Well done. The actual positioning of the mag filter is usually a question of convenience/future ease of access as long as it is on the return. Theoretically, better on the return just prior to the buffer (to prevent the buffer getting full of crap) but I would not lose any sleep over where it is now.
Nice explanation. We are in the Netherlands with a gas system still and something I keep finding is that the UK does not seem to often talk about smart thermostats with OpenTherm. Here the requirement for newer systems is that the room thermostat talks to the boiler and sets the demand not just as on and off but as an output level. This means that if the room with the thermostat is especially cold then it can demand the boiler fire at full power and if the room is almost at temperature it can demand a lower output. I'd imagine that we also have outside temperature compensation and to be honest I'd have thought that a simple system would just rely on internet connectivity to get the approximate local temperature so that in the depths of winter the flow rate can be adjusted.
Yes, it is surprising that modulating controls like those that use the opentherm protocol haven't become standard since our regulations changed here in 2005. From my little sample, more than half of the plumbers I spoke with were either unaware of or reluctant to deal with modulating controls. There seems to be a deeply entrenched habit of on/off switching controls that will die a death eventually. The problem as I see it as an outsider is that good control of a gas boiler may gain you 10% in efficiency but good control of a heat pump could be a difference of 200%!
@@UpsideDownForkActually plumbers are the bane of the industry. We have had a couple of generations of poorly educated plumbers slinging combis on the wall and leaving an inefficient boiler operating in the customer’s home - because they do not understand themselves how to get the best of a gas boiler - so they avoid the subject with the customer. Plumbers are poorly educated and are not heating engineers, plumbers will generally tell customers that weather compensation just does not work.
Had a quick look at these already but thanks for talking through it. I really want to fit this myself, be good fun :-) Just need loads more time and money :-/
Don't we all! More time and money would be great! I reckon I could manage to install one now I've seen what's involved...but! With the government grant and zero rated VAT it's cheaper to pay someone else to do it 👍
Hi great explanation (especially for us less inclined to be totally interested in full system explanations). My biggest concern, as we are looking to get some quotes for a heat pump system, is the amount of space that all the components will take. We have a combi boiler that’s it, so you can imagine having a immersion tank, plus any other required components (expansion tanks etc) will mean we have to find somewhere for those units to go. I am wondering if that in the future that a larger but more compact combi electrical system may become available, I’m even considering splitting the heating and hot water systems which yes means more system components, but I think that more electrical alternatives will become available as we move to a ‘non’ gas environment. Sorry this might have been a bit of a mind dump!
Yes, I fully appreciate those concerns! It was the reason we didn't opt for a HP in our last house. Terrace house with combi boiler and no where to stick a cylinder, with 3 kids we were already bursting at the seems so couldn't have even built a cupboard or anything! If we had loft space then we could have fitted a horizontal cylinder and expansion tanks up there but we already had the loft converted unfortunately.
Regarding the MagFilter position - I believe they are generally shown in the Rad htg. circuit and not the 'whole system return' as modern plumbing in the HW system will be in Copper, Brass or Stainless Steel which generally doesn't rust as opposed to the space htg. system which largely has steel rads and is a good source of rust / magnetite! Having where you do won't hurt anything but will only pick up the debris after its passed ALL around the WHOLE system. A good system chemical treatment will minimise rusting but it still does occur.
Mag filters are fitted in the return near the boiler. Magnetite and other contaminants can occur anywhere within the system. The positioning in the boiler return is to prevent ingress into the boiler where most damage can be caused and to comply with manufacturers warranty requirements. Fitting a filter does not negate the necessity of having system corrosion inhibitor added to maintain efficiency and longevity of system componants. Inhibitor should be routinely checked and re-dosed as necessary particularly when the system has frequently been topped-up and drained/ refilled, which typically isn't done.
Thanks for the comment. Yes, we have 10mm microbore drops for the downstairs rads. We have the buffer as a precaution rather than a necessity. It helps with volume for defrost, and allows the heat pump to vary it's flow and DT as necessary without affecting the heating circuit side.
Really could do with the link to the files you was showing installing my first one and used to wiring other units, plz let me know where i can find these ?
Talking about secondary circulation is complicating things a bit, especially for those who are not plumbers. A secondary circuit is just two domestic hot water pipe leading away from the cylinder to create a loop out to the furthest point in the house with a bronze pump that circulates the domestic hot water so one doesn’t have to wait to get hot water. Most houses don’t have this, it’s mainly use in hotels and very large house like Buckingham palaces!
Yes, very true. They seem to be fairly common on generously proportioned new build houses from what i'm seeing. I guess people are just becoming more impatient! Sorry if I muddied the water but ultimately a secondary return is the same for gas or HP, that's the point I was trying to make.
@@UpsideDownFork instant (heated at point of use) is more efficient than stored hot water that has to travel long distances through non insulated pipes to the point of use.
@@David-bl1btbuilding regs require all pipes to be lagged and a well built house will have good wall thickness and high performing pipe insulation. If the hot water is produced by a 300%+ efficient heat pump then even with the incidental losses of storing and transporting hot water, a point of use water heater will never match it's efficiency.
All of the 10mm copper microbore drops remain in place. I did the calculations and even the living room heat loss is not high enough to require 15mm copper.
the electric immersion heater can be used for legionella management. set the thermostat at 60 deg and schedule via a timer to run a cycle, say, once per week. Then once you have a tank of 60 deg water run your shower(s) for a minute as the shower head is the most vulnerable place for legionella contamination particularly if left unused for a lengthy period, for example when away on holiday.. I always spray my shower head regularly with a suitable disinfectant in any case.
This is a good summary of why most heat pump owners conduct their own risk assessment and heat their DHW to 45-50 degrees. www.heatgeek.com/hot-water-temperature-scalding-and-legionella/
I think people are far too concerned about legionella in domestic hot water systems. If the water is being used and flushed through on a daily basis it really isn't an issue. I have a Mixergy tank which has a weekly legionella cycle, I asked Mixergy to disable it and they did so. I had to indicate that I understood the risks and it was down to me if I became ill.
Great video - super useful and very clearly explained!
Thanks for the comment!
Well done. The actual positioning of the mag filter is usually a question of convenience/future ease of access as long as it is on the return. Theoretically, better on the return just prior to the buffer (to prevent the buffer getting full of crap) but I would not lose any sleep over where it is now.
Thanks for commenting! That's my feeling too.
Nice explanation. We are in the Netherlands with a gas system still and something I keep finding is that the UK does not seem to often talk about smart thermostats with OpenTherm. Here the requirement for newer systems is that the room thermostat talks to the boiler and sets the demand not just as on and off but as an output level. This means that if the room with the thermostat is especially cold then it can demand the boiler fire at full power and if the room is almost at temperature it can demand a lower output. I'd imagine that we also have outside temperature compensation and to be honest I'd have thought that a simple system would just rely on internet connectivity to get the approximate local temperature so that in the depths of winter the flow rate can be adjusted.
Yes, it is surprising that modulating controls like those that use the opentherm protocol haven't become standard since our regulations changed here in 2005.
From my little sample, more than half of the plumbers I spoke with were either unaware of or reluctant to deal with modulating controls.
There seems to be a deeply entrenched habit of on/off switching controls that will die a death eventually.
The problem as I see it as an outsider is that good control of a gas boiler may gain you 10% in efficiency but good control of a heat pump could be a difference of 200%!
@@UpsideDownForkActually plumbers are the bane of the industry. We have had a couple of generations of poorly educated plumbers slinging combis on the wall and leaving an inefficient boiler operating in the customer’s home - because they do not understand themselves how to get the best of a gas boiler - so they avoid the subject with the customer. Plumbers are poorly educated and are not heating engineers, plumbers will generally tell customers that weather compensation just does not work.
@@normanboyes4983 i've definitely learnt that there's a considerable difference between a plumber and a heating engineer!
Had a quick look at these already but thanks for talking through it. I really want to fit this myself, be good fun :-) Just need loads more time and money :-/
Don't we all! More time and money would be great! I reckon I could manage to install one now I've seen what's involved...but! With the government grant and zero rated VAT it's cheaper to pay someone else to do it 👍
Hi great explanation (especially for us less inclined to be totally interested in full system explanations). My biggest concern, as we are looking to get some quotes for a heat pump system, is the amount of space that all the components will take. We have a combi boiler that’s it, so you can imagine having a immersion tank, plus any other required components (expansion tanks etc) will mean we have to find somewhere for those units to go. I am wondering if that in the future that a larger but more compact combi electrical system may become available, I’m even considering splitting the heating and hot water systems which yes means more system components, but I think that more electrical alternatives will become available as we move to a ‘non’ gas environment. Sorry this might have been a bit of a mind dump!
Yes, I fully appreciate those concerns! It was the reason we didn't opt for a HP in our last house. Terrace house with combi boiler and no where to stick a cylinder, with 3 kids we were already bursting at the seems so couldn't have even built a cupboard or anything!
If we had loft space then we could have fitted a horizontal cylinder and expansion tanks up there but we already had the loft converted unfortunately.
Regarding the MagFilter position - I believe they are generally shown in the Rad htg. circuit and not the 'whole system return' as modern plumbing in the HW system will be in Copper, Brass or Stainless Steel which generally doesn't rust as opposed to the space htg. system which largely has steel rads and is a good source of rust / magnetite! Having where you do won't hurt anything but will only pick up the debris after its passed ALL around the WHOLE system. A good system chemical treatment will minimise rusting but it still does occur.
Thanks for the feedback 👍
Mag filters are fitted in the return near the boiler. Magnetite and other contaminants can occur anywhere within the system. The positioning in the boiler return is to prevent ingress into the boiler where most damage can be caused and to comply with manufacturers warranty requirements.
Fitting a filter does not negate the necessity of having system corrosion inhibitor added to maintain efficiency and longevity of system componants.
Inhibitor should be routinely checked and re-dosed as necessary particularly when the system has frequently been topped-up and drained/ refilled, which typically isn't done.
@@David-bl1btgood advice!
Nive overview. I assume you have some microbore piping on your rads. If not, I’d be surprised that you need a buffer tank for your system.
Thanks for the comment. Yes, we have 10mm microbore drops for the downstairs rads.
We have the buffer as a precaution rather than a necessity.
It helps with volume for defrost, and allows the heat pump to vary it's flow and DT as necessary without affecting the heating circuit side.
Really could do with the link to the files you was showing installing my first one and used to wiring other units, plz let me know where i can find these ?
Email me and let me know which files you need specifically.
Talking about secondary circulation is complicating things a bit, especially for those who are not plumbers. A secondary circuit is just two domestic hot water pipe leading away from the cylinder to create a loop out to the furthest point in the house with a bronze pump that circulates the domestic hot water so one doesn’t have to wait to get hot water. Most houses don’t have this, it’s mainly use in hotels and very large house like Buckingham palaces!
Yes, very true. They seem to be fairly common on generously proportioned new build houses from what i'm seeing. I guess people are just becoming more impatient!
Sorry if I muddied the water but ultimately a secondary return is the same for gas or HP, that's the point I was trying to make.
@@UpsideDownFork I wonder if they are properly insulated in new builds - if not in summer they just waste a ton of energy
@@edc1569 new builds are all about wasting energy...the amount of instant hot water taps fitted in kitchens is shocking. 😭
@@UpsideDownFork instant (heated at point of use) is more efficient than stored hot water that has to travel long distances through non insulated pipes to the point of use.
@@David-bl1btbuilding regs require all pipes to be lagged and a well built house will have good wall thickness and high performing pipe insulation.
If the hot water is produced by a 300%+ efficient heat pump then even with the incidental losses of storing and transporting hot water, a point of use water heater will never match it's efficiency.
Hydraulic separation for the laymen.
👍
This was a great video. Did you replace any of the microbore or just the radiators?
All of the 10mm copper microbore drops remain in place. I did the calculations and even the living room heat loss is not high enough to require 15mm copper.
@@UpsideDownFork so did you replace the upstairs to 15mm or is that still 10mm?
@@andrewbellinger1135 the upstairs was always 15mm.
Common practice in the 90s when our house was built.
@@andrewbellinger1135you can see much more detail in my other videos like this one here th-cam.com/video/ARVgEpFKhIw/w-d-xo.html
@@UpsideDownFork thanks. Mine is around that time but all 10 mil I think.
Can I get a copy of that Vailiant Schematic please
why not pause the video, screenshot it, crop it, and then print it if you want a hard copy.
You can find the schematic on the Vaillant website or you can e-mail me and i'll send you the PDF. My address is on the channel info page.
Any chance of the link mate i cant find your email lol @UpsideDownFork
@@qmob0121 upsidedownfork@outlook.com
@UpsideDownFork thanks I've just found it using Google
They are quite simple. Went on a free government course to understand and they made it complicated.
What a great comment!
The hot water in a cylinder should be above 50°c preferably 60°c as at 60°c legionella cannot survive, this should happen at least one a week.
If you use most of the water in the tank on a daily bases you can set lower temperatures with no risk.
the electric immersion heater can be used for legionella management. set the thermostat at 60 deg and schedule via a timer to run a cycle, say, once per week. Then once you have a tank of 60 deg water run your shower(s) for a minute as the shower head is the most vulnerable place for legionella contamination particularly if left unused for a lengthy period, for example when away on holiday..
I always spray my shower head regularly with a suitable disinfectant in any case.
@David-bl1bt - immersion not required on our heat pump. R290 which can ramp up to 75 degrees if necessary for the DHW cycle.
This is a good summary of why most heat pump owners conduct their own risk assessment and heat their DHW to 45-50 degrees.
www.heatgeek.com/hot-water-temperature-scalding-and-legionella/
I think people are far too concerned about legionella in domestic hot water systems. If the water is being used and flushed through on a daily basis it really isn't an issue. I have a Mixergy tank which has a weekly legionella cycle, I asked Mixergy to disable it and they did so. I had to indicate that I understood the risks and it was down to me if I became ill.