One more Twin Spin Video, OR "Discover the Untold Secrets of the Ultimate Twin Spin Video"
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 8 ก.พ. 2024
- One More Twin Spin Video, OR "Discover the Untold Secrets of the Ultimate Twin Spin Video" This last is thanks to AI's suggestion. substance-- NO, Clickable- I guess.....
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FlyWire is about exploring flight and the freedom this incredible experience brings us on a personal level. Flying has always captured the imagination and excitement of living life to its fullest. Hi, I'm Scott Perdue. In a former life I flew the F-4 and F-15E, more recently I retired from a major airline. I've written for several aviation magazines over the years, was a consultant for RAND, the USAF, Navy, NASA as well as few others, wrote a military thriller- 'Pale Moon Rising' (still on Kindle). But mostly I like flying, or teaching flying. Some of the most fun I had was with Tom Gresham on a TV show called 'Wings to Adventure". We flew lots of different airplanes all over the country. Now with FlyWire I want to showcase the fun in flying, share the joy and freedom of flight and explore the world with you. Make sure you subscribe if you want to go along for the ride!
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Scott, I worked at Beech in Experimental Flight Test while this program was being conducted. While I was not on this program myself, I daily observed it and discussed it with the engineers and test pilots involved (in the original film on TH-cam I recognized many people I knew). While I am remembering back 45 years and the memory isn't what it used to be, a few pertinent things I remember:
1. The test program was driven by the requirement to recover in 2 turns or less from a 6-turn spin from standard and aggravated entries.
2. Opposite aileron during the entry was a carryover from the required spin entry technique for the model 77 Skipper. If aileron is not used on a Skipper, standard entry technique results in a steep spiral, not a spin.
3. Standard recovery technique (power idle, ailerons neutral, rudder against the spin and aft stick until rotation stops) was positive but borderline on recovering from the fully-developed spin in the required 2 turns. I recall it taking between 2 and 2 1/4 turns, but my memory is a little foggy on that - I do remember it hovering around 2 turns give or take. CG position may have been a player. NASA recommended trying aileron with the spin to recover in addition to the standard technique. It made the aircraft recover about 1/4 turn faster, which would have satisfied the requirement.
I was taking my own multiengine training in a Dutchess about the time this program was finishing, and it was very comforting to me to know that the Dutchess would respond to standard spin prevent and standard spin recovery techniques and would not enter a locked-in flat spin - at least NASA and Beech Flight Test could not find a flat spin mode.
Thanks for the input Tom. Great stuff!
Thanks, Tom. Really interesting. But did you mean forward stick instead of aft stick for spin recovery? And does the NASA recommendation for "aileron with the spin" mean moving the stick towards the spin or away from the spin?
Do not have an AFT CG.
@@igclapp Aft stick until the rotation stops THEN forward stick to break the stall. Aileron goes in the "cross-control" direction, i.e., if you are in a right spin use left rudder and right aileron. Standard technique for jet fighters of the F-100 - F-4 vintage.
@@flybouy11 Not sure what you mean by that. I mention it because as cg moves aft it is common for spins to get flatter and recoveries to take longer.
Thanks for Posting!
That spin at 2:44 was really disturbing. That is usually the last moments that pilot will see in his life! Really appreciate the comments that say that the best thing is NOT to get into the position of flying craft into a perilous state.
The more I learn about spins in light twins, the better a Cessna 337 looks to me.
That is a great aircraft. Have hundreds of hours low level forestry patrol in the 337. Juts don't raise the gear on an EFATO and make sure you advance the rear engine first for take off.. or you won't notice if it stops when hot.
The 337, with the engines on each end of the fuselage, has the same rotational moment of inertia problem as a twin with engines on the wings. The problem is heavy things far from the CG in any direction.
@@sstearns2 I think he was referring to the lack of asymmetric thrust with a failed engine i.e. that particular mode of entering a spin that plagues twins won't occur in the first place.
Iam lucky enough to be a fairly experienced pilot after 40 plus years and some 14,000 hours in many different airplanes. One thing I know for sure is than when things go to hell in a single its bad, but when things go to hell in a twin its really bad👍
These presentations are first-rate, Scott.
I always look forward to them.
My hope is that these videos scare pilots into keeping their twins far away from the spin region. Even a 172 can lose a thousand feet in a spin before recovery...which is a good reason to teach spins in a Skyhawk. I mean, if a Skyhawk loses that much altitude, their twin is basically a lawn dart in comparison. I think it might be an effective eye opener. Edit to say, thanks for sharing.
Thanks for the excellent points Scott! What your relate about moments of inertia, pro-spin inputs and differences in aircraft such as T-Tail designs, is something that while a focus of attention in GA during the 80's seems to have dissipated from the flying consciousness and sorely needs to be brought fourth.
What you relate helps to make sense of of personal near fatal experiences in twins, one of which I shared in the comments of one of your previous tuffted F33 spin videos, about a Bi-Annual Flight Review I had in a B55 involving a high-time CFI-MEI with zero time in Barons, who insisted on me demonstrating a VMC recovery, where my the heel of my right food became restricted by the sheet-metal cover below the rudders pedals and I was unable to add full rudder deflection, and the CFI abruptly stomping full right rudder with his #12 causing an abrupt yaw and what we later deemed to be loss of airflow over the vertical stab that ended up in an inverted roll and spin that without both of us having aerobatic training, we likely would not have recovered from.
From a higher altitude we explored abrupt rudder inputs near VMC and found what appeared to be the ability to induce a sudden loss of rudder control with large rudder inputs and lateral inertial moment coupling. We later cautiously tried the same near VMC rapid rudder inputs In his straight tail Cessna C-310 which I sold to him (N666T) and observed no such tendency as the B55, and we speculated that the taller straight V-Stab on the 310 combined with the huge inertial mass of the 310's tip tanks and less tapered wing might have reduced what the Baron exhibited, however we speculated that the larger lateral inertial moment of those 310 tip tanks might make actual spin recovery in the 310 less likely then the B55.
What you relate Scott about a "Thin triangle" of the B55's rudder being all you have available for spin recovery against a huge amount of inertial moment might also have something to do with what we observed in the B55 vs. the 310.
The only other twin-spin experience I inadvertently encountered relates strongly to what you point out about inertial moments, pro-spin inputs and deep stalls, in an early (5th production Ser#) Cessna 337, on a sales-demo flight where I allowed an ATP to fly from the left seat who wanted to explore stalls, and he did so unaware he had left about 60% power on the rear engine, which being in a pusher configuration produced some right yaw (ball to the right), at which point I said: "You better step on that ball before you stall this thing". At which point he applied a lot of right rudder and hogged back on the yoke, and as the right wing dropped he applied full left-aileron, and then full up-elevator, and with full right rudder and left aileron applied,froze solid on the controls and throttles as we rolled inverted and his 300lb ATP buddy in the back who removed is seat belt after takeoff fell against the headliner yelling and kicking me in the back of the head.
I manage to wrestle the controls away and recover into a vertical dive (I observed that at in a vertical dive the 337 produces enough drag to not accelerate very fast after about 230mph indicated) and was barely able to recover after catching a couple of accelerated stalls just above treetop level from what started about 4500agl.
Everything Scott, you explain about inertial moments, pro-spin inputs and deep stalls we learned and survived in the 337 that day. The 337 has two heavy engines, at each end of the fuselage creating a very centered CG, and a long wing with 120 to 140 gals of span-wise fuel, and a huge elevator that can produce a very deep stall and some thrilling if not fatal stall-spin adventures .
Later, when I bought a Twin-Comanche, I enlisted Carl, a CFI-MEI who had done some FAA re-certification flight tests for the Twin-Comanche that resulted in major increase to the Twin-Comanche's VMC and operational changes, had also done some spin testing as a certification test pilot, and what he impressed was to maintain keen Yaw awareness, and how lowering angle of attack on first detection of yaw deviation can be your quickest and most effective spin and VMC loss of control defense.
In a Mooney and later in a single engine Comanchen 250, I was using to practice for the ATP (As I didn't have a twin at the time), Carl simulated VMC recovery in a single by setting up power-on approach to stalls in a cross-controlled condition, thereby practicing, recognizing and recovering from yaw deviation by lowering the nose and reducing power to stop the yaw divergence. I found that training a big awareness booster, and from then on strove to maintain acute awareness of yaw deviations and preventing them before they result in loss of control. That awareness is something that can be developed in single engine aircraft that can translate into twin engine survival as well.
I may have mentioned previously Scott, that if awareness, recognition and avoidance of stall-spin/VMC loss of control should be more strongly emphasized in addition to recovery awareness and practice to as back in the 80's to address a rash of Twin-spin incidents.
Great input Jack!
Great reply!
@@gonflying Thanks! like your channel👍👍MD500, my favorite flying single-engine aircraft.
Well done! I like that "pro-spin" analysis of control inputs. Most things you can do encourage the spin. Very sensible. As a side note, back in the late 1980's and through the 1990's I used to place 20 or so tell-tales with tape and yarn on the left wing during instructional flights to demonstrate the breakdown of airflow from the root out to the tip. Nothing like seeing the airflow breaking down.
Excellent!
When I was flying the Yak52 I took the time to fly down to Halfpenny Green (UK) not far from my base airfield to get flat spin recovery training with Yak 52 aerobatic exponent Gennedy Elfimof (Mr. Yak).
It was a privilege to fly with him and we did several flat spins and recoveries in our Yak52.
It was quite a few years ago but I remember spin entry was as for a normal spin but power on and out-spin aileron. The sensation of the world spinning horizontally around us took some getting used to.
Recovery was [power off, in spin aileron, out spin rudder, full forward stick ALL APPLIED AT THE SAME TIME] until the spin stopped.
So the stick was pushed hard into the relevant top corner, left top corner or right top corner, with opposite rudder, as the power was pulled right back.
Then centralise and recover from the dive.
(Caveat - this isn't flight instruction - consult your flight instructor for that)
Vince
So to be clear, you're saying in a spin to the left, recovery is, full right rudder, stick full forward and left?
@@gonflying Correct - in-spin aileron.
Just came across your website. Excited to find a civilian doing this. I’m ex military so obviously we were always addressing spins. My son is almost done with his commercial and it’s just amazing how little the FAA is concerned with spin training.I was a T2C spin instructor in the Navy and we practiced upright/inverted spin recoveries for students going thru ACM training
All these videos on light twins tell me one thing and one thing only, light twins are the most dangerous airplane one can fly. If you lose an engine in a critical phase of flight your reflexes better be on point to get the nose down and crash straight ahead otherwise you have no chance, not to mention how dangerous training is in these airplanes where one mistake can easily kill you. Not even sure I want the ME rating anymore, I rather have that one engine and a crappy glider if it quits than illusions of maybe being able to keep flying and trap myself due to a small mistake.
I liked flying the Cessna 337 for that reason among others. Great everything airplane that won't try to kill you the minute something goes wrong.
Totally agree - all these twin accidents have taught me to take spins very seriously. And to ensure you have a lot of confidence in your instructor.
@rupertthebear5346 And yet people training in DA42s are killing themselves left and right.
Thanks Scott, as my late uncle taught me when we flew together, don't get intona spin in the first place. He drove Thuds in Vietnam and had a 150 & 310.
Even a Thud driver wouldn't spin a 310!
Hi Scott. I was on that chat and learned a lot even though I am not even flying right now. I was the one near the end that asked what is the best altitude to do a VMCa Demo and Juan was like, "As high as you can be." He's right. But then again, you have differently aspirated engines. He chuckled. I love you guys' channels even though I am not a currently related pilot, but rather a journalist who is always on the lookout for air crashes.
Check out Max Trescott's video on twin spins - it seems that as you get higher, the blue line and the stall speed get closer, so higher is not always better, as unintuitive as that sounds.
I'm 75, not a pilot. I arrived here because of Juan Brown. Thank you sir. USN 68-74, ETR-2, maintained GCA RADAR and TACAN at NAS Miramar, 70-74. Just interested, and saddened, by so much loss of these kids
44 glad to have you. Thanks for watching!
From a 172 guy, I'll just take your word for fact and let someone else try that stuff. Remember folks, it's supposed to be fun and fairly safe at the same time.😊
Single engine recip is fun, multi-engine? Have your fun after you're on the ground.
Aileron into the spin? Never use ailerons in spin recovery.
The airplane was specifically well-built Beachcraft Dutches that was tested with careful knowledgeable parameters of its CG and with an added tailspin recovery tail placed drag chute and 'TEST PILOT' with a quick release door and with his own parachute in case of out-of-control flat or inverted flat spin...
Stress free
@@erickborling1302 This is not strictly true. Some aircraft can recover from a spin with ailerons, EXTRA-330SC comes to mind.
I remember stalls in the Piper PA38-112 Traumahawk, which is a T tail. Was my first experience in a low wing when I was working on my ppl.
I agree, that training for spin prevention is best practice and if you own any plane, especially a twin you should never get close to the spin with a loss of engine because you have trained for it. However, if you ever do get into a spin in a twin, your spin-prevent training will not do a damn thing for you. At that point, if you have not trained for spin recovery in a twin you are dead. you don't have to spin your pane to train for it. you can sit on the ground and go through the motions over and over and over. If you don't know what to do once the spin you trained so hard to prevent starts you have nothing. Spin prevention is best practice but spin recovery is also best practice. When you get into a bad situation that you have trained to stay away from, this is called an accident, at this point just like a race car driver once the spin starts if not trained to recover your odds are very low.
If your altitude is less than what your aircraft uses up in a spin recovery, the ground will get in the way.
G'day Scott,
Thanks for posting this...; between you and Juan & Dan my awareness of what a dicey pastime it is to be going anywhere near Spinning in a Twin..., has been greatly enhanced.
My impression now is that allowing an Incipient Spin in a Twin to develop much past 10% of the way towards being an actually Established Spin...; is akin to allowing a Sailplane to develop much more than 5° of Yaw, while rolling-out after Touchdown - because if one reaches 10° - then there isn't enough remaining Rudder Authority available, to be able to prevent the Centre of Mass from attempting to swap-ends with the Point of Main Friction (the single Centre-Line Mainwheel)..., thus
Making a Groundloop absolutely
Unavoidable, & incontrovertible.
Just(ifiably ?)...,
Do NOT
Go there....
Not once, not
Ever.
Such is life,
Have a good one...
Stay safe.
;-p
Ciao !
I agree with you sir, far better to prevent it in the first place. Enjoy your videos and my shirt arrived yesterday.
Awesome. Thanks for that! Now I won’t be the only one;)
I had the same designated examiner do all my multi license test.
This crazy bastard would intentionally stomp the rudder during a stall on a Seminole because (in his words)
“I want it to scare you and take you by surprise”. He even convinced the instructor at the school that he should be training us like that as well.
I asked multiple times if this was safe and why we were doing it if the FAA did not state it as a standard.
Of course he was almost 70 yo so you can imagine how that conversation went.
In Canada we lean spin entry and recovery for our CPL training. was one of my favourite things to teach back in the day.
Good discussion Scott. Imo the recent multi engine spins from VMC demos should have the FAA rewrite the ACS to delete the requirement for full rudder in the demo. Commonly the instructor or examiner in the right seat guards the rudders with their feet which is the safe thing to do but if the ACS made this technique a requirement safety would be enhanced. Seems to me half rudder travel is enough during the demo it still proves the point to the student.
Thank goodness that they actually did the Spin Test program... Yes, thank you, Beechcraft... They are the ones who put together a well-built twin-engine Dutches for the program as well as a test pilot, with data recorders to advance our understanding of twin-engine aircraft Stall, Spin, and Recovery... Watched it many times over to understand Stall Spin and the Dreaded twin engine Stall and Spin, while grappling with the idea of Blue line and rudder authority/ability and the excess rollover forces of the dead engine wing side...
This sounds on radius of gyration. If you spin 10 pounds at 1 foot moment arm, it's going to take more counter torque to stop a 10 pound weight at 2 feet. I can see where the rudder has a fixed moment arm and torque potential and with large weights either on the wing or on the fuselage center line outside the spin axis they can combine....fuselage and wing mass elements and "over power" the authority of the rudder, and or severely limit (slow down) any ability to arrest the rotation about the Z axis. I love you videos on this stuff. Thx.
Excellent Scott!
Spin recovery IMHO, should begin in private pilot training . Spin recognition & cause should be part of the syllabus. I can't imagine what i would have thought if I had inadvertently entered a spin with no instruction. I just happened to have some some instructions from the great Artie Scholl, while a private pilot.
Another excellent video. Thank you!
A lot of valuable information thank you for the discussions
Remember, smooth moves on the rudder pedals.
It is bad to violently slam the pedals hard against the stops as some of the welds or rudder linkages or ruddern horn parts can break.
One of the worst cases that I can think of is the AA A300 that was on the climb-out from La Guardia and encountered strong wake turbulence.
The FO slammed the rudder pedals so hard in either direction that the fin and rudder departed and doomed the big bird.
So, smooth moves on those rudder pedals.
And it was his mistake to walk the rudder, don't know where he got that but it wasn't in training at AA!
Not complicated when you do it, Scott!
Great video...👍
Awesome video!
Thanks Scott!
spins are super fun, as long as youre not too low. recovery from a stall spin landing type scenario, as well as a fully developed flat spin, should be taught before a new pilot first solos....
I did lots of spins in both private and commercial training in Canada. That was in C-150 and C-172 . Did the Vmca demos in the Beech Travelair.
I can't imagine not having that training.
With radio controlled model airplanes, I typically spin them using full rudder deflection, full up elevator, and neutral ailerons. To change the spin to a flat spin, I add power and move the aileron stick in the opposite direction to the rudder. To exit the flat spin, I move the aileron stick in the same direction as the rudder which makes the plane go from looking like a falling maple seed to a combination of autorotating and rolling. Neutralizing the elevator lowers the nose, allows opposite rudder to stop the autorotation, and the plane enters a rolling dive until the ailerons are neutralized. Then, up elevator is applied to pull out of the dive.
Sure seems like we could learn a lot from RC model aircraft - I'm surprised we don't do more of this testing and training using RC models.
I think Scott mentioned wind tunnel testing of models. My limited understanding is that it is while it can give you a crude idea, it is difficult to transpose the aerodynamic RNo forces. Sort of why scaling a bee up makes it a land critter.
@@spdaltidVertical wind tunnel a la indoor sky diving. Yes, the Reynolds numbers are different, but the principles are the same. In the mid-1970's, engineers and RC modelers at NASA used 1/40-scale RC models to help prove that the Space Shuttle could be carried and launched from a Boeing 747. The models were on display in the 747 SCA at NASA's Houston Space Center when I visited it in 2018.
Actually Beechcraft did that with the Duchess.
RC simulators such as RealFlight and FlightSimOne are pretty effective and inexpensive. As is XPlane.
I recently learned to fly in a T tail Piper Tomahawk…never spun it but did loads of power on and power off stalls. Now I only fly a Cherokee…sooo well behaved.
The PA38 does nice spins,
Perhaps I'm missing something. Is there an article or something written that clearly lays out what Beech did to recover the Duchess? The video titled "Twin Spin Testing Beechcraft Twin Video" says nothing about what you are talking about. They kept pro spin controls applied until they wanted to recover. That includes FULL AFT stick or elevator up which normally, at least in GA airplanes that is a pro spin input. They also said that they recovered using standard spin recovery techniques which is power idle, alerions neutral, rudder in the opposite direction of the spin, and FORWARD stick to break the stall (if needed). I feel like there is at best missing context and at worst incorrect information.
Y o u are wrong about that. I preach full aft elevator and show that in my videos. It is not a recovery step it is a stabilizing step. I talked in this video about what they did. Sorry you missed it.
Go get a copy of Aerodynamics for Naval Aviators, turn to page 311 and read the right hand column. The stuff you think you know is wrong.
The spin recovery of the modern high speed
airplane involves principles which are similar
to those of the spin recovery of the conventional airplane. However, the nature of the
spin for the modern configuration may involve
specific differences in technique necessary to
reduce the sideslip and angle of attack. The
use of opposite rudder to control the sideslip
and effect recovery will depend on the effectiveness of the rudder when the airplane is in the
spin. At high positive angles of attack and
high sideslip the rudder effectiveness may be
reduced and additional anti-spin moments must
be provided for rapid recovery. The deflection
of ailerons into the spin reduces the autorotation rolling moment and can produce adverse
yaw to aid the rudder yawing moment in
effecting recovery.
There may be many other specific differences
in the technique necessary to effect spin recovery . The effectiveness of the rudder during
recovery may be altered by the position of
elevators or horizontal tail. Generally, full
aft stick may be necessary during the initial
phase of recovery to increase the effectiveness
of the rudder. The use of power during the
spin recovery of a propeller powered airplane
may or may not aid recovery depending on the
specific airplane and the particular nature of
the slipstream effects. The use of power during
the spin recovery of a jet powered airplane
induces no significant or helpful flow but does
offer the possibility of a severe compressor
stall and adverse gyroscopic moments. Since
the airplane is at high angle of attack and
sideslip, the flow at the inlet may be very
poor and the staI1 limits considerably reduced.
These items serve to point out possible differences in technique required for various configurations. The spin recovery specific for each airplane is outlined in the pilot’s handbook and it is imperative that the specific technique be followed for successful recovery.
My fellow brother in aviation the book is talking about swept wing aircraft. Not hershey bar winged twins.
Also I think that last line is important as well.
This was found on page 311 in
AERODYNAMICS FOR NAVAL AVIATORS
BY
H. H. HURT, JR.
UNIVERSITY OF SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA
(For those curious your tax money paid for it and it's free)
@@FlyWirescottperdue
@@garrettferguson449 You are welcome to your own opinion, but not your own facts. Your assumption is wrong about swept wing aircraft. Congrats on reading a few paragraphs, there is education in reading the rest of the book. Try it you'll realize that the authors are more thorough then you give them credit for.
Great video....
I flew and liked the Duchess, but had no intention of going anywhere near a spin.
Something else Scott, I just recalled that might be worth mentioning from the 80's twin-spin era, was an article in Flying, AOPA Pilot or the old Aviation Consumer magazines, was a story a civilian CFI and former military test pilot related about getting into a spin, I seem to recall in a Baron or possibly Aerostar or Seminole that was not responding to recovery inputs after several turns, as a last ditch effort he was instructed in the military to apply alternate elevator up and down applications on nose up and down points of the spin, and was able to recover into a vertical dive and recover, but I've forgotten at which points he applied the inputs and details of the effects and why. Perhaps that might be something to cover.
I think I just did... in this video.
@@FlyWirescottperdue Yes you did, and perhaps I should have been more clear, I was thinking more in terms of going a bit more in-depth as to physics and recovery tactics for those who might end up in an inadvertent test-pilot spin situation, to really understand what, when and why to they might consider applying a last ditch test pilot (Hail-Mary) defense.
@@jackoneil3933 Intentional PIO, taking bigger and bigger swings until it breaks free from where it's stuck, right? A bit like rocking a car back and forth to get it out of the mud. That's actually quite clever. I've often wondered if lowering the landing gear could also help get the nose down.
@@brandyballoon Yes, but I seem to recall the inputs he described applying might have been counter-intuitive at first.
I had a spin experience in a Baron that was more a loss of vert-stab rather than stalled spin, and also an inverted spin an ATP put a Cessna 337 I was demoing into (described here) and after that I also wondered if extending the gear and flaps would help in spin recovery and my hunch is that the extra drag of nose gear and doors alone should counter a bit yaw moment, plus give a bit of nose-down moment, and help reduce acceleration in a vertical dive during recovery.
I would think the same for flaps except it would lower your structural limits which could be an issue in a high-speed dive recovery, but if it had a chance of helping recover from a spin I'd be inclined to drop the flaps and gear as a Hail-Mary. One might have to be mentally prepared to do that.
One thing I discussed with a couple of test pilots, was use of asymmetric thrust on the in-spin engine, one said it would likely increase the spin rate or flip you inverted, the other who had done spin testing in twins said that asymmetric thrust might be something he would try if all else failed, but as most spins, epically in twins happen a few hundred feet above the ground that it's best to train and be mentally prepared to avoid a spin the first place.
When it says spins prohibited there is a reason for it.
Prevent all day long. Any twin, light or heavy you need to be on your game, it has been said many times a twin can if mis handled get you to the scene of the crash very quickly.
in my cessna 152 private training once in spin full power nose down oposite rudder. but i never let it go passed a full spin. my instructor finally resorted to the float a quarter and we spent the afternoon floating a quarter and laughing a lot. Watching this freaks me out! Thanks
Full power? We cut the power when I did spins in the 152.
The C-150/152 has some unusual stall/spin characteristics. This is not the first time I've heard of the use of Full Power during a spin recovery. In general, any power above idle, is a Pro-Spin input and is in fact how you initiate a flat spin.
you are right Scott. Thinking about it I realized I did not alter the power
Required watching for any multi-engine rating applicant and multi-engine recurrent training!
Keep feet on ground no spin recovery required.
I’ve tried flying on the ground. Not nearly as much fun.
Very funny thanks for the video.@@FlyWirescottperdue
Assuming one is completely sober. Otherwise…😂
My armchair flies just fine.🙂
Looking forward to your presentation at the beech bash . Where can I go to fly with you? I have a debonair and really want to do some upset training
We’ll have to figure that out. I just seem to get busier.
I have flown with instructors that absolutely panic and others that sit there and say nothing . I seek out calm an approach , as pilots keeping a cool head in stressful situations can be all the difference . I saw a video of you doing some spin training with a young lady and your just sitting while the airplane was spinning out of the sky you were just calmly giving instructions . That’s who I want to fly with. Not a guy that won’t fly to an un- towered airport because he’s scared without having ATC control .
While learning aerobatics if found that if a flat spin is developed the best way to get out of it (for the aircraft I was flying) was to turn into the rotation and turn that flat spin into a traditional spin. The nose down movement helps stop the inertia and helps it work for you instead of trying to stop the inertia.
Turn into the spin how? With ailerons?
Whoa... That flat spin then dive would have really freaked me out. I think I am going to go the same route as Bryan Turner and Dan Millican over at KGPM and get my Commercial and multi in a week.
I’m confused. Do they teach recovering from flat spins as part of the commercial in that week?
You could probably break the flat spin of most planes by deploying a drogue chute from the tail section so that the plane starts diving vertical, then detatch the chute for flight-control recovery. Of course it would probably only be an option from the factory where you could get a full airframe chute anyway, making it kind of pointless.
Scott mentioned the recovery chute deployment during flight testing.
I would spin Tomahawk. One day it didn't want to recover. It did as the poh warned, go rapid nose down rotation, but kept going and going.
At what point do you try something else.
Logic i applied whilst spinning was go back to pro spin, to flatten the spin.
Once i did that, went recovery and it came straight out, at 1500 feet.
I have not spun one since.
Good thinking!
In the prowler they gave us a switch to get more elevator pull in the spin. It was important to get air back over the rudder. They also gave us a yaw rate indicator. If you waited until rotation stopped, to neutralize rudder and stick forward, it was too late, it'd flop to the other direction. Someone should do a vid on prowler spinning.
Prowler, not familiar with what airplane that is.
Has there been any discussions on eliminating Vmc demos in actual GA aircraft?
Thinking about primary instruction 35 years ago when I was teaching in the C-310, I did get into a stall prior to yaw in a VMC demo once. As the airplane started to roll 90° I maintained full rudder pushed the yoke full forward and closed the throttle. We recovered in a vertical dive and then smoothly recovered from that. We were at 5000’ on a warm spring morning and apparently the chart lied about where the stall/VMC line came together. Very dangerous situation we are putting all our kids through to get them trained. I think we need to ensure the operating engine is at full power and block the rudder with your foot so you get the yaw early for the demo recovery. That way you don’t get slow enough to stall before the yaw. Let me know what you think.
Sounds like you did a Spin Prevent and lived to tell the tale. Good on Ya! The Vmc decreases with altitude... one problem you had. That being said I'm not a fan of doing them low, you need altitude to survive!
@@FlyWirescottperdue Thanks Scott. 30,000 hours later and an unbelievable amount of 6 month checks with so many V1 cuts, I think we need to rethink our primary training for our young new pilots. We should probably stop this kind of training in airplanes and do it in simulators. I just tried a VMC demonstration in the 320 sim and it’s an eye opener even in a fly by wire airplane. You definitely don’t want to explore that part of the envelope.
@@grumpy3543 I agree. It seems counter-intuitive to me. It's all very well spinning a plane that's rated for spins in order to teach spin recovery, but intentionally taking a plane that may not even be able to recover from a spin very close to entering a spin seems like a good way to get a Darwin award. Also, most if not all of the recent accidents have had passengers in the back seats. An aft CG makes spin recovery harder, if not impossible. Perhaps if this kind of training does continue, it should at least be prohibited to have passengers.
I took an aerobatics course in a CAP-10. To enter a FLAT spin from a normal left spin we raised the left wing with right aileron and added power to raise the nose. It would spin flat like a frisbee. Adding or reducing power would speed up or slow down the spin rate. To return to a normal spin it was the opposite. Left aileron to lower the wing and reduce power to idle to lower the nose. Fortunately the CAP-10 has a giant rudder. So would doing the same thing in a spinning twin be helpful, aileron into the spin whether it was flat or not?
Watch the video... and recovery depends on having something to stop the auto-rotational moment. The Baron lacks that. The Duchess, with the right protocol does. BUT NOT WELL ENOUGH FOR BEECH TO SAY IT IS CAPABLE OF SPINNING.
The CAP-10 not only has a large rudder, but a lot of rudder area below and behind the horizontal stabilizer.
In the video I talk about In-Spin aileron. You cannot recover from a flat spin without reducing the pro-spin inputs... power, out-spin aileron, forward stick. Bug rudders are nice, the engineers that designed the Cap 10 did a good job of understanding the requirements.
Best advice, in any multi engine aircraft, avoid getting into a spin, even in a single an incipient one is enough.
I think the these VMC spin accidents have all been with an observer in the backseat. That’s a big no no for spin recovery.
Not all, but that is a danger!
Recover with asymmetric thrust and then you become a superhero
Let us know how that test program works out. It works in the F-15E with Centerline thrust. No mass moments on the wing like a Light Twin.
@@FlyWirescottperdue With the reach and arm of the light twin engine on the wing you would have a great effect to counter the rotation.
@@Themheals In the video "Twin Spin Testing Beechcraft Twin Video" they actually mention it for a brief moment and they claim it had little to no affect :(
I agree, try spin awareness first.
Thanks!
Thanks Michael!
You stated aft elevator to recover from a spin at 1:12 and again several times later. This will keep you in the spin. The Video of the Duchess showing up elevator (AFT as you say) is used to develop the spin. This is why the recovery inputs state full down (forward stick) elevator. You should clarify before you kill someone thinking they need aft elevator to recover.
You are absolutely wrong.
Regarding the 3K to recover from spin then add altitude loss for dive recovery, Sammy Mason has an interesting point, as low as survivability is in a flat spin, you may want to drive it flat if you cannot get out, as this is slower and more survivable than steep. In the case of the wing loaded aircraft, outside pro-spin power, pro-spin yaw, stick aft, and aileron into the spin will help drive it flat.
Stick forward is how you make it flat. I don’t know of anyone who has survived a flat spin impact. Do you? A good friend died in a flat spin.
@@FlyWirescottperdue forward stick accelerates (ice skater), it only flattens should this acceleration provide sufficient centrifugal that aero cannot hold it. Meanwhile, forward stick will have differing effects to roll and yaw depending on wing or fuselage dominant loading. In some platforms, forward stick could push you through from erect to inverted. If you’re going to hit, would you rather hit faster? “Do I know…” is anecdotal hence logical fallacy in the argument. As for Sammy, he was a Lockheed test pilot, I think I’ll give his view some credit.
@@jimallen8186 You've lost me Jim. At this juncture, just what was your point? Forward stick is pro-spin and if you want to stabilize an inverted spin or make it inverted, push the stick forward to the stop. Throwing crap out there like 'logical fallacy' cracks me up. Nice try.
@@FlyWirescottperdue forward stick is pro-spin if you’re fuselage loaded; it is anti-spin if you’re wing loaded.
@@jimallen8186 Marginally this is true. But NOT enough to recover from the spin without rudder.
Don’t let it start spinning
Exactly right!
Forgive me for this dumb question, I am merely an aviation meteorologist. What impact would lowering the gear have on the spin? In my Piper Arrow, it causes a strong nose up attitude adjustment. Would that have an impact on the spin?
That's a really good question - at first glance it sure seems like it could help in a spin due to the anti-spin drag, particularly with the nose wheel, but it also moves some mass out with most aircraft, so that might be pro-spin. Then again, you've seen ice skaters that spin slower when moving mass out - like their arms. It would be interesting to know if the manufacturers have tested this.
Not to my knowledge.
Exactly what the reaction would be actually depends on the gear design and the airplane. Without a spin recovery chute, I won't try it.
Scott - I totally believe everything you're saying so I'm not disputing anything. But my brain is having a hard time getting over some obstacles. Let's look at electrical power as an example. 12 volts and 10 amps = 120 watts. Likewise 120 volts and 1 amp = the same 120 watts. Energy is energy. Now let's apply that to an Olympic skater. The Olympic skater starts her final closing spiral with her arms held out and a relative slow rate of turns. Then she brings her arms in and the rotation speed increases giving her a rather impressive ending to the routine {and the crowd cheers LOL}. So the point is, since energy is neither created nor destroyed, it only changes form, her energy quantity should be the same just like in watts = amps X voltage in electricity. So now let's apply this to a spinning airplane. If the engines are on the wings, YES there's 2 each mass moments to deal with - HOWEVER the engines are attached to the aircraft just like a skater's arms are attached to her body. Since energy is energy, I'm having a hard time figuring out why it's more difficult to stop the airplane from spinning simply because the engines are on the wings. Wouldn't that result in a slower spin RATE just like the figure skater ?? Tell me what I'm missing - PLEASE. Thanks Scott !!
What you are talking about is called Conservation of Momentum. A skater spins about an axis that is coincident with the body, so we see the rotation purely in one axiss. An airplane with large mass moments in the wings has an axis through the airplane, and a spin axis and then another axis outside the airplane (it descends in a helical pattern, in the earth's frame of reference). This means that mass moments couple... instead of a reaction in one axis, you have reactions in two or more and that results in wild, unpredictable gyrations. The Auto Rotation Moment is what needs to be stopped. In an airplane with mass moments, removed from the spin axis, the result is pro-spin and the result is it is resistant to recovery inputs to stop the yaw. It's not a simple system like a Skater. By the way the electrical metaphor is a poor choice because of resistance in the circuit... that burns energy. Unless, of course you constructed the circuit out of a superconductor.
@@FlyWirescottperdue OK I {think ??} I get it. So basically what you're saying is the spin axis is different than the lateral, vertical, and longitudinal axis, which is why you place an emphasis on relative wind. Trying to understand this stuff is not that easy LOL. But thanks for the explanation. Yea also, I just realized one of my mistakes in my analogy is the airplane is falling to the earth gaining {or at least maintaining} energy, where as the skater will eventually run out of energy in about 3 seconds.
@@mustardseedsociety No worries, not to make it more complicated, but the falling airplane is just exchanging potential Energy for Kinetic Energy. Some energy in the equation is consumed by drag.
@@mustardseedsociety
Spin a bicycle wheel while holding the axle in one hand, stop it with the other. Now duct tape 5lb weights to the rim opposite each other. Repeat the spin, and stop that mass. Much harder.
@@EllipsisAircraft Yes - like I always preach - man's law is sometimes very goofy and inconsistent with ethics and principles and morality {a subject for another day} - but the laws of physics are "set in stone". So with that being said, my question is, why is there not a push to put BRS in light twin aircraft ?? If a twin is entering "test pilot stuff" to recover from a spin, then let's get some STC's going. The "Airplane 101" guy just recently said in a podcast {somewhat paraphrasing here} "pound for pound, there is no better life saving equipment than BRS" - well he's the "Airplane 101 Guy" and he's more accomplished than me as far as piloting goes, so how about collectively "we" quit messing around and get these STC's out ?? Put BRS on ALL light aircraft. Yes I know, probably going to get a lengthy answer as to why it can't happen.
Non-pilot here..... while I understand this is an important topic, it does give me pause when I think about getting a pilot license. I understand many manuals have a chart/graph showing dangerous areas of the flight envelope where you could get into a spin. Modern glass instrumentation in today's planes should have all the needed data that they could apply to this chart/graph to give you a real-time update on just where you are in the flight envelope. Could this computer watch over your flying data and tell you when you are approaching the danger zone of a spin? I have been hearing a number of stories recently where young pilots are doing their multi-engine training with a view of a career in commercial aviation. It seems every few months I read of another training pilot spinning his light twin into the ground. Could the modern computers keep watch over these situations and keep training pilots out of the danger zone?
Possibly. It’s a matter of cost. That technology worked in the F15E.
I have a perspective - sad that it may be - that the training is required to ensure the individual has the mental horsepower to handle the inputs and take the right decisions. Professional pilots are a rare breed for a reason, they have to be exceptional.
I'll stick with single engine aircraft!
Only tangentially related, but all of the talk about yawing moments and twins lately has made me wonder. Can anyone tell me, in a twin jet with the engines way back on the tail, if one engine fails, does the nose of the airplane yaw toward the still-operating engine? Irrespective of any stability augmentation system the aircraft may have; based on sheer aerodynamics, balance, applied forces, etc., would an aircraft with a dead engine behind the CG yaw in the opposite direction of an aircraft with the same dead engine ahead of the CG? It seems like it would.
The thrust asymmetry would result in a "local" yaw toward the dead engine, but since that local yaw is behind the CG, it would translate to yaw in the opposite direction at the nose...I think?
No. They yaw into the dead engine. I flew the 727, F100, DC9.
@@FlyWirescottperdue thank you! I've been trying to figure this out, but for the life of me I couldn't come up with the right words to type into Google to express my question.
Sadly this video came a few days too late for one twin pilot who apparently had a power loss after take off and ended up in a field. He didn't make it. Cause under investigation...
I have no desire to ever spin any twin thats for sure, its all about prevention
Scott: Confused here. I was USAF trained (T-37, T-38, F-5) and did about 50 spins & recovery. The Beach POH agrees with what I was taught in UPT: Stick full forward, opposite full rudder, power to idle, smooth recovery from the dive after rotations stops. You mentioned "elevator full aft". Beach vid shows elevator full aft (for spin entry) Can you clarify for me and others who may also be confused?
If you flew the T37 the first three steps in the boldface was idle power, ailerons neutral, elevator full aft. You just may not remember it.
There are two reasons for that. Maybe you should watch a few more of my spin videos.
Old T-37 IP here. Procedure called for stick abruptly full forward after anti-spin rudder.
It's a twin, but with engines in the wing roots, probably a lot less rotational momentum.
@@deanmccormick8070 And no mass items on the wings like a Baron or the Duchess. Your point is.....?
@@FlyWirescottperdue Point is that with mass of engines closer to centerline, there is less rotational momentum than with engines further out, as in a conventional civilian light twin. So that makes recovery easier and quicker. Also, iirc, there was a fuel limitation for intentional entries. T-37 has a center tank fed by wing tanks. So fuel limitation means less mass outboard to add that rotational momentum once the yawing has begun.
@@deanmccormick8070 Ok, thanks. Not new information, but accepted.
For us not so airflow familiar viewers, it would be nice if you could demonstrate this with a model. It's really hard to follow what the individual inputs are doing.
Watch the videos I talked about and linked in the description.
I don't really understand what you're saying. I feel like I missed something, like this video is a part of a series. In that spin video of the Baron, I see the elevator and ailerons go neutral, then a recovery. Is that what you were saying? That aileron into the spin and back elevator are pro-spin inputs?
On a different note, Ron White tells a joke long ago where he was on a smaller twin when one of the engines quit. The passenger next to him, scared, asked how far he thought that good engine would carry them. Ron's answer was probably more apropos than he knew: to the scene of the crash.
This video is indeed part of a series of videos on Spins I have done to cast light on what is happening in a very confusing time.
It's complicated. The Test protocol they used for this Duchess, it was not a Baron, was to initiate the spin with In-Spin Aileron. The elevator was full aft. To stall an airplane you need stall and then yaw. During an intentional Spin, the full aft elevator is needed to stall the wings. At the stall left rudder is pressed to introduce yaw. The protocol had the left aileron fully deflected up at the stall. The interesting thing is that presents adverse yaw.... Left aileron up introduces yaw adverse to the left roll... the yaw is to the right. Which is counter to a normal spin entry, it is in fact anti-spin.
When the Spin is developed, during the 2nd or 3rd turn, That In-Spin aileron is no Pro-Roll and it still produces adverse yaw. but the rolling input allows the nose to drop enough to change the relative wind over the rudder so that it becomes effective in stopping the yaw (with a little anit-spin adverse yaw from the left aileron up).
So, to strictly answer your questions- In-Spin aileron is pro-roll, anti-spin, the elevator is what allows the stall/spin to be triggered, so in a way up elevator is pro-spin. But not as effective Pro-Spin as full forward stick.
I realized after I commented that it was s Duchess, not a Baron. :) And, yeah I wasn't thinking, aileron in to spin is anti spin.
Full forward stick is pro-spin? How so?@@FlyWirescottperdue
Should I just watch your videos instead of getting answer in chat? If so a link would be much appreciated. :)@@FlyWirescottperdue
@@tylerfb1 Tyler, I'm of the age group that dislikes texting and short form like this. So, if you don't want to pay attention, do any research yourself, then join a Zoom Chat the next time I do one.
@@tylerfb1 Jeez, my friend. watch the Accelerated Spin video, the link is in the description.
The effect of latetal control during spins is not intuitive and depends on the resultant moments of inertia.... precession. Lateral input isn't typically characterized as 'pro roll' or not, rather it is 'pro spin' or 'anti-spin'. Assuming lateral input acts conventionally, the effect of lateral inputs are determined by moments of inertia, B (Iyy) and A (Ixx) from the eq of motion. Typically, 'in-spin' lateral inputs on high B on A aircraft, like the F15 and F111, will result in an antispin effect, whereas on low B on A, ratios less than 1.3, can have a pro spin effect.
Furthermore, the helix axis path of a spin is typically outside of the aircraft. The rotational motion of the aircraft is always about the aircraft CG.
Generally, forward stick is always considered anti-spin, excluding local aerodynamic effects, eg blanking due to alpha which may be particular to an aircraft type. In terms of precession, it has a restorative effect. Thats why you always release the back pressure from an induced spin. This is the opposite for inverted spins.
I could track with you fairly well with some issues up until your last sentence. The CG is only applicable in normal, forward flight. It is a sum of moments along roll axis. The effect of moving flight controls or power during a spin is a gyroscopic input, not precession.
I totally agree with the premise of your video. Just adding some minor points. I meant to say the eq of motion reference frame that govern how the aircraft behaves is always about the CG. The CG translates down the helix path of the spin and the helix axis is genetally outside the aircraft. A piston/jet engine does have its own gyrospic effects, however control inputs are dictated by the eq of motion... precession and gyroscopic effects in this sense are one and the same, often called gyroscopic precession. Appreciate your valuable insights.
Wouldn’t lowering landing gear help to recover from the spin?
Why?
Whoa, this was the most convoluted description I’ve ever heard… I’m still not sure what you were trying to get across? Maybe I missed a previous Video?
Yes, you did, links in the description. You can't cover this topic in 5 minutes. Start with the Accelerated Spins video, it would be best to watch all the spin videos I do in my F333C.
It's a complex subject. This is close to the master's class.
Spin and a VMC roll should not be confused with one another.
In a spin the wing is stalled.
In a VMC roll the vertical stabilizer is stalled.
Yeah, I hear that, but I don't think this is true at all. In any spin there is 'roll', but it is really yaw with one wing dropping for various reasons. The roll and the yaw are coupled. We perceive it as roll, but it isn't. It is a spin, and the power is pro-spin. I think you are searching for an explanation with this notion that a vertical stabilizer stall as the cause. See my Tufted Wing spin video.... the Vertical does not stall by itself. In a departure the wing and the inside vertical stall at the same time. It's more complicated than you suggest.
@@FlyWirescottperdue Well the real problem is in the recovery. The recovery of a spin is to FIRST stop the yaw by stepping on the rudder. Which in a VMC roll ain't gonna do anything because the vertical stabilizer (and rudder) are already stalled. The ONLY recovery for the VMC roll is POWER off, NOSE down. And because those recovery techniques are so different, the 2 shouldn't be confused with one another.
Perhaps no twin should be certified without a structural anti-spin device or a chute?
or don't stall a twin inadvertently. Do you know how expensive that would make twins? What's the price of a new Cirrus SR22 now? Dang near a million dollars. No better teaching of airmanship skills is needed.
Assuming you have to good engines. I'm not twin rated. Go full power opposite spin?
No. Juan Brown had an excellent video explaining why that won’t work.
No, Unless you are in an F-15 centerline thrust... power is PRO-SPIN.
This video begins @: 8:23
""5 or 6" lol
Piper Tomahawk T-Tail blanks out in a spin
While the tail is partially obscured, the tomahawk tail does not blank out in spins. The aircraft is fully recoverable using standard recovery techniques. Recommend any such practice be initiated from at least 10k'+ AGL.
Great video, but you do waffle a bit
About what?
Best bet stay out of airplanes 😂
Talking head videos SUCK.
Then go watch TikTok. Maybe you’ll learn something there.
😂
I have to tell you that it wasn't a twin, but when a BFR CFI asked me to do power on and power off stalls in my C-172B at 3,000 agl , I laughed at him. Before the flight I had to tell him what we would do as a team, CRM, in an engine failure at all aspects of flight. He got pissed and said he was there to review me. Needless to say I promptly landed and found another CFI.
Just out of curiosity, what did he do wrong?
@@LowandFast357 3000' is at least 2000' too low.
Damn straight!
@@FlyWirescottperdue Maybe I'm missing something here. What did this CFI do wrong?
@@FlyWirescottperdue Lol. I can't tell if your comment is in favor or opposition of mine. 😁