Two hearts that beat as one, agony and ecstasy. Visenya the cold hearted warrior and Rhaenys the warm. Nissa Nissa warm and the nights queen cold. Melisendra the fire priestess and Selyse the dispassionate. Fire and ice. Agony and ecstasy, their voices combining to make a song.
God, Ramsay is sick. At least with Euron he's the type you love to hate and he's a villain you enjoy reading and it's interesting. Ramsay is not like that whatsoever. Bro is so disturbing it's chilling to read any chapters he's in. Idk how to describe the different level of horror Ramsay brings but he for sure evokes feelings of disgust and fear that's different to characters like Euron or Joffrey
I was thinking how much I like the chapter read streams - it's all the good mythical astronomy chats and symbolism stuff, but it is also really nice being read to :)
The name Frey seems to draw inspiration from the goddess Freya, known for fertility. And they are very fertile. Also GRRM's love for comics and Frigga (sometimes called Freyja) appearing in Marvel Comics. Additionally fray can mean to unravel like a threadbare tapestry or cloth. Which essentially means shredded and if Wyman cooked them into pies, they were more than likely shredded like pulled pork. (Their family coming undone) Finally, A common rite for modern Freya worshippers is to bake foods that have some connection to love in one way or another, such as chocolate. Manderly seems to be baking with hate by using human meat instead of ingredients with connection to love.
I had the voice actor's voice for Ramsay during rereads but Tim's version of Ramsay is more chilling, it sounds a little like Roose but more commanding. It gave me shivers. Poor Jeyne and Theon. I dare not imagine how Arya would have handled that. She was terrified of Clegane when he was torturing people and same with the Tickler so I guess she would be scared too and listen to Theon's advices like Jeyne did. Anyway let's put that thought away before having nightmares. The stream was amazing. You guys are a great team. I learn so much from you so thank you for this. The Frey pies part always make me laugh, I know it's terrible but 😂
"Rickon is the key to being liberated". Skaagosi are "cannibals". The houses have squisher references. "being liberated" might really be as you suggest, only available for skinchangers, who can "eat" (read: sacrifice) their bonded animal to be freed? idk but there's somethere there I think.
you could say that in a sense both theon and jeyne have died, in the sense of ego death, having lost their identities due to extreme trauma. so they are now in an underworld of sorts. it is winterfell, but everything has changed, and they have also changed.
2:32:17 RE: Ser Duncan the Tall and reading; Do we suppose he ever is taught the letters and learns to read? Is it even mentioned in the Knight of the Seven Kingdoms trilogy of Egg teaching him to read? Excellent stream per usual guys! Really like this chapter and agree totally; it's loaded with meaty text and great characters to have a voice (Barbrey Dustin, paramount among them)
Maybe the Greenmen learned stonemasonry from their forced mingling with the Squishers! Wasn't it your theory that the Squishers build the mazes in Lorath?
1:40:13 VERY seamless transition. I think Nimble Dick is just an alternate personality at this point. Kinda like Reading Rhaegar 😂 I can’t believe you haven’t been cast in some sort of GOT show yet. Between you and @GirlNettles there’s just so much potential
Is there any way Nissa Nissa is in the WWnet rather than Azor Ahai? When you were talking about Ygritte melting into the pool, just made me wonder. And when you were speaking about the sarcophagus being of Azor Ahai, I wondered well, wouldn't the source of the Others be a Mother? Couldn't it be Nissa Nissa's angry spirit in the sarcophagus? Also, later you spoke about Lightbringer being a stand-in for the WWnet and so I wondered about "Lightbringer's" forging being samesame with like the original dragon bonding, where AA's tryna create some sorta magical hybrid by sacrifing NN and pushing her spirit into the trees.
yeah NN is the wwnet is a sense. That's what Ygritte melting means. I got into this in the Weirwood compendium episodes 6 onward where I talk about Dany and the green grass sea
@@DavidLightbringer Okay! Watching the "Responding to TWOW Angst & Theory QnA" vid atm, but I've only got 30 minutes left in it, so I'll check this one out next. Thanks for the recommendation!
Random thought alert but whenever I hear Styx's Renegade and it's the part in the chorus like "hangman is coming down from the gallows..." i always always hear it as "mannis" as in Stannis the mannis and now Stannis and Renegade by Styx are inexorably linked in my mind
so, man, I had to bail on this stream. I’ve read these books 8 times now, but for some reason I couldn’t listen to the Reek and fArya voices without feeling uneasy. my head just isn’t in the right place. It has me kinda bummed. Y’all are the best! can’t wait for the Moat Cailin video.
Another amazing stream! I really like the idea that the wall is built on black stone that is petrified tree, since it really enforced the 79 sentinels, as trees packed with ice. I did have a thought about the black oily stone v. weirwood turning to stone, and that that maybe the two moons controlled the "tides" of two different "streams"...aka one the actual tides which the squishers with their undersea black trees would care about, and one for the greenseeing tides of the weirwoods. If the darker moon was hit by the comet then maybe that wood petrified quicker than it would have usually. I'm extremely excited for the moat cailin video!!!! I kinda hope you explain the name, since cailin means girl, so it's the girl moat. Is it referencing that Nissa Nissa is effectively diking the greensea?
Fantastic ideas! The two moons are, symbolically, an ice moon and a fire moon- the one that exploded. Assuming you're right, I guess the undersea stream would be the ice moon and the weirwood stream the fire moon. Weirwood trees burning seems to be very important.
The same concept of becoming a becoming a werewolf by skinning one, first appears in Martins "In the Lost Lands". And it will be a movie soon. "In the Lost Lands is based on a short story of the same name which Martin published in 1982 as part of DAW Books’ Amazons II anthology. It’s a fantasy story about Gray Alys, a marauding sorceress who could procure the denizens of her fantasy world anything they might wish…for a dangerous price. As the opening line of In the Lost Lands reads, “You can buy anything you might desire from Gray Alys. But it is better not to.”
All the songs Lord Manderly proposes have a double meaning. "The Night that ended" I bet the bride would like that. And then "Brave Dany Flint" a girl in disguise that was raped and murdered. So we can all weap.
I don't know if he is even drunk (does squishers get drunk? Only the gods know how their metabolism works!). I think he is drunk on revenge and human meat!
Another excellent vid, good job LML! Keep em 'comin! With regards to your comment about how a lot of the symbolism seems to suggest two wives for AA, could it be that NN/Amethyst Empress and the Bloodstone Emperor's tiger wife were in-fact two separate women? Perhaps the latter is the woman who became the Corpse Queen and it is she who resides in whatever structure (probably a castle) is built around the frozen weirwood garden that is probably in the Heart Of Winter. With regards to NN/ Amethyst Empress examining Elden Ring (which GRRM was heavily involved in writing) I suspect provides some clues, at the very end of the game you go inside a tree into a strange plane or realm and find a badly abused and sort of decaying woman who was once a great queen that IMO is similar to the Amethyst Empress from ASOIAF backstory chained up before you have to fight her male half who upon defeat has this black oily creature with draconic symbolism that is decorated in stars and looks (IMO a little phallic) emerge from his body. Returning to ASOIAF I think NN has been trapped inside the WWNet this whole time and is being kept there by the AA hivemind which, along with the once glorious green castle of spring and summer that used to be there (I recall you mentioning something like this in your AA invading WWNet video that has you analysing the chapter where Renly is assassinated by the shadow baby) has been corrupted by the black stone and will probably be represented on the astral plane as a gigantic black 3 headed dragon with scales that look like thousands of black stones, or to put it another way, to restore the balance the heroes need to rescue a maiden locked up inside a tower guarded by an evil dragon in a hellish underworld after crossing through a veil at the far edge of the world. Said defeat IMO is likely to be a prerequisite for Bran to download this hivemind in order to get it out of the WWNet, maybe it's him who has to do this, he wanted to be a knight before he fell off the tower after all, maybe he gets a chance to do it just once. Lmk what you think
Sometimes I forget how intense the story gets. Reading it out loud is so different. I wonder if the audiobooks are super intense. I've reread the Song 3-4 times over the years. Maybe I should listen to it. Much love, y'all both did wonderful work. Tim the Teddy Bear whips out a genuinely scary Ramsey, make sure to finish the video!
@@jenny_of_oldstones3523 Can you elaborate? I don't quite understand. If you're concerned I'm too fresh off the books, WofW has been in the works long enough that I haven't touched a Book in like 3 years. So even after the 2-3 years it took me to read the books 3 times over, it's been a while.
@@jenny_of_oldstones3523 I hope things are going well. I'm also on the strong stuff, so I'm sure you're pain & pleasure combined atm. I get what you mean though. It'll be an awesome experience. Hope you recover well!
I would have thought squatters would be referring to AA and his 12 companions? They were somewhere they weren't meant to be, at least for a while. And at least in my head, they're still there. I think AA is who looks back at Bran when he gazes far north
In "The Skin Trade" ... *spoiler warning * * ... there are also a Lovcraftean horror that need blood sacrifice, called The Skinner. Just like one of Ramsey's boys.
All the talk about names and there meanings got me curious ..so my first name is Ryan (little king) and my last name is frennette (French for ash tree) so ...little king ash tree I think I might be able to do magic now😮
Great streams lately with GWT! IMO, the squisher lore and Nimble Dick character is something that is entertaining and has a lot of developed lore around it and deeper you could go. I get that it may get too much sometimes or people wanting moon-meteor lore may not dig it. Maybe we can get weekly or bi-monthly 1 hour nimble dick streams. It would allow you to get crazy with the character and continue the lore and character you've been building in a confined and stated period of time. I don't know, I'd just hate to lose our on ND, but I get why that may not be a good idea for the channel to go full blown Qanon-squisher
Does the petrification process of *Weirwood trees have any implications to Grayscale. Maybe a Children of the Forest bio-weapon? Since victims go feral.
25:32 Wow…. This is powerful language. When I was about 17 years old, I actually had a man tell me “just sit there and look pretty.” I was like… what?!? And he was being absolutely serious. Looking back- the 90’s were wild. Thinking about the age of consent, gender roles, etc- we have come a long way in the last 30 years. My father tried to fix me up with his friends- I was around 15 and they were probably mid 30’s to early 50’s. My entire value as a human was looking pretty and making a man happy. If I just did a good enough job, I may get a rich man to marry me. BLEH 🤮 Considering that ASOIAF was conceived during the early 90’s, it definitely makes sense as a critique of society at the time.
I still have thoughts on the three horns. I'm working on a theory that builds onto yours about Euron blowing the horn of winter and the horn of Joramond making a reappearance.
I think it's this video you mentioned Dany hearing a wolf howling, signifying Jon - when Tyrion talks with Jon on the Wall about Benjen Stark a wolf howls from the north.
Have you ever thought that the Sansa/Prince Joffrey/Arya scene is a retelling of the Lyanna and Prince Rhaegar seduction? She starts off as Sansa, invited, charmed and happy. She drinks more than she ever has. Invited to recline on pillows in the wheelhouse without windows. She becomes Arya struggling in muddy riding leathers, thrown against the tree and ground. Naked steel. The sword goes into the pond. An interruption, a rock thrown, the Princes head is covered in blood, the horse runs away. After the Prince opens his eyes and they're filled with loathing and contempt....and all the talk of White Cloaks who have to stand by or assist in sexual assaults...Theon almost broke. If Rhaegars true nature came out and Lyanna tried to escape Rhaegar would have ordered Arthur to watch her, retrieve her, guard her, hold her. Rhaegar never would have been able to catch her and subdue her, but Arthur would. Eventually Arthur Dayne would have broke his vows and helped Lyanna..but before that in defiance she may have begged Arthur to impregnate her first so that she wouldn't have Rhaegars baby.
Does anyone have any ideas of where Jeyne Poole was after shit hit the fan in KL? She was removed from the room she shared with Sansa and doesn’t reappear until ADWD. VARYS? LF?
Also as a point about age and agency in medieval society. I feel like many 16 year olds at that time period were more mature by necessity than many kids today. And that's not a far out there theory. I'm sure tons of people either know or remember people from high school that were unusually developed mentally than their peers. I know I did. I was a total child but my brother was way beyond me mentally. It's also worth to keep in mind that irl and in Westeros they don't have even in depth studies of brains or its development. All they have to go by is what nature determines to be the age of maturity which would be things like physical development and periods in the case of women. With Arya, or what they assume is Arya, 12 was actually pretty uncommon if I'm not mistaken. Usually it would be from 16-20 that a girl would be married and have it consummated
I think his few archetype characters really is GRRM using those archetypes as a sort of mnemonic device that helps him keep the characters' thematic backstory organized. Does that make sense?
@@DavidLightbringer To start, I've found that a lot of George's names have been a little on the nose, some more obvious than others, of course, but many easy enough to unveil their symbolism without much research. Couple that with your theory that oily black stone might be from petrified shade of the evening trees makes me wonder if House Blackwood has something to do with that. The House is an older house in Westeros, and is almost canonized to have magical lineage; could it be possible that they brought over black stone with them, or at least the knowledge of how to make or use such stone? I feel this could only work out if the Weirwoods and the Black Bark trees are connected in some way, but you've also pointed out that they are more likely to be linked than not. Just a thought, and was wondering if you had anything to say on the matter. Thanks for all your streams and awesome videos! I enjoy your stuff immensely.
Hold up... Okay, I definitely could be pulling straws at random {wink} but if the priests in Blood Moon are Green Men, and the masons of the Red Keep are Green Men, are the Seven Green well People? 'cause I'm wondering... what "faith" were the Green Men priests of in Blood Moon time?
Wyman Manderly requests 3 songs at the feast and at least two relate to the Nightfort: a song about Danny Flint and the one about The Rat Cook, but the first song he requests is "The Night That Ended" ~ is this related to the Nightfort as well? 🤔
oh certainly, It was the first castle on the wall supposedly and I think it would have predated the wall. That means that whatever war for the dawn happened, if it was attached to a castle, it was either Winterfell or the Nightfort
I do think that the actual Night's Queen is in some kind of helpless situation. All the Night's Queen figures are in some kind of helpless situation in the story, and only then turn the tables on their captor. I think Rohanne Webber's story is telling in this. She is trapped by her father's will and subsequently the Longinch. But she does not wish to portray herself as weak, because it is in the assumption of a position of strength that she knows is her only chance of protecting herself. So Night's Queen made the best of her bad situation, she was taken by the Night's King, and the Night's King ruled the Long Night with her magic, she created the Others, but this is something she is doing under duress. She is a victim who is fighting back by co-opting the agenda of the Night's King. That's my read on things. And when it comes down to the ending of the story, it is probably Night's Queen who will make a pact with the humans to turn the tables on Night's King and save herself.
I would go even further and say that she would make a deal with the last hero, whoever that is going to be in the story, to do this. Again we can go back to the Sworn Sword for this. In the climax, Dunk and Rohanne are on opposite sides of the confrontation. Dunk goes to talk with Rohanne in the middle of the stream, Osgrey asks Dunk to kill her. Rohanne explains her bad situation to Dunk. Dunk is more empathetic to her now. The Longinch declares that after killing Dunk he will marry Rohanne by force, but Dunk makes short work of him, and Rohanne loses the battle because her champion is dead. But the situation turned out to be quite favourable for Rohanne overall. So I think that is what is going to happen in the end. These guys are going to find out that there is an evil queen bee for the Others. So the good guys are going to make plans to make short work of her in order to end the Long Night. But somehow Bran is going to find out that she is in trouble and she is only creating Others to protect herself. So they kill the Night's King instead. After that I want the Night's Queen to get her life back and also CotF to get some land back so that they go on living their lives in harmony with men. But I have no way to support this part of my theory haha.
💯Barbary Dustin had her doubts and has now confirmed them, I'm guessing that's why she insisted that she would be in charge of "Lady Arya" until the wedding. She has probably had a chance to inspect her, more than knowing this is not Arya Stark, she also probably figured out what happened with Jeyne.
u think azor ahai and nissa nissa could be the nights king and corpse queen, 13 years later she shows up as a corpse and he falls in love all over again after thinking he had killed her.
Along the juxtaposing themes of fire and cold, I keep circling back to the laws of physics - there is no such thing as cold, only an absence of heat/energy, that energy cannot be created or destroyed only converted into different forms, and Energy as the source of life. Interesting to see Martin’s interplay of the movement of energy throughout ASOIAF. Such as the death and expected resurrection of Jon, the resurrectionists of Rholor giving their energy when bringing someone back, the consciousnesses, the absorption of the life energy of Craster’s sons into the Others, or energy of beings into and out of the Weirwood Net, etc. How better to resolve the unbalanced energy situation of the Others and the corrupted Weirwood Net than the return of the energy of the Others back to the Weirwood Net. OR this is a 5am thought after watching a few too many Lightbringer videos in one day 😂
i think theon turning on the starks and getting totured and broken by boltons, hes been in a stupor in his mental safe place theon shut off reek took over that was the real teon breaking thru. i still say he deserved to be king after all that he went thru. SHOW theon idk about theon from books idk if he redeems himself the same way
For Theon testimony's value for Arya identity... he is not that wrong: Sansa passed by some of his old father's friends such as Arya... and none recognize them... as Littlefinger pointed out "Peoples see what they want to see " so during the wedding between Ramsey and Jeyne, all the guests would be like "Is that Arya, she didn't look... bah whatever peoples change especially when they are young...", can you imagine you, going at the wedding of the daughter of a friend you saw casually, maybe once every year, and last time you saw that girl, she was a child, you wouldn't be like "Eh! That's woman is far differant from the little girl I remember from seing a few minutes sometimes once or twice every year...she is an impostor!" No chance in hell. Ned yes, Cat, sure, their low age kids (especially girls) no...especially Northmen, they remember strong men not little girls. But for Manderly... yeah you're right, there is no chance he could have been tricked, he knew Arya and a good chance he knew who was Jayne too.
No argument with that, but why would manderly specifically recognize her? I can’t remember them spending time together but I’m probably just forgetting it.
@@swayback7375 Not for the time special together but first, Manderly is very smart (a thinker not a fighter) and have a good memory. But more importantly (which is the cause of what I said), like Theon, Manderly Knows what a Stark looks like, a Karstark too won't have ever mistaken Jeyne for a Stark (they just have to look themselves in a mirror). And as a combined argument, he might have known (at least quicly) Jeyne too, remember than Sansa and her, unlike Arya, used to play their role as good hostess for the visitors of Winterfell and, his father, was quiet unknown for foreigners of Winterfell it's true, but for the regular and familiar visitors of the castle, they would know the Vayon Pool, steward of Winterfell.
@@charlesjermyn5001 good explanation. Sounds spot on to me! The more I reread it and read into it tge more I find myself liking him, his bluff persona kinda rubbed me wrong until I figured out that he’s loyal as he says and smarter than he seems…
@@swayback7375 Exactly. Ramsey... could have been bluff... but mostly he doesn't care who he weds (he doesn't really know the Starks). Freys don't know, don't care. Roose no chance in hell he could be trick, Manderly no chance in hell.... Lady Dustin (especially her) no chance in hell. And remember, these two (and many others) are important and visit Winterfell multiple time and what Ned (and all serviable lords really) do when they have guests? They invite them to eat. And remember in the very begining, who eat with Ned and his guests... all his children. Never Manderly or anybody really would have forgotten "Underfeat" Arya, dressing as a boy and messing up.
sorry im commenting like crazy on this one, but the theon wanna get away from here sudden realization well ive been locked up a few times or more, n alot of times i dont remember how or what i did to get myself there caus i was pretty bad off, but i can relate i really think it was closer to never having been in jail, and waking up in jail with a massive hangover thinking hold up how did i get here once your sober enough to realize you probably just screwed the rest of your life up, moreso than the snickers moment. i can see that too.
It is like the Boltons have killed and skinned Winterfell, and now they are wearing the skin of the Starks, to steal their power!
Two hearts that beat as one, agony and ecstasy. Visenya the cold hearted warrior and Rhaenys the warm. Nissa Nissa warm and the nights queen cold. Melisendra the fire priestess and Selyse the dispassionate.
Fire and ice. Agony and ecstasy, their voices combining to make a song.
I think all these ideas are related yeah
@@DavidLightbringer also rhaegar with elia of dorne🔥 and lyanna❄️
God, Ramsay is sick. At least with Euron he's the type you love to hate and he's a villain you enjoy reading and it's interesting. Ramsay is not like that whatsoever. Bro is so disturbing it's chilling to read any chapters he's in. Idk how to describe the different level of horror Ramsay brings but he for sure evokes feelings of disgust and fear that's different to characters like Euron or Joffrey
The stream Noone saw coming..Wyman is the best! Thank yall for the stream. Much appreciated brothers.
Damn, Tim really stepped up his mythical astrology
I was thinking how much I like the chapter read streams - it's all the good mythical astronomy chats and symbolism stuff, but it is also really nice being read to :)
23:56 HOLY CRAP. Tim called it!! He predicted the outcome of the villains tourney!!
I was shocked how much David was downplaying Euron lol he wanted Tywin over him. Euron is the ASOIAF anti christ
The name Frey seems to draw inspiration from the goddess Freya, known for fertility. And they are very fertile. Also GRRM's love for comics and Frigga (sometimes called Freyja) appearing in Marvel Comics.
Additionally fray can mean to unravel like a threadbare tapestry or cloth. Which essentially means shredded and if Wyman cooked them into pies, they were more than likely shredded like pulled pork. (Their family coming undone)
Finally, A common rite for modern Freya worshippers is to bake foods that have some connection to love in one way or another, such as chocolate. Manderly seems to be baking with hate by using human meat instead of ingredients with connection to love.
definitely a Freya influence here, and I like the observation about the pies
I just added a little more.
every time he rips the bong he comes back "hold on i just had a thought" i love it!
Intriguing parallels of Jeyne Poole taking the persona of Arya while Arya is taking on other personas as well like the Boltons taking on skins.
I had the voice actor's voice for Ramsay during rereads but Tim's version of Ramsay is more chilling, it sounds a little like Roose but more commanding. It gave me shivers. Poor Jeyne and Theon. I dare not imagine how Arya would have handled that. She was terrified of Clegane when he was torturing people and same with the Tickler so I guess she would be scared too and listen to Theon's advices like Jeyne did. Anyway let's put that thought away before having nightmares. The stream was amazing. You guys are a great team. I learn so much from you so thank you for this. The Frey pies part always make me laugh, I know it's terrible but 😂
we need to do a Roose Ramsay dialog
"Rickon is the key to being liberated". Skaagosi are "cannibals". The houses have squisher references. "being liberated" might really be as you suggest, only available for skinchangers, who can "eat" (read: sacrifice) their bonded animal to be freed? idk but there's somethere there I think.
you could say that in a sense both theon and jeyne have died, in the sense of ego death, having lost their identities due to extreme trauma. so they are now in an underworld of sorts. it is winterfell, but everything has changed, and they have also changed.
Thank you for these! Love the read-throughs. Poor Jane.
Great handling of such a gut wrenching chapter, but fantastic job by the both of you on the reread. Can't wait for the moat cailin video on tuesday!
Amazing stream. Great depth and sensitivity with this Chapter. Nice work guys.
Nothing like a Frey pie with a side of Jojen paste… mmm mmm mmm!
Thank you guys! Respectfully handled!
Argh missed this live, the chat was 🔥🔥🔥. Dave, Tim you've done it again an'other amazing stream
2:32:17 RE: Ser Duncan the Tall and reading; Do we suppose he ever is taught the letters and learns to read? Is it even mentioned in the Knight of the Seven Kingdoms trilogy of Egg teaching him to read?
Excellent stream per usual guys! Really like this chapter and agree totally; it's loaded with meaty text and great characters to have a voice (Barbrey Dustin, paramount among them)
I'll be watching the rewatch as I was at my son's place I look forward to it
How you use those emojis
Uuuuugh,Jeyne thinking,"I'll never call anyone horse face again!!!Your revenge power is too powerful,Arya!!!Turn it off!!!"
Maybe the Greenmen learned stonemasonry from their forced mingling with the Squishers! Wasn't it your theory that the Squishers build the mazes in Lorath?
Great stream ty GWT and LML!
1:40:13 VERY seamless transition. I think Nimble Dick is just an alternate personality at this point. Kinda like Reading Rhaegar 😂 I can’t believe you haven’t been cast in some sort of GOT show yet. Between you and @GirlNettles there’s just so much potential
Lady Alayne is clearly an eastereggification of Lady Elaine from Mr. Rogers Neighborhood. Does no one remember the Land Of Make-Believe?
I always think of Lady Elaine when we read Alayne chapters yeah
The GOAT Moat Cailin vid is coming like winter 🎉
Your content is always fire! Also love Tim!
Every time they mention "Two Hearts That Beat as One" in the books I can't help but hear the chorus to "Two of Hearts" by Stacy Q 😂
I think of the U2 song “Two Hearts 💕 Beat as One”!
Great to see the two of you rocking it together again!
Stoked YT is recommending these to me lately!!
haha that makes two of us
Brilliant as always! Thanks!
It is like the hole moist godswood is under water. A watery hall. Watery hell.
High quality awesomness as always Good Sers! 🤘🐺🔥🌱💨💚
Is there any way Nissa Nissa is in the WWnet rather than Azor Ahai?
When you were talking about Ygritte melting into the pool, just made me wonder. And when you were speaking about the sarcophagus being of Azor Ahai, I wondered well, wouldn't the source of the Others be a Mother? Couldn't it be Nissa Nissa's angry spirit in the sarcophagus?
Also, later you spoke about Lightbringer being a stand-in for the WWnet and so I wondered about "Lightbringer's" forging being samesame with like the original dragon bonding, where AA's tryna create some sorta magical hybrid by sacrifing NN and pushing her spirit into the trees.
yeah NN is the wwnet is a sense. That's what Ygritte melting means. I got into this in the Weirwood compendium episodes 6 onward where I talk about Dany and the green grass sea
@@DavidLightbringer Okay! Watching the "Responding to TWOW Angst & Theory QnA" vid atm, but I've only got 30 minutes left in it, so I'll check this one out next. Thanks for the recommendation!
Thank you 🙏🏻 LML & GreyWasteTim for Teaming again to share an Awesome video!🙂Happy new Year to both of You Guys!🙋🏼♀️🇨🇦👌🏻👌🏻🫶🏻🫶🏻
Just reread this chapter. It’s so full of symbolism and intrigue. Manderly is great comic relief too. I just love Dance.
Random thought alert but whenever I hear Styx's Renegade and it's the part in the chorus like "hangman is coming down from the gallows..." i always always hear it as "mannis" as in Stannis the mannis and now Stannis and Renegade by Styx are inexorably linked in my mind
so, man, I had to bail on this stream. I’ve read these books 8 times now, but for some reason I couldn’t listen to the Reek and fArya voices without feeling uneasy. my head just isn’t in the right place. It has me kinda bummed.
Y’all are the best! can’t wait for the Moat Cailin video.
naw we didn't even read the whole scene, it was too messed up. I get it
Another amazing stream! I really like the idea that the wall is built on black stone that is petrified tree, since it really enforced the 79 sentinels, as trees packed with ice. I did have a thought about the black oily stone v. weirwood turning to stone, and that that maybe the two moons controlled the "tides" of two different "streams"...aka one the actual tides which the squishers with their undersea black trees would care about, and one for the greenseeing tides of the weirwoods. If the darker moon was hit by the comet then maybe that wood petrified quicker than it would have usually. I'm extremely excited for the moat cailin video!!!! I kinda hope you explain the name, since cailin means girl, so it's the girl moat. Is it referencing that Nissa Nissa is effectively diking the greensea?
Fantastic ideas! The two moons are, symbolically, an ice moon and a fire moon- the one that exploded. Assuming you're right, I guess the undersea stream would be the ice moon and the weirwood stream the fire moon. Weirwood trees burning seems to be very important.
Wish I had some pie while listening to this chapter lol
The same concept of becoming a becoming a werewolf by skinning one, first appears in Martins "In the Lost Lands". And it will be a movie soon.
"In the Lost Lands is based on a short story of the same name which Martin published in 1982 as part of DAW Books’ Amazons II anthology. It’s a fantasy story about Gray Alys, a marauding sorceress who could procure the denizens of her fantasy world anything they might wish…for a dangerous price. As the opening line of In the Lost Lands reads, “You can buy anything you might desire from Gray Alys. But it is better not to.”
oh okay that's dope. I definitely think we have the Boltons figured out here
"Don't pile on I'm sensitive about it" half way through a Bong rip and I laugh cough ejected it across my shed 😅
I need the timestamp!!!! 😂
All the songs Lord Manderly proposes have a double meaning. "The Night that ended" I bet the bride would like that. And then "Brave Dany Flint" a girl in disguise that was raped and murdered. So we can all weap.
I don't know if he is even drunk (does squishers get drunk? Only the gods know how their metabolism works!). I think he is drunk on revenge and human meat!
Baelish Character stream when? :O
Can’t wait for the rewatch since I missed a lot of it live!
Another excellent vid, good job LML! Keep em 'comin!
With regards to your comment about how a lot of the symbolism seems to suggest two wives for AA, could it be that NN/Amethyst Empress and the Bloodstone Emperor's tiger wife were in-fact two separate women?
Perhaps the latter is the woman who became the Corpse Queen and it is she who resides in whatever structure (probably a castle) is built around the frozen weirwood garden that is probably in the Heart Of Winter.
With regards to NN/ Amethyst Empress examining Elden Ring (which GRRM was heavily involved in writing) I suspect provides some clues, at the very end of the game you go inside a tree into a strange plane or realm and find a badly abused and sort of decaying woman who was once a great queen that IMO is similar to the Amethyst Empress from ASOIAF backstory chained up before you have to fight her male half who upon defeat has this black oily creature with draconic symbolism that is decorated in stars and looks (IMO a little phallic) emerge from his body.
Returning to ASOIAF I think NN has been trapped inside the WWNet this whole time and is being kept there by the AA hivemind which, along with the once glorious green castle of spring and summer that used to be there (I recall you mentioning something like this in your AA invading WWNet video that has you analysing the chapter where Renly is assassinated by the shadow baby) has been corrupted by the black stone and will probably be represented on the astral plane as a gigantic black 3 headed dragon with scales that look like thousands of black stones, or to put it another way, to restore the balance the heroes need to rescue a maiden locked up inside a tower guarded by an evil dragon in a hellish underworld after crossing through a veil at the far edge of the world.
Said defeat IMO is likely to be a prerequisite for Bran to download this hivemind in order to get it out of the WWNet, maybe it's him who has to do this, he wanted to be a knight before he fell off the tower after all, maybe he gets a chance to do it just once.
Lmk what you think
another amazing stream!
Sometimes I forget how intense the story gets. Reading it out loud is so different. I wonder if the audiobooks are super intense. I've reread the Song 3-4 times over the years. Maybe I should listen to it. Much love, y'all both did wonderful work. Tim the Teddy Bear whips out a genuinely scary Ramsey, make sure to finish the video!
Yes! Audiobook is super!
@@jenny_of_oldstones3523 Can you elaborate? I don't quite understand. If you're concerned I'm too fresh off the books, WofW has been in the works long enough that I haven't touched a Book in like 3 years. So even after the 2-3 years it took me to read the books 3 times over, it's been a while.
@@jenny_of_oldstones3523 I hope things are going well. I'm also on the strong stuff, so I'm sure you're pain & pleasure combined atm. I get what you mean though. It'll be an awesome experience. Hope you recover well!
superb content... thank you LML and GWT.
David, I loved your reference to Princess Bride. A big influence on my life and I’d love to listen to your full opinion on the movie one day
It's an ice day for a wight wedding.
❤🔥❤🔥❤🔥❤🔥❤🔥 ty GWT and LML!
Wow you neglected to read the best part of my favorite chapter in all the books. Thanks David.
really hope this is sarcasm
Squatters could mean Children of the Forest. They are also smallfolk, which could implie the same thing.
I would have thought squatters would be referring to AA and his 12 companions? They were somewhere they weren't meant to be, at least for a while. And at least in my head, they're still there. I think AA is who looks back at Bran when he gazes far north
Smallfolk is a great catch - of course its a CoF reference!
Yum, Frey pie 🤤
In "The Skin Trade" ...
*spoiler warning
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*
... there are also a Lovcraftean horror that need blood sacrifice, called The Skinner. Just like one of Ramsey's boys.
All the talk about names and there meanings got me curious ..so my first name is Ryan (little king) and my last name is frennette (French for ash tree) so ...little king ash tree I think I might be able to do magic now😮
little weirwood king!
@@DavidLightbringer so basically I'm bran
Great streams lately with GWT!
IMO, the squisher lore and Nimble Dick character is something that is entertaining and has a lot of developed lore around it and deeper you could go. I get that it may get too much sometimes or people wanting moon-meteor lore may not dig it.
Maybe we can get weekly or bi-monthly 1 hour nimble dick streams. It would allow you to get crazy with the character and continue the lore and character you've been building in a confined and stated period of time.
I don't know, I'd just hate to lose our on ND, but I get why that may not be a good idea for the channel to go full blown Qanon-squisher
I did everything right and they en-wighted me!
Does the petrification process of *Weirwood trees have any implications to Grayscale. Maybe a Children of the Forest bio-weapon? Since victims go feral.
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Wow…. This is powerful language.
When I was about 17 years old, I actually had a man tell me “just sit there and look pretty.” I was like… what?!? And he was being absolutely serious.
Looking back- the 90’s were wild. Thinking about the age of consent, gender roles, etc- we have come a long way in the last 30 years. My father tried to fix me up with his friends- I was around 15 and they were probably mid 30’s to early 50’s. My entire value as a human was looking pretty and making a man happy. If I just did a good enough job, I may get a rich man to marry me. BLEH 🤮
Considering that ASOIAF was conceived during the early 90’s, it definitely makes sense as a critique of society at the time.
Awesome stream! Last night bro!
I still have thoughts on the three horns. I'm working on a theory that builds onto yours about Euron blowing the horn of winter and the horn of Joramond making a reappearance.
I think it's this video you mentioned Dany hearing a wolf howling, signifying Jon - when Tyrion talks with Jon on the Wall about Benjen Stark a wolf howls from the north.
Thank you 😊🎉
Have you ever thought that the Sansa/Prince Joffrey/Arya scene is a retelling of the Lyanna and Prince Rhaegar seduction? She starts off as Sansa, invited, charmed and happy. She drinks more than she ever has. Invited to recline on pillows in the wheelhouse without windows. She becomes Arya struggling in muddy riding leathers, thrown against the tree and ground. Naked steel. The sword goes into the pond. An interruption, a rock thrown, the Princes head is covered in blood, the horse runs away. After the Prince opens his eyes and they're filled with loathing and contempt....and all the talk of White Cloaks who have to stand by or assist in sexual assaults...Theon almost broke. If Rhaegars true nature came out and Lyanna tried to escape Rhaegar would have ordered Arthur to watch her, retrieve her, guard her, hold her. Rhaegar never would have been able to catch her and subdue her, but Arthur would. Eventually Arthur Dayne would have broke his vows and helped Lyanna..but before that in defiance she may have begged Arthur to impregnate her first so that she wouldn't have Rhaegars baby.
Re-listening the next day always makes my Monday commute easier, thanks for more great content gents 🤙🏼
Good stream!
Does anyone have any ideas of where Jeyne Poole was after shit hit the fan in KL? She was removed from the room she shared with Sansa and doesn’t reappear until ADWD. VARYS? LF?
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Also as a point about age and agency in medieval society. I feel like many 16 year olds at that time period were more mature by necessity than many kids today. And that's not a far out there theory. I'm sure tons of people either know or remember people from high school that were unusually developed mentally than their peers. I know I did. I was a total child but my brother was way beyond me mentally. It's also worth to keep in mind that irl and in Westeros they don't have even in depth studies of brains or its development. All they have to go by is what nature determines to be the age of maturity which would be things like physical development and periods in the case of women. With Arya, or what they assume is Arya, 12 was actually pretty uncommon if I'm not mistaken. Usually it would be from 16-20 that a girl would be married and have it consummated
I think his few archetype characters really is GRRM using those archetypes as a sort of mnemonic device that helps him keep the characters' thematic backstory organized. Does that make sense?
it does work that way yes
nissa nissa was a grenseer from leng?
have you thought of the implications of a jet stone to family blackwood?
what do you mean
@@DavidLightbringer To start, I've found that a lot of George's names have been a little on the nose, some more obvious than others, of course, but many easy enough to unveil their symbolism without much research. Couple that with your theory that oily black stone might be from petrified shade of the evening trees makes me wonder if House Blackwood has something to do with that. The House is an older house in Westeros, and is almost canonized to have magical lineage; could it be possible that they brought over black stone with them, or at least the knowledge of how to make or use such stone? I feel this could only work out if the Weirwoods and the Black Bark trees are connected in some way, but you've also pointed out that they are more likely to be linked than not. Just a thought, and was wondering if you had anything to say on the matter. Thanks for all your streams and awesome videos! I enjoy your stuff immensely.
Hold up... Okay, I definitely could be pulling straws at random {wink} but if the priests in Blood Moon are Green Men, and the masons of the Red Keep are Green Men, are the Seven Green well People? 'cause I'm wondering... what "faith" were the Green Men priests of in Blood Moon time?
We don’t want any dark colors here. Now for the black outline.
Those wolfskins on the floor could be actual Stark direwolf skins from back in the days, or maybe they just symbolise that.
definitely a powerful symbol
Wyman Manderly requests 3 songs at the feast and at least two relate to the Nightfort: a song about Danny Flint and the one about The Rat Cook, but the first song he requests is "The Night That Ended" ~ is this related to the Nightfort as well? 🤔
oh certainly, It was the first castle on the wall supposedly and I think it would have predated the wall. That means that whatever war for the dawn happened, if it was attached to a castle, it was either Winterfell or the Nightfort
The wall is frozen weirwood tree grove with others crucified to the trees .
700 upvotes is kinda embarassing, fellow watchers! Holla at your boys for all the good stuff they bring ❤️
Weddings are the scariest place in westeros. Red wedding, purple wedding, rat cook wedding. Why are they even getting married at this point?
I do think that the actual Night's Queen is in some kind of helpless situation. All the Night's Queen figures are in some kind of helpless situation in the story, and only then turn the tables on their captor. I think Rohanne Webber's story is telling in this. She is trapped by her father's will and subsequently the Longinch. But she does not wish to portray herself as weak, because it is in the assumption of a position of strength that she knows is her only chance of protecting herself. So Night's Queen made the best of her bad situation, she was taken by the Night's King, and the Night's King ruled the Long Night with her magic, she created the Others, but this is something she is doing under duress. She is a victim who is fighting back by co-opting the agenda of the Night's King. That's my read on things. And when it comes down to the ending of the story, it is probably Night's Queen who will make a pact with the humans to turn the tables on Night's King and save herself.
I would go even further and say that she would make a deal with the last hero, whoever that is going to be in the story, to do this. Again we can go back to the Sworn Sword for this. In the climax, Dunk and Rohanne are on opposite sides of the confrontation. Dunk goes to talk with Rohanne in the middle of the stream, Osgrey asks Dunk to kill her. Rohanne explains her bad situation to Dunk. Dunk is more empathetic to her now. The Longinch declares that after killing Dunk he will marry Rohanne by force, but Dunk makes short work of him, and Rohanne loses the battle because her champion is dead. But the situation turned out to be quite favourable for Rohanne overall.
So I think that is what is going to happen in the end. These guys are going to find out that there is an evil queen bee for the Others. So the good guys are going to make plans to make short work of her in order to end the Long Night. But somehow Bran is going to find out that she is in trouble and she is only creating Others to protect herself. So they kill the Night's King instead.
After that I want the Night's Queen to get her life back and also CotF to get some land back so that they go on living their lives in harmony with men. But I have no way to support this part of my theory haha.
in the german translation of LotR, the rohirim refer to minas tirith as "mundburg"
💯Barbary Dustin had her doubts and has now confirmed them, I'm guessing that's why she insisted that she would be in charge of "Lady Arya" until the wedding. She has probably had a chance to inspect her, more than knowing this is not Arya Stark, she also probably figured out what happened with Jeyne.
u think azor ahai and nissa nissa could be the nights king and corpse queen, 13 years later she shows up as a corpse and he falls in love all over again after thinking he had killed her.
Please bring Tim more often!
Along the juxtaposing themes of fire and cold, I keep circling back to the laws of physics - there is no such thing as cold, only an absence of heat/energy, that energy cannot be created or destroyed only converted into different forms, and Energy as the source of life. Interesting to see Martin’s interplay of the movement of energy throughout ASOIAF. Such as the death and expected resurrection of Jon, the resurrectionists of Rholor giving their energy when bringing someone back, the consciousnesses, the absorption of the life energy of Craster’s sons into the Others, or energy of beings into and out of the Weirwood Net, etc. How better to resolve the unbalanced energy situation of the Others and the corrupted Weirwood Net than the return of the energy of the Others back to the Weirwood Net. OR this is a 5am thought after watching a few too many Lightbringer videos in one day 😂
The "damned" is a double entendre.
“Ramsay did nothing wrong. He’s only this way because he has a rough childhood.”
- A huge portion of ASOIAF fanbase, unironically
comment.
i think theon turning on the starks and getting totured and broken by boltons, hes been in a stupor in his mental safe place theon shut off reek took over that was the real teon breaking thru. i still say he deserved to be king after all that he went thru. SHOW theon idk about theon from books idk if he redeems himself the same way
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For Theon testimony's value for Arya identity... he is not that wrong: Sansa passed by some of his old father's friends such as Arya... and none recognize them... as Littlefinger pointed out "Peoples see what they want to see " so during the wedding between Ramsey and Jeyne, all the guests would be like "Is that Arya, she didn't look... bah whatever peoples change especially when they are young...", can you imagine you, going at the wedding of the daughter of a friend you saw casually, maybe once every year, and last time you saw that girl, she was a child, you wouldn't be like "Eh! That's woman is far differant from the little girl I remember from seing a few minutes sometimes once or twice every year...she is an impostor!" No chance in hell. Ned yes, Cat, sure, their low age kids (especially girls) no...especially Northmen, they remember strong men not little girls. But for Manderly... yeah you're right, there is no chance he could have been tricked, he knew Arya and a good chance he knew who was Jayne too.
No argument with that, but why would manderly specifically recognize her?
I can’t remember them spending time together but I’m probably just forgetting it.
@@swayback7375 Not for the time special together but first, Manderly is very smart (a thinker not a fighter) and have a good memory. But more importantly (which is the cause of what I said), like Theon, Manderly Knows what a Stark looks like, a Karstark too won't have ever mistaken Jeyne for a Stark (they just have to look themselves in a mirror). And as a combined argument, he might have known (at least quicly) Jeyne too, remember than Sansa and her, unlike Arya, used to play their role as good hostess for the visitors of Winterfell and, his father, was quiet unknown for foreigners of Winterfell it's true, but for the regular and familiar visitors of the castle, they would know the Vayon Pool, steward of Winterfell.
@@charlesjermyn5001 good explanation. Sounds spot on to me!
The more I reread it and read into it tge more I find myself liking him, his bluff persona kinda rubbed me wrong until I figured out that he’s loyal as he says and smarter than he seems…
@@swayback7375 Exactly. Ramsey... could have been bluff... but mostly he doesn't care who he weds (he doesn't really know the Starks). Freys don't know, don't care. Roose no chance in hell he could be trick, Manderly no chance in hell.... Lady Dustin (especially her) no chance in hell. And remember, these two (and many others) are important and visit Winterfell multiple time and what Ned (and all serviable lords really) do when they have guests? They invite them to eat. And remember in the very begining, who eat with Ned and his guests... all his children. Never Manderly or anybody really would have forgotten "Underfeat" Arya, dressing as a boy and messing up.
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sorry im commenting like crazy on this one, but the theon wanna get away from here sudden realization well ive been locked up a few times or more, n alot of times i dont remember how or what i did to get myself there caus i was pretty bad off, but i can relate i really think it was closer to never having been in jail, and waking up in jail with a massive hangover thinking hold up how did i get here once your sober enough to realize you probably just screwed the rest of your life up, moreso than the snickers moment. i can see that too.
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