BSWorks 5- Flat Spins and Twins
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 22 ม.ค. 2024
- BSWorks 5- Flat Spins and Twins
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FlyWire is about exploring flight and the freedom this incredible experience brings us on a personal level. Flying has always captured the imagination and excitement of living life to its fullest. Hi, I'm Scott Perdue. In a former life I flew the F-4 and F-15E, more recently I retired from a major airline. I've written for several aviation magazines over the years, was a consultant for RAND, the USAF, Navy, NASA as well as few others, wrote a military thriller- 'Pale Moon Rising' (still on Kindle). But mostly I like flying, or teaching flying. Some of the most fun I had was with Tom Gresham on a TV show called 'Wings to Adventure". We flew lots of different airplanes all over the country. Now with FlyWire I want to showcase the fun in flying, share the joy and freedom of flight and explore the world with you. Make sure you subscribe if you want to go along for the ride!
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In the immortal words of Bob Hoover, "all the airplane knows is how much air is flowing over the wings."
I hope you guys continue to do these types of things. You are my two favorite informational, no-nonsense pilots on TH-cam.
You gotta invite Petter from Mentour Pilot in too.
@@ibnewton8951 I'm not sure how much GA content he does. It's these guys' GA content that will ultimately save lives. If I were to recommend an addition along those lines, it'd probably be Jason Miller.
Nice job guys!❤🇺🇸
This is absolutely brilliant content. As a long time MEI, with lots of spin training I never fully appreciated the inertia coupling in a twin. Please keep this coming and lets hope everyone has instructors who teach spin-prevention and demonstrate incipient spins for all their students.
I enjoy what Scott and Juan discuss. I’m not a pilot but learn a lot about physics and human behavior. Know your environment. Know your equipment. Know your abilities. Trucking is my profession what I learn from listening and learning from other professionals will help me in my career. Also Thanks for there Service for Our Country
Gentlemen, excellent discussion. Really appreciate the military perspective. I did my private without any spin training. First thing I did afterward was spin training with an instructor in a 150 Aerobat. Don't see too many of those around anymore.
Thanks for better explaining "AFT" in idle/neutral/aft at 50:00 as I was having a hard time grasping it why not forward. But to get more air moving on the rudder makes sense, a bit counter-intuitive, but now I see.
That was really informative! 400 level class for pilots, but the information is accessible to those not at that level yet. Thank you
Thanks for that!
Very interesting! Great discussion! Thanks for sharing your knowledge! Falling leaf 👍
Please learn how to share a window properly so 1) some of the critical graphic information is not off the screen & 2) When you talk, and use your hands to explain something, you stop the share so we can see the gestures. I LOVE the videos. Thank You for this one! I hope you continue doing these!
Take a parachute - Huh ? Scare me - My friend spun all the way in from 8,000 ft. To Atlantic Ocean . South Florida - Dark Day - Good guy ! Never forget . We miss his jokes and… his friendship . Damn , sad .
You guys make a great tag team.
I'm not a pilot but enjoy both of your works. This appears to be a fantastic spread of information and couldn't be better shared than this team up in my opinion!oh, strike eagle is fine by me!
Great pod cast guys and very informative! I was trained in Canada but it was so long ago I have forgotten the VMC at the time but do recall the inspector mentioning something about blocking the rudder! so I wouldn’t kill him! We never had observers in the back seat!
Cerca1973
I remember the Transport Canada examiner expressed a degree of trepidation regarding the manouver, and we had a safety discussion during the preflight briefing. It was a long time ago, but I remember an examiner and student were killed in an accident during that period of the 70's.
I don't think I'd want to try a Vmca demonstration after watching this video.
This was really entertaining and informative. The F bombs at the beginning got my attention.
Nice to know why people die in light twins when unexpected spins happen. I hope instructors will take notice to prevent killing students and innocent passengers.
Please don't try prohibited maneuvers. Read the manual to familiarize yourself with the model your are instructing in and stay away from prohibited maneuvers.
The first thing I learned in the late 70's when I started flight instruction was;
There are old pilots and bold pilots but no old bold pilots.
I have a few dead friends that were old bold pilots. I didn't enjoy going to their funerals.
Nice to listen to military pilots talk about stuff that us civilian pilots will never touch. Good stuff to hear.
Don't be a test pilot if you're not trained to be one.
It seems logical to do spin in a safe airplane and no approaching spin in unsafe airplanes. They could do the recovery steps in the unsafe airplane without going to the edge, you announce the spin instead of doing the actual spin. The feel of the edge comes from stuff in the safe airplane, it might not work in that airplane, but you could practice the recovery steps in the safe plane also.
Thanks guys great job! 🇺🇸
Thanks guys, excellent information. Much to think about.
I really enjoy Scott and Juan, I am not a pilot Justin interested enthusiast, and like to learn things.
Full stalls are required for the PPL, other certificates are left to the discretion of the examiner if recovery is at first indication or full stall
Flight sim developer (the math and physics part) here. Yeah, modeling & simulation at full stall has been difficult and expensive, so those capabilities are rare. I believe the only sims required to have them are FFS C and D level sims needing qualification for full stall training tasks. Basic and advanced ATDs are only required to have comparable flight dynamics. So be skeptical of any company boasting realistic stalls. With AI , a practical solution for GA could be on the artificial horizon. Not just for a handful of aircraft either, but every make and model. Just need clear demand and some investment.
I'm glad to see you mentioned AI because I was going to ask if AI could be utilized to help with this problem. My oldest daughter was a math and computer science major, and she now works for a big three lettered government agency, writing programs relevant to specific needs they have....her youngest brother was trying to decide if he was going to follow in her footsteps, because she was convincing him that it was a lucrative career and just about last Spring she was changing her tune....joking that they would always need people like her but not many because she was already having AI do her work, the program writing for her. She just had to run it, then tweek and trim it. By the time her brother finished his degree she thinks some programers, especially unspecialized, will be obsolete The times they are a changing.
Private ACS is full stall. Commercial ACS is first indication
That is why opposite rudder ? Got it , I think …
The graphics on this video are cut off where the zoom video had the full graphic.
make the ratio of the window you share match the screen ratio of your full screen. What you had were graphics that were oriented up & down shared on a screen that is in landscape orientation.
G'day Scott,
Yay Team !
I thought I posted a Comment under this Video....; but I can't see it today.
Did you erase it, or did I forget to post it, or did YT Glitch...; one wonders.
I don't think I was aware of the issue of the Engine/Fuel Mass being halfway out along the Wings, or at the Wingtips making Twin (or Multi-) Engined Aeroplanes pretty much a Spiral Sled-ride if one ever permits such an Aeroplane to get into a fully-developed
Spin....
I credit you two, and Dan of the Gryder Tribe, for educating me on the issue.
I've always had a jaundiced view of not teaching Full Spins & Recoveries to Ab-Initio Students, but instead only showing them how to,
"Recognise and avoid Incipient Spins... "
On Sailplanes a lot of time, Thernalling,
Is spend flying slowly,
Close to the Stall,
Turning,
While formating without Radio,
With Strangers...;
All playing by
'The Rules'...
So they taught us
Full Spins, 3 Turns each way,
At least 3 of (twice Right /once Left.
The
First One into the Thermal,
Sets the Direction of the Turns...
For everybody entering
Afterwards...
Always,
Overtake - in
Airspeed, or
Vertical Climb Rate,
By flying on the
Outside of the Aircraft being
Overtaken...
The Blanik L-13s we learned on had Teardrop-Shaped Fairings on the Wingtips
(Tip-Vortex Suppression ?
Maybe Ballast-Water Tanks ?
Nobody ever told me why they were there...) ; but apparently because I've spun & recovered a
Blanik with Lumpy Wingtips on long long Wings...,
It never occurred to me that the problems you're explaining
Are a
Thing....(!).
I always used to think that the reason Oz' CASA banned multi-engined Ultralights (like 2 & 4-engined Lazairs...), was because on the one hand they couldn't safely climb-out after an Engine failed, while on the other hand Officialdom doubted if a "home-grown" Ultralight Pilot could safely cope with Assymetric Flight - if an Engine quit at cruising altitude...; and both those reasons seemed quite justified, to me, in inspiring the prohibition.
However you've convinced me that in the Gripping Hand, there's the fact that not many things
With Engines on their Wings,
Are at all able to recover from
Spins...(!).
Yikes !!!
Um, Golly golly Gosh...;
I had blithely assumed that since the Post WW-2 requirement for an ability to climb out at full Gross Weight, Gear-down after one Failed Engine...; that to get Certified - all Multi-Engined Aircraft were Spin-Tested (though not "certified" for Aerobatics) to ensure that the Design could, and would, come out of a Spin, when
Flown
Correctly...,
As are Single-Engined Aeroplanes...
I was wrong.
Thanks for educating me.
Keep on keeping on...
Stay safe,
Have a good one...!
;-p
Ciao !
Warbles, you did post on the 'Live' version of the video. YT saves the Live stream. I trimmed it and reposted this version.
@@FlyWirescottperdue
Ahh,
I did wonder...
Generally I wait for the Livestreams to finish, before trying to watch them.
It's the
Luddite thing, I guess...
Thanks for the explanation.
Keep on keeping on...
Stay safe.
;-p
Ciao !
Then he says : here is the F - 104 shit O dear !
But Scott - when you were attached to Marine Corps / did you hit the Navy chow line ?
That is half the dang story - really ! My brother assured me that they ALL did ! Hell Yes !
Navy cook and they have good chow - Air Force also. Anyway ---- > thanks fellers !
I have eaten in a Navy Mess Hall. Marines make great fighters, so-so cooks!
Scott--you mentioned that you were prior enlisted USMC--- did you have an aviation MOS? Did you become a USMC pilot or USAF. Thank you for your service--then and now. I was USMC Avionics---rotary wing but worked on OV-10's, and A-4C's, as well but primarily UH-1 E and UH-1N. I was a PPL when I went into USMC in 1966 --flew as air crew--UH-1E--CONUS and RVN. Later when kids gone--bought a beautiful, mint--PA-12=---have had it for 20 years. Flew it all over USA. Have had some "scares" but never bent anything.
I spent a few months as a grunt, in the doldrums of 75... talked my way into a computer assignment in Japan for a short tour and then went to PI, talked my way out of being a DI back in the critical field of computers.
Would adding the leading edge wedge on all G.A. twins benefit Vmca training, or require twins being used for this type of training to carry a droge chute?
I think its really worth it!
Wasn’t the straight vertical tail of fhe original C310 more effective for spin recovery than the subsequent swept tail designs? Seems as if the industry standard changed to swept tails purely for esthetics.
Why would the Baron have only one door ? That freaks me out - Not a skydiver , but !
Easier to build and more rigid.
Can't stall/spin a Ercoupe!
Question for Juan : in what direction ( left or right) does a T-37 go inverted first , then transition to a normal spin ?
We did spins left and right in the T-37. Part of the syllabus. Inadvertent spins were not part of the syllabus.
The airplane will not change the direction of rotation transitioning from inverted to upright. To stabilize an inverted spin you would need to go Full Forward stick. To gain SA as to what your spin attitude is... you look up.
Can you elaborate a little on why it is not advisable to slow or reduce the yaw rate with differential power in a Baron? I get that there would be a flattering tendency, but after the yaw is eliminated, couldn’t the nose be lowered to break the stall and return to controlled flight? If it works in the F-15…(I know, different bird)
Power is a pro-spin input. Definitely for the outside engine. That is common in all of these accidents. With power up you WON'T be able to get it out of the spin. Using power from the inside engine... no one has tested that. Are you going to do it? As for elevator... try pushing it in a spin... it accelerates the spin. Go watch my video FlyWire Accelerated Spins to get deeper into it.
To stop a Flat Spin you first have to remove the input causing it to go flat, then you have to stop the yaw, only then can you lower the nose and make it effective. Try lowering the nose before all that happens and you've made the spin flater... and faster!
I was talking about the training scenario where you still have 2 good engines, powering up the inside engine to stop the yaw, then reduce power to idle, allowing the nose to drop in a straight ahead stall. Just speculating and trying to wrap my head around the physics of it, not clear on why you would have to remove the flat factor first if by adding the flat factor (inside engine in this case) you could eliminate the yaw, then allow the nose to drop. In any case, I don’t plan to be a test pilot to find out. I will go watch the other video you recommended.
Airplane doesn’t have much to do with the 104 - however , point well taken I think .
Mass moments spread away from the centerline… same deal.
As a genuine question. In the video of the extra all spins were to the left so power and the 90 degree gyroscopic reaction moment results in a nose up reaction. Wouldn’t it be the opposite in a right spin resulting in a nose down gyroscopic reaction?
No.
What advantage, if any, would there be with a spoileron?
Do VG’s affect the spin characteristics of the Baron?
How did the Canadiens practice spins when you could only do them legally and older Cessnas? Unless you’re flying in aerobatic airplane like a Citabria how are you going to got your spin training?
All this and you got one door - great ! Not for Bob - See ya.
Hey Scott what about vortex generators on wings and rudder of a Baron? Would they make a difference recovering from a spin? I know avoiding one is the most important part but curious since my B55 has them and most others I’ve seen as well.
Actually, you have to do Vgs on the wings as well. And those Vgs make even a small departure bad. The Vgs on the vertical and the horizontal would be blanked by airflow and useless.
@@FlyWirescottperdue so is it safe to say that VGs may help keep you from departing a bit by lowering VMC but it will be worse if a stall/spin happens?
@@bryanshields2719 Essentially, yes
@@FlyWirescottperdue thx Scott, I don’t ever want to find out but was wondering if they would make a difference in that situation. Keep the videos coming as they help a lot of people out here. Hopefully see you at Beech Bash 👍
Stalls and spins in singles are done at a high altitude to give space for recovery. As you two astutely point out, spin recovery in a twin is essentially impossible. And, VMCa goes down with altitude for NA engines. Therefore, if we continue to require VMCa demos, should they be performed at lower altitudes to avoid the potential for stall? I did my multi training at sea-level in the winter in a Duchess. The chance of a stall was pretty low. A VMCa demo when the wings are still developing lift is a relative non-event. You guys have substantially more experience than I do, but it seems like the risk increases exponentially when a stall occurs first or shortly after. Avoid the stall and VMCa demo is primarily a yaw event without the deadly roll to a spin.
In a baron, Vmc demo usually ends with a stall horn if you are high enough. My opinion is Vmc demos should be done in the simulator and we should be taught in the plane to keep it above blue line, maintaining whatever vertical speed we can at or above blue line, even if its negative.
Performing Vmc demo at low altitude resulted in the poor safety record of the PA30 Twin Comanche back in the day. Nothing wrong with the airplane design. I owned one for 19 years. But the low altitude practice of Vmc earned the PA30 an unjust reputation as a dangerous aircraft.
If you don't know how to work a computer, just find a 12 year old kid. I think that's in the POH.
Great information but could do with more editing !
😎
👍👍👍👍
An aerobatic Bonanza is one thing, but let’s see aerobatic Barron. Probably doesn’t exist. Maybe a good fix would be to increase the rudder size and also the elevator’s. Maybe even install some sort of individual spoiler for each wing so that if you roll over to the left, you can raise the right side spoiler to force the high wing down while you’re pulling power back.
Or just fly a real aerobatic airplane similar to a Pitts Special or Extra and enjoy. Stop doing aerobatics with the wrong tools. It's super risky.
@@pittss2c601 what the heck, Denzel Washington was able to roll a 737.
What happens if the instructor blocks the rudder but the student applies the wrong input, ie opposite rudder ?
That could indeed put the plane in an instant spin.
@@igclapp ...with the instructor's foot under the pedal :)
That actually happened to me in a DC3. The Spin Prevent saved that one.
The other thing that could happen is the student pulls back on the yoke when they hear the stall horn or starts to lose directional control. That results in loss of airspeed and stall and I've heard some twins can really snap when they stall
As a multi CFI, I pre brief this maneuver and assure the student understands that I have my feet on the pedals and will be there like a mother hen to assure this does not happen. Not under the pedal, but in the normal position.
I never understood what was the purpose of vmc demo. What was I suppose to learn? Is that a maneuver I need to use in real world flight? I came away with the attitude. Man I don't want to go there I'm NOT gonna spin my plane. Forget about it. I learned that to spin you slow down and pull the yoke back so I decided I ain't gonna do that. To NOT spin you speed up and push the yoke forward. So my little brain told me ok. If you lose an engine you want to fly at VYSE but no slower than VXSE. why do they make us violate those speeds with a vmc demo?. I don't understand. That's asking for trouble.
Look at any Vmc rollover accident. If the pilots in any of these had only chopped power on the operating engine, lowered their nose and applied opposite rudder, they would avoid the Vmc rollover. Hard to do at 100 feet AGL with ground rush. They always pull the nose up and Vmc rollover becomes inevitable. We train Vmc demo to avoid this reaction.
@nelsonbrandt7847 but to me the problem is why go to vmc in the first place. The poh spells out the proper speed to fly. Why are we training to ignore those speeds and slow down to vmc? Lowering the nose is the way out of any spin even in single engine.
And the common narrative is "twins are safer 'cuz two engines ". NOT! I'll go slower and safer, thank you!