The whole point was a knife he wanted folks. 1) lightweight,2) durable, 3) full tang tough that could hold an good edge. I don’t think there is a knife on the market that could handle the abuse I just witnessed! I was astounded! First, who would treat a knife like this?😂😂 Your test was a success and I’ll be the first in line to order one of those knives in what ever steel you choose to make them out of. Awesome job and you get a star for courage on this...😂😂
Absolutely stunned by your vid. Last year I destroyed a blade made by me in 2006 from 1045 by batoning and the tang was only 4,5 mm width. I always think how our ancestors had to use their blades in daily use and always come to the conclusion there is always a way to breake your knive missusing it. It is a knive not a tank or an axe and also it is always incredible what the steel is capable of. Thanks for your effort showing that ability to us.
It wouldn't hold up very well when splitting through all that wood, however, I have recently seen some pretty crazy wear resistance testing on specific a DLC coating done by Razor Edge Knives over at BladeForums. He seems to have that process down. Looks beautiful on an mirror polish just like hot blueing does.
@@lsubslimed I am not familiar with the product, but you are likely correct about standard bluing. It holds up pretty well, but nothing can hold up to splitting dirty wood... any amount of fine quartz based sand or dust, and.... well, quartz is pretty hard compared to steel of any kind. The only true cure for rust on tools in contact with abrasives is stainless steel, even with its other issues.
I'd be interested to see what nitriding does. I make saw blades for a living and nitride is a fantastic treatment for steel. It makes it harder and corrosion resistant, yet unlike gun blue or coatings it is not just a surface treatment; it will penetrate into the metal itself and even when the nitride appears to have worn off the steel will still have the benefits of the nitride treatment.
One thing that the test showed me was that you are one he'll of a knife maker, I enjoy all of your videos and I'm learning a good bit to improve my skills.Thank You Jake Bissel.
When you cut out the handle opening you may want to put a generous radius/chamfer on the edges of the opening, because that will be the #1 failure area (stress risers). AFAICT from video, that wasn't done. Indeed the failure in both cases was in the cut out handle area. Sharp corners will always lead to failure. (From what I've seen, most manufacturers "cheap out" on anything hidden by handle scales and don't properly radius their cut-out edges. Saves them a few bucks in costs...)
Hi. When both blades broke i noticed the bolts were not tight and were moving. If they were tight would the metal still have broken? Good health and stay safe.
I think it's more the cutout leaving little metal. It happens when you take the skeletonization to the max. The chain is only as strong as the weakest link, etc. I've seen a video of the Becker BK2 break inside the handle and also a Cudeman 'bushcraft' knife. In the old days they used to taper the steel in the handle to make it more lightweight and balanced.
this sounds legit. I think if the front edge at 1/8" or so then the tang with it being thicker should have held up quite a bit if secured properly for sure.
I wish more people tested like this!!! The only think i would like to add is to get more hp on the blade a much heavier baton goes a long way. I prefer a hunk of wood at least 5" in diameter at least 12" in length at full width with a nice handle. Keep up the hard work!
From Europe I appreciated a lot the weight conversions in grams on the previous video, I missed it a bit on this one, but still I really like your videos, keep it up!
The sling shot channel did a great video on cheap vs expensive blades and steel types. In my experience it's almost always side load that oes the damage.
Wibble bobble. That’s it you are my hero knife maker beater upper with words like wibble bobble. I’m super impressed and as always very entertained!!!!
The survival knives I have are made from 1095 steel and they work fine for me and have not broken yet. I have other knives with weaker steel and they are just fine, but they have not been tested to see if they would break. They do not have a full tang though and is just plain hunting knives and not advertised as survival knives.
Don't know if this would be of any interest to you, but there was a fella on the Australian Blacksmith, Bladesmith facebook page who posted some tests he had done on a few steels yesterday. He tested RWL34, 12C27 and NitroV. All variants of stainless steel. He wanted to try and "deep freeze" these steels after heat treating them to find the differing results of hardness between them. The term "deep freezing" means just putting these steels into your basic freezer which is usually set at -18°C. The was his process: -Heat to austenitizing temperature. -Quench between plates. -Freeze. -Temper. He had a scrap piece of steel for each variant of steel for both deep freezing and normal heat treating. So there were 6 pieces he tested. He had each piece hardness tested professionally. I don't know if you're familiar with the hardness testing but, knife steel hardness is measured in Rockwell hardness HRC. His results were as follows: Cold tested steels: - RWL34 = 62HRC - 12C27 = 60HRC - NitroV = 62HRC Normal heat treating: - RWL34 = 58HRC - 12C27 = 58HRC - NitroV = 56HRC So essentially the "deep freeze" tested steels would technically have far better edge retention and durability than your normal heat treated blades; but would be more prone to shattering if they were dropped on something like concrete.
I think most steels would go up the HRC scale if you deep freeze them. Which is why they do it for stainless steels, because unlike carbon, and this is not true for all stainless steels, some shoot up the HRC scale with a basic heat treat, but a lot would not hit the 62+ range unless you deep freeze them after heat treat, they would be what you said that the guy did on his tests, around 58 or whatever but after they would shoot up to 63. Carbon though dont seem to have any problems in reaching 64 with just a basic heat treat, most of them are crazy brittle and need temper right away, its just to get the stainless up a bit higher before they temper them down in both casses. Though from what I heard I dont think your garden variety home frezzer would not do, you would need at least -90 Fahrenheit and that for hours, or a day, and even that may not be cold enough, somewhere in the neighborhood of liquid nitrogen -300 or so degrees. It makes me want to try it, you know just stick some knifes I wont miss, in the freezer for a few days and break stuff, just to see what happens.
@@solairable Yes, it's all very interesting. I wasn't meaning to say it was any better, I just thought the information about deep freezing in general might be of interest to somebody. I wish I had the resources to test this stuff myself, it'd be pretty damn cool to test the steels breaking point using liquid nitrogen deep freezing 👌
@@solairableyou're somewhat inaccurate. It's about the temperature reached and also elapsed time after quenching that affects hardness, not the time in the cryo. All steels benefit from cryo for getting harder but it doesn't increase toughness, it lowers it still. But you'll get a harder blade at the same temper. Usually hardness is the limiting factor for most knives, not toughness. You can make a knife tougher by making it thicker but you can't make it more hard. If it's not hard, you need to make it obtuse anyways to hold up and then the toughness doesn't matter because it's already a prybar.
I'd be interested seeing how the tool steels like O-1, A-2, and L-6 preform. I understand L6 is considered to be really good survival knife steel. I've never used it to know.
It seems to me that we also learned that that type of full-length hollow tang is susceptible to breaking at the point where it enters the handle. Maybe it would be different embedded in the scales with epoxy filling that vast hollow space.
I'm blade-smithing vicariously through you and your giving me great pleasure threw your videos dude!😀 Keep it up and at least Show some type of protective body and eye "Armor" please, your one of my GOAT people and channels?
Im a little late, but i love s7, it is stupidly strong and tough, and my favorite after that is 52100. It can be extremely strong and strong depending how you heat treat it, it can be springy as well rather than take a set at a similar hardness to other other steels. But can also be hardened to about 73 rockwell if using water. Boiling water. Very versatile in uses. S7 is one to use when it you do t want it to break at all. And still be pretty hard. It is expensive though. 52100 is my back up mostly due to cost difference.
I was just talking about Lynn Thompson and how even if he knows what he's talking about.... The way he presents his knowledge comes off as a cheap used car salesman. I don't believe or trust a word he says. You sound like you know exactly what your talking about. I trust these videos. Great stuff.
I know this is a few years late but here is my $0.02 A tough steel ... 8670 is one of the toughest steels on the market. I think the heat treatment known as the goldilocks treatment is 1500f soak for 10 minutes, quench in parks 50, and two temper cycles at 400f for 2 hours. The HRC is around 60 and it has a toughness around 17 ft-lb. Depending on where you look, you can get 8670 at around 0.100 inches to 0.200 inches. 8670 is a low alloy, nickel alloy steel (Nickel in steel is known to make tough steels, but they are difficult to anneal), so it will rust.
The funny thing is your cool handle you designed for testing created a ton of leverage at the bolted points. There would never be that kind of torque on a regular knife handle. Those blades are even tougher than that test shows in my opinion.
Yeah theres no way either would break if anyone was holding the handle. You would most likely break your hand first. I kniw i almost did, or it felt like it😂
I’m a simple man. I see Outdoors55, I thumbs up. Great video as usual! You’re awesome and because of you I bought an angle grinder and made my first knife last weekend!
Lol it wasnt from this😂 I pulled something trying to pull a tree stump out of the ground. Yeah I thought for sure it would have broken. Thanks for watching my friend 👍👊
Loosening of the bolts caused a twisting side leverage force between the handle and the angle iron which would be far greater than the impact force of the blade strike. If you'd worked out a better gripping system (between plates) I think you'd still be hitting the S7 even now.
I only have one S7 blade, and it's a big chopper, but I've found it to be incredibly tough and has never had any signs of chipping or rolling. It holds an edge well, and is not difficult to strop/hone/sharpen. 3v is certainly more corrosion resistant, holds an edge better, but takes longer to bring the edge back using the same abrasives as used on the S7. I don't have a 3v blade comparable to the S7 as far as dimensions, but I think it's a more balanced steel as far as the knife trinity of abrasion resistance, strength, and toughness. I think it will come down to personal preference as to which qualities are more desirable, and how each quality is weighted in its importance by the individual. Either way, on a knife that size, it will be a great knife.
Can you recommend an ultra-premium steel for Arizona law enforcement knives? Due to our low humidity, we do not need corrosion resistance, but toughness and edge retention (wear resistance). Our cops use their knives for everything! - screwdrivers, cutting through fences, slicing seat belts from burn victims, et al. We do not need a recommendation on a specific brand of knives - we will find a manufacturer once we learn which steel is ideal for Arizona LEOs. Can you make a recommendation?
The blade on the S7 steel did bend. You can see it at 7:36. Edit: I see you addressed this at the end of the video, now that I've watched that far. Good job.
Hey Alex, I think for future testing, rather than using wing nuts to secure the knife to the angle-iron, I would use a nylon-lock nut, or something that has more locking/clamping strength. The wing nuts are showing that they come loose during your testing, and the shock and offset forces at the two spots may be contributing to the breakage more than you realize. I realize this is by no means a scientific experiment, but given that Im sure you have these sorts of materials at your disposal (or easily obtained) you may want to consider it. Just for clarification, was it the 1084 or the S7 that you said was VERY prone to rusting? Thanks for yet another awesome vid! Love the info and edumacation!
S7 is tough. However in a knife, I can't think of any steel that will break batoning. roll the edge maybe, but to break a piece of hardened steel (any hardened steel) by striking across it's height, you'd have to exert more force then you can likely apply with your hands. As for the testing, it showed that a knife made from S7 will break after a single hit with the hard wood, while the 1080 took 2. As long as none of the other hits created a crack in the s7, it would be as strong as if it had never been hit.
Okay you got me sold I am Absolutely brutal on knives My best knives don't last me but about a month maybe two at the most. I HUNT, FISH, WORK carpentry, SCRAP METAL 4fun, CUT MASKING TAPE For custom painting cars. If this knife is even close two doing the things you've done on this video I WANT/NEED ONE. WHAT IS IT AND WHERE CAN I GET IT.!!
Outstanding!!!! I have been searching for exactly the same type of product. I have been carrying the Mora myself but share the same concerns with the handle. I would love to see you do this in an S30V or S35VN (my favorite steels). Not sure how they would baton though. Even so I would pay for an orange G10 version with 1084. You may have hit a market niche here.
I may venture into stainless at some point but i dont have the capability for cryogenic treating right now. Yeah it seems some totally get where this project is coming from, and some definitely dont😂 Thanks for watching my friend 👍👊
Mora is tough! The steel they use is crazy tough, too tough even because they're too soft. Toughness matters less if it bends permanently. Toughness + hardness means it can bend further before taking a permanent bend (hardness) and bend further before snapping (toughness). Once a steel starts to bend, it doesn't take much extra force to keep bending it, which is the downfall especially at the apex of the knife.
I completely understand why you are doing this. I hike in CO. BUT, I would just take on an extra ounce and a half and get a Bark River Knives Kephart 3V and be on my way.
S7 is very economical as well. Amazon has it for only $250 for a 1/4" x 1-1/2" x 18" piece. I'm going to order a couple dozen pieces to make a few knives.
I don't think the Mora Basic would stand up to this kind of abuse, but I don't think the finished version of an S7 or 1084 steel knife in the same profile as a Mora Basic would sell for $8 either. I think if you test it, you'll find that the Mora Basic can be used reliably for batoning, as long as the user is reasonable cautious and judicious about it. The basic is also a 3/4 tang knife if I recall correctly.
The handle on the Mora will seek freedom from the stick tang on the blade after 3-4 hits from the battoning beater. Injected molded plastic can't take it like riveted micarta or G-10. Maybe not a "scientific " test ran on the two steels, but compelling results for the forces applied. Gratis stuff man!👍
Hey, do you remember what your thickness bevore the edge was? Ive been doing some testing on 80CrV2 and my testblades took a warp in the edge portion even up to 0,6mm "thickness bevor the edge" while rough batoning through a quite twisted knot. Now im wondering if my HT is faulty. Blades are at 61-62 HRC tough...
If you have fine grain and 61-62 HRC heat treatment should not be the issue. Maybe too thin for the task. Have you seen Larrin last article. 15N20 on 61HRC with 66% higher toughness than 80CrV2 on same hardness. Quite impressive, Its worth checking out.
@@thiago.assumpcao Yeah, might have been too thin. Was a hollow grind too. Yes, definetly have seen that. Truely amazing. Might still take a warp in the same application though, since plastic deformations are mainly determined by yield strength (which correlates mostly with hardness) But still, if the toughness reall is that amazing it might be quite the upgrade :D
Not for this application. Great steel with lots of wear resistance and it's pretty tough for a very high carbide steel. But compared to even 1084, not to mention S7 it's nowhere near as tough. S7 is used in jackhammer bits just to give an idea of it's toughness, it's considered a shock steel. On the charpy notch test(not the end all be all but it gives an idea) S7 I'd about twice as tough as 3v at 58hrc. It's probably 6 to 8 times tougher than k390.
@Gangster of Love to what s7? S7 has about 2-4 times the toughness of 3v(heat treat depending), usually it's about 2.5. It's a steel for jackhammer bits, 3v isn't. But 3v has much better wear resistance and corrosion resistance. There's a lot of interesting steels out there, cpm 9v, 1v, z-tuff, a8 mod (pretty close to the infi busse uses now, not like the old infi), pd1 are all high toughness and high wear resistance steels. I look up a lot of stuff on the zknives app or on Google. There are thousands of steels out there, the stuff we see in knives is just scratching the surface.
Used a Japanese technic. Use 1084 for the core of the blade for more spring reaction and s7 for the outside of the blade for the hard edge. For cutting action. But my opinion is yes a hard blade is better but you need some of properties of 1048. You can forge in that Japanese technic for katana. Or make a Damascus technic. Will work too
good stuff! Since you're hollowing out the "integral" tang to reduce weight, perhaps you can gain another few grammes by making it a hidden tang? Not sure which shape you'd have to pick to best withstand batonning, but that's maybe also a very interesting test series... I'd really would like to know how thin a tang can be - with a proper handle - without significantly compromising the integrity of the blade. And I'd be even more interested in finding out if different shapes of hidden tang make a difference in performance. I've seen hidden tangs straight, curved, centered, aligned with the spine... but perhaps there are other shapes and positions that have better performance for specific use?
I don't believe a hidden tang would be strong enough given this knife size and weight. It would also make the handle material a structural element. For breaking strength everything matters. Including the shape and finish left on the steel surface. Its a rather complex subject once you start digging 😂
@@OUTDOORS55 and yes, the handle would have a structural importance, but I don't think it's that much when the knife is held by your hand. You're batonning the blade, and the handle mostly positions. Your hand will not be as rigid as your contraption, so the handle itself will only receive a very limited shock. The handly only needs to be strong enough to withstand shocks that your hand can handle, otherwise you're smashing your hand anyway, and what good is a stronger knife handle in a shattered hand?
I like S7, 8670, 5160, A8mod, Z-tough and TSP1 steels a lot. I think if you make it true full tang plus tapered tang for balance, it might not break. It broke due the the stress riser of the large hole.
I've been workin' this notion through my head for a while now...WHAT IF.... What if one was to, in lue of tempering in a dry oven, do that 400 degree (plus or minus) quench in hot oil? Would this not "bake" some amount of oil into the grain to help protect it from rusting? Would this not make a blade slightly slicker for it's cutting action? I totally agree that if these blades were equipped with real handles, they would not have broken as they had because your hand would have been absorbing a great deal of the shock generated by the baton blows. Rhino 54 had noted that the mounting bolts to the angle iron were not tight enough to mitigate equipment movement, which may have led to the handle material failure. In the end, it is quite obvious that 1084 and S7 are both very capable steels for making great outdoor knives. Outdoors55...keep doing what you are doing. Should the Zombie Apocalypse ever befall us, you will be one of those very few to have a very sale-able skill and product and, therefore, assure your own survival.
To Outdoors55...I just wanted to add that I really appreciate all the effort you put into both your work and your video production. You are an inspiration to those of us that have little to zero workshop space, given what you are obviously capable of accomplishing.
(1) Will 1084 or S7 sharpen more easily in the field? (2) Will both stay working sharp for 3-4 weeks out in the field? (3) Is 1084 significantly cheaper than S7? We already know 1084 is less rust prone than S7, and it can withstand pretty much anything short of Blade Breaker 9000.
Scientific doesn't matter. It is a blade you are making for yourself. So what matters in the test is only 1 thing. At the end is it strong enough and light enough for your use. Your test work! Because it is your real world applications. That is what makes it for you. Great test. Great video. Great explanations. I know this is an old video. So I know you made your knife already. So I have a question. What is your opinion on a ceramic coat on the non-cutting portion of the blade. Leaving only the blade exposed. I have many blades coated with something. Leaving only the cutting edge exposed. Would that help with rust prevention on this blade?
Very interesting comparison- never thought about using S-7. Though your way of batoning is ridiculously silly - why compromise your most valuable tool? Cut some wedges from small stuff first, then baton your knife into it by hitting it just above the point where the edge is touching the wood - no stress on the handle - most stress where the blade is the strongest. Take the blade out and continue with the wedges - if one fails, just make another one. If you're done use the wedges as firewood too, so no waste of material or effort. This way the blade doesn't need to be that long and can be made even lighter. Never cut straight across the grain - do it at an angle and it' less than half the work - in the fire it doesn't matter, if the wood is tipped or square. To save some more grams you could chamfer the tang, the pommel doesn't need to be as strong as near the blade.
Ive seen most of the toughness testing videos on youtube. Most are concerned with edge toughness or behind the edge toughness, Which allows for very thin grinds. Im more concerned with the entire knife structure, and its ability to hold a knife like shape, so i can make the knife as light as possible.
I don’t know about the mora basic, I have the companion in SS and a pro S, both Sandvik 12c27 I think. For the price, like you said who cares but they’re pretty tough. I’m eager to see you test 3V, hopefully you’ll get cpm 3V. I have 3 Bark River Knives in it & they’re great.
Another great video! These kinds of video's are of great value for knife enthousiasts and makers, like myself. I mostly use O1 and 80CrV2 steel for my knives, so I'd love to see you try and destoy these two steels. Especially 80CrV2 is a very tough steel in my experience 😎
Do you think the mora basic would hold up to the same abuse? Or does it even matter 🤷♂️
You should test it
No way.
Try it. I love Morakniv, but i have my doubts. Maybe the Garberg.
I think Pete (of Cedric and Aida) broke one.
It would be a good reference point!
I always say this, but I'll say it again. Your production is just top tier man. Definitely S class. SSGSS. Ultra instinct editing.
Thanks man! Always appreciate you stopping by👊
Hey, you're that feller with the goofy accent. Hey honey get in here. Its that boy from New Zealand!
I agree
@@targuscincohe's from Australia, not New Zealand 😂
The whole point was a knife he wanted folks. 1) lightweight,2) durable, 3) full tang tough that could hold an good edge.
I don’t think there is a knife on the market that could handle the abuse I just witnessed! I was astounded! First, who would treat a knife like this?😂😂
Your test was a success and I’ll be the first in line to order one of those knives in what ever steel you choose to make them out of.
Awesome job and you get a star for courage on this...😂😂
Absolutely stunned by your vid. Last year I destroyed a blade made by me in 2006 from 1045 by batoning and the tang was only 4,5 mm width. I always think how our ancestors had to use their blades in daily use and always come to the conclusion there is always a way to breake your knive missusing it. It is a knive not a tank or an axe and also it is always incredible what the steel is capable of. Thanks for your effort showing that ability to us.
Try gun bluing (hot blue) on the S 7.
Looks cool, and stops rust.
It wouldn't hold up very well when splitting through all that wood, however, I have recently seen some pretty crazy wear resistance testing on specific a DLC coating done by Razor Edge Knives over at BladeForums. He seems to have that process down. Looks beautiful on an mirror polish just like hot blueing does.
@@lsubslimed I am not familiar with the product, but you are likely correct about standard bluing. It holds up pretty well, but nothing can hold up to splitting dirty wood... any amount of fine quartz based sand or dust, and.... well, quartz is pretty hard compared to steel of any kind.
The only true cure for rust on tools in contact with abrasives is stainless steel, even with its other issues.
I'd be interested to see what nitriding does. I make saw blades for a living and nitride is a fantastic treatment for steel. It makes it harder and corrosion resistant, yet unlike gun blue or coatings it is not just a surface treatment; it will penetrate into the metal itself and even when the nitride appears to have worn off the steel will still have the benefits of the nitride treatment.
I think we learned we should have more protective gear on when testing knife destruction!!! 😂😂😂
🤫 youtube will ban me if they know this is dangerous..im undercover...
One thing that the test showed me was that you are one he'll of a knife maker, I enjoy all of your videos and I'm learning a good bit to improve my skills.Thank You Jake Bissel.
Exactly the video I was looking for. It makes me feel even better about the 1084 I have. Thank you.
When you cut out the handle opening you may want to put a generous radius/chamfer on the edges of the opening, because that will be the #1 failure area (stress risers). AFAICT from video, that wasn't done. Indeed the failure in both cases was in the cut out handle area. Sharp corners will always lead to failure. (From what I've seen, most manufacturers "cheap out" on anything hidden by handle scales and don't properly radius their cut-out edges. Saves them a few bucks in costs...)
Hi. When both blades broke i noticed the bolts were not tight and were moving. If they were tight would the metal still have broken? Good health and stay safe.
I think it's more the cutout leaving little metal. It happens when you take the skeletonization to the max. The chain is only as strong as the weakest link, etc. I've seen a video of the Becker BK2 break inside the handle and also a Cudeman 'bushcraft' knife. In the old days they used to taper the steel in the handle to make it more lightweight and balanced.
I agree, the mounting was a bit so so and the amount of edge material around of the drilled holes plus no chamfered finish.
@@captainchaos3053 😭
@@macmccartney5760 😛
this sounds legit. I think if the front edge at 1/8" or so then the tang with it being thicker should have held up quite a bit if secured properly for sure.
You always upload right when I'm deciding if I'll go to sleep or .. oh look, new outdoors55 video!
I wish more people tested like this!!! The only think i would like to add is to get more hp on the blade a much heavier baton goes a long way. I prefer a hunk of wood at least 5" in diameter at least 12" in length at full width with a nice handle. Keep up the hard work!
From Europe I appreciated a lot the weight conversions in grams on the previous video, I missed it a bit on this one, but still I really like your videos, keep it up!
Sorry forgot to do the conversions in this video. Thanks my friend 👊
@@OUTDOORS55 Don't worry, it's not a big problem!
Every time someone uses ounces instead of grams a small kitten dies.
s7 is used on high end ar15 bolt carrier groups. super cool to see it in action in a different application.
Nice job dude. That was some good dedication right there
What an achievment i dont know much about knives or steel but after your last video on this im super impressed
Very good destruction test. The Destructor 9000 is impressive. Don't go with a thinner stock, but lesson learned: don't hollow out the tang.
The sling shot channel did a great video on cheap vs expensive blades and steel types. In my experience it's almost always side load that oes the damage.
Another great video! I was really surprised by the 1084!
im absolutely loving this series. Id love to buy a knife when its done!
Wibble bobble. That’s it you are my hero knife maker beater upper with words like wibble bobble. I’m super impressed and as always very entertained!!!!
The survival knives I have are made from 1095 steel and they work fine for me and have not broken yet. I have other knives with weaker steel and they are just fine, but they have not been tested to see if they would break. They do not have a full tang though and is just plain hunting knives and not advertised as survival knives.
Hey, do you sell your work, I would love a blade in s7 with a full tang handle. Let me know if you could do that please?
Seth Rainser I don’t think he sells yet but he said he posts anything that is for sale on his instagram
Don't know if this would be of any interest to you, but there was a fella on the Australian Blacksmith, Bladesmith facebook page who posted some tests he had done on a few steels yesterday. He tested RWL34, 12C27 and NitroV. All variants of stainless steel. He wanted to try and "deep freeze" these steels after heat treating them to find the differing results of hardness between them. The term "deep freezing" means just putting these steels into your basic freezer which is usually set at -18°C.
The was his process:
-Heat to austenitizing temperature.
-Quench between plates.
-Freeze.
-Temper.
He had a scrap piece of steel for each variant of steel for both deep freezing and normal heat treating. So there were 6 pieces he tested. He had each piece hardness tested professionally. I don't know if you're familiar with the hardness testing but, knife steel hardness is measured in Rockwell hardness HRC.
His results were as follows:
Cold tested steels:
- RWL34 = 62HRC
- 12C27 = 60HRC
- NitroV = 62HRC
Normal heat treating:
- RWL34 = 58HRC
- 12C27 = 58HRC
- NitroV = 56HRC
So essentially the "deep freeze" tested steels would technically have far better edge retention and durability than your normal heat treated blades; but would be more prone to shattering if they were dropped on something like concrete.
I think most steels would go up the HRC scale if you deep freeze them. Which is why they do it for stainless steels, because unlike carbon, and this is not true for all stainless steels, some shoot up the HRC scale with a basic heat treat, but a lot would not hit the 62+ range unless you deep freeze them after heat treat, they would be what you said that the guy did on his tests, around 58 or whatever but after they would shoot up to 63.
Carbon though dont seem to have any problems in reaching 64 with just a basic heat treat, most of them are crazy brittle and need temper right away, its just to get the stainless up a bit higher before they temper them down in both casses. Though from what I heard I dont think your garden variety home frezzer would not do, you would need at least -90 Fahrenheit and that for hours, or a day, and even that may not be cold enough, somewhere in the neighborhood of liquid nitrogen -300 or so degrees. It makes me want to try it, you know just stick some knifes I wont miss, in the freezer for a few days and break stuff, just to see what happens.
@@solairable Yes, it's all very interesting. I wasn't meaning to say it was any better, I just thought the information about deep freezing in general might be of interest to somebody. I wish I had the resources to test this stuff myself, it'd be pretty damn cool to test the steels breaking point using liquid nitrogen deep freezing 👌
@@solairableyou're somewhat inaccurate. It's about the temperature reached and also elapsed time after quenching that affects hardness, not the time in the cryo. All steels benefit from cryo for getting harder but it doesn't increase toughness, it lowers it still. But you'll get a harder blade at the same temper. Usually hardness is the limiting factor for most knives, not toughness. You can make a knife tougher by making it thicker but you can't make it more hard. If it's not hard, you need to make it obtuse anyways to hold up and then the toughness doesn't matter because it's already a prybar.
Discovery network reported the samurai blade . Not common to see any knife builders trying forged blades , go for it Alex 👍
🤔...👍👊
Not the Blade Breaker 9000!! Every blade Smith’s worst nightmare! Haha good job as always, keep us updated on your quest to make the perfect knife.
I'd be interested seeing how the tool steels like O-1, A-2, and L-6 preform. I understand L6 is considered to be really good survival knife steel. I've never used it to know.
It seems to me that we also learned that that type of full-length hollow tang is susceptible to breaking at the point where it enters the handle. Maybe it would be different embedded in the scales with epoxy filling that vast hollow space.
He really is on the quest to learn as much as he can about knives and steel he is getting good results.
WOW! Fantastic video and kind of shows you that some of the older steels are more than "super" enough than most real world uses. Great video!
I was a Tool and Die maker and often wondered why didn't make Knives Out of S7 shock resistant tool steel perfect👍👍
That was a LOT of leverage on your blades using the ultra long testing “handle”. Impressive.
Around 9:30 for the 1084 the bolt was coming loose allowing it to move and shock against the bolt. Probably caused the different break.
Transform the remaining of the s7 knife as a folding knife
I'm blade-smithing vicariously through you and your giving me great pleasure threw your videos dude!😀 Keep it up and at least Show some type of protective body and eye "Armor" please, your one of my GOAT people and channels?
I've always figured you could break any knife by batoning if you're letting it point upward and hitting it near the tip. Now I'm not so sure.
Im a little late, but i love s7, it is stupidly strong and tough, and my favorite after that is 52100. It can be extremely strong and strong depending how you heat treat it, it can be springy as well rather than take a set at a similar hardness to other other steels. But can also be hardened to about 73 rockwell if using water. Boiling water. Very versatile in uses. S7 is one to use when it you do t want it to break at all. And still be pretty hard. It is expensive though. 52100 is my back up mostly due to cost difference.
I was just talking about Lynn Thompson and how even if he knows what he's talking about.... The way he presents his knowledge comes off as a cheap used car salesman. I don't believe or trust a word he says.
You sound like you know exactly what your talking about. I trust these videos. Great stuff.
I know this is a few years late but here is my $0.02
A tough steel ... 8670 is one of the toughest steels on the market. I think the heat treatment known as the goldilocks treatment is 1500f soak for 10 minutes, quench in parks 50, and two temper cycles at 400f for 2 hours. The HRC is around 60 and it has a toughness around 17 ft-lb.
Depending on where you look, you can get 8670 at around 0.100 inches to 0.200 inches.
8670 is a low alloy, nickel alloy steel (Nickel in steel is known to make tough steels, but they are difficult to anneal), so it will rust.
The funny thing is your cool handle you designed for testing created a ton of leverage at the bolted points. There would never be that kind of torque on a regular knife handle. Those blades are even tougher than that test shows in my opinion.
Yeah theres no way either would break if anyone was holding the handle. You would most likely break your hand first. I kniw i almost did, or it felt like it😂
I’m a simple man. I see Outdoors55, I thumbs up. Great video as usual! You’re awesome and because of you I bought an angle grinder and made my first knife last weekend!
Thanks my friend! Sounds like you had fun👍👊
Looking forward to seeing how 01 does in this kind of testing.
Kinu Grove yes Please do video of this steel
Try aeb-l. Because it has a super fine grain structure, it can hold up to a lot of abuse.
I would love to see a update on the knife you ended up using to see how well it has done
Awesome video brother. Now I know why your arm was sore😂. Those took some serious, out of this world, abuse. Looking forward to scales.
Lol it wasnt from this😂 I pulled something trying to pull a tree stump out of the ground. Yeah I thought for sure it would have broken. Thanks for watching my friend 👍👊
It wouldn't have even broke if the tang/handle was solid and wasn't skeletonize. But still shows how tough even skeletonize. Great testing
Alex, I have really improved my sharpening skills watching you. Could you do a video sometime on sharpening a 6" fishing fillet blade?
Mako
Digging this series mate.... good work!
Jörg Sprave did some cool knife tests
Knives flying against each other
Loosening of the bolts caused a twisting side leverage force between the handle and the angle iron which would be far greater than the impact force of the blade strike. If you'd worked out a better gripping system (between plates) I think you'd still be hitting the S7 even now.
I Commented before watching soo edit. Holy crap good stuff right there.
I only have one S7 blade, and it's a big chopper, but I've found it to be incredibly tough and has never had any signs of chipping or rolling. It holds an edge well, and is not difficult to strop/hone/sharpen. 3v is certainly more corrosion resistant, holds an edge better, but takes longer to bring the edge back using the same abrasives as used on the S7. I don't have a 3v blade comparable to the S7 as far as dimensions, but I think it's a more balanced steel as far as the knife trinity of abrasion resistance, strength, and toughness. I think it will come down to personal preference as to which qualities are more desirable, and how each quality is weighted in its importance by the individual. Either way, on a knife that size, it will be a great knife.
Can you recommend an ultra-premium steel for Arizona law enforcement knives? Due to our low humidity, we do not need corrosion resistance, but toughness and edge retention (wear resistance). Our cops use their knives for everything! - screwdrivers, cutting through fences, slicing seat belts from burn victims, et al.
We do not need a recommendation on a specific brand of knives - we will find a manufacturer once we learn which steel is ideal for Arizona LEOs. Can you make a recommendation?
What about a titanium or magnesium alloy blade
Blck Smith : forges a blade
Forged in fire judges : stabs a steel drum and a cinder block
Doug : your knife will keel
The blade on the S7 steel did bend. You can see it at 7:36.
Edit: I see you addressed this at the end of the video, now that I've watched that far. Good job.
Hey Alex, I think for future testing, rather than using wing nuts to secure the knife to the angle-iron, I would use a nylon-lock nut, or something that has more locking/clamping strength. The wing nuts are showing that they come loose during your testing, and the shock and offset forces at the two spots may be contributing to the breakage more than you realize. I realize this is by no means a scientific experiment, but given that Im sure you have these sorts of materials at your disposal (or easily obtained) you may want to consider it.
Just for clarification, was it the 1084 or the S7 that you said was VERY prone to rusting?
Thanks for yet another awesome vid! Love the info and edumacation!
BigHesh81 I believe Alex mentioned the S7 as very prone to rusting
S7 is tough. However in a knife, I can't think of any steel that will break batoning. roll the edge maybe, but to break a piece of hardened steel (any hardened steel) by striking across it's height, you'd have to exert more force then you can likely apply with your hands. As for the testing, it showed that a knife made from S7 will break after a single hit with the hard wood, while the 1080 took 2. As long as none of the other hits created a crack in the s7, it would be as strong as if it had never been hit.
You have a talent for destruction. I can watch it all day. Nice job on those blades. They survived some serious stuff. S7 looks great.
Loving this new series, keep up the good work!!
Okay you got me sold I am Absolutely brutal on knives
My best knives don't last me but about a month maybe two at the most.
I HUNT,
FISH,
WORK carpentry,
SCRAP METAL 4fun,
CUT MASKING TAPE
For custom painting cars.
If this knife is even close two doing the things you've done on this video
I WANT/NEED ONE.
WHAT IS IT AND WHERE CAN I GET IT.!!
If you ever make a sheath, would you keep oil in it? I mean for the S7 tool steel... I'm sure hot bluing would help a lot to. Just wondering.
Solid Test!!! Thanxs!!!😎
Outstanding!!!! I have been searching for exactly the same type of product. I have been carrying the Mora myself but share the same concerns with the handle. I would love to see you do this in an S30V or S35VN (my favorite steels). Not sure how they would baton though. Even so I would pay for an orange G10 version with 1084. You may have hit a market niche here.
I may venture into stainless at some point but i dont have the capability for cryogenic treating right now. Yeah it seems some totally get where this project is coming from, and some definitely dont😂 Thanks for watching my friend 👍👊
Mora is tough! The steel they use is crazy tough, too tough even because they're too soft. Toughness matters less if it bends permanently. Toughness + hardness means it can bend further before taking a permanent bend (hardness) and bend further before snapping (toughness). Once a steel starts to bend, it doesn't take much extra force to keep bending it, which is the downfall especially at the apex of the knife.
Tough stuff cool test thanks for showing us the blade destructor 9000
You can put on a fake edge or a finger groove or choil along the spine you could also grind it into a drop point witch still works for all your needs
this guy really love knives! beat it boy!
I completely understand why you are doing this. I hike in CO. BUT, I would just take on an extra ounce and a half and get a Bark River Knives Kephart 3V and be on my way.
But what if we added an extra ounce and a half to this😉
@@OUTDOORS55 Then you'd be done? lol
On my opinion it is L6 or L2. But the heat treat is pretty complicated. I do hot oil quench Bainite. But the S7 and v3 should kick ass too.
S7 is very economical as well. Amazon has it for only $250 for a 1/4" x 1-1/2" x 18" piece. I'm going to order a couple dozen pieces to make a few knives.
Lol yeah thats a great price 😳 ill take 25 pieces please 🤣
Love to watch your video on 3v. Looking forward to your videos!
Thanks my friend for taking the time to watch 👍👊
I don't think the Mora Basic would stand up to this kind of abuse, but I don't think the finished version of an S7 or 1084 steel knife in the same profile as a Mora Basic would sell for $8 either.
I think if you test it, you'll find that the Mora Basic can be used reliably for batoning, as long as the user is reasonable cautious and judicious about it. The basic is also a 3/4 tang knife if I recall correctly.
The handle on the Mora will seek freedom from the stick tang on the blade after 3-4 hits from the battoning beater. Injected molded plastic can't take it like riveted micarta or G-10. Maybe not a "scientific " test ran on the two steels, but compelling results for the forces applied. Gratis stuff man!👍
Hey, do you remember what your thickness bevore the edge was?
Ive been doing some testing on 80CrV2 and my testblades took a warp in the edge portion even up to 0,6mm "thickness bevor the edge" while rough batoning through a quite twisted knot. Now im wondering if my HT is faulty. Blades are at 61-62 HRC tough...
If you have fine grain and 61-62 HRC heat treatment should not be the issue. Maybe too thin for the task.
Have you seen Larrin last article. 15N20 on 61HRC with 66% higher toughness than 80CrV2 on same hardness. Quite impressive, Its worth checking out.
@@thiago.assumpcao Yeah, might have been too thin. Was a hollow grind too.
Yes, definetly have seen that. Truely amazing.
Might still take a warp in the same application though, since plastic deformations are mainly determined by yield strength (which correlates mostly with hardness)
But still, if the toughness reall is that amazing it might be quite the upgrade :D
K390. Try it you'll like it
Not for this application. Great steel with lots of wear resistance and it's pretty tough for a very high carbide steel. But compared to even 1084, not to mention S7 it's nowhere near as tough. S7 is used in jackhammer bits just to give an idea of it's toughness, it's considered a shock steel. On the charpy notch test(not the end all be all but it gives an idea) S7 I'd about twice as tough as 3v at 58hrc. It's probably 6 to 8 times tougher than k390.
I never knew that about s7. Thanks for the reply
@@bulbchangingmonkey Sure, no problem.
@Gangster of Love to what s7? S7 has about 2-4 times the toughness of 3v(heat treat depending), usually it's about 2.5. It's a steel for jackhammer bits, 3v isn't. But 3v has much better wear resistance and corrosion resistance. There's a lot of interesting steels out there, cpm 9v, 1v, z-tuff, a8 mod (pretty close to the infi busse uses now, not like the old infi), pd1 are all high toughness and high wear resistance steels. I look up a lot of stuff on the zknives app or on Google. There are thousands of steels out there, the stuff we see in knives is just scratching the surface.
Used a Japanese technic. Use 1084 for the core of the blade for more spring reaction and s7 for the outside of the blade for the hard edge. For cutting action.
But my opinion is yes a hard blade is better but you need some of properties of 1048.
You can forge in that Japanese technic for katana. Or make a Damascus technic. Will work too
Really can't wait to see the end product and final weight!!!
good stuff!
Since you're hollowing out the "integral" tang to reduce weight, perhaps you can gain another few grammes by making it a hidden tang? Not sure which shape you'd have to pick to best withstand batonning, but that's maybe also a very interesting test series... I'd really would like to know how thin a tang can be - with a proper handle - without significantly compromising the integrity of the blade. And I'd be even more interested in finding out if different shapes of hidden tang make a difference in performance. I've seen hidden tangs straight, curved, centered, aligned with the spine... but perhaps there are other shapes and positions that have better performance for specific use?
I don't believe a hidden tang would be strong enough given this knife size and weight. It would also make the handle material a structural element.
For breaking strength everything matters. Including the shape and finish left on the steel surface. Its a rather complex subject once you start digging 😂
@@OUTDOORS55 yes, hence my question to the expert ;))
@@OUTDOORS55 and yes, the handle would have a structural importance, but I don't think it's that much when the knife is held by your hand. You're batonning the blade, and the handle mostly positions. Your hand will not be as rigid as your contraption, so the handle itself will only receive a very limited shock. The handly only needs to be strong enough to withstand shocks that your hand can handle, otherwise you're smashing your hand anyway, and what good is a stronger knife handle in a shattered hand?
Love all your videos
I like S7, 8670, 5160, A8mod, Z-tough and TSP1 steels a lot. I think if you make it true full tang plus tapered tang for balance, it might not break. It broke due the the stress riser of the large hole.
Would like to see the test on Z-tuff and calmax steel.
great test best have seen
3V hasn't let me down yet, I've had a few bad experiences with 52100 and SK5. 420HC is pretty tough too but the edge dulles out pretty quickly.
Wow.., impressive !
...to say the least. 👍🏻
Would you make a knife to sell? I like the design and the toughness of the S7 with a full tang (not hollowed out)
I've been workin' this notion through my head for a while now...WHAT IF.... What if one was to, in lue of tempering in a dry oven, do that 400 degree (plus or minus) quench in hot oil? Would this not "bake" some amount of oil into the grain to help protect it from rusting? Would this not make a blade slightly slicker for it's cutting action?
I totally agree that if these blades were equipped with real handles, they would not have broken as they had because your hand would have been absorbing a great deal of the shock generated by the baton blows. Rhino 54 had noted that the mounting bolts to the angle iron were not tight enough to mitigate equipment movement, which may have led to the handle material failure.
In the end, it is quite obvious that 1084 and S7 are both very capable steels for making great outdoor knives. Outdoors55...keep doing what you are doing. Should the Zombie Apocalypse ever befall us, you will be one of those very few to have a very sale-able skill and product and, therefore, assure your own survival.
To Outdoors55...I just wanted to add that I really appreciate all the effort you put into both your work and your video production. You are an inspiration to those of us that have little to zero workshop space, given what you are obviously capable of accomplishing.
No love for 3v? Good realistic testing man!
Very interesting stuff Alex. Thanks for sharing this.
Any plan to do 1095 tests? This is also popular outdoor steel used in reputable brands.
Fascinating stuff. Keep the vids coming. Best of luck in your quest.
(1) Will 1084 or S7 sharpen more easily in the field? (2) Will both stay working sharp for 3-4 weeks out in the field? (3) Is 1084 significantly cheaper than S7? We already know 1084 is less rust prone than S7, and it can withstand pretty much anything short of Blade Breaker 9000.
S7, S5, 5160, AEB-L, 8670, 1075, A8 & 3V all have very high toughness. Use whatever fits your equipment best and whatever is cheapest.
Scientific doesn't matter. It is a blade you are making for yourself. So what matters in the test is only 1 thing. At the end is it strong enough and light enough for your use. Your test work! Because it is your real world applications. That is what makes it for you. Great test. Great video. Great explanations. I know this is an old video. So I know you made your knife already. So I have a question. What is your opinion on a ceramic coat on the non-cutting portion of the blade. Leaving only the blade exposed. I have many blades coated with something. Leaving only the cutting edge exposed. Would that help with rust prevention on this blade?
Very interesting comparison- never thought about using S-7. Though your way of batoning is ridiculously silly - why compromise your most valuable tool? Cut some wedges from small stuff first, then baton your knife into it by hitting it just above the point where the edge is touching the wood - no stress on the handle - most stress where the blade is the strongest. Take the blade out and continue with the wedges - if one fails, just make another one. If you're done use the wedges as firewood too, so no waste of material or effort.
This way the blade doesn't need to be that long and can be made even lighter.
Never cut straight across the grain - do it at an angle and it' less than half the work - in the fire it doesn't matter, if the wood is tipped or square.
To save some more grams you could chamfer the tang, the pommel doesn't need to be as strong as near the blade.
I really do love your vids 🍻
You should look at some of the toughness testing videos from Big Brown Bear. He talks a lot about super steels and toughness.
Ive seen most of the toughness testing videos on youtube. Most are concerned with edge toughness or behind the edge toughness, Which allows for very thin grinds. Im more concerned with the entire knife structure, and its ability to hold a knife like shape, so i can make the knife as light as possible.
I don’t know about the mora basic, I have the companion in SS and a pro S, both Sandvik 12c27 I think. For the price, like you said who cares but they’re pretty tough. I’m eager to see you test 3V, hopefully you’ll get cpm 3V. I have 3 Bark River Knives in it & they’re great.
That is damn impressive Alex. Really nice job dude
Another great video! These kinds of video's are of great value for knife enthousiasts and makers, like myself. I mostly use O1 and 80CrV2 steel for my knives, so I'd love to see you try and destoy these two steels. Especially 80CrV2 is a very tough steel in my experience 😎
Do you have knives for sale? Can you direct me to where?