Take Your #@*$ Turn! - PAX Unplugged 2019
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 15 ธ.ค. 2019
- We’ve all played the "30-60 minute" board game that seems to always take exactly four hours. Your definition of "a quick game" always seems to be far from what your friends think. But it doesn’t have to be this way! Join us for a lively discussion of what factors, from game design decisions to players’ interactions, cause games to take too long. We’ll then teach you, in detail, how to take your #@*$ turn!
Games just take too freaking long.
Presented by Rym DeCoster and Scott Rubin (GeekNights) at PAX Unplugged 2019 on Sunday, December 08th at 3:00pm.
unplugged.paxsite.com/schedul... - เกม
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As an aspiring designer your panels are always amazing, i can't thank you guys enough for all the help and support you give specially for developers 😉
One thing I would change in a lot of game like MtG or Hearthstone to make them faster: *Draw your next card at the end of your turn!*
I don't know why a lot of games still give you your "new options" at the beginning of your turn. It makes games so much faster to play, when you already know your next options during the turns of the other players and can already plan on what you do.
Great insight! Drawing at the end of the turn is best for speed, but there are a lot of other game design reasons to draw at the start.
@@Apreche What would be some game design reasons to draw at the start, e.g. for MtG / Hearthstone? I'm really curious to know, as I thought quite a bit about this and rarely find a good reason.
@@Yggdracyril all the instant cards. You end your turn with your remaining mana and your remaining hand. Your opponent have soem ideas of what have you in your hand seeing your movements. Introduce another luck element onto this is a bad idea for me
@@Yggdracyril One very basic reason is because it guarantees you have at least one card to play on your turn. If you draw at the end of your turn, you might lose all those cards before your next turn begins.
That's what Mottainai does. You don't even discard down to your hand limit, until the beginning of your next turn
I could listen to these videos ON & ON. Thank you Rym & Scott!
A lot of useful tips that we implemented in the development of Gemji, too.
Cheers! 🙌
great videos as always. One correction: 51:04 to defeat in detail means to bring a large portion of your forces against a small portion of your opponent's force in sequence, rather than engaging the bulk of your enemies forces at once. This is the concept of eating the elephant one bite at a time and is best used against an over-extended opponent. What you're describing is the concept introduced by Sun Tzu called, "knowing what the hell you're doing".
This is one of the best talks I have ever seen!
I learned I am a facilitator. We have an odd person out or a new person, I'm happy to set a side and play banker or rules lawyer because I play more casual than competitive compared to my other gamers.
Thank you for doing the hard work.
I'm working my way through all of your videos about game design. Some great insights here, thanks! I'm halfway in to this one and just had to pause it to say that bird abilities in Wingspan *do* relate pretty well to those birds' real qualities/behaviours/etc! It's one of the things that makes me love the design of Wingspan so much (it's one of my favourite games).
I believe the rulebook explains that the number of eggs in a nest correlates to the number of eggs they lay in reality (as Scott suggested), although it's not a 1:1 ratio. Wingspan, food type and habitat type are all pretty close to reality too. The abilities aren't all particularly evocative or logical, but a decent enough number of them are that you can often guess what kind of ability a bird might have, or what it might not have, based on general bird knowledge.
A few examples of abilities:
• The cuckoo has no eggs in its own nest but lays eggs in other nests when activated. Just like in real life cuckoos lay their eggs in other birds' nests, reducing the effort involved in reproduction because other birds (who are often stupid, apparently) will feed the cuckoo chick as their own, etc.
• Corvids (crows, ravens, magpies, etc) often remove eggs from other nests in return for extra food. Just like in real life corvids often eat other birds' eggs!
• Birds of prey often have abilities that allow them to 'tuck' other birds under a certain wingspan or be played 'on top of' other birds, representing how they predate (generally smaller) birds.
I’m unreasonably upset that you showed a picture of John Company and then didn’t talk about John Company
34:35 Hockey reference. There’s one in every chat.
44:50 A rare second reference.
Have you tried Terraforming Mars? Your talk about bushyness reminded me of how it rapidly snowballs the amount of elements and possible decisions together with a ton of unique cards. (I hate this game.)
I disagree withcthem and agree with Zee Garcia of Dice Tower fame: "you can play this game in 45 minutes, cool, but I LIKED my 90 minutes of playing this. Do you also try to eat stakes as fast as humanly possible? Did you 3ven taste the game?" Or sth like that
Be careful of feeling time VS reality.
I've played with a some people who never follow the game have to be remind that's theyr turn and take an eternity to play.
But because I'm polite and never say they were long and because I'm polite when I remind them for the seventh time during the same game that's they turn by asking for the seventh time "who turn is that ?", they don't take the hint AND they later say I "never follow the game or know who is to play".
Best game of my life ? When we have the chance to play a demo game wich is timed to hollow other to play. I'm far in the quickest to play and some of them are so long to play that they become angry to the poor guy who made the game cause "there isn't enough time to play" with people around feeling bad for the game owner etc.
Funny they didn't continue to call me long after that xD
Just as bad as dnd. When I played it, I took no time at all taking my turn, but the 3 playing with me took like 30 minutes.
I played with people who literally had to figure out what their AC was every turn
@@LimeyLassen oh jesus christ
I feel so bad for you
Yeah I had this problem too. Was playing with 3 players and a DM and 1 guy took turns that lated 15 minutes as opposed to the other 2 min turns. There are ways to fix this though. I've heard of some DM's flipping a sand timer and everyone has to say what they want to do before it runs out. Then, they roll initiative and do their actions.
My pet peeve with slow players is when they don't recognize arbitrary decisions. In fact, I believe that is the primary attribute of a slow player.
If a decision is truly arbitrary then I'd argue that it shouldn't be in the game as a decision (that doesn't mean it can't be in the game as a set of possible events, but that you shouldn't have to make a *decision* between them: the outcome should be random or procedural or something). It's bad game design to include arbitrary decisions.
However, it can be good game design to include decisions that *seem* arbitrary but actually aren't, and the awareness of how decisions can seem arbitrary but actually aren't is one of the things that makes players slow down and hesitate/prevaricate/etc: they feel like there is more to the decision than they have noticed, or that they cannot compute it quickly but can compute it given enough time, etc. Often when I stumble playing a new game I'm trying to work out what the future significance of a present decision will be, with incomplete information; if I'm taking a long time playing a game I know, it's probably because I'm trying to compute all of the possible decisions (which is part of the reason that in some games the last few turns take a much longer time: the game has become sparse and it has become possible to actually compute all the possible/plausible outcomes instead of relying on very rough heuristics or gambling on future events occurring, etc.
For instance I often find myself calculating exactly how many victory points I will get (or am likely to get) for each combination of actions in the last few turns of Wingspan, because by that point you're often faced with a simple choice like either laying eggs with all of your remaining actions or laying eggs once, collecting food once and playing a bird from your hand; or collecting food, drawing a bird, and playing it; etc. You can generally either calculate exactly how many points you'll get for each of those, or have a pretty good estimate (where they involve risky variables like drawing a bird blind from the deck, which generally is very unlikely to be the best option based on known information like food availability or open spaces on your board, so you can often just discount anyway).
Im still tilted for their bad take on the best board game ever, Citadels.
What's wrong with it? If you act randomly like that in Citadels you will beat people who don't most of the time.
@@GeekNightsRym Like, you are not playign the game at this point and Citadels is the coolest game there is, period xD. Thats what is wrong with it.
Cant agree... Who wants to play as most games as possible and not games you can truly enjoy. Also I dont know a single boardgame gamer who isnt in for a slow joyride with some snacks and good discussion inbetween the rounds... Isnt that what boardgameing is all about? If I want to play quick matches then I go play some CounterStrike or Paladins or whatnot. Certainly not a boardgame.
you didnt watch the video XD