@@fabianpatrizio2865 is there links about Ciacerio? I tried to google this dialect but i didn't find anything, im really curious about this dialect which sounds more Latin than Italic
@@fabianpatrizio2865 yeah if you pronounce it like an anglophone it's going to sound kinda trash lmao. but no one says the spanish intervocalic b (which is essentially what this is) sounds weird or anything.
Amazing, its true that the OID (Old Italian Dialect) from south Latium i think still sounds the Authentic Latin, Italian might be similar but is also very different, especially in the Tuscan Variant. In Latin the "V" sounds "W" as the Senior man pronounced it
@@saguntum-iberian-greekkons7014 yea, even today the people from the mountains of basilicata refer to ourselves (i am diaspora and we still refer to ourselves) as lucani. Our dialect is also called lucanian as well. We pronounce our Vs as the english W and our AE as the roman AE.
Niko Caraballo I think you’re correct. I can’t think of any Ciociaro word with a “v” that isn’t pronounced like a “w”. I may be wrong though. My favourite is any “pi” word changing to “chi”. For example, piangere (to cry) or piovere (to rain) is chiagne (key-an-yay) and chiowe (key-oh-weh) in Ciociaro.
We do not know how Latin sounded like at the age of Ceaser, or Cicero, or Augustus. We only have 2 sources The church, that spoke latin always since the fall of Rome and the Eastern Roman Empire, so Byzantium the problem is that neither of those are probably correct in ecclesiastical latin, the V is pronounced V
To be precise, the ciociaro is a central Italian dialect, the only Italian dialects are found in Tuscany! For example, the milanese (dialect of Milan) is a dialect of Lombard language, the palermitano is a dialect of Sicilian languages. In Italy there are 13 romance languages: Friulano, lombardo, piemontese, ligure, emiliano, romagnolo, italiano, italiano mediano, napoletano, siciliano, sardo and veneto
The W for V is most prominent around Casalvieri where this chap is from. Only a few kilometres away in Atina or any of the other close villages the V sound is a V
Love this video! I am Italian American but my family is Ciociaro. It was considered uneducated to speak in dialect and so my parents always tried to have us learn the "standard" Italian. My father's side of the family speaks mostly dialect, but my mom's side mostly Italian (both of them kind of mix them up a little bit). When I was a little kid, I used to correct my maternal grandmother when she would tell me something in dialect. As a result, my siblings and I can understand Ciociaro but we can't really speak it without effort. I wish they hadn't done this because I wish we could have kept up the dialect too.
William Debianchi I just learned recently that Ciociaro is actually in the umbrella of Neapolitan. Very interesting. It does have more Latin influence it seems. For example, for “andare” (to go), we say “ire” which is very similar to Latin.
Lol I feel that, my family is really close and my grandmas cousin is half Sicilian. I remember trying to learn Italian to speak to her and her dad... Bruh we did not understand each other. 😂😂😂 But they speak English fluently so we just stuck with that
Casalvieri dialect has a 'w" sound rather than "v" when it occurs. This us thought to be a Latin remnant. However even within a few km the "w" is pronounced 'v" e g. In Atina or any of the surrounding villages
This is my extended family's dialect--I would be so interested in whatever other resources you've found or created on it. Like most Boomers my parents weren't taught their heritage languages and only know how to swear. I had to learn standard Italian in college in order to get any exposure. But I remember the general sound enough to know that your male friend here sounds so much like my departed aunts and uncles (nonno's siblings, and nonno didn't live long enough to meet me) who came to the US as native speakers!
The fact is that the italian "dialects" are in fact all different languages. Italy has been divided for so long that we had practically no way to communicate with each other. Neapolitan, Sardinian, Sicilian, Venetian, and others are all languages by themselves with their dialects. Italian was created by starting with the Florentine dialect of Tuscan, no one spoke it until the advent of televisions after ww2, this brought television in the houses of many italians and with it also the language of the government.
Yes I had to explain to someone once that Sicilian isn't Italian and that Sicilians aren't Italian.... The regions of modern Italy were forced together by the Italians long ago but that doesn't make them all Italian lol. China does the same thing
@@alexandrahenderson4368 with this logic no one would be italian then. i agree in saying that the sicilian language is not italian, but sicilians are italians
@@sahara9430 Sicilians are literally not Italian .... Sicily was colonized by Italy... Again that's like calling native Americans English french or Spanish.
@@sahara9430 no one with functioning braincells and history education thinks Sicilians are Italian. Their situation is the same as Ireland Scotland and Wales. They're not English. They're owned by England.
Tomorrow is "addëmanë", the day after tomorrow "pëscrá", after after tomorrow "pëscrignë", later still "pëscruozzë". Yesterday is "jérë", day before yesterday is "itèrza", day before before yesterday is "isctèrza".
In Salento we say: "nusterzu" (the day before yesterday) - from "nudius tertium" (now is the third day), taking the first day into account as usual in Latin in Italian would be AVANTIERI or L'ALTRO IERI "jeri" (yesterday) - from "heri" in Italian IERI "osçi" [with a weak SH sound] (today) - from "hodie" in Italian OGGI "crai" (tomorrow) - from "cras" in Italian DOMANI "puscrai" (the day after tomorrow) - from "post cras" in Italian DOPODOMANI or POSDOMANI "puscriddhri" (within three days) - from "post cras illud" (that other day after tomorrow) in Italian there's no corresponding form, so we just say FRA TRE GIORNI (within three days) Other forms are created by means of diminutive or intensive suffixes, such as "nusterzignu", "puscriddhrignu" and "puscriddhrazzi", but they're rarely used nowadays except for ironic contexts.
Was this version of old Italian used in the medieval era, or is it not that old? Also, I couldn't help but notice that old Italian is more similar to Portuguese, which suggests the relatively to be closer to Latin, the language both of these came from.
It's not italian at all, it is it's own language. People like to refer to these languages as dialects of Italian but it is completely wrong. They've all evolved seperately from vulgar latin. Modern Italian is actually based on Dante Alighieri's "Divina Commedia" written in 1308-1320 which is based off the Florentine dialect of the Tuscan language. There are further modifications made to Dante's Italian centuries later, but a fluent speaker can perfectly read and understand these books in the original form. If you think about it Modern Italian is Medieval Italian. If you have any more questions, I'm happy to respond.
@@deathbymonkeys1000 I'm glad you're happy to respond to more questions. I'm trying to read the work of Fiore dei Liberi. Italian speakers have said that it's not easy for them, and you need to learn middle Italian to understand it correctly. He wrote his work in this language (I know there are various dialects. I'm not sure which his is). Some of his other works (actually, I believe only one) is written in Latin. If it's classical Latin, clerical Latin, or vulgar Latin is what I don't know. I know it's not neo Latin haha 😆😂 Would the Florentine dialect of the Tuscan language be one to study to read what I'm trying to translate?
@@-smp-scientificmethodpersp838 Well middle Italian is essentially the florentine dialect of the 14th century. Dante's Commedia was used as a guideline after its publication but since there wasn't any standardization established until the 19th century, I'm sure Fiore dei Liberi takes some creative liberties when writing. It's important to understand that La Divina Commedia is 3 books all written in different "dialects." The first one, Inferno, is written how the average peasant/the majority would speak in florence so it is rough around the edges. The second book is written in a "middle class" manner of Florence so the language is "cleaned" up a bit, and the last book is written in latin. From this series, people probably picked and chose which words they wanted to use, how they wanted to spell them, and possibly used words from their own languages when producing their own works. That's possibly why Fiore is a difficult read. I'm not sure if that's confusing.
@@deathbymonkeys1000 no, I get exactly what you mean. Thank you! So, what's the best way for me to learn how to read and interpret Fiore's work? Like, how do I learn? Where do I start? What should I work towards mastering?
@@-smp-scientificmethodpersp838 How proficient are you in Italian? It's probably better to learn that than an extinct written form of a medieval language. In learning Italian, there would be access to italian documents which, in my experience, have understandably better materials and information on the history of the peninsula. Translators, grammar books, and conjugation books are always your friends when learning. It is a near-completely phonetic language so pronunciation is straight forward. Verbs aren't too bad if you're already familiar with romance languages.
I tried to look for "Ciociaro Dialect" but I didn't get any (serious) results, can someone help me having more informations about this amazing and archaic dialect?
@@mertkocabas7604 Thank you, even if its the only information i read when I searched for it on the Internet, are you Italian? What are your local dialects?
@@xano2921 RIGHT! So what looks like the Ciocario Dialect? Can you give me a link or even some other setence examples? (Mostly the words with more Latin similarity rather then the Tuscan one)
io non capiro mai perche tutti dicono che la pronuncia della chiesa non è giusta. Ma poi se la pronuncia eclesiatica è sbagliata da dove viene quella "corretta"?
L'alfabeto latino è un alfabeto fonetico, per cui in origine a ogni suono doveva corrispondere una lettera. La pronuncia ecclesiastica presenta un sacco di problemi soprattutto nel consonantismo, per esempio la "c" e la "g" a cui corrispondono due suoni diversi, dolce e duro, oppure la "h" iniziale ignorata, la "y" pronunciata uguale alla "i" invece che come la "y" greca. La pronuncia ricostruita dai linguisti a partire dalle lingue neolatine è sicuramente più coerente e meno problematica, anche se non abbiamo la prova che sia "corretta" al 100%.
per gli stessi motivi che tu pensi che la pronuncia della chiesa tedesca è brutta e sbagliata, mentre la pronuncia della chiesa francese è mostruosa e un insulto alla lingua. è ovvio: una lingua pronunciata come un'altra lingua è sempre sbagliata, anche se si tratta della stessa lingua separata da un millennio e mezzo (il che vale anche per il francese). ci sono stati molti autori e grammatici latini che hanno scritto sulla pronuncia del latino - non è una misteria. ci sono stati molti ricercatori che hanno letto quelle descrizioni, le hanno confrontate con le prove linguistiche ed hanno sintetizzato le loro conoscenze. e questo è che si chiama "la pronuncia restituta" - non "corretta" ma semplicemente informata dalla realtà invece che dall'ossequio alla tradizione
It's interesting because dialects from Lazio, including medieval roman, are closely related to neapolitan. However the modern roman dialect doesn't sound like this at all. That's cause romanesco underwent a process of tuscanization during the middle ages that made it almost identical to tuscanian and therefore standard italian
![[กูเพิ่งซื้อมึงปิดหนี] 20 นาที ผมรีวิวเกมที่แย่ที่สุดในโลก CONCORD](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/XhC-3q3Ii7I/mqdefault.jpg)
W initial sound in Ciociaro , is closer to classical Latin, i.e. vedi, veni, vici, was actually wedi, weni, wici.
Caesar wouldn't have sounded very kick ass saying Wedi Weni Wici! :))
@@fabianpatrizio2865 Might make him sound like he had a speech impediment, but is what he probably said (if he actually said it at all)!
@@fabianpatrizio2865 is there links about Ciacerio? I tried to google this dialect but i didn't find anything, im really curious about this dialect which sounds more Latin than Italic
@@fabianpatrizio2865 yeah if you pronounce it like an anglophone it's going to sound kinda trash lmao. but no one says the spanish intervocalic b (which is essentially what this is) sounds weird or anything.
@@fabianpatrizio2865 Not to a Roman or a proper Latin speaker, they would've thought he was a German or illiterate
Amazing, its true that the OID (Old Italian Dialect) from south Latium i think still sounds the Authentic Latin, Italian might be similar but is also very different, especially in the Tuscan Variant. In Latin the "V" sounds "W" as the Senior man pronounced it
Its basically the same
Even us Lucanians have this, we truly are still the sons and daughters of Rome 🐺💪🏻🐂
@@nsa6865 Lucanians? The ancient tribe enemy of the Samnites?
@@saguntum-iberian-greekkons7014 yea, even today the people from the mountains of basilicata refer to ourselves (i am diaspora and we still refer to ourselves) as lucani. Our dialect is also called lucanian as well. We pronounce our Vs as the english W and our AE as the roman AE.
Amazing how this dialect retains the original Latin v sound in these words! Does this dialect do that for all v's?
Niko Caraballo I think you’re correct. I can’t think of any Ciociaro word with a “v” that isn’t pronounced like a “w”. I may be wrong though. My favourite is any “pi” word changing to “chi”. For example, piangere (to cry) or piovere (to rain) is chiagne (key-an-yay) and chiowe (key-oh-weh) in Ciociaro.
We do not know how Latin sounded like at the age of Ceaser, or Cicero, or Augustus.
We only have 2 sources
The church, that spoke latin always since the fall of Rome
and the Eastern Roman Empire, so Byzantium
the problem is that neither of those are probably correct
in ecclesiastical latin, the V is pronounced V
To be precise, the ciociaro is a central Italian dialect, the only Italian dialects are found in Tuscany! For example, the milanese (dialect of Milan) is a dialect of Lombard language, the palermitano is a dialect of Sicilian languages.
In Italy there are 13 romance languages:
Friulano, lombardo, piemontese, ligure, emiliano, romagnolo, italiano, italiano mediano, napoletano, siciliano, sardo and veneto
Lmao yes
The W for V is most prominent around Casalvieri where this chap is from. Only a few kilometres away in Atina or any of the other close villages the V sound is a V
Love this video! I am Italian American but my family is Ciociaro. It was considered uneducated to speak in dialect and so my parents always tried to have us learn the "standard" Italian. My father's side of the family speaks mostly dialect, but my mom's side mostly Italian (both of them kind of mix them up a little bit). When I was a little kid, I used to correct my maternal grandmother when she would tell me something in dialect. As a result, my siblings and I can understand Ciociaro but we can't really speak it without effort. I wish they hadn't done this because I wish we could have kept up the dialect too.
"Ehh,I gotta think"😆
More please. Fascinating
Interesting. Like classical latin and neapolitan mixed
William Debianchi I just learned recently that Ciociaro is actually in the umbrella of Neapolitan. Very interesting. It does have more Latin influence it seems. For example, for “andare” (to go), we say “ire” which is very similar to Latin.
@LegoGuy87 true
My family speaks Molisian mixed with Abruzzo... I can't understand regular Italian
Lol I feel that, my family is really close and my grandmas cousin is half Sicilian. I remember trying to learn Italian to speak to her and her dad... Bruh we did not understand each other. 😂😂😂 But they speak English fluently so we just stuck with that
Casalvieri dialect has a 'w" sound rather than "v" when it occurs. This us thought to be a Latin remnant. However even within a few km the "w" is pronounced 'v" e g. In Atina or any of the surrounding villages
This is my extended family's dialect--I would be so interested in whatever other resources you've found or created on it. Like most Boomers my parents weren't taught their heritage languages and only know how to swear. I had to learn standard Italian in college in order to get any exposure. But I remember the general sound enough to know that your male friend here sounds so much like my departed aunts and uncles (nonno's siblings, and nonno didn't live long enough to meet me) who came to the US as native speakers!
Thank you Michael, for studying this old dialect!❤
My mother and my maternal grandparents speak this dialect.
Love this video. Nello sounds like my parents and their friends from SETTEFRATI, FROSINONE where we all came from.
Good vid, but proof that you shouldnt cut the audio budget
True kid
the old guy looks like picasso
It’s not him though.
waca like vaca (cow) in spanish
The modern dialct of Lazio (region of Rome) is a mix of this ancient Neapolitan-like dialect and Tuscan dialect.
The fact is that the italian "dialects" are in fact all different languages.
Italy has been divided for so long that we had practically no way to communicate with each other. Neapolitan, Sardinian, Sicilian, Venetian, and others are all languages by themselves with their dialects.
Italian was created by starting with the Florentine dialect of Tuscan, no one spoke it until the advent of televisions after ww2, this brought television in the houses of many italians and with it also the language of the government.
That's why you have the hand gestures.
Yes I had to explain to someone once that Sicilian isn't Italian and that Sicilians aren't Italian.... The regions of modern Italy were forced together by the Italians long ago but that doesn't make them all Italian lol.
China does the same thing
@@alexandrahenderson4368 with this logic no one would be italian then. i agree in saying that the sicilian language is not italian, but sicilians are italians
@@sahara9430 Sicilians are literally not Italian .... Sicily was colonized by Italy... Again that's like calling native Americans English french or Spanish.
@@sahara9430 no one with functioning braincells and history education thinks Sicilians are Italian. Their situation is the same as Ireland Scotland and Wales. They're not English. They're owned by England.
"Vaca" (cow), like in spanish.
woww
@Mythic Slash wooow
"Vacca" is the older and most correct word in Italian too, "mucca" used to mean "Swiss dairy cow"
How do they say "tomorrow?" Domani, diman or crai? Or something else?
Tomorrow is "addëmanë", the day after tomorrow "pëscrá", after after tomorrow "pëscrignë", later still "pëscruozzë". Yesterday is "jérë", day before yesterday is "itèrza", day before before yesterday is "isctèrza".
In apulian we say crè for tomorrow and nusterz for the day before yesterday, like the words cras and nudius tertium in latin.
In Salento we say:
"nusterzu" (the day before yesterday) - from "nudius tertium" (now is the third day), taking the first day into account as usual in Latin
in Italian would be AVANTIERI or L'ALTRO IERI
"jeri" (yesterday) - from "heri"
in Italian IERI
"osçi" [with a weak SH sound] (today) - from "hodie"
in Italian OGGI
"crai" (tomorrow) - from "cras"
in Italian DOMANI
"puscrai" (the day after tomorrow) - from "post cras"
in Italian DOPODOMANI or POSDOMANI
"puscriddhri" (within three days) - from "post cras illud" (that other day after tomorrow)
in Italian there's no corresponding form, so we just say FRA TRE GIORNI (within three days)
Other forms are created by means of diminutive or intensive suffixes, such as "nusterzignu", "puscriddhrignu" and "puscriddhrazzi", but they're rarely used nowadays except for ironic contexts.
@@janeyre82 Thank you for that very helpful and interesting note!
Diaterz : three days ago
Was this version of old Italian used in the medieval era, or is it not that old? Also, I couldn't help but notice that old Italian is more similar to Portuguese, which suggests the relatively to be closer to Latin, the language both of these came from.
It's not italian at all, it is it's own language. People like to refer to these languages as dialects of Italian but it is completely wrong. They've all evolved seperately from vulgar latin. Modern Italian is actually based on Dante Alighieri's "Divina Commedia" written in 1308-1320 which is based off the Florentine dialect of the Tuscan language. There are further modifications made to Dante's Italian centuries later, but a fluent speaker can perfectly read and understand these books in the original form. If you think about it Modern Italian is Medieval Italian.
If you have any more questions, I'm happy to respond.
@@deathbymonkeys1000 I'm glad you're happy to respond to more questions. I'm trying to read the work of Fiore dei Liberi. Italian speakers have said that it's not easy for them, and you need to learn middle Italian to understand it correctly. He wrote his work in this language (I know there are various dialects. I'm not sure which his is). Some of his other works (actually, I believe only one) is written in Latin. If it's classical Latin, clerical Latin, or vulgar Latin is what I don't know. I know it's not neo Latin haha 😆😂 Would the Florentine dialect of the Tuscan language be one to study to read what I'm trying to translate?
@@-smp-scientificmethodpersp838 Well middle Italian is essentially the florentine dialect of the 14th century. Dante's Commedia was used as a guideline after its publication but since there wasn't any standardization established until the 19th century, I'm sure Fiore dei Liberi takes some creative liberties when writing.
It's important to understand that La Divina Commedia is 3 books all written in different "dialects." The first one, Inferno, is written how the average peasant/the majority would speak in florence so it is rough around the edges. The second book is written in a "middle class" manner of Florence so the language is "cleaned" up a bit, and the last book is written in latin. From this series, people probably picked and chose which words they wanted to use, how they wanted to spell them, and possibly used words from their own languages when producing their own works. That's possibly why Fiore is a difficult read. I'm not sure if that's confusing.
@@deathbymonkeys1000 no, I get exactly what you mean. Thank you! So, what's the best way for me to learn how to read and interpret Fiore's work? Like, how do I learn? Where do I start? What should I work towards mastering?
@@-smp-scientificmethodpersp838 How proficient are you in Italian? It's probably better to learn that than an extinct written form of a medieval language. In learning Italian, there would be access to italian documents which, in my experience, have understandably better materials and information on the history of the peninsula.
Translators, grammar books, and conjugation books are always your friends when learning. It is a near-completely phonetic language so pronunciation is straight forward. Verbs aren't too bad if you're already familiar with romance languages.
Non so se è una grande coincidenza o cosa ma questo è il nostro dialetto. Magari TH-cam mi avrà sentito parlare al telefono
The standard Italian speaker has some kind of an American accent, especially in the way she pronounces her Ls!
Why would you repeat the English word in the subtitle of the spoken Italian and Ciociaria? Has no use, better to describe what they are saying
Ciociari's word for wine is the way an italian would read the word written in english if he had no knowledge of the language lol
I tried to look for "Ciociaro Dialect" but I didn't get any (serious) results, can someone help me having more informations about this amazing and archaic dialect?
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ciociaria I guess it is a local dialect in far southern Lazio
@@mertkocabas7604 Thank you, even if its the only information i read when I searched for it on the Internet, are you Italian? What are your local dialects?
@@saguntum-iberian-greekkons7014 I found that information on the internet too, I am Turkish
@@saguntum-iberian-greekkons7014 I'm Italian, ask me anything...
@@xano2921 RIGHT! So what looks like the Ciocario Dialect? Can you give me a link or even some other setence examples? (Mostly the words with more Latin similarity rather then the Tuscan one)
For the longest time I thought I understood Italian but actually it was the Ciociaro dialect
My fathers side of the family from near La Spezia have their own dialect.... its almost impossible.... calice di cornoviglio, madrignano.
Bellissimo!!
io non capiro mai perche tutti dicono che la pronuncia della chiesa non è giusta. Ma poi se la pronuncia eclesiatica è sbagliata da dove viene quella "corretta"?
L'alfabeto latino è un alfabeto fonetico, per cui in origine a ogni suono doveva corrispondere una lettera. La pronuncia ecclesiastica presenta un sacco di problemi soprattutto nel consonantismo, per esempio la "c" e la "g" a cui corrispondono due suoni diversi, dolce e duro, oppure la "h" iniziale ignorata, la "y" pronunciata uguale alla "i" invece che come la "y" greca. La pronuncia ricostruita dai linguisti a partire dalle lingue neolatine è sicuramente più coerente e meno problematica, anche se non abbiamo la prova che sia "corretta" al 100%.
per gli stessi motivi che tu pensi che la pronuncia della chiesa tedesca è brutta e sbagliata, mentre la pronuncia della chiesa francese è mostruosa e un insulto alla lingua. è ovvio: una lingua pronunciata come un'altra lingua è sempre sbagliata, anche se si tratta della stessa lingua separata da un millennio e mezzo (il che vale anche per il francese). ci sono stati molti autori e grammatici latini che hanno scritto sulla pronuncia del latino - non è una misteria. ci sono stati molti ricercatori che hanno letto quelle descrizioni, le hanno confrontate con le prove linguistiche ed hanno sintetizzato le loro conoscenze. e questo è che si chiama "la pronuncia restituta" - non "corretta" ma semplicemente informata dalla realtà invece che dall'ossequio alla tradizione
Very interesting. I was here. - Lady Nafeesah Hope #hapi
Asi es compa
sounds like napulitan
It's interesting because dialects from Lazio, including medieval roman, are closely related to neapolitan. However the modern roman dialect doesn't sound like this at all. That's cause romanesco underwent a process of tuscanization during the middle ages that made it almost identical to tuscanian and therefore standard italian
@@m.m.1301 Yeah i realized that Romanesco looks way more Tuscan than many other dialects
It's a different language
Yes
Spanish is closer to standard Italian than this dialect.
It sounds like an intermediate form between Italian and French.
Nah. Search up Emilian, thats way more french than this dialect.
That sounds so similar to romanian
Pronunciation of the "old italian" sounds way more like latin pronunciation.
Romanian words
OMG this is something you can study!!!?
Amazing how it sounds like the portuguese from portugal....
I speak both and I don't think so 😂
Posso in italiano e posso in Portuguese.
I don't see any similarities with eur Portuguese and this
Venetian is way more portuguese sounding mate.
Ma chi è che in italiano saluta dicendo "salute"?
Persone di una certa età in alcune regioni lo fanno di certo. Posso testimoniare della mia (Salento), ma probabilmente anche altrove.
Mia nonna è molisana e saluta con "salute" a volte.
Oe compaesà 👋🤣
Molto poco.
waca like vaca (cow) in spanish