Also you will notice that when Ornstein dies (if he dies first) and Smough smashes him with his hammer Ornstein moves his hand slightly so he is still alive but Smought doesnt care.
@@sambarham8887 Ironically, I actually found it easier to kill Pikachu last of the two when fighting by myself. Most of Ornstein's attacks can be easily blocked for little to no damage, the only attack that's a real threat to my knight of his being that unblockable stab move.
I personally think the reason Ornstein put his hand on Smough's chest is because he was saying goodbye to the last companion he had since technically he was the last of the four knights still alive
Would just like to point out 3 things. The heads in the room in anor londo are in fact drake heads. Just to correct you there. Secondly, evidence for ornstein being the captain: he has a red plume on the back of his helmet. Captains often did this so that they could be seen in battle. Lastly, just an interesting fact, three weapons in the gsme regenerate your health when you do damage to enemies with them; Smough's hammer, the butcher knife, amd the server. The first two we know are used by cannibals, and the name of the third could suggest the same. This suggests that any weapon used to prepare human meat as food regenerates health. I just thought this was intereasting and dark.
+BenH Drakes are dragons, the two words are interchangeable. In DS it just seems like the word "drake" refers to smaller dragons or younger dragons and not something completely different. In case you do not believe me for some reason, here is a definition of the word: Archaic. a dragon. Origin: before 900; Middle English; Old English draca < Latin dracō dragon
One theory about Smough's low status is that of the historical state of executioners. It's a pretty general thing that soceity has appalled it's executioners, often finding them more disgusting than the criminals they execute. Japanese culture often refered to them as men who gain their living on the death of others, no better than vultures (it should be noted that a second (guy helping in ritualistic suicide) is not a executioner back in medival culture). It goes even further in western culture where the executioners had to wear hoods to protect their identity as no one wanted to associate or do business with them (meaning that if the identity of an executioner got out he would risk being denied to even buy food) and they were often considered to be damned simply by their profession, as such the western executioners were some of the best paid positions in medival society, but also one of the most shunned leading to a high degree of areas missing proper paid executioners to perform public executions. (it was THAT loathed) Add to the fact that smough has a pretty much universally despised job and a despicable person it is small wonder any and all are appalled by him.
Makes me wonder if the thing about grinding bones is even true, or just a rumor spread by his peers. And Ornstein was the only person to actually see him as a person instead of a monster. A lot people are saying Smough smashing Ornstein is proof he's a psycho, but i see grief and anger. I guess we'll never know for sure.
Not entirely true some places the Executioners were kinda bribed ie people would sell cheap and wear fancy clothes (since the Executioners get to keep stuff from the body) so they would try to cut cleaner and faster if they were ever on the block. their normal payment in many areas was shit because it was an almost damning career but the "Tips" more then made up for this.
yup it has been revealed in dark souls 3 that ornstein left to find the nameless king to either kill him or join him interesting that we find the dragonslayer's weapon and armor set after we defeat the nameless king so was he killed or he simply abandoned his duty as a knight? also interesting to note that smough was the last knight to remain in his post he who is said to have little to no no honour also it makes more sense now why he kills ornstein knowing he's only an ilusion or does he?
Ornstein gives you a soul when killed i doubt he is an illusion i think that like the four lords in ds2 he reincarnated, probably into old dragonslayer from ds2 and then after that he left to find nameless king. If not, then this is kind of a plothole
Hey Dave, another thing to point out is that Ornstein is still alive when Smough crushes him. You can see Ornstein's hand move. This might represent that Smough has become bitter by being denied entrance into the Four Knights. He hates and resents Ornstein for becoming something even greater than he had ever wanted. Smough was treated as nothing but an executioner because of his lifestyle, yet Ornstein, this mighty Captain of the Four Knights has the Gal to ask for his help in guarding the throne. Smough may believe that Ornstein is silently boasting his position and power. Also, you know what they say, keep your friends close, and your enemies closer.
The reason why Ornstein fought with Smough: After defeating Artorias we gave his Soul to Ciaran (she retired after that but she visited Ornstein in Anor Londo and told him that Artorias was defeated 1on1 by a Undead and he will lose to that undead too). If ornstein and artorias are almost equal in power he knew he can`t defend the Throne so he hired Smough to help him fight this unknown undead!! So he put his Duty (Guarding the Throne) over his Honor (Fighting 2vs1 with a monster like Smough)
Well ciaran probably knew that the undead was the chosen undead and told him. Ornstein knowing how his duty also means that the undead has to pass. Probably knew that he HAD to die.
Nice theory. But it was revealed that Ornstein left to find The Nameless King (not sure why). If you defeat The Nameless King then you can find Dragon Slayer Armor that looks exactly like Ornsteins armor. So I believe Ornstein was an illusion and Smough was the real deal. That may also explain why he crushed Ornstein. Or... he didn't know that Ornstein was an illusion and just liked killing things.
@@MT-tl1bd ornstein gives you a soul after killing him and he can actually kill you, an illusion wouldn't be able to do that. But in dark souls 2 it is kind of understood that after the linking of the flame the souls of many lords go back to another body, basically reincarnating: gwyn into the iron king, the witch of izalith into the lost sinner, nito into freja and pygmie into nashandra, in ds2 you fight the old dragonslayer with the same armour that ornstein had, so i think that because he had a piece of a lord soul he reincarnated too into the old dragonslayer and later after maybe dying again that way he rereincarnated and went to find nameless king. That is what makes the most sense to me at least --
What makes dark souls lore so amazing is that it's put into the description of weapons I just love it it makes me want to collect every weapon just to read the description
DaveControlLive And with his chop smacking(shudders)...lol...I also think his pleasant demeanor makes him creepier because you keep wondering if there is something bad around the corner about him.
If you pay attention, Ornstein is still alive when you defeat him first (barely, you can see his fingers moving). And the fact that Smough crushes him could mean one of several things. 1) Smough is jealous of, or despises, Ornstein for any number of reasons. 2)Smough didn't notice that his ally was alive, and simply killed him in an effort to become more powerful. Also, if you die after killing one of the two, both of them respawn. This could influence the idea that they are both illusions. And again, you can see Ornstein up on the balcony above, while Smough is down below at first. This could imply that Ornstein has a more direct affiliation with Gwynevere than Smough. Maybe he was like Lautrec, and had feelings for her? (I'm aware that Lautrec didn't love Gwynevere, I'm making an observation.)
The gargoyles in the church up above undead parish are also an illusion? because if you kill one and die, both are there when you respawn and come back. About Smough, for me its clear that he loves power, wears the most beastly armour in the game, and the most huge strength based weapon. Not caring very much about honour since he defines himself as a executioner. In his obsession and love with brutality and violence, he takes any chances to increase his own powers, so when the opportunity is presented, he smashes his comrade with no hesitation. I don't see it as an act of jealousy but a representation of his personality.
I wanna believe that Smough knew good and well Ornstein was alive when he fell (as others have pointed out, look at his hand) but crushed him in a gesture of "weakness will not be tolerated"
My interpretation of Smough smashing Orinstein's body is that he was angry he died. Wanting to be a knight, I believe he put the knights on a pedestal as powerful, invincible beings and seeing the captain die at the hands of an undead made him angry at you and at Orinstein. But this is just a theory.....a game theory bahahaha
My guess is he may be in similar a race or size comparable to King Vendrick from DS2. No other way he could fit into that huge armour otherwise. A giant though? Not really sure about that but it's a possibility I guess.
+skulll800 Gwyn and Ornstein aren't giants, though. They're part of whatever humanoid race that predates humans that found the original lord souls near the First Flame. They are themselves large compared to humans, but giants in DS1 appear to be another species altogether--whatever species that Gough and the Giant Blacksmith are.
***** Yeah, that's possible. Especially since we've seen that soul accumulation translates to power which (in some cases) translates to size. I am personally of the mind that the god species precursors were just large in general, though, mostly because of how the Pygmy is differentiated by size, despite the fact that he's didn't appear to be any smaller than the average human. That, and everything built by the "gods" of Lordran is massive in scale, which would imply that either they were quite a bit more sizeable than humans or that all of them engaged in soul-gorging debauchery with regularity so they could maintain their stature (which...honestly...also possible). The only ones who seem to contradict this are Ciaran and Vendrick. It's not really clear what experiments Vendrick carried out during his study of the soul and why he's so huge...but, well...I take it will a kg of salt because it's DSII. And DSII contradicts DSI and itself right and left. No explanation for why Ciaran's so tiny, though.
(sorry for my english) What if Ornstein and Smough were friends, but Ornstein discovered his friend's cannibalism. And told about that to Gwyn. And this ended their friendship. May be when Smough dies, Ornstein touches him on the chest with regret and repentance, but if Ornstein fall in battle with the Chosen Undead, Smough finishes him off with hatred and angry (Orny is still alive when Smough smashes him with his hammer)
Ah! You're right about the Sunlight spears. :-/ Yes, I still find your Frampt idea very intriguing, and I hope you make a video about it! I have my next 3 lore vids planned out, and I don't... think(?) we're crossing paths, for a little bit, haha. Not that it matters, you've always got my support!
Or stein was an honorable knight who took his time to honor his last remaining companion even while in battle. Smough does seem more aggressive with it, but I feel that he didn't mean anything by it. He executed Ornstein in an incredibly quick way. He doesn't really have time to grieve either. I think he just thought in a different way.
Also if you see closely Ornstien is alive when you defeat his first faze, you can clearly see his fingers move trying to get up before Smough crushes him with his hammer. I did see this in other comments but I just want more of it for the people who don't go far down in comments =)
I'd still like to know why you find what looks like Ornstein's smashed likeness at the alter of sunlight (you can clearly see his hand gripping that Dragonslayer Spear). Why was his statue there and what was his possible link with the Sunlight Covenant?
I hated these two so much. So many runs through powerful soldiers and invading Dark Spirits to finally kill these two. I felt bad upon killing Orstein first and granting that reprehensible fatty any more power then he deserved. Yes, Dark Souls has gotten me to give an irrational hatred of Smough. I'm with Frampt, fuck that guy.
Cocalin if you made a sorcerer they are a piece of cake. it took me forever to kill them on my dex build but with my int build i just spammed spells and killed them my first try without even getting hit.
I got Dark Souls like two weeks ago and it's probably one of my favorite games now because the story has SO much to it. Everything has meaning and I love it.
I love your videos man,it helped me understand the game better and there's alot of interesting theories that there's no way i'd come up with.Keep up the good work!
Great video Dave... I can say it looks like our lore video ideas won't cross paths this week. I did, at one time plan to do a video called "Smough the Psychopath" but I don't know that I ever will. Anyway, all great points and we're on pretty much the exact same page. Although, I still believe Frampt is evil and we have nothing to go on but his word that he knew Gwyn. One small discrepancy, Gwyn was the Lord of Sunlight, his spears were Sunlight, not lightning.
Well technically ornstein may be an illusion because he abandoned his post to look for the nameless king and in ds3 you can find his armor but there is no body
and to think that in my first playthrough i thought they were friends judging by the way in that ornstein touches his chest, but its true, when smough smashes ornstein he is still alive... what a jerk
it could be that ornstein is the namless king , he touches smough after his death the same way he touchs the dragon when it dies , they use the same weapon , they both have the lightning power and we find ornstein armour lying down in the area the namless king rules
smough was real, the last knight in defense of anor londo. his soul his real. ornstein is an illusion, he left to seek his forgotten king (nameless king), his soul is not literally his soul but a fragment of a soul given to him by gwyn: "Lord Gywn granted this soul to his four most trusted knights" also you find his armor in DS3 at archdragon keep after the fight with the nameless king.
Smough was not unskilled. The implication was that he ad least had a shot at becoming one of the four, despite his cannibalism. The would mean he was at least equal to a few of them in ability, and probably even better when you consider the fact that he would have only been able to present skill, not honor.
I always sort of head-canoned the two wings/lugs on the spear as foot placements. If Ornstein is a dragon slayer, and he has a spear, I figured he's like the dragoon knights in Final Fantasy, and can jump super high to land hard on his enemies. Fly into the air, then land standing on the spear, pogo-like, using gravity and your weight to drive the point home, so to speak.
Anor Londo is the city where the god´s are. Ornstein, Gwyn and Gwydolin are some kind of gods, cause if you use an occult enchanted weapon on them, it will do extra damage. But not on Smough, So I think that the theory of "Joss Olson" is right, and smough´s soul becomes powerfull when he consumes Ornstein. Smough is just a brute charakter, and the special soul for defeating him is just of Ornstein´s origin.
Ornstein had a child with Gwynevere, and named him Jr and that's the Dragonslayer who guards the throne. Jr's father is the Old Dragonslayer who you fight in Dark Souls 2
[Mild spoilers of course, but your probably past the point of defeating him] The soul description and name make it seem like he was modeled after an ancient legend, so it sounds like its not ornsein. However it does raise the question of how connected the worlds are.
Zael Z its always possible that "old dragon slayer" isnt Ornstein. as Ornstein is A dragonslayer not THE dragonslayer, maybe another of the four knights wore very similar armor? maybe the dragon slayers were rewarded with pimpin armor, who knows.
I find it interesting that Frampt not only disliked Smough, but also hated Seath as well, giving few souls for crystal weapons as well as for the channelers set. And Havels ring and armor gives you more souls than average, meaning he probably liked Havel. Maybe the primordial serpents value loyalty and honor more than pure power, as we see that Kaath refers to Seath as a traitor.
I can't say for sure, but I'd imagine for two reasons: 1. It's intimidating. 2. It very plausibly represented a deity, similar to Lautrec's embraced armor. (This theory thanks to MSPainting). - On another note, I believe this was one of the first armor designs presented to Miyazaki during the inception of Dark Souls, and he loved it right away.
Perhaps Smough's soul isn't even a proper soul. He is a cannibal and feasts on the bones of his victims - perhaps he collects their souls as well, as you mentioned when you compared Ornstein and Smough absorbing each other's power to the Chosen Undead leveling up. I'm of the opinion that Smough was never granted the special power of one of the Four, and thus the soul you get on defeating him is a combination of Ornstein's and a crudely forged special soul of Smough's own, cannibalized from the souls of those he has executed.
Smough's soul is different because of how he came by his strength - most other agents of Gwyn received their souls directly from him, and that line is omitted from Smough's description. If Smough's strength ISN'T divinely granted, how can he measure up? I feel like there is a lot of character stuff that happens in that tiny scene where you kill either O or S, but maybe a clue about where they derive their power is also embedded into that little cutscene. Smough uses his hammer to crush Ornstein, an item that you can wield to steal enemy HP, and the only other items that do that in the game are the Server (I'm not sure if this a connection really) and the Butcher's Knife, which is wielded by Mildred, and the description points to Butchers, women who have grown many sizes, presumably because of a diet not dissimilar to Smough's. I always thought the "they hate him because he's a cannibal" a bit too easy. In a world where the bones of the Undead are fuel for the fire (like, bonfire are bones + sword, in DS2 the item Sublime Bone Dust, the homeward bone, etc...), then EATING those bones must be an incredible source of protein (to say the least). Running with that idea a bit - it could be that he was only eventually called "executioner" because the Undead he would kill didn't come "back." When the Gods started dealing with the Undead, it may have come as a relief that Smough could get rid of them "permanently." If Smough DID eat Undead though, timeline-wise I would place it BEFORE the rebellion against the gods, as Havel is still kicking around - evidently, Gwyn supported Seathe in his sketchy evil science because by that point he was already looking for a way to extend the life of the flame, and so the Undead Curse had to already be a thing. I like to think that Smough stopped being an executioner sometime AFTER they figured out that the Undead shouldn't (and can't) be killed and started corralling them in the Asylum. I wonder how many Undead bones he ate before they figured out either "oh man, they come BACK?" or (more likely) "oh man, we need their humanity to keep the flame lit," or even "man, did you notice how big Smough is getting?" If they already found his cannibalism off-putting, then imagine how much worse it would be when it turns out he's eating the flame's only fuel? This is just a little theory I've been cooking up from watching the various different lore channels here, I love your stuff so much, and I don't think any of this contradicts what you said here!
if you look closely at ornsteins hand right before death, his hand twitches. does this indicate that he's still alive, and that smough jumped at the opportunity to finish him, instead of saving him? or was ornstein ready to die a warriors death and was beyond saving?
Very nice video, dude! The thing that pisses me off, why in the hell Gwyn is disgusted by Smough (as it is a very strong hypothesis) and just closes his eyes to whatever strange stuff is happening at the Duke´s Archives. But then again, did Gwyn know about what Seath was doing, or was he already at the Kiln, probably a Hollow Lord of Cinder? Man, how I love DS (ps: playing DSII and taking it very slow)
Man that is crazy. Ever since a guy pointed out that right before smough smashes ornstein's body, you can see his fingers twitch, meaning he was still alive until he killed him I always saw him even worse than before. Really shows the honor he had, eh?
Definitely! My only thought is, why guard with Ornstein - who was most likely guarding for honorable purposes? - Or, maybe with everyone fleeing, there was no more need for an executioner. (Where-as Smough's skillset would have been pretty damn popular during the Occult Rebellion). But, at the end of the day, it's all up for interpretation, and that's definitely a strong possibility!
I believe ornstein was the captain of the knights but he was not the strongest he was the most trusted and loved by Gwyn. the reason I believe this is when u need someone to guard ur family u use the most trusted knight but when u need an enemy that even the strongest king Gwyn knew he could not defeat so he sent his strongest knight artorias because when ur enemy is unstoppable u don't take a chance by not sending the strongest
Another note going alongside ornsteins self promotion, maybe he was not ordered to guard because hes the captain but just that by this point artorias and ciaran are dead(if that's her behind the giant grave) and gough is either dead or still locked away. I wonder as well why a statue was made for smough considering his eating habits an honour in itself for an executioner? subbed
Thanks for the replies. Sometimes it's easy for me to make connections, other times not so much. And that's what I love about this game. Not only is it a great game, but it also fostered a great community. From Software has truly made something special.
its awesome how darksouls has so much hidden lore. also if you decide to kill orenstein first and then smough in their boss battle, in the scene where smough bashes ornstein with a hammer, if you look closely you can see that ornstein's finger moves meaning he's still alive, smough doesnt care and just kills him anyway. perhaps out of envy that he'll never be one of the 4 knights, or perhaps thinking that he'll be promoted to a knight now that the last one is dead
I believe that Smough did know that he is guarding an illusion, but still protects it in hope that he can still become one of the Four Knights Edit: In DS3 you can get his armor after killing Aldrich. This could implement that he guarded the room over all the years until Aldrich killed him.
Besides the disrespect, one of my favourite cutscenes in video game history is Smough smashing Ornstein. Everytime I see that cutscene, I imagine Smough saying "I'm coming for you too, nigga"
Glad my lore videos have been helping! :) Definitely check out EpicNameBro, VaatiVidya, and TerraMantis if you haven't already. They all do some great lore! I like your idea with Smough, sometimes I wonder how much Ornstein really respected him, but I agree that it seems Smough is sorta just "hired muscle" in a sense.
I'm not sure if this was pointed out in the video but I think since Smough's Hammer was said to be used to grind bones into bits, maybe when he smashed his hammer down onto Ornstein he was grinding up his bones so he could eat him? That's the first thing I thought when I saw the animation.
actually ornstein is the captain of the four knights from italian description : Si narra che ornstein sia il capitano dei quattro cavalieri... it means :The legends says that ornstein is the captain of the four knights
DaveControlLive in the german version the description of his armour say: " Ornstein gilt als Anführer der Vier Ritter". they say that he counts ( gilt) as the leader of the four knights.
I want to say that Ornstein and Smough are not illusions of Gwyndolin because of: -> It drops a special soul -> "Ornstein" (Old Dragonslayer) suspiciously appears at the Heide's Tower of Flame Cathedral of Blue.
I used to hate Ornstein and Smough. Now I just hate Ornstein and consider Smough a kindred spirit. Always glad to see another cruel bastard around. >:)
In dark souls all illusions are destroyed in one hit. Like illusionary walls and Gwynevere. But the dynamic duo here are both bosses taking multiple hits. So I don't think they are illusions.
First I thought that Ornstein & Smough are illusions, because you fight Ornstein in DaS2 aswell and Ornstein & Smough both dissipate just like the illusory Silver Knights and Sentinel Guardians. But than I thought about Velstadt being a reincarnation of Smough, and Ornstein is basically reincarnated as Ornstein himself. Smough always wanted to be one of the Four Knights and be part of Gwyn's elite. Now in DaS2, Velstadt is basically what Smough wanted to be in DaS1. Velstadt also fights with a giant hammer type weapon just as Smough did. Velstadt from DaS2 is basically a perfected Smough in a sense (by behavior and such). Some art work of Smough shows that he is not actually fat and is pretty muscular underneath his fat-looking armor. In the cut scene with Velstadt in DaS2, you can see his face for a moment, and he gives me the impression of being pretty muscular and strong (he's swinging a giant hammer chime, so he must be pretty damn strong), just like Smough had great strength (and being pretty muscular looking at the art work) to wield a weapon that required the most strength out of all the weapons with relative ease. I think that Smough could've looked just like Velstadt did underneath Smough's DaS fat-looking armor. Also Velstadt has about the same height as Smough did, even though size is not really something you can go with in the Souls games, as we can see Ornstein grow in size as he absorbs Smough's soul. This is how I view it anyways. Just speculation and looking at both games. No real proof, but speculating and making things up yourself is a part of what you're supposed to do when playing Souls games.
If you listen to Ornstein super form when he does his but slam attack he makes smoughs laughs so i think that when absorb a soul you don't just get there power you get there personality
When you best ornstein first in the cutscene you can still see him breathing before smough smashes him. I don’t know if that’s important but I thought it was a neat detail.
9:50 because this guy simply doesnt have a "soul". when smough dies first, ornstein does a respectful gesture. however, when ornstein falls first, his fingers are slightly moving as seen at 7:40 . he`s still alive, but smough on the other hand sees his opportunity and kills ornstein. small detail, but the most important aspect when it comes to character analysis between those two.
Orsteіn was captain of the 4 Knights. In the video it shows a close-up. He has a decoration on the chest. These ornaments were used as decals. As well as the shoulder straps are now in the army. These ornaments worn by the officers that would be able to differentiate them ordinary. On many of the conceptual art of jewelry there. But on stage, we can clearly differentiate amongst this ornament. You can certainly say that each of the 4 Knights was an officer. But the other knights do not have evidence of such rank. It is a confirmation of his rank. Although there are no references when he got it. Before leaving the rest of the Knights from the service or before? Sorry for bad English.
I've been wondering about the Old Dragonslayer in DS2, when you fight the first one, his power is electrical and bright. However, when you fight the Old one, his power seems dark, tainted, and almost miasmic. Could this somehow be the original Ornstein? Twisted by time and his failure to protect his lord? Give me your thoughts.
(continued) because that Smough's own soul (whatever's left of it) was fused together with Ornstein as you describe in the video. the rest of this thought progress pretty much goes as the video. Frampt was working close with Gwyn and saw Smough as a monster aswell and dishonorable. just my opinion on why Smough's soul differentiate in value when consumed or given to Frampt.
I have an idea what if orinstein new Gwynndelyn was an illusion but didn't have any better purpose in life then to guard the throne room and knowing that he tricked sought into thinking it wasn't an illusion
pretty good video, aside from the last bit. The strongest evidence suggesting that Ornstein and Smough are illusions, is their death animation and sound. They aren't normal death animeation, rather they are identical to those of an illusion dying. such as the silver knight and gwynevere. This pretty much confirms that they are indeed hallucinations and of course explains how it can be that a corrupted Ornstein can be found in dark souls 2. As HE is the real deal.
While thinking about why Frampt would have the same opinion as Gwyn, I came up with this: remember how Kaathe says Frampt befriended Gwyn? How did Gwyn ever get to the first flame? He probably used Frampt to get there. But, can this mean that when the First Flame spawned, Gwyn was persuaded by Frampt to rebel against the dragons? We know the snakes are very old, and it might be a possiblity that Frampt found Gwyn as a King in the old days, and stayed his friend until he knew Gwyn was a goner...
I think of the Lords (including O&S) as being a little larger than humans, but not giants (Like the giant blacksmith or Gough). Gwynevere is the only one who is truly giant size, but it's an illusion, so I think her illusion was made to be larger than she really was. (Except her chest).
Due to new information three things are clear, that weren't when this video was made: 1. Smough was more honorable than Ornstein and stayed at his post. 2. Smough is alot stronger than we thought as it's implied that he either is Aldrich, Devourer of Gods or pulped Aldrich defending Gwyndolin, leading to the Blob we face, instead of a vaguely humanoid creature like expected from abyss afflicted people. 3. Smough is a servant Filianore (pay close attention to the armor and lore).
i think the armor just looks like that on purpose so he can easly intimidate his foes by looking extremely bigger and very menacing, making his enemies feel they are going to be next in his list of victims, very clever and accurate!
Also you will notice that when Ornstein dies (if he dies first) and Smough smashes him with his hammer Ornstein moves his hand slightly so he is still alive but Smought doesnt care.
I don't think so. I think it was because of the force exerted by his hammer. Have u seen the size of that thing ??
*That's what she said*
@@kaustuv5682 before he was hit
I think that’s his nervs going crazy and he’s having a seizure while he’s dead.
@@kaustuv5682 He’s an illusion after all.
pretty sure that's just rigamortis you know the muscles tenseing up.
Pikachu and Snorlax was a pretty tough boss.
lol a reference to a dark souls parody?^
haha Pokémon
Pikachu is pretty easy if you have Solaire distracting Snorlax. After curb-stomping Pikachu, Snorlax is very easy.
@@sambarham8887 Ironically, I actually found it easier to kill Pikachu last of the two when fighting by myself. Most of Ornstein's attacks can be easily blocked for little to no damage, the only attack that's a real threat to my knight of his being that unblockable stab move.
Mauro Molinero sorry that's now engraved into your mind
I personally think the reason Ornstein put his hand on Smough's chest is because he was saying goodbye to the last companion he had since technically he was the last of the four knights still alive
I agree with you on that one. Ornstein being the honorable knight lost the last companion he ever had. It's a hard loss to deal with.
Jester Hellequin Well technically Artorias is alive, just got absorbed by the abyss
Amithius wrong, you kill him
Shiro, Lord Of The Moonlight I'm talking about beforehand, before the Chosen Undead comes to kill everyone
Amithius the dlc take place in the past, so you already kill him before fight orstein and smough
Ornstean has the coolest looking armor in the game
You said it's correct so it is ornstean lol k I'll quit
Juanpablo Montalvo
I think Chosen Undead had best looking armor
Nope, Smough does
Juanpablo Montalvo Artorias is my favorite
eh, the darkwraith and artorias set are pretty cool.
Would just like to point out 3 things.
The heads in the room in anor londo are in fact drake heads. Just to correct you there.
Secondly, evidence for ornstein being the captain: he has a red plume on the back of his helmet. Captains often did this so that they could be seen in battle.
Lastly, just an interesting fact, three weapons in the gsme regenerate your health when you do damage to enemies with them; Smough's hammer, the butcher knife, amd the server. The first two we know are used by cannibals, and the name of the third could suggest the same. This suggests that any weapon used to prepare human meat as food regenerates health. I just thought this was intereasting and dark.
The server is actually used by the occult but its still creepy about smough being a cannibal
I think you got two wrong or me but i think he meant how he got captain not if he is captain
BenH Artorias had a blue plume but I also believe Ornstein was the captain.
+BenH Drakes are dragons, the two words are interchangeable. In DS it just seems like the word "drake" refers to smaller dragons or younger dragons and not something completely different. In case you do not believe me for some reason, here is a definition of the word: Archaic. a dragon.
Origin:
before 900; Middle English; Old English draca < Latin dracō dragon
One theory about Smough's low status is that of the historical state of executioners. It's a pretty general thing that soceity has appalled it's executioners, often finding them more disgusting than the criminals they execute. Japanese culture often refered to them as men who gain their living on the death of others, no better than vultures (it should be noted that a second (guy helping in ritualistic suicide) is not a executioner back in medival culture). It goes even further in western culture where the executioners had to wear hoods to protect their identity as no one wanted to associate or do business with them (meaning that if the identity of an executioner got out he would risk being denied to even buy food) and they were often considered to be damned simply by their profession, as such the western executioners were some of the best paid positions in medival society, but also one of the most shunned leading to a high degree of areas missing proper paid executioners to perform public executions. (it was THAT loathed)
Add to the fact that smough has a pretty much universally despised job and a despicable person it is small wonder any and all are appalled by him.
Yes. Dude try reading the manga "innocent"
Makes me wonder if the thing about grinding bones is even true, or just a rumor spread by his peers. And Ornstein was the only person to actually see him as a person instead of a monster. A lot people are saying Smough smashing Ornstein is proof he's a psycho, but i see grief and anger. I guess we'll never know for sure.
Not entirely true some places the Executioners were kinda bribed ie people would sell cheap and wear fancy clothes (since the Executioners get to keep stuff from the body) so they would try to cut cleaner and faster if they were ever on the block. their normal payment in many areas was shit because it was an almost damning career but the "Tips" more then made up for this.
beware: chest ahead. Ornstein and Smough were there to protect that rack.
smough isnt a fatty???!!!! mind is blown
dont call him fatty!! he's just big boned
@@kenichiooo9454 lol
@@kenichiooo9454 water weight
Ornstein was an illusion. Smough was the only defender of anor londo. Ornstein left to find the firstborne of Gwyn, the Namless King.
yup it has been revealed in dark souls 3 that ornstein left to find the nameless king to either kill him or join him interesting that we find the dragonslayer's weapon and armor set after we defeat the nameless king so was he killed or he simply abandoned his duty as a knight? also interesting to note that smough was the last knight to remain in his post he who is said to have little to no no honour also it makes more sense now why he kills ornstein knowing he's only an ilusion or does he?
Well he didn't know this at the time this was made in 2014
THANK YOU finally !!
Ornstein gives you a soul when killed i doubt he is an illusion i think that like the four lords in ds2 he reincarnated, probably into old dragonslayer from ds2 and then after that he left to find nameless king. If not, then this is kind of a plothole
@@nicolasmouzakis650 DS2 and 3 may as well be fanfiction written by the creator of the original narrative. Too many plot holes and obvious retcons.
Hey Dave, another thing to point out is that Ornstein is still alive when Smough crushes him. You can see Ornstein's hand move. This might represent that Smough has become bitter by being denied entrance into the Four Knights. He hates and resents Ornstein for becoming something even greater than he had ever wanted. Smough was treated as nothing but an executioner because of his lifestyle, yet Ornstein, this mighty Captain of the Four Knights has the Gal to ask for his help in guarding the throne. Smough may believe that Ornstein is silently boasting his position and power. Also, you know what they say, keep your friends close, and your enemies closer.
I think he gets glee that the great captian of the knights would be the one to die before him proofing that he is better then the knights
The reason why Ornstein fought with Smough: After defeating Artorias we gave his Soul to Ciaran (she retired after that but she visited Ornstein in Anor Londo and told him that Artorias was defeated 1on1 by a Undead and he will lose to that undead too). If ornstein and artorias are almost equal in power he knew he can`t defend the Throne so he hired Smough to help him fight this unknown undead!! So he put his Duty (Guarding the Throne) over his Honor (Fighting 2vs1 with a monster like Smough)
Wow, that's a really good theory.
Well ciaran probably knew that the undead was the chosen undead and told him. Ornstein knowing how his duty also means that the undead has to pass. Probably knew that he HAD to die.
makes sense
Nice theory. But it was revealed that Ornstein left to find The Nameless King (not sure why). If you defeat The Nameless King then you can find Dragon Slayer Armor that looks exactly like Ornsteins armor. So I believe Ornstein was an illusion and Smough was the real deal. That may also explain why he crushed Ornstein. Or... he didn't know that Ornstein was an illusion and just liked killing things.
@@MT-tl1bd ornstein gives you a soul after killing him and he can actually kill you, an illusion wouldn't be able to do that. But in dark souls 2 it is kind of understood that after the linking of the flame the souls of many lords go back to another body, basically reincarnating: gwyn into the iron king, the witch of izalith into the lost sinner, nito into freja and pygmie into nashandra, in ds2 you fight the old dragonslayer with the same armour that ornstein had, so i think that because he had a piece of a lord soul he reincarnated too into the old dragonslayer and later after maybe dying again that way he rereincarnated and went to find nameless king. That is what makes the most sense to me at least --
What makes dark souls lore so amazing is that it's put into the description of weapons I just love it it makes me want to collect every weapon just to read the description
Frampt is one of the creepiest looking characters ever.
Despondencymusic Agreed.
DaveControlLive And with his chop smacking(shudders)...lol...I also think his pleasant demeanor makes him creepier because you keep wondering if there is something bad around the corner about him.
Despondencymusic That's what throws me off the most. I can't help but feel like he's going to try and eat me as I walk by him.
Despondencymusic Darkseeker kaathe is worst... right after 4 kings before getting lord vessel
+Lazy Llama No doubt.
If you pay attention, Ornstein is still alive when you defeat him first (barely, you can see his fingers moving). And the fact that Smough crushes him could mean one of several things.
1) Smough is jealous of, or despises, Ornstein for any number of reasons.
2)Smough didn't notice that his ally was alive, and simply killed him in an effort to become more powerful.
Also, if you die after killing one of the two, both of them respawn. This could influence the idea that they are both illusions.
And again, you can see Ornstein up on the balcony above, while Smough is down below at first. This could imply that Ornstein has a more direct affiliation with Gwynevere than Smough. Maybe he was like Lautrec, and had feelings for her? (I'm aware that Lautrec didn't love Gwynevere, I'm making an observation.)
Maybe Smough was just bloodthirsty and wanted the extra power so he could kill the chosen undead
ookaookaooka also with Ornstein dead, who is the Captain? :D
Hrvoje Maric
Tarkus. Tarkus should be the captain of everything.
Tarkus is too busy, he did not fall off, he jumped and invaded hell...
The gargoyles in the church up above undead parish are also an illusion? because if you kill one and die, both are there when you respawn and come back.
About Smough, for me its clear that he loves power, wears the most beastly armour in the game, and the most huge strength based weapon. Not caring very much about honour since he defines himself as a executioner. In his obsession and love with brutality and violence, he takes any chances to increase his own powers, so when the opportunity is presented, he smashes his comrade with no hesitation. I don't see it as an act of jealousy but a representation of his personality.
Every time you say "ORNS TEEN", Solair goes hollow
Lmao
Oh no, you didn't
what about his mispronunciation smough
+nightmare gamer smough is pronounced smog and ornstein is pronounced ornstine
+nightmare gamer You sure the Stein in Ornstein is not german pronounced?
I wanna believe that Smough knew good and well Ornstein was alive when he fell (as others have pointed out, look at his hand) but crushed him in a gesture of "weakness will not be tolerated"
My interpretation of Smough smashing Orinstein's body is that he was angry he died. Wanting to be a knight, I believe he put the knights on a pedestal as powerful, invincible beings and seeing the captain die at the hands of an undead made him angry at you and at Orinstein. But this is just a theory.....a game theory bahahaha
I apologise for mispelling ornstein. My phone mixes words together sometimes.
No worries! I think I misspell/mistype comments on my laptop, so I don't even get an excuse.
I believe Smough must be a type of Giant.
My justification? Who else would grind your bones to make my bread?
My guess is he may be in similar a race or size comparable to King Vendrick from DS2. No other way he could fit into that huge armour otherwise. A giant though? Not really sure about that but it's a possibility I guess.
+skulll800 Gwyn and Ornstein aren't giants, though. They're part of whatever humanoid race that predates humans that found the original lord souls near the First Flame. They are themselves large compared to humans, but giants in DS1 appear to be another species altogether--whatever species that Gough and the Giant Blacksmith are.
+Dan Sapienza I see what you did there.
***** Yeah, that's possible. Especially since we've seen that soul accumulation translates to power which (in some cases) translates to size. I am personally of the mind that the god species precursors were just large in general, though, mostly because of how the Pygmy is differentiated by size, despite the fact that he's didn't appear to be any smaller than the average human. That, and everything built by the "gods" of Lordran is massive in scale, which would imply that either they were quite a bit more sizeable than humans or that all of them engaged in soul-gorging debauchery with regularity so they could maintain their stature (which...honestly...also possible).
The only ones who seem to contradict this are Ciaran and Vendrick. It's not really clear what experiments Vendrick carried out during his study of the soul and why he's so huge...but, well...I take it will a kg of salt because it's DSII. And DSII contradicts DSI and itself right and left.
No explanation for why Ciaran's so tiny, though.
Personally, I think they are actually Fraternal Twins, and therefore have connected souls.
(sorry for my english) What if Ornstein and Smough were friends, but Ornstein discovered his friend's cannibalism. And told about that to Gwyn. And this ended their friendship. May be when Smough dies, Ornstein touches him on the chest with regret and repentance, but if Ornstein fall in battle with the Chosen Undead, Smough finishes him off with hatred and angry (Orny is still alive when Smough smashes him with his hammer)
it's not cannibalism, smough not human, and they found what smough did barbaric
i know that ornstein is not ded wen u kill him, becuz his finger twiches
Minecraftplayer463 smough is human
Ryland Bass no smough is a lord like ornstein,but much bigger.A human couldn't ave his size.
Thank you so much!
Honestly, to even be compared to them is an honor - and very much appreciated!
Ah! You're right about the Sunlight spears. :-/
Yes, I still find your Frampt idea very intriguing, and I hope you make a video about it!
I have my next 3 lore vids planned out, and I don't... think(?) we're crossing paths, for a little bit, haha. Not that it matters, you've always got my support!
Amogus
Or stein was an honorable knight who took his time to honor his last remaining companion even while in battle. Smough does seem more aggressive with it, but I feel that he didn't mean anything by it. He executed Ornstein in an incredibly quick way. He doesn't really have time to grieve either. I think he just thought in a different way.
Also if you see closely Ornstien is alive when you defeat his first faze, you can clearly see his fingers move trying to get up before Smough crushes him with his hammer. I did see this in other comments but I just want more of it for the people who don't go far down in comments =)
I'd still like to know why you find what looks like Ornstein's smashed likeness at the alter of sunlight (you can clearly see his hand gripping that Dragonslayer Spear). Why was his statue there and what was his possible link with the Sunlight Covenant?
Perhaps it has to do with his high standing or something that no one has ever considered. ~Crestfallen
maybe he was a warrior of sunlight but when the firstborn was sent away he destroyed it to not be connected to a banished person to keep up his look
Gwins exiled firstborn
Great Lore series! Even after all the videos on Dark Souls lore Ive seen before you have new info/speculation,keep it up.
I hated these two so much. So many runs through powerful soldiers and invading Dark Spirits to finally kill these two. I felt bad upon killing Orstein first and granting that reprehensible fatty any more power then he deserved.
Yes, Dark Souls has gotten me to give an irrational hatred of Smough. I'm with Frampt, fuck that guy.
Cocalin if you made a sorcerer they are a piece of cake. it took me forever to kill them on my dex build but with my int build i just spammed spells and killed them my first try without even getting hit.
this has to be the most overrated battle in Dark Souls, they aren't that hard
samasima After a few tries you start to learn their limited attacks.
Mr33500 after the first try you learn their pattern lol
I got Dark Souls like two weeks ago and it's probably one of my favorite games now because the story has SO much to it. Everything has meaning and I love it.
I love your videos man,it helped me understand the game better and there's alot of interesting theories that there's no way i'd come up with.Keep up the good work!
Great video Dave... I can say it looks like our lore video ideas won't cross paths this week. I did, at one time plan to do a video called "Smough the Psychopath" but I don't know that I ever will.
Anyway, all great points and we're on pretty much the exact same page. Although, I still believe Frampt is evil and we have nothing to go on but his word that he knew Gwyn.
One small discrepancy, Gwyn was the Lord of Sunlight, his spears were Sunlight, not lightning.
I know the dark souls lore by heart now, yet watching these lore videos never get old
Well technically ornstein may be an illusion because he abandoned his post to look for the nameless king and in ds3 you can find his armor but there is no body
and to think that in my first playthrough i thought they were friends judging by the way in that ornstein touches his chest, but its true, when smough smashes ornstein he is still alive... what a jerk
Ah, I should have given you credit earlier! Added in the description - great speculation. :)
The icon for the Frampt feeding menu cracks me up. Just look at it!
it could be that ornstein is the namless king , he touches smough after his death the same way he touchs the dragon when it dies , they use the same weapon , they both have the lightning power and we find ornstein armour lying down in the area the namless king rules
smough was real, the last knight in defense of anor londo. his soul his real.
ornstein is an illusion, he left to seek his forgotten king (nameless king), his soul is not literally his soul but a fragment of a soul given to him by gwyn: "Lord Gywn granted this soul to his four most trusted knights"
also you find his armor in DS3 at archdragon keep after the fight with the nameless king.
Smough was not unskilled. The implication was that he ad least had a shot at becoming one of the four, despite his cannibalism. The would mean he was at least equal to a few of them in ability, and probably even better when you consider the fact that he would have only been able to present skill, not honor.
I always sort of head-canoned the two wings/lugs on the spear as foot placements. If Ornstein is a dragon slayer, and he has a spear, I figured he's like the dragoon knights in Final Fantasy, and can jump super high to land hard on his enemies. Fly into the air, then land standing on the spear, pogo-like, using gravity and your weight to drive the point home, so to speak.
Anor Londo is the city where the god´s are. Ornstein, Gwyn and Gwydolin are some kind of gods, cause if you use an occult enchanted weapon on them, it will do extra damage. But not on Smough, So I think that the theory of "Joss Olson" is right, and smough´s soul becomes powerfull when he consumes Ornstein. Smough is just a brute charakter, and the special soul for defeating him is just of Ornstein´s origin.
Ornstein had a child with Gwynevere, and named him Jr and that's the Dragonslayer who guards the throne.
Jr's father is the Old Dragonslayer who you fight in Dark Souls 2
+Matty D Niel yeah nah
Can't wait to hear why Ornstein is still alive in DKS2
same
[Mild spoilers of course, but your probably past the point of defeating him] The soul description and name make it seem like he was modeled after an ancient legend, so it sounds like its not ornsein. However it does raise the question of how connected the worlds are.
*****
Perhaps if you killed Ornstein first, they tried to revive Ornstein.
Zael Z its always possible that "old dragon slayer" isnt Ornstein. as Ornstein is A dragonslayer not THE dragonslayer, maybe another of the four knights wore very similar armor? maybe the dragon slayers were rewarded with pimpin armor, who knows.
Jack magnessen
Maybe, that would be cool.
I find it interesting that Frampt not only disliked Smough, but also hated Seath as well, giving few souls for crystal weapons as well as for the channelers set. And Havels ring and armor gives you more souls than average, meaning he probably liked Havel. Maybe the primordial serpents value loyalty and honor more than pure power, as we see that Kaath refers to Seath as a traitor.
but havel is also a trator, he was involved with the occult and was willing to betray gwyn out of shear hatred for seath
In my opinion two of the most interesting characters in DS.Thank you for making this video,thumbs up mate!
Not at all, I'm glad you enjoyed! :)
Ornstien is an illusion and he left Anor Londo with the rest of the gods and this is evidenced by his apperance in DS2 and DS3
I can't say for sure, but I'd imagine for two reasons: 1. It's intimidating. 2. It very plausibly represented a deity, similar to Lautrec's embraced armor. (This theory thanks to MSPainting).
- On another note, I believe this was one of the first armor designs presented to Miyazaki during the inception of Dark Souls, and he loved it right away.
Perhaps Smough's soul isn't even a proper soul. He is a cannibal and feasts on the bones of his victims - perhaps he collects their souls as well, as you mentioned when you compared Ornstein and Smough absorbing each other's power to the Chosen Undead leveling up. I'm of the opinion that Smough was never granted the special power of one of the Four, and thus the soul you get on defeating him is a combination of Ornstein's and a crudely forged special soul of Smough's own, cannibalized from the souls of those he has executed.
That's a decent theory.
7:15 I-
Chosen undead likes them stabs
Smough's soul is different because of how he came by his strength - most other agents of Gwyn received their souls directly from him, and that line is omitted from Smough's description. If Smough's strength ISN'T divinely granted, how can he measure up?
I feel like there is a lot of character stuff that happens in that tiny scene where you kill either O or S, but maybe a clue about where they derive their power is also embedded into that little cutscene. Smough uses his hammer to crush Ornstein, an item that you can wield to steal enemy HP, and the only other items that do that in the game are the Server (I'm not sure if this a connection really) and the Butcher's Knife, which is wielded by Mildred, and the description points to Butchers, women who have grown many sizes, presumably because of a diet not dissimilar to Smough's.
I always thought the "they hate him because he's a cannibal" a bit too easy. In a world where the bones of the Undead are fuel for the fire (like, bonfire are bones + sword, in DS2 the item Sublime Bone Dust, the homeward bone, etc...), then EATING those bones must be an incredible source of protein (to say the least). Running with that idea a bit - it could be that he was only eventually called "executioner" because the Undead he would kill didn't come "back." When the Gods started dealing with the Undead, it may have come as a relief that Smough could get rid of them "permanently." If Smough DID eat Undead though, timeline-wise I would place it BEFORE the rebellion against the gods, as Havel is still kicking around - evidently, Gwyn supported Seathe in his sketchy evil science because by that point he was already looking for a way to extend the life of the flame, and so the Undead Curse had to already be a thing. I like to think that Smough stopped being an executioner sometime AFTER they figured out that the Undead shouldn't (and can't) be killed and started corralling them in the Asylum. I wonder how many Undead bones he ate before they figured out either "oh man, they come BACK?" or (more likely) "oh man, we need their humanity to keep the flame lit," or even "man, did you notice how big Smough is getting?" If they already found his cannibalism off-putting, then imagine how much worse it would be when it turns out he's eating the flame's only fuel?
This is just a little theory I've been cooking up from watching the various different lore channels here, I love your stuff so much, and I don't think any of this contradicts what you said here!
Awesome video dude! keep them coming!
You just mind fucked me with all of this info. My friend and I called Smough the Cannibal just because he was fat. Never thought we were right O.o
if you look closely at ornsteins hand right before death, his hand twitches. does this indicate that he's still alive, and that smough jumped at the opportunity to finish him, instead of saving him? or was ornstein ready to die a warriors death and was beyond saving?
Thanks so much! I wouldn't have created the video unless I thought I had something interesting to present.
Nice video, learned a lot that I had no idea about before!
Very nice video, dude! The thing that pisses me off, why in the hell Gwyn is disgusted by Smough (as it is a very strong hypothesis) and just closes his eyes to whatever strange stuff is happening at the Duke´s Archives. But then again, did Gwyn know about what Seath was doing, or was he already at the Kiln, probably a Hollow Lord of Cinder? Man, how I love DS (ps: playing DSII and taking it very slow)
Man that is crazy. Ever since a guy pointed out that right before smough smashes ornstein's body, you can see his fingers twitch, meaning he was still alive until he killed him I always saw him even worse than before. Really shows the honor he had, eh?
Definitely! My only thought is, why guard with Ornstein - who was most likely guarding for honorable purposes? - Or, maybe with everyone fleeing, there was no more need for an executioner. (Where-as Smough's skillset would have been pretty damn popular during the Occult Rebellion).
But, at the end of the day, it's all up for interpretation, and that's definitely a strong possibility!
If you look carefully, Ornstein moves his left hand before being smashed (7:42)
I believe ornstein was the captain of the knights but he was not the strongest he was the most trusted and loved by Gwyn. the reason I believe this is when u need someone to guard ur family u use the most trusted knight but when u need an enemy that even the strongest king Gwyn knew he could not defeat so he sent his strongest knight artorias because when ur enemy is unstoppable u don't take a chance by not sending the strongest
btw Orinstin is definitely NOT a illusion due to him dropping the leo ring
What armor do the giants wear? (Giant Blacksmith, Giants of Sen's Fortress. etc.)
Another note going alongside ornsteins self promotion, maybe he was not ordered to guard because hes the captain but just that by this point artorias and ciaran are dead(if that's her behind the giant grave) and gough is either dead or still locked away. I wonder as well why a statue was made for smough considering his eating habits an honour in itself for an executioner? subbed
Thanks for the replies. Sometimes it's easy for me to make connections, other times not so much. And that's what I love about this game. Not only is it a great game, but it also fostered a great community. From Software has truly made something special.
its awesome how darksouls has so much hidden lore. also if you decide to kill orenstein first and then smough in their boss battle, in the scene where smough bashes ornstein with a hammer, if you look closely you can see that ornstein's finger moves meaning he's still alive, smough doesnt care and just kills him anyway. perhaps out of envy that he'll never be one of the 4 knights, or perhaps thinking that he'll be promoted to a knight now that the last one is dead
I believe that Smough did know that he is guarding an illusion, but still protects it in hope that he can still become one of the Four Knights
Edit: In DS3 you can get his armor after killing Aldrich. This could implement that he guarded the room over all the years until Aldrich killed him.
Oh these guys...one of the hardest battles in Dark Souls, but also one of my favourite ones.
I had already gone into New Londo and farmed Titanite Chunks. So +15 Balder Swag Sword and a high Dex character. :)
Besides the disrespect, one of my favourite cutscenes in video game history is Smough smashing Ornstein. Everytime I see that cutscene, I imagine Smough saying "I'm coming for you too, nigga"
Glad my lore videos have been helping! :) Definitely check out EpicNameBro, VaatiVidya, and TerraMantis if you haven't already. They all do some great lore!
I like your idea with Smough, sometimes I wonder how much Ornstein really respected him, but I agree that it seems Smough is sorta just "hired muscle" in a sense.
well if you think an illusion wouldn't have such powerful souls... why would an illusion have the Lord's vessel?
+Micheal Singer The illusion didn't drop Gwynevere's soul tho.
I'm not sure if this was pointed out in the video but I think since Smough's Hammer was said to be used to grind bones into bits, maybe when he smashed his hammer down onto Ornstein he was grinding up his bones so he could eat him? That's the first thing I thought when I saw the animation.
actually ornstein is the captain of the four knights from italian description : Si narra che ornstein sia il capitano dei quattro cavalieri... it means :The legends says that ornstein is the captain of the four knights
I love finding out these various translations! It reveals a lot!
DaveControlLive in the german version the description of his armour say: " Ornstein gilt als Anführer der Vier Ritter". they say that he counts ( gilt) as the leader of the four knights.
the only "canon" translations would be the ones from japanese
Don't know if this is already mentioned, but did you see that Ornstein is always alive when Smough crush him (look at his hand) ?
I want to say that Ornstein and Smough are not illusions of Gwyndolin because of:
-> It drops a special soul
-> "Ornstein" (Old Dragonslayer) suspiciously appears at the Heide's Tower of Flame Cathedral of Blue.
Frampt was a follower of Gwyn, and probably followed his views on smough.
I used to hate Ornstein and Smough.
Now I just hate Ornstein and consider Smough a kindred spirit.
Always glad to see another cruel bastard around. >:)
I love the moonlight butterfly song, first time i met it i was like: So beatiful....(imminent tears) and then BOOM, i was dead
Awesome Lore dude
At 7:44 you can see Ornstein's fingers move indicating that he was alive before Smough smashes him
In dark souls all illusions are destroyed in one hit. Like illusionary walls and Gwynevere. But the dynamic duo here are both bosses taking multiple hits. So I don't think they are illusions.
First I thought that Ornstein & Smough are illusions, because you fight Ornstein in DaS2 aswell and Ornstein & Smough both dissipate just like the illusory Silver Knights and Sentinel Guardians. But than I thought about Velstadt being a reincarnation of Smough, and Ornstein is basically reincarnated as Ornstein himself. Smough always wanted to be one of the Four Knights and be part of Gwyn's elite. Now in DaS2, Velstadt is basically what Smough wanted to be in DaS1. Velstadt also fights with a giant hammer type weapon just as Smough did. Velstadt from DaS2 is basically a perfected Smough in a sense (by behavior and such). Some art work of Smough shows that he is not actually fat and is pretty muscular underneath his fat-looking armor. In the cut scene with Velstadt in DaS2, you can see his face for a moment, and he gives me the impression of being pretty muscular and strong (he's swinging a giant hammer chime, so he must be pretty damn strong), just like Smough had great strength (and being pretty muscular looking at the art work) to wield a weapon that required the most strength out of all the weapons with relative ease. I think that Smough could've looked just like Velstadt did underneath Smough's DaS fat-looking armor. Also Velstadt has about the same height as Smough did, even though size is not really something you can go with in the Souls games, as we can see Ornstein grow in size as he absorbs Smough's soul. This is how I view it anyways. Just speculation and looking at both games. No real proof, but speculating and making things up yourself is a part of what you're supposed to do when playing Souls games.
6:22 Anyone know the name of the theme?
If you listen to Ornstein super form when he does his but slam attack he makes smoughs laughs so i think that when absorb a soul you don't just get there power you get there personality
So much detail a movie would be awesome
When you best ornstein first in the cutscene you can still see him breathing before smough smashes him. I don’t know if that’s important but I thought it was a neat detail.
If you look closely you can see Ornsteins finger twitch, meaning he is still alive, but Smough doesn't give a care.
0:49 nice Leo rings.
You can see ornsteins hand move slightly before smough hits him. It seems like smough was hoping someone would kill him so he could absorb his power
9:50 because this guy simply doesnt have a "soul". when smough dies first, ornstein does a respectful gesture. however, when ornstein falls first, his fingers are slightly moving as seen at 7:40 . he`s still alive, but smough on the other hand sees his opportunity and kills ornstein. small detail, but the most important aspect when it comes to character analysis between those two.
+omegapsi847 Well he actually didn't die even with the hammer smash as he's seen in DKS 2.
+Guilherme Zorawski there is a high chance of that being an imposter
+nightmare gamer Who could have the same fighting style as Ornstein? It's him in my opinion.
+nightmare gamer Kay guess I'm retarded then
At least you realize it
Orsteіn was captain of the 4 Knights.
In the video it shows a close-up. He has a decoration on the chest.
These ornaments were used as decals. As well as the shoulder straps are now in the army. These ornaments worn by the officers that would be able to differentiate them ordinary.
On many of the conceptual art of jewelry there. But on stage, we can clearly differentiate amongst this ornament.
You can certainly say that each of the 4 Knights was an officer. But the other knights do not have evidence of such rank.
It is a confirmation of his rank.
Although there are no references when he got it. Before leaving the rest of the Knights from the service or before?
Sorry for bad English.
I've been wondering about the Old Dragonslayer in DS2, when you fight the first one, his power is electrical and bright. However, when you fight the Old one, his power seems dark, tainted, and almost miasmic. Could this somehow be the original Ornstein? Twisted by time and his failure to protect his lord? Give me your thoughts.
(continued) because that Smough's own soul (whatever's left of it) was fused together with Ornstein as you describe in the video. the rest of this thought progress pretty much goes as the video. Frampt was working close with Gwyn and saw Smough as a monster aswell and dishonorable.
just my opinion on why Smough's soul differentiate in value when consumed or given to Frampt.
YOU USED MY THEORY I FEEL SO IMPORTANT :D
I have an idea what if orinstein new Gwynndelyn was an illusion but didn't have any better purpose in life then to guard the throne room and knowing that he tricked sought into thinking it wasn't an illusion
pretty good video, aside from the last bit. The strongest evidence suggesting that Ornstein and Smough are illusions, is their death animation and sound. They aren't normal death animeation, rather they are identical to those of an illusion dying. such as the silver knight and gwynevere. This pretty much confirms that they are indeed hallucinations and of course explains how it can be that a corrupted Ornstein can be found in dark souls 2. As HE is the real deal.
08:58 never thought of that. nice
While thinking about why Frampt would have the same opinion as Gwyn, I came up with this: remember how Kaathe says Frampt befriended Gwyn? How did Gwyn ever get to the first flame? He probably used Frampt to get there. But, can this mean that when the First Flame spawned, Gwyn was persuaded by Frampt to rebel against the dragons? We know the snakes are very old, and it might be a possiblity that Frampt found Gwyn as a King in the old days, and stayed his friend until he knew Gwyn was a goner...
I think of the Lords (including O&S) as being a little larger than humans, but not giants (Like the giant blacksmith or Gough). Gwynevere is the only one who is truly giant size, but it's an illusion, so I think her illusion was made to be larger than she really was. (Except her chest).
Due to new information three things are clear, that weren't when this video was made:
1. Smough was more honorable than Ornstein and stayed at his post.
2. Smough is alot stronger than we thought as it's implied that he either is Aldrich, Devourer of Gods or pulped Aldrich defending Gwyndolin, leading to the Blob we face, instead of a vaguely humanoid creature like expected from abyss afflicted people.
3. Smough is a servant Filianore (pay close attention to the armor and lore).
I know this was uploaded in 2013, but ornstien isn't the last surviving member of the 4 Knights. Gough is still alive.
i think the armor just looks like that on purpose so he can easly intimidate his foes by looking extremely bigger and very menacing, making his enemies feel they are going to be next in his list of victims, very clever and accurate!