main difference is Goku never sold his soul to get a power boost haha he put his life on the line by drinking the true sacred water to get a power up, but that was to save the world from King Piccolo. TBH you could say Goku wanted revenge for Krillin's death being his main motivator. However, it was still a less selfish reason than Vegeta wanting to relive the glory days due to a midlife crisis....
ya kinda weird. but then vegeta being a special class of saiyan himself. born with a high battle power... second highest next to broly. makes sense he could find a hax way.
@@GojoTheHonoredOne9 goku has his perfect ki memory, learing techniclsk by seoing them once, its never stated directly but pretty evident, my head cannon is Vegeta has something similar but for forms. If he see a form he can match it but he has toi see it first. thats why hes always last to unlock new milestone forms. He needs to see it to replicate it
Idk....i think people kind of underestimate that beat down Goku put on Vegeta right before he chose to blow the planet up. Go back and watch that fight...it ranks as one of the most SAVAGE beat downs Goku has ever given. Goku suplexed him and turned it into a backbreaker, pummeled him with a series of haymakers and then drove Vegeta's body into the edge of a mountain with his knee driven into his back(which had Vegeta realing in pain holding his stomach). I think because Vegeta was so hurt he had to turn ape. In that sense....Goku one that one on one/hand to hand.
Excuse me? Vegeta Beat Goku's Ass in all of their fights outside of sparring that we did not see. That's one of the biggest irony's about Vegeta's inferiority complex. Despite literally winning every fight against Goku he loses to Enemies that Goku or Gohan beat.
@@Darien4life lol he didn’t literally win every fight. Vegeta needed to transform into a monster to overcome Kaio ken. The second fight Goku was basically playing around with Vegeta. Vegeta didn’t win the SSJ2 fight because he snuck Goku after he agreed to help fight Buu.
Few things: Vegeta trained with Whis for months before Goku arrived, and he still caught up in a short time. Vegeta got SSJ4 with Bulma’s help in GT. I still believe Goku threw the fight in the Super Hero movie.
No Vegeta is the one who caught up as Goku was a super Saiyan god after undergoing the ritual, Vegeta trained and attained it without the ritual, and Goku didn't throw the fight he simply just lost to Vegeta again.
LOL ok Vegeta was stronger than Goku in SSB before he got UI Vegetas base has been stronger than Gokus for awhile. They're once again dead even it seems he definitely didn't throw the fight.
The idea that Goku never kills... I mean hell people, the man killed his own brother. Piccolo would never been able to hit the Beam Cannon (I don't know how to spell the Japanese name lol) on Raditz if Goku hadn't held the man in place. It might be a last resort for Goku to kill, but he does kill people.
Edit: gotta say I jumped the gun and this was well-covered in the latter part of the video. But I still hold that the Super writers are big wimpy loser scribble babies. GT less so. While I appreciate this thorough breakdown on the paths Goku and Vegeta took in their improvement as combatants, in-context we all do know that Vegeta was commenting on Goku's character and integrity when he made his speech during the Kid Buu fight. Vegeta's entire arc was about recognizing how his unhealthy mindset is what held him back from achieving his goals. This WOULD have been where Vegeta was truly on his own path and free from comparing himself to others... if the GT/Super writers had any guts..
A great breakdown as always and I think when Vegeta talks about his loss to Goku during the Sayian Saga it was two fold. First Goku matched Vegeta in terms of strength where Vegeta couldn't beat Goku in his present form and needed to change into the Oozure so that would be a defeat for Vegeta even though he left Goku a broken heap by the end. The second while Vegeta beat Goku he still lost to Gohan and Krillin so while Vegeta won the battle with Goku he lost the wat for the Earth which given Vegeta's pride he would call that a loss.
Like you said, Goku had a lot of training that helped him get stronger whereas Vegeta trained himself and earned battle experience. I think that's why Vegeta was so surprised that someone who lost to Raditz was suddenly as strong as Nappa. Typical Saiyans are too proud to ask for help so when they're born weak they're expected to stay that way
Vegeta is still mad that Goku went Super Saiyan first to fight Frieza, what Vegeta wanted his whole life turning him evil just to redeem the saiyans yet both Trunks his half human son and Goku still killed frieza and Goku brought him back to life so Vegeta is trying to get to Frieza one last time before he loses his chance again, Vegeta is always trying to catch up
Vegeta suffers from imposter syndrome and has an inferiority complex which is why is pride and ego is so fragile. Also why is hangs onto the title of prince and considers Goku low class.
Son Goku is my favorite character but I find Prince Vegeta, Future Trunks & Piccolo Jr as more interesting characters & even Lord Frieza and Perfect Cell
About what you said where translators don't always directly translate what sounds like English to Japanese, this used to bother me a lot. But in learning Japanese, I find that most Japanese people don't actually understand english. They use english words that don't mean what they are. For example, the Japanese word マンション (mansion) actually means apartment. Why? Who knows. And deeper than that, it's not certain that any English "equivalent" words can convey the full Japanese meaning. We can often only loosely translate what is being said, if at all. You'd be surprised how much nuance is simply chopped off from JP to ENG because there's no way (or maybe no concise way) to say some things in English. And finally, in the case of "number 1" being translated to "the champion", perhaps the translator thought this translation fit better. We have to consult the emotion and who is saying it when translating. It's not always straight-forward. And ofc, sometimes the translation sucks. I disagree with translations all the time, but it's the price you pay if you don't read directly from the source.
There isn't any real explanation to be had here. Vegeta was decisively stronger than Goku for most of their lives. The real difference lies in the amount of work they did. From birth until he fought Goku, Vegeta got AT MOST one zenkai boost. Does very little, if anything, to improve his power that he was given since birth. In the first twenty years of his life, Goku gets what, two or so DOZEN zenkais? Then picks up about a dozen MORE in the next five years? Oh let's also throw in the fact that Goku trains under FIVE different masters before he turns 25. How many masters does Vegeta train under? Oh that's right, he doesn't train under ANYONE. Until DBSuper, but I don't count it as canon. Give Vegeta that many zenkais for the first 25 years of HIS life and that boy would likely be ssj2 BEFORE the Freeza saga. And THAT was why Freeza wanted to keep his eyes on Vegeta. Cuz he knew this. Knew that Vegeta, born with a power level of 10k, could possibly grow up to match or even be better than Freeza.
I don't think it was a good point to boil down Goku being stronger than Vegeta after training in the room of spirit and time because he was training with Gohan who had the most potential, as a sparring partner. Because he trained with Gohan and Piccolo for 3 years and Vegeta still lapped him when they were training for the androids. The reason why Goku was way stronger is because he's the better marital artist. Vegeta was using ssj grade 2 while Goku was using ssj grade 4. Goku realized how to best use ssj and when Vegeta saw that, it came as a total shock to him that he figured out how to stay in ssj without it draining his stamina. And even with this revelation, Vegeta went back in and still didn't surpass Goku. Also Goku was spending time trying to catch Gohan up to ssj, so he was naturally not spending every moment pushing himself to his limit like Vegeta was. That is until Gohan caught up. Even then Goku was in the room of spirit and time for 10 months, while Vegeta spent a year the first go around training non stop to his limit, and then went for another round of two years. Goku reached a level in just 10 months, that Vegeta couldn't touch with 3 years of training mainly because Goku is a way better marital artist. Think about it, when Vegeta has a clear advantage in most fights he's calculated. But when he's overwhelmed he makes stupid mistakes and starts charging at his opponents or ki spamming. While Goku remains calm in a fight, even when overwhelmed. Goku is just a better marital artist and that's his real advantage over Vegeta. It's why he was able to unlock ultra instinct basically on his own and Vegeta had to have Beerus tell him how to get ultra ego.
It seems based ok the evidence. That Vegeta is actual more gifted than Goku. And that Goku through him being able to do so many mystical training sessions in comparison was only able to close the gap.
The evidence to me is overwhelming that Goku is better. The hyperbolic time chamber proved that. He knows how to train better than him, granting him more power. It doesn't matter if he trains with other people...what matters is the gains. He's not more powerful by birth, but rather, he is just an overall better fighter and knows how to train himself better. If both were to be left alone to their own devices and given 100 years to train, I would put my money on Goku coming out on top.
I completely disagree with your takes here as training up 300x gravity is a MASSIVE edge it’s impossible to equate which is better between that and a dead body
I'd argue that Vegeta is being truthful when he said he could never beat Goku. Because he has a very strict definition of victory. To Vegeta; Its not enough to beat someone in terms of having raw power. He needs to win the fight absolutely. The fact that he was defeated in a group effort meant he was defeated and thus not a victory. He didn't win against Goku when he went Majin because they mutually postponed it. And he cheap shotted Goku to go alone.
That's kind of the point the show was establishing. Goku for all his strength is not driven by his ego. He can rely on his friends when his own strength isn't enough to win the day. With vegeta well... just ask nappa
@@NewAgeSlaves The fight could have dragged and Vegeta would have beat Goku without transforming. Goku's power level going into that fight was 8500, which he was able to manipulate with Kaio Ken at the expense of his power going down permanently after. Vegeta was at 16k which he was able to temporarily bump up to 18k with the Galik Gun. Thing is, Vegeta didn't really understand that, didn't want to leave anything to chance, didn't know the full extent of Goku's Kaio Ken, and wanted to end things right then and there. Which is why he decided to transform.
3:32 Goku = 416 power level pre-Raditz Yajirobe = 970 during Vegeta fight So Yajirobe could have bodied both Goku and Piccolo in their pre-Raditz states... and accomplish every single feat Goku did in Dragon Ball, such as running up Korin's tower and probably Snake Way too. Yajirobe is basically a god if we're going by just original Dragon Ball's scope. As a point of reference, farmer with a shotgun's power level is 5, Master Roshi (#1 martial artist in the world in his time) is 139, Colonel Silver is 200, King Piccolo is 260
I like to believe that Vegeta admitting Goku is number one is more so symbolizing him getting over his inferiority complex/insecurity. Goku beat a lot of enemies that Vegeta couldn’t beat, and while Vegeta did the same thing with other enemies that Goku couldn’t fight at the time, Vegeta had a hard time admitting that anyone was stronger than him at any point in time. Like mans was literally in DENIAL any time he was bested or surpassed. He hated the fact that he wasn’t the strongest at all times, so I like to believe that rather than cementing Goku as always being the strongest, this scene was more of Vegeta admitting and being okay with the fact that someone is better than him at that point in time, showing some humility, and getting over his inferiority complex.
Goku grew exponentially since he had increasingly talented mentors. Grandpa Gohan, Master Roshi, Kami, King Kai, etc. Vegeta did it by himself and kept up with Goku for the whole series and I find that quite impressive. I think Vegeta has more natural talent and would have grown even more in power if he took a similar route to Goku and learned from others. I think that's why they're about even in power in super is because he's not doing it all on his own anymore.
He did it by himself? Vegeta was the strongest Sayian on planet Vegeta. He was stronger than his father, as a child. He had access to Freeza's technology, Saibamen and was flavored above all Sayians, giving him access to challenging planets. There is no doubt that Vegeta works hard. However, he was following Goku's example. He got the idea from Goku to train above 100 times gravity to eventually become Super Saiyan. Vegeta was actually stronger than Goku before they went into the room of spirit and time and Goku blew past Vegeta. He saw the flaw in the route that Vegeta took (without even knowing that Vegeta took it) and figured that perfecting Super Sayian, until it was their natural state, was the key to unlocking Super Saiyan 2. Vegeta understood during Goku's fight with Buu, that however powerful Vegeta would became, Goku would eventually surpass him.
ya cause he was born with a higher battle power. a super elite class saiyan... raw natural power goes to vegeta. but goku had gods trainings him and buffing him with their techniques. until ss but then god ki became a thing and UI and so on. dbz era goku was the better fighter tho. even with the outcome of the first battle. goku put hurt on vegeta being a low level class power in hundreds. to thousands in months. thanks to kai. but still that training isnt easy and he did it. he has natural talent like vegeta too. then he also could have wrecked cell if he choose to ascened to ss2 but let gohan go at it instead. somethin vegeta sadly didnt realize in his own time with trunks in the rosat. choosing instead to settle for a inbetween form. story logic of goku or gohan needing to save the day aside. lol. its odd for a saiyan of vegetas calibur and combat understanding to just not realize there could be a perfect'd form beyond his super vegeta state. then we have the epic ss3. if we go by vegeta never stopped training either until buu show'd up. no logical reason he couldnt tap into ss3 at some point either. except maybe the hax of haivng dead body. but thats lame cause saiyan body is made for combat efficiency. and we see gotenks get ss3 so u can achieve it in a living body. just gotta work on the stamina drain tho. like gold freeza did. but it is attainable. still goku again had the knowledge and got to it first. dbz era goku was the one step above vegeta always. but now dbs pretty much closes the gap with these two tho and makes them near equals. the better fighter idk. it be a close fight for sure. probably ending in both destroying each other in a epic battle on a secluded planet somewhere. where they can go all out and finally settle it. the planet ends up bcoming a supernova as a result. like in the dragonball online story. i hope it becomes canon someday. lol.
I kinda agree with you, but i think vegeta 's biggest weakness was his pride and the fact he didnt let anyone help him, Super kinda show some growth towards that, vegeta is my favorite and i like his pride, but i am force to recongnize that at some point in the story, it kinda slowed him down, but DBS is awesome in that way, it show so much progression in him, just wished he did killed frieza and was the one to beat moro, i think those 2 moment would had fit perfectly, idk why the keep screwing him up, he deserve, even gohan and picolo got some shine in the last movie and it didnt made sense, Vegeta needs his moment
This is so interesting because it kinda turns the manga Shonen rival trope on its head cause as opposed to a true rivalry Vegeta has an actual inferiority complex that he can’t realize and in admitting he’s better he’s coming to terms with it in a sense
Yeah. I always thought it wasnt really the rivalry that other characters have because Goku never once cared about Vegeta being stronger than him, he was usually just supportive of it or never said anything about it. He was even the one to offer Vegeta the ROST when Vegeta couldn't figure out how to go beyond Super Saiyan after losing to 18. Ironically being the rivalry that spawned so many others in Shounen that actually are truer rivalries like Sasuke & Naruto, Yugi and Kaiba. Both sides wanted to prove themselves to each other. Goku never cared about proving himself to Vegeta. Its also why he's pure of heart. At best Goku just likes to fight Vegeta for the challenge which was what we saw when he foght Majin Vegeta, Goku enjoyed it.
Yeah, just like Goku had advantage in mentors, Vegeta had advantages with all sorts of technology, due to being part of the Freeza force. He was born with a high power level and was taken under Freeza's wing, likely given full access to the best healing chambers and got to take on challenging planets to conquer. The one big example that shows how Goku is better than Vegeta is the Room of Spirit and Time. Goku reached Vegeta's form and realized the flaw of going down that path. He realized that the key was making Super Saiyan a natural state. Vegeta was perplexed when Goku amd Gohan came out of the room. Vegeta is powerful and likely has an easier time achieving the same level of power as Goku. It's not hard to see that AT has gone out of his way to show that Vegeta is a genetic anomaly amongst the Saiyans. However, Goku is a fighting genius. He loves fighting. Not just for the thrill of beating/killing his enemies, but to constantly learn and improve his skill and power. Once Vegeta fought Goku, his goal was to surpass him. While Goku's goals are to constantly improve and surpass himself. I think Vegeta realized that there would never be a point where he would permanently surpass Goku. And given how weak Goku was and how strong Vegeta was, when they were young, to Vegeta that's an L.
@@sheezynation They'd all be dead without the dragonballs and senzu beans. Vegeta had Nappa, Raditz, Saibamen and Freeza force if he got into a bind. Without meeting Goku, Vegeta would've eventually challenged Freeza and died, because he would've underestimated him, like he did when they actually fought. Goku and Vegeta's power as children were so far from each other (Vegeta was stronger than his father as a kid, where Goku struggled against humans), that Goku catching up to Vegeta by the Freeza saga is an embarrassment. Vegeta is impatient, does not work well with others and would never accept help. And while we love him for that, it is a huge flaw. Goku is humble, he is honest and listens to others, which is why he recieved most of the training that he did. Most of what Vegeta had was given to him. Goku struggled the whole way until they had meet. Goku proved the difference between them in the room of spirit and time.
The only thing you need desperately is to accept the fact that Vegeta is not better than Goku... Vegeta was above Goku the first time they met and that was it, after that only delusional fans insist on having this conversation. How many times people throughout the show have to repeat that Goku is one step above vegeta for Vegeta fans to accept that? Hell Whiz is literally training both and he keeps saying that Goku is one step above Vegeta, so why is it so hard for Vegeta fans to listen?
Vegeta seemed to only think this after Goku went Super Saiyan when he couldn't and did it before him. Then him having SS3, something Vegeta never heard of at the time, also shocked him after the Majin Vegeta fight. I think its more about that, and how strong Goku got after the time chamber training with Gohan. But I think its really just nothing to do with Goku being better than Vegeta at all, but just Goku training better than Vegeta for better results that Vegeta never caught on to. He was just caught up in how offended he always was that Goku was either able to do things at all despite his class or that he had trouble fighting him to begin with. Goku wasnt just someone he could one-shot the way he thinks he should do from his class and being raised on Earth, ignorant to the Saiyans. Yet so powerful.
Think when Vegeta refers to Goku as #1 or the champion he's refering to there rivalry not the actual strongest person/entity. And Vegito would be #1 since you mentioned Gotenks. Being that they are rivals and Saiyans wouldn't think Vegeta would settle for #2. They motivate each other to get stronger, not a regression imo at least for Vegeta lol. Vegeta also isn't an "earth" Saiyan as in he didn't live there 1st part of his life. Goku and Vegeta will never change who they are completely. Goku never killed his enemies while Vegeta knew him till Yakon and Kid Buu(the time he's making his speech).Lastly Vegeta was never the person to have a master to train him until Super with Whis and that Yardrat.
The most annoying thing about Goku vs Vegeta over the years is that the anime gaslights the audience super hard about it, despite literally all evidence directly contradicting it.
How does vegeta's zenkai from recoome count as surpassing Goku without help? Also goku training with rests, applying his mind and figuring out a wiser path than vegeta's ascended saiyan mode, CANNOT be attributed to having gohan as a sparring partner. Goku spent more time bringing gohan from being relatively worthless to a super saiyan and then past all this ascended saiyan levels, because of his experience and insight
Any Zenkai boost after a serious fight is basically being assisted by his foe. Also, he got a huge jump from about 500,000 to almost 5x that after Krillin blasted him and he was healed by Dende
@@GeteMachine Because Goku expectations and standards for himself is based on himself and not anything else. Making him better. Vegeta says its his pride at stake but he follows Goku, whereas Goku follows himself and when the bill comes due, because his mindset is more receptive to those around him he has more resources inevitably than Vegeta who at the early stuffed himself in his gravity chamber. At the beginning Vegeta was a victim to his pride and no one else.
3:32 Goku = 416 power level pre-Raditz Yajirobe = 970 during Vegeta fight So Yajirobe could have bodied both Goku and Piccolo in their pre-Raditz states... and accomplish every single feat Goku did in Dragon Ball, such as running up Korin's tower and probably Snake Way too
Of course Vegeta always surpasses him , he has more potential he is a prodigy a saiyan elite . Goku willing to accept training and lessons from others is what always kept him afloat !
Goku trained Gohan to reach his potential to kill cell Vegeta didnt train Trunks, Trunks found out his form had a big weakness, so thetefore Goku is better, he trained his 11 year old son to kill a major villain in DBZ
It's odd how often Vegeta is said to be weaker than or behind Goku, but more often than not, it's been the opposite. The only time Goku really did better than Vegeta was training for Cell, as he was stronger than Vegeta even after Vegeta went into the Room of Spirit and Time the second time, which you'd think would have been enough to surpass Goku.
I think that Vegeta reference to Kakarot sparing his enemies is just based on what he seen from the low class Saiyan. He’s only ever seen him fight Nappa, Recoome, Jeice and Burter, Freiza, Android 19, Cell, Yakon (only time witnessing Goku kill somebody) before that monologue when fighting Buu. Vegeta and Gohan killed the other names (mostly Vegeta but still)
But Vegeta didn't really know how to train. All he really did was beat up his body with gravity. That's not martial arts training. That's just strength training. Goku's training is way more effective because he learned from multiple masters how to train properly. Vegeta just tried to copy what Goku did with gravity training.
@@shmeebs387 not at all, Prince Vegeta is a warrior, he learns in battle, he did what Goku did push himself harder, and Vegeta took advantage of zenkai boost, Goku is a martial artist who is taught by 5 masters untill he became the master, if Vegeta didn't know how to train he wouldn't have came up with all his techniques. Vegeta is not Gohan or Trunks he knows how to train effectively
@@XZAVIER-DAA-GOD But we know Frieza never trained, and he had plenty of techniques. That's not really proof of anything. Goku criticizes Vegeta's training methods several times. Maybe not directly, but he does. In the time chamber, he talks about how just pushing your body physically isn't enough, which is all Vegeta really did. It's the whole Turtle School ethos "move well, study well, play well, eat well, rest well." Vegeta only really did the first one, move well, maybe studied a little by watching Goku.
The biggest argument against this was Goku and Gohan achieving in ~10 months the Mastered SSJ and and remaining stronger than Vegeta even after 2 years in the ROST. We can also apply your theory on how the Zenkai boosts work, and say that Goku was able to multiply his power over and over at a much faster rate than Vegeta was able to do, considering their starting points.
Exactly. That was my point as well. The room of Spirit and time shows the big difference between Goku and Vegeta. Vegeta trains harder, but Goku trains smarter.
I like to think Vegeta was stronger than 50% goku at the cell games since he knew how strong he needed to get in order to surpass, and the reason he’s so surprised when goku goes 100% is because he thought he’d gotten back in front power wise
Also after Goku emerges from ROSAT, he calls out Vegeta for 'torturing his body' when he trains. Goku and Gohan didn't even stay the full year inside yet got an incredible boost from it. Vegeta weny in twice yet not only did he not get as much as Goku or Gohan out it despite completing the full year, he went back in after getting stuffed by Perfect Cell but got diminishing returns.
From Vegeta's perspective, if he has to try at all to fight another Saiyan he will be angry that he is not just superior by default. Remember how angry he looked from having to use SSJ against base Broly? He is insulted he isn't the elite Saiyan he always believed he was. He can admit when anyone other than a Saiyan is stronger than him and points out whatever advantage they had as an excuse as to why he lost to them, but a pure blood Saiyan should never be stronger than him in his own eyes.
In terms of martial arts its goku and who is the better trainer no question. Goku even being weaker than most of his enemies preformed way better than vegeta did like cell, buutenks, kid buu, beerus, zamasu, jiren etc but vegeta preformed horribly against ginyu, android 18, cell, kid buu, beerus, zamasu and jiren. Also the timechamber thing is so faulty. 1st goku was the one who told vegeta that there was power beyond super saiyan. 2. Gohan didnt help goku unlock grade 2 and 3 as gohan had very little battle and training intelligence and thought grade 3 would beat cell but goku knew it wouldnt instantly and the fact that trunks is a stronger and smarter fighter with more experience than gohan at that point and with less time goku came out stronger even when vegeta after seeing grade 4 went back into the time chamber. In super goku unlocks and masters the god forms before vegeta did and vegeta could follow the path goku created. 3 after vegeta trains in the time chamber and beats goku black him and trunks use the father son galic gun which was weaker than gokus Kamehameha in the same fight making goku above blue vegeta and rage trunks combined. In the top vegeta constantly stated that jiren is holding back and tells jiren to use the same power as he does against goku and vegeta isnt able to handle it. Goku in his blue form was almost able to knock out jiren. When ssbk goku and evo vegeta are fighting jiren it was typically vegeta who was getting thrown out of the fight first. All of this eventhough vegeta should have way more potential as he was born a super elite and at 5 years old had a power level above his fathers who was the strongest saiyan and goku was a low class warrior with a birth power level of 1. Goku has always unlocked and mastered forms and techniques and vegeta has the luxury of knowing what is the next step through goku but isnt able to surpass him consistently. Yes goku has more martial arts masters but even when they both are training with whis goku still gets ahead. He is better just like vegeta said
Goku made Vegeta use Ozaru witch hurt his pride and in his mind low class warrior has bitten the elite ... Goku achived SSJ 1 and deffited Freeza before Vegeta ... Majin Vegeta vas equal to SSJ2 Goku, he has to sneek attack him to go fight Majin Buu and later he learned that Goku can go SSJ3 ... Vegeta achived UE, and Goku achived True UI witch is eaven more powerfull then MUI and UE ... they are both great but Goku is no. 1 and Vegeta is no. 2
This might be the first video I've seen of yours where I completely disagree with you, and think you're missing some major factors. I think the major point of Vegeta's speech was that Goku is better than Vegeta because Goku strives to be better than himself, while Vegeta strives to be better than others. That's why it's important to mention that Goku spares his enemies - they don't mean that he has never killed anyone, but rather that he generally wants to have another opportunity to test himself against his enemies - whereas Vegeta would rather cement his supremacy by killing his enemies. That's why Vegeta considers the first battle against Goku a loss. I think there's tons of evidence throughout the series that this difference between them results in Goku being a trailblazer, while Vegeta is just playing catchup. Goku was the one who thought of utilizing extreme gravity for training, not Vegeta - despite Vegata having been exposed to different gravities throughout his life - it would later become an obsession for his training. Goku was the one who unlocked the secret to SSJ, and Vegeta was trying to catch up. Sure, Vegeta caught up to Goku in the android saga - only to be shown up again by Goku who innovated how to use SSJ power to the max. It was thanks to Goku's strategy to surpass SSJ that Gohan was able to - something both Goku an Vegeta learne from later. And then of course, Goku unlocked SSJ3. When reading all these developments, it sounds like you're asking yourself the question: If Vegeta had the same circumstances as Goku, couldn't he do the same thing? I think that's the wrong question because if their circumstances were different, they wouldn't be the characters we know - Goku and Vegeta respectively. To quote one of my favourite TH-cam clips, "if my grandmother ha wheels, she would have been a bike". Vegeta never would have had the humility to train with Kami and King Kai, or to more intimately share training strategy with his son in the ROSAT. That's because Vegeta fights to be the strongest of everyone, while Goku fights to be the strongest version of himself. And that is what makes Goku numba one-da!
I think you're missing the point, Mike. Goku is meant to be Vegeta's foil or "development milestone" and seeing Goku's philosophy as a martial artist vs Vegeta's philosophy as a soldier. One tends to value life compared with the other even though Goku does kill. Although I will say even characters that value life do end up killing due to circumstances likely as part of their arc as a lot of villains challenge their philosophy. So, when Vegeta is conceding to Goku here, he's emphasizing Goku's philosophy which even included the ability to put aside ego and elitism to ask for help and learn! Given this is thematically appropriate for Dragon Ball and Vegeta's arc, Toriyama absolutely nailed it here. It's not about the victories and it's not invalidating Vegeta's solo hard work. It's about Vegeta's warlike social darwinist mentality. In a way, it ties into Dragon Ball's inspiration Journey to the West and its Buddhist core because, well, it IS a very Buddhist philosophy.
Gotta disagree I think this video is biased towards only looking at what supports Vegeta. I don’t think Vegeta ever surpassed Goku outside of Zenkai during Namek and him going into the ROST first both of which are relevant on timing. I agree that initially Vegeta was superior and it was impressive that he made up the gap between them when he first became a SSJ but the gap between them outside of Goku having SSJ wasn’t that big. Goku was 3 million and Vegeta would be around 2 million considering 2nd form Frieza is over 1 mil. Gohan surpassed 3rd form Frieza at a point and he couldn’t react to final Frieza while Vegeta could. Vegeta used more intense gravity to make up this difference while Goku was training with people far weaker than him. I like to think they were equal around this time. Goku was nerfed against 19 so when Piccolo says he seemed stronger that’s only relative to him being nerfed. Tien’s last comment implied Goku at full strength could be stronger but that even if he was it can’t be by much Yes Goku had Gohan during the ROST but Gohan was fodder coming into it. He had to spend time bringing him up and Gohan didn’t even realize he was stronger than Goku so there was clearly never a point where he pressed him critically. Then you have to consider that Goku was still stronger than Vegeta even after he got a 2nd time in the chamber Saying Goku only surpassed him while dead because his body could recover better is a good argument on paper but it’s never emphasized in the narrative. Especially when Vegeta says he thought he pushed himself harder than he did. King Kai and so on wouldn’t have been able to teach Goku anything at that point. Goku was his own master which is why as another video I watched earlier explains he removes the symbol from his Gi. So I think it’s clear at that point the reason Goku surpassed him was in fact just because he’s more gifted. Vegeta rivaling and surpasses Goku after the Manga ends isn’t canon to all of this You could argue it was Vegeta who had advantages early on and Goku was simply playing catch up throughout the series. If Goku grew up as a generic Saiyan maybe he would have been stronger than Vegeta from the start
So when Goku gets ahead according to you its always because of a special reason but not Vegeta? How about Goku and Vegeta were both raised as real Saiyans and Goku gets the intense moulding Vegeta gets from King Vegeta also Frieza. And Vegeta wins all their fights? Goku felt pity because he had SSJ3 and was just holding back. This video is biased.
Also after the Goku sacrifice and Gohan Kamehameha vs Cell, there is a moment where Vegeta was so shocked by Goku sacrifice that he was saying that he will not be a warrior anymore. P.S.: always Vegeta in Cell saga "it Is painfully clear at this point that no one among this group is stronger than Kakarot is, not even myself".
Vegeta didn't had kame senin, Karin, kami, kaio. And the first probably taught goku the most important things a fighter can learn. How to really maximize fighting. Vegeta just figured it out on his own. Like sensing ki.
Vegeta didn't "figure it out" until he saw the Earth fighters do it. He didn't know that such a skill existed at any point before then, and he literally said that he got it from them.
I swear the show gaslights you into thinking that goku is so much better than vegeta but if you actually watch vegeta does everything on his own while goku is always getting some stupid magical shit that makes him stronger
What? The only magical thing Goku had consumed was the ultra divine water. But even that was only a last resort. Goku never took anything magical since. What are you talking about?
I like the newer analogy in Super that Goku is more suited to learn "angel stuff" as Beerus calls it, and Vegeta is more suited to God of Destruction stuff. That being, Goku is a prime candidate to master Ultra Instinct and Vegeta, on the other hand, is the perfect being to master Ultra Ego. In that sense, Goku is more aligned with the angel's way of thinking, and Vegeta with the hakai power. I believe Goku's power has always derived from his pureness of spirit--it's how he was able to ride kinto-un and become the first Super Saiyan in a millennium. With all that, angels are more powerful than the gods. Or at least, they are better at using their power, such that even if a god may technically be more powerful than an angel, the general abilities and techniques of the angels are still unbeatable even if outclassed power-wise As Goku has aligned himself more with the angel's ways, even if Vegeta may acheive superior battle power, Goku's technique will always be superior.
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I consider them equal. Goku just had a better training regimen. Vegeta is the guy who goes to the gym everyday thinking you rest your body when you sleep. Lol
I think it has something to do with Goku having this carefree way of approaching fights. I’m pretty sure Whis said something like this to both Goku and Vegeta.
as a kid, i always thought the same thing. especially since vegeta is my fav character. As geekdom says when a character’s is not a gary s it makes the character much more interesting. Vegeta always trained on his own and still kept up. goku had all these masters and vegeta did not. great video
That's not a penalty to Goku really tho, or his story. Gary S is heavy handed analysis to that statement. Vegeta is no victim. He could have found some masters and he did, much much much later. Goku is no Gary sue, he just chose to be more receptive of others to improve which is a lesson we could all learn from and makes him just as interesting if not more than the guy who stubbornly ego rides everyone to oblivion nearly multiple times.
@@cmath6454 the correct term is gary stu not sue but good points counterpoint: all vegeta had for the entirety of og dragonball and the beginning of z as an excuse for a master was freeza
@@cyberdemon6517 That is true but when you compare the time he spent under Frieza to the time he spent under Goku it becomes miniscule. That is like saying this 50 year old gymnist who trained under another and both had a different mindset needs to be coddled because he grew up differently than the other. Vegeta got his gifts from that. You can't discredit the power of Frieza and Vegeta proactively explored zenkai's his own biology and worked in some extents with Goku to defeat Frieza and continued the rest of his martial life working with Goku or at least the Z fighters that built Goku. As I said, Vegeta is no victim.
its cause he was a super elite class saiyan. born with a high battle power. highest on the saiyan planet... until a certain legendary was born sometime later.
In my opinion Vegeta is by far the better martial artist. He is militaristic in his training. The only flaw in this is that he focuses way too much on trying to predict every possible scenario in every possible encounter. Goku always seems to be ahead of Vegeta because he doesn’t focus on preparing for scenarios. He keeps a small amount of his power, skills or abilities available to react to unexpected situations. Goku is simply more flexible in his fighting style than Vegeta.
Go back and watch the majin Vegeta fight. You will notice clearly Goku was a better H2H combatant but Goku was impressed by Vegeta's skill and even told him he learned a few tricks
@@Tariq-nv5gj That just shows he had more skill, grappling is a martial art lol. You've only just proved the other guy's point. He got Goku in holds he couldn't get out of easily. Anyone can punch and kick but not grapple.
I think In the idea of being a stronger warrior: Vegeta having similar trainings from the same starting point, he would actually live up to what he says about being an “Elite” Saiyan warrior. Although the rank system kinda doesn’t truly exist as yes potential varies but the way it’s dispersed is unrealistic. There should be more mid-class saiyans versus elite and low class. It’s cuz of a unique thing called averages. But if they both had the exact same training from day 1, vegeta would remain The strongest of full blooded saiyans. Gohan remains with the most potential although it wouldn’t really matter to him as he’s more into being a human and living a peaceful life. If you’re talking philosophy then Goku wins because his philosophy is viewed as virtuous or correct.
Does the fight on Earth cause a retcon of sorts. On Namek they say his power level is around 18,000? Or was that just an assumption? If his power level was just 18,000 on earth and Goku's was 8,000 pre kaio ken with it x3 he would be stronger than Vegeta right?
If Vegeta says Goku is better, Vegeta is credentialed enough to make that claim being his Saiyan biology and decades of fighting around and WITH Goku. So that does basically say Goku is better when the man himself claims it.
I don't know. I could go into detail with this but when it came to the Vegeta and Goku power dynamic Goku seemed to be the more efficient trainer. Goku practically increased his power level by 20 fold while on King Kai's planet. If he trained on Earth, he would at best be half that and no Kaio Ken or Spirit Bomb. It's all circumstances. The one truly big thing that really does put Goku above Vegeta is their respective times in the Room of Spirit of Time. Both of them went in with their half Saiyan sons. Goku even went in with one that didn't know how to become SSJ. But Vegeta left there knowing about Grade 2 and 3, but used Grade 2. Goku figured Grade 2 and 3 on his own and went a different path. Goku didn't know anything about what was going on outside that room. He did it without outside help. Yes Gohan was an effictive training partner. But so would have been Trunks of Vegeta fully used that option.
Would have been nice if, instead of trying to surpass him in super, he just wanted to keep from getting left behind. To be able to roughly keep up with him and also be able to fight because he’s still a full-blooded saiyan and they live for that.
Vegeta is a prince and Kakorot is a low class warrior. Goku should be nowhere near thw same power level as a prince. Vegeta had the chance to learn from others but refuse to take help from weaklings. Goku is always a student to martial arts as Vegeta was always looking for raw power. Vegeta learned from Goku, which is why Goku is better from Vegeta's stand point.
I would definitely disagree with namek. Goku was clearly stronger. Vegeta's Senkai boost was abnormal. it was slightly stronger than cheese and not as strong as ginyu. So Vegeta didn't even have 120k and thanks to a Senkai boost, he had about as much as Freezer in the first form, i.e. 530k? So vegeta strengthens itself more than 5 times more with a Senkai boost? no thanks^^ you shouldn't take it too seriously. Among the Androids, Vegeta was slightly stronger than Goku. Goku doesn't fight to destroy like Vegeta. He could have defeated C19 but Goku fights to have fun and see what his opponent can do. Vegeta saw the fight and had the advantage of knowing that he had to win quickly against C19. He said himself that he had no energy left after the fight and clearly lost against C20. With the training in the space of mind and time, Goku was alone. He was the one who trained Gohan and came up with the ideas. Gohan just had the talent and Goku knew how to take advantage of it. In the Boo Saga, Goku was clearly stronger. In my translation, Vegeta says that even as SSJ2 he didn't give his all because he didn't believe that Vegeta was really evil and he certainly didn't want to stop or destroy him. He only gave enough energy to give what Vegeta wanted. That's why Vegeta later said that Goku is number 1. he was just much stronger and a genius when it came to fighting and overtook him. Vegeta recognized and acknowledged that there, which was wonderful for Vegeta and a character development that he recognized, that you can also be strong through hard training and Goku was a fighting genius and yet not such a low level scam that he always thought .
Goku is way better than Vegeta. One thing people forget is that Vegeta never really trained until after Namek. Vegeta didn't really know how to train. All he really did was copy Goku's gravity training and try to simulate fights. He was more of a warrior than a martial artist like Goku. Goku knows how to train effectively. He had masters teach him. Vegeta never had that, so Vegeta learned by watching Goku. Goku was sort of Vegeta's first martial arts master. Not directly, but every step of Vegeta's progression came from watching Goku do it. It wasn't until training with Whis, the TOP, and training under Beerus did Vegeta actually branch out on his own.
Vegeta's time chamber training was WAY less effective than Goku's. Goku got head and shoulders stronger while also training Gohan up and leaving months early. Vegeta didn't really know how to train. He made it up as he went along (often just copying Goku's gravity training). Goku had decades of teaching from several masters to go off.
I like how in your vegeta videos your putting respect on my mans Vegeta. Its popular to clown him for L's which he wouldn't receive if it wasn't for his cockiness and ego. Put that aside he would've been got more Ws.
😮i still dont understand why Vegeta always wanted to train alone ....his whole life...and don't understand why goku is stronger but if 156 days = 1000 years on earth multiply times 7 which would of been 7000 Earth 🌎 years of training.i point it out because Goku should be stronger...when did he reach SS3
The huge powerup Goku got on Namek makes NO sense. How does he jump from 90k to 3 million with ONE zenkai boost??? Vegeta got multiple boosts yet only reached 2.5 million.... PLOT ARMOR BS. The fact that Goku only got to 8k after all that training with king kai shows a VERY inconsistent power growth potential...
One interesting thing to my ears is the point brought up at 11:15. Like… it always bugs me that as I remember and he said Vegeta says he gave up FIGHTING. that always makes me think… to a royal prince of the warrior saiyan’s race, give up FIGHT intrinsically means he gave up training? Like, he would completely stop training, just because he decided never to fight again? Or training became so much of he’s routine that he would keep on training even if he had no intention of ever fight again?! To me, that was never that clear.
Great points, I've often thought that Vegeta could theoretically be on Goku's level. In terms of genetic potential, I think they're equal or Vegeta is even greater. However, I think we've consistently seen that Vegeta likely won't win unless he has a power advantage (which he is capable of attaining, tbf). What separates Goku is the fact that he started off weak and was gradually introduced to tougher opponents to mold him and build his confidence while he received training from several masters; this forced him from a young age to learn the foundational principles and skills of martial arts, elite fighting IQ, and it taught him fighting resilience. He also has an insatiable desire and optimism to get better paired with the know-how to get better. Because of these factors, if Goku's power level is equal to his opponent he will almost certainly find a way to win. Vegeta on the other hand grew up overwhelming his opponents and he had to play catch up to Goku in learning the intangibles (which by the end of Z he has done to a large degree). He's still elite in these categories, and his intensity matches Goku's, but his genius isn't quite up to Goku's level (no one is, really). To give some sports analogies: Goku is Michael Jordan and Vegeta is a mixture of Allen Iverson and Kobe Bryant. Or to go with fighting, Goku is Evander Holyfield and Vegeta is Mike Tyson. These analogies are helpful because I think that Kobe could theoretically beat Jordan in the NBA finals at his best if he performed perfectly, and Mike Tyson could beat Evander when his intangibles were at their peak, but the genius, mastery, instincts and guts of MJ and Evander make it very, very difficult to overcome them even if their abilities are equaled.
Funnily enough people don't bring this up but even in the Battle of Gods movie or early DBS, Vegeta with just Super Saiyan 2 surpassed not only Goku's Super Saiyan 3 (when he was training on Earth alone), but also surpassed Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks and Ultimate Gohan to fight against Beerus, where he took actual hits from Beerus and (it changes depending on the anime adaptation and the movie) Beerus beat Gohan with no effort using chopsticks, and beat Gotenks like he was a literal human child, it shows that even with the advantages Goku has for training, Vegeta could always catch up or surpass him. (also forgot to mention that in the DBS Manga, just as people thought the moment Vegeta gets any training Goku has, he's generally better with it as seen with the Yardiatian's techniques he learned in under a year while Goku himself took a decent bit of time to learn how to use Instant Transmission, Vegeta not only learned that but Spirit Fission in a short amount of time, it does hurt to see how they handled Vegeta in DBS though because no matter what he does, he never truly gets to make a strong impact in the arc, Goku's always the one to end it so it makes me question why they gave Vegeta all these things to begin with...)
Sooo Vegeta didn’t surpass goku by having krillin fatally wound him and get get healed by dende. Vegeta didn’t have the Equipment at capsule corp and like 400x earths gravity for 3 years. Vegeta had help along the way as well.
Nice Vid! May I present another angle ? Goku beat Vegeta in their first fight, not only because gohan is his son and there fore "of him", but in their believe: Vegeta's "I stand supreme" vs Goku's believe "This planet will be protected, no matter what." Guess what, Goku won, the fights in Dragonball are not about strength...
Goku is number one. Since their 1st fight Vegeta is either always trying to catch up to Goku. Become stronger for a few episodes. Only to once again fall behind. He never defeats the main villain or foe of any saga. Which is usually left up to Goku to try to defeat. And Dragon Ball Super clearly states on random episodes. From Whis, Beerus, Top, Champa and even Bulma that Goku is more formidable than Vegeta. Goku is number one.
Heh this Vegeta propaganda. Trying to diminish Goku going from 3 times weaker than Vegeta, to continually stronger. Yea Goku was better. At that moment. And continually. And Vegeta pointed out why. Remember how much that hurts Vegeta's pride that an inferior just becomes so much stronger. Saying Vegeta was stronger when Goku hadn't gotten a chance to train, but he became stronger than Vegeta's two years of training. And then his 7 years of training. Using your logic. Vegeta grew up around stronger people, with Saiyan/freeza force training, and was still weaker than Goku or surpassed by him. Goku wasn't training with a master in particular even if Kaio was there. Goku had already exceeded Kaio's training. And got a new emblem signifying that he was his own master by the time he lands on Namek. Vegeta was born with advantages. And Vegeta often chose to be by himself.
This is not really directly related, but I have never been able to shake off my dislike about the power level numbers, and it all bubbled up again when they were mentioned in the video regarding Sayan saga. The concept of power levels presented as numbers is just completely fine and as you have pointed previously they were used as a narrative tool. But the way the numbers are just living their own crazy reality with how insanely high they start getting according to the power scaling community. Goku like, what, roughly gains 50X in power between when he starts his trip to Namek and escapes Namek? People train all the time in the universe and have trained since forever, yet at the end of the Buu Saga I'm pretty sure Tien's power level would make him a god among men compared to the beginning of the Z. Did people just never train in the Dragon Ball universe or what, if some years of vigorous training can give you explosive gains like that? Did Sayans never just Zenkai boost the shit out of themselves into astronomical numbers or were they a young race of people that never had the opportunity for that? Basically, I think my issue with the power levels at the most basic level is that if you consider the numbers in a linear fashion, it's insane and makes little sense. If the power numbers don't follow a linear trajectory (logarithmic? or is it reverse of that?), they would make way more sense to me. So, say that going from 100K to 1M doesn't actually make the character 10X more powerful but just 2X more powerful, each time the number increases 10X, the actual power difference increases 2X. That would make the insane power scaling numbers make more sense to me, but that's obviously not the most sensible way to represent the power scales overall (linear would be more easily understandable by most people, it's a nicer way to present them!), and if you view the current power scaling numbers created by the fanbase with this sort of lense, this sort of revised view on the numbers is not going to work at all with the current numbers (consider people come up with power scaling numbers based on observed relative differences between known characters, so with something like Piccolo's and Android 17's current power scale numbers their actual power difference would be practically nonexistent). I don't know, rant over I guess. No problem with the actual video topic 👍
When it comes to Vegeta he ends up defeating and killing Henchmen and Minions more in DBZ than Goku if I count Puipui, Android 19, Dodoria, Zarbon and continues the trend of defeating and killing Henchmen and enemies who aren't as strong as the main Enemy or main villains in DBS if I count Ginyu in Tagoma''s body, Toppo/Top and the other fighters from over univeses in that universal survival tournament and still continues that trend of not being able to defeat and kill main villains and main enemies if I count Frieza, Jiren and Manga Villains after the DBS anime ended.
I mean vageta has the natural advantage of genetics. That is one of the biggest advantage in DB. Just look at how genetics help gohan, freeza, and broly.
It's funny Prince Vegeta never lost to Son Goku but always wanted a rematch
In Vegeta eyes what he would consider a win at that point is killing his enemies and Goku severely damaged Vegeta pride so it never felt like a win
Whats even more funny is that in the first fight he probably didnt even need Oozaru since Goku was burnt out after the beam struggle. Its almost a blessing Vegeta couldn't sense energy until Namek.
Obviously.....
@@KingR1P yeah but he probably wanted to prove Kakarot never had a chance or prove that he should have joined him
@XZAVIER-DAA-GOD i would argue that Vegeta feeling like he had to go to Oozaru because he assumed Goku still had that Kaioken power was enough to bruise his ego. If I remember right, when he was in the sky fully enraged he was pissed he had to transform more than he lost the beam struggle.
Vegeta’s perception of Goku has always been a little strange.
On Earth, Vegeta was way stronger. He lost his composure and went into Great Ape form, but Goku couldn’t even lift his arms after the Kaioken x4. He could have beaten him if he stayed calm.
Then when Goku arrived in Namek, Vegeta was shocked and convinced himself that Goku was a Super Saiyan. In reality, this was post-Senzu Vegeta who would later go on to display a PL of around 250,000. Goku’s base at that point was 90,000. Vegeta is far far stronger, but is literally freaking himself out over this.
These 2 moments in particular, Vegeta would reflect on as his great humiliations in his life. Which is just bizarre because he was literally more powerful than Goku.
ya cause when goku arrived vegeta was already wreck'd by recoom and saw how much more powerful goku was since earth.
then seeing him one shot recoom. the guy who just bodied him earlier. ya his freak outs were logical. lol. plus ptsd from his battle
on earth with goku n friends. he was still in shock a low level class could rise up to have so much power...
when vegeta himself training so hard in his life couldnt reach what goku had it seems. to that point. tho goku was using capsule
corp gravity hax. which vegeta himself would later use and abuse to attain his power up and ss. so it all works out. 😆
namek saga is went dbz power scaling got crazy tho.
Yeah, no.
After the kaioken X4 not only Goku was weakened, Vegeta was too. Remember that Gohan was able to fight him later on? And Goku wasn't inable to move like you said.
If Vegeta didn't turned into his Great Ape form, Goku would've found a way.
And at the Namek saga, Goku using Kaoiken power level was 180.000 but remember that he could use it x10 then, so he was way stronger than Vegeta.
@@juliocabral6949 in Ch 38, a pat on the back from Yajirobe caused Goku to scream out in pain. He then says he’s at his limit after the Kaioken x4. Then King Kai says even without Vegeta’s Oozaru form, he may be more than enough for Goku. Their only hope is the Spirit Bomb.
If Vegeta had just taken care of business in that moment, there’s minimal chance Goku could have charged up a Spirit Bomb in front of Vegeta like that. That hypothetical situation doesn’t actually matter and is irrelevant to my point. Vegeta’s perception of these events is discordant with what actually happened.
Also Goku can use the Kaioken x10 but that also doesn’t matter because Vegeta is astounded at Goku’s base form - which is 90,000. He got up to 180k by maintaining a Kaioken x2. Once again, his perception is discordant with reality. That’s my point. Not who would win in a fight.
It's not true that Goku couldn't raise his arms after the 4x Kaioken. Goku attempted the Spirit Bomb after Vegeta went Great Ape, but Vegeta interrupted him before he could fire it.
Vegeta was nowhere near that strong when he saw Goku. He was weaker than the Ginyu force.
Goku went from being way weaker to being way stronger than him. Him being freaked out isn't weird.
He was in denial and was trying to be the super Saiyan too. He didn't want Goku to do it, and didn't want to accept that Goku could surpass him.
Main difference is Goku never sold his soul to get a power boost haha he put his life on the line by drinking the true sacred water to get a power up, but that was to save the world from King Piccolo.
TBH you could say Goku wanted revenge for Krillin's death being his main motivator. However, it was still a less selfish reason than Vegeta wanting to relive the glory days due to a midlife crisis....
One impressive feat is that Vegeta was able to achieve SSJ God without the special ceremony.
That was never explained how but ok.
@@juliocabral6949 sure, but I don't have enough fingers to count the amount of stuff that wasn't explained Super in general
ya kinda weird. but then vegeta being a special class of saiyan himself. born with a high battle power... second highest next to broly.
makes sense he could find a hax way.
Yeah its called a retcon 💀
@@GojoTheHonoredOne9 goku has his perfect ki memory, learing techniclsk by seoing them once, its never stated directly but pretty evident, my head cannon is Vegeta has something similar but for forms. If he see a form he can match it but he has toi see it first. thats why hes always last to unlock new milestone forms. He needs to see it to replicate it
Idk....i think people kind of underestimate that beat down Goku put on Vegeta right before he chose to blow the planet up. Go back and watch that fight...it ranks as one of the most SAVAGE beat downs Goku has ever given. Goku suplexed him and turned it into a backbreaker, pummeled him with a series of haymakers and then drove Vegeta's body into the edge of a mountain with his knee driven into his back(which had Vegeta realing in pain holding his stomach). I think because Vegeta was so hurt he had to turn ape. In that sense....Goku one that one on one/hand to hand.
Excuse me? Vegeta Beat Goku's Ass in all of their fights outside of sparring that we did not see. That's one of the biggest irony's about Vegeta's inferiority complex. Despite literally winning every fight against Goku he loses to Enemies that Goku or Gohan beat.
@@Darien4life lol he didn’t literally win every fight. Vegeta needed to transform into a monster to overcome Kaio ken. The second fight Goku was basically playing around with Vegeta. Vegeta didn’t win the SSJ2 fight because he snuck Goku after he agreed to help fight Buu.
Few things:
Vegeta trained with Whis for months before Goku arrived, and he still caught up in a short time.
Vegeta got SSJ4 with Bulma’s help in GT.
I still believe Goku threw the fight in the Super Hero movie.
No Vegeta is the one who caught up as Goku was a super Saiyan god after undergoing the ritual, Vegeta trained and attained it without the ritual, and Goku didn't throw the fight he simply just lost to Vegeta again.
I do too
LOL ok Vegeta was stronger than Goku in SSB before he got UI Vegetas base has been stronger than Gokus for awhile. They're once again dead even it seems he definitely didn't throw the fight.
The idea that Goku never kills... I mean hell people, the man killed his own brother.
Piccolo would never been able to hit the Beam Cannon (I don't know how to spell the Japanese name lol) on Raditz if Goku hadn't held the man in place.
It might be a last resort for Goku to kill, but he does kill people.
Edit: gotta say I jumped the gun and this was well-covered in the latter part of the video. But I still hold that the Super writers are big wimpy loser scribble babies. GT less so.
While I appreciate this thorough breakdown on the paths Goku and Vegeta took in their improvement as combatants, in-context we all do know that Vegeta was commenting on Goku's character and integrity when he made his speech during the Kid Buu fight. Vegeta's entire arc was about recognizing how his unhealthy mindset is what held him back from achieving his goals. This WOULD have been where Vegeta was truly on his own path and free from comparing himself to others... if the GT/Super writers had any guts..
As soon as I seen the title I clicked because this is becoming more of a debate as Vegeta’s character matures
A great breakdown as always and I think when Vegeta talks about his loss to Goku during the Sayian Saga it was two fold. First Goku matched Vegeta in terms of strength where Vegeta couldn't beat Goku in his present form and needed to change into the Oozure so that would be a defeat for Vegeta even though he left Goku a broken heap by the end. The second while Vegeta beat Goku he still lost to Gohan and Krillin so while Vegeta won the battle with Goku he lost the wat for the Earth which given Vegeta's pride he would call that a loss.
Like you said, Goku had a lot of training that helped him get stronger whereas Vegeta trained himself and earned battle experience.
I think that's why Vegeta was so surprised that someone who lost to Raditz was suddenly as strong as Nappa. Typical Saiyans are too proud to ask for help so when they're born weak they're expected to stay that way
Vegeta is still mad that Goku went Super Saiyan first to fight Frieza, what Vegeta wanted his whole life turning him evil just to redeem the saiyans yet both Trunks his half human son and Goku still killed frieza and Goku brought him back to life so Vegeta is trying to get to Frieza one last time before he loses his chance again, Vegeta is always trying to catch up
Vegeta suffers from imposter syndrome and has an inferiority complex which is why is pride and ego is so fragile. Also why is hangs onto the title of prince and considers Goku low class.
Son Goku is my favorite character but I find Prince Vegeta, Future Trunks & Piccolo Jr as more interesting characters & even Lord Frieza and Perfect Cell
About what you said where translators don't always directly translate what sounds like English to Japanese, this used to bother me a lot.
But in learning Japanese, I find that most Japanese people don't actually understand english. They use english words that don't mean what they are. For example, the Japanese word マンション (mansion) actually means apartment. Why? Who knows.
And deeper than that, it's not certain that any English "equivalent" words can convey the full Japanese meaning. We can often only loosely translate what is being said, if at all.
You'd be surprised how much nuance is simply chopped off from JP to ENG because there's no way (or maybe no concise way) to say some things in English.
And finally, in the case of "number 1" being translated to "the champion", perhaps the translator thought this translation fit better. We have to consult the emotion and who is saying it when translating. It's not always straight-forward. And ofc, sometimes the translation sucks.
I disagree with translations all the time, but it's the price you pay if you don't read directly from the source.
There isn't any real explanation to be had here. Vegeta was decisively stronger than Goku for most of their lives.
The real difference lies in the amount of work they did. From birth until he fought Goku, Vegeta got AT MOST one zenkai boost. Does very little, if anything, to improve his power that he was given since birth.
In the first twenty years of his life, Goku gets what, two or so DOZEN zenkais? Then picks up about a dozen MORE in the next five years? Oh let's also throw in the fact that Goku trains under FIVE different masters before he turns 25. How many masters does Vegeta train under? Oh that's right, he doesn't train under ANYONE. Until DBSuper, but I don't count it as canon.
Give Vegeta that many zenkais for the first 25 years of HIS life and that boy would likely be ssj2 BEFORE the Freeza saga. And THAT was why Freeza wanted to keep his eyes on Vegeta. Cuz he knew this. Knew that Vegeta, born with a power level of 10k, could possibly grow up to match or even be better than Freeza.
I don't think it was a good point to boil down Goku being stronger than Vegeta after training in the room of spirit and time because he was training with Gohan who had the most potential, as a sparring partner. Because he trained with Gohan and Piccolo for 3 years and Vegeta still lapped him when they were training for the androids. The reason why Goku was way stronger is because he's the better marital artist. Vegeta was using ssj grade 2 while Goku was using ssj grade 4. Goku realized how to best use ssj and when Vegeta saw that, it came as a total shock to him that he figured out how to stay in ssj without it draining his stamina. And even with this revelation, Vegeta went back in and still didn't surpass Goku. Also Goku was spending time trying to catch Gohan up to ssj, so he was naturally not spending every moment pushing himself to his limit like Vegeta was. That is until Gohan caught up. Even then Goku was in the room of spirit and time for 10 months, while Vegeta spent a year the first go around training non stop to his limit, and then went for another round of two years. Goku reached a level in just 10 months, that Vegeta couldn't touch with 3 years of training mainly because Goku is a way better marital artist. Think about it, when Vegeta has a clear advantage in most fights he's calculated. But when he's overwhelmed he makes stupid mistakes and starts charging at his opponents or ki spamming. While Goku remains calm in a fight, even when overwhelmed. Goku is just a better marital artist and that's his real advantage over Vegeta. It's why he was able to unlock ultra instinct basically on his own and Vegeta had to have Beerus tell him how to get ultra ego.
It seems based ok the evidence. That Vegeta is actual more gifted than Goku. And that Goku through him being able to do so many mystical training sessions in comparison was only able to close the gap.
The evidence to me is overwhelming that Goku is better. The hyperbolic time chamber proved that. He knows how to train better than him, granting him more power. It doesn't matter if he trains with other people...what matters is the gains. He's not more powerful by birth, but rather, he is just an overall better fighter and knows how to train himself better. If both were to be left alone to their own devices and given 100 years to train, I would put my money on Goku coming out on top.
I completely disagree with your takes here as training up 300x gravity is a MASSIVE edge it’s impossible to equate which is better between that and a dead body
At that moment in time Vegeta admitted what was true and remained true until he reached ssj4
Yes I am leaving out super cause I fucking hate super
I'd argue that Vegeta is being truthful when he said he could never beat Goku. Because he has a very strict definition of victory.
To Vegeta; Its not enough to beat someone in terms of having raw power. He needs to win the fight absolutely. The fact that he was defeated in a group effort meant he was defeated and thus not a victory.
He didn't win against Goku when he went Majin because they mutually postponed it. And he cheap shotted Goku to go alone.
The only reason why they beat Vegeta the first time wss because of Yajirobe
That's a fact goku was inferior at that point great ape gg goku gets squished without help
That's kind of the point the show was establishing. Goku for all his strength is not driven by his ego. He can rely on his friends when his own strength isn't enough to win the day. With vegeta well... just ask nappa
@@NewAgeSlaves The fight could have dragged and Vegeta would have beat Goku without transforming. Goku's power level going into that fight was 8500, which he was able to manipulate with Kaio Ken at the expense of his power going down permanently after. Vegeta was at 16k which he was able to temporarily bump up to 18k with the Galik Gun.
Thing is, Vegeta didn't really understand that, didn't want to leave anything to chance, didn't know the full extent of Goku's Kaio Ken, and wanted to end things right then and there. Which is why he decided to transform.
Yajirobe sweep
3:32 Goku = 416 power level pre-Raditz
Yajirobe = 970 during Vegeta fight
So Yajirobe could have bodied both Goku and Piccolo in their pre-Raditz states... and accomplish every single feat Goku did in Dragon Ball, such as running up Korin's tower and probably Snake Way too. Yajirobe is basically a god if we're going by just original Dragon Ball's scope. As a point of reference, farmer with a shotgun's power level is 5, Master Roshi (#1 martial artist in the world in his time) is 139, Colonel Silver is 200, King Piccolo is 260
I like to believe that Vegeta admitting Goku is number one is more so symbolizing him getting over his inferiority complex/insecurity. Goku beat a lot of enemies that Vegeta couldn’t beat, and while Vegeta did the same thing with other enemies that Goku couldn’t fight at the time, Vegeta had a hard time admitting that anyone was stronger than him at any point in time. Like mans was literally in DENIAL any time he was bested or surpassed. He hated the fact that he wasn’t the strongest at all times, so I like to believe that rather than cementing Goku as always being the strongest, this scene was more of Vegeta admitting and being okay with the fact that someone is better than him at that point in time, showing some humility, and getting over his inferiority complex.
ya then comes along dbs in all its glory and says...NOPE! I STILL NEED TO DEFEAT KAKAROTT.
but yay new forms for vegeta. so i like. 😁
He did respect Gohan tho.
Then Super comes and entirely erases that.
Thanks Super for regressing your two main characters (Goku and Vegeta) :)
@@jandjhroco he respected him but it still pissed him off that Gohan was stronger and was hard for him to accept.
@@BoriquaBoY34 Honestly, no. He seemingly gets more pissed off that Gohan slacks on his training than he does at Gohan being stronger.
I always thought that it was Goku’s mindset that made him “the best”. And it was a Vegeta adopting his mindset at the end of the Buu saga that won day
More like how teachers...Vegeta only had one teacher Goku was trained by-king Kai,kami,roshi,Gohan, yardrats
Goku grew exponentially since he had increasingly talented mentors. Grandpa Gohan, Master Roshi, Kami, King Kai, etc.
Vegeta did it by himself and kept up with Goku for the whole series and I find that quite impressive. I think Vegeta has more natural talent and would have grown even more in power if he took a similar route to Goku and learned from others. I think that's why they're about even in power in super is because he's not doing it all on his own anymore.
He did it by himself? Vegeta was the strongest Sayian on planet Vegeta. He was stronger than his father, as a child. He had access to Freeza's technology, Saibamen and was flavored above all Sayians, giving him access to challenging planets. There is no doubt that Vegeta works hard. However, he was following Goku's example. He got the idea from Goku to train above 100 times gravity to eventually become Super Saiyan. Vegeta was actually stronger than Goku before they went into the room of spirit and time and Goku blew past Vegeta. He saw the flaw in the route that Vegeta took (without even knowing that Vegeta took it) and figured that perfecting Super Sayian, until it was their natural state, was the key to unlocking Super Saiyan 2. Vegeta understood during Goku's fight with Buu, that however powerful Vegeta would became, Goku would eventually surpass him.
ya cause he was born with a higher battle power. a super elite class saiyan... raw natural power goes to vegeta.
but goku had gods trainings him and buffing him with their techniques. until ss but then god ki became a thing and UI and so on.
dbz era goku was the better fighter tho. even with the outcome of the first battle. goku put hurt on vegeta being a low level class
power in hundreds. to thousands in months. thanks to kai. but still that training isnt easy and he did it. he has natural talent like
vegeta too. then he also could have wrecked cell if he choose to ascened to ss2 but let gohan go at it instead. somethin vegeta
sadly didnt realize in his own time with trunks in the rosat. choosing instead to settle for a inbetween form.
story logic of goku or gohan needing to save the day aside. lol. its odd for a saiyan of vegetas calibur and combat understanding
to just not realize there could be a perfect'd form beyond his super vegeta state.
then we have the epic ss3. if we go by vegeta never stopped training either until buu show'd up. no logical reason he couldnt tap
into ss3 at some point either. except maybe the hax of haivng dead body. but thats lame cause saiyan body is made for combat
efficiency. and we see gotenks get ss3 so u can achieve it in a living body. just gotta work on the stamina drain tho. like gold freeza
did. but it is attainable. still goku again had the knowledge and got to it first. dbz era goku was the one step above vegeta always.
but now dbs pretty much closes the gap with these two tho and makes them near equals.
the better fighter idk. it be a close fight for sure. probably ending in both destroying each other in a epic battle on a secluded planet somewhere.
where they can go all out and finally settle it. the planet ends up bcoming a supernova as a result. like in the dragonball online story. i hope it becomes
canon someday. lol.
I kinda agree with you, but i think vegeta 's biggest weakness was his pride and the fact he didnt let anyone help him, Super kinda show some growth towards that, vegeta is my favorite and i like his pride, but i am force to recongnize that at some point in the story, it kinda slowed him down, but DBS is awesome in that way, it show so much progression in him, just wished he did killed frieza and was the one to beat moro, i think those 2 moment would had fit perfectly, idk why the keep screwing him up, he deserve, even gohan and picolo got some shine in the last movie and it didnt made sense, Vegeta needs his moment
Vegeta was born with a luxury that Goku didn't have, so the fact that he debuted with a higher power lvl is hardly praiseworthy.
Ignoring the fact that Vegeta was born strong and Goku was born weak lmao
This is so interesting because it kinda turns the manga Shonen rival trope on its head cause as opposed to a true rivalry Vegeta has an actual inferiority complex that he can’t realize and in admitting he’s better he’s coming to terms with it in a sense
Yeah. I always thought it wasnt really the rivalry that other characters have because Goku never once cared about Vegeta being stronger than him, he was usually just supportive of it or never said anything about it. He was even the one to offer Vegeta the ROST when Vegeta couldn't figure out how to go beyond Super Saiyan after losing to 18. Ironically being the rivalry that spawned so many others in Shounen that actually are truer rivalries like Sasuke & Naruto, Yugi and Kaiba. Both sides wanted to prove themselves to each other. Goku never cared about proving himself to Vegeta. Its also why he's pure of heart. At best Goku just likes to fight Vegeta for the challenge which was what we saw when he foght Majin Vegeta, Goku enjoyed it.
Yeah, just like Goku had advantage in mentors, Vegeta had advantages with all sorts of technology, due to being part of the Freeza force. He was born with a high power level and was taken under Freeza's wing, likely given full access to the best healing chambers and got to take on challenging planets to conquer. The one big example that shows how Goku is better than Vegeta is the Room of Spirit and Time. Goku reached Vegeta's form and realized the flaw of going down that path. He realized that the key was making Super Saiyan a natural state. Vegeta was perplexed when Goku amd Gohan came out of the room. Vegeta is powerful and likely has an easier time achieving the same level of power as Goku. It's not hard to see that AT has gone out of his way to show that Vegeta is a genetic anomaly amongst the Saiyans. However, Goku is a fighting genius. He loves fighting. Not just for the thrill of beating/killing his enemies, but to constantly learn and improve his skill and power. Once Vegeta fought Goku, his goal was to surpass him. While Goku's goals are to constantly improve and surpass himself. I think Vegeta realized that there would never be a point where he would permanently surpass Goku. And given how weak Goku was and how strong Vegeta was, when they were young, to Vegeta that's an L.
Goku also had senzu beans and dragon balls his whole life, he’d be dead before he ever met Vegeta if not for that
@@sheezynation They'd all be dead without the dragonballs and senzu beans. Vegeta had Nappa, Raditz, Saibamen and Freeza force if he got into a bind. Without meeting Goku, Vegeta would've eventually challenged Freeza and died, because he would've underestimated him, like he did when they actually fought. Goku and Vegeta's power as children were so far from each other (Vegeta was stronger than his father as a kid, where Goku struggled against humans), that Goku catching up to Vegeta by the Freeza saga is an embarrassment. Vegeta is impatient, does not work well with others and would never accept help. And while we love him for that, it is a huge flaw. Goku is humble, he is honest and listens to others, which is why he recieved most of the training that he did. Most of what Vegeta had was given to him. Goku struggled the whole way until they had meet. Goku proved the difference between them in the room of spirit and time.
Magic > Technology
When vegeta calls goku number 1 it’s not about strength it’s about their viewpoints and way of life. I desperately need fans to realize that
it was about power, goku's viewpoint and way of life made goku able to outscale vegeta . Vegeta was clearly admiring his strenght tho
@@Andrea-dw1ps yes and no? It’s more about admiring that only someone so pure could get as far as he has not how hard he can punch
Even on power Goku was stronger.
@@Andrea-dw1ps yh im a vegeta and that was clearly what he was talking about
The only thing you need desperately is to accept the fact that Vegeta is not better than Goku... Vegeta was above Goku the first time they met and that was it, after that only delusional fans insist on having this conversation. How many times people throughout the show have to repeat that Goku is one step above vegeta for Vegeta fans to accept that? Hell Whiz is literally training both and he keeps saying that Goku is one step above Vegeta, so why is it so hard for Vegeta fans to listen?
Goku wasn't at first but the By the end he was
Vegeta seemed to only think this after Goku went Super Saiyan when he couldn't and did it before him. Then him having SS3, something Vegeta never heard of at the time, also shocked him after the Majin Vegeta fight. I think its more about that, and how strong Goku got after the time chamber training with Gohan. But I think its really just nothing to do with Goku being better than Vegeta at all, but just Goku training better than Vegeta for better results that Vegeta never caught on to. He was just caught up in how offended he always was that Goku was either able to do things at all despite his class or that he had trouble fighting him to begin with. Goku wasnt just someone he could one-shot the way he thinks he should do from his class and being raised on Earth, ignorant to the Saiyans. Yet so powerful.
Blue Evolution is better then Blue Kaio-Ken x20 but is UI better then UE
Think when Vegeta refers to Goku as #1 or the champion he's refering to there rivalry not the actual strongest person/entity. And Vegito would be #1 since you mentioned Gotenks. Being that they are rivals and Saiyans wouldn't think Vegeta would settle for #2. They motivate each other to get stronger, not a regression imo at least for Vegeta lol. Vegeta also isn't an "earth" Saiyan as in he didn't live there 1st part of his life. Goku and Vegeta will never change who they are completely. Goku never killed his enemies while Vegeta knew him till Yakon and Kid Buu(the time he's making his speech).Lastly Vegeta was never the person to have a master to train him until Super with Whis and that Yardrat.
crazy to think that Goku has never actually beaten Vegeta in a fight
Technically he did in the first round after Goku shot Vegeta to the sky
@@albertthepeacock8020 Before he got smushed by Oozaru?
He’s not a bad guy he don’t gotta beat em accept when the saiyan saga
@@tedhodge4830 yes
The most annoying thing about Goku vs Vegeta over the years is that the anime gaslights the audience super hard about it, despite literally all evidence directly contradicting it.
yea & gokutards like to pretend its true😂
How does vegeta's zenkai from recoome count as surpassing Goku without help? Also goku training with rests, applying his mind and figuring out a wiser path than vegeta's ascended saiyan mode, CANNOT be attributed to having gohan as a sparring partner. Goku spent more time bringing gohan from being relatively worthless to a super saiyan and then past all this ascended saiyan levels, because of his experience and insight
He’s clearly a Vegeta fan 🤷🏾♂️ in DBZ Vegeta has an ego and that stops him from having a master or training with Trunks like Goku did with Gohan
@@sascott1987 I was thinking that he might be a Vegeta fan. I do sense a bit of bias there...lol
Any Zenkai boost after a serious fight is basically being assisted by his foe. Also, he got a huge jump from about 500,000 to almost 5x that after Krillin blasted him and he was healed by Dende
Goku did not blow up a bunch of innocent people over a mid-life crisis, so yes, he is better than Vegeta.
Goku never had a mid life crisis.
@@GeteMachine Because Goku expectations and standards for himself is based on himself and not anything else. Making him better. Vegeta says its his pride at stake but he follows Goku, whereas Goku follows himself and when the bill comes due, because his mindset is more receptive to those around him he has more resources inevitably than Vegeta who at the early stuffed himself in his gravity chamber. At the beginning Vegeta was a victim to his pride and no one else.
Gokus never had a mid life. Dude hasn't changed since he was a kid
Blowing up people really doesn't mean much in Dragon Ball.
@@RedMoonLoop Goku changed a lot since he was a kid
3:32 Goku = 416 power level pre-Raditz
Yajirobe = 970 during Vegeta fight
So Yajirobe could have bodied both Goku and Piccolo in their pre-Raditz states... and accomplish every single feat Goku did in Dragon Ball, such as running up Korin's tower and probably Snake Way too
Of course Vegeta always surpasses him , he has more potential he is a prodigy a saiyan elite . Goku willing to accept training and lessons from others is what always kept him afloat !
Thank you for pointing out the difference in training/training opportunities! Totally makes sense 👌🏾
Vegeta was cursed by not being the main character
Goku trained Gohan to reach his potential to kill cell Vegeta didnt train Trunks, Trunks found out his form had a big weakness, so thetefore Goku is better, he trained his 11 year old son to kill a major villain in DBZ
It's odd how often Vegeta is said to be weaker than or behind Goku, but more often than not, it's been the opposite. The only time Goku really did better than Vegeta was training for Cell, as he was stronger than Vegeta even after Vegeta went into the Room of Spirit and Time the second time, which you'd think would have been enough to surpass Goku.
Or be closer I want to know will we see them fight at full power
I think that Vegeta reference to Kakarot sparing his enemies is just based on what he seen from the low class Saiyan. He’s only ever seen him fight Nappa, Recoome, Jeice and Burter, Freiza, Android 19, Cell, Yakon (only time witnessing Goku kill somebody) before that monologue when fighting Buu. Vegeta and Gohan killed the other names (mostly Vegeta but still)
My bad Trunk capped Freiza
Vegeta was naturally more powerful then goku, and it's not like Vegeta doesn't train so he should in theory be stronger then goku
But Vegeta didn't really know how to train. All he really did was beat up his body with gravity. That's not martial arts training. That's just strength training. Goku's training is way more effective because he learned from multiple masters how to train properly. Vegeta just tried to copy what Goku did with gravity training.
@@shmeebs387 not at all, Prince Vegeta is a warrior, he learns in battle, he did what Goku did push himself harder, and Vegeta took advantage of zenkai boost, Goku is a martial artist who is taught by 5 masters untill he became the master, if Vegeta didn't know how to train he wouldn't have came up with all his techniques. Vegeta is not Gohan or Trunks he knows how to train effectively
@@XZAVIER-DAA-GOD But we know Frieza never trained, and he had plenty of techniques. That's not really proof of anything.
Goku criticizes Vegeta's training methods several times. Maybe not directly, but he does. In the time chamber, he talks about how just pushing your body physically isn't enough, which is all Vegeta really did. It's the whole Turtle School ethos "move well, study well, play well, eat well, rest well." Vegeta only really did the first one, move well, maybe studied a little by watching Goku.
The biggest argument against this was Goku and Gohan achieving in ~10 months the Mastered SSJ and and remaining stronger than Vegeta even after 2 years in the ROST.
We can also apply your theory on how the Zenkai boosts work, and say that Goku was able to multiply his power over and over at a much faster rate than Vegeta was able to do, considering their starting points.
Exactly. That was my point as well. The room of Spirit and time shows the big difference between Goku and Vegeta. Vegeta trains harder, but Goku trains smarter.
I like to think Vegeta was stronger than 50% goku at the cell games since he knew how strong he needed to get in order to surpass, and the reason he’s so surprised when goku goes 100% is because he thought he’d gotten back in front power wise
Also after Goku emerges from ROSAT, he calls out Vegeta for 'torturing his body' when he trains. Goku and Gohan didn't even stay the full year inside yet got an incredible boost from it. Vegeta weny in twice yet not only did he not get as much as Goku or Gohan out it despite completing the full year, he went back in after getting stuffed by Perfect Cell but got diminishing returns.
From Vegeta's perspective, if he has to try at all to fight another Saiyan he will be angry that he is not just superior by default. Remember how angry he looked from having to use SSJ against base Broly? He is insulted he isn't the elite Saiyan he always believed he was. He can admit when anyone other than a Saiyan is stronger than him and points out whatever advantage they had as an excuse as to why he lost to them, but a pure blood Saiyan should never be stronger than him in his own eyes.
In terms of martial arts its goku and who is the better trainer no question. Goku even being weaker than most of his enemies preformed way better than vegeta did like cell, buutenks, kid buu, beerus, zamasu, jiren etc but vegeta preformed horribly against ginyu, android 18, cell, kid buu, beerus, zamasu and jiren. Also the timechamber thing is so faulty. 1st goku was the one who told vegeta that there was power beyond super saiyan. 2. Gohan didnt help goku unlock grade 2 and 3 as gohan had very little battle and training intelligence and thought grade 3 would beat cell but goku knew it wouldnt instantly and the fact that trunks is a stronger and smarter fighter with more experience than gohan at that point and with less time goku came out stronger even when vegeta after seeing grade 4 went back into the time chamber. In super goku unlocks and masters the god forms before vegeta did and vegeta could follow the path goku created. 3 after vegeta trains in the time chamber and beats goku black him and trunks use the father son galic gun which was weaker than gokus Kamehameha in the same fight making goku above blue vegeta and rage trunks combined. In the top vegeta constantly stated that jiren is holding back and tells jiren to use the same power as he does against goku and vegeta isnt able to handle it. Goku in his blue form was almost able to knock out jiren. When ssbk goku and evo vegeta are fighting jiren it was typically vegeta who was getting thrown out of the fight first. All of this eventhough vegeta should have way more potential as he was born a super elite and at 5 years old had a power level above his fathers who was the strongest saiyan and goku was a low class warrior with a birth power level of 1. Goku has always unlocked and mastered forms and techniques and vegeta has the luxury of knowing what is the next step through goku but isnt able to surpass him consistently. Yes goku has more martial arts masters but even when they both are training with whis goku still gets ahead. He is better just like vegeta said
Yes, Son Goku is better then Prince Vegeta because of plot armor and the way Goku is
Goku made Vegeta use Ozaru witch hurt his pride and in his mind low class warrior has bitten the elite ... Goku achived SSJ 1 and deffited Freeza before Vegeta ... Majin Vegeta vas equal to SSJ2 Goku, he has to sneek attack him to go fight Majin Buu and later he learned that Goku can go SSJ3 ... Vegeta achived UE, and Goku achived True UI witch is eaven more powerfull then MUI and UE ... they are both great but Goku is no. 1 and Vegeta is no. 2
This might be the first video I've seen of yours where I completely disagree with you, and think you're missing some major factors.
I think the major point of Vegeta's speech was that Goku is better than Vegeta because Goku strives to be better than himself, while Vegeta strives to be better than others. That's why it's important to mention that Goku spares his enemies - they don't mean that he has never killed anyone, but rather that he generally wants to have another opportunity to test himself against his enemies - whereas Vegeta would rather cement his supremacy by killing his enemies. That's why Vegeta considers the first battle against Goku a loss.
I think there's tons of evidence throughout the series that this difference between them results in Goku being a trailblazer, while Vegeta is just playing catchup. Goku was the one who thought of utilizing extreme gravity for training, not Vegeta - despite Vegata having been exposed to different gravities throughout his life - it would later become an obsession for his training. Goku was the one who unlocked the secret to SSJ, and Vegeta was trying to catch up. Sure, Vegeta caught up to Goku in the android saga - only to be shown up again by Goku who innovated how to use SSJ power to the max. It was thanks to Goku's strategy to surpass SSJ that Gohan was able to - something both Goku an Vegeta learne from later. And then of course, Goku unlocked SSJ3.
When reading all these developments, it sounds like you're asking yourself the question: If Vegeta had the same circumstances as Goku, couldn't he do the same thing? I think that's the wrong question because if their circumstances were different, they wouldn't be the characters we know - Goku and Vegeta respectively. To quote one of my favourite TH-cam clips, "if my grandmother ha wheels, she would have been a bike". Vegeta never would have had the humility to train with Kami and King Kai, or to more intimately share training strategy with his son in the ROSAT. That's because Vegeta fights to be the strongest of everyone, while Goku fights to be the strongest version of himself. And that is what makes Goku numba one-da!
I think you're missing the point, Mike. Goku is meant to be Vegeta's foil or "development milestone" and seeing Goku's philosophy as a martial artist vs Vegeta's philosophy as a soldier. One tends to value life compared with the other even though Goku does kill. Although I will say even characters that value life do end up killing due to circumstances likely as part of their arc as a lot of villains challenge their philosophy. So, when Vegeta is conceding to Goku here, he's emphasizing Goku's philosophy which even included the ability to put aside ego and elitism to ask for help and learn! Given this is thematically appropriate for Dragon Ball and Vegeta's arc, Toriyama absolutely nailed it here. It's not about the victories and it's not invalidating Vegeta's solo hard work. It's about Vegeta's warlike social darwinist mentality. In a way, it ties into Dragon Ball's inspiration Journey to the West and its Buddhist core because, well, it IS a very Buddhist philosophy.
Gotta disagree I think this video is biased towards only looking at what supports Vegeta. I don’t think Vegeta ever surpassed Goku outside of Zenkai during Namek and him going into the ROST first both of which are relevant on timing. I agree that initially Vegeta was superior and it was impressive that he made up the gap between them when he first became a SSJ but the gap between them outside of Goku having SSJ wasn’t that big. Goku was 3 million and Vegeta would be around 2 million considering 2nd form Frieza is over 1 mil. Gohan surpassed 3rd form Frieza at a point and he couldn’t react to final Frieza while Vegeta could. Vegeta used more intense gravity to make up this difference while Goku was training with people far weaker than him. I like to think they were equal around this time. Goku was nerfed against 19 so when Piccolo says he seemed stronger that’s only relative to him being nerfed. Tien’s last comment implied Goku at full strength could be stronger but that even if he was it can’t be by much
Yes Goku had Gohan during the ROST but Gohan was fodder coming into it. He had to spend time bringing him up and Gohan didn’t even realize he was stronger than Goku so there was clearly never a point where he pressed him critically. Then you have to consider that Goku was still stronger than Vegeta even after he got a 2nd time in the chamber
Saying Goku only surpassed him while dead because his body could recover better is a good argument on paper but it’s never emphasized in the narrative. Especially when Vegeta says he thought he pushed himself harder than he did. King Kai and so on wouldn’t have been able to teach Goku anything at that point. Goku was his own master which is why as another video I watched earlier explains he removes the symbol from his Gi. So I think it’s clear at that point the reason Goku surpassed him was in fact just because he’s more gifted. Vegeta rivaling and surpasses Goku after the Manga ends isn’t canon to all of this
You could argue it was Vegeta who had advantages early on and Goku was simply playing catch up throughout the series. If Goku grew up as a generic Saiyan maybe he would have been stronger than Vegeta from the start
So when Goku gets ahead according to you its always because of a special reason but not Vegeta? How about Goku and Vegeta were both raised as real Saiyans and Goku gets the intense moulding Vegeta gets from King Vegeta also Frieza. And Vegeta wins all their fights? Goku felt pity because he had SSJ3 and was just holding back. This video is biased.
Also after the Goku sacrifice and Gohan Kamehameha vs Cell, there is a moment where Vegeta was so shocked by Goku sacrifice that he was saying that he will not be a warrior anymore.
P.S.: always Vegeta in Cell saga "it Is painfully clear at this point that no one among this group is stronger than Kakarot is, not even myself".
?
Yes Goku is better than Vegeta. Better fighter. Better man. Worse father. But that's what Piccolo is for i guess.
Vegeta by all accounts should be stronger than or at least as strong as Goku I’ll never understood why he was written to be so weak in comparison
Vegeta didn't had kame senin, Karin, kami, kaio. And the first probably taught goku the most important things a fighter can learn. How to really maximize fighting. Vegeta just figured it out on his own. Like sensing ki.
Vegeta didn't "figure it out" until he saw the Earth fighters do it. He didn't know that such a skill existed at any point before then, and he literally said that he got it from them.
@DecepticoN X HunteR no one taught him how to do it. He just saw it on exercise. So yes. He learn it by himself
It all comes down to the simple fact that the writter hates how popular Vageta became with the fans, and was forced to keep him around.
I swear the show gaslights you into thinking that goku is so much better than vegeta but if you actually watch vegeta does everything on his own while goku is always getting some stupid magical shit that makes him stronger
Kinda facts
What? The only magical thing Goku had consumed was the ultra divine water. But even that was only a last resort. Goku never took anything magical since. What are you talking about?
I like the newer analogy in Super that Goku is more suited to learn "angel stuff" as Beerus calls it, and Vegeta is more suited to God of Destruction stuff. That being, Goku is a prime candidate to master Ultra Instinct and Vegeta, on the other hand, is the perfect being to master Ultra Ego. In that sense, Goku is more aligned with the angel's way of thinking, and Vegeta with the hakai power. I believe Goku's power has always derived from his pureness of spirit--it's how he was able to ride kinto-un and become the first Super Saiyan in a millennium. With all that, angels are more powerful than the gods. Or at least, they are better at using their power, such that even if a god may technically be more powerful than an angel, the general abilities and techniques of the angels are still unbeatable even if outclassed power-wise As Goku has aligned himself more with the angel's ways, even if Vegeta may acheive superior battle power, Goku's technique will always be superior.
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Bro this guy drops these bangers every week man, where were u back in 2011?
Currently in the story vegeta is stronger then goku due to him putting up a better fight against granolah and gas in a non mastered ultra ego form.
I consider them equal. Goku just had a better training regimen. Vegeta is the guy who goes to the gym everyday thinking you rest your body when you sleep. Lol
I think it has something to do with Goku having this carefree way of approaching fights. I’m pretty sure Whis said something like this to both Goku and Vegeta.
He said goku thinks to less and vegeta to much
as a kid, i always thought the same thing. especially since vegeta is my fav character. As geekdom says when a character’s is not a gary s it makes the character much more interesting. Vegeta always trained on his own and still kept up. goku had all these masters and vegeta did not. great video
That's not a penalty to Goku really tho, or his story. Gary S is heavy handed analysis to that statement. Vegeta is no victim. He could have found some masters and he did, much much much later. Goku is no Gary sue, he just chose to be more receptive of others to improve which is a lesson we could all learn from and makes him just as interesting if not more than the guy who stubbornly ego rides everyone to oblivion nearly multiple times.
The prince is his own master besides whis
@@cmath6454 the correct term is gary stu not sue but good points
counterpoint: all vegeta had for the entirety of og dragonball and the beginning of z as an excuse for a master was freeza
@@cyberdemon6517 That is true but when you compare the time he spent under Frieza to the time he spent under Goku it becomes miniscule. That is like saying this 50 year old gymnist who trained under another and both had a different mindset needs to be coddled because he grew up differently than the other. Vegeta got his gifts from that. You can't discredit the power of Frieza and Vegeta proactively explored zenkai's his own biology and worked in some extents with Goku to defeat Frieza and continued the rest of his martial life working with Goku or at least the Z fighters that built Goku. As I said, Vegeta is no victim.
its cause he was a super elite class saiyan. born with a high battle power. highest on the saiyan planet...
until a certain legendary was born sometime later.
In my opinion Vegeta is by far the better martial artist. He is militaristic in his training. The only flaw in this is that he focuses way too much on trying to predict every possible scenario in every possible encounter. Goku always seems to be ahead of Vegeta because he doesn’t focus on preparing for scenarios. He keeps a small amount of his power, skills or abilities available to react to unexpected situations. Goku is simply more flexible in his fighting style than Vegeta.
Go back and watch the majin Vegeta fight. You will notice clearly Goku was a better H2H combatant but Goku was impressed by Vegeta's skill and even told him he learned a few tricks
@@Tariq-nv5gj Nah, they looked equal my guy.
@@kesenaememere8520 he was spamming ki blast everytime he got close he grappled him or Goku knocks him back while trying to talk sense into him
@@kesenaememere8520 😂🤡
@@Tariq-nv5gj That just shows he had more skill, grappling is a martial art lol. You've only just proved the other guy's point. He got Goku in holds he couldn't get out of easily. Anyone can punch and kick but not grapple.
I think In the idea of being a stronger warrior:
Vegeta having similar trainings from the same starting point, he would actually live up to what he says about being an “Elite” Saiyan warrior.
Although the rank system kinda doesn’t truly exist as yes potential varies but the way it’s dispersed is unrealistic. There should be more mid-class saiyans versus elite and low class. It’s cuz of a unique thing called averages.
But if they both had the exact same training from day 1, vegeta would remain The strongest of full blooded saiyans.
Gohan remains with the most potential although it wouldn’t really matter to him as he’s more into being a human and living a peaceful life.
If you’re talking philosophy then Goku wins because his philosophy is viewed as virtuous or correct.
Vegeta 🤩
I think goku and vegeta are the same right❗❓🌟✌😁👍
That's not really our place to determine this. We gotta ask the people who actually makes dbz.
Not just Gohan, and Krillin, but Yajirobe as well that help defeat Vegeta.
Does the fight on Earth cause a retcon of sorts. On Namek they say his power level is around 18,000? Or was that just an assumption? If his power level was just 18,000 on earth and Goku's was 8,000 pre kaio ken with it x3 he would be stronger than Vegeta right?
GT Vegeta used a machine to get Super Saiyan 4.
GT Goku was wished into a kid for SSj4 to be possible too.
@@Koi_Swirl Goku didn't even know about Super Saiyan 4 when he was ACCIDENTALLY turned into a kid.
If Vegeta says Goku is better, Vegeta is credentialed enough to make that claim being his Saiyan biology and decades of fighting around and WITH Goku. So that does basically say Goku is better when the man himself claims it.
rereading vegeta speech at the end, that man was really glazing lmaooo
It's like after the third season of DBZ his writing was taken over by a hack
I don't know. I could go into detail with this but when it came to the Vegeta and Goku power dynamic Goku seemed to be the more efficient trainer. Goku practically increased his power level by 20 fold while on King Kai's planet. If he trained on Earth, he would at best be half that and no Kaio Ken or Spirit Bomb. It's all circumstances. The one truly big thing that really does put Goku above Vegeta is their respective times in the Room of Spirit of Time. Both of them went in with their half Saiyan sons. Goku even went in with one that didn't know how to become SSJ. But Vegeta left there knowing about Grade 2 and 3, but used Grade 2. Goku figured Grade 2 and 3 on his own and went a different path. Goku didn't know anything about what was going on outside that room. He did it without outside help. Yes Gohan was an effictive training partner. But so would have been Trunks of Vegeta fully used that option.
Would have been nice if, instead of trying to surpass him in super, he just wanted to keep from getting left behind. To be able to roughly keep up with him and also be able to fight because he’s still a full-blooded saiyan and they live for that.
Vegeta is a prince and Kakorot is a low class warrior. Goku should be nowhere near thw same power level as a prince. Vegeta had the chance to learn from others but refuse to take help from weaklings. Goku is always a student to martial arts as Vegeta was always looking for raw power. Vegeta learned from Goku, which is why Goku is better from Vegeta's stand point.
Yes, yes he is😭
I would definitely disagree with namek. Goku was clearly stronger. Vegeta's Senkai boost was abnormal. it was slightly stronger than cheese and not as strong as ginyu. So Vegeta didn't even have 120k and thanks to a Senkai boost, he had about as much as Freezer in the first form, i.e. 530k? So vegeta strengthens itself more than 5 times more with a Senkai boost? no thanks^^ you shouldn't take it too seriously. Among the Androids, Vegeta was slightly stronger than Goku. Goku doesn't fight to destroy like Vegeta. He could have defeated C19 but Goku fights to have fun and see what his opponent can do. Vegeta saw the fight and had the advantage of knowing that he had to win quickly against C19. He said himself that he had no energy left after the fight and clearly lost against C20. With the training in the space of mind and time, Goku was alone. He was the one who trained Gohan and came up with the ideas. Gohan just had the talent and Goku knew how to take advantage of it. In the Boo Saga, Goku was clearly stronger. In my translation, Vegeta says that even as SSJ2 he didn't give his all because he didn't believe that Vegeta was really evil and he certainly didn't want to stop or destroy him. He only gave enough energy to give what Vegeta wanted. That's why Vegeta later said that Goku is number 1. he was just much stronger and a genius when it came to fighting and overtook him. Vegeta recognized and acknowledged that there, which was wonderful for Vegeta and a character development that he recognized, that you can also be strong through hard training and Goku was a fighting genius and yet not such a low level scam that he always thought .
Goku is way better than Vegeta. One thing people forget is that Vegeta never really trained until after Namek. Vegeta didn't really know how to train. All he really did was copy Goku's gravity training and try to simulate fights. He was more of a warrior than a martial artist like Goku. Goku knows how to train effectively. He had masters teach him. Vegeta never had that, so Vegeta learned by watching Goku. Goku was sort of Vegeta's first martial arts master. Not directly, but every step of Vegeta's progression came from watching Goku do it. It wasn't until training with Whis, the TOP, and training under Beerus did Vegeta actually branch out on his own.
Vegeta's time chamber training was WAY less effective than Goku's. Goku got head and shoulders stronger while also training Gohan up and leaving months early. Vegeta didn't really know how to train. He made it up as he went along (often just copying Goku's gravity training). Goku had decades of teaching from several masters to go off.
I like how in your vegeta videos your putting respect on my mans Vegeta. Its popular to clown him for L's which he wouldn't receive if it wasn't for his cockiness and ego. Put that aside he would've been got more Ws.
😮i still dont understand why Vegeta always wanted to train alone ....his whole life...and don't understand why goku is stronger but if 156 days = 1000 years on earth multiply times 7 which would of been 7000 Earth 🌎 years of training.i point it out because Goku should be stronger...when did he reach SS3
The huge powerup Goku got on Namek makes NO sense. How does he jump from 90k to 3 million with ONE zenkai boost??? Vegeta got multiple boosts yet only reached 2.5 million.... PLOT ARMOR BS. The fact that Goku only got to 8k after all that training with king kai shows a VERY inconsistent power growth potential...
Vegeta grows faster than Goku in power but Goku has better methods to get stronger. Vegeta was born stronger so his growth is faster.
One interesting thing to my ears is the point brought up at 11:15. Like… it always bugs me that as I remember and he said Vegeta says he gave up FIGHTING. that always makes me think… to a royal prince of the warrior saiyan’s race, give up FIGHT intrinsically means he gave up training?
Like, he would completely stop training, just because he decided never to fight again?
Or training became so much of he’s routine that he would keep on training even if he had no intention of ever fight again?!
To me, that was never that clear.
Great points, I've often thought that Vegeta could theoretically be on Goku's level. In terms of genetic potential, I think they're equal or Vegeta is even greater. However, I think we've consistently seen that Vegeta likely won't win unless he has a power advantage (which he is capable of attaining, tbf). What separates Goku is the fact that he started off weak and was gradually introduced to tougher opponents to mold him and build his confidence while he received training from several masters; this forced him from a young age to learn the foundational principles and skills of martial arts, elite fighting IQ, and it taught him fighting resilience. He also has an insatiable desire and optimism to get better paired with the know-how to get better. Because of these factors, if Goku's power level is equal to his opponent he will almost certainly find a way to win. Vegeta on the other hand grew up overwhelming his opponents and he had to play catch up to Goku in learning the intangibles (which by the end of Z he has done to a large degree). He's still elite in these categories, and his intensity matches Goku's, but his genius isn't quite up to Goku's level (no one is, really).
To give some sports analogies: Goku is Michael Jordan and Vegeta is a mixture of Allen Iverson and Kobe Bryant. Or to go with fighting, Goku is Evander Holyfield and Vegeta is Mike Tyson. These analogies are helpful because I think that Kobe could theoretically beat Jordan in the NBA finals at his best if he performed perfectly, and Mike Tyson could beat Evander when his intangibles were at their peak, but the genius, mastery, instincts and guts of MJ and Evander make it very, very difficult to overcome them even if their abilities are equaled.
Funnily enough people don't bring this up but even in the Battle of Gods movie or early DBS, Vegeta with just Super Saiyan 2 surpassed not only Goku's Super Saiyan 3 (when he was training on Earth alone), but also surpassed Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks and Ultimate Gohan to fight against Beerus, where he took actual hits from Beerus and (it changes depending on the anime adaptation and the movie) Beerus beat Gohan with no effort using chopsticks, and beat Gotenks like he was a literal human child, it shows that even with the advantages Goku has for training, Vegeta could always catch up or surpass him. (also forgot to mention that in the DBS Manga, just as people thought the moment Vegeta gets any training Goku has, he's generally better with it as seen with the Yardiatian's techniques he learned in under a year while Goku himself took a decent bit of time to learn how to use Instant Transmission, Vegeta not only learned that but Spirit Fission in a short amount of time, it does hurt to see how they handled Vegeta in DBS though because no matter what he does, he never truly gets to make a strong impact in the arc, Goku's always the one to end it so it makes me question why they gave Vegeta all these things to begin with...)
Sooo Vegeta didn’t surpass goku by having krillin fatally wound him and get get healed by dende. Vegeta didn’t have the Equipment at capsule corp and like 400x earths gravity for 3 years. Vegeta had help along the way as well.
Nice Vid! May I present another angle ? Goku beat Vegeta in their first fight, not only because gohan is his son and there fore "of him", but in their believe: Vegeta's "I stand supreme" vs Goku's believe "This planet will be protected, no matter what." Guess what, Goku won, the fights in Dragonball are not about strength...
Goku is number one.
Since their 1st fight Vegeta is either always trying to catch up to Goku. Become stronger for a few episodes. Only to once again fall behind.
He never defeats the main villain or foe of any saga.
Which is usually left up to Goku to try to defeat.
And Dragon Ball Super clearly states on random episodes.
From Whis, Beerus, Top, Champa and even Bulma that Goku is more formidable than Vegeta.
Goku is number one.
Heh this Vegeta propaganda. Trying to diminish Goku going from 3 times weaker than Vegeta, to continually stronger.
Yea Goku was better. At that moment. And continually. And Vegeta pointed out why.
Remember how much that hurts Vegeta's pride that an inferior just becomes so much stronger.
Saying Vegeta was stronger when Goku hadn't gotten a chance to train, but he became stronger than Vegeta's two years of training. And then his 7 years of training.
Using your logic. Vegeta grew up around stronger people, with Saiyan/freeza force training, and was still weaker than Goku or surpassed by him.
Goku wasn't training with a master in particular even if Kaio was there. Goku had already exceeded Kaio's training. And got a new emblem signifying that he was his own master by the time he lands on Namek.
Vegeta was born with advantages. And Vegeta often chose to be by himself.
This is not really directly related, but I have never been able to shake off my dislike about the power level numbers, and it all bubbled up again when they were mentioned in the video regarding Sayan saga.
The concept of power levels presented as numbers is just completely fine and as you have pointed previously they were used as a narrative tool.
But the way the numbers are just living their own crazy reality with how insanely high they start getting according to the power scaling community. Goku like, what, roughly gains 50X in power between when he starts his trip to Namek and escapes Namek? People train all the time in the universe and have trained since forever, yet at the end of the Buu Saga I'm pretty sure Tien's power level would make him a god among men compared to the beginning of the Z. Did people just never train in the Dragon Ball universe or what, if some years of vigorous training can give you explosive gains like that? Did Sayans never just Zenkai boost the shit out of themselves into astronomical numbers or were they a young race of people that never had the opportunity for that?
Basically, I think my issue with the power levels at the most basic level is that if you consider the numbers in a linear fashion, it's insane and makes little sense. If the power numbers don't follow a linear trajectory (logarithmic? or is it reverse of that?), they would make way more sense to me. So, say that going from 100K to 1M doesn't actually make the character 10X more powerful but just 2X more powerful, each time the number increases 10X, the actual power difference increases 2X.
That would make the insane power scaling numbers make more sense to me, but that's obviously not the most sensible way to represent the power scales overall (linear would be more easily understandable by most people, it's a nicer way to present them!), and if you view the current power scaling numbers created by the fanbase with this sort of lense, this sort of revised view on the numbers is not going to work at all with the current numbers (consider people come up with power scaling numbers based on observed relative differences between known characters, so with something like Piccolo's and Android 17's current power scale numbers their actual power difference would be practically nonexistent).
I don't know, rant over I guess. No problem with the actual video topic 👍
🤔 I think vegeta was naturally stronger , but goku trained a lot and was more open minded
When it comes to Vegeta he ends up defeating and killing Henchmen and Minions more in DBZ than Goku if I count Puipui, Android 19, Dodoria, Zarbon and continues the trend of defeating and killing Henchmen and enemies who aren't as strong as the main Enemy or main villains in DBS if I count Ginyu in Tagoma''s body, Toppo/Top and the other fighters from over univeses in that universal survival tournament and still continues that trend of not being able to defeat and kill main villains and main enemies if I count Frieza, Jiren and Manga Villains after the DBS anime ended.
I mean vageta has the natural advantage of genetics. That is one of the biggest advantage in DB. Just look at how genetics help gohan, freeza, and broly.