My ramblings about the Werehog and how I started to like it's gameplay more. My Twitter: / chaser_tech My Twitch: / chaser_tech #sonicthehedgehog #sonicunleashed #werehog
I always find the Werehog to be so cool yet scary to me as a kid! It still is but unfortunately I am at the point of my life that being attracted into werewolves is now a major part of my life now, for 2 years. Humans are not even attractive at all in my eyes anymore due to amount of shitty people I encounter over the years. I'll be very happily to accept a werewolf to maul me to death in the middle of the woods at night! That sounds so fucking sexy!
As a kid i loved the werwolf levels more than the day ones, simply because it was more dmc, and just like you, it was all i knew
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And they were much easier cause the emphasis on platforming and beat em up. You do not know how much lives I lost on the speed sections intact I liked and still like where hog sonic more than his normal game play even now except the one from colors as its pretty easy for me infact 2 easy and I wish I can quick step on command.
I keep saying that if it was Knuckles then nobody would be complaining, even if he felt as slow. It's basically sa1 Knuckles, but he has a run button instead of a glide button. I'm glad somebody who's qualified as an action beat 'em up player _and_ a sonic fan is actually trying to give it a fair shake
I think it would've also helped if Day Sonic didn't one-hit kill most enemies with a homing attack. Then the Werehog wouldn't feel so comparatively weak. Although that change might come with it's own problems, so I get why Sonic Team wouldn't do it until Frontiers.
All Kunckles had was a few punch’s and Drill slams the Werehogs has ridiculous amount of combos with Huge Punch’s and Slash’s mixed in with Ariel Combat, Grapples, Shield Cancel and a Rage Mode being Unleash I really don’t think Kucnkels could work like this in the same Regard as the Werehog had many more abilities that just Punch’s and Strength.
@@gogetathestrongestfusion yes, after the frontiers update it seems more to me like sonic fans just dont want anything that isn't automated-go-fast. Even people who wanted a difficulty increase are complaining, smh. I swear, it feels like we have no idea what we want and just complain for the sake of it
Too bad we most likely won’t get a game where Knuckles can do all that. I agree wholeheartedly that it would’ve worked much better if he had that gameplay style. Just throw in his climbing and gliding and you’d be golden.
@@ChaserTech I think the major critique is that it's slow compared to normal Sonic gameplay. Which is true, but similar things exist in SA1 and 2. And even classic Sonic games have levels that slow the pace down. I'd argue this is the best "slow" gameplay we've seen from a Sonic game, but because people see it's slow and refuse to experiment or invest into the Werehog they just call it bad. But for me pummeling enemies with crazy combos is decent fun and the platform challenges provided are a nice change of pace from the daytime stages
It actually kind of surprises me just how much thought they put into the Werehog's gameplay on reflection: - The instant kill QTE's have longer or shorter timing windows depending on how much health the enemy has left meaning that you can risk doing them earlier and killing them quicker with about half a second to hit the button prompts (and failing in this means they restore all health) or play it safe and lower their health some more. The QTE's do give you points so these are worth going for. - The shield seems like a bit of weird design choice at first glance but (and i'm probably giving them more credit than they deserve with this) it might be because of how powerful the God of War block was that they made it that way. It can block everything still but it has a limit that you have to be mindful of. - Jumping off those poles that you can fling yourself in 3 directions from during the arm stretch animation puts you into a nice little jump that the game never explains once but serves as a nice bit of hidden tech to speed up platforming. - Every enemy can be grappled and knocked into each other, ringed out, and in the case of enemies like the flame throwers or blizzard blowers, used for their special effects sort of like a gun which is more enemy interaction than even most modern action games have. I think if Sega had set aside a team to work exclusively on action games and polish up the elements here, they probably could've had a nice sub series going because you can really tell the team wanted to do some crazy things here and maybe if the game weren't being split in two halves, it could've realized that potential. Good shout out on Super Sami Roll by the way, that game deserves way more attention.
I've always maintained the opinion that Unleashed's night levels were a really nice introduction towards stylish action gameplay for children (which as we know is the intended audience for Sonic games right?) and even casual gamers that find games like DMC too intimidating to approach. The fact Unleashed released as the next major Sonic game to follow 06 was what led to the Werehog being so readily dismissed at its time of release; people wanted to see a return to form for Sonic and beat 'em up gameplay was too radical a departure.
@@artistanthony1007Just because a slightly off-putting monster is at the end of the game doesn't mean that the core audience is - children (though nothing wrong if gou are an adult playing this, since it also appears to all ages)
If i may ask, what are some of your own observations about Unleashed's combat system (or specific moves or enemy behaviour/attacks) that didn't come up in the video?
@@jurtheorc8117 well, here's a few things I've noticed: - Each and every attacks have three different attributes: Knockback, Daze, and Guard Break. Only one is attributed to the beginning moves, but there are exceptions. - Later medium enemies and all Bee enemies have the ability to know your attacks, and can notice the patterns of your attacks. This gives them the chance to guard and/or dodge your attacks. - The Hit Counter actually builds up more if you have less Strength stat. So this is an optimal way to gain points without QTE. - As well, playing the game without Strength is a different BREED of challenge. I'll tell you that much. There's other stuff I've uncovered within the game's XML scripts. But I need to take note of them.
@@kinggalactix Oh man, those are some in-depth observations of the combat system! Never heard about those three properties until now. Gives further idea to what makes the bee enemies so tough (see: annoying), if they're able to essentially input read like that. Thank you for taking the time to write and share all those findings thus far! Doesn't go unappreciated!
I didn’t get to play HD Unleashed until earlier this year. I was surprised that I actually enjoyed some of the Werehog stages, even if some went on for a while.
You mentioned Sega possibly making a game with a similar concept to the werehog. You know who would be a perfect fit? Ristar. I'm pretty sure the werehog's gameplay was even inspired by Ristar in the 1st place.
Finished the video in full by now. Wow dude, you really went in-depth on stuff beyond simply the Werehog's moves. I appreciated that you went into historical context, and even went a few steps further on the combat, by giving a few analyses of the enemies and level design *alongside* said Werehog moves. I think i've said this before on the DMC5 combat video or a community update, but i really value dissections and analysis videos like these. You have a nice and casual way of talking too. I wonder if this game had something like a pause menu on/off toggle for later moves, the combat would benefit for it. Only thing i didn't hear much about was how sometimes could be used as weapons against one another. Like the frost/fire fans with wacky velcro arms, as TearOfGrace described them in his Sonic Unleashed series. The utilization of enemies as weapons/tools seems like a concept for which more could be done with. Though that's kinda nitpicking on my end-- but that could be tied into your wish for how combat could be integrated into platforming itself. Perhaps something to think about. I've thought about combat in 3D platformer style games myself before, thanks to James from the channel Nitro Rad, if you've ever heard of him. He reviews a *lot* of horror and platformer games, and he does it quite well, so i definitely recommend checking him out. He was also very positive on Super Sami Roll! Though he seems to have a distaste for more extensive combat in the latter genre, to the point where i feel he *severely* undersold the combat system of the obscure PS2 title Kya: Dark Lineage. James claimed that the combat only slowed down the momentum of the platforming action, and that "button mashing works just fine" while complaining about how often enemies block. So i wanted to look into what made the game's combat system tick, and look at other platformers' ways of combat as well. Thus, to tie my findings into your interest in mixing combat options with platforming: I present to you Rayman 3. It's definitely no Hack-and-Slasher or Character Action, at the basis it's jumping, running, evading and attacking back at the same time, utilizing Rayman's weird mix of ranged/melee thanks to his physical attributes. Here's the thing: Rayman 3 has these temporary powerups called Combat Fatigues, about five total. And nigh every one (spare the Throttlecopter) has utility for both combat and traversal. However specific some instances may be. -Heavy Metal is both big damage and breaking barriers. -Shock Rocket is for essentially sniping enemies from a distance -Vortex Fist makes enemies shrink, de-powering them to make them easier for combat, as well as lowers certain screw-shaped platforms -And Lockjaw is probably the best of all. Dual chain-mounted bear traps that can latch onto enemies and deal continuous damage through electric shocks, as well as act as grappling hooks. The game's quite loved as is, but one could probably do *more* with these concepts and ideas. As is, i believe Rayman 3 is one of the best instances of marrying combat and traversal utility into singular tools. And... i hope these findings were interesting to read through. If not, i apologize for wasting your time. But either way, thank you for giving me your time of day, as well as for making this video. Wish you good luck and fun on future projects!
Thank you for being one of the few people who actually put effort into playing and learning about this game before immediately basing the entire experience off its worst elements, I never understood why the fanbase was so dead set on only seeing the lows when the highs were so good. If we judged SA1 solely on Big the Cat or Frontiers on its pinball section, final boss, or its egregious pop-in.I'm glad you were able to find the more nuanced aspects of this game that really enhance the experience (I actually didn't know that you could guard cancel shoryuken and remain grounded, so that was a neat little treat.) This game undoubtedly has its flaws, some minor, some more impactful, but overall, I agree it's a very enjoyable experience that I wish more people gave a shot. That being said, I'm interested on what you have to say about Frontiers' combat system.
I just want enemies scalling to the player's strength/experience, as I'm need of an actual challenge, something like an infinite wave of enemies (like Spark 3) would do, basically make the upstairs section of Arid Sands either have more waves or just be infinite. And that's literally my ONLY complain about the Werehog...that and how the PS2 version handled things... The Dark Gaia Guardian boss fight in there is SO cool, instead of him being invincible until you move the boxes, you actually have to fight him close range, and eventually he'll start to fly and shoot lightning which is badass. You also have some moves exclusive from that version that I would've loved seeing in the "superior" version. Also the levels are more variated as every continent has separated night stages, each one expanding on the first one, both mechanically and visually. The ambientation from that version is...I LOVE IT. It doesn't just stick to an especific aesthetic, it EXPANDS on the theme and makes everything look BEATIFUL and make way more sense, you literally fight and platform in a GIANT tree in Adabat, while getting a nice view from there. Shamar has a temple. Chun-Nan a waterfall you can climb and mountains, etc, etc. I really wish a remastered version for Unleashed came out, with some of these different views from those places applied on the already existing Werehog stages. I love the Werehog because in both versions you need to experiment with the combat to get a better and more fun experience, as the PS3/Xbox versions have the superior combat I played them to death and here I am, LOVING EVERYTHING about the Werehog, from concept, mechanics, QTEs, screams, personality and especially, the Were-Hammer, favorite move in the game ngl. I literally didn't learn ANYTHING from the combat off of this video because I already have many hours on the game. SEGA/Sonic Team HAS to bring it back, at least for a Spin-Off, just imagine, a game not related to the mainline stories which features the Werehog as the only type of gameplay and expands upon the original game's mechanics greatly, and doesn't stick to real life places, instead it uses new/reused Sonic-like zones, like Nighttime Green Hill with the only light being the moon and random torches OR fighting in FREAKING MYSTIC CAVE while having to avoid pits, spikes and breaking bridges. I'd buy that immediately. Maybe y'all could tell already, but this form feels so unique it's my favorite thing about this franchise.
Another great video, Chaser. I have never played Unleashed, but I've watched a ton of reviews and every single one of them just throws the Werehog's combat under the bus without saying much. Of course, if you go and check these channels to see if they have ANY high level gameplay of deep games, you won't find a damn thing. You're always coming in clutch with these videos!
People avoid high level gameplay because in order to get S rank you need points, QTE finishers give a lot of them and fully leveled werehog kills enemies very fast. That means the scoring system incentivizes playing in awkward way of not being too efficient in combat and not doing complex combos because they would kill enemies too fast and with less score.
I'm so glad to hear your point at 9:00, I never understood people who see a combat system and are just ok with spamming one combo for 5+ hours. Then they blame the game lmao. Like if you're playing a game, why not try to have fun with it and experiment, especially when they give you a ton of combos to use
The hd unleashed gameplay is very fun, with great combos and good platforming, the wii version has ok level design but the combos and controls are so fucking stiff. And it has less combos due to being limited by the controller options. Plus the motion mash if you play on wii remote is hell. I wish frontiers had combos more like this game, since the moves having a specific use and countering certain enemies is there, but due to them all being a button combo that plays a cutscene afterwards you can't string them together in different ways and make the most out of them.
Man I remember watching Cobanermani456 doing a playthrough of Sonic Unleashed and it was one of my favourite Sonic series to watch. I always thought the Werehog form was cool and all the night stages were nice additions to make the game unique. I wonder what happened to him, he hasn't uploaded in 5 years. :/ Edit: Don't worry, he didn't die but I did found out why :(
I got this game when I was 6 on the Wii and i would later get the Xbox version in my teens. I love these games, and i always felt like Unleashed was way ahead of its time. Its so ahead of its time that it took 2 more console generations just for the game to run perfectly lmfao
I've always loved the werehog and I honestly would love to see it again in some kind of remaster or new game. It was such a fun concept. I also liked how the werehog was kind of like a wrestler with some of his combos.
Problem is Dark Gaia took the essence that made Sonic a Werehog and doubt Sonic would want to intentionally blow up the planet to just get it back and be the Werehog again.
I'll never boot up Unleashed for the werehog but on my replay, I was honestly shocked with how fun he could be and what could I do with him, discovering shield cancelling was a game changer for me
Kinda adds up. That’s how I remember adventure 2 kinda being. The sonic and shadow missions were the most fun for how fast paced they were. The knuckles and rouge missions were mostly fun but a bit tedious. But the Tails and Eggman combat missions were mostly a slog with occasional moments of brilliance. Never played adventure 1 but I imagine it was similar.
You really should man, they're really variated and some have great stories or concepts that makes them incredibly original (2000s games specifically). Also THE one thing they all have in common is the soundtrack...perfect in every game.
Out of the games of this time general period, one I always think of is G-Force. You'd think a game about guinea pigs meant to sell with a disney movie would be hot garbage, but if you set it to hard mode it almost plays like a weird proto-dark souls combat wise. Anyone that hasn't played the xbox, wii, or pc version I highly recommend giving it a try.
Great video! I think my favourite Werehog segments in the entire game were the ones in EggmanLand, the enemies there were veryyy agressive and I actually felt like I had to be engaged 24/7 if I didn’t want to die Not to mention, that banger eggmanland night theme There’s also some other cool tech we’ve found outside of the shield cancel, like attack looping and attack saving When in Unleash mode, the Werehog can “loop” both of the ultimate ground combos and any ariel combos that are of the same type, which makes for some pretty sick finishers on enemies, like using the crescent moon strike twice in a row followed by a double punch crush or a pile driver Attack saving is a tech that allows you to “save” a running dash attack and activate it simply though jumping at a stand still, with no actual running jump needed. You execute a running dash attack (either the Y button one or the X button one), shield cancel, and then you can jump and activate a second one without actually having to dash and jump at all. Attack Looping: twitter.com/3caramelg122/status/1561103352439635968?s=46&t=Ui_M0pZ1razszT-Le-ZOnw Attack Saving: twitter.com/3caramelg122/status/1637179822370705408?s=46&t=Ui_M0pZ1razszT-Le-ZOnw
Always nice to see someone have an open mind with the Werehog, great video! I highly recommend checking out the DLC for Sonic Unleashed if you want more Werehog since they take the good parts of the Werehog and flesh them out even more, both in terms of combat and platforming.
oooooh yeeeeeesssssssss OOOOOOH YEEEEEEEESSSSSS OOOOOOOOOOH-- i've never played Unleashed before. (at least not on PS3 or Xbox360) BUT I'M HERE FOR THIS VIDEO because it legit seems like something interesting, and there hasn't been much in-depth look at the Werehog as a whole. The last combo list video on YT i could find that shows off all Werehog moves is from around... over ten years ago, i believe. So i'm excited to see your findings and hear your observations!
I think adding stylish combat to Sonic would blend pretty well all things considered. The werehog was a good attempt but it's clear that it wasn't the main focus and lacked the polish it needed to make it something I looked forward to like in DMC, on top of having overly long levels with too many annoying mechanics Frontiers comes closer to an ideal Sonic beat em up, but Sonics limited move pool and RPG mechanics makes it hard to engage with it If SEGA put more confidence in a combat system for a Sonic game, I think we could have something truly special on our hands
FINALLY SOMEONE ELSE SAID IT! I also thought platforming was the best part about Werehog and it should take more focus. I never liked the combat either, but I guess I never gave it a fair shot, exactly like old you. Maybe I'll have to give it another try eventually.
I remember hearing about the werehog and as stupid as I thought it was I was like , I’m not going to right the game off because of that. When I first started I’m like it’s ok I don’t hate it but I love the day stages. However I’m very critical on myself and idk know if it was a regular or side mission but I couldn’t beat of the missions that’s in the place based off Africa. I was getting so pissed at myself I’m like I’m so fuckin worthless I can’t beat a damn kids game. After that I loved the werehog even though I didn’t have trouble with any other day stages. Hell I even beat eggman land first try. I’m replaying generations and first run of super stars but I’m excited to replay this game or start it soon with others. But I’m playing like 10 games rn lol
I remember being so hyped for Unleashed before its release as a kid. Specifically for the werehog combat. I remember playing the nighttime levels almost as much as the daytime, honestly. While I wasn't a pro at the combat or anything, it was fun screwing around with all the moves. For a first attempt at a gamestyle like this, Sonic Team did a pretty decent job. You can tell they did their homework with it while still trying to make it its own thing and that's what I respect about it the most.
Me, personally, I prefer Wii's Unleashed Mode. The wii just made it feel more like an increase in power than the xbox version could and I genuinely enjoyed it.
If they brought back the combat gameplay from Sonic unleashed I would ignore it was knuckles having a combat gameplay but he runs as fast as he was in sonic adventure 2 and has ability to glide
I still really don’t like that people keep talking as if Sonic’s Werehog form is a separate character from Sonic. Call it a pet peeve if you will, but it still really annoys me.
I loved just unlocking all the moves and only leveling up damage just my a small margin so I could use all my moves In a scenario, its so fun to look at
Only complaint for me is the claw attacks not staggering the big enemies despite doing less damage. You can't really Crowd Control without lining up enemies or using werewheel rush.
I picked this game up again (before returning it cuz tails missions killed it for me), and compared to the video game knowledge i had back when i was 12, werehog combat was super easy for me to get into after an experience of playing multiple character action games. I think it got such a bad rap because daytime sonic's mechanics doesn't train a player to use something "situationally" compared to werehog's combo trees. Those stages are mostly based around reaction time. It really is a different game. Great video!
Devil may cry does have jump cancel, guard flying and idk how to talk about that, but what about sonic unleashed? shield cancel, yes the shield cancel in this game like oml
If you want the Werehog to be faster, master using Unleashed Mode, that vault Spin Jump-esque move when jumping via the ledges & poles and Spinning Needle Attack. I have a video going up the Clock Tower and show just how fast you can make him.
I think the werehog stuff should've been a different character, and had more variety in music. My two biggest issues, that and the length of some of the missions is a bit annoying.
Sonic unleashed isn't exception in whats the point of mixing Dmc 3...combo done from spiral, sword thos, Agnieszka and rudra flamenco forward and Agni and rudra charge:) Heck Vergil can demolish enemies by Just one force Age combo and spaming swords durring dt Even if you can do formations, involve bwolf and zoning woth forceage and Yamato or setuping:)
I remember I used to trigger my friends by saying "Sonic is ALWAYS a Were-hog."
Were means "man". And he's always an anthropomorphic 'hog lol
I always find the Werehog to be so cool yet scary to me as a kid!
It still is but unfortunately I am at the point of my life that being attracted into werewolves is now a major part of my life now, for 2 years. Humans are not even attractive at all in my eyes anymore due to amount of shitty people I encounter over the years. I'll be very happily to accept a werewolf to maul me to death in the middle of the woods at night! That sounds so fucking sexy!
@@haaxxx9 Woah dude, are you pulling my chain?
@@JagoShogun Hm... Nah.
@@haaxxx9 lmao. Dude it's TMI to tell us you love werewolves. My comment wasnt remotely sexual.
@@JagoShogun Wait so you're not a werewolf lover like me? Ah *FUCK.* It's too late to delete it since you saw my comment and know it by now. I GO NOW!
As a kid i loved the werwolf levels more than the day ones, simply because it was more dmc, and just like you, it was all i knew
And they were much easier cause the emphasis on platforming and beat em up. You do not know how much lives I lost on the speed sections intact I liked and still like where hog sonic more than his normal game play even now except the one from colors as its pretty easy for me infact 2 easy and I wish I can quick step on command.
(checks username) "Curazi Dante"
Yep, checks out.
@@waldoc2829 yes because God forbid someone actually liking the werehog what a devious crime!!
@@xux6317 Nothing wrong with it at all whatsoever. I wasn't implying anything, I was making a neutral observation
I keep saying that if it was Knuckles then nobody would be complaining, even if he felt as slow. It's basically sa1 Knuckles, but he has a run button instead of a glide button. I'm glad somebody who's qualified as an action beat 'em up player _and_ a sonic fan is actually trying to give it a fair shake
I think it would've also helped if Day Sonic didn't one-hit kill most enemies with a homing attack. Then the Werehog wouldn't feel so comparatively weak.
Although that change might come with it's own problems, so I get why Sonic Team wouldn't do it until Frontiers.
All Kunckles had was a few punch’s and Drill slams the Werehogs has ridiculous amount of combos with Huge Punch’s and Slash’s mixed in with Ariel Combat, Grapples, Shield Cancel and a Rage Mode being Unleash I really don’t think Kucnkels could work like this in the same Regard as the Werehog had many more abilities that just Punch’s and Strength.
@@gogetathestrongestfusion yes, after the frontiers update it seems more to me like sonic fans just dont want anything that isn't automated-go-fast. Even people who wanted a difficulty increase are complaining, smh. I swear, it feels like we have no idea what we want and just complain for the sake of it
Too bad we most likely won’t get a game where Knuckles can do all that. I agree wholeheartedly that it would’ve worked much better if he had that gameplay style. Just throw in his climbing and gliding and you’d be golden.
I like the Werehog way more than any boost game
I think the werehog is definitely overhated. Sure it isn't the most fun thing ever, but when decently upgraded it can be fun
Yeah idk why it gets so much hate. I'm just glad that people have been more open about the werehog now lol.
@@ChaserTech I think the major critique is that it's slow compared to normal Sonic gameplay. Which is true, but similar things exist in SA1 and 2. And even classic Sonic games have levels that slow the pace down. I'd argue this is the best "slow" gameplay we've seen from a Sonic game, but because people see it's slow and refuse to experiment or invest into the Werehog they just call it bad. But for me pummeling enemies with crazy combos is decent fun and the platform challenges provided are a nice change of pace from the daytime stages
It actually kind of surprises me just how much thought they put into the Werehog's gameplay on reflection:
- The instant kill QTE's have longer or shorter timing windows depending on how much health the enemy has left meaning that you can risk doing them earlier and killing them quicker with about half a second to hit the button prompts (and failing in this means they restore all health) or play it safe and lower their health some more. The QTE's do give you points so these are worth going for.
- The shield seems like a bit of weird design choice at first glance but (and i'm probably giving them more credit than they deserve with this) it might be because of how powerful the God of War block was that they made it that way. It can block everything still but it has a limit that you have to be mindful of.
- Jumping off those poles that you can fling yourself in 3 directions from during the arm stretch animation puts you into a nice little jump that the game never explains once but serves as a nice bit of hidden tech to speed up platforming.
- Every enemy can be grappled and knocked into each other, ringed out, and in the case of enemies like the flame throwers or blizzard blowers, used for their special effects sort of like a gun which is more enemy interaction than even most modern action games have.
I think if Sega had set aside a team to work exclusively on action games and polish up the elements here, they probably could've had a nice sub series going because you can really tell the team wanted to do some crazy things here and maybe if the game weren't being split in two halves, it could've realized that potential.
Good shout out on Super Sami Roll by the way, that game deserves way more attention.
I'll give the unleashed werehog sections this, they have better combat than frontiers
this is why we need sonic unleashed 2 (it's sonicover) 😩
Very true
I've always maintained the opinion that Unleashed's night levels were a really nice introduction towards stylish action gameplay for children (which as we know is the intended audience for Sonic games right?) and even casual gamers that find games like DMC too intimidating to approach. The fact Unleashed released as the next major Sonic game to follow 06 was what led to the Werehog being so readily dismissed at its time of release; people wanted to see a return to form for Sonic and beat 'em up gameplay was too radical a departure.
Perfect Dark Gaia Transformation would like to say a few words.
@@artistanthony1007Just because a slightly off-putting monster is at the end of the game doesn't mean that the core audience is - children (though nothing wrong if gou are an adult playing this, since it also appears to all ages)
@@HruMan360Children love horror stuff presented correctly. Otherwise FNaF and genocide runs of Undertale wouldn't be as popular as they are.
I must agree with a lot of these points! As something of an Unleashed enthusiast myself, it's a pretty solid combat system with thought out systems.
If i may ask, what are some of your own observations about Unleashed's combat system (or specific moves or enemy behaviour/attacks) that didn't come up in the video?
@@jurtheorc8117 well, here's a few things I've noticed:
- Each and every attacks have three different attributes: Knockback, Daze, and Guard Break. Only one is attributed to the beginning moves, but there are exceptions.
- Later medium enemies and all Bee enemies have the ability to know your attacks, and can notice the patterns of your attacks. This gives them the chance to guard and/or dodge your attacks.
- The Hit Counter actually builds up more if you have less Strength stat. So this is an optimal way to gain points without QTE.
- As well, playing the game without Strength is a different BREED of challenge. I'll tell you that much.
There's other stuff I've uncovered within the game's XML scripts. But I need to take note of them.
@@kinggalactix Oh man, those are some in-depth observations of the combat system! Never heard about those three properties until now. Gives further idea to what makes the bee enemies so tough (see: annoying), if they're able to essentially input read like that.
Thank you for taking the time to write and share all those findings thus far! Doesn't go unappreciated!
@@jurtheorc8117 no worries! I'm still learning about this stuff, but I'll do my best
@@kinggalactixawesome explanations! any speedruns or 'perfect' playthroughs you suggest that demonstrate some of the things you mentioned?
I didn’t get to play HD Unleashed until earlier this year. I was surprised that I actually enjoyed some of the Werehog stages, even if some went on for a while.
You mentioned Sega possibly making a game with a similar concept to the werehog. You know who would be a perfect fit? Ristar. I'm pretty sure the werehog's gameplay was even inspired by Ristar in the 1st place.
Petition to get Ristar out of retirement...
Yes
I love unleashed
Criminally underrated just like this channel.
Finished the video in full by now. Wow dude, you really went in-depth on stuff beyond simply the Werehog's moves. I appreciated that you went into historical context, and even went a few steps further on the combat, by giving a few analyses of the enemies and level design *alongside* said Werehog moves.
I think i've said this before on the DMC5 combat video or a community update, but i really value dissections and analysis videos like these. You have a nice and casual way of talking too.
I wonder if this game had something like a pause menu on/off toggle for later moves, the combat would benefit for it. Only thing i didn't hear much about was how sometimes could be used as weapons against one another.
Like the frost/fire fans with wacky velcro arms, as TearOfGrace described them in his Sonic Unleashed series. The utilization of enemies as weapons/tools seems like a concept for which more could be done with.
Though that's kinda nitpicking on my end-- but that could be tied into your wish for how combat could be integrated into platforming itself. Perhaps something to think about.
I've thought about combat in 3D platformer style games myself before, thanks to James from the channel Nitro Rad, if you've ever heard of him. He reviews a *lot* of horror and platformer games, and he does it quite well, so i definitely recommend checking him out. He was also very positive on Super Sami Roll!
Though he seems to have a distaste for more extensive combat in the latter genre, to the point where i feel he *severely* undersold the combat system of the obscure PS2 title Kya: Dark Lineage.
James claimed that the combat only slowed down the momentum of the platforming action, and that "button mashing works just fine" while complaining about how often enemies block.
So i wanted to look into what made the game's combat system tick, and look at other platformers' ways of combat as well.
Thus, to tie my findings into your interest in mixing combat options with platforming:
I present to you Rayman 3.
It's definitely no Hack-and-Slasher or Character Action, at the basis it's jumping, running, evading and attacking back at the same time, utilizing Rayman's weird mix of ranged/melee thanks to his physical attributes.
Here's the thing: Rayman 3 has these temporary powerups called Combat Fatigues, about five total. And nigh every one (spare the Throttlecopter) has utility for both combat and traversal. However specific some instances may be.
-Heavy Metal is both big damage and breaking barriers.
-Shock Rocket is for essentially sniping enemies from a distance
-Vortex Fist makes enemies shrink, de-powering them to make them easier for combat, as well as lowers certain screw-shaped platforms
-And Lockjaw is probably the best of all. Dual chain-mounted bear traps that can latch onto enemies and deal continuous damage through electric shocks, as well as act as grappling hooks.
The game's quite loved as is, but one could probably do *more* with these concepts and ideas.
As is, i believe Rayman 3 is one of the best instances of marrying combat and traversal utility into singular tools. And... i hope these findings were interesting to read through. If not, i apologize for wasting your time.
But either way, thank you for giving me your time of day, as well as for making this video. Wish you good luck and fun on future projects!
Thank you for being one of the few people who actually put effort into playing and learning about this game before immediately basing the entire experience off its worst elements, I never understood why the fanbase was so dead set on only seeing the lows when the highs were so good. If we judged SA1 solely on Big the Cat or Frontiers on its pinball section, final boss, or its egregious pop-in.I'm glad you were able to find the more nuanced aspects of this game that really enhance the experience (I actually didn't know that you could guard cancel shoryuken and remain grounded, so that was a neat little treat.)
This game undoubtedly has its flaws, some minor, some more impactful, but overall, I agree it's a very enjoyable experience that I wish more people gave a shot. That being said, I'm interested on what you have to say about Frontiers' combat system.
Thats a stupid comparision because the examples u gave are less than 5 percent of the game while the werehog is upwards to 80 percent
I just want enemies scalling to the player's strength/experience, as I'm need of an actual challenge, something like an infinite wave of enemies (like Spark 3) would do, basically make the upstairs section of Arid Sands either have more waves or just be infinite.
And that's literally my ONLY complain about the Werehog...that and how the PS2 version handled things...
The Dark Gaia Guardian boss fight in there is SO cool, instead of him being invincible until you move the boxes, you actually have to fight him close range, and eventually he'll start to fly and shoot lightning which is badass.
You also have some moves exclusive from that version that I would've loved seeing in the "superior" version.
Also the levels are more variated as every continent has separated night stages, each one expanding on the first one, both mechanically and visually.
The ambientation from that version is...I LOVE IT. It doesn't just stick to an especific aesthetic, it EXPANDS on the theme and makes everything look BEATIFUL and make way more sense, you literally fight and platform in a GIANT tree in Adabat, while getting a nice view from there. Shamar has a temple. Chun-Nan a waterfall you can climb and mountains, etc, etc. I really wish a remastered version for Unleashed came out, with some of these different views from those places applied on the already existing Werehog stages.
I love the Werehog because in both versions you need to experiment with the combat to get a better and more fun experience, as the PS3/Xbox versions have the superior combat I played them to death and here I am, LOVING EVERYTHING about the Werehog, from concept, mechanics, QTEs, screams, personality and especially, the Were-Hammer, favorite move in the game ngl. I literally didn't learn ANYTHING from the combat off of this video because I already have many hours on the game.
SEGA/Sonic Team HAS to bring it back, at least for a Spin-Off, just imagine, a game not related to the mainline stories which features the Werehog as the only type of gameplay and expands upon the original game's mechanics greatly, and doesn't stick to real life places, instead it uses new/reused Sonic-like zones, like Nighttime Green Hill with the only light being the moon and random torches OR fighting in FREAKING MYSTIC CAVE while having to avoid pits, spikes and breaking bridges. I'd buy that immediately.
Maybe y'all could tell already, but this form feels so unique it's my favorite thing about this franchise.
Another great video, Chaser.
I have never played Unleashed, but I've watched a ton of reviews and every single one of them just throws the Werehog's combat under the bus without saying much. Of course, if you go and check these channels to see if they have ANY high level gameplay of deep games, you won't find a damn thing.
You're always coming in clutch with these videos!
People avoid high level gameplay because in order to get S rank you need points, QTE finishers give a lot of them and fully leveled werehog kills enemies very fast. That means the scoring system incentivizes playing in awkward way of not being too efficient in combat and not doing complex combos because they would kill enemies too fast and with less score.
I'm so glad to hear your point at 9:00, I never understood people who see a combat system and are just ok with spamming one combo for 5+ hours. Then they blame the game lmao. Like if you're playing a game, why not try to have fun with it and experiment, especially when they give you a ton of combos to use
An actual good video about the werehog? No way
I always enjoyed the Werehog stages. Like em more than the day stages
Egg dragoon (from unleashed ofc) is one of the best bosses in the franchise.
Chamge my mind.
The hd unleashed gameplay is very fun, with great combos and good platforming, the wii version has ok level design but the combos and controls are so fucking stiff. And it has less combos due to being limited by the controller options. Plus the motion mash if you play on wii remote is hell. I wish frontiers had combos more like this game, since the moves having a specific use and countering certain enemies is there, but due to them all being a button combo that plays a cutscene afterwards you can't string them together in different ways and make the most out of them.
Man I remember watching Cobanermani456 doing a playthrough of Sonic Unleashed and it was one of my favourite Sonic series to watch. I always thought the Werehog form was cool and all the night stages were nice additions to make the game unique. I wonder what happened to him, he hasn't uploaded in 5 years. :/
Edit: Don't worry, he didn't die but I did found out why :(
I got this game when I was 6 on the Wii and i would later get the Xbox version in my teens. I love these games, and i always felt like Unleashed was way ahead of its time. Its so ahead of its time that it took 2 more console generations just for the game to run perfectly lmfao
I felt this way about the reboot Spyro games.
I've always loved the werehog and I honestly would love to see it again in some kind of remaster or new game. It was such a fun concept. I also liked how the werehog was kind of like a wrestler with some of his combos.
Problem is Dark Gaia took the essence that made Sonic a Werehog and doubt Sonic would want to intentionally blow up the planet to just get it back and be the Werehog again.
I'll never boot up Unleashed for the werehog but on my replay, I was honestly shocked with how fun he could be and what could I do with him, discovering shield cancelling was a game changer for me
Kinda adds up. That’s how I remember adventure 2 kinda being. The sonic and shadow missions were the most fun for how fast paced they were. The knuckles and rouge missions were mostly fun but a bit tedious. But the Tails and Eggman combat missions were mostly a slog with occasional moments of brilliance. Never played adventure 1 but I imagine it was similar.
I've never really played a Sonic game and I can't believe the one you've made me interested in is Unleashed of all things lol. Great video, Chaser.
You really should man, they're really variated and some have great stories or concepts that makes them incredibly original (2000s games specifically). Also THE one thing they all have in common is the soundtrack...perfect in every game.
Out of the games of this time general period, one I always think of is G-Force. You'd think a game about guinea pigs meant to sell with a disney movie would be hot garbage, but if you set it to hard mode it almost plays like a weird proto-dark souls combat wise. Anyone that hasn't played the xbox, wii, or pc version I highly recommend giving it a try.
Great video!
I think my favourite Werehog segments in the entire game were the ones in EggmanLand, the enemies there were veryyy agressive and I actually felt like I had to be engaged 24/7 if I didn’t want to die
Not to mention, that banger eggmanland night theme
There’s also some other cool tech we’ve found outside of the shield cancel, like attack looping and attack saving
When in Unleash mode, the Werehog can “loop” both of the ultimate ground combos and any ariel combos that are of the same type, which makes for some pretty sick finishers on enemies, like using the crescent moon strike twice in a row followed by a double punch crush or a pile driver
Attack saving is a tech that allows you to “save” a running dash attack and activate it simply though jumping at a stand still, with no actual running jump needed. You execute a running dash attack (either the Y button one or the X button one), shield cancel, and then you can jump and activate a second one without actually having to dash and jump at all.
Attack Looping: twitter.com/3caramelg122/status/1561103352439635968?s=46&t=Ui_M0pZ1razszT-Le-ZOnw
Attack Saving: twitter.com/3caramelg122/status/1637179822370705408?s=46&t=Ui_M0pZ1razszT-Le-ZOnw
Ayo you on to something with that Super Sami Roll game
The quick time events and different combos you can do made me love werehog stages even as a kid
really cool to see people come back to one of my favorites. always liked the form and experimenting with the combos. glad its getting respect now.
Always found the Werehog sections awkward, but still good in their own way.
Oh and this is Ozwald here. Another great video Chaser!
Always nice to see someone have an open mind with the Werehog, great video!
I highly recommend checking out the DLC for Sonic Unleashed if you want more Werehog since they take the good parts of the Werehog and flesh them out even more, both in terms of combat and platforming.
What DLC? And how did they do that?
8:15 nfw they gave sonic royal guard cancelling, they don't even have that on Yakuza
oooooh yeeeeeesssssssss
OOOOOOH YEEEEEEEESSSSSS
OOOOOOOOOOH--
i've never played Unleashed before.
(at least not on PS3 or Xbox360)
BUT I'M HERE FOR THIS VIDEO because it legit seems like something interesting, and there hasn't been much in-depth look at the Werehog as a whole. The last combo list video on YT i could find that shows off all Werehog moves is from around... over ten years ago, i believe.
So i'm excited to see your findings and hear your observations!
I think adding stylish combat to Sonic would blend pretty well all things considered. The werehog was a good attempt but it's clear that it wasn't the main focus and lacked the polish it needed to make it something I looked forward to like in DMC, on top of having overly long levels with too many annoying mechanics
Frontiers comes closer to an ideal Sonic beat em up, but Sonics limited move pool and RPG mechanics makes it hard to engage with it
If SEGA put more confidence in a combat system for a Sonic game, I think we could have something truly special on our hands
I thibk its not just that with frontiers combat but there is also the issue that it has cutscene combat syndrome
@@spiritpyros How so?
I personally don’t think sonic frontiers combat is very well thought out, I do wonder what you think of it however, great video.
I should have the video ready next week. There's quite a lot to talk about lol.
Also thanks for liking my video! I really appreciate it.
FINALLY SOMEONE ELSE SAID IT! I also thought platforming was the best part about Werehog and it should take more focus.
I never liked the combat either, but I guess I never gave it a fair shot, exactly like old you. Maybe I'll have to give it another try eventually.
I remember hearing about the werehog and as stupid as I thought it was I was like , I’m not going to right the game off because of that. When I first started I’m like it’s ok I don’t hate it but I love the day stages. However I’m very critical on myself and idk know if it was a regular or side mission but I couldn’t beat of the missions that’s in the place based off Africa. I was getting so pissed at myself I’m like I’m so fuckin worthless I can’t beat a damn kids game. After that I loved the werehog even though I didn’t have trouble with any other day stages. Hell I even beat eggman land first try. I’m replaying generations and first run of super stars but I’m excited to replay this game or start it soon with others. But I’m playing like 10 games rn lol
So basically the werehog can do the FADC from Street Fighter 4. I gotta play Sonic Unleashed again sometime.
I remember being so hyped for Unleashed before its release as a kid. Specifically for the werehog combat. I remember playing the nighttime levels almost as much as the daytime, honestly. While I wasn't a pro at the combat or anything, it was fun screwing around with all the moves. For a first attempt at a gamestyle like this, Sonic Team did a pretty decent job. You can tell they did their homework with it while still trying to make it its own thing and that's what I respect about it the most.
I always loved the Werehog stages. I love beat em ups and 3D platformers but he did run a little slow though.
Good to see People Give the Werehog a Chance as too really love the Combat you must Master the mechanics along with Enemies and Obstacles sections.
I've never understood the hate for the werehog, it's really in depth and is way better than most alternate playstyles from other sonic games
Realizing I could cancel the launcher with the shield is what opened my eyes to the system. It's a tall jump as well!
You are full of surprises, Mister ChaserTech. We all should keep an open mind and engage the world with a more positive attitude.
Me, personally, I prefer Wii's Unleashed Mode. The wii just made it feel more like an increase in power than the xbox version could and I genuinely enjoyed it.
If they brought back the combat gameplay from Sonic unleashed I would ignore it was knuckles having a combat gameplay but he runs as fast as he was in sonic adventure 2 and has ability to glide
I still really don’t like that people keep talking as if Sonic’s Werehog form is a separate character from Sonic. Call it a pet peeve if you will, but it still really annoys me.
I loved just unlocking all the moves and only leveling up damage just my a small margin so I could use all my moves In a scenario, its so fun to look at
A standalone werehog game would be so goated man I’m telling you
Sega PLEASE 🙏
The way people describe it was unplayable. But its not.
The Werehog needs to come back! I loved unleashed it was like you got a Sonic game and like a kids version of Yakuza.
You could've started the video with the werehog battle theme, missed opportunity
Only complaint for me is the claw attacks not staggering the big enemies despite doing less damage. You can't really Crowd Control without lining up enemies or using werewheel rush.
I picked this game up again (before returning it cuz tails missions killed it for me), and compared to the video game knowledge i had back when i was 12, werehog combat was super easy for me to get into after an experience of playing multiple character action games.
I think it got such a bad rap because daytime sonic's mechanics doesn't train a player to use something "situationally" compared to werehog's combo trees. Those stages are mostly based around reaction time. It really is a different game. Great video!
The chargeup moves are 1hko so there’s no point to not just use those over and over to get the fastest times.
Devil may cry does have jump cancel, guard flying and idk how to talk about that, but what about sonic unleashed? shield cancel, yes the shield cancel in this game like oml
Wait, Werehog is good?
🌎😨🔫🦔
Always has been.
If you want the Werehog to be faster, master using Unleashed Mode, that vault Spin Jump-esque move when jumping via the ledges & poles and Spinning Needle Attack. I have a video going up the Clock Tower and show just how fast you can make him.
I think the werehog stuff should've been a different character, and had more variety in music. My two biggest issues, that and the length of some of the missions is a bit annoying.
Oh you already did what I did when going up that Tower just like in my video, nevermind.
I'll be honest my only issue still Werehog was the crappy platforming.
Have you played the old God of War trilogy btw? The Werehog will make a *lot* more sense if you have.
🐺💜💜☯️🎃🇯🇵🌙🌓😆😊Yes....Wowzer Wowie and Zowie.... the biggest Werehog Sonic Fan Videogame 🎮 Ever!.... Uwu@/LOL....
Of course,u only need a second chance...
Sonic unleashed isn't exception in whats the point of mixing
Dmc 3...combo done from spiral, sword thos, Agnieszka and rudra flamenco forward and Agni and rudra charge:)
Heck Vergil can demolish enemies by Just one force Age combo and spaming swords durring dt
Even if you can do formations, involve bwolf and zoning woth forceage and Yamato or setuping:)
They wanted to make something like God of War because of how successful it was, when in reality, they should've copied Devil May Cry instead.