Genesis 4: The Fall Continues
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 24 ต.ค. 2019
- Thanks to scholars Ben Stanhope and John Walton for reviewing this video.
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Sources:
Gerhard Johannes Botterweck - Theological Dictionary of the Old Testament
Kenneth A. Matthew - The New American Commentary: Genesis 1:1 - Genesis 11:26
John Walton - The NIV Application Commentary
Gerhard Von Rad - Genesis
Andreas J. Köstenberger and David W. Jones - God, Marriage, and Family
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This is such a improved way of looking at scripture. I was taught too many times in a young age that the reason Cain was rejected was because he brought fruits and vegetables and not a lamb. American churches in teachings really seem to focus weigh too much on the literal words instead of finding the proper context.
@@anahata3478 I mentally facepalmed just reading that, way too many people use that kind of logic.
True. God rejected Cain due to his arrogant attitude & lack of obedience in giving God the best (firstfruits) of his income/harvest... God only asks for a small fraction but He wants to know that He is First in your life... Thank You Lord for Your Revelation... I try to teach my kids this but they ask why should we tithe when churches or ministries won't help us. I told them God has a way of blessing us when we act in obedience in ways we sometimes can't tangibly understand...
@@jamellfoster6029 just remember the old Testament tithe was for the leviticus priest and the temple service. Under the new covenant God loves a cheerful giver. Just be sure to provide for your family first my brother
@@anonymous7607 I'm a lady. And I give God my First Fruits & care for my immediate family. Other relatives (lazy adults who won't work) have to support themselves (I have a few loser siblings 30+ who won't work. I'm not doing a thing for them)....
@@jamellfoster6029 i mean wisdom should be used in any situation but if you feel that they don't deserve any support then you might be right
I'm obsessed with this series of videos! Keep them coming! I'm binge-listening.
Ingrid EyebrowLady Same here I’ve just stumbled across them 👍
This video is really crucial to the proper understanding of the fall of man. Most people think that man fell at one point in the garden of Eden. The reality is that the fall was a gradual process, by which people continued to fall further and further away from God's presence. We consistently chose disobedience over God's way. We fell from depravity to depravity until we could fall no more, and we became ripe for judgement. People were all unrighteous in those times, but they only continued to become more unrighteous. That is what starts in genesis 3 but doesn't end there. This is not to understate the act of man's primal act of disobedience to God in the garden, as that is what allowed and initiated the degradation of man, such that by Genesis 6:3 people had fallen even further than Adam and Eve's condition in the post fall world.
Let's just remember this is all fictional fables. To take it literally is to misunderstand the story.
@@youtubezcy Well not all fables, the talking serpent certainly. Fables are moral stories with animals as characters. Many of the biblical stories are oral histories dressed in metaphors.
@@a.t.6322 I agree. I think those writers wanted to teach a moral and make a symbolic reference and use an archetype and when possible make it prophetic. It's like how da Vinci has hidden paintings within paintings. The style of writing was deep back then. Especially after monks refine it for hundreds of years. It's very artistic.
I always believed the Stories in Genesis opposed favouritism towards the firstborn as well, but the way you tied it to Israel being God’s first born people and how God shows impartiality to them as well was mind blowing!
Thanks again for sharing your insights with us, Can’t wait for the next episode!
Hey guys! This guy has a patreon. It's a solid investment for those talents our master gave us!
I wish this series continues not only to Genesis; but to the other books also....
Salute your hardworks and patients. Eagerly waiting for the next one...
i still love this series. you also have a very listenable voice and your insight is note-worthy
Thank you
these videos have contributed more to Christianity than 99% of today's preachers
Christianity is satanic blasphemy
@@stevem7945 wdym??
This is quickly becoming my favorite TH-cam channel!
By far
The quality of these vids is becoming ridiculously good :)
This content is pure gold. May God bless you even more with wisdom. I have been very blessed by your work. Thank you!
Your insights are as valuable as they are humbling.
bollocks
Never stop this channel
Keep fighting the good fight, IP
Thanks for sending this video, Michael.
Keep it up!!! May God bless you and your work for his glory!!
Please keep doing what you are doing! I've been following your vids for years, and they help strengthen my faith, and I'm definitely not alone thinking this.
I never clicked on a video so fast in my life!
There’s correlations you’re bringing up that I’ve never thought of.🤯
Thank you for doing these!
Thank you for making this video
Just found this channel and wanted to say I'm loving your work. The way you break everything down is just so amazing. Keep up the great work 👍
I know I said this many times but thank you for putting so much effort into your channel, there hasn't been a video of yours that I hadn't liked!
Great video. I really appreciate your channel.
I am so grateful for this video series. Mind blowing and NECESSARY for ALL Christians to see. Thank you for your contribution to the Kingdom!!!!
Excellent, good teaching. God bless
Great job with this series so far! I just discovered you the other day while watching similar videos on the history of Genesis. While most videos on this subject are subjective and contain varying degrees of shared information with some new knowledge, your presentation is wondrously watchable in comparison. And when the presenter is clear about how the information is applicable to their worldview and beliefs like yourself, it adds sincerity and strength to your videos. Thank you for not trying to present a wishy washy or completely unbiased narrative like many do to broaden their audience. It always comes across as a PowerPoint of regurgitated facts which lack humanity. Looking forward to the next one!
I love your teachings.
Amazing page, only just found it yesterday guided by the Holy Spirit here. Thank you God for these people who made these videos. I pray you continue to bless them. Great page by the way. I'm hooked
Great work, really appreciate how you not only in a plain theological manner explain it, but with the true purpose of the Word. In this video the most important to observe abd understand is our hearts and the desires and manners of the heart above anything else. Excellent!
The editing on your stuff is good. You also have a good natural narrative voice for this.
This series is great. Awesome how you bring in the ancient culture
This was awesome Good Job.
Excellent content!
Very good. Informative and useful for edification of the Church. Thank you IP.
Your teaching is excellent >>and needed >>>GODs Peace be with You and the brethren >>
Speaking of scholars, Michael Heiser explains how Second Temple Jewish teaching was that the Fall came in three events, not just one: The rebellion of Adam, the sin of the Watchers (Gen 6:4-6), and the disaster at the Tower of Babel (the Gateway to God).
False teaching. There is no way to link Jude or Peter to the Genesis flood except out of rebellion being punished. Also it states in Genesis 6 what and who the rebellion is accounted to. Strive with man. Man, men or mankind mentioned numerous times in Genesis 6.
@@chkn-littlerebuking7168 question-begging.
@@dennisalwine4519 I am sorry I didn't see any ? in my statement.
@@chkn-littlerebuking7168 why dont you just let ppl learn at their on pace?GOD knows how 2 do his job. N ifalse teaching. Y are u here
@@teresachase354 Maybe I used the same excuse to voice my opinion as you did? 😱😒
These are so good!!! Don’t stop
You understand and point out the truth, thank you.
Flooding Shepherd great job brother I cannot believe how well you communicate this is a 62 year old man that's been reading the Bible for over 30 years thank you brother
This is so cool, I love this channel!
Ok knowing this and whst the next chapter is about and the simple fact your videos are cool I'm eager to see the next part of this series.
This series is so essential for us to truly understand the message of the Bible. Thank you.
Wow!
This is a fantastic series friend.
You honestly took me by surprise with that connection of Jesus referencing Lamek with "seventy times seven"!
I'm currently about to undertake a New-Old Testament reference study and this one is going in there!
I'll be praying for your work here with these videos.
77 times not 70x7
This is a good context specially in the lead-up to Genesis 6. Well done.
There are a lot of hints to what Genesis 6 will be about.
Invaluable, this is so wonderful, good, real manna
This isn't the real story. Yes "Cain" killed his twin brother, Cain which isn't his real name was provoked when he offered all his Children(fruits) and they was rejected because they wasn't as beautiful as Ab'EL flock(Sheep). Ab'EL which isn't his real name than made fun and mock, taunted Cain to the point of rage. Ab'EL was proud and bold throw in Cain face how the God of Heaven favored him and his. The narrative of "Am I my brother keeper?" is a lie. Once Cain killed his brother he instantly morned and repented. Then he was re penned and given the Mark of Cain/Mark of the "Beast" from the God of Earth, the name Samu'EL. It isn't like they'er hiding these facts, its in the history of Babylon clear as day.
Great Video!
Thank you!
Thank you for the quick commentary on polygamy. I had that come up as an issue in a debate and I told them I would have to look into it more. Now I know where to look for more answers. Thank you, man!
Absolutely brilliant....
Thanks!
Incredible, I never would have imagined any of this even though it was an inkling in the back of my mind!
Very good stuff... praise Almighty God & our sweet Lord Jesus...🙏!
Ok great lesson here thanks
This is a really good video
Well done!
Another new subscriber, here.
Will share.
Visuals are what make this channel worthwhile and easy to follow. When we can see things and hear things at the same time about the same things is much easier to understand especially when it comes to deeper things in the Bible. I saw a discussion by John Walton and I read his books but when he does a talk with no visuals it is just not worthwhile or beneficial.
Good stuff, I'm glad to see this video is a little shorter.
Are you planning to go through the whole bible one chapter at a time? Lol
I've appreciated your videos for years, by the way. Find we're on the same page in many areas but you always give me something new to chew on.
No I think the series is only from Gen 1 to 11 priemieval history
alright! i have a test tomorrow .....but studying can defenitly wait!
It's saturday tomorrow...
@@MrChaosAdam so?....
@@mera3666 So you are not writing a test on the weekend?
@@MrChaosAdam
oh i don't live in the states!.....saturday isn't a weekend in my country.
Awww, my autism failed me :'(
That just really opened my eyes more to Genesis 4
@DJ no my man, Ham wasn't the ancestor of Africans, that's propaganda created by American slave owners to dupe blacks and whites. Ham was the ancestor of the Canaanites, who are already gone, don't ever let them tell you the curse of Ham extends to Africans. Africa was the cradle of Christianity, Africans were already Christians long before Europe converted. Ethiopia is one of the oldest Christian nations in the world.
Don't bite white slave owner propaganda. Slave owners had to censor the book of Exodus from the Bibles given to blacks to prevent them from seeing a God that freed slaves. Open your own eyes.
@DJ th-cam.com/video/ztVMib1T4T4/w-d-xo.html
alright I'm subscribing
great video once again inspiring philosophy i was wondering once your done with this video series if your going to tackle the issue of the history women in the church since many seem to misinterpret verses in the new testament saying women cant` be preachers in church and fail to realise the historical context about the verses and that also paul worked with women apostles and teachers
I'd discourage you from trying to eisegesis too much of our own contemporary bias, according to which equality is defined not according to one's own intrinsic value as a human being, but by being able to serve the same role regardless of one's own sex. Women and men clearly have different roles in the bible. We cannot simply divorce the bible from the roles instigated by God in the beginning, and which continue to be the legitimate functions of persons in society regardless of the time in which they live. There is no getting around Paul's clear teaching that women are not to be teachers over men. If we take a flexible stance on biblical interpretation according to which any view in the bible which is frowned upon by the consensus of human opinion today, is to be understood as a mere reflection of the time, then any and all biblical teaching can be readily abandoned. God simply loves us as we are, and and we're all equal persons working towards the creation of a better world on our own. The gospel, which says that we could and cannot better ourselves on our own, and required our creator to become our savior, is made of no effect.
Leagues more insightful than Jordan Peterson's biblical series.
JP is great from a secular perspective, but now that I've converted (with a small help from JP's lectures 😉) then I sure can agree with you that IP is even more insightful!
@@MutohMech that's awesome man. Jordan is an intelligent guy.
JBP is a doorstep for people to rethink religion and the Bible. That is all. IP and others are the next step in returning to God.
Having multiple perspectives is good
Continue to do those series on Genesis. I`d really love if you do it on most of the bible books or on those you do find awesome. After finishing Genesis u can aim for another.
Very insightful. Never thought about that with Lamech and him boasting about murder. Once you pointed that out about polygamy it makes good sense too.
I liked this video, even before watching.
Dr Jones knows his stuff very well
Hey IP, was wondering if you are going to do a response to Pinecreek’s new video where he attempts to respond to your video on judas’s death.
On point.
"Since Cain denies responsibility of a family, he is deprived of family" -- But he does have a family! "And Cain knew his wife and she bore him a son, and he built a city called Enos, after his son's name." Cain got children so he could fill a whole city!
Nice vieod Ip. When finish genesis and eventually the old testament, are you going to do revelation?
Not sure his series is abt Gen1-11 for the time being
Do you plan to make a video on the Five Ways of Saint Thomas Aquinas? I find them some of the best arguments for the existence of God (and, if further developed, specifically of the Christian God ).
He already did. He used science to back it up.
@@juancarlosaliba4866 Wich video was that?
Its in his page. The Kalam argument up to the digital physics argument.
Everything in the bible is overlooked, because we don’t share the same worldview in terms of having the same ancient near eastern mindset Israel did when Yahweh chose them to write the bible for us so that we could know him.
Have you done a video on 666 being Nero?
It's crazy how it talks about not being able to buy or sell without it and how today there is a spirit that doesn't want Christians having a livelihood
Wow what a series! I've only been a Christian for 12 months and most of the my research in apologetics has come from answers for genesis and RC Sproul. This obviously contradicts A4G!
If you. Don't mind me asking what would your belief be on where/how humans began if A&E were not physically created by God?
Regards
Carl
Wow. I didn't catch how lamech was bosting. It makes me see this passage really differently.
Lord have mercy on us
The Book of Hebrews explains why Abel's sacrifice was accepted and Cain's was rejected. It is written, "By faith Abel offered a more excellent sacrifice than Cain..." (Heb. 11:4). Cain was doing his religious duty whereas Abel offered his sacrifice "by faith". When our religion becomes mechanical and unspirited, we offer an inferior sacrifice of praise to the Lord our God.
First real issue I've found in this series. Lamech didn't "murder" anyone. He killed, yes, but didn't murder (in the Hebrew "slay" would be a good term for it). From what we can read, he defended himself. He was claiming that if Cain shouldn't die for his murder of Abel, then he certainly shouldn't die for killing someone in self defense.
Later Scripture is very clear that all homicide isn't murder.
Where did the brothers get the idea of giving an offering to God? There is no record of Adam giving an offering or even thanks. The could be a devise plot to create friction between the brothers. Also, there is a missing part of the text where it says and Cain said to his brother. There is nothing recorded. Is that a copyists error?
How did God communicate to Cain and Able? There is specific dialogue here between Cain and God that indicates a level of communication suggested here that is far beyond what anyone since the garden has experienced, when adam walked with God. Appearances like the burning bush or answering Job from a whirlwind indicate a visible interaction with God. I would love to hear your thoughts.
But why did God accept gifts, what is the use or purpose for him? Was it more of a ritual to give us satisfaction that we were praising him? The sacrifice aspect of it all is what I need to learn more on.
I think Michael said that he was going to do Genesis 1 through 10 in this series.
I think I see an additional layer to the Cain and Abel story, of trying to extend self-dishonesty to one's relationship to God. Cain only offered God his sweet side--his fruit. Abel included in his offering his capacity to kill--that is to say, being conscious of it, he gives it to God to help him control it. Cain refuses to see that this side of himself even exists, though God tries to bring it to his attention, and so it sneaks up on him and overpowers him. Primogeniture tends to breed narcissists: each firstborn son is a child favored for no accomplishment of his own, but also burdened with an expectation of being perfect--or at least only showing others a perfect mask. Cain's response to his sin is not remorse, but an effort to conceal it, and a worry about how he will be perceived by others. So while the Mark of Cain saves his life, it also punishes Cain in a different and tailored way, striking at the root of the problem: he can no longer conceal his sinfulness. To a narcissist this is more painful than death, but it also points the way to healing, by stripping away Cain's mask so that, if he chooses, he can give his whole self over to God.
Michael, I watched your videos on Resurrection, you arguments for God and reliability of the New Testament and etc. which is why I subscribed to your channel in these last couple of days. I am an Orthodox Christian and I saw all the authencity of miracles that happened in Orthodox monasteries and saints. However, I am struggling with doubts, not for any good reasons, but because of testimonies of ex-Christians on the Internet and TH-cam and all other stuff. I know this is unreasonable doubt, but I am still doubting because of their stories. I know this might sound little childish, but could you tell me how to fight this. I would really need an advice, as a fellow brother in Christ.
Great video, like and watch later buttons are pressed by my finger:)
PRAY and read the bible. Jeremiah 29:13. . . God bless you brother
I would be happy to have some fellowship with you as someone who comes from the background of eastern orthodox Christianity, and whose sole and ultimate authority is the bible for the pursuit of all the truth. I would neither be trying to persuade you one way or the other. I'd be happy to see where these "doubts" are so that we can see if they are legitimate. Whether you're leaving Orthodox Christianity for a more broad label, or altogether, should be done only if your doubts prove to be valid, and in the latter case, insurmountable.
Shalom to you friend, I thought of reaching out to you as I have been on the same doubt journey as you are currently on. And having fought that battle for several years and overcoming them by the Grace of God, I am hoping that I can be of help and encouragement to you. So feel free to contact me via my TH-cam channel or by my email (my email is freedom.in.messiah.luke4@gmail.com) if you would like to and we can go from there! :)
@@RagingBlast2Fan No, I wasn't talking about Orthodoxy in general, but faith in Christianity alltogether.
I mentioned miracles in Orthodoxy because they are also good reason to believe, not because I am doubting them. I don't agree with Bible being SOLE and ULTIMATE authority, (but it is still important, we Orthodox do believe in that) but let us not get arguing about that, we are still both brothers in Christ, agree?:)
@Abraham Girt Yeah, I heard some bad points on their side, like ,,Evidence for Resurrection isn't good enough." or ,,I don't feel God when I pray." or being dissapointed in Prosperity Gospel (not getting what they want). In some of their testimonies there really isn't good reason, I agree, but they still get me doubting a little. That is why I said it sounds childish.
Very interesting. Do you think that Moses obtained the information from Abraham or was this before the practice of oral tradition?
No, I think there were oral traditions handed down.
@@InspiringPhilosophy Isn't that also evidenced by the account of Noah, as he was gathering animals to take aboard the ark? How could he have known what was "clean" and "unclean", prior to the Exodus, unless it was oral tradition?
@@FreeRadical7118 Adamic Law thats how
Can u make a video on darkmatter2525 video's the one titled God's priorities
Do you know any books that are related to the bible and history?
The serpent speaks two ways because it's fork tongued duality is like second testament's version attributed as the double sided coin. That which is said " give to the authority which belongs to it and also - give to the most high. That which belongs to it. Therefore then so forth. Give back to me. That which is mine own self and that's the most high. A being of one that's within all and that's us like me plus you with everyone else.
No..i do not got it. How am i to respect rules you won't even respect..?
My Question..
Why do they keep highlighting Cane's silhouette?
Cain’s son Enoch received God’s favor. Why was Ham ’s whole line cursed? Can you explain that comparison?
1. Were the people that Cain was afraid of the people from Genesis 1?
2. Did Adam and Eve become priests to these people when they were banished? Or where they to keep away from them? (This would explain how their sons were able to have children without resorting to incest)
3. If he was banished from this land, was he afraid of the new people he was going to be encountering or from his family (which are not mentioned) or the people in the area of the family?
@OB CANE What Moses taught and wrote purposely excluded the pre-Adamic peoples as it was too hard to convey to the laymen in those days. The creation in Genesis 1 predate Adam and Eve, and so did the times of the "sons of God" mating with those peoples. The offspring had an incredible mutation of genetics creating the nephilim and also was against God's plan. They eventually balanced out to normal size but were of a fallen nature. These are the Nodites who dwelt in the land of Nod, and were forbidden fruit for which Adam and Eve to "eat" from. Eve's fall was mating with one, Cain's father, and Abel who was from Adam, taunted Cain to the point of killing him. Cain feared the Nodites, but eventually married 1 and helped to build a city. The priestly mission of Adam Eve was to set the original peoples back on straight after the first team of designated "priests" had rebelled and took the daughters of man as mates. Adam and Eve had a genetic upliftment plan too, but Eve's sin derailed that, and she was deemed mortal by God for defaulting.
@@LairdScott That's a lot of info to assimilate. Interesting regarding the forbidden fruit.
Could you share your sources?
1. How did the fruit get into the garden?
2. Why was it placed there? (Or are you saying there garden was placed in the land that was shared? )
3. Do you believe that God breathed his Spirit into Adam which the preadamic race did not have?)
@@obcane3072 There is a lot to assimilate. Been studying my main source over 11.5 years.
Adam/Eve's "priestly mission" was not to be the first humans, as that was done already in Genesis one. They came to oversee man's development, and upstep the genetics of man by having a huge number of offspring who were to go out and mate with the races that God created earlier. Adam/Eve existed in a heavenly realm beforehand and needed earthly bodies created for them to interact with earthlings. They were immortal and required eating from the tree of life to sustain their spiritual currents, as well as eating food to sustain their earthly bodies. A location was designated and created for them to operate out of, and was in close vicinity of some peoples already on earth. The Nodites from the land of Nod were descendants of the nephilim, and their "family tree" or genetics was the forbidden fruit, off limits from Adam and Eve, eating of their tree(having sex) defaulted their mission and were downstepped to mortal(surely they will die). There was a previous implantation of a "priestly mission" to oversee the development of the races, but the Lucifer rebellion messed that up and is recorded as the Watchers, Anunnaki, and the fallen angels stories as well as Greek and Roman mythology. Parts of both of these missions have been confused and interchanged in the records which were taken from to created Genesis. Moses being raised by a Pharaoh had privilege to ancient Egyptian writings passed down from Mesopotamia, and he tried to simplify things in teaching people of his day. The Hebrew priests in Babylonian captivity had access to multiple authors, including Moses, when they constructed Genesis, and Gen 1 is clearly from a different author than Gen 2.
I've studied from multiple sources but the main one is a revelation known as the Urantia Book, Urantia is the name of our planet and the revelation in this book is from celestial beings under God, not channeled from extraterrestrials as naysayers who have not actually read the information have claimed. The automatic reaction from fundamental Christians is the say it's the work of the devil, because they have been conditioned to do so by their institution. It's impossible to understand what the 2000 pages really say skimming thru a few paragraphs, it's hard to really understand at first because God is HUGE, Great and His creation is so complex for a mere human being, this revelation requires years of study like a university course, however you can start understanding things after you get used to the terminology and how concepts interlace. It's not for everyone, but if you are hungry and dis-satisfied with the answers fed to you, I encourage anyone to check it out, but like I said, it's hard to grasp in the first few paragraphs. There are lots of readers and study groups around the world willing to help a new reader. Here's the main index and each of the papers(chapters) included a playable file as well as the text. www.urantia.org/urantia-book/read-urantia-book-online
@@LairdScott There are no Pre-Adamites that's false doctrine it's even racist at times.
@@obcane3072 1. The people in Genesis 1 were later descendants of Adam & Eve, there is no such thing as Pre-Adamites.
2. Yes there was incest it wasn't wrong and when Adam and Eve was kicked out the Garden, they lived somewhere else. I guess West of Nod.
3. Cain feared his sibling i.e. other people. Because he didn't want to be murdered either.
4. The Most High put the fruit in the garden.
5. It was placed there as a test and the only law... don't eat it.
6. There are no Pre-Adamites and yes The Spirit was placed in The Most High.
Able brought the first of his flock in offering, while Cain brought whatever was handiest at the moment. The Heart evaluates, determines value. Therefore, guard well the Heart, for from it all the issues of Life emerge.
Hey IP. I just watched your debate with Vegan Gains. While I do agree with your stance, I was curious how you would respond to the objection that “If christianity did not exist to begin with, these prejudices and wrongdoings that result from the misinterpretation of the a bible would not occur either.” It seems like in that case, the atheist would have a valid point that if Christianity did not exist, these prejudices would not happen, whether it is from a true interpretation or a misrepresentation of the Bible. Keep up the good work 👌🏼
IP I know this video is old but I have a question.
You believe in evolution and that Adam and Eve were chosen as king/priests for humanity, right? Then it means that, before them, was killing a sin? Because Sin and its consequences are only given any status after that, but what about before? Like, some historians believe Homo sapiens fought Homo Neanderthals, and that’s one of the reasons they became extinct. What is your opinion on Sin before the election of humanity?
Hey IP, I'm struggling to understand what verses 20-22 mean. And it seems like Tubal-cain must've been from the Iron Age, but that doesn't add up given when you date Noah's flood.
Lots of Genesis syncs up with Zeus schedule at the time, something about Ables sacrifice in the way they mention the fat, has something to do with an argument around that time Zeus had with Prometheus about the nature of the rules of sacrifice and Prometheus tricked Zeus into bones and fat or something.
InspiringPhiloshy, I just recently found this amazing channel and then watched your video about the concept of hell in the Christian tradition and it sounded to me a lot like the thought of Christian universalism, which for me has the right idea of what would be a good and just God. What do you think about this branch of Christianity? Could you make a video about it one day? I'm going to be a patron of you soon =)
Thanks, I have problems with universalism because it seems to make God less than good, by forcing everyone to heaven. What is the point of this life now if it is not for soul-building of creatures who freely choose God.
@@InspiringPhilosophy I'll like to play devil's advocate on this, didn't u say on a stream that it's bad to reject an idea because of its implications? I remember u saying the evidence and reasoning is important and the implications must be dealt with after.
Lucas Santaguida
What biblical scripture supports universalism?
@@ThomB50 There are several passages in the Bible that might be counted as support for universalism as in 1 Corinthians 15:22-28, Psalms 145:13, Isaiah 57:16-18 and so on... you can answer me the right implication of these texts if you wish, I will gladly hear it. For me it's guided towards more of a philosophical problem, even thought it's right to assume we should use theology to resolve the issue. It's just that the idea of an eternal torment seems incompatible with me since God knows we're prone to sin.
Lucas Santaguida
I think a lot of Christians end up wrestling with this subject and need to come to their own conclusion. I personally don’t think that whatever conclusion we come to on this topic affects our salvation, making it a secondary issue.
You have the common view of an eternity in hell for the lost, which is what I believe.
Universalism, where everyone is eventually united with God which is more along the lines of Mormon belief, and maybe even Catholics with their view on purgatory. I’m not 100% sure but I think some Jews might hold to this as well. I remember Ben Shapiro saying something about being cleansed of your sins and then being reunited with God. All three religions I mentioned are works based though. I do not believe works based religions have the gospel, which would mean their adherents are not saved.
The last view I’m aware of is annihilationism which is where those who are condemned to hell are burned up and become no more.
1 Cor 15:22-28
I can see how you could tie this to a universalist view. Counter arguments that could be made is that all will be raised from the dead, some unto life and some unto damnation. Another argument is that Paul is speaking specifically to Christians in regards to understanding salvation in Jesus is not just belief in his name but in his burial and resurrection, which many in Corinth denied.
Psa 145:13 Thy kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and thy dominion endureth throughout all generations.
I’m not sure how you would construe this to everyone, throughout every generation there are those that believe and are saved.
Also:
Psa 145:20 The LORD preserveth all them that love him: but all the wicked will he destroy.
Seems to suggest the opposite of universalism .
I’m not seeing it in Isaiah 57:16-18 either.
In fact there are some verses that suggest the opposite.
Isa 57:12 I will declare thy righteousness, and thy works; for they shall not profit thee.
Isa 57:13 When thou criest, let thy companies deliver thee; but the wind shall carry them all away; vanity shall take them: but he that putteth his trust in me shall possess the land, and shall inherit my holy mountain;
This speaks of the need to have faith in God and not in your own works. God is speaking to rebellious and wayward Jews. Also, keep in mind that those Jews that trusted in God trusted in a savior to come, they were retroactively saved through their faith.
Isa 57:16 For I will not contend for ever, neither will I be always wroth: for the spirit should fail before me, and the souls which I have made.
Isa 57:17 For the iniquity of his covetousness was I wroth, and smote him: I hid me, and was wroth, and he went on frowardly in the way of his heart.
Isa 57:18 I have seen his ways, and will heal him: I will lead him also, and restore comforts unto him and to his mourners.
This is promising to forgive and comfort those who have sinned but are contrite and return to God.
Isa 57:20 But the wicked are like the troubled sea, when it cannot rest, whose waters cast up mire and dirt.
Isa 57:21 There is no peace, saith my God, to the wicked.
And this is everyone else.
It seems to me that those who hold to an annihilationist or universalist view do so because they think God would be immoral to condemn the lost to hell for all eternity. I have several thoughts on this.
1. God does not have to give us anything. Life, heaven, nothing.
2. We all deserve eternity in hell for our wickedness.
3. No where in the scripture do I see a system that tells me how to pay off or work off my sins. How many good deeds for a lie?
4. God does not will for a single one of us to perish. We can’t earn our way to heaven because our righteousness is as filthy rags to God. God put on flesh and paid the fine for our sins. It’s up to us to us to repent of our sins and trust in Jesus to save us.
@InspiringPhilosophy I'm curious, were the other humans during Adam's time (assuming he wasn't the first ancestor of all homosapiens) also sinners, or do you believe that he doomed all man in state of sin in a mathematical sense. (Adam and Eve were some that did not sin, but when they did all now sin). I have a hard time believe we originated as sinners or that because adam sinned that all man in his day became sinners through Adam's decisions. The last one being that all men in Adam's day are in sin because Adam didn't follow the rules