Going back to watch the show again, knowing now that Agatha knew from the beginning that Billy created the road gives so much of the dialogue a different perspective. The show was so well written. So many of the ‘fan boys’ slam it either because it’s not Captain America or Iron Man, or because the cast is 6 women and a gay teenager. The show was about well-crafted characters, a clever story, and expanding the magick lore of the MCU.
Jennifer Kale is now technically the first witch to survive and complete the “Witches’ Road” and has no idea it was manifested by Billy. She’s about to spread this rumour like wildfire
@@kennethst.bernard2710 Yeah, I was thinking about that the other day. Was Agatha lying when she said she had walked the road before and when she was done only one witch survived? The Agatha All Along-ness of it.
@@kennethst.bernard2710 Billy isn't a witch, and Agatha only technically survived---there's a good argument to be made about the fight in the backyard still being part of the road.
40:11 in episode 8 when Agatha tells death that she will deliver Billy to her as long as she leaves her alone for the remainder of her life and when she dies she never wants to see her face. I took that as her turning her into a ghost because death literally said she doesn't like ghosts
man, the last 3 episodes of this series were just so beautiful. agatha has become one of my top 5 characters in the mcu. not only a truly well written and legitimately complex villain, but also a beautifully written WOMAN. jac schaeffer managed to write a fully realized woman, whose intentions made sense. a woman is at once a traumatized daughter, a protective mother, and also someone who has lost so much. super hopeful to see jen again. i thought sasheer zamata was great and would love to see her continue in the supernatural side of things. i believe there is another series in production dealing with white vision that is supposed to be the "spiritual conclusion" to the unconventional 3 part series that is: Wandavision, Agatha All Along, and whatever this new series will be.
I think Ghost Agatha was a perfect way to take the character not just cause it happened in the comics but because it’s the perfect punishment for her character if they want her to stick around and become a mentor figure to Billy. Agatha was a villain all the way through. Yes we came to understanding her and feeling empathy for her but that doesn’t really negate anything. Her becoming a ghost losing her powers and not being able to move on cause she cant face him. I’m sure she will get some ghost abilities and maybe do some minor magic like giving herself a physical form like she does in the comics(and to save money). Really hope we get a Wiccan(Wiccan and Speed?) show. AAA left a lot of Billy’s story very open so I hope they go into it and show consequences of the sigil being broken like some witch or being coming after his power and ofcourse Tommy side of the story. While continuing developing the Billy and Agatha pupil/mentor relationship. Maybe introduce Hulkling and maybe Bring in America Chavez into the story. If you know Wiccan and America lore you know why this should be a thing. When it comes to Tommy.i think he was with Billy all along and some type of dimension where Billy and Wanda reality-warping energy comes from. When Billy is in Tommy’s POV we see red hex particles but I think his been attached to Billy which is why Wanda could never find them cause both were protected by the sigil. I have a feeling that if Wanda found them first with the book all 3 would be curropted by the book. 2 reality warpers plus a speedsters under Cathun manipulation would be terrible.
The deal Agatha made was if Billy gives himself up, Death wouldn't come after her, and he did technically give himself up, which is why Agatha said she "took a calculated risk", I do love the idea of Ghost Agatha. I really loved this show, I loved that they didn't try to redeem Agatha, like she may not be evil but she is still just the worst and I agree Billy and Lilia were my favourite characters too.
When Billy communicated with Agatha telepathically, you see Agatha reach up and feel for her brooch, which wasn't there. She gambled on the idea that her brooch not being with her would keep her spirit anchored to the living world, allowing her to return as a ghost. That was her "calculated risk".
We diffinially gonna see Jenifer again, in the comic she is the member of midnight suns, her cousin is Jonny blaze (ghost rider) and the fact that MCU introduce her in Live action that means jonny blaze gonna be in MCU soon, she is also one of "Man Thing"(warewolf by night) allies in the comic. She can do so much in the future.
It sounded like Trent said all along Tommy was in the body of the boy that drowned. If so, that's not quite it. Tommy's soul was untethered prior to the drowning. Billy found a boy who was being bullied to death in order for Tommy's soul to occupy it just like Billy's soul entered the freshly dead body of William Kaplan.
So all these weeks later I have been really rethinking about Agatha. I think the guilt she feels (I can't face him) is because she spent his entire life just using him for her scams. She loved him but could not just raise him thus cheating herself and him of their time together in a way. I also wonder if their tendency to run and live rough contributed to his early death. Then she uses the song they made up together only for power. She is at the end a true villain. This is my interpretation on why she cannot face him because the guilt which she always felt (and appears when she drops her mask) still causes her to be stuck. Billy's story is so interesting and how it played out in the comics is so different I am really curious when he meets Wanda if he will actually acknowledge her as his mother or not.
I thought that she couldn't face him because after he died, she still kept killing witches, even though he didn't like when she did that and she kept doing it for centuries. I think when she heard his voice from the Ouija board she realized that he could still see her and there, he could finally speak to her and tell her to stop. She was pretty shook. Man, that part got me when he said, "Mama, STOP!"
that's not why she can't face him. her guilt regarding him was that she couldn't save him. her guilt after him is that she kept scamming and killing witches for power because she wasn't able to cope. she took his song and used it for something bad. she doesn't think he'd forgive her for that, but when he was alive she wasn't ever seen as a villain to him. presumably, he likely knows what she's been up to since and thinks he wouldn't like what she became.
The pet thing wasn't really mocking at first. She was preventing him from trying to speak his name in front of Lilia, because she didn't want Lilia to see the sigil while trying to con her about the Road. That said... yeah, the switch is ironic.
You guys have made my Saturday morning. Have really enjoyed your reactions... and will watch them again when I get AAA withdrawal symptoms 😋 And now... your reaction to the Making Of video... cause the meal ain't over until dessert is served 😊
We also saw that Rio, Death, wants to be loved. Wants to be embraced. She looked hurt when Agatha said she would hate her forever, just as she looked hurt when Agatha told her that she didn't want to see her face when she died. It's an interesting anthropomorphizing of Death. Also, remember, Rio said she hates ghosts.
28:52 fyi Kathryn Hahn has mentioned in interviews that both Rio and Billy played a part in breaking Agatha out of the spell, so it seems that was what Agatha was referring to. Rio did guide her claw to her way out in episode 1.
It’s interesting how people read “I cast no spell, I spoke no incantation” line as possible immaculate conception when my thought was, oh, just like every mother. :-)
Yes, exactly! And I don’t see how she could’ve immaculately conceived Nicholas, since it’s very clearly stated that the Scarlet Witch (and her son) is the only one capable of spontaneous creation.
@ Possibly, but what child isn’t made from “scratch?” Even when we say that about food items, it means we’re working from a lot of pre-existing ingredients.
Love the moment with Agatha and Nicky where she tells him she can’t heal him, protect him from what’s coming, or divine when it would happen. She always needed her coven but fear of losing him causes her to not see that and just consolidate power for herself
@@zimvader25 Yeah, but the Divination stuff would have applied. Then the question becomes would you really want to know exactly how much time you have? It doesn't matter, because Agatha believes other witches will try to kill her. She learned that at mama's knee.
Wanda lost herself to grief and stole the free will of thousands of innocent people. Then, when she realized, she ran away. Agatha lost herself to grief and murdered thousands of innocents. Then, when confronted, she threw up emotionless walls. Billy lost himself to grief (when Alice died), and ALMOST killed three people. Then when he realized what he'd done (creating the Road which led to the inadvertent deaths of three people he was wracked with guilt and tried to make amends. We should be terribly glad that Billy/William is a basically sweet kid who was raised to love and care for others, because he already has as much, if not more power than Wanda. Let's hope he finds more people to help balance out his "spirit guide's" suggestions, because simply doing the opposite of anything Agatha suggests can only go so far.
“Murdered thousands of innocents”? Like who? You mean witches? Witches that attacked her because she said mean things to them? Agatha was never out there being evil. Her mother and original coven left her with a complete distrust for witches so she went on offense before they, inevitably in her mind, turned on her. What other story did you get out of here?
@@zimvader25did you not watch this episode? Agatha literally lured in unsuspecting witches and murdered them for centuries. She baited them with insults to steal their power and MURDER them.
@@zimvader25 ah... you attacked me - you are now dead, but according to your logic, I have done nothing evil....... this is exactly what Agatha did. She found desperate, vulnerable women (you need to be pretty hard up to "risk the Witches' Road", then at the moment where everything failed she provoked them, then killed them . She's got reasons, but no excuses
@@dcaslick So, insulting me gives me the right to use deadly force? That's not how the real world works. From the little we see on screen, most of Agatha's kills would be ruled self-defence by modern laws. It is clear for her original coven and her mother; those intended to kill her. For the Witches' Road instances, we have to assume the magic those witches' were throwing at her was harmful enough to cause at least bodily damage. Alice could go both ways; it's obvious that Agatha didn't initiate the power syphoning on purpose, but it's hard to judge if stopping it was within her mental faculties at that moment.
Really enjoyed your reactions to this terrific show. I think there is a chance of a second season given that Disney entered the show into the Comedy category not the limited series category (like WandaVision was). Hopefully we see Agatha, Wiccan, Jen & Death again. In the meanwhile if you want to see more of Joe Locke, I'd also highly recommend Heartstopper. Again thanks and stay healthy.
Agatha wasn't eligible for the limited series category because it already is the "second season" because it hat continuing characters and story elements from WandaVision. While I hope we get more Agatha and the finale definitely leaves the door open for a continuation the series being entered into the comedy series category isn't evidence that more is coming.
from what I understand, this is "part 2" in a loosely connected trilogy. beginning with wandavision and concluding with a 3rd series about white vision and presumably whomever the spirit of tommy is occupying.
Agatha did all this for the sake of lust for power and strength. When her mother wanted to execute her, it probably left her traumatized for centuries. Does this justify her? No. Was there a reason for her actions? Not either. Did she do it after the injury? Yes. That's why Agatha is interesting, because she is a chaotic and complex character and the show has done an incredible job of not writing her an arch of redemption (because she doesn't need it) and because they show us Agatha's moments of vulnerability and weakness and make us sympathize and immediately remind us that she is a villain and what she did. Thank you for that, Kathryn Hahn, she was born for this role.
Wondered how you would react to this. As a comic nerd I very much respect your opinions and enjoy both of your reactions. Btw that X-Turtles shirt is dope af. I’m trying to find it right now lol
Hey, Agatha had some character growth. She did sacrifice herself for Billy, even though she says it was calculated. (I assume because she knows Rio hates ghosts, per the Spirit trial.) But it is really, she just likes this ONE KID because he reminds her of Nicky. And usually I hate those kind of stories, like why can’t you just see the value in a person without it being related to you somehow. But Agatha is a serial killer who has been conning people for hundreds of years… so baby steps.
Great reaction. and a great show. A rewatch will bring up so many dropped hints about the twist in the road being Billy's creation. Some were shown during Billy's realization scene, but there were many other clues. At the beach house, why would Agatha pour out her wine? Why did she feel so trapped there, to the point of trying to break out the window? In ep. 8, just before they returned to their shoes on the road, Billy said something like "without a green witch, we're back where we started". When they got to their shoes at the "start/end" Agatha really began to panic, and she starts directing her screams at Billy "So how to we get off the road!!?" He begins to mumble something... and she shouts "If you don't know, then keep quiet!". It seemed she was afraid if he started to think of things, it all might change the rules of the road, and maybe not for the better. Another interesting line in ep. 1 is when Detectives Agatha and Rio were talking: Rio asks "Do you remember why you hate me?" Just one more thought... about Nickolas: People always thought he was taken as a baby, and were shocked when we heard him talk at the Ouija session. We now know from ep.9 he was developing the moral compass that killing, even witches, was wrong. He saw his mother killing Alice, and said that chilling line "Mama. Stop!". Also likely why Agatha didn't want to face him in the afterlife, since he knew of all her continued killing. I don't know how prevalent this idea is, but growing up I was told that age seven was deemed the "age of reason" where a child was old enough to understand "right from wrong"; A younger child would not be judged in the afterlife for their errors. But at seven years old they were expected to take responsibility for their actions. Nicki was starting to realize killing was wrong. Had he lived, he likely would have continued helping his mother kill witches. Rio took him at age six and didn't let him cross the threshold where he would have been judged harshly for his complicit actions, especially because he knew it was wrong. Just some thoughts that came to me watching the finale. Anyway, I hope in a future series, we continue to see Billy, Agatha, and even Rio.
I think we could see Jennifer Kale pop up in a Midnight Sons show, she has some connections there. I think Childrens Crusade is the next logical step for these characters, you pretty much have a full roster now minus Tommy and Teddy we also have Vision Quest coming up which could introduce Tommy and Viv and we could potentially see Billy and Agatha show up there next to find Tommy and if SWORD is involved introduce Teddy.
I love your channel. I think that Rio was merciful to Agatha the entire time. She initially says, "I can offer only time." She was also merciful in taking Nicky. Imagine what would have happened if Agatha was awake when Nicky died. Any mother would fight to the death to save her child. I think that Rio simply avoided that confrontation. And...she kept her word.
So many people have remarked on how "cruel" it was that Rio didn't tell Agatha how much time she'd have with Nicky. I find that odd, because ... that's basically what everyone goes through. Literally nobody knows how much time their children will have. So from Death's point of view, Agatha did receive a gift: she got time that countless others had been denied. Yes, Agatha's pain would arguably be worse for having experienced the time with Nicky, but it was a gift from Death that was unique to her. I also disagree that Agatha was draining power from other witches specifically for Nicky; she may have hoped she was prolonging his life by gaining more power, but she had clearly been stealing power from other witches even in Salem, some 60 years earlier than when Nicky died. I saw an interview with Jac Schaeffer in which she explained that Agatha's killing spree after Nicky died was partly Agatha's way of keeping her memories of her son alive; the Ballad being their creation meant that singing it and continuing the con was a way for her to grieve. Which, of course, is tragic in that it also added to Agatha's shame and guilt, making it that much harder for her to face Nicky now in the afterlife.
That whole theory about Agatha killing witches to distract death or to prolong Nicky‘s life came out of nowhere. I’ve watched this episode a few times and never see anything to indicate that that’s what is going on. It’s been well established that she kills witches to steal their power, but also because she doesn’t trust them based on what her mother and her original coven tried to do to her. I also see people say “the one day she doesn’t kill witches death comes for her son”. So are we saying she killed witches every single day for six years? That doesn’t make any sense.
They way RIo acted "cold" as you said, I think it's because she bent the rules for Agatha in a way she never has since the beginning of the universe and Agatha instead hates her and says she gave her nothing. Supposing that they had been together for a long time before Nicky then Agatha probably knew how it all worked and yet when it came to Nicky she just couldn't accept it and wanted Rio to break the rules which honestly what parent could? Also big theory around is that Rio is the other parent and Jac Shaffer did say they cast the actor for Nicky to look like Aubrey Plaza so I imagine even if not the case because they were in a relationship she would have taken that role in his life anyway...now imagine having to take his soul to the afterlife. I think Rio showed herself in her softest form because not only was he a child, but she probably loved him too. And this meant losing both him AND Agatha.
Actually Road was real she walked it with Nicky wrighting the song that turned into the witches road with Billys powers , she lied song does mean something, its Nicky song
I really hope you guys will consider reacting to heartstopper since you like Joe Locke, its a beautiful series (and season 3 just came out on October!) As far as i know, the next spinoff is visionquest, so i wonder if it'll be billy and tommy finding vision
@@LeeCarlson Once Billy showed up and she gave them a choice, sure. But she seemed to be doing her d*mnedest to kill Agatha before that point. "You're coming with ME." I came up with the "You don't break a deal with Death" explanation for myself, because I wanted the "Death, doesn't kill" rule to have some consistency.
I do wonder how much we'll see of Aubrey Plaza in the future MCU. As Death, she'd obviously be all over the place, but when/where would it be appropriate to actually bring her back on screen? Should be interesting to see what they do with her going forward.
Agatha didn't consume power to protect Nicolas. She was doing that before he was born. She even tells him she has no power to protect him. She's a succubus witch from birth. Hence her mother's deplorable cry that she should have killed her at birth. Plus as seen in the last episode. Agatha can stop sucking the power from witches at any point. Like she stopped with Billy. But she didn't want too. Even with Alice. Agatha is a villain with a soft spot for her son & Billy. The reason why she doesn't want to face Nicholas is because what a poor life she gave him. Just wandering around and living in the woods using him in her con. When she could have given him a home & prehaps extended his life for longer.
I agree with half of this. Agatha didn't start killing witches for power when Nicholas was born. She'd probably been doing it since her coven decide that her natural ability to absorb magical power was somehow evil and never made an effort to help her learn to control it. And she struggles to control it. In Alice's instance, she couldn't control it. The show runners and Hahn have confirmed that. But she was perfectly willing to kill Alice in her basement, so it's not as if Agatha isn't a predator. Just that it WAS beyond her control with Alice. So why with Billy? Because Billy is like a firehose of power. She could actually feel full enough to manage some control. Jac spoke about it in an audio interview with the House of R. Those aren't her exact words but the essence of it. Billy as complex carbs. I think people think she started when Nicky was born because she says, "I think we're going to be very good at this." A hungry baby makes a great prop to get you past those protection wards. Maybe she was trying to build power, but did she seriously think she could gather power to hold off Death? Maybe when you're a mother you think anything might work. Just not living with actual healers or people with divination magic because her mother taught her that other witches would eventually try to kill her. I feel sorry for Rio. I don't get the sense that she decides people's fates. She's responsible for maintaining the flow/balance, but if she could choose, would she have chosen to have Nicky be stillborn? She can stretch the timing of things, apparently, but there may be limits. The show intentionally didn't get into that stuff. What I do understand is why Agatha can't easily forgive her for being the hand that took her son. It would always have been too soon. Tragic for them.
@@cerberus01 I find this one hard to buy because surely Agatha knows the scope of Rio‘s power. Agatha killing a few witches isn’t gonna keep the cosmic entity of Death very busy.
I don’t believe Agatha killing had anything to do with Nicky and death. I think Agatha’s power set is that of a succubus. That just her natural power. And it may be rare and feared amongst the witch race. And because her natural ability pretty much makes her a killing machine who survives through others life forces, death sees her as interesting. Similar to how death loves Deadpool who cannot die. She is infaturated with those that she cannot have. Agatha kills to survive and she knows if other witches find out, they would kill her because she is always predator.
Your final sentence is 100% correct. Agatha started killing because because witches tried to kill her. But she doesn't absorb life forces. She is not a vampire. She absorbs power, not life. It turns out that a witch doesn't survive having all of her power drained. She wouldn't need to absorb power if she was content to do "analog magic". But she needs to use "her purple" to blast/levitate/shield/etc. And her power does kick in automatically when she's attacked. They never explained what Death sees in Agatha. It's just clear she's deeply in love with her, to the extent that she pursues Agatha when she knows Agatha hates her because she did her job.
Could you react to Heartstopper? Joe Locke plays one of the main characters, and it's such a cute and wholesome show! It's based on graphic novels by Alice Oseman, and I highly recommend it.
We have two more spinoffs before Wanda comes back for Avengers Doomsday and Secret Wars I still think she's alive I think they're gonna show that Doctor Doom took her into his universe
The fact that Billy broke her spell over Agatha is a clear indication that she’s alive since Strange tells Ebony Maw in infinity wars that breaking a dead person’s spell is impossible.
I don’t think Joe and Patti outperformed Kathryn… at all. What I do think is they leveled up to the effort she was giving as the lead and delivered. I think the distinction you feel is the way they were written as characters. Billy and Lilia are given heroic arcs, even if a bit of a con on Billy’s part . They are written with obvious tropes that range from disarming, likable, innocent, to heroic and sympathetic. Agatha requires so much more commitment to watching her expressions, or even just studying the way her face looks and her voice sounds when she tells the truth. She is telling the truth to Billy all season whenever he directly asks her or challenges her. Examples: When she tells Billy she couldn’t control her power when she killed Alice. When she asks him to “juice her up” and he accuses her of killing him and/or leaving him behind. She is telling the truth when she says she won’t.
Kathryn was the GOAT. I spent a good long time just watching her body language as Agatha, with her hands in her pockets, her hips jutting out--or cocked to the side--and That Coat!! Agatha is a performer and Kathryn managed to show us both the performance and the truth beneath so many times. I am smitten! 💜💜💜💜
I don't know how I feel about Ghost Agatha. I know it's comics-accurate, but... eh, it feels a little cheesy to me. Maybe it'll grow on me in future appearances. Agatha's character annoys me. Not because of her, and not because it's bad writing, but because she's *impossible to read* 😅She's written so well, but she has so many layers of masks that I can't figure out her motivations for anything. She's got the real Agatha core, the layer of insecure facade (the "tough act"), the layer of con artist... and I can never tell which layer is motivating which of her behaviors 😅 As someone who's a hobbyist writer, getting into the mind of a character is something I love doing, so it's frustrating to have finally met a character I *cannot figure out* 😂
Yes it is confirmed. The director is talking to her team about it then Disney boss and then will decide but they said it's looking good that it will definitely happen.
@@freeride_99 it been said on marvel own page there are talking about it and that it looking good that will happen and I think marvel know more what happening than anyone.
Going back to watch the show again, knowing now that Agatha knew from the beginning that Billy created the road gives so much of the dialogue a different perspective. The show was so well written. So many of the ‘fan boys’ slam it either because it’s not Captain America or Iron Man, or because the cast is 6 women and a gay teenager. The show was about well-crafted characters, a clever story, and expanding the magick lore of the MCU.
Jennifer Kale is now technically the first witch to survive and complete the “Witches’ Road” and has no idea it was manifested by Billy. She’s about to spread this rumour like wildfire
Perhaps she is the third. Agatha and Billy completed the road also.
@@kennethst.bernard2710 Yeah, I was thinking about that the other day. Was Agatha lying when she said she had walked the road before and when she was done only one witch survived? The Agatha All Along-ness of it.
@@kennethst.bernard2710 Jen completed it first though, then Billy, then Agatha
@@kennethst.bernard2710 Billy isn't a witch, and Agatha only technically survived---there's a good argument to be made about the fight in the backyard still being part of the road.
@@HenryLoenwind Billy _is_ a witch
40:11 in episode 8 when Agatha tells death that she will deliver Billy to her as long as she leaves her alone for the remainder of her life and when she dies she never wants to see her face. I took that as her turning her into a ghost because death literally said she doesn't like ghosts
I felt it was a final thumbing her nose at Death in saying "I'll die, but you can't have me" since Death still does love her, but she hates Death.
man, the last 3 episodes of this series were just so beautiful.
agatha has become one of my top 5 characters in the mcu. not only a truly well written and legitimately complex villain, but also a beautifully written WOMAN.
jac schaeffer managed to write a fully realized woman, whose intentions made sense. a woman is at once a traumatized daughter, a protective mother, and also someone who has lost so much.
super hopeful to see jen again. i thought sasheer zamata was great and would love to see her continue in the supernatural side of things.
i believe there is another series in production dealing with white vision that is supposed to be the "spiritual conclusion" to the unconventional 3 part series that is: Wandavision, Agatha All Along, and whatever this new series will be.
I think Ghost Agatha was a perfect way to take the character not just cause it happened in the comics but because it’s the perfect punishment for her character if they want her to stick around and become a mentor figure to Billy. Agatha was a villain all the way through. Yes we came to understanding her and feeling empathy for her but that doesn’t really negate anything. Her becoming a ghost losing her powers and not being able to move on cause she cant face him. I’m sure she will get some ghost abilities and maybe do some minor magic like giving herself a physical form like she does in the comics(and to save money).
Really hope we get a Wiccan(Wiccan and Speed?) show. AAA left a lot of Billy’s story very open so I hope they go into it and show consequences of the sigil being broken like some witch or being coming after his power and ofcourse Tommy side of the story. While continuing developing the Billy and Agatha pupil/mentor relationship. Maybe introduce Hulkling and maybe Bring in America Chavez into the story. If you know Wiccan and America lore you know why this should be a thing.
When it comes to Tommy.i think he was with Billy all along and some type of dimension where Billy and Wanda reality-warping energy comes from. When Billy is in Tommy’s POV we see red hex particles but I think his been attached to Billy which is why Wanda could never find them cause both were protected by the sigil. I have a feeling that if Wanda found them first with the book all 3 would be curropted by the book. 2 reality warpers plus a speedsters under Cathun manipulation would be terrible.
The deal Agatha made was if Billy gives himself up, Death wouldn't come after her, and he did technically give himself up, which is why Agatha said she "took a calculated risk", I do love the idea of Ghost Agatha. I really loved this show, I loved that they didn't try to redeem Agatha, like she may not be evil but she is still just the worst and I agree Billy and Lilia were my favourite characters too.
When Billy communicated with Agatha telepathically, you see Agatha reach up and feel for her brooch, which wasn't there. She gambled on the idea that her brooch not being with her would keep her spirit anchored to the living world, allowing her to return as a ghost. That was her "calculated risk".
May not be evil but still just the worst has me cracking up.
We diffinially gonna see Jenifer again, in the comic she is the member of midnight suns, her cousin is Jonny blaze (ghost rider) and the fact that MCU introduce her in Live action that means jonny blaze gonna be in MCU soon, she is also one of "Man Thing"(warewolf by night) allies in the comic. She can do so much in the future.
17:24 this running joke of Mrs Davis always made me laugh
Great season. Enjoyed your reaction to it.
It sounded like Trent said all along Tommy was in the body of the boy that drowned. If so, that's not quite it. Tommy's soul was untethered prior to the drowning. Billy found a boy who was being bullied to death in order for Tommy's soul to occupy it just like Billy's soul entered the freshly dead body of William Kaplan.
So all these weeks later I have been really rethinking about Agatha.
I think the guilt she feels (I can't face him) is because she spent his entire life just using him for her scams. She loved him but could not just raise him thus cheating herself and him of their time together in a way. I also wonder if their tendency to run and live rough contributed to his early death. Then she uses the song they made up together only for power. She is at the end a true villain.
This is my interpretation on why she cannot face him because the guilt which she always felt (and appears when she drops her mask) still causes her to be stuck.
Billy's story is so interesting and how it played out in the comics is so different I am really curious when he meets Wanda if he will actually acknowledge her as his mother or not.
I thought that she couldn't face him because after he died, she still kept killing witches, even though he didn't like when she did that and she kept doing it for centuries. I think when she heard his voice from the Ouija board she realized that he could still see her and there, he could finally speak to her and tell her to stop. She was pretty shook. Man, that part got me when he said, "Mama, STOP!"
that's not why she can't face him. her guilt regarding him was that she couldn't save him. her guilt after him is that she kept scamming and killing witches for power because she wasn't able to cope. she took his song and used it for something bad. she doesn't think he'd forgive her for that, but when he was alive she wasn't ever seen as a villain to him. presumably, he likely knows what she's been up to since and thinks he wouldn't like what she became.
Agatha mocked Billy by calling him "her pet" and "familiar" in the beginning and ends her arc actually becoming *his* familiar.
The pet thing wasn't really mocking at first. She was preventing him from trying to speak his name in front of Lilia, because she didn't want Lilia to see the sigil while trying to con her about the Road.
That said... yeah, the switch is ironic.
Mentor ≠ familiar
Just then, the witch, to satisfy an itch, when flying on her broomstick, thumbing for a hitch.
I mean, I really don't think ghost Agatha is a 'familiar' at all.
You guys have made my Saturday morning.
Have really enjoyed your reactions... and will watch them again when I get AAA withdrawal symptoms 😋
And now... your reaction to the Making Of video... cause the meal ain't over until dessert is served 😊
We also saw that Rio, Death, wants to be loved. Wants to be embraced. She looked hurt when Agatha said she would hate her forever, just as she looked hurt when Agatha told her that she didn't want to see her face when she died. It's an interesting anthropomorphizing of Death.
Also, remember, Rio said she hates ghosts.
28:52 fyi Kathryn Hahn has mentioned in interviews that both Rio and Billy played a part in breaking Agatha out of the spell, so it seems that was what Agatha was referring to. Rio did guide her claw to her way out in episode 1.
Really enjoyed all your reactions. Thanks for sharing!
If you enjoyed Joe Locke in this, I highly recommend Heartstopper!
Top tier Marvel show right with WandaVision and Loki (my personal fav) ❤💚💜
It’s interesting how people read “I cast no spell, I spoke no incantation” line as possible immaculate conception when my thought was, oh, just like every mother. :-)
yeah sometimes people get really hung up on avoiding the most simple explaination.
Yes, exactly! And I don’t see how she could’ve immaculately conceived Nicholas, since it’s very clearly stated that the Scarlet Witch (and her son) is the only one capable of spontaneous creation.
When I heard the line, my impression was more along the lines of, “look at this miracle that happened *without* using magick.”
I think it’s more the “you I made from scratch,” part that has people wondering.
@ Possibly, but what child isn’t made from “scratch?” Even when we say that about food items, it means we’re working from a lot of pre-existing ingredients.
The music on this show.. superb!!
Agatha DID walk the Road. It just was not the Road Billy created.
Your reactions are great! Glad you enjoyed the show 🎉
Love the moment with Agatha and Nicky where she tells him she can’t heal him, protect him from what’s coming, or divine when it would happen. She always needed her coven but fear of losing him causes her to not see that and just consolidate power for herself
This again… she said that because it was death coming for him. No coven was going to stop Rio.
@@zimvader25 Yeah, but the Divination stuff would have applied. Then the question becomes would you really want to know exactly how much time you have? It doesn't matter, because Agatha believes other witches will try to kill her. She learned that at mama's knee.
I think that Death was Agatha's partner in the creation of Nicholas.
Interpretations are welcome. 🙂They absolutely chose to cast a kid who looked like Aubrey Plaza, the showrunners said.
Best series in the Marvel, amazing ❤ series
Wanda lost herself to grief and stole the free will of thousands of innocent people. Then, when she realized, she ran away.
Agatha lost herself to grief and murdered thousands of innocents. Then, when confronted, she threw up emotionless walls.
Billy lost himself to grief (when Alice died), and ALMOST killed three people. Then when he realized what he'd done (creating the Road which led to the inadvertent deaths of three people he was wracked with guilt and tried to make amends.
We should be terribly glad that Billy/William is a basically sweet kid who was raised to love and care for others, because he already has as much, if not more power than Wanda. Let's hope he finds more people to help balance out his "spirit guide's" suggestions, because simply doing the opposite of anything Agatha suggests can only go so far.
“Murdered thousands of innocents”? Like who? You mean witches? Witches that attacked her because she said mean things to them? Agatha was never out there being evil. Her mother and original coven left her with a complete distrust for witches so she went on offense before they, inevitably in her mind, turned on her. What other story did you get out of here?
@@zimvader25did you not watch this episode? Agatha literally lured in unsuspecting witches and murdered them for centuries. She baited them with insults to steal their power and MURDER them.
@@zimvader25 ah... you attacked me - you are now dead, but according to your logic, I have done nothing evil....... this is exactly what Agatha did. She found desperate, vulnerable women (you need to be pretty hard up to "risk the Witches' Road", then at the moment where everything failed she provoked them, then killed them . She's got reasons, but no excuses
@@dcaslick So, insulting me gives me the right to use deadly force? That's not how the real world works.
From the little we see on screen, most of Agatha's kills would be ruled self-defence by modern laws. It is clear for her original coven and her mother; those intended to kill her. For the Witches' Road instances, we have to assume the magic those witches' were throwing at her was harmful enough to cause at least bodily damage. Alice could go both ways; it's obvious that Agatha didn't initiate the power syphoning on purpose, but it's hard to judge if stopping it was within her mental faculties at that moment.
14:47
".....and I'll reap all the benefits!"
Jon Lovitz, Wedding Singer
Classic
Really enjoyed your reactions to this terrific show. I think there is a chance of a second season given that Disney entered the show into the Comedy category not the limited series category (like WandaVision was). Hopefully we see Agatha, Wiccan, Jen & Death again.
In the meanwhile if you want to see more of Joe Locke, I'd also highly recommend Heartstopper.
Again thanks and stay healthy.
Agatha wasn't eligible for the limited series category because it already is the "second season" because it hat continuing characters and story elements from WandaVision. While I hope we get more Agatha and the finale definitely leaves the door open for a continuation the series being entered into the comedy series category isn't evidence that more is coming.
from what I understand, this is "part 2" in a loosely connected trilogy. beginning with wandavision and concluding with a 3rd series about white vision and presumably whomever the spirit of tommy is occupying.
Agatha did all this for the sake of lust for power and strength. When her mother wanted to execute her, it probably left her traumatized for centuries. Does this justify her? No. Was there a reason for her actions? Not either. Did she do it after the injury? Yes. That's why Agatha is interesting, because she is a chaotic and complex character and the show has done an incredible job of not writing her an arch of redemption (because she doesn't need it) and because they show us Agatha's moments of vulnerability and weakness and make us sympathize and immediately remind us that she is a villain and what she did. Thank you for that, Kathryn Hahn, she was born for this role.
Wondered how you would react to this. As a comic nerd I very much respect your opinions and enjoy both of your reactions. Btw that X-Turtles shirt is dope af. I’m trying to find it right now lol
Hey, Agatha had some character growth. She did sacrifice herself for Billy, even though she says it was calculated. (I assume because she knows Rio hates ghosts, per the Spirit trial.) But it is really, she just likes this ONE KID because he reminds her of Nicky. And usually I hate those kind of stories, like why can’t you just see the value in a person without it being related to you somehow. But Agatha is a serial killer who has been conning people for hundreds of years… so baby steps.
Great reaction. and a great show. A rewatch will bring up so many dropped hints about the twist in the road being Billy's creation. Some were shown during Billy's realization scene, but there were many other clues. At the beach house, why would Agatha pour out her wine? Why did she feel so trapped there, to the point of trying to break out the window? In ep. 8, just before they returned to their shoes on the road, Billy said something like "without a green witch, we're back where we started". When they got to their shoes at the "start/end" Agatha really began to panic, and she starts directing her screams at Billy "So how to we get off the road!!?" He begins to mumble something... and she shouts "If you don't know, then keep quiet!". It seemed she was afraid if he started to think of things, it all might change the rules of the road, and maybe not for the better.
Another interesting line in ep. 1 is when Detectives Agatha and Rio were talking: Rio asks "Do you remember why you hate me?"
Just one more thought... about Nickolas: People always thought he was taken as a baby, and were shocked when we heard him talk at the Ouija session. We now know from ep.9 he was developing the moral compass that killing, even witches, was wrong. He saw his mother killing Alice, and said that chilling line "Mama. Stop!". Also likely why Agatha didn't want to face him in the afterlife, since he knew of all her continued killing. I don't know how prevalent this idea is, but growing up I was told that age seven was deemed the "age of reason" where a child was old enough to understand "right from wrong"; A younger child would not be judged in the afterlife for their errors. But at seven years old they were expected to take responsibility for their actions. Nicki was starting to realize killing was wrong. Had he lived, he likely would have continued helping his mother kill witches. Rio took him at age six and didn't let him cross the threshold where he would have been judged harshly for his complicit actions, especially because he knew it was wrong. Just some thoughts that came to me watching the finale. Anyway, I hope in a future series, we continue to see Billy, Agatha, and even Rio.
Great ending! Great show!
Off: That Psylocke #1 comic behind you! I got it too! Kwannon is such a nadass!
I think we could see Jennifer Kale pop up in a Midnight Sons show, she has some connections there.
I think Childrens Crusade is the next logical step for these characters, you pretty much have a full roster now minus Tommy and Teddy we also have Vision Quest coming up which could introduce Tommy and Viv and we could potentially see Billy and Agatha show up there next to find Tommy and if SWORD is involved introduce Teddy.
Nicky came up witches road song
The next wanda like thing is vision quest
I love your channel. I think that Rio was merciful to Agatha the entire time. She initially says, "I can offer only time." She was also merciful in taking Nicky. Imagine what would have happened if Agatha was awake when Nicky died. Any mother would fight to the death to save her child. I think that Rio simply avoided that confrontation. And...she kept her word.
Thanks to Julia and Trent! 🧙♀
So many people have remarked on how "cruel" it was that Rio didn't tell Agatha how much time she'd have with Nicky. I find that odd, because ... that's basically what everyone goes through. Literally nobody knows how much time their children will have. So from Death's point of view, Agatha did receive a gift: she got time that countless others had been denied. Yes, Agatha's pain would arguably be worse for having experienced the time with Nicky, but it was a gift from Death that was unique to her.
I also disagree that Agatha was draining power from other witches specifically for Nicky; she may have hoped she was prolonging his life by gaining more power, but she had clearly been stealing power from other witches even in Salem, some 60 years earlier than when Nicky died.
I saw an interview with Jac Schaeffer in which she explained that Agatha's killing spree after Nicky died was partly Agatha's way of keeping her memories of her son alive; the Ballad being their creation meant that singing it and continuing the con was a way for her to grieve. Which, of course, is tragic in that it also added to Agatha's shame and guilt, making it that much harder for her to face Nicky now in the afterlife.
That whole theory about Agatha killing witches to distract death or to prolong Nicky‘s life came out of nowhere. I’ve watched this episode a few times and never see anything to indicate that that’s what is going on. It’s been well established that she kills witches to steal their power, but also because she doesn’t trust them based on what her mother and her original coven tried to do to her. I also see people say “the one day she doesn’t kill witches death comes for her son”. So are we saying she killed witches every single day for six years? That doesn’t make any sense.
@@jcs1025 Yeah, and you'd think she'd have found time to run out and murk someone if she knew it was life/death for the kid.
They way RIo acted "cold" as you said, I think it's because she bent the rules for Agatha in a way she never has since the beginning of the universe and Agatha instead hates her and says she gave her nothing. Supposing that they had been together for a long time before Nicky then Agatha probably knew how it all worked and yet when it came to Nicky she just couldn't accept it and wanted Rio to break the rules which honestly what parent could?
Also big theory around is that Rio is the other parent and Jac Shaffer did say they cast the actor for Nicky to look like Aubrey Plaza so I imagine even if not the case because they were in a relationship she would have taken that role in his life anyway...now imagine having to take his soul to the afterlife. I think Rio showed herself in her softest form because not only was he a child, but she probably loved him too. And this meant losing both him AND Agatha.
The third part of the trilogy is "Vision Quest."
Actually Road was real she walked it with Nicky wrighting the song that turned into the witches road with Billys powers , she lied song does mean something, its Nicky song
Trent’s looking fit ❤
I had that comic from which the graphic shirt..
I really hope you guys will consider reacting to heartstopper since you like Joe Locke, its a beautiful series (and season 3 just came out on October!)
As far as i know, the next spinoff is visionquest, so i wonder if it'll be billy and tommy finding vision
Rio/Death cannot "kill" an individual. She just gathers to souls when the person dies.
I agree, but maybe the rules change when you break a deal with her. Then she gets to say "one of you is coming with me."
@@ParticleZon, Death still needed one of them to volunteer.
@@LeeCarlson Once Billy showed up and she gave them a choice, sure. But she seemed to be doing her d*mnedest to kill Agatha before that point. "You're coming with ME."
I came up with the "You don't break a deal with Death" explanation for myself, because I wanted the "Death, doesn't kill" rule to have some consistency.
I do wonder how much we'll see of Aubrey Plaza in the future MCU. As Death, she'd obviously be all over the place, but when/where would it be appropriate to actually bring her back on screen? Should be interesting to see what they do with her going forward.
Agatha didn't consume power to protect Nicolas. She was doing that before he was born. She even tells him she has no power to protect him. She's a succubus witch from birth. Hence her mother's deplorable cry that she should have killed her at birth. Plus as seen in the last episode. Agatha can stop sucking the power from witches at any point. Like she stopped with Billy. But she didn't want too. Even with Alice. Agatha is a villain with a soft spot for her son & Billy. The reason why she doesn't want to face Nicholas is because what a poor life she gave him. Just wandering around and living in the woods using him in her con. When she could have given him a home & prehaps extended his life for longer.
I agree with half of this. Agatha didn't start killing witches for power when Nicholas was born. She'd probably been doing it since her coven decide that her natural ability to absorb magical power was somehow evil and never made an effort to help her learn to control it. And she struggles to control it. In Alice's instance, she couldn't control it. The show runners and Hahn have confirmed that. But she was perfectly willing to kill Alice in her basement, so it's not as if Agatha isn't a predator. Just that it WAS beyond her control with Alice. So why with Billy? Because Billy is like a firehose of power. She could actually feel full enough to manage some control. Jac spoke about it in an audio interview with the House of R. Those aren't her exact words but the essence of it. Billy as complex carbs.
I think people think she started when Nicky was born because she says, "I think we're going to be very good at this." A hungry baby makes a great prop to get you past those protection wards. Maybe she was trying to build power, but did she seriously think she could gather power to hold off Death? Maybe when you're a mother you think anything might work. Just not living with actual healers or people with divination magic because her mother taught her that other witches would eventually try to kill her.
I feel sorry for Rio. I don't get the sense that she decides people's fates. She's responsible for maintaining the flow/balance, but if she could choose, would she have chosen to have Nicky be stillborn? She can stretch the timing of things, apparently, but there may be limits. The show intentionally didn't get into that stuff.
What I do understand is why Agatha can't easily forgive her for being the hand that took her son. It would always have been too soon. Tragic for them.
I think one thought that Agatha may have had was if she kept Rio busy with other souls, then she could get Nicky more time.
@@cerberus01 I find this one hard to buy because surely Agatha knows the scope of Rio‘s power. Agatha killing a few witches isn’t gonna keep the cosmic entity of Death very busy.
@@jcs1025 Agree. And she's hardly going to forget about her lover's child.
I don’t believe Agatha killing had anything to do with Nicky and death. I think Agatha’s power set is that of a succubus. That just her natural power. And it may be rare and feared amongst the witch race. And because her natural ability pretty much makes her a killing machine who survives through others life forces, death sees her as interesting. Similar to how death loves Deadpool who cannot die. She is infaturated with those that she cannot have. Agatha kills to survive and she knows if other witches find out, they would kill her because she is always predator.
Your final sentence is 100% correct. Agatha started killing because because witches tried to kill her. But she doesn't absorb life forces. She is not a vampire. She absorbs power, not life. It turns out that a witch doesn't survive having all of her power drained. She wouldn't need to absorb power if she was content to do "analog magic". But she needs to use "her purple" to blast/levitate/shield/etc. And her power does kick in automatically when she's attacked.
They never explained what Death sees in Agatha. It's just clear she's deeply in love with her, to the extent that she pursues Agatha when she knows Agatha hates her because she did her job.
Could you react to Heartstopper? Joe Locke plays one of the main characters, and it's such a cute and wholesome show! It's based on graphic novels by Alice Oseman, and I highly recommend it.
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Wait… Have you guys not seen Joe Locke in Heartstopper?!?!
She knew she had limited time with Nicky but she used him…just like she did everyone else.
Fun fact the boy is actually kathryn hahn son
We have two more spinoffs before Wanda comes back for Avengers Doomsday and Secret Wars I still think she's alive I think they're gonna show that Doctor Doom took her into his universe
The fact that Billy broke her spell over Agatha is a clear indication that she’s alive since Strange tells Ebony Maw in infinity wars that breaking a dead person’s spell is impossible.
Watch the Xena Warrior Princess series from the 1990s!
I don’t think Joe and Patti outperformed Kathryn… at all. What I do think is they leveled up to the effort she was giving as the lead and delivered. I think the distinction you feel is the way they were written as characters. Billy and Lilia are given heroic arcs, even if a bit of a con on Billy’s part . They are written with obvious tropes that range from disarming, likable, innocent, to heroic and sympathetic.
Agatha requires so much more commitment to watching her expressions, or even just studying the way her face looks and her voice sounds when she tells the truth. She is telling the truth to Billy all season whenever he directly asks her or challenges her.
Examples:
When she tells Billy she couldn’t control her power when she killed Alice.
When she asks him to “juice her up” and he accuses her of killing him and/or leaving him behind. She is telling the truth when she says she won’t.
Kathryn was the GOAT. I spent a good long time just watching her body language as Agatha, with her hands in her pockets, her hips jutting out--or cocked to the side--and That Coat!! Agatha is a performer and Kathryn managed to show us both the performance and the truth beneath so many times. I am smitten! 💜💜💜💜
I don't know how I feel about Ghost Agatha. I know it's comics-accurate, but... eh, it feels a little cheesy to me. Maybe it'll grow on me in future appearances.
Agatha's character annoys me. Not because of her, and not because it's bad writing, but because she's *impossible to read* 😅She's written so well, but she has so many layers of masks that I can't figure out her motivations for anything. She's got the real Agatha core, the layer of insecure facade (the "tough act"), the layer of con artist... and I can never tell which layer is motivating which of her behaviors 😅 As someone who's a hobbyist writer, getting into the mind of a character is something I love doing, so it's frustrating to have finally met a character I *cannot figure out* 😂
There is a Wiccan series in the works.
this isn’t confirmed
Yes it is confirmed. The director is talking to her team about it then Disney boss and then will decide but they said it's looking good that it will definitely happen.
@@juliewinfield5986 nope they are focusing on young avengers. theres nothing announced for a wiccan solo project
@@freeride_99 it been said on marvel own page there are talking about it and that it looking good that will happen and I think marvel know more what happening than anyone.
You've changed since your corporate sponsorship! you use to do this for the love and now you do it purely for the profit.