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It is and never will be too late to make indie games. Indie games will always be there, because they are now a milestone of the industry. Todays indie game designer can be tomorrows biggest game company. You never know. It is never too late.
I followed both of you now we can say for years and i see you Thomas as idol, as someone i wanna be one day. My game dev cycle is like Pokémon Anime (I wanna be the very best) hah, so i beside my steam games,(2 behind my belt,second one have Demo now) started building my portfolio and my github,eventually get kinda good at coding and 2 weeks ago i did it! I am not gonna be "youtuber game dev" but i am GAME DEVELOPER at one kinda big studio (80 people) and i am so happy after 4 years and constant learning, watching inspiration videos from you and others i am there where i always wanted to be! Do not procrastinate guys, work every day and manifest a lot! :D Have a great day anyone reading this!
Great interview, loved this format, please do more like this. Big thanks to Julien for sharing! And please bring on guests like Julian who are willing to be transparent, or are in a position to share, because so many interviews when it gets to that they arent able to because of publishers or personal reasons and it kind of becomes less interesting at that point.
It's the best time to make indie games. AAA studios are in shambles right now, but the industry keeps growing. It's extremely rare to make it with the first title you launch, but the only way to learn how to make games... is to make them!
@@middleway1704 good point! Im also learning to code and expanding my knowledge in Unity but I meant I wish I could quit my full time job and just do Game development
Indies can take greater risks, but they lack a safety net. Any game can be a miss or a hit, even if it's good it could just miss the market-window. Publisher or not, having cash on hand means you can make more games over the long term. Most indies don't have that buffer.
Indie games are a lot less susceptible to 'market windows' because for the most part they're trying to stand out by doing something unique rather than trend chasing. What they need to do is succeed technically, mechanically, and aesthetically, and also have decent marketing.
@benpielstick Market windows are audience tastes and their sense of value. Not about trend-chasing. For ex, pixel-platformers hit the nostalgia button for folks who grew up in the 80s & 90s, but they're declining in popularity because those folks are aging out of reaction-games, and younger folks have different nostalgia. Genres, artstyles, even platforms, all of them have an ebb & flow. What might have been a marketable game in 2023 might be more or less successful in 2025, even if it's an evergreen sort of game, no trend-chasing involved.
@@mandisaw I was literally born when years you mentioned were long in the past, and still love pixelart and games like that, so what you're saying is not very true
@justsomenamelesssoul8097 I love '60s Classic Rock, despite growing up in the 80s, but that doesn't change the general market, dude 🤷♀️ There are always outliers.
@@mandisaw this doesn’t change year over year as much as you might think, especially when it comes to indie games. Unless you’re delaying your release date for multiple years (in which case, what are you even doing?) this really isn’t something to be concerned about.
Frankly I'm getting sick of your channel pumping out these scare tactic clickbait titles to try to coerce up and coming indies to buy your needless courses. I'm learning everything I need to know, and more, from literally just doing stuff and talking to other devs. The largest dataset ever conceived is at every users fingertips, so I get you're trying to have some sort of value, but there's a LOT of value in just being genuine and not appearing like a salesman constantly. I don't trust your words when this is how you calculate your online presence.
A very harsh but honest comment and I wholeheartedly agree. I get that he's pushing for the algorithm but frankly it's infuriating and toxic to the indie game dev scene. It upsets me when I see people like this with 400k subscribers, and genuine, helpful devs with less than 10k subs. To be fair it's not completely Thomas's fault - it's what YT pushes on their creators. They're the real culprit here, but individuals can make a choice whether to give in or fight against it. Doesn't he get enough money from his YT videos and games that he's made? Why does he need to push expensive courses on desperate indie game devs who have very little money to begin with? I haven't bought his courses but I imagine it's all the same ol' stuff.
@@FoxyFernAnimation YT is not the culprit. They cannot detect what are "clickbaity" titles (It least I hope they can't-yet). If a clickbait video wouldn't get clicks after release, it wouldn't be shown to millions of users. So the viewers themselves are to blame by falling for clickbait.
@@sinkingdutchman7227 It's a little bit of everything really. It's YT's fault for using an algorithm that incentivizes clickbaity videos. It's Thomas's fault for giving into this for his own personal gains instead of putting greater emphasis on the quality of the content and doing what's best for the community. But yes, thirdly(although least importantly), viewers(myself included unfortunately) are also giving into this algorithm. I, for one, however, will no longer be watching Thomas's content because of this unless he makes a real effort to change it. Unfortunately I'm in the minority and he's likely going to keep making trash videos anyway. But I'm glad to see other people calling out this BS in the comments.
You are obviously far too soft to make an indie game if this title triggered you. It's the question he leads with in order to get some insight from someone WHO IS DOING THE THING, not clickbait.
@@GroundbreakGames Lmao okay bud. I've literally been working in game development for 10 years. "Triggered" is a ridiculous word to use here...I simply stated I'm tired of clickbait bs. Don't believe he does clickbait? Go look at all his other videos and tell me that's not clickbait. Just because someone actually asks the question inside their video it doesn't mean it's not clickbait. OBVIOUSLY it's not too late to make indie games. It's NEVER too late to make indie games. The clickbait is the scare tactic of "am I too late? did I miss out?"
Gamedev ( like any other industry ) is like a forest. Big trees fall from time to time for numerous reasons. But as everything in nature, old big trees fall ( fail ) is "bad" ( forest is damaged ) but at the same time they leave ( release ) a HUGE space for new, fresh elements of ecosystem. Also they reveal sunlight. Now not only another trees can grow, bur "gazilion" other spieces too. Even those previously not even expected to be there. They can find their place now, resources ( sun ) and enough time to grow. Also some of them will dry out, some will be "in the shadow" of others. It happens. All in all, there is a bigger space opening as those big trees are about to collapse. Some of them will stay, usually those well rooted, which is also a good thing.
@ThomasBrush I really enjoy theses videos. It gives me insight of other Game Devs perspective on building a game. I would love to see more. Have you thought of a podcast? I know you do you lives but what about just Game Dev audio talks? Good for a morning drive to work.
What's definitely true is the bar for what's considered a good game has risen substantially, whether we are talking about indie or AAA games which is just a natural function of supply and demand.
Keep pushing, if steam is a problem make your own site, market on all platforms, give your game to TH-camrs for that extra aweness boost, but all and all make the game awesome and new. 💫
The title of this video is so insane, I had to click it. Who would even think to ask this? Are videogames completely disappearing in two years? Even though, as always, the answer to every headline that ends in a question mark is no.
Great conversation. There will always be a place in the gaming sphere for indie game devs. I just wish you guys had named a few good publishers for indie devs to work with .
It is not a matter of time, it is about can you produce a well receive and well loved game and to produce a game that have those quality is never easy, it's harder if you are indie game dev with limited budget and team to help you.
I want to get into it soon, it's funny because I started learning 3D during the pandemic cause I want to make a game and now I'm a 3D generalist, but I focused too much on animation, modeling, and texturing, and I never got fully into game dev. Once I find a stable job I will get into it definitely! thank you so much for this video
I think it's a little unrealistic to conclude that the indie game market isn't struggling right now. The fact that publishers are struggling is putting strain on many indie devs and studios, but indie dev is NOT struggling to the extent that AAA and publishers are. It may be a little rough or indie companies right now, but AAA is losing so much ground, it's opening up opportunities for the indie market. And the fact that the indie market is... well, indie, means it doesn't entirely rely on the same things AAA and publishers do, and can forge its own path and take more of the market while AAA is weakened.
99.8% of Indie games just die a painful death, they're all thrown themself into a sewer, 0.2% of indie game will walk on the corpse of countless indie games before them and emerge as a winner, just because they're walking at the right time when the corpse is stiff and dense enough for it to become a bridge
A lot of indie games are just not very captivating, most people in general just don't have interesting ideas. When you make something truly good it kind of slowly rises to the top.
Good question! Build unique game which have a niches , personally i recommend to build up a community which would buy your game and only then create a game! Some people would say its like cheating, i say not it all you speak you mind and your intention and you follow trough with you implementation and people would recognise that work!
Less than 30 seconds in he says things sound “extremely encouraging” If the title gets eyes on the video who cares! I’m sure it’s a question many worry about
@@jamcakes4361 He's relying on a widespread worry to funnel easily manipulated devs with very little experience into buying advice that exists elsewhere for free. It's honestly not a great look.
The title is a simple question. Thomas asks the guest this same question at the start of the video. The two then have a real-world (and overall, rather positive) discussion on the subject. I fail to see how this is, in any way, discouraging or clickbait. Edit: I am curious on your opinion of this. Can you explain further?
@@nicejobcongratsYou don’t see it as clickbaity because you don’t want to see it as clickbaity You completely ignore subtext If the question is asked “Is it too late?”, then it is implicitly communicated that it is a worthy question to ask in the first place Why would it be “too late”? What happened? If it’s too late, how much time is left? All of those questions are invoked from a simple thumbnail, with the last one applying the pressure to act And there is nothing that happened, that would ever imply that it’s “too late” to be an indie dev It’s click-bait Don’t fool yourself Thomas is a marketer, first, it seems Don’t you think marketing geniuses put thought into their thumbnails? Wouldn’t that be their expertise? And what, then, would make one thumbnail excel over another?
- Game dev looking for a publisher - Startup looking for a Venture Capitalist investment. - Musician looking for a label Larger corporations will only give you money if you pivot or tweak your idea to what they think will make money, which generally is towards trends and popular versions of the content. As soon as you sign the contract and take the money, you are giving away control. Instead get as far as possible independently with your game, startup and music, without any investment or loss of control. Dont compromise your product for money 💰
This is a really weird marketing angle you're taking lately with trying to scare your indie dev audience with "too late" to make games. It's so inauthentic and clickbaity.
Ahh.. Thomas Brush , he crushes you in the most existential title ( mans gotta a family, has to earn..I get it ) And lifts your spirit like gamedev santa in the video 🎉
Thomas, I’ve been following your channel for years, but lately, it feels like you'll do anything to sell your "courses". While I get the entrepreneurial side of things, the titles and content have become really clickbaity. The channel's getting boring now-every video seems to push the word 'course' over and over. It’s even worse with the marketing emails you're sending every day. Come on, man-are you an indie game developer or just a course seller? I love your channel and have followed you for years, but this constant push for "courses" is too much, tone it down! Some of us just want to see devs making games and connect. We don’t want to feel like we're being milked for it. Sorry if this comes across harsh, but that’s how I feel.
I was doing my own home made non commercial project (none profit) for I created my game in note pad in text form to start with, that's how I began, I wrote out 680k lines of the game in text form with dialog it wasn't costing me anything to type up all that up because I type fast speeds so I created a rpg sci-fi type game driven with dialog, with 10 party members made the game ridiculously huge with many systems and planets that Unreal Engine can't develop it in 3d third person form because there's too many places and locations in the game.. And it was a non profit game so I didn't care about the size it was getting in text form. So I put just one level of my game in third person form in Unreal Engine because I wanted to see just how big the game was gonna take up on my computer if I convert put just one level of it in third person form. And found that one level took up too much space up with all the assets files about 20+ thousand files for building just one level of it in 3d form... So I couldn't do the game in third person because it takes up too many files up just to build one of the worlds. So I saw Unreal Engine being suitable for building small to medium sized stuff. But I had a game where the dialog branches out into multiple worlds and systems as you travel around to them..
If one had a really great idea for a game but that idea would be much over the possible for a solo dev what do you think would be the better approach? Just make the thing with a reduced functionality but in full as far as story goes or better make a small section out of it that contains really everything mechanically but is just a small part of the story? With the latter path I could then try to use this demo for finding a team, publisher or studio. But is it worth the gamble? Coding a big project just to not even be able to really sell it?
If it wasn't for Len's Island in the thumbnail I wouldn't have clicked on such a stupidly clickbait title. Great job marketing your courses to the hopeful new devs I guess... It was nice to hear from Julian Ball about his thoughts on indies working with publishers. I wish you would just get people excited about his POV in the title instead of relying on fear tactics.
5:32 basically if you go publisher route, that causes your game to get watered down and get that corporate touch which takes away the only advantage you have as an indie developer, resulting in the worst possible scenario.
can you share some specific examples of things corporate structure tends to interfere with, what specifically ends up needing to be changed? could you give one or 2 specific examples? just to fulfill my curiosity
1.Tranformational leadership in game companies. One of the reasons developers and game designers leave and build their own game. Example marvel snap was from blizzard developer that worked on hearthstone. 2. Building something that gives player value rather than exploit them for money. 3. Too many cooks in the kitchen and those making decisions are not the game designer but higher ups that only care about money and numbers
Yes it is too late. 2024 is the end *destroys 1 year game project* *sends a cease and desist to all other indie devs, stop or die by a million frogs* …no really tho there it’s never too late to be an indie dev. Unless all the computers explode at once, there is never a bad time lmao
Game developing itself will not exist as a concept by 2030. AI-emulated games are the future, so people should just focus on design (worlds, mechanics, etc.) This also means that big companies and indie developers will not survive by 2030, at best a few may survive that will provide some kind of online services. No one will pay to get a game when they will be able to ask an AI to replicate whatever they want, and then also add personal touches by just talking to their AI that emulates the game in real time.
I think if a big publisher gives you a pile of money, and also interferes in the game in a big way, you're no longer independent. The "indie" is gone. You're just a Single-A game studio now.
The value is that you get a massive lump sum of cash to pay your bills and invest in the project while you work on the game. Worth it to some and not to others so it’s very case specific
Sometimes it’s a lump sum, other times it’s a set of payments to be made on given dates or conditioned by game milestones. But yeah the value is mostly some cash in hand NOW in exchange for rights (vs potentially no cash if you self publish and the game bombs or just fails to sell). As well as a marketing budget.
What's wrong with Steam ? I don't need a publisher, just a platform for selling my game. Or am I missing something ? I am just finishing my game, and I am really surprised, that there are still publishers, that pay upfront.
Hey Thomas, I really enjoy your content-it's always inspiring! I wanted to ask you something: Is it possible to "sell" a game idea to a producer through a script, similar to how it's done in the film industry? If so, how would that process typically work? I’d love to hear your thoughts on this, maybe even see you address it in a video or other content. Thanks for your time!
Game ideas are a dime a dozen. Same with movie scripts. Almost no publisher is going to risk opening themselves up for lawsuits by even acknowledging any proposal to sell them a game script. Game writers are typically hired as part of a game’s production cycle. In some rare cases a publisher might hire an established writer as part of the preproduction. Now I can’t say it’s impossible but I’ve personally yet to see or hear of a case where a publisher bought a game script from someone who is completely new to the industry.
@@eye776 Hey, thanks for sharing your thoughts on this! I'm in a bit of a unique situation as a professor-gamer. Due to my position as a public employee, I'm unable to take on another full-time paid job. However, I'm really passionate about developing educational games with a strong narrative focus. If you have any thoughts or advice on how to get started with this, I'd love to hear them! Cheers!
Indy games are taking over the entire industry as of next year.. ubisoft and xbox studios both committing self destruction. games like Nine Sols and Animal killed it this year.. a look into what not to do.. Gimmick 2.. oh boy that' isn't doing well. I love a good platformer but man , it's hard to market them.. The Last Medic was the best game i've played since Celeste, but literally no one is playing it.. it should be in the list of Indy Games of the year 100 percent. it's so frickin good man omg, he made 200+ music tracks for it too. he's a synth musician turned game dev. So like it's hard, finding the right way to market your game is super frickin important now
Ya sure is tough these days. Just so many games out there. Last Steam next fest had over 3200 new demos to try, so even the hardcorest gamer could play what, 0.005% of those? It's tough getting any visibility at all for my own solo indie game, RoadHouse Manager (on steam wishlist today and stuff ) , I'm only getting 60 or so views a day from Steam. Just Soooo many games releasing these days. Even great games like Last Medic, as you said, get not get much notice.
@@trueoutlaw13 Check out the definition of Clickbait it can literally be in the video dosent mean its not clickbait. im ok with clickbait some of the time but Thomas abuses it alot, its like those annoying magizine headlines you see in the grocery store when your in the checkout.
@@TheVisualDigitalArts the definition of clickbait is so generic it can almost be applied to anything that piques your interest and makes you click on a link. If the title is incorrect for some reason, then that might be a better criticism, but pretty much everything on TH-cam fits the definition of clickbait. What exactly is wrong with the title of this video in particular, considering it's essentially the first question Thomas asks?
@@TheVisualDigitalArts I didn't type those words. I don't understand why the complaint of clickbait if the title of the video exactly describes the contents. I'm honestly just interested to know why you're upset about the title of the video, that's all. Ignoring the generic definition of clickbait, normally I've only seen it as an accusation when the title and contents of a video don't align🤷🏻♂️
😂 considering a one man indie developer Belatro is on track to make 100 million dollars i think that answers the question. Its not too late to make well designed games.
Publishing on itch is still free for now. But yeah that’s how things happen. Making even a simple commercial game is a big commitment. The only thing you can do is try to publish, struggle, try getting journalists and influencers to play it and hope the market favours your game.
I am not watching this video because I know the answer already. It’s always too late, you should of started yesterday, last week, last month, last year. But you didn’t so start now and in one years time it won’t be too late.
I just checked out lens island. Released in 2021 and still in early access? Is it like a slow game dev cycle? There is so much more you can do. Buy back your time and build out more games in shorter time. Expand your vision.
cmon , it's just you don't have to rely on publishers , and everything remains the same . Just make games that you can manage alone , or with your small team , in some rasonable ammount of time . Saying that now making games is late , it's just stupid , when it's not that long time ago , Lethal Company came out , made by single person in a year , so stop crying and do what you gotta do.
It will never be to late I have said this on all your videos 😂😂😂is it time late to invent the next best car is it to late to make the next best movie is it to late to make the next big scientist😂😂😂bro change the title an just say like speaking to indie developer about the industry dude
Please stop with the clickbait titles. It's all the same. It's toxic and you're making the community worse by doing this. You should be encouraging people to make games, not trying to nickel and dime them with your expensive courses when there are other genuine YT devs out there who are giving back to the community for free and offering nothing but help and encouragement.
So you do a long interview, then cut it into pieces and make clickbait videos out of em...what are you doing? This content is already on yoir channel, are you lacking ideas for new content? People are noticing man, its getting annoying.
I think if I reveal my identity in this channel an show many upcoming consoles releases for 2025 an forward everyone would be amazed but keep secret for now chat u soon MR BRUSH HEHE
@@itzhexen0i got a job my guy on lunch right now actually ^^ just a bad take, makes you seem jaded and dismissive towards the people who make those games you pirate. If everyone did as you said games wouldnt be made anymore
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The best time to start making indie games was ten years ago. However, the second best time to start is today.
Well said
TECHNICALLY 9 years an 364 days ago was the second best time XD
Reminds me of bitcoin
tthanks
Just the encouragement I needed before I drop my first game! Thanks for another good one man 🍻
It is and never will be too late to make indie games. Indie games will always be there, because they are now a milestone of the industry.
Todays indie game designer can be tomorrows biggest game company. You never know. It is never too late.
Clicked to say this. Assuming we're still around in 100 years I'm sure there will be indie games being made then as well. There is no "too late"
@@EB-bl6cc Yes!
So what is the hook of Len's Island ? What made it unique and caused its success ?
I followed both of you now we can say for years and i see you Thomas as idol, as someone i wanna be one day. My game dev cycle is like Pokémon Anime (I wanna be the very best) hah, so i beside my steam games,(2 behind my belt,second one have Demo now) started building my portfolio and my github,eventually get kinda good at coding and 2 weeks ago i did it! I am not gonna be "youtuber game dev" but i am GAME DEVELOPER at one kinda big studio (80 people) and i am so happy after 4 years and constant learning, watching inspiration videos from you and others i am there where i always wanted to be! Do not procrastinate guys, work every day and manifest a lot! :D Have a great day anyone reading this!
Great interview, loved this format, please do more like this. Big thanks to Julien for sharing! And please bring on guests like Julian who are willing to be transparent, or are in a position to share, because so many interviews when it gets to that they arent able to because of publishers or personal reasons and it kind of becomes less interesting at that point.
It's the best time to make indie games. AAA studios are in shambles right now, but the industry keeps growing. It's extremely rare to make it with the first title you launch, but the only way to learn how to make games... is to make them!
I want to do this so badly 😩
You ARE doing it, you ARE watching game dev videos already. You ARE already in the process🎉
Make a small game and see how it goes ;-)
Same bro. Im putting 30hrs in at least every week basically gambling my uni classes success. I hope it'll pay off
@@middleway1704 good point! Im also learning to code and expanding my knowledge in Unity but I meant I wish I could quit my full time job and just do Game development
@@igorthelight I've made a couple but havent published them, I want to get better before publishing a game, thanks for the advise! 😃
That ocean in Lens Island looks superb!
Indies can take greater risks, but they lack a safety net. Any game can be a miss or a hit, even if it's good it could just miss the market-window. Publisher or not, having cash on hand means you can make more games over the long term. Most indies don't have that buffer.
Indie games are a lot less susceptible to 'market windows' because for the most part they're trying to stand out by doing something unique rather than trend chasing. What they need to do is succeed technically, mechanically, and aesthetically, and also have decent marketing.
@benpielstick Market windows are audience tastes and their sense of value. Not about trend-chasing. For ex, pixel-platformers hit the nostalgia button for folks who grew up in the 80s & 90s, but they're declining in popularity because those folks are aging out of reaction-games, and younger folks have different nostalgia.
Genres, artstyles, even platforms, all of them have an ebb & flow. What might have been a marketable game in 2023 might be more or less successful in 2025, even if it's an evergreen sort of game, no trend-chasing involved.
@@mandisaw I was literally born when years you mentioned were long in the past, and still love pixelart and games like that, so what you're saying is not very true
@justsomenamelesssoul8097 I love '60s Classic Rock, despite growing up in the 80s, but that doesn't change the general market, dude 🤷♀️ There are always outliers.
@@mandisaw this doesn’t change year over year as much as you might think, especially when it comes to indie games. Unless you’re delaying your release date for multiple years (in which case, what are you even doing?) this really isn’t something to be concerned about.
Frankly I'm getting sick of your channel pumping out these scare tactic clickbait titles to try to coerce up and coming indies to buy your needless courses. I'm learning everything I need to know, and more, from literally just doing stuff and talking to other devs. The largest dataset ever conceived is at every users fingertips, so I get you're trying to have some sort of value, but there's a LOT of value in just being genuine and not appearing like a salesman constantly. I don't trust your words when this is how you calculate your online presence.
A very harsh but honest comment and I wholeheartedly agree. I get that he's pushing for the algorithm but frankly it's infuriating and toxic to the indie game dev scene. It upsets me when I see people like this with 400k subscribers, and genuine, helpful devs with less than 10k subs. To be fair it's not completely Thomas's fault - it's what YT pushes on their creators. They're the real culprit here, but individuals can make a choice whether to give in or fight against it. Doesn't he get enough money from his YT videos and games that he's made? Why does he need to push expensive courses on desperate indie game devs who have very little money to begin with? I haven't bought his courses but I imagine it's all the same ol' stuff.
@@FoxyFernAnimation YT is not the culprit. They cannot detect what are "clickbaity" titles (It least I hope they can't-yet). If a clickbait video wouldn't get clicks after release, it wouldn't be shown to millions of users. So the viewers themselves are to blame by falling for clickbait.
@@sinkingdutchman7227 It's a little bit of everything really. It's YT's fault for using an algorithm that incentivizes clickbaity videos. It's Thomas's fault for giving into this for his own personal gains instead of putting greater emphasis on the quality of the content and doing what's best for the community. But yes, thirdly(although least importantly), viewers(myself included unfortunately) are also giving into this algorithm.
I, for one, however, will no longer be watching Thomas's content because of this unless he makes a real effort to change it. Unfortunately I'm in the minority and he's likely going to keep making trash videos anyway. But I'm glad to see other people calling out this BS in the comments.
You are obviously far too soft to make an indie game if this title triggered you. It's the question he leads with in order to get some insight from someone WHO IS DOING THE THING, not clickbait.
@@GroundbreakGames Lmao okay bud. I've literally been working in game development for 10 years. "Triggered" is a ridiculous word to use here...I simply stated I'm tired of clickbait bs. Don't believe he does clickbait? Go look at all his other videos and tell me that's not clickbait. Just because someone actually asks the question inside their video it doesn't mean it's not clickbait.
OBVIOUSLY it's not too late to make indie games. It's NEVER too late to make indie games. The clickbait is the scare tactic of "am I too late? did I miss out?"
Gamedev ( like any other industry ) is like a forest. Big trees fall from time to time for numerous reasons. But as everything in nature, old big trees fall ( fail ) is "bad" ( forest is damaged ) but at the same time they leave ( release ) a HUGE space for new, fresh elements of ecosystem. Also they reveal sunlight. Now not only another trees can grow, bur "gazilion" other spieces too. Even those previously not even expected to be there. They can find their place now, resources ( sun ) and enough time to grow. Also some of them will dry out, some will be "in the shadow" of others. It happens. All in all, there is a bigger space opening as those big trees are about to collapse. Some of them will stay, usually those well rooted, which is also a good thing.
@ThomasBrush I really enjoy theses videos. It gives me insight of other Game Devs perspective on building a game. I would love to see more. Have you thought of a podcast? I know you do you lives but what about just Game Dev audio talks? Good for a morning drive to work.
every time someone asks if marketing matters Cross Code comes to mind
What's definitely true is the bar for what's considered a good game has risen substantially, whether we are talking about indie or AAA games which is just a natural function of supply and demand.
Keep pushing, if steam is a problem make your own site, market on all platforms, give your game to TH-camrs for that extra aweness boost, but all and all make the game awesome and new. 💫
The title of this video is so insane, I had to click it. Who would even think to ask this? Are videogames completely disappearing in two years?
Even though, as always, the answer to every headline that ends in a question mark is no.
Great conversation. There will always be a place in the gaming sphere for indie game devs. I just wish you guys had named a few good publishers for indie devs to work with .
I've read that Devolver Digital is a great publisher because they give Devs their creative freedom.
It is not a matter of time, it is about can you produce a well receive and well loved game and to produce a game that have those quality is never easy, it's harder if you are indie game dev with limited budget and team to help you.
I want to get into it soon, it's funny because I started learning 3D during the pandemic cause I want to make a game and now I'm a 3D generalist, but I focused too much on animation, modeling, and texturing, and I never got fully into game dev. Once I find a stable job I will get into it definitely! thank you so much for this video
I think it's a little unrealistic to conclude that the indie game market isn't struggling right now. The fact that publishers are struggling is putting strain on many indie devs and studios, but indie dev is NOT struggling to the extent that AAA and publishers are. It may be a little rough or indie companies right now, but AAA is losing so much ground, it's opening up opportunities for the indie market. And the fact that the indie market is... well, indie, means it doesn't entirely rely on the same things AAA and publishers do, and can forge its own path and take more of the market while AAA is weakened.
99.8% of Indie games just die a painful death, they're all thrown themself into a sewer,
0.2% of indie game will walk on the corpse of countless indie games before them and emerge as a winner,
just because they're walking at the right time when the corpse is stiff and dense enough for it to become a bridge
@@jensenraylight8011 This is quite the poetic way to describe the downside of the indie market. It is a big downside.
A lot of indie games are just not very captivating, most people in general just don't have interesting ideas. When you make something truly good it kind of slowly rises to the top.
Good question! Build unique game which have a niches , personally i recommend to build up a community which would buy your game and only then create a game! Some people would say its like cheating, i say not it all you speak you mind and your intention and you follow trough with you implementation and people would recognise that work!
Your titles are very discouraging and clickbaity
Have you watched the video?
Less than 30 seconds in he says things sound “extremely encouraging”
If the title gets eyes on the video who cares! I’m sure it’s a question many worry about
@@jamcakes4361 He's relying on a widespread worry to funnel easily manipulated devs with very little experience into buying advice that exists elsewhere for free. It's honestly not a great look.
The title is a simple question. Thomas asks the guest this same question at the start of the video. The two then have a real-world (and overall, rather positive) discussion on the subject.
I fail to see how this is, in any way, discouraging or clickbait.
Edit:
I am curious on your opinion of this. Can you explain further?
@@nicejobcongratsYou don’t see it as clickbaity because you don’t want to see it as clickbaity
You completely ignore subtext
If the question is asked “Is it too late?”, then it is implicitly communicated that it is a worthy question to ask in the first place
Why would it be “too late”? What happened? If it’s too late, how much time is left?
All of those questions are invoked from a simple thumbnail, with the last one applying the pressure to act
And there is nothing that happened, that would ever imply that it’s “too late” to be an indie dev
It’s click-bait
Don’t fool yourself
Thomas is a marketer, first, it seems
Don’t you think marketing geniuses put thought into their thumbnails?
Wouldn’t that be their expertise?
And what, then, would make one thumbnail excel over another?
- Game dev looking for a publisher
- Startup looking for a Venture Capitalist investment.
- Musician looking for a label
Larger corporations will only give you money if you pivot or tweak your idea to what they think will make money, which generally is towards trends and popular versions of the content.
As soon as you sign the contract and take the money, you are giving away control.
Instead get as far as possible independently with your game, startup and music, without any investment or loss of control. Dont compromise your product for money 💰
This is a really weird marketing angle you're taking lately with trying to scare your indie dev audience with "too late" to make games. It's so inauthentic and clickbaity.
Agree wholeheartedly. As if it wasn't tough enough for game devs already, this kind of clickbait is toxic to the industry.
Ooo more chats like this pls!
Ahh.. Thomas Brush , he crushes you in the most existential title ( mans gotta a family, has to earn..I get it )
And lifts your spirit like gamedev santa in the video
🎉
Is there a full video of the talk coming any time soon?
Thomas, I’ve been following your channel for years, but lately, it feels like you'll do anything to sell your "courses". While I get the entrepreneurial side of things, the titles and content have become really clickbaity. The channel's getting boring now-every video seems to push the word 'course' over and over. It’s even worse with the marketing emails you're sending every day. Come on, man-are you an indie game developer or just a course seller? I love your channel and have followed you for years, but this constant push for "courses" is too much, tone it down! Some of us just want to see devs making games and connect. We don’t want to feel like we're being milked for it. Sorry if this comes across harsh, but that’s how I feel.
I was doing my own home made non commercial project (none profit) for I created my game in note pad in text form to start with, that's how I began, I wrote out 680k lines of the game in text form with dialog it wasn't costing me anything to type up all that up because I type fast speeds so I created a rpg sci-fi type game driven with dialog, with 10 party members made the game ridiculously huge with many systems and planets that Unreal Engine can't develop it in 3d third person form because there's too many places and locations in the game..
And it was a non profit game so I didn't care about the size it was getting in text form. So I put just one level of my game in third person form in Unreal Engine because I wanted to see just how big the game was gonna take up on my computer if I convert put just one level of it in third person form. And found that one level took up too much space up with all the assets files about 20+ thousand files for building just one level
of it in 3d form...
So I couldn't do the game in third person because it takes up too many files up just to build one of the worlds. So I saw Unreal Engine being suitable for building small to medium sized stuff. But I had a game where the dialog branches out into multiple worlds and systems as you travel around to them..
2025, its time to Indie Devs team up to jam a game.
If one had a really great idea for a game but that idea would be much over the possible for a solo dev what do you think would be the better approach? Just make the thing with a reduced functionality but in full as far as story goes or better make a small section out of it that contains really everything mechanically but is just a small part of the story? With the latter path I could then try to use this demo for finding a team, publisher or studio. But is it worth the gamble? Coding a big project just to not even be able to really sell it?
Is it too late but make sure to check out my game dev course, yeah buddy 🤣
😂😅
Is there any coming promotion for your course?
A video I´ve been waiting for
If it wasn't for Len's Island in the thumbnail I wouldn't have clicked on such a stupidly clickbait title. Great job marketing your courses to the hopeful new devs I guess... It was nice to hear from Julian Ball about his thoughts on indies working with publishers. I wish you would just get people excited about his POV in the title instead of relying on fear tactics.
5:32 basically if you go publisher route, that causes your game to get watered down and get that corporate touch which takes away the only advantage you have as an indie developer, resulting in the worst possible scenario.
it better not be too late, im just getting started!
can you share some specific examples of things corporate structure tends to interfere with, what specifically ends up needing to be changed? could you give one or 2 specific examples? just to fulfill my curiosity
1.Tranformational leadership in game companies. One of the reasons developers and game designers leave and build their own game. Example marvel snap was from blizzard developer that worked on hearthstone.
2. Building something that gives player value rather than exploit them for money.
3. Too many cooks in the kitchen and those making decisions are not the game designer but higher ups that only care about money and numbers
Yes it is too late. 2024 is the end *destroys 1 year game project* *sends a cease and desist to all other indie devs, stop or die by a million frogs* …no really tho there it’s never too late to be an indie dev. Unless all the computers explode at once, there is never a bad time lmao
Game developing itself will not exist as a concept by 2030.
AI-emulated games are the future, so people should just focus on design (worlds, mechanics, etc.)
This also means that big companies and indie developers will not survive by 2030, at best a few may survive that will provide some kind of online services. No one will pay to get a game when they will be able to ask an AI to replicate whatever they want, and then also add personal touches by just talking to their AI that emulates the game in real time.
I think if a big publisher gives you a pile of money, and also interferes in the game in a big way, you're no longer independent. The "indie" is gone. You're just a Single-A game studio now.
Publishers just seem like vampires to me. I don't see the value.
The value is that you get a massive lump sum of cash to pay your bills and invest in the project while you work on the game. Worth it to some and not to others so it’s very case specific
Sometimes it’s a lump sum, other times it’s a set of payments to be made on given dates or conditioned by game milestones.
But yeah the value is mostly some cash in hand NOW in exchange for rights (vs potentially no cash if you self publish and the game bombs or just fails to sell). As well as a marketing budget.
What's wrong with Steam ? I don't need a publisher, just a platform for selling my game. Or am I missing something ? I am just finishing my game, and I am really surprised, that there are still publishers, that pay upfront.
Hey Thomas,
I really enjoy your content-it's always inspiring! I wanted to ask you something: Is it possible to "sell" a game idea to a producer through a script, similar to how it's done in the film industry? If so, how would that process typically work?
I’d love to hear your thoughts on this, maybe even see you address it in a video or other content.
Thanks for your time!
Game ideas are a dime a dozen. Same with movie scripts.
Almost no publisher is going to risk opening themselves up for lawsuits by even acknowledging any proposal to sell them a game script.
Game writers are typically hired as part of a game’s production cycle.
In some rare cases a publisher might hire an established writer as part of the preproduction.
Now I can’t say it’s impossible but I’ve personally yet to see or hear of a case where a publisher bought a game script from someone who is completely new to the industry.
If you are not Hideo Kojima then the answer is no.
@@eye776 Hey, thanks for sharing your thoughts on this! I'm in a bit of a unique situation as a professor-gamer. Due to my position as a public employee, I'm unable to take on another full-time paid job. However, I'm really passionate about developing educational games with a strong narrative focus. If you have any thoughts or advice on how to get started with this, I'd love to hear them! Cheers!
Indy games are taking over the entire industry as of next year.. ubisoft and xbox studios both committing self destruction. games like Nine Sols and Animal killed it this year.. a look into what not to do.. Gimmick 2.. oh boy that' isn't doing well. I love a good platformer but man , it's hard to market them.. The Last Medic was the best game i've played since Celeste, but literally no one is playing it.. it should be in the list of Indy Games of the year 100 percent. it's so frickin good man omg, he made 200+ music tracks for it too. he's a synth musician turned game dev. So like it's hard, finding the right way to market your game is super frickin important now
Ya sure is tough these days. Just so many games out there. Last Steam next fest had over 3200 new demos to try, so even the hardcorest gamer could play what, 0.005% of those? It's tough getting any visibility at all for my own solo indie game, RoadHouse Manager (on steam wishlist today and stuff ) , I'm only getting 60 or so views a day from Steam. Just Soooo many games releasing these days. Even great games like Last Medic, as you said, get not get much notice.
dude, these titles make me want to unsubscribe, so clickbaity.
in fact now that I remember I did unsubscibe at one point.
It's literally what they talk about in the video
@@trueoutlaw13 Check out the definition of Clickbait it can literally be in the video dosent mean its not clickbait.
im ok with clickbait some of the time but Thomas abuses it alot, its like those annoying magizine headlines you see in the grocery store when your in the checkout.
@@TheVisualDigitalArts the definition of clickbait is so generic it can almost be applied to anything that piques your interest and makes you click on a link. If the title is incorrect for some reason, then that might be a better criticism, but pretty much everything on TH-cam fits the definition of clickbait. What exactly is wrong with the title of this video in particular, considering it's essentially the first question Thomas asks?
@@trueoutlaw13 your argument was it wasn’t clickbait, it is.
@@TheVisualDigitalArts I didn't type those words. I don't understand why the complaint of clickbait if the title of the video exactly describes the contents. I'm honestly just interested to know why you're upset about the title of the video, that's all. Ignoring the generic definition of clickbait, normally I've only seen it as an accusation when the title and contents of a video don't align🤷🏻♂️
😂 considering a one man indie developer Belatro is on track to make 100 million dollars i think that answers the question. Its not too late to make well designed games.
Hello
Yes, it's too late to make indie and even non-indie games, but tomorrow will be even later. :)
Please Tomas...
Find a game that you like, but it's buried in Steam.
And ask that dev the same questions.
Survivor Bias is a thing...
Ah, yes. From gold-mining, to selling shovels, to pulling the ladder up behind you so nobody else can mine gold, the circle of capitalism is complete.
Publishing on itch is still free for now. But yeah that’s how things happen. Making even a simple commercial game is a big commitment. The only thing you can do is try to publish, struggle, try getting journalists and influencers to play it and hope the market favours your game.
"Is It Too Late To Make Indie Games?" Wasn't this supposed to be about people in their 40s, 50s and beyond who start making their own games?
I am not watching this video because I know the answer already. It’s always too late, you should of started yesterday, last week, last month, last year. But you didn’t so start now and in one years time it won’t be too late.
Yeah
Should have started 10 years ago 😔
I just checked out lens island. Released in 2021 and still in early access? Is it like a slow game dev cycle? There is so much more you can do. Buy back your time and build out more games in shorter time. Expand your vision.
honestly not sure why len's island even got successful, feels like dumb luck more than anything
cmon , it's just you don't have to rely on publishers , and everything remains the same . Just make games that you can manage alone , or with your small team , in some rasonable ammount of time . Saying that now making games is late , it's just stupid , when it's not that long time ago , Lethal Company came out , made by single person in a year , so stop crying and do what you gotta do.
It will never be to late I have said this on all your videos 😂😂😂is it time late to invent the next best car is it to late to make the next best movie is it to late to make the next big scientist😂😂😂bro change the title an just say like speaking to indie developer about the industry dude
Is it me or do all this "successful" indies just make open survival craft.
Please stop with the clickbait titles. It's all the same. It's toxic and you're making the community worse by doing this. You should be encouraging people to make games, not trying to nickel and dime them with your expensive courses when there are other genuine YT devs out there who are giving back to the community for free and offering nothing but help and encouragement.
First!!
Second!!!
My first comment in TH-cam 🎉🎉🎉
So you do a long interview, then cut it into pieces and make clickbait videos out of em...what are you doing? This content is already on yoir channel, are you lacking ideas for new content?
People are noticing man, its getting annoying.
Please stop posting videos like this. Every video I have seen from you has the most dishonest title. Unsubbing.
It's literally what they talk about in the video. It's not dishonest at all
Dude stop with these SLOP titles
I think if I reveal my identity in this channel an show many upcoming consoles releases for 2025 an forward everyone would be amazed but keep secret for now chat u soon MR BRUSH HEHE
At this point you should just pirate games. People keep teaching people how to make them so they can make money. Get an actual job.
L take
@@thussd I was talking to you I guess.
@@itzhexen0i got a job my guy on lunch right now actually ^^ just a bad take, makes you seem jaded and dismissive towards the people who make those games you pirate. If everyone did as you said games wouldnt be made anymore
@@thussd Apparently not making games.
@@thussd That's the point. Then all of you could do things that actually benefit society.
nice