Appreciate the video, because much of the misunderstanding regarding ground and neutral can be traced to the 3 wire dryer and range receptacles that were legal and widely accepted though the 1993 NEC (prohibited in 1996) and further complicating this configuration which I firmly believe should have never been permitted in the first place, was the interpretation from local inspectors. I have done renovations in the past and have found 8/2 & 10/2 NM for ranges and dryers respectively, with the ground acting as the bare neutral, this was never technically permitted per the NEC but was apparently permitted in some jurisdictions. Through the 1993 NEC stated that for frames of dryers and ranges grounded with the grounded (neutral) conductor, the neutral must be insulated or bare when part of an SE cable assembly, and shall be no smaller than 10awg. The history of permission for neutral grounding can trace it's roots to 1942, when metal shortages and rationing during the war prompted manufacturers of electric ranges desperately wishing to sell their products to appeal to the code making panel and ask for special permission. Their request was granted in 1947 for ranges, and 1953 for dryers. Ironically Canada never permitted this, and always required a true ground from the time equipment grounding conductors were required on all 125 and 250 volt circuits in the early 1960s.
I work for an electrical company. I was made to i stall the outlet for the 50A 3-way plug using 2 hots and a ground on the neutral lug. It even said "neutral". I protested but eventually lost since his rationale is that this is the way motors are wired. A large device was going to be plgged into this outlet, not a motor. I feel it was the wrong way but I am a new hire, I had to just shut up. Am I wrong?
For three wire outlets, Ground and Neutral are tied together. For four wire outlets, Ground and Neutral are kept separate all the way back to the circuit breaker panel where they are bonded together.
Some appliances don't need a neutral wire because they operate solely on a high voltage (like 240V) where the current flows between two "hot" wires, creating a balanced circuit and negating the need for a return path (neutral) to carry any imbalance; this is typically seen in appliances like electric ovens, water heaters, and clothes dryers when only using their high-power heating elements, which don't require a lower voltage component that would need a neutral wire to function. Key points to remember: High voltage circuits: Appliances that operate solely on a high voltage (like 240V) usually don't need a neutral wire because the current flows directly between the two hot wires, creating a balanced circuit. No low voltage components: If an appliance has no internal components that need a lower voltage (like control circuits), it can function without a neutral. Balanced load: In a balanced circuit, the current flowing through each hot wire is equal, eliminating the need for a neutral to carry any imbalance.
If you look carefully at your installation instructions for your appliance something interesting happens. The neutral is used to create 120 volts. Originally, the appliances were designed to use only 240v and if they needed 120v for say a light bulb they would use a transformer to make 120v from the 240 v supply. This means the supply source is two lines and a ground. The new appliances can use a neutral to create 120v and ditch the transformer. The instructions call the center white wire a neutral in a three wire cord diagram. The appliance uses a jumper to connect the “neutral” to the case. For the wall outlet the plug connects to, it is sometimes referred to as a ground. So is it a ground or a neutral? The appliance connects it to the frame like a ground wire. Does the appliance use the ground or neutral to create 120v? Can’t tell without putting an amp meter on the ground/neutral wire. Is the wire in the wall a ground or a neutral? Don’t know. To find out one needs to check the breaker box and see where the wire is landed. If it is landed on a neutral bar then it is a neutral. If it is landed on a ground bar then it is a ground. Confused yet? The secret is appliance manufacturers are not required to go by the “National Electric Code.” They have their own code.
When might you have a situation where the hot wire is touching the chassis AND the neutral has broken/burned off? Could it also happen to the ground wire? Say for instance the hot is touching the chassis, but ground is broken even though neutral is just fine. That could still kill you, I believe. My point is that I’m not yet convinced about why a ground is any better in the situation that hot touches chassis, than just tying neutral to the chassis. The argument seems to pivot around the neutral being broken at the same time, which to me sounds about as likely as the ground being broken. Please let me know how I’m wrong, I’m trying to learn.
How would you handle a spa where you only have 2 blacks and a white. Would you have to run a ground all the way to the panel? Could you install a grounding rod at the sub panel/disconnect near the hot tub?
L1 and L2 are basically interchangeable right? I'm hooking up a longer cord for my gasoline generator, and they were inconsistent with the original L1 and L2, but consistent on each end with ground and neutral.
In the past, there were appliances that the neutral and ground were not separated (inside the appliance). That was a good while back, but you still run into them now and then. It was back when things were made to last. I don't believe I have ever seen a single person on an electrician chatboard address this. Is it because they don't know it exists? Or is it because they don't want to say it is out there but they have no comment on it.
I think some really old radios and television sets (pre-1960) had a condenser connected between the neutral or what is assumed to be neutral, and the chassis. And because two prong plugs and receptacles, some of which were non-polarized, (meaning both prongs same size) typical of the era, you have a 50-50 chance of inserting the plug in reverse and having a live chassis. And even if the plug and receptacle was polarized there is no assurance that it was wired properly.
Our house was built in 1980 and uses the older 3 wire 240v outlets for the range. I want to replace them with the newer 4 wire outlets. Luckily, they ran 8ga wire with a ground to the box. Unluckily, they cut the ground very short and screwed it into the outlet boxes. Would it be against code / unsafe to run a ground from the same screw on the outlet box to the new outlet? Or, does the run have to be continuous? Thanks!
If adding ground to an ungrounded recepticle, NEC allows you can add it by any means possible. It doesn't even have to be ran with your current cable. So in your instance yes that is acceptable.
My electrician refuses to ground to neutral on 40A three-prong stove hookup. But now there is no ground at all on the stove chassis. Isn’t this even more dangerous than tying ground to neutral?
I've found that many electricians know how to run romex and wire switches but they don't understand electricity. Sounds weird, but it's true. Get a new electrician.
Wires do not just burn on overload. The breaker trips first. Also if the neural were to break the case would become energized even without any other failure.
100% yes. I have a relative who got a shock from exactly that. The insulation of the electric heating element broke down over time. This caused stray voltage on the stove and a cooking pot on the stove, but there was no path for it. This person touched the cooking pot, and a grounded appliance at the same time, and *zap.* When I looked into it I was like, "who the heck wired this up?" I guess now I know. ;p I also ohmed out all the elements to look for other bad ones, but I do not remember the results anymore.
@@AppliantologyOrg I just bought an LG stovetop and its got 3 wires, red, green and black. Realizing the white is either white or tied to ground. Its an older apartment made in the late 1950s we think. The stove I had running, on a 3 wire plug shocked me as I held a stainless steel skilled I washed and set onto the stove with my hand in the sink/water somehow and got shocked. Noticing this stovetop might be wired so there is no ground either, idk. Previous renters messed with the wiring box and the city sued them, the panel is still off so the breaker wires are all visible Im not touching it; the GFI outlet next to the stove has a green light on? but doesnt work, plug in a coffee maker or ? nothing. Just want to connect the LG stovetop the right way.
Can I get some advice from you about replacing electric cooktop? My outlet has black, white, and red wires, but my new cooktop has black, white and green wires. How should I match the color wires in that case? My wall outlet doesn't have ground wire at all. Thanks
You’ll need to measure voltages to be sure but it sounds like your new wiring is only 120 VAC. You have L1 (black) Neutral (white) and Ground (green). Measure the voltage between black and white to make sure. I’m thinking you’ll only have 129 VAC there.
You have standing potential between the chassis of the dryer and your plumbing. Check the wiring and grounding on your dryer. Make sure the ground is properly connected.
so I have a line from an outlet that has a red wire and a white wire. Then I have a motion sensor light that I'm trying to attach to these wires that has Red Black and Green wires coming out of the light. How would I hook this up?
Hello! My Home has the 4 wire run from the Breaker box BUT my new stove only has 3 Wires and calls for the Neutral and House ground to be tied together... What should I one do when facing this? Thanks!!
For an electric stove supplied with three wire romex, your three conductors are: Neutral, Line 1, and Line 2. Neutral is bonded to the appliance chassis. This is not desirable because if you get an open Neutral in the power wiring, that means the chassis is no longer Grounded. So the NEC was revised to specify 4-conductor romex. This way, Neutral and Ground are separated and Ground has its own conductor all the way back to the circuit breaker panel where it is bonded with Neutral. In your case with the 3-wire romex, existing installations are grandfathered in. The only way to upgrade is to physically remove the 3-wire romex and replace it with 4-wire. This gets real expensive real fast. As long as your 3-wire connection is done properly, just keep using it.
My Thoughts exactly! I'm very surprised these Brand new Dalxo stoves can be even sold in America.. Could you take the house ground and make your own chassis ground to the unit with it's own screw? Thanks again!@@AppliantologyOrg
It sounds like you have a black wire (hot), white wire (other hot wire), and green (or bare) wire (ground/neutral) going to that 3 prong 240volt range outlet, but that's just my guess? If the outlet on your oven is truly 240 volt, then it almost has to be like that. If so, you need to take some red tape and wrap it on the end of the white wire to indicate it's a line (hot), and take some white tape and wrap it on the end of the green (or bare) wire to indicate that it's being used as a neutral. Not a good situation, and should probably be corrected by a licensed electrician.
I understand that when a neutral and ground aren’t separated in a sub-panel the current going through ground can energize metal parts. However if the two wires are separated and there was a fault, why is the current traveling through the same ground safe? Thanks
The ground wire is used for safety if wired correctly. When current goes on it through a fault, it's only for a split second, and it will trip the breaker to the circuit.
Can I make a ground by running a fourth wire to a grounding rod? My basement is unfinished and it would be really easy to run a heavy gauge ground wire to a grounding rod??
No. Your ground has to be part of your electrical system. Simply running a ground wire to a ground rod does not offer protection. Electricity needs to find it's way back to its source. If you did it the way you're thinking, and had a fault, your ground wire and rod would be energized. Now you'd have a dangerous situation outside, especially if you have kids.
Appreciate the video, because much of the misunderstanding regarding ground and neutral can be traced to the 3 wire dryer and range receptacles that were legal and widely accepted though the 1993 NEC (prohibited in 1996) and further complicating this configuration which I firmly believe should have never been permitted in the first place, was the interpretation from local inspectors. I have done renovations in the past and have found 8/2 & 10/2 NM for ranges and dryers respectively, with the ground acting as the bare neutral, this was never technically permitted per the NEC but was apparently permitted in some jurisdictions. Through the 1993 NEC stated that for frames of dryers and ranges grounded with the grounded (neutral) conductor, the neutral must be insulated or bare when part of an SE cable assembly, and shall be no smaller than 10awg.
The history of permission for neutral grounding can trace it's roots to 1942, when metal shortages and rationing during the war prompted manufacturers of electric ranges desperately wishing to sell their products to appeal to the code making panel and ask for special permission. Their request was granted in 1947 for ranges, and 1953 for dryers. Ironically Canada never permitted this, and always required a true ground from the time equipment grounding conductors were required on all 125 and 250 volt circuits in the early 1960s.
Neutral is not a grounding conductor, but it is a grounded conductor.
I work for an electrical company. I was made to i stall the outlet for the 50A 3-way plug using 2 hots and a ground on the neutral lug. It even said "neutral". I protested but eventually lost since his rationale is that this is the way motors are wired. A large device was going to be plgged into this outlet, not a motor. I feel it was the wrong way but I am a new hire, I had to just shut up. Am I wrong?
For three wire outlets, Ground and Neutral are tied together. For four wire outlets, Ground and Neutral are kept separate all the way back to the circuit breaker panel where they are bonded together.
Some appliances don't need a neutral wire because they operate solely on a high voltage (like 240V) where the current flows between two "hot" wires, creating a balanced circuit and negating the need for a return path (neutral) to carry any imbalance; this is typically seen in appliances like electric ovens, water heaters, and clothes dryers when only using their high-power heating elements, which don't require a lower voltage component that would need a neutral wire to function.
Key points to remember:
High voltage circuits:
Appliances that operate solely on a high voltage (like 240V) usually don't need a neutral wire because the current flows directly between the two hot wires, creating a balanced circuit.
No low voltage components:
If an appliance has no internal components that need a lower voltage (like control circuits), it can function without a neutral.
Balanced load:
In a balanced circuit, the current flowing through each hot wire is equal, eliminating the need for a neutral to carry any imbalance.
Thanks for the summary!
Currently have 3 wire but my new stove requires a 4 wire. Can i just a ground to the existing 3 wire or does the whole wire have to be changed out?
You need to run a ground wire to the box.
If you look carefully at your installation instructions for your appliance something interesting happens. The neutral is used to create 120 volts. Originally, the appliances were designed to use only 240v and if they needed 120v for say a light bulb they would use a transformer to make 120v from the 240 v supply. This means the supply source is two lines and a ground. The new appliances can use a neutral to create 120v and ditch the transformer.
The instructions call the center white wire a neutral in a three wire cord diagram. The appliance uses a jumper to connect the “neutral” to the case. For the wall outlet the plug connects to, it is sometimes referred to as a ground.
So is it a ground or a neutral? The appliance connects it to the frame like a ground wire. Does the appliance use the ground or neutral to create 120v? Can’t tell without putting an amp meter on the ground/neutral wire.
Is the wire in the wall a ground or a neutral? Don’t know. To find out one needs to check the breaker box and see where the wire is landed. If it is landed on a neutral bar then it is a neutral. If it is landed on a ground bar then it is a ground.
Confused yet? The secret is appliance manufacturers are not required to go by the “National Electric Code.” They have their own code.
When might you have a situation where the hot wire is touching the chassis AND the neutral has broken/burned off? Could it also happen to the ground wire? Say for instance the hot is touching the chassis, but ground is broken even though neutral is just fine. That could still kill you, I believe.
My point is that I’m not yet convinced about why a ground is any better in the situation that hot touches chassis, than just tying neutral to the chassis. The argument seems to pivot around the neutral being broken at the same time, which to me sounds about as likely as the ground being broken. Please let me know how I’m wrong, I’m trying to learn.
I’ve seen many, many open Neutrals, usually caused by a burnt wire nut on the connection to the appliance.
How would you handle a spa where you only have 2 blacks and a white. Would you have to run a ground all the way to the panel? Could you install a grounding rod at the sub panel/disconnect near the hot tub?
L1 and L2 are basically interchangeable right? I'm hooking up a longer cord for my gasoline generator, and they were inconsistent with the original L1 and L2, but consistent on each end with ground and neutral.
In the past, there were appliances that the neutral and ground were not separated (inside the appliance). That was a good while back, but you still run into them now and then. It was back when things were made to last. I don't believe I have ever seen a single person on an electrician chatboard address this. Is it because they don't know it exists? Or is it because they don't want to say it is out there but they have no comment on it.
240V cooktops, for example.
I think some really old radios and television sets (pre-1960) had a condenser connected between the neutral or what is assumed to be neutral, and the chassis. And because two prong plugs and receptacles, some of which were non-polarized, (meaning both prongs same size) typical of the era, you have a 50-50 chance of inserting the plug in reverse and having a live chassis. And even if the plug and receptacle was polarized there is no assurance that it was wired properly.
Our house was built in 1980 and uses the older 3 wire 240v outlets for the range. I want to replace them with the newer 4 wire outlets. Luckily, they ran 8ga wire with a ground to the box. Unluckily, they cut the ground very short and screwed it into the outlet boxes. Would it be against code / unsafe to run a ground from the same screw on the outlet box to the new outlet? Or, does the run have to be continuous?
Thanks!
Not sure about the NEC code requirements but if the connections are done correctly, then electrically it would work.
If adding ground to an ungrounded recepticle, NEC allows you can add it by any means possible. It doesn't even have to be ran with your current cable. So in your instance yes that is acceptable.
But they are connected to the same bus in the panel less it’s a sub panel which then separates the ground from neutral
My electrician refuses to ground to neutral on 40A three-prong stove hookup. But now there is no ground at all on the stove chassis. Isn’t this even more dangerous than tying ground to neutral?
I've found that many electricians know how to run romex and wire switches but they don't understand electricity. Sounds weird, but it's true. Get a new electrician.
Wires do not just burn on overload. The breaker trips first. Also if the neural were to break the case would become energized even without any other failure.
100% yes. I have a relative who got a shock from exactly that. The insulation of the electric heating element broke down over time. This caused stray voltage on the stove and a cooking pot on the stove, but there was no path for it. This person touched the cooking pot, and a grounded appliance at the same time, and *zap.*
When I looked into it I was like, "who the heck wired this up?" I guess now I know. ;p
I also ohmed out all the elements to look for other bad ones, but I do not remember the results anymore.
@@AppliantologyOrg I just bought an LG stovetop and its got 3 wires, red, green and black. Realizing the white is either white or tied to ground. Its an older apartment made in the late 1950s we think. The stove I had running, on a 3 wire plug shocked me as I held a stainless steel skilled I washed and set onto the stove with my hand in the sink/water somehow and got shocked. Noticing this stovetop might be wired so there is no ground either, idk. Previous renters messed with the wiring box and the city sued them, the panel is still off so the breaker wires are all visible Im not touching it; the GFI outlet next to the stove has a green light on? but doesnt work, plug in a coffee maker or ? nothing. Just want to connect the LG stovetop the right way.
Can I get some advice from you about replacing electric cooktop? My outlet has black, white, and red wires, but my new cooktop has black, white and green wires. How should I match the color wires in that case? My wall outlet doesn't have ground wire at all. Thanks
You’ll need to measure voltages to be sure but it sounds like your new wiring is only 120 VAC. You have L1 (black) Neutral (white) and Ground (green). Measure the voltage between black and white to make sure. I’m thinking you’ll only have 129 VAC there.
Just had a new dryer installed. I noticed that when I touch the dryer and the
faucet at the clothes washer I get a shock. Why?
You have standing potential between the chassis of the dryer and your plumbing. Check the wiring and grounding on your dryer. Make sure the ground is properly connected.
I fixed it. Come to find out that the tech put the neutral wire on the hot side, dummy. @@AppliantologyOrg
What size vreaker should you have for a 220 stove
Usually 50 amp. Should be spec'd out in your installation or use and care guide that came with the range.
We're so connect the ground from a microwave plug
😊
so I have a line from an outlet that has a red wire and a white wire. Then I have a motion sensor light that I'm trying to attach to these wires that has Red Black and Green wires coming out of the light. How would I hook this up?
I appreciate this video!
Hello! My Home has the 4 wire run from the Breaker box BUT my new stove only has 3 Wires and calls for the Neutral and House ground to be tied together... What should I one do when facing this? Thanks!!
For an electric stove supplied with three wire romex, your three conductors are: Neutral, Line 1, and Line 2. Neutral is bonded to the appliance chassis. This is not desirable because if you get an open Neutral in the power wiring, that means the chassis is no longer Grounded. So the NEC was revised to specify 4-conductor romex. This way, Neutral and Ground are separated and Ground has its own conductor all the way back to the circuit breaker panel where it is bonded with Neutral.
In your case with the 3-wire romex, existing installations are grandfathered in. The only way to upgrade is to physically remove the 3-wire romex and replace it with 4-wire. This gets real expensive real fast. As long as your 3-wire connection is done properly, just keep using it.
My Thoughts exactly! I'm very surprised these Brand new Dalxo stoves can be even sold in America.. Could you take the house ground and make your own chassis ground to the unit with it's own screw? Thanks again!@@AppliantologyOrg
Would a non-contact voltage detector detect a charged chassis?
Yes. Always test it on something you know is energized first to make sure it's working properly.
I don't have two hot wires on my 3 wire range. House was built in the 80s. I only have 1 hot, 1 neutral, and 1 ground.
It sounds like you have a black wire (hot), white wire (other hot wire), and green (or bare) wire (ground/neutral) going to that 3 prong 240volt range outlet, but that's just my guess? If the outlet on your oven is truly 240 volt, then it almost has to be like that. If so, you need to take some red tape and wrap it on the end of the white wire to indicate it's a line (hot), and take some white tape and wrap it on the end of the green (or bare) wire to indicate that it's being used as a neutral. Not a good situation, and should probably be corrected by a licensed electrician.
Isnt neutral tied to ground at breaker box
At the panel, yes. At the first means of disconnect. Everywhere else the ground and neutral should be separated
I understand that when a neutral and ground aren’t separated in a sub-panel the current going through ground can energize metal parts. However if the two wires are separated and there was a fault, why is the current traveling through the same ground safe? Thanks
The ground wire is used for safety if wired correctly. When current goes on it through a fault, it's only for a split second, and it will trip the breaker to the circuit.
Thank you
You're welcome
Can I make a ground by running a fourth wire to a grounding rod? My basement is unfinished and it would be really easy to run a heavy gauge ground wire to a grounding rod??
No. Your ground has to be part of your electrical system. Simply running a ground wire to a ground rod does not offer protection. Electricity needs to find it's way back to its source. If you did it the way you're thinking, and had a fault, your ground wire and rod would be energized. Now you'd have a dangerous situation outside, especially if you have kids.
Absolutely do not do this
Thank you