ANOTHER Dead TDI?? (Jetta No Start After Engine Swap - Part 1)
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 15 มิ.ย. 2023
- Deja Vu...
Another mobile call for another VW TDI crank no-start after a recent ENGINE SWAP.
The car has been down for 4 YEARS!!
Can we get it going no-parts required?
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Enjoy!
Ivan - ยานยนต์และพาหนะ
This is by far the best TH-cam channel on the internet....
I agree! PHAD FO LYFE!
Here and South main auto.eric and Vanessa Rock also
Here's a fun fact: "Roughly 5 billion videos are watched on TH-cam every day. There are over 51 million TH-cam Channels."
Mind blown!
best channel.. Its verry youtuby: its how channels should be: vlog, simple productions, real life, entertaiment, edutaiment and still exciting
You tell that to all the channels 😂
If you didn’t already, ask them if they did a rear main seal! It requires a special tool to time it to the crank and that’s where the crank sensor signal is read, not from the crank itself.
Interesting 🤔
My question? Why would they design this that way? Yeah, leave it too the germans
I think this is the problem here
Whenever I change an engine, or do a clutch job, anytime I have easy access to an engine with an external rear main seal where the engine has some mileage on it, I change the seal even if it isn't leaking. So that means I would have changed the seal in this vehicle without knowing the seal was where the crank sensor received it's signal, therefore causing the crank no-start condition. Unless there is a bulletin included with the seal, I would have missed that. Thank you for that invaluable information. I have been spinning wrenches for over forty years and I'm still learning. It seems the more I learn, the more I find out I don't know, so basically the more I learn the dumber I get.
@@JohnDoesGarage It's been a while since I messed with one, but I do think there's some kind of documentation included with the seal (at least the name brand ones!). This case is interesting though as you'd expect a cam-crank correlation fault if the seal was just timed incorrectly, as opposed to the cam signal faults. I've been led astray by fault codes before - we had a basic 2.0L VW in the shop once that had a dead miss. Faults said cylinder 3. Tech threw everything at that one cylinder, no luck. Turns out cylinder 4 had zero compression. The ECU was flagging the wrong cylinder!
Looking forward to part 2!
You know the swap was good when every module is red on the topology. :)
LMAO, YA I WAS LIKE, YIKES.
What would I check next? I'm going for a cold beer after watching this video and it ain't Bud Light. God bless you since I know there's a part 2.
You know it's going to be good when Ivan has to dig deep to resolve
If no one has already stated, VW PD engines will start on cam sensor alone. To diag crank sensor faults, this helps greatly. Simply disconnect crank sensor and car starts runs good, then all faults lay with crank sensor and all tests can be focused there.
Great tip! I did not know this 🤔
True
The crank sensor actually receives signal from the rear main oil seal. The magnetic ring is intergrated in the seal and has to be installed correctly at TDC.
I believe the oil cooler assembly has to be removed to gain access to the crank sensor. Fantastic machines 😁
Woah. I've suspected that VW keeps their engineers on fine drugs and the more I learn about these cars the more I'm convinced that it is actually true.
I think you're right on the money 👍
@@konstantintomilin1826 is HB saying the rear main has like a tone ring in it. That's pretty far out there. Hmm.
@@konstantintomilin1826 Fun fact: Most TFSI engines have electronically controlled oil pumps to minimize engine load caused by the oil pump. Same as the water pump on some VWs :D
@@tschuuuls486 Sounds like a brilliant idea xD
Hi Ivan, as far as I'm aware, most vw tdi's will run with the crank sensor disconnected, although they will have an extended crank time, as the ecu needs to detect atleast one camshaft revolution. I think it's a default strategy. A van local to me ran for months with no crank sensor, but took approx 8 seconds to fire up. Regards, Richard.
Interesting! My Mercedes will kinda not run at all without a crank sensor. Had a wire broken on mine, it would crank a long time and sputter a lot.
Once it did start, it would run very poorly and idle like it was cammed, eventually stalling out. Even when raising the rpm it would eventually misfire so badly it would stall out.
I guess the ECU was playing a game of “guess where the crankshaft is” instead of looking at the cam sensor.
For sure it rans without cam sensor, but not without crankshaft one.
Just had a Nissan doing exactly the same. Long crank but will run on cam only.
I wrestled with a used Pontiac at the dealership in Flagstaff, it also had a swapped motor and it also was the WRONG YEAR ENGINE! One thing after another then another. After it finally got sold and became a thorn in their side I told the service manager to pull the first invoices and showed him every note I had written and every time I had worked on it I got the SM initial of approval. Don't touch this car, Ivan. I have been where you are and there isno way this car is worth the future hassles and now, you touched it, now you own it!
Like RK suggested, Unplug the crank to rule out sensor/magnet/air gap fault.
I would connect the cluster and Ecu from the donor car, and place the immo chip from the donor cars key to the pickup.
This would allow you to test the engine with the original ECU.
immo in these cars is as follows. Key->cluster->ECU
You can remove the roll pin on the good cars key and remove the blade. Insert the blade in the donor cars key.
Assuming you have the donor cars key...
Another great one! Keep them coming.
Excellent teaching techniques ! Excellent video shots to go with the coaching !! Thanks Ivan !!!
Work for truck main dealer and years ago one of our techs replced a clutch and removed flywheel to change spigot bearing. He the put flywheel back on missing the locating dowel and tightened the bolts up with a windy gun as you would. The problem was, the flywheel needed to be located on the pin to time the engine. When he got it back together, it didn't start. When stripped back down, the dowel was in mushroom form 😂
Very curious for Part 2. Thanks for your time
Tons of great ideas in the comments. Great video. Can't wait for the update.
Ivan,, this is a 30 tooth -1 and -2 so you need 5 missing tooth sections for one CRANK 720*, your rulers are a little to the left for your specific purposes, 30 x 4 totthed sections (between 5 missing sections) =720* ckp. Each CKP missing tooth section is 720 / 4 = 180* per ckp section and 180 / 30 = 6* per ckp tooth. You can also see the engine struggling during compression and could hear that also during the cranking cadence audible test earlier in the video. Your rulers if meant to be TDC and the struggling ckp are not aligned at TDC based on the struggling slow crank section, still watching the video now.
As others have mentioned , a shot with Ether ( starting fluid ) or as it is known in Australia the cans are labelled "Start-Ya-Bastard" ; quick squirt of ether just to see if engine mechanically runs.
Years ago, Country Music singer Jason Aldean had a song out called, "That's the only way I know.." Part of the lyrics says, "Dig a little deeper 'til you just can't dig no more." That describes you perfectly, Ivan. Great video!
And the AC Flaps motors in background 😂....again Standard for those models and Production years. Great channel and good job Ivan. 👌
If they have replaced the crank rear seal it is timed,simple test is just disconnect crank sensor and it will start after a long crank if this is your problem, had a similar case on a Passat.also make sure cam pin slot .the cam has 2 slots behind the pulley, so position of cam reluctor and pulley can catch you out.
Those notches on cam wheel indicate advance of injection moment, so could be +/-5 degree out due to under that sprocket is separate wheel. Also injectors needs to register in ECU, fuel line pressure needs to in spec, and cranking speed over setup limit. One of them missing and you can try whole day crank and it will not start. Looking for 2nd part
As other guys already stated, I would say it's incorrectly installed rear main seal! It should be installed at exact point based on position of crankshaft.
Love your GPS under the mirror.
Id recommend to unplug the crank sensor and see if it runs on just the cam signal. If yes id try to locate a known good cam/crank correlation waveform. Good luck.
Glowplug open circuit codes in part 2 maybe. Looks like a good one Ivan!
Had one do the same thing years ago passat 1.9pd it to was throughing up camshaft correlation fault.with a bit of investigation I found out the Back oil seal was changed in another shop.but the shop that did it didnt no that pick up ring located inside the oil seal housing was timed.they never locked the engine to top dead center or used the proper vw tool to install the new pick up and back oil seal.I locked the engine up top dead center removed the transmission clutch and flywheel installed new oil seal and pick up ring
And thankfully it worked out 😊
Your video presentation was good and improving!
Ivan.. Look up "magnetic viewing film", it's a super cheap, translucent green plastic looking sheet that will cause the magnetic fields to show up in the film; It's super useful when looking at magnets that are under the surface, pretty cool little tool.. like X-ray vision.
Seal behind the flyingwheel is the crank sensor - with magnets. It’s possible that it’s not installed correct. It have to be installed with special tools.
What would I do next? Have the thing cubed.
Agree! worn out turd, not worthy of a new engine
@@scrappy7571 Hey at least it's a stick shift! #savethemanuals ;)
I'm going to watch and see. You better not be lying.
Interesting. Going to have to watch again before submitting a guess. 👍👍🇺🇸
Maybe the rear main seal has an alignment mark that is position specific. I'd look up the Service Data for installing a new crank sensor and rear main seal is see if there's anything interesting to be learned there.
YGBSM Weasel 👍
you got it right Mate
I recall not long ago you had one where a wrong year sensor was left installed in a swapped engine, and the ecu was expecting the opposite polarity signal, so it threw a performance code...
Hi Ivan, I didn't see you do a pin fitment test and a resistance check between the inside of that pin its corresponding wire outside. If there is resistance in between the contacts inside the ecu connector and the ecu terminal pin you may get a performance code as the signal is being attenuated. Could also end up being an ecm issue.
The main thing that jumps out on the signal is that long spike at (13:56), that shouldn't be there. I can understand a little noise in the signal, but that spike pulls almost all the way down; and I wonder if the computer is mistaking that noise/ spike for a pulse? Lets see :) ... You can see another one at (16:48) but I'm not sure what would cause that spike. Maybe a coil shorting/ spiking voltage onto the 5v ref? I remember seeing that exact thing on a past video.. Somehow the coil was jumping through the boot and putting large noise spikes on the sensor lines, or sensor ground at least and the computer wasn't happy. (but this is a diesel-- lol.. so nevermind.. I still don't like that spike though)
I find this interesting having changed the cam belt on my Audi A6 C5 with the 1.9 pd 130 engine I remember the timing pin on the cam
EuroTrash Friday! I'm still greasy from wrenching on my Audi, perfect excuse for a 23:33 minute break.
I would spray it with eather to see if just a fuel issue.....plus i would be checking grounds and quality of installation......im sure you'll find issue and sort it 👌
This going to be a good one
This is similar to the first generation Ford Focus where the ABS wheel speed sensor signal comes from the wheel bearing grease seals, they have magnets in them too.
T.Y. I did not know that, WOW.
I have a 1st gen Ford Focus but i don't have ABS lol. That is quite interesting. But yeah this car has lots of interesting designs cuz it is European designed.
If they installed the flywheel with an impact the demagnetized the crank. That’s more than likely your issue. We had hundreds of 2.0 tdi Passats at the factory where they changed the process. And they found out the vibrations of an Impact demagnetized the crank.
I would check and make sure nothing is magneticly stuck on the crank like on some wheel speed sensors. Making it act crazy, like from the seal or some thing
Reluctor wheel need Install whith special tool on the crankshaft
Check the ECU pinouts correspond with the harness , the engine did run in the old car but are the ECU the same with pinouts
what a cliffhanger 😁 i wonder if the crank got demagnetized from a missing ground cable ??
Seems odd to use a magnetic ring on a crank as they lose magnetivity at or over 80C.
I think number one cylinder is at the flywheel. Had a tdi trick me with glow plugs a year ago.
The reluctor wheel should be placed in between Crankshaft and flywheel. It looks like a part of the rear seal ..
Got to love a good brain tease puzzle
Hi Ivan, please, please, please put a link to the other part vids in the description. It makes it easier for future viewers. Cheers.
I'm thinking like everyone else; the rear main seal was damaged or replaced improperly; the trick will be how to diagnois without taking the engine apart.
this kind of futzery would scare most folks off.. takes lots of confidence in your skills to take on a mess like this.
energize the elec. fuel pump once. make sure ALL the glowplugs are pulling the correct amps
Ahh the VW 'clean' diesel engine!! I like the Crankshaft sensor troubleshooting which involves a 5v power check and a 1.5 ohm resistance check and ends with replacing the engine computer. Whats with all the glowplug codes?? Will the engine try to run with the forbidden 'starting fluid'?
I'm curious about the glow plug circuit low codes.
I'd check those out next.
They were probably disconnected at some point to check for compression and never reconnected... I sure hope so.
You mentioned the replaced the flywheel? Did they replace the rear main seal? VW requires specialty Tool T10134 This sets the seal the right depth not to interfere with the Crank Sensor, you might see if you're getting signal or disconnect the sensor and crank the engine. PD will start with out the crank sensor but won't start with a sensor it can't read.
Did they replace the oil seal behind the flywheel? There's a ring for the crankshaft sensor, if incorrectly installed, it won't start.
As far as i am aware, you will get sporadic cam and sometimes crank sensor performance fsults if there is a long crank to start or crank no start. Look for what causes a long crank instead of chansing that cam fault directly. Glowplug harnesses are common to burn out and go jnto limp mode and cause no start. Another thing to consider is if they timed the engine using thr aftermarket flywheel and peep hole on bellhousing for a timing mark, very often they are incorrectly marked. Use crank pulley markings and cam pin hole. Lock pin hole in place then loosen the cam gear bolts and time crank acordingly. Then you are in time. Pump may also have a pin hole to lock in. Could be 180⁰ out.
Ivan, you left us in suspense.
HA that means I accomplished my goal ;)
What is the engine code to the TDI. 2004-2055.5 was the BEW engine code in the Jetta. 2005.5 to 2005 was engine code BRM.
Is it getting fuel from the filter to the cam-driven tandam pump? Believe unit injectors so no high-pressure pump. Are the injectors getting a signal to fire? Is the flapper valve on the intake opening to allow air in to allow it to get compression to start? They like to stick closed.
Maybe you did this already, but I'd make sure the sensor signals were getting to the right pins of the engine computer. While the harness seems closer to the next model year, it may not be exact. The glow plug codes bother me. Might be related, might not. Sure, it's not the cause, but sometimes it pays to fix the problems you can see as it may fix or at least uncover the ones you can't. It should be dead simple to chase the glow plug issue.
You have number 1 glowplug out so may as well put a pressure sensor in there and track it against cam and crank sensor on the pico. Then you know for sure you have absolute correlation and not a slipped tone ring or any other monkey business. It might not hurt to look up the exact setting criteria for that code too.
Keep at it Ivan, the cranking doesn't sound right.
Fuel. Then make sure scoped data is compared to a known good. I’m wondering if ECU is telling injectors to fire at all.
Since the engine was swapped I would check all the basics first. Powers and grounds to the ECU and all Sockets to all elements that provide timing info to ecu. Did known good waveform exactly match waveform from this car.... I thought the Crank timing was markedly different from your other example, do you have another from same make and model??
Well, I would do a compression test. Looks like your signals are good getting back to the computer so sensors, timing, wiring are fine. If compression test is good, check fuel pressure and if injectors are working. Its possible the correlation code is coming up because the car is not starting, although that would be weird.
Remember, the engine donor drove into the shop. It's a running engine. Well, was.......
@@dans_Learning_Curve well, im not saying thats what it is.. im just saying thats what i would verify next
I will go with an Eric O sort of a thing. If you can't figure out how to get past your current position, consider following down another symptom. Perhaps they have something in common. Multiple glow plug failures may suggest an overall electrical issue. Track that issue down, and you might have a better answer. You might also want to check to see if there is in fact and fuel getting delivered. The car may be using the 3xx error codes as a reason to keep the fuel pump turned off and not fire the injectors.
But I proved there is injector activity with the scope, just the sequence was completely incorrect :)
Interesting case, Ivan! Engine swaps always bring some little thing no one noticed or knew about. For now, seems you need to check the whole thing - fuel pressure, compression, injectors and the crankshaft signal. Very curious for Part 2 :-)
AGREED, Can't just throw in an engine any more so much more to it.
@@NoWr2Run 👍
I don't do diagnostics so i would check-out. ;)
Have you checked whether the bottom pulley notch aligns with lower cover notch. I’ve seen sprockets wear also
These old tdi’s had direct injection the injector operated by the camshaft was in itself an individual pump - did they do anything with the injectors ie swap them over? Anyway, sure you’ve fixed it by now look forward to seeing the outcome.
I would eliminate the air in the fuel, a little spritz of starting fluid in the intake, might push the air out the fuel lines,
I had same problem with that engine timing was perfect I just luse tre bolt camshaft and move a litle to the right and car started ok no fault code
just try adjustin camshat
I don't recall seeing the "known good" cam-crank waveform. I would want to see that before going forward.
As others pointed out, rear main seal !
A bit of a warning for your launch x431 mini. Mine started to turn off and on by itself, didnt think much of it, but then it became unusable. To the point. I pulled the phone out of the case and the battery had swole up to the point that it cracked the screen. May want to change the battery out at the first sign of trouble.
Are the fuel injectors the same...or working properly. No fuel or incorrect fuel may cause a no start.
Try the easy unplug crank sensor it may run won't solve the problem it will just confirm the rear seal sensor assembly was not installed correctly. I hope I am wrong.
How do you know shit like that. VAG-expert?
are are the best in youtub my brother 🎉
Being an owner of Jetta. I believe the harness is different.
Last time the harness from the new engine was different. I think one or more pins at the ECU were in different locations on thd connector.
Very first thing I checked haha! Harnesses were identical 👍
100% replace the spark plugs lol
Interesting situation. Do all the VW small diesels crank with that cadence? It sounds like it has a compression issue. But I'm betting that it is another issue.
Pinfitment at the computer is a possibility? There were also some hefty spikes in the signals… likely from coil firings. Maybe the ecm is seeing them in the signal? Just a couple long shot ideas.
There are also people commenting on the rear main seal needing timed if it were replaced. That certainly sounds like something to have looked into!
This is a diesel engine though, there wouldn’t be any ignition coils, unless you mean other kinds of coils.
@@99domini99 lol you’re right!! Half asleep when I wrote that comment. Injector firings would be more like it!
@@jeremyah78 That sounds like a realistic option! These signals are not very tolerant to interference in my experience and even just a little bit of interference will throw off the ECU.
Way over my head, interesting content and comments. Side note; What's with the steering wheels with these cars. My 2007 & 2009 Toyota's are perfect.
Ivan, A question, why do you have the headlights on during the diagnostic/analysis process?
I worked on this vintage tdis if the ecm is not in the place it would not start the ecm uses its case as a ground point 5:13
Wish you could come look at my mk5 golf with identical engine, it's also a crank no start, timing seems right, almost fires up with starter fluid, no idea what the problem could be
I’ve always wondered where do you get you me test leads from?
I would compare pin out on harnesses
Samcrac could use your help programming an Aston Martin
I wonder if those little glitches in there are anything. Could it be a sign that the gap is poor? I assume you carefully checked the seating of both the sensors? They could have been bumped or removed during the swap.
I agree, one of those glitches is something the ecm would definitely read the falling edge
I dont suppose its lack of fuel, or fuel pressure problems etc, wonder if it would be worth sqirting a drop of easy start in the air intake, just an idea lol, wonder if the injectors are spraying, could be out fuel...has it got compression....F
Literally going through this rn with my Tiguan smh. Had to swap out another engine.
I also say the rear main seal, iv got alot of these cars for cheap because of this.
Fuel.
it's the rear main for sure
Question #2. Does that engine use oil pressure as a reference to fuel the injectors? Your scope of the piston also showed the cylinder to be dry/no fuel.
Injectors wont fire untill the ecu is happy with timming
@@richardjohnson3370 Very true, but would love to see at least if it fires over. Would eliminate a truly junk engine.
@@johnclamshellsp1969 car the engine came from drove into the shop fine to get pulled out as mentioned in the beginning
Is there a fuel injection issue firing off tdc? Fuel pressure is good? Is the engine smoking firing?