GPU Radiation Testing & Signal Engineering | MSI Lab Tour
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 21 ส.ค. 2024
- This tour of a video card validation lab shows how MSI checks for EMI, radiation, signal integrity, and acoustics of its components.
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Learning about how video cards and motherboards are made brings us to MSI's validation lab, where we see the pre-production steps in testing to ensure CE or FCC compliance (and compliance with other ISO standards). This also includes optimizing circuit traces to reduce EMI (electromagnetic interference), crosstalk, and signal degradation. The signal analysis labs and EMI labs are accompanied by a semi-anechoic chamber for more accurate acoustic testing than could be done in a traditional room, equipped with ten microphones for various angles of measurement.
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Host: Steve Burke
Video: Andrew Coleman
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Gamers Nexus damn Twain good on you mate
Woah! I love this. A rare look into the industry and how they develop products. Awesome. Thanks so much GN Staff! Proud to be a Patreon backer!
Thank you! Patreon and store supporters make it possible for us to do these kinds of tours. We have a lot more coming for this week!
This is so freaking interesting, did not even come to mind that hardware vendors and distributors had to test for EMI radiation or any other tests.
In some countries EMI is considered stright up signal broudcast, radio regulation body may knock in there door is they dont do that.
Some may just send it out to another company to check, but AFAIK (at least here in UK/EU) most electronics needs to be tested.
Same, was just going to comment that I had no idea that this type of testing was even a thing. Very cool.
we do this kind of testing daily for all avionics and other airborne equipment.
@Shadowriver Woa, you are a Gamers Nexus community member as well, nice ! Thanks for all your help and support with Unreal Engine !
5:55 it looks like Steve is standing in front of a green screen
I noticed the same thing
Same at 10:18
Nu
I thought it was just me
thats because the color is the same and its 2d image so its hard for our brain to get depth preception. you can see his shadow on the yellow blocks
I was just going to bed, but new GN video means I gotta stay up and watch.
Great content, this is what tech journalism should be, keep it up 👍
First off I would like to correct you on the statement about third party checking for CE certification.
The CE certification does not require third party tests since the CE mark is more stating that the manufacturer considers the product to live up to the EU standards covered by the CE standard. Though the FCC in the US does require products to be tested by an authorized third party. Though, since MSI probably wishes to sell their products in more then just the EU, then third party testing is still required.
Next thing with the EMC test chamber, the gray/black square pattern on the wall is ferrite tiles for anyone curious. These are usually used in conjunction with a faraday cage to attenuate electromagnetic interference. Since just a faraday cage doesn't really do much against the magnetic part of the interference. (The net in the ceiling is in case one of these tiles falls off in case of an earthquake or similar.)
Also, the "digital phosphor Oscilloscope" is just Tektronix term for intensity graded wave forms. Though, it isn't really any better then other intensity grading systems, and the whole oscilloscope industry has so far not understood the difference between fading to background color, and fading the transparency of the trace.
And the eye diagram is technically nothing more then measuring the clock jitter in conjunction with rise and fall time of a given signal in comparison to a reference clock source. If the eye "closes" vertically, then one's rise and fall times are inadequate, and if the eye "closes" horizontally, then the clock stability is poor. It can also indicate runt pulses, as in the signal not making it all the way over in time. This would result in lines going through the eye of the diagram. (Though not to be confused with a multi level eye diagram. Not that this is common for digital systems.)
And if the EMC test chamber only costed 20-30 grand, then that is cheap. Since just the ferrite tiles on the walls floor and ceiling can cost over 40 grand alone for a room of that size. (Calculated based on a 5 by 5 by 4 meter room, then it is down to what type of tile one wants after that.)
For some reason once you got in the sound dampening room my dogs were super interested in the video.
All this testing and my MSI GPU still has terrible coil whine
The difference is they know about the whine ;)
Given that your PSU could be responsible for electronical frequencies going into human audible range, it's not MSI's fault that it has coil whine.
You do not receive the CE badge! The certified lab only tells you that the product is CE compliant.
You can put CE on any product but if it is found out that your product is not compliant with CE, then you are fined big money
Interesting, I didn't know that! Looking into it, apparently just specific products like helmets, chainsaws, elevators etc. need to be tested by an authorized third party.
it makes sense, if you're saying that something is compliant and it isn't, so you're making a fraud. But if you're saying that it is compliant without testing and de facto it is, no problem here
Yeah, that is right. The manufacturer just says the product is CE compliant, there is no testing from any independent governmental entity. It basically is worth nothing at all and there are tons of products that fail to comply CE standards when testet by a third party.
11:42 - super high end professional $25K equipment, and the GUI uses maximized Internet Explorer, lol
Also default Win7 screensaver at 13:04
Those scopes go for $60k pre-owned on ebay right now...
Among the aluminium forming lines which contains multiple robots, hydraulic press and laser sensors, we have a computer with Win 7 entreprise which runs production management program on an internet explorer. This is actually not uncommon, although I wonder sometimes what wizards made internet explorer based shopfloor system read numbers from a PLS continuously for days and days.
you know that shit costs as much as a luxury car when you every website has you ask for the price rather than listing it lol
In research and development you need things that just work. Also they are calibrated for error correction or interference. Better, newer or more expensive doesn't mean always better.
That doesn't look like a running program to me. It's an .MHT file, according to the address bar, which is a webpage archive, to save everything into one file. Many programs create reports in a markup language, such as HTML, which will open in your default browser, or whatever default you have set for that particular file extension.
Tech Jesus Steve's prowess to irradiate GPUs when applying thermal paste
I do not understand. Where is the RGB Light test room?
Every room is RGB light test room if you're rich enough.
Finally I watched this video! I just love labs, it is impressive how they translate all calculations and put them to test in with looks complicated, but somehow more accessible way.
Great job man!
The sound quality in the semi anechoic chamber was amazing. Very clear.
Anechoic chambers always look amazing. It always puzzles me that square/rectangular floor plans are used in them them though, since the orthogonal corners introduce well known acoustic issues, as shown in 7:15. An hexagonal floor plan would be more beneficial, although walls of course would still hit floor and ceilings at 90 degrees. Slanted ceilings would be better. In fact, ideally anechoic chambers should be spherical, or let's say icosahedrons or dodecahedrons at least, something along those lines. A matter of building costs of course, but even pro full anechoic chambers seem to be in normal rectangular shaped rooms, which is quite not ideal for the purposes
I'd venture that the designers of those rooms know a bit more about it than you. Something they're probably taking into account that you're not giving enough credence to is cost per performance. Why build a spherical room for magnitudes more cost when the sound floor is already low enough?
Damn that’s some deep tech bro I’ve learn so much
The accepted standard way to build Acoustic anechoic chambers (this is a good example of a semi-anechoic acoustic chamber, because it has a solid floor) uses both reflection (bouncing up and down in the wedge and being absorbed by / energizing the air) and absorption (into the foam wedge and absorbed by / energizing the foam)
I thought you were on a green screen for the accoustic room at first but then I saw the shadows moving
Slight correction for you, Steve. In most cases, you don't apply for certification to receive the CE mark. The CE mark can be applied to products with "minimal risk" without any sort of verification process.
The mark only says that you have proper documentation of various safety testing, even if you don't. Where this self-certification can backfire is when the regulating body requires documentation.
For example, if someone gets hurt because of your product, you have 6 days to provide all documentation relevant to the product's CE certification - so you'll want to have that documentation prepared beforehand.
I had to refresh a little bit of the knowledge here from Wikipedia (so I can't tell you what they mean by "minimal risk") but I've come to know this through my line of work.
To anybody wondering, these scopes and testing instruments aren't that super expensive. A lot of expenses are actually in software running them, i.e. all per-compliance and protocol testing / validation packages. They are not that complex, but because market is so small, they necessarily cost a lot. You can buy same scope without this software and it will be probably 1/3 of the price!
Also, for really high end scopes, you should look into wireless communications, radar, etc setups. Scopes and software can go into 1M$ range, because of how advanced they are.
Good to see MSI still being welcoming to you after all the mis-steps you've called them out for in the past. Great job GN!
Man that’s awesome they go to such lengths to prevent themselves from sending something out to the actual Certification Center and having problems, wasting time, etc. I didn’t think radiation testing was a big deal for anything other than wifi network adapters. The sound testing chamber is also awesome, and that one feels more intuitive to me because I immediately see the utility for fans on PSU, GPU, and plain old case fans or heatsink fans. Signal analysis also makes sense immediately for PSUs and all ports/sockets on basically everything. Amazing science.
Hey, I have exam tomorrow! But I had to watch the video. I hope to work with such equipment one day.
A lot of this took me back to my days doing my Physics degree (I even managed to get locked into my University's Anechoic Chamber - shouting 'help!' doesn't work when nobody actually knows what the panic alarm going off in the corridor is actually for)
Any Gamers Nexus video that isn't more than 5 hours long isn't a true Gamers Nexus video.
@Lost Khajiit Lol, yea his videos are 2 weeks long sometimes.
It's great that you have introduced a laboratory for electromagnetic compatibility testing of each electronic component (PCs, ...). I've been working for 1 year in such a lab. Fascinating, what standards should be checked.
as someone who got their PC building feet wet on dumpster salvaged 486 66MHz machines it is nothing short of a man made miracle that modern CPU's GPU's and motherboards work as well as they do.......
Holy hell, this is some quality content
@Gamers Nexus Thank you so much for the shot of the lab door opening and other small details. I do some work in EMI/EMP shielding, and having a look at how a big player like msi has done their shielding is super interesting. :)
I don't know why but at 6:10 it looks a lot like Steve's in front of a green screen :p
Yeah, that's what I thought
Nu
He forgot to enable RTX
he probably didn't record in that room
this room does the dampenings so well, it even fucks with photons :')
Great to see how it’s done behind the seems . Please keep it up . Love finding out how things work too
I thought it was gonna be testing resistance to radiation not checking for emissions, but I guess the latter actually makes more sense xD
Most modern electronics aren't super resistant to radiation, for that matter even old school vacuum tubes can have issues. When pioneer 10 made the first ever flyby of Jupiter NASA thought at one point they'd lost the probe to the unexpectedly high radiation values. At their peak near Io they're sufficient to give you a fatal dose in less than 2 minutes. To put that into perspective the radiation environment inside a functioning nuclear reactor is only about 40% more intense.
Basically all electronics in most developed countries need Rf emissions testing. EU and a few others require immunity as well.
It's not just cards
same
Really nice video. These manufacturer tours are always interesting.
Wow this series of videos is awesome Steve and Crew, Really interesting and informative!
Steve's hair made me believe that he's in greenscreen mode when standing side by side with the yellow foams.
Great video. I'm learning about digital signals and filtering in school right now, so it's cool to see how some of that stuff is applied in the real world.
Love your work! Quick question: when’s askGN this month?
Probably when we're back from Asia! Maybe the last 1-2 weeks of the month.
9:01 spiders gotta love this room
@11:47 you can see file structure on the tektronics scope and the file is saved to Desktop.
Really cool stuff, GN!
Really great to see such interesting content from you guys!
In all seriousness, this I would love an expanded series on this aimed at Electrical Engineering undergraduates.
Rare inside look into an AIB spectrum emissions lab, highly interesting! Other tech journalists should take notice!
Working there looking pretty interesting.
Thats $20-$30K for an EMI compliance testing session when they send it to a 3rd party. If thats an ETS lindgren chamber (one of the antennas was an ETS lindgren antenna) then the chamber will be $250k for just the chamber. probably a good bit more since they are using the ferrite tiles behind the foam. (That foam they have will go to ~500 MHZ, judging by the depth, the ferrite tiles extend it much lower) By time you add the turn table, antennas, EMI receivers, etc, you're looking at $400K+ if you're talking everything new.
I really love this content!
That audio and EMI chamber is pretty advanced setup for just "pre-testing". But I guess, it is important to do testing often before committing to a specific design. And I guess MSI is bigger than I suspected :)
Hey Steve and crew, welcome back to Taipei! Don’t let the constant rain get you down!
P.S.: go grab some Din Tai Fung!
when are we getting gaming benchmarks for the oscilloscope?
If you are implying its slow...idk whats slow. The signal you are seeing is over a large time windows its gonna look blurred af/not doing anything. Make the time windows smaller u see the signal.
I just noticed that it was running windows 7 and thought it would be funny to try gaming on it. Also you are right I don't know why the time window is so big you don't even get to see the actual signal.@@ChillPokePulls
Excuse me lol. I didnt see the end of the video when he uses the scope as a widows screen >
That windows 7 screen saver 10:47
Can't wait for GN to have these equipment. Push it to the limits Steve!
The problem with using phone in there is that it is a well shielded room. So if you enter with a phone, your phone will start sending with very high power to get to the cell anyway. This could have bad effects on some sensitive equipment.
I always wondered about those labels on some electronic gadgets that say something to the effect of: this device must not emit and electromagnetic interference, and must tolerate any interference exposed to it", or something along those lines.
looks sweaty in that radiation room.
You'd be surprised what omitting one resistor after a crystal oscillator can do with various communication channels, even when the electronics is in a shielded Faraday case. There are many techniques which are used in PCB manufacturing to not only are for functionality purposes but also EM radiation mitigation.
I've used that scope for my work quite a bit and the DPO70000SX which is a few times more expensive. They are very impressive pieces of kit. You should get a couple of them
It's interesting to see high tech, super expensive equipment combined with cheap diy solutions like cardboard boxes and rolls of tape in the role of equipment stands.
EMI is Electro Magnetic Interference and isn't the same as radiation from a radioactive material like Uranium. Radiation in this context is "does the product radiate an electro magnetic signal that can interfere with another product". Layman's terms is it pretending to be a radio transmitter in the electro magnetic frequency.
alpha, gamma, xray, ultraviolet, visible light, infrared, microwave and RF are all various frequency groups of electromagnetic radiation. they are all part of the same general classification as radiation. radioactive materials are those that can emit said radiation without any assistance, and do so in the ionizing radiation spectrum. this means, radioactive materials can still cause EMI in equipment, and can be more potent in doing so. The radiation from a radioactive material like Uranium is technically the same as any other radiation, just the radiation from radioactive materials have a much smaller wavelength.
might get MSI next time, just because this was an awesome video, thanks Steve! :)
Half expected Lucky the Dragon’s breath to be the source of MSI’s radiation 🐲
$20,000-$30,000??? I don't think so. I worked in a hardware lab and a single, closet sized radio testing chamber was $250,000.
We're just using the numbers they gave us!
@@GamersNexus fair enough. I'm guessing they don't want to actually give anything away by giving an accurate number.
Next time bring a mod mat for the work table i am surprised they let you film that.
I use the same analyzer a couple of times a week to test and adjust radio equipment, if a fire broke out in the company i would try to run back in and grab it, because it is fantastic for the job we are doing.
at $20K, this EMI room is very cheap. in UK each of those tiles costs £15 and they are 10cm square the interesting part is the equipment needed to drive the antenna , table ( which rotates ) - where each costs about the same as a house ..... freaking expensive.
Looks like an array of giant 8700k's
Love the signal testing lab......... just like us they use anything lying around to help stabilize the gear. ^___^
The tektronix dpo 71604c @ 10:41 is $60k... pre-owned...
They said $25K, so no idea!
waowww amazing!!! Thanks from France for your really great job! it's really good to see your videos :) glhf :))
I would have guessed that EMI room was a heck of a lot more than $20K to build.
Pretty cool stuff. Wish I had a mental intuition for DbA and other sound metrics. Usually I'm really lost when such numbers come up.
Yeey quality content
Amusing observation: The sound traps in the anechoic chamber was just the right color frequency of yellow to increase contrast at the edge of any object of a different color. Steve looks like he was green screened over stock footage. LOL!
Ah! The fluorescent lights seem to be adding to the jittery, frame drop simulation, as well. So, it's a few things making this happen. LOL
the sound testing room is so cool. But the way you shot the scene makes it look to me like you put steve in front of a greenscreen and added the room after. Well except for the shadows of course but it's so confusing to look at.
Do those cfl lights hum in the sound room?
@@PredatoryQQmber Agreed! The power supply does have a hum on almost all cfls. GG msi.
During EMC emissions testing, lights and unneeded things are mostly shut off with a switch outside to prevent noise, they may do the same during sound tests.
@@larsjrgensen5975 good to know ty
Had the same question immediately at 6:30. I had CFL and LED lamps audible in regular rooms, can't imagine they could be left on during actual testing.
So these rooms disable RayTracing IRL, right?
Yes, you should add foam padding to your wallt to double your fps
I like real engineering. Top!!
Fascinating...
All this testing equipment probably sounds expensive to most but it really isn't that expensive. I've worked with equipment that amounted to a nice Porsche. And obviously there's far more expensive stuff too.
Speak of the devil, just when I ran out of Fukushima and Chernobyl documentaries to watch!
It isn't metal panelling inside. They are ferrite tiles designed for low frequency attenuation of signals.
The absorber is designed for higher frequency.
The horn can go to 18GHz but being lazy, civilian standards for non radios top out at 6 GHz.
MSI would be pushing it I suspect to get full cert on their iOATS SAC re NSA but not required for precomplaince.
6db is a good initial rule so nice to see a smart company apply it.
If you need phone on flight mode outside of the room when taking measurements it implies poor shielding or earthing
Inside a room if measurements then phone shouldn't be there as fligtmode still has plenty of non tx emissions. (It is generally good practice to flight mode however just in case. Only ever seen juniors have issues though )
Nice to see the roof net. Been a few falling tiles in the past around the world. Ferrite tiles are deceptively heavy.
Sick
So, what just came to my mind is maybe that you could try and build the absolutely loudest build you have ever done. If it's actually cooling effectively or not is all your decision :D
>Steve thinks his voice will lose some base when he goes in the anechoic room
>Has more base in his voice instead
>Win for viewers with good subwoofers.
Ah man, radiation testing is just EMI testing? Would be interesting to see how GPUs respond to α, β, and γ radiation, though I can't think of a reason why any of them would need to be hardened against them. Oh well, beggars can't be choosers, and it was a very interesting and informative video.
Anyone else looked at the wall tiles and thought giant cpu's in a tray?
To me it looked like one of those launch pad things that a dj uses
The shots in the an-echoic chamber looked "shopped" Took me a sec to tell they weren't by the shadows.
Awesome!
"The coil whine is in spec."
Thanks for creating such great educational content!
Such advanced testing and yet we get loudly coil whining video cards. WHY
Because they do not care, low price is worth more then quality.
I wish paying extra was at least an *option* for a guaranteed result...
I would be interested in the spike seen from the cell phone and how it compares to a PC.
Im not quite sure I follow...radiation from computer components...??
Electromagnetic radiation. Oscillating charges (i.e. what happens in pc circuits) produce e.m. waves at the frequency of the oscillations. This can interfere with radio devices which operate at such frequencies, among other things (like frying things). The tests are to ensure the intensity of the radiation is not large enough to cause problems.
Surprised there was no mention of FCC testing.
Thumb up bro
I have that same blue and yellow soldiering iron!
Steve I want to see the review of the nr600 by cooler master when if becomes available.
Anyone able to tell what mainboard is being tested around 10:50
*goes to MSI labs ~ uses bequiet as sponsor*
Whatever camera setup you use, it looks like the sound dampaning room is composite greenscreen behind you.
Watching at 1080p on a 720p plasma TV.
Nice clickbait with the radioactive symbol lol