IFR Approach Mins Final Segment Lessons Learned
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 22 ธ.ค. 2022
- IFR Approach Mins Final Segment Lessons Learned from 2 accidents and a IMC story.
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FlyWire is about exploring flight and the freedom this incredible experience brings us on a personal level. Flying has always captured the imagination and excitement of living life to its fullest. Hi, I'm Scott Perdue. In a former life I flew the F-4 and F-15E, more recently I retired from a major airline. I've written for several aviation magazines over the years, was a consultant for RAND, the USAF, Navy, NASA as well as few others, wrote a military thriller- 'Pale Moon Rising' (still on Kindle). But mostly I like flying, or teaching flying. Some of the most fun I had was with Tom Gresham on a TV show called 'Wings to Adventure". We flew lots of different airplanes all over the country. Now with FlyWire I want to showcase the fun in flying, share the joy and freedom of flight and explore the world with you. Make sure you subscribe if you want to go along for the ride!
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Scott, you have the most gentle, matter of fact, presentations. I could listen to you for hours. Thank you for taking the time to present these issues for the learning of all aviators.
These recipes for disaster need to be removed one at a time if not faster. You do great work Scott showing the way.
I very much appreciate the time you take to make these videos. They are clear, well organized, and every second was useful. The value to pilots is immense and I’m convinced you are making GA safer for us all.
Thank you, I hope you're right!
I really hope you don't get tired of beating the same damned dead horses, Scott. Sometimes lessons learned in blood need to be hammered into a skull more than a few times, before they stick. Everybody needs a reminder now and then, and you're one of the best reminderers around. Merry Christmas to you and your family...and thanks.
Great video. I recently was in a situation like this in a simulator on a VOR-A approach (not aligned with the RWY). I should have gamed in and taken a slight favoring turn at the MDA to get a visual but I didn’t have one. As a former army combat guy, train as you fight, I went missed and added 20 minutes to the sim. Oh well , Live to fight another day. I’m intrigued that you were a former infantry guy gone fighter pilot. Sounds a bit like Gunther Rall, one of my hero aviators. You are doing a great service to GA with these videos! Thank you sir!
Like you, I’m a retired AF pilot, turned commercial, now retired. Still work part time as a CFII. Spend a lot of time teaching students how to be safe and legal. I use videos like this to emphasize why minimums are the way they are, and that legal is not always safe. Once again, great discussion. My students will see this one, too.
Scott you brought up some very good points . current I am an airline pilot and single engine aircraft owner as well . Pilots have to grasp that they push weather beyond limits and sooner or later things will go south regardless of experience , hours , or type . We aren't living a video game with a restart button we have one life , and it's not worth gambling it to prove we can land below minimums worse of course are gambling with trusting passengers lives who rely on us to make correct and safe decisions .
Merry Christmas Scott.
I'll be happy with this episode being an introduction to the FAA regulations relating to restricted visibility flying
needing IMC for takeoff and landing.
Have a "Chillaxing day"
🛩️🌫️
Totally agree. These examples and commentary on them seem like “required reading” for IFR students.
Thank you for another humble but informative video. I really enjoyed the focus on IFR flying. In the defense of pilots flying Cirrus aircraft, my story is a little different. I was cleared for RNAV 17 JYO (Leesburg, VA) circle to land because the Potomac Approach controller knew that the wind favored runway 35. But JYO doesn't have instrument approaches for 35 because of the proximity to Dulles International airport.
I was a bit annoyed to hear on the approach frequency that a Cirrus was cleared for the same approach behind me because of the added pressure. Facing a 600 foot AGL reported ceiling and an unfavorable wind, I knew it would likely be a straight in approach to 17 or a missed approach with no alternative but to the alternate listed in my IFR flight plan, which was Manassas.
The Cirrus pilot was vocal in asking for a straight in as opposed to circle to land, because he knew what I knew which was that the reported ceiling was at the circle to land minimum. He told Potomac TRACON that straight in to land was OK with him because Leesburg had a "long runway" compared to what he, and me in my Piper Arrow, needed. TRACON told him to ask for it from JYO Tower.
JYO Tower was on the ball and cleared me for straight in 17 if I wanted it. I said "yes!" because of the same calculus that the Cirrus pilot had already verbalized. When I broke out it was at the circle to land minimum, so I told tower "continuing straight in" because it was better to land a bit long than to scud run in violation of every warning I had received in the past about circling to land.
In the event, I turned off on the most efficient taxiway to parking, validating Mr. Cirrus in his confidence in the length of the runway. He did so as well only minutes later and we both enjoyed meeting in the FBO our family members and our rides to our destinations.
It can work out, but I agree with Scott that respect for the DA/DH/MDA is fundamental to respect for life itself.
Thank you loved the story and comments 👍
“Luck is not a strategy”. Truer words have never been spoken….. fantastic analysis..
I believe the caravan pilot inappropriately flew the LNAV + reference glidepath below MDA on an approach with no published glidepath as she missed a the crossing altitude of a stepdown fix and collided with the smoke stack. The reference glide path is 3 degrees while the required one is 3.75 degrees. Also the reference glide path is based on the actual runway which was displaced which resulted in her being too low on the reference glidepath.
Sadly the Caravan pilot had an option not far to the west.😢
I seem to recall that stack was added later after the approach was already in use, and that the approach was not modified to account for the steam emanating from the potato dryer factory. Whatever happened to the investigation into the airport not meeting FAA standards for the approach?
The temptation to continue an approach in marginal conditions is huge. Been there done that and learned the lesson. It wasn't clever (with 2020 hindsight). Mind you I do not share your reticence about less that Cat1 ops. Having landed a 757 in 75 metres with total confidence in that magnificent aircraft it is very reassuring that barring huge winds or storms you can land somewhere.
Haha, it was a thrill. But I can’t say I really enjoyed it;)
Great job on a tricky subj
Like others? GOOD on you! And THANKS for sharing what SHOULD be obvious to others!
Great video Scott. As you and many others keep stating - legal doesn't mean safe - and here we see a cirrus pilot ignoring both. Great point RE the last bit being visual.
Love your videos. In particular this one. We GA, low IFR time, pilots don't pay enough attention to the visibility minimums. We should add something to those minimums just because we aren't pros, even if we are flying slower aircraft. For instance, the minimums at KCID, where I learned to fly and get my instrument rating, are the same. Both ILS approaches are 200 and 1/2 mile. My minimums would be 800 and at least 1 mile before I'd even attempt it..
Great idea!
Good talk. I would think someone will allow this info to sink in and possibly save some lives.
Another very well thought out video with some huge key points. As always thanks Scott for these videos and at least getting some conversations going. Just because it's legal doesn't mean it's smart or safe has always stuck in my head..Merry Christmas to you and your family!
Thanks Kevin! I appreciate that.
Scott your right on with personal limits, just because your licensed and qualified doesn't mean you should. flying in the green is great advice staying out of the yellow and red is even better. Iv been in the yellow in a 310 and it was a roller-coaster ride for forty minutes. No fun there!
Absolutely great video again, Scott!
Scott, Merry Christmas. I don’t know how pilots fly in IMC. Recently did 200 miles in fog on the freeway. Driving in it reminded me of your “personal limits”. I finally bailed at an unknown location. Later determined to be Pixley, CA.
Less than 100 feet visibility was my limit. My rear fog lights should be mandatory on American cars, but seem to only be present on Swedish and German cars. By not having get-there-itis, I was able to survive to see another day. It still was a 21 hour trip instead of 15.
Thanks for your video content, and for the knowledge you are trying to pass on to the viewer.
By the way, love your channel. The huge fund of common sense is very beneficial to flight safety.
Very nice job and delivery. Other than aircraft specific stuff I feel like I just sat thru an R-18 brief.
Great lesson.
Thanks!
Liked the United States Army Air Corp. baseball cap Mr. Perdue was wearing 😉! Happy Holidays, hope pilot of the Cirrus surfaces in this story for a post flight debrief 😚.
Shot a Cat 3b into FRA in a L1011 It was just like the sim but had to get a follow me car to find the gate
The common sense rule for takeoff minimums is the same as approach minimums for that same airport. You might have to return to it if you have problems!
Those are my takeoff mins.
Merry Christmas
Same to you!
"Survive to fly another day"
Question,
With planes that have "Synthetic Vision" on their Garmin displays. Even if they can't see the runway outside their windows visually BUT do make out the runway on their screens.
Are they legally allowed to continue landing in low IMC conditions?
Good question and the answer is NO. Some Gulf Stream jets have a no visibility IR system certified. Even USAF FLIR systems are not certified for no-viz landings.
I can't get my head around why someone would shoot an approach to minimums but not have an IFR flight plan filed. Or go looking for the airport below MDA or DA? Too much flight simulator in their diet? Look up N84R on Kathryn's report. Scroll down to the photo of the approach end of the runway and impact point. Then take a look at his ground track. No IFR flight plan filed. I don't get it...
One question I have received a conflicting answers on. When you see the approach lights, rabbits, REIL etc. on a precision approach you can go down to 100ft. AGL before you see the runway. On a non-precision approach the runway environment cues that allow you to go to 100’ does not apply. That is what my airline taught which is the principle I always operated on and made sense to me. It seems to me that the MDA is much further from the airport so generally there’s no electronic glide path to protect you from MDA to 100’ above the runway. Do I have that right?
Sorta. A non-precision approach final Gilliss Fe ends at the MDA… so yes there is no electronic glide path.
@@FlyWirescottperdue so, in your opinion, you’re on a GPS approach non LPV and you see the approach lights at minimums but you don’t se the runway you can or can’t go to a 100’ above the runway? What do the regs say?
Scott, I hear you keep referring to the military minima in parentheses rather than the civil aircraft minima to the left. I just want to clarify so others don’t start using those numbers. Maybe that’s a habit from your fighter days or you add some conservatism since they are often rounded up.
I suspect that the Idaho accident was due to flying below MDA and in cloud by following the LNAV+V “glide path”. You will notice that the “V” is not depicted at the FAF meaning that the visual descent point (VDP) either has not been assessed or it fails the obstacle clearance requirements from the MDA to touchdown. (I am a qualified instrument procedure designer).
Great comment. I’ve got good reason to believe that she was following the company policy of using the Garmin Visual Approach Mode. Lots to do in a short time and bad viz. Steam is the same as cloud.
Scott, what is with all the corrugated metal in the background. Are you building a Ford Tri-Motor?
Nope. I’m in a rented hangar while I’m building a new place. Not much choice of decor.
How do I join this Patreon?
There is a link in the description below the video.
Love your channel. Would you be interested in analyzing this accident…N26889? I know the pilot’s girlfriend.
Scott, wasn’t the girl Caravan pilot that parishad in Idaho? Wasn’t Juan or Dan Gryder that discovered that the smoke stack was illegally build? Right in line with approach to the runway?
yes they had to move it.
I'm curious too because Dan went in-depth on that one. If I remember correctly they have had problems with the placement of those smokestacks and they also add to the restricted visibility.
@@Darkvirgo88xx you are right, it was Dan and he spend some time there and took a flight with a local pilot to retrace the approach.
@@mikercflyer7383 If I remember right what made it so tragic was she was within feet of clearing the smokestack and she was the company's top performing pilots. I'm not sure that this was actually the flight she was originally going to take she was just an eager worker.
Think Scott was highlighting the fact that the smoke from the smoke stack should also have been considered in terms of visibility requirements as the final VISUAL part of the decent. Assuming here that the smoke stack after the DA/MDA
Let's check it out, can you hear 500..... 50, 40, 30.....
Pacing is everything;)
@@FlyWirescottperdue ✈️
I just spent the last 4-5 hours straightening out bogus bills (one charged me double what I should have been paying) and fraud. Claiming anything when it's not reality is not prudent. I prefer to keep my own name. Happy Holidays. Take care.
I have seen fedex and ups pilots taking off in visibility less then 1 SM
Depends on their OpSpecs. There are carveouts for that. Training and equipment. Know thy centerline!
Would you like to do a story on a flight that I took after getting my license from STS Santa Rosa Charles Shultz Air Port to Redding and when the guy who was going down to a seminar with me in the Bay Area cancelled.
I had a hotel booked, but chose not to stay in Redding. I had passed by 2 large fires around the Clear Lake area.
I usually flew a Cherokee 140 and Dragon Fly Aviation said it was being worked on - would I like to take a Cessna 152. I only had maybe 10 hours in Cessna 172 s so said ok and was not nearly as familiar as the Cherokee 140
My father was a United Airlines pilot and so was my uncle and I had a cousin Rick Brickert who flew in the Reno Air Races and had the Red Knight.
In starting back to Santa Rosa, I called 1800 Weather Brief and they said fog would not be a factor.
I flew and notice that I never saw the big fires that I had seen a few hours earlier. I did look back at Redding as I left and thought it looked very dark back there and decided not to turn back.
I tuned into STS Tower and I could hear pilots landing and doing touch and goes. So I knew it was clear there and next thing I realized 45 minutes later was that I was out over the Pacific Ocean by about 3 miles.
Then fog started to roll in around me and I thought Hmmm fog no factor. So I headed south knowing of course ocean on the right and I would go find the mouth of the Russian River and just fly that in.
I did not have flight following. Santa Rosa tower could not hear me. I did not want to call for an Emergency or Mayday as I didn’t want to get into trouble.
The plane was a rental and was due back the next day in the afternoon.
I could hear my dad’s voice in my head saying always just believe your instruments. By now I had been in the air about a hour and a half. I had full tanks so 6 hours - but could not risk getting stuck in the clouds or stuck on top.
I was at 8,000 feet to stay clear of any terrain. And I was being washed over by the fog that was really there. I saw a rotating beacon and I did not know where it was exactly, but I knew I was not going to lose sight of that airport. I wanted to turn on the runway lights, but didn’t have the frequency. The moon was full as I remember. I flew a box pattern over the rotating beacon trying to get the alignment of the runway and figured staying within a half mile over the beacon - I will not hit any terrain or trees.
I did not let that beacon go even if it was only a strobing haze below me. I looked for a hole in the clouds and came down from 8,000 feet 4 different times and each time fog would just cover over the airport all the way up to me. While at 5,000 feet and still flying a box pattern I saw a hole and had the runway alignment in relation to the rotating beacon. Then, the runway lights turned on. I knew from my night training that they can be turned on if you have the frequency and keying the mic 5 times and even turn them off. I stayed at my altitude of 5,000 and held knowing someone was coming in to land.
Then I wondered - what if he turns the runway lights off. I had to get down. I waited for the plane to come into view and it landed and cleared the runway to the taxi way. I still did not know the name of the airport or frequency to operate the lights or call my position. After the twin engine plane cleared the runway. I was keeping the tight box pattern and dove to the ground and was landing by losing altitude only above the field as I still did not want to hit trees or terrain. In that tight box pattern - that tactic kept me over the field and I was on the ground in 2 - 3 minutes. I was never so happy.
I owned an auto repair shop and really needed to open the shop the next day. I said hell with that. The mechanics can open up without me. I taxied over off the runway and like a deep Cotswold fog I still did not know the name of the airfield. I saw where a couple of other single engines were tied down and I could just make out a building and wondered where the twin engine plane went. There were no hangers.
Then I saw the twin engine plane. Here it was only 3 minutes after he had landed and the plane was tied down and there were no cars or trucks near the plane and no one was there. I thought that plane saved the day for me and I wanted to thank them. But there was no one there. As I walked in the fog to the building it said on the front. Little River Mendocino.
No hotels would come pick me up from the little town of Mendocino. I called maybe 30 of them. So finally I called my dad and he drove out to pick me up.
I did not have the nerve to go touch the cowling of the twin as I thought God was really looking out for me this night.
A year later, on the same day of the month, I made myself do the exact same flight again after taking some IFR ground school.
I learned that STS the VOR I was flying to was a LOW LEVEL VOR. I must have missed that in ground school. The signal was only good for 25 - 30 miles. I should have been tuned into a HIGH ALTITUDE VOR and flown on that radial. I was blown North off course by 50 miles and ended up over the Pacific Ocean and only noticed that it was dark now and I saw the moon light on the ocean and knew I was in trouble. Since the 2 major fires around Clear Lake were check points for me and I totally missed them, I knew I was not on course to make Santa Rosa Airport where the Tower is not manned after 8 PM. Those pilots I was listening to were just calling out their positions on a now uncontrolled field.
I did not want to call 121.5 as I knew they would not be happy with me.
My one experience with a big tower was San Jose on my long cross-country and while talking to them I said STUDENT PILOT Cherokee 1746T tango and they told me amongst all the big commercial aircraft.
Cherokee do you see those hills below you I said yes. The San Jose tower said don’t come any closer and keep clear of their airspace and keep heading South.
So that was in my mind to have to talk to what I thought would be San Francisco airport. I saw that Lo and Hi were not marked on the Sectionals for us mere mortals that fly VFR. Those were only marked on High Altitude Sectionals.
A few years after the incident, I wrote in the little confessional to NASA - you know - the back of the Federal Aviation Regulations and suggested that Lo and Hi be spelled out clearly on the Sectionals.
I totally did not realize that I was getting a false reading on my VOR even though I was tuned to the STS VOR on the field and maybe the mountains of Mendocino were blocking the signal of the near sea level STS Charles M. Shultz airport.
If this sounds of interest to pass on to or even a video - that is the story.
I went and fueled up in the morning, clear skies. There was an airport manager who lived at the Little River, Mendocino Air Port. The rotating beacon that saved me was on top of a telephone pole. There were a lot of tall pine trees around the airport. The manager said “ you sure were flying around up there for a long time “ I wanted to tell him it would of helped if you turned the runway lights on if you heard me.
I didn’t tell him much more than that.
I made a special trip in to my Lutheran church and said Thanks God for saving me stayed a little while and left since it was a weekday.
Went back to my shop and carried on with my life. Took the IFR ground school and learn just what I did wrong. Then made myself do the same flight again. Same take off time a year later.
That went fine. Hit my check points and dove down over Cloverdale with plenty of daylight to spare.
Thank you for letting me share this story.